TPOP: Revisiting the 2014 NFL Draft

[teegre]

Here is my latest article for The Point of Pittsburgh. For those of you who were regulars at Steelers Fever, this will be a walk down memory lane. For everyone else... it is a peek into my mindset on the "Shazier vs. Williams" debate.

Revisiting the 2014 NFL Draft
by Tiger Rowan

On Sunday night, the Steelers drubbed the Chiefs 43-14… a score which is misleadingly closer than the game actually was. The game, and its important statistics, can be summed up as follows:




-Ben Roethlisberger threw a touchdown in a home game for the 40th straight game.
-In his first game back, Le’Veon Bell showed no rust, by leading the NFL with 144 rushing yards.
-The 22 points scored by the Steelers in the first quarter is a franchise record.
-Vince Williams showed why I felt that the Steelers did not need to draft Ryan Shazier.


Yes, you read that last part correctly. Leading up to the 2014 draft, the discussion among Steelers’ fans about whom the Steelers should draft was an interesting one. Obviously, there was the ubiquitous requiem for a cornerback (Darqueze Dennard, Kyle Fuller), but over at the now defunct Steelers Fever, the user poll predicted that the Steelers would draft C.J. Mosley (inside linebacker, Alabama). The rationale was that Pittsburgh’s defense is predicated on having a strong set of inside linebackers, and thus, an upgrade was needed.

Read more:
http://www.thepointofpittsburgh.com/revisiting-the-2014-nfl-draft-in-light-of-steelers-v-chiefs/

Feel free to pass it along to anyone who you think may find this interesting.

[Edman]

Ryan Shazier, as much as I want the guy to succeed, is becoming in danger of not even reaching his rookie contract and going somewhere else.

What's the point of being the fastest, most athletic guy around, when you're made of glass? He's a fantastic linebacker, but if his availability is all based on a coin flip, then there's no point.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Stephon Tuitt was the steal of that 2014 draft class. I used to think it was Martavis Bryant but :smoker:

and interestingly, two guys that we didn't draft that year (Ross Cockrell and Zach Mettenberger) are now on our roster.

[Mojouw]

I'll bite. Interesting perspective, but I have to spin it another way in my mind at least.

Williams is meant to replace Timmons - as a sideline to sideline thumper. If we assume that is true - who plays alongside Williams? Even if that answer was Timmons for 2 more seasons - you still need an ILB in the pipeline. So with the DB's off the board and ODB JR and Aaron Donald off the board - you kind of end up back at Shazier.

Maybe you don't if you go with the idea that Bucannon is a safety. But Bucannon's safety skill set replicates Mitchell's - who was the shiny new FA pick-up that off-season. Likely don't double down there. If they wanted to one has to figure Clinton-Dix would've been the pick.

That brings us back to ILB - where Bucannon has carved out a successful role as some sort of football seeking human missile. If that is the case, then the discussion is who has the better career at ILB between the two?

Right now, Bucannon is got Shazier on tackles and games played, but Shazier still has DPOY ceiling. Does Bucannon? I don't know - I watch very little of the Cards.

[teegre]

Stephon Tuitt was the steal of that 2014 draft class. I used to think it was Martavis Bryant but :smoker:

and interestingly, two guys that we didn't draft that year (Ross Cockrell and Zach Mettenberger) are now on our roster.

As I have averred since he was drafted: Tuitt will eventually be the best player on the Steelers defense.

That is no knock on Heyward; he is a hair away from being All Pro. It is an acknowledgement of just how good Tuitt can be (once he reaches his full potential).

Indeed. It is crazy that both Cockrell and Mettenbereger are on the team (after heavy rumors of the Steelers wanting to draft them). Life is strange.

[teegre]

I'll bite. Interesting perspective, but I have to spin it another way in my mind at least.

Williams is meant to replace Timmons - as a sideline to sideline thumper. If we assume that is true - who plays alongside Williams? Even if that answer was Timmons for 2 more seasons - you still need an ILB in the pipeline. So with the DB's off the board and ODB JR and Aaron Donald off the board - you kind of end up back at Shazier.

Maybe you don't if you go with the idea that Bucannon is a safety. But Bucannon's safety skill set replicates Mitchell's - who was the shiny new FA pick-up that off-season. Likely don't double down there. If they wanted to one has to figure Clinton-Dix would've been the pick.

That brings us back to ILB - where Bucannon has carved out a successful role as some sort of football seeking human missile. If that is the case, then the discussion is who has the better career at ILB between the two?

Right now, Bucannon is got Shazier on tackles and games played, but Shazier still has DPOY ceiling. Does Bucannon? I don't know - I watch very little of the Cards.

Good counterpoints.

Q: Who plays beside Williams?
A: Timmons... for now. Assuming that Bucannon plays SS (while Mitchell starts at FS), the Steelers would have no need to draft Sean Davis; instead, they could draft an ILB (Nick Vigil, BJ Goodson, Nick Kwiatkoski). Or, considering how well Timmons still plays, they could draft an ILB in R1 or R2 in the 2017 draft.



(More to come)

[ALLD]

We could see how Donnie Shell's legs are and bring him in for a tryout.

[st33lersguy]

It should be noted that the guy everyone wanted was darqueze dennard who has barely even played in cinci so the draft is a crap shoot

[teegre]

Maybe you don't if you go with the idea that Bucannon is a safety. But Bucannon's safety skill set replicates Mitchell's - who was the shiny new FA pick-up that off-season. Likely don't double down there. If they wanted to one has to figure Clinton-Dix would've been the pick.

That brings us back to ILB - where Bucannon has carved out a successful role as some sort of football seeking human missile. If that is the case, then the discussion is who has the better career at ILB between the two?

Right now, Bucannon is got Shazier on tackles and games played, but Shazier still has DPOY ceiling. Does Bucannon? I don't know - I watch very little of the Cards.

Q: Bucannon at SS or ILB?
A: The beauty (in my mind) of Bucannon was that he could cover like a SS, but he could tackle like an ILB. IMO he was the perfect hybrid. Since they wanted Mitchell to play FS, it wouldn't be a problem of which one to play at SS.

Q: Who has had the better career?
A: Bucannon by a mile. He is considered by most coaches/NFL talking heads to be in the top 5 of all ILBs.

Q: Who has the higher ceiling?
A: Shazier has the potential to be better. We have seen flashes. To borrow from what I stated earlier: the beauty (in my mind) of Shazier is that he could tackle like an ILB, but he could cover like an SS. The difference being that Shazier is slightly bigger, and slightly faster... ergo, potentially slightly better.

SUMMATION:
Vince Williams and Déone Bucannon VS. Ryan Shazier and Sean Davis

IMO, the prior option has been far more productive.

[Mojouw]

Q: Bucannon at SS or ILB?
A: The beauty (in my mind) of Bucannon was that he could cover like a SS, but he could tackle like an ILB. IMO he was the perfect hybrid. Since they wanted Mitchell to play FS, it wouldn't be a problem of which one to play at SS.

Q: Who has had the better career?
A: Bucannon by a mile. He is considered by most coaches/NFL talking heads to be in the top 5 of all ILBs.

Q: Who has the higher ceiling?
A: Shazier has the potential to be better. We have seen flashes. To borrow from what I stated earlier: the beauty (in my mind) of Shazier is that he could tackle like an ILB, but he could cover like an SS. The difference being that Shazier is slightly bigger, and slightly faster... ergo, potentially slightly better.

SUMMATION:
Vince Williams and Déone Bucannon VS. Ryan Shazier and Sean Davis

IMO, the prior option has been far more productive.

Agreed - 100%. The latter option has a ceiling somewhere just south of the stratosphere however. But you no doubt could win a ton of NFL games with Williams and Bucannon.

[teegre]

Agreed - 100%. The latter option has a ceiling somewhere just south of the stratosphere however. But you no doubt could win a ton of NFL games with Williams and Bucannon.

Exactly.

Another way way of describing the two aforementioned options are:

Very good, very reliable, very consistent VS. an ambiguous location somewhere between IR and All Pro

[teegre]

It should be noted that the guy everyone wanted was darqueze dennard who has barely even played in cinci so the draft is a crap shoot

What was interesting about the Steelers Fever poll was that I was CERTAIN that Dennard would be the overwhelming pick. Then... after three days of discussion, the consensus pick was Mosley.

[Dwinsgames]

It should be noted that the guy everyone wanted was darqueze dennard who has barely even played in cinci so the draft is a crap shoot


I was never a fan , had the same fear with Dennard as I did this year with Apple .. grabfest penalty magnate , time will tell

[Born2Steel]

Most Steelers fans love LBs over DBs overall, and if given a choice, would draft the LB. Even the 70's dynasty team is remembered more for the LBs than for the DBs. Just talking in general. When it came down to taking Mosley or Dennard, it was Mosley that was the emotional, as well as the correct(hind sight) selection. We just love us some LBs.

[Mojouw]

I don't know if Mosley was ever "the correct pick". I remember a mic'd up (remember that SNF or MNF broadcasting gimmick?) game years ago where Ray Rice told Farrior he was the weak link and they were going to be coming at him in the passing game all night. And, at that time, Farrior was the weak link in coverage. Steelers won anyways because I refuse to ever acknowledge a loss to the Ravens and the Steelers teams of that era were pretty darn good.

Then I remember a game against the current Ravens and, to be fair, it may have been Mosley's rookie year, but the Steelers and L. Bell went after Mosley in coverage over and over again. Just beat him like a drum.

What's my point? You don't draft 2 down linebackers in the first round in a pass first, second, and last league.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I don't know that anyone can say that Mosley was the "correct pick". I've read a lot of grumbling about him from Baltimore fans. He had a really good rookie season but hasn't really gotten any better since then.

It's pretty obvious that Shazier has more physical skills but he just can't seem to stay healthy.

[pczach]

Nice read and good reasoning teeg.

I just think that you can't get too excited about one game by Vince Williams. He played very well against KC...no doubt.

The problem is that he will always look good playing around the line of scrimmage and reading plays and reacting to make tackles. He is not gifted enough physically to hold up in pass defense. He will be the LB that will be the target of potential mismatches just as Farrior was in the scenario mentioned above. The longer Williams plays, the bigger the book on his weaknesses and how to attack him. He is not in the class of Shazier from a pure talent standpoint, and I don't believe his ceiling is as high as you do and I never have.

I love his heart. I love his passion. I love how hard he plays the game. I just believe that the only way he can be a player that thrives is if the surrounding cast is so strong that he can be used in very specific roles with this team. I believe he is limited as a player because of his lack of athleticism and speed.

He reminds me of a smaller, less talented Rey Maualuga. More of a thumper that can be exposed in coverage if the surrounding cast isn't strong enough.

As for the poll at Steelers Fever, I thought we voted for who we believed the Steelers would take....not who we thought they should take. I wanted Dennard, but I think I voted for Mosely because I thought that's who the Steelers would take with that pick based on the needs of the team, who I thought would be available, and the talent of the player.

We were all a little surprised by the pick because we all knew how much they needed help in the secondary, and Shazier wasn't really on our radar as a player the team was interested in.

I hope you're right about Williams as a player. He may be the replacement for Timmons because the only way he will displace Shazier is if Shazier's injuries continue to take him off the field constantly. The team has been making a concerted effort to get faster and more athletic at all defensive positions to cope with the speed of offenses and the growing role of the passing game and the importance of coverage skills and playing sideline to sideline. They have been building the entire defense with that philosophy, and Williams just doesn't fit the mold and the vision of what they want the defense to look like.

We shall see. I hope he shows he is capable of much more than I think he is.

[teegre]

Nice read and good reasoning teeg.

I just think that you can't get too excited about one game by Vince Williams. He played very well against KC...no doubt.

The problem is that he will always look good playing around the line of scrimmage and reading plays and reacting to make tackles. He is not gifted enough physically to hold up in pass defense. He will be the LB that will be the target of potential mismatches just as Farrior was in the scenario mentioned above. The longer Williams plays, the bigger the book on his weaknesses and how to attack him. He is not in the class of Shazier from a pure talent standpoint, and I don't believe his ceiling is as high as you do and I never have.

I love his heart. I love his passion. I love how hard he plays the game. I just believe that the only way he can be a player that thrives is if the surrounding cast is so strong that he can be used in very specific roles with this team. I believe he is limited as a player because of his lack of athleticism and speed.

He reminds me of a smaller, less talented Rey Maualuga. More of a thumper that can be exposed in coverage if the surrounding cast isn't strong enough.

As for the poll at Steelers Fever, I thought we voted for who we believed the Steelers would take....not who we thought they should take. I wanted Dennard, but I think I voted for Mosely because I thought that's who the Steelers would take with that pick based on the needs of the team, who I thought would be available, and the talent of the player.

We were all a little surprised by the pick because we all knew how much they needed help in the secondary, and Shazier wasn't really on our radar as a player the team was interested in.

I hope you're right about Williams as a player. He may be the replacement for Timmons because the only way he will displace Shazier is if Shazier's injuries continue to take him off the field constantly. The team has been making a concerted effort to get faster and more athletic at all defensive positions to cope with the speed of offenses and the growing role of the passing game and the importance of coverage skills and playing sideline to sideline. They have been building the entire defense with that philosophy, and Williams just doesn't fit the mold and the vision of what they want the defense to look like.

We shall see. I hope he shows he is capable of much more than I think he is.

Great post.

S-FEVER POLL:
You know... I don't recall whether it was who we "think" will be drafted or who "should" be drafted. I do remember quite a bit (2-3 days) of discussion, and being shocked that Mosley was the overwhelming choice.

Regardless, we all but nailed it.

And, Yes, Ozzie Newsome was (once again) reading our posts. :rofl2:

WILLIAMS:
There is no denying that Shazier is on another level. But, I equate Williams with Hines Ward: not the most athletic, not the fastest, but he gets the job done.

Likewise, I readily admit that Williams is a liability in coverage. Collinsworth even mentioned that Williams is at his best on 7-on-7 drills (i.e. an inside the box linebacker). That said, Williams always seems to be in the right place, despite neither being fast nor good in coverage. He's one of those players who seems to be a step ahead of everyone else (he reads & diagnoses plays quickly), and in turn, he's already moving towards the ball carrier before that player even has the ball.

Lastly, it's not simply just "Shazier vs. Williams" (Shazier wins that debate).

It's "Shazier AND Davis vs. Williams AND Bucannon"... and, Bucannon is already a home run. I hope that Davis is, too... but, as of right now, Bucannon is the far superior player.

[Mojouw]

Great post.

S-FEVER POLL:
You know... I don't recall whether it was who we "think" will be drafted or who "should" be drafted. I do remember quite a bit (2-3 days) of discussion, and being shocked that Mosley was the overwhelming choice.

Regardless, we all but nailed it.

And, Yes, Ozzie Newsome was (once again) reading our posts. :rofl2:

WILLIAMS:
There is no denying that Shazier is on another level. But, I equate Williams with Hines Ward: not the most athletic, not the fastest, but he gets the job done.

Likewise, I readily admit that Williams is a liability in coverage. Collinsworth even mentioned that Williams is at his best on 7-on-7 drills (i.e. an inside the box linebacker). That said, Williams always seems to be in the right place, despite neither being fast nor good in coverage. He's one of those players who seems to be a step ahead of everyone else (he reads & diagnoses plays quickly), and in turn, he's already moving towards the ball carrier before that player even has the ball.

Lastly, it's not simply just "Shazier vs. Williams" (Shazier wins that debate).

It's "Shazier AND Davis vs. Williams AND Bucannon"... and, Bucannon is already a home run. I hope that Davis is, too... but, as of right now, Bucannon is the far superior player.

And Shazier has the San Francisco game, the playoff against the Bengals, and isolated healthy flashes that prove he is superior to Williams. I am a Shazier believer and unabashed apologist but he has Bob Sandets disease at this point. I liked Kendrell Bell too. Thought he was the next great linebacker.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pczach]

Great post.

S-FEVER POLL:
You know... I don't recall whether it was who we "think" will be drafted or who "should" be drafted. I do remember quite a bit (2-3 days) of discussion, and being shocked that Mosley was the overwhelming choice.

Regardless, we all but nailed it.

And, Yes, Ozzie Newsome was (once again) reading our posts. :rofl2:

WILLIAMS:
There is no denying that Shazier is on another level. But, I equate Williams with Hines Ward: not the most athletic, not the fastest, but he gets the job done.

Likewise, I readily admit that Williams is a liability in coverage. Collinsworth even mentioned that Williams is at his best on 7-on-7 drills (i.e. an inside the box linebacker). That said, Williams always seems to be in the right place, despite neither being fast nor good in coverage. He's one of those players who seems to be a step ahead of everyone else (he reads & diagnoses plays quickly), and in turn, he's already moving towards the ball carrier before that player even has the ball.

Lastly, it's not simply just "Shazier vs. Williams" (Shazier wins that debate).

It's "Shazier AND Davis vs. Williams AND Bucannon"... and, Bucannon is already a home run. I hope that Davis is, too... but, as of right now, Bucannon is the far superior player.


First of all, I think that Williams can be a starter. He has really good instincts and will make plays on the field. I just think that he will be the guy that plays the position that they will be looking to upgrade in the draft every year. But I do think he can be an effective player and have good games and some bad games depending on the game plan of the opposing offense.

As for Davis vs Bucannon, of course Bucannon is a better player right now. He is playing in a system as the versatile player that he is. They move him around, and he plays multiple positons on the field as he is moved all over the field. He plays a position that was designed for him.

Davis, on the other hand, is playing out of position in his rookie year. He is not going to be a CB in the NFL in my estimation. I think he is going to be a safety, but due to the injuries and current personnel, he has been forced into playing CB. It is not playing to his strengths, and he is inexperienced. I want to give him more time before I cast judgement on the type of player he is or can become.

By the way, Ozzie Newsome must be one of our fellow members here who has been banned because he gets frustrated at his inability to sway our opinion on certain subjects....but I know he's still visiting and reading posts to help make selections in the draft! :chuckle:

Either that or we have a much higher opinion of our football knowledge than what the reality is. The Ravens did have a horrible year last year. Maybe we are responsible? :lol:

[teegre]

@mojouw
@pczach

Good posts.

Just so so that we are clear, I am in no way giving up on Sean Davis. I hope that my posts did not convey that message (the written word can misconstrue meaning, at times). My entire point is that if this year is the year for a strong push for #7... then it sure would be nice to have a SS like Bucannon on the roster.

For 2016, I would much prefer to have a very good Williams and a well established Bucannon.... than a "potentially" amazing Shazier and a rookie.

For 2017, I might be convinced that Shazier and Davis is actually the better option (I actually hope that they are)... but, that would require a) Shazier staying healthy, and b) Davis playing pretty darn well (the bar has been set fairly high by Bucannon).


Lastly...

(Ozzie cannot read anything written inside of parentheses.) :lol:

[pczach]

@mojouw
@pczach

Good posts.

Just so so that we are clear, I am in no way giving up on Sean Davis. I hope that my posts did not convey that message (the written word can misconstrue meaning, at times). My entire point is that if this year is the year for a strong push for #7... then it sure would be nice to have a SS like Bucannon on the roster.

For 2016, I would much prefer to have a very good Williams and a well established Bucannon.... than a "potentially" amazing Shazier and a rookie.

For 2017, I might be convinced that Shazier and Davis is actually the better option (I actually hope that they are)... but, that would require a) Shazier staying healthy, and b) Davis playing pretty darn well (the bar has been set fairly high by Bucannon).


Lastly...

(Ozzie cannot read anything written inside of parentheses.) :lol:


Remember, Bucannon was not playing well last year early. Everyone needs to learn the defense, learn how to prepare like a pro, work on technique to defeat NFL talent, and get the instincts on a professional level that only comes with reps, experience, and studying film.

The Sean Davis you see right now will most likely not resemble the Sean Davis you see near the end of the regular season. He's going to learn a lot, and hopefully be able to be put into a role in the defense that fits his skillset to maximize his impact. Burns was on the field most of last game. Gilbert has started seeing the field. Golson may be back around midseason. Davis' role may change and can go from a pure cover guy to a player that is able to play more of a Bucannon-type role where he is disguised pre-snap, but can play in the box, blitz, or drop into coverage to be more of a hybrid/wildcard. That's when we'll start to see what he's capable of.

A healthy Shazier and a seasoned Davis going into the playoffs could turn into something that we will see making impactful plays for the next decade.

I also think the Ravens need to prioritize getting a fullback, a long snapper, and a punter early in next years draft. ( :flipoff: Ozzie! )

[steelreserve]

Q: Who has the higher ceiling?
A: Shazier has the potential to be better. We have seen flashes. To borrow from what I stated earlier: the beauty (in my mind) of Shazier is that he could tackle like an ILB, but he could cover like an SS. The difference being that Shazier is slightly bigger, and slightly faster... ergo, potentially slightly better.

The problem with that is Shazier can't cover like a SS. Unless you mean a safety who also can't cover the running back or tight end.

Shazier is fast, but that has not translated to pass defense as far as I've seen. Either he can't cover the TE or we won't use him that way for some reason. He's been strictly an aggression/mobility player, and underneath coverage against the kinds of players he's theoretically supposed to excel at covering has remained a problem. Is he still good? Of course. But I just haven't seen him do much, if anything, in that role.

Side question: Was/is there any reason in particular that Shazier is suited only to play ILB in an NFL 3-4 defense, and not OLB? If I remember, he came into the league as a very good 3-4 OLB, but from the second we drafted him we insisted he would be an ILB only. If Timmons and Williams are a solid combo for us on the inside, might that not be a way to help fix our OLB woes? I am asking this because I honestly don't know. He certainly isn't lacking in size or speed, so ... (???)

[Mojouw]

I think he is not able to play on the outside because he weighs 229 pounds.

[tube517]

He plays OLB once in a while, not sure which formations.

[Born2Steel]

We talked some about Su'a Cravens before the last draft too. He's making some noise as a rookie hybrid also. Might be a position that racks up stats playing the SS/ILB hybrid role. The concept makes sense from a 'where is he going to be' standpoint. Has to be big enough to endure thumping, as well as fast enough to play man coverage. Rare.

[steelreserve]

I think he is not able to play on the outside because he weighs 229 pounds.

Wasn't he more like 240, 250 when he came into the league?

[teegre]

Remember, Bucannon was not playing well last year early. Everyone needs to learn the defense, learn how to prepare like a pro, work on technique to defeat NFL talent, and get the instincts on a professional level that only comes with reps, experience, and studying film.

The Sean Davis you see right now will most likely not resemble the Sean Davis you see near the end of the regular season. He's going to learn a lot, and hopefully be able to be put into a role in the defense that fits his skillset to maximize his impact. Burns was on the field most of last game. Gilbert has started seeing the field. Golson may be back around midseason. Davis' role may change and can go from a pure cover guy to a player that is able to play more of a Bucannon-type role where he is disguised pre-snap, but can play in the box, blitz, or drop into coverage to be more of a hybrid/wildcard. That's when we'll start to see what he's capable of.

A healthy Shazier and a seasoned Davis going into the playoffs could turn into something that we will see making impactful plays for the next decade.

I also think the Ravens need to prioritize getting a fullback, a long snapper, and a punter early in next years draft. ( :flipoff: Ozzie! )

Let's think about it a different way... As of right now, Bucannon and Shazier have similar stats: the same number of sacks, basically the same number of tackles, and Shazier has one more INT, but Bucannon has a pick-six. Essentially, they are a wash in the world of tackles and splash plays.

Now... compare Williams and Davis. Williams is far better.

So, as far as winning right now/this season, I'd rather have Williams/Bucannon (than Shazier/Davis). Again, I hope that Davis is the spark that turns this secondary around, while Shazier simultaneously stays healthy. But, one is a bird in the hand... the other is two in the bush.

I'm thinking Justin Vogel, P, Miami in R1. (Suck it, Ozzie.)

[teegre]

The problem with that is Shazier can't cover like a SS. Unless you mean a safety who also can't cover the running back or tight end.

Shazier is fast, but that has not translated to pass defense as far as I've seen. Either he can't cover the TE or we won't use him that way for some reason. He's been strictly an aggression/mobility player, and underneath coverage against the kinds of players he's theoretically supposed to excel at covering has remained a problem. Is he still good? Of course. But I just haven't seen him do much, if anything, in that role.

Side question: Was/is there any reason in particular that Shazier is suited only to play ILB in an NFL 3-4 defense, and not OLB? If I remember, he came into the league as a very good 3-4 OLB, but from the second we drafted him we insisted he would be an ILB only. If Timmons and Williams are a solid combo for us on the inside, might that not be a way to help fix our OLB woes? I am asking this because I honestly don't know. He certainly isn't lacking in size or speed, so ... (???)

True, he's no Derrick Brooks. That said, he did hold Jordan Reed (the best TE not named Gronk) to a measly 64 yards. It's not great, but it's not bad... especially that pass that he defended in the end-zone.

In college, Shazier was a 4-3 OLB, which is more like a 3-4 ILB (than a 3-4 OLB). But, I get your point: get your best four OLBs on the field at the same time: Timmons, Shazier, Williams, and "name".

[pczach]

Let's think about it a different way... As of right now, Bucannon and Shazier have similar stats: the same number of sacks, basically the same number of tackles, and Shazier has one more INT, but Bucannon has a pick-six. Essentially, they are a wash in the world of tackles and splash plays.

Now... compare Williams and Davis. Williams is far better.

So, as far as winning right now/this season, I'd rather have Williams/Bucannon (than Shazier/Davis). Again, I hope that Davis is the spark that turns this secondary around, while Shazier simultaneously stays healthy. But, one is a bird in the hand... the other is two in the bush.

I'm thinking Justin Vogel, P, Miami in R1. (Suck it, Ozzie.)


I totally get what you are saying. Bucannon is a star, and Williams is a starter worthy player. While they may be better now, and I'm still not convinced of that, I project the possibility of higher level play by Shazier and Davis before this season ends....and carries on for years.

The quest for #7 is underway, and I expect a very deep run this year withthe ultimate goal being attainable.

We'll see it unfold together and keep discussing this as we go.

[teegre]

I totally get what you are saying. Bucannon is a star, and Williams is a starter worthy player. While they may be better now, and I'm still not convinced of that, I project the possibility of higher level play by Shazier and Davis before this season ends....and carries on for years.

The quest for #7 is underway, and I expect a very deep run this year withthe ultimate goal being attainable.

We'll see it unfold together and keep discussing this as we go.

In my heart of hearts, I hope that you are right (and I am wrong).

Seriously.

[Rotorhead]

I am thinking or hoping that between Shazier and Davis, we will have our RB out of the BF and athletic TE issue resolved. Davis is a good tackler and cover guy. Shazier is fast enough to stay with WR's. Get their skills up a little with some experience and add in Burns, Gilbert, Golson and Mitchell + our DL and we are 1 OLB (I think Dupree will be very good) away from a top 5 def. I understand the Williams/Bucannon argument, but I guess I like the ceiling better than the availability. That said, we have Williams, so having Timmons/Williams, Shazier and Davis is better than most teams looking into the future. I am excited for the next couple years (what I think our SB window is) where will have a legit chance of multiple rings.

[pczach]

In my heart of hearts, I hope that you are right (and I am wrong).

Seriously.


There is no doubt we are both hoping for the same outcome! Chest Bump

[teegre]

I'm not sure where to put this...

The Steelers trade their R5 pick in the 2016 draft for Brandon Boykin. In that draft, the Steelers were very interested in hybrid ILB/SS Jatavis Brown. But, they did not have a R5 pick; so, they had to wait until R6. At the end of R5, Brown goes to the Chargers. About round later, the Steelers take a similar player: Travis Freeney.

Last night, Jatavis Brown had a sack and a forced fumble on back-to-back plays (plus, he is generally around the ball quite a bit). Whereas, Freeney... well... hmmm.

I know now hindsight is 20/20, but it sucks that a player that the Steelers had targeted turns out to be a gem (and the guy second on the list sucks). It reminds me of the year that Cowher wanted to draft Devin Hester, but had to settle for the second-best kick-returner: Willie Reid.

[Mojouw]

I'm not sure where to put this...

The Steelers trade their R5 pick in the 2016 draft for Brandon Boykin. In that draft, the Steelers were very interested in hybrid ILB/SS Jatavis Brown. But, they did not have a R5 pick; so, they had to wait until R6. At the end of R5, Brown goes to the Chargers. About round later, the Steelers take a similar player: Travis Freeney.

Last night, Jatavis Brown had a sack and a forced fumble on back-to-back plays (plus, he is generally around the ball quite a bit). Whereas, Freeney... well... hmmm.

I know now hindsight is 20/20, but it sucks that a player that the Steelers had targeted turns out to be a gem (and the guy second on the list sucks). It reminds me of the year that Cowher wanted to draft Devin Hester, but had to settle for the second-best kick-returner: Willie Reid.

Are we sure that Freeney sucks? Or is it more that his injury made it hard for him to "get on a moving train" or whatever Tomlinism you prefer? But, yeah I get where you are going! Boykin. Man that just was a weird thing all the way around. Anyone else think there was a health issue for far longer than we knew? I mean Boykin denied it, then went on IR...

[teegre]

Are we sure that Freeney sucks? Or is it more that his injury made it hard for him to "get on a moving train" or whatever Tomlinism you prefer? But, yeah I get where you are going! Boykin. Man that just was a weird thing all the way around. Anyone else think there was a health issue for far longer than we knew? I mean Boykin denied it, then went on IR...

First of all, Boykin was the love child of Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders. If he had only been allowed to start, the Steelers not only would have won the SuperBowl, they would have cured cancer.

Joking and hyperbole aside, the weirdness of that situation was the initial cut... and watching Jatavis Brown last night was the salt.

[Mojouw]

First of all, Boykin was the love child of Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders. If he had only been allowed to start, the Steelers not only would have won the SuperBowl, they would have cured cancer.

Joking and hyperbole aside, the weirdness of that situation was the initial cut... and watching Jatavis Brown last night was the salt.

Gotta agree with that one. Sounds like we need limes and tequila to sort this all out.

I still don't really understand what their plan is for Freeney. Let's say he gets healthy and proves that he can play in the NFL prior to the start of the 2017 regular season. For purposes of this hypothetical, Shazier and Williams are the starting ILB. Does he slot in next to Shazier at ILB and force Williams to the bench/primary back-up role? That would be a pretty light set of inside backers. Does he simply get a hat on gameday as a special teamer and guy most likely to be able to assume Shazier's role in the defense when Shazier gets hurt? Does he get a hat on gameday to play some sort of "big" nickel role?

I still like the pick, especially that late in the draft. I will always be a fan of gambling on guys with good measurables. But I must confess I'm not certain I see where this is going...And to be totally fair, the biggest reason I am confused is that Golden and Williams have shown that their ceiling as starters is far far higher than thought.

[steelreserve]

Gotta agree with that one. Sounds like we need limes and tequila to sort this all out.

I still don't really understand what their plan is for Freeney. Let's say he gets healthy and proves that he can play in the NFL prior to the start of the 2017 regular season. For purposes of this hypothetical, Shazier and Williams are the starting ILB. Does he slot in next to Shazier at ILB and force Williams to the bench/primary back-up role? That would be a pretty light set of inside backers. Does he simply get a hat on gameday as a special teamer and guy most likely to be able to assume Shazier's role in the defense when Shazier gets hurt? Does he get a hat on gameday to play some sort of "big" nickel role?

I still like the pick, especially that late in the draft. I will always be a fan of gambling on guys with good measurables. But I must confess I'm not certain I see where this is going...And to be totally fair, the biggest reason I am confused is that Golden and Williams have shown that their ceiling as starters is far far higher than thought.

Feeney strikes me as a pick to fill a special role, namely the linebacker who can actually cover a decent TE and prevent them from breaking the defense. So probably a situational OLB who drops into coverage a lot.

Mark my words, we'll keep Timmons around for another year or two, albeit at a much reduced rate. Not extending him this year was about getting the restructure money to finally clear out, and also making sure he hasn't hit the quick decline yet, which so far it appears he has not.

[Mojouw]

Feeney strikes me as a pick to fill a special role, namely the linebacker who can actually cover a decent TE and prevent them from breaking the defense. So probably a situational OLB who drops into coverage a lot.

Mark my words, we'll keep Timmons around for another year or two, albeit at a much reduced rate. Not extending him this year was about getting the restructure money to finally clear out, and also making sure he hasn't hit the quick decline yet, which so far it appears he has not.

That makes sense. Hope you are right about Timmons. He can still get it done.