Steelers' latest cornerback experiment: William Gay in slot, Artie Burns on the outside

[polamalubeast]

PITTSBURGH -- The Pittsburgh Steelers have invested heavily in the secondary the last few years and still appear to have depth issues.

Their third cornerback this preseason has been a safety, rookie Sean Davis. The Steelers would like to sign Keenan Lewis but have not because of his lingering groin/hip issues.

But with 15 days before the opener at Washington, the Steelers are experimenting with lineup changes in practice.

On Sunday, the team worked this group together, according to defensive coordinator Keith Butler: veteran William Gay in the slot, safety Robert Golden moving to inside linebacker (which he did at times last year in the nickel package), Davis at safety alongside Mike Mitchell and first-rounder Artie Burns on the outside alongside Ross Cockrell.


read more


http://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/19920/steelers-latest-cornerback-experiment-william-gay-in-the-slot-artie-burns-on-the-outside

[st33lersguy]

Is Burns even ready for the outside?

[polamalubeast]

Is Burns even ready for the outside?



The Steelers must at least try to see if Burns is ready.

[86WARD]

Is Burns even ready for the outside?

You don't know unless you throw him to the wolves...

[Steeldude]

Is Burns even ready for the outside?

It's the only position he can play. He would get eaten up in the slot.

IMO, this guy will be a journeyman/benchwarmer and then disappear. Hopefully I am wrong.

[ALLD]

They need to trade for a decent CB or change what they are doing because it isn't working.

[Method28]

I honestly would be all for Pitt moving up in the draft and taking a potential franchise cb. I would be ok with the price tag if its a top tier talent with lock down ability.

Something needs to be done here.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

[Dwinsgames]

typical write a kid off that was drafted in the first round that everyone in their brother proclaimed needed time before he could be penciled in as the starter but has tremendous athletic ability once he works out the the finer details of the pos....

we haven't even managed to get to week 1 and many are ready to throw in the towel on him ....

give the kid a break already , he is what they said he was .... he needs time give it to him and then see what we have

[polamalubeast]

They need to trade for a decent CB or change what they are doing because it isn't working.


Please,Burns has not played a game yet, too early to jump to conclusions!

[steelreserve]

typical write a kid off that was drafted in the first round that everyone in their brother proclaimed needed time before he could be penciled in as the starter but has tremendous athletic ability once he works out the the finer details of the pos....

we haven't even managed to get to week 1 and many are ready to throw in the towel on him ....

give the kid a break already , he is what they said he was .... he needs time give it to him and then see what we have


Please,Burns has not played a game yet, too early to jump to conclusions!


People are just frustrated by the fact that we drafted "raw talent, needs time" players with our first two picks (as well as our first pick last year), when we are supposedly in win-now mode and shouldn't be farting around with player development.

It was frustrating when we made the picks, and frustrating all over again when you watch it play out in games, even if we supposedly knew it was coming.

Then when you consider our track record of "coaching up" these talented-but-not-ready players ... it's not good, pretty much a complete whiff on every one of them so far. Combine that with our track record of developing DBs into reasonable players (not a single one since Ike Taylor) and you start to really worry whether this was a smart path for us to go down.

Meanwhile, a couple hours to the west ...


Mackensie Alexander proving to be a worthwhile 'handful' for Vikings

The ball has a way of finding Mackensie Alexander, but he wasn’t sure who he needed to give it to after the game.

As the Vikings rookie asked for an equipment manager, another team staffer offered to hold his second preseason interception from Sunday’s win over the San Diego Chargers. The staffer joked: ‘Are you sure you trust me? You know, Harrison [Smith] says you still don’t have one [interception] yet.’

http://www.startribune.com/mackensie-alexander-proving-to-be-a-worthwhile-handful-for-vikings/391596181/

[polamalubeast]

People are just frustrated by the fact that we drafted "raw talent, needs time" players with our first two picks (as well as our first pick last year), when we are supposedly in win-now mode and shouldn't be farting around with player development.

It was frustrating when we made the picks, and frustrating all over again when you watch it play out in games, even if we supposedly knew it was coming.

Then when you consider our track record of "coaching up" these talented-but-not-ready players ... it's not good, pretty much a complete whiff on every one of them so far. Combine that with our track record of developing DBs into reasonable players (not a single one since Ike Taylor) and you start to really worry whether this was a smart path for us to go down.

Meanwhile, a couple hours to the west ...

Of course, everyone knew that Burns was going to be injured during the training camp ...

[Dwinsgames]

I was all for Mackenzie Alexander said so here , and I kept hearing but he has not had any ints ..... question his ball skills ,his size ... blah blah blah ...

in college he went untested for the most part , in the nfl he is being tested , he is also passing that test and making teams pay ..

90% here wanted Burns in round 2 and most of that 90% did not believe he would make it to us in round 2 apparently the team did not feel like it either and they pulled the trigger earlier ...

I refuse to give up on a kid I did not expect to make much of a splash as a rookie when he simply has not made much of a splash after 3 preseason games ... its foolish in my opinion

as for we have not been able to develop any corner since Ike ... what about William Gay ?

sure we have had a rough go at it but lets face it we have not exactly threw many quality picks at the pos either ..

[BigNastyDefense]

I think Burns can be really good. He's a boundary cornerback, he was drafted to specifically play on the outside, that's his skill set so of course they aren't going to try him in the slot - he's not a slot corner, at all.

Let him develop. Polamalu looked completely lost his rookie year. People were calling him a bust and all that, and he turned out to become a guy who's going to be a first ballot Hall of Fame member. I'm not saying Burns is going to be Polamalu, I'm just saying give him at least a season to get adjusted to the NFL, because it is a different game than college football.

[tube517]

I think what his frustrating to me, at least, it seems like every "highest" pick CB we have gotten lately gets hurt or has nagging injuries.

Curtis Brown, Senquez Golson, now Burns. I know injuries occur and are out of our control but that's what frustrates me.

Hopefully, Burns doesn't get "toasted"

[steelreserve]

Just to be clear: I don't think anyone's saying "omg Burns is a bust!" or anything. Or writing him off because of injury. Or hoping he fails so we can go I-told-you-so while the secondary continues to suck and lose games for us, since that's what we all want.

No, the point is that it was pretty much understood that he was unlikely to be NFL-ready in the near future, and there were other players available who were. Of course you hope it turns out for the best, but it looked like a stupid pick then and it looks like a stupid pick now.

[Dwinsgames]

the point is that it was pretty much understood that he was unlikely to be NFL-ready in the near future, and there were other players available who were. Of course you hope it turns out for the best, but it looked like a stupid pick then and it looks like a stupid pick now.



the bold , I get it I really do ..

again if it was me making the pick and nobody in my ear I would have taken Alexander ( and some would have bitched about it maybe a lot of people ? )

I think where the issue comes into play is scouts and pos coaches looking at it differently than you and me .. they look beyond who is most ready some times and look more at how the player projects down the road ..
that can work out two ways , he could turn out as good or better than expected ...or he could fall short leaving you with a year or two in waiting for something that never quite happens all the while you are not readdressing the solution to the problem because your banking on that return on investment from said player ..

which way will this fall is anyone's guess but I think we all agree Burns has the physical tools to develop ( the things you cant teach ) now its a matter of teaching ( and him being able to apply it ) how long will it take ? I dont know but I do know he is only as raw as he is because he was a 2 sport star and missed most all of his college camp practices due to track and still managed to be the starter and a pretty good one ... it may only take him a few months it may take all year I just do not know

[awe1028]

The problem with the Artie Burns pick is that the Steelers prioritized selecting a CB instead of addressing the more important pass rush. Noah Spence widely regarded as the best pass rushing OLB in the draft fell into their laps and they dropped the ball when they selected Burns. This is especially true when you realize that given where Pittsburgh usually picks the Steelers won't often get a chance at a pass rushing OLB talent like Spence. Imagine the Steelers with both Hargrave and Spence on the defense the pass rush would be vastly improved which in turn would have made the secondary better.

This is not to say Burns will not be a good player. It is just too early to determine. The point is that even if Burns works out, not fixing the pass rush was more important than the secondary and the Steelers erred big time when they passed over Spence.

[BigNastyDefense]

Maybe they'd didn't take Spence because he got booted from Ohio State for numerous failed drug tests and they felt that with the issues between Bryant and Bell, they didn't want to take him there and have him end up with the same issues.

Also, last year the pass rush wasn't a problem. The Steelers finished with I think the second most sacks in a season in team history. Yeah, Spence would have been a nice pick, I wouldn't have been mad about it. I think he's a hell of a talent who will likely be a top seven sack guy for the majority of his career.

But if you look at the secondary in the draft, I don't think it was looking anywhere near talented enough to do well - even with a pass rush improved from last season with the addition of Spence. They decided to go secondary in the first round for the first time in decades. They decided that was where they were worst and decided to even double down by going safety in the second round.

I'll trust the front office.

[awe1028]

Maybe they'd didn't take Spence because he got booted from Ohio State for numerous failed drug tests and they felt that with the issues between Bryant and Bell, they didn't want to take him there and have him end up with the same issues.

Also, last year the pass rush wasn't a problem. The Steelers finished with I think the second most sacks in a season in team history. Yeah, Spence would have been a nice pick, I wouldn't have been mad about it. I think he's a hell of a talent who will likely be a top seven sack guy for the majority of his career.

But if you look at the secondary in the draft, I don't think it was looking anywhere near talented enough to do well - even with a pass rush improved from last season with the addition of Spence. They decided to go secondary in the first round for the first time in decades. They decided that was where they were worst and decided to even double down by going safety in the second round.

I'll trust the front office.

You are probably right that the reason the FO did not take Spence because of his off field issues. However when you are a team like Pittsburgh that's always contending and therefore picking at the back end of the draft the only way a talent like Spence is going to fall to you is if there are extraneous circumstances such as injury or as in the case of Spence concerns about drugs. Therefore to get that type of talent you have to take risks

Last year's pass rush did not improve, I must respectfully disagree. Yes the team had more sacks however that was at the expense of "selling out" which of course made the secondary even more vulnerable. An effective pass rush is one in which you can get effective pressure by sending the base players in the case of Pittsburgh's 3 4 defense that usually comes from the OLBs I think you will agree that Pittsburgh's OLBs are below average in that department

Another problem with picking Burns at the expense of Spence is that even if Burns eventually turns into a solid CB he is so raw that he won't be able to help the team significantly right now. The FO recognizes that there is a sense of urgency given Big Ben's age Kevin Colbert specifically stated as such so waiting for Burns to develop is means that you are stuck with a still mediocre pass rush and still mediocre secondary since Burns can't help significantly right now. Spence would have at least improved the pass rush so the only problem with the team would be the secondary.

[Craic]

typical write a kid off that was drafted in the first round that everyone in their brother proclaimed needed time before he could be penciled in as the starter but has tremendous athletic ability once he works out the the finer details of the pos....

we haven't even managed to get to week 1 and many are ready to throw in the towel on him ....

give the kid a break already , he is what they said he was .... he needs time give it to him and then see what we have

This. So much, this.


he is what they said he was

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWmQbk5h86w
:chuckle:

[Rotorhead]

I think we probably should give it a year or two before we go deciding we should have picked Spence over Burns, maybe let them play a few games? Where is your argument if Spence gets suspended multiple times and Burns turns out to be Ike with hands? And Tuitt improved greatly last season, and is expected to be even better this season, add in Hargrave and our DL pass rush is improved over last season. Yeah we could use some upgrades to our OLB's, but I think Dupree will have a much improved 2nd season with 10+ sacks. Also, Cockrell is playing much better per all the camp reports I have read, Davis is going to be good and Mitchell is healthy as far as we know. Golden is coming into his own at safety which allows Davis to grow into his role. Our Def will be much improved this season.

[awe1028]

typical write a kid off that was drafted in the first round that everyone in their brother proclaimed needed time before he could be penciled in as the starter but has tremendous athletic ability once he works out the the finer details of the pos....

we haven't even managed to get to week 1 and many are ready to throw in the towel on him ....

give the kid a break already , he is what they said he was .... he needs time give it to him and then see what we have

No one is writing him off. Or maybe I should say No one should be writing him off. Certainly anyone with common sense knows that it is way too early to proclaim him a bust.

The bolded is the important point. Given Ben's age the Steelers needed to focus on players that could contribute immediately. As the bolded states it was well known that Burns was not going to do that so he was not the right pick

Combined with the fact that Spence was top 10 type talent at a position of need it made even more sense to draft Spence. The complaint at least from my perspective is not that Burns is not talented enough as I said it is too early to know but that he is too raw to contribute now and they had a top 10 talent at a position of need who contribute NOW.

[BlackAndGold]

The team gave Marcus Peters a 2nd round grade(Source: Jim Wexell) because he was kicked off his team. They weren't touching Spence, who wasn't just dismissed by Ohio State, but was banned from the whole BIG 10.

[polamalubeast]

771759814099603457

[Dwinsgames]

Spence was top 10 type talent at a position of need it made even more sense to draft Spence. .

The fact we have a star RB who missed games due to drug related offense last season via suspension and will miss games yet again this year for failed drug testing and a WR who will miss 10 games this year for failed drug tests tells me you stay away from kids who cant stay away from the dope or at the very least are smart enough to not get caught ..

That is why Spence IMO was never in contention to be selected by the Steelers , they have enough problems

[86WARD]

But they bring Karlos Williams in for a look...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[awe1028]

[QUOTE=Secondaryconcerns;556452]The fact we have a star RB who missed games due to drug related offense last season via suspension and will miss games yet again this year for failed drug testing and a WR who will miss 10 games this year for failed drug tests tells me you stay away from kids who cant stay away from the dope or at the very least are smart enough to not get caught ..

That is why Spence IMO was never in contention to be selected by the Steelers , they have enough problems[/QUOTE

As I stated in my previous post I am not disagreeing with your reason as to why Pittsburgh did not take Spence. I think you are absolutely right. What I am saying is that the FO erred in not rolling the dice on a talent like Spence despite the risk.

If it turns out that he has a total melt down due to the drugs then the pass rush still is below average and you lose nothing If he gets his act together and pans out the Steelers with that offense and improved defense because of the pass rush he provides are legitimate Super Bowl favorites.

As it stands now while it is fair to consider Pittsburgh a Super bowl contender I would not call it a favorite because of the mediocre defense with its lack of a pass rush.

[st33lersguy]

I really liked what I saw from this guy who was considered raw in his first NFL game action. Even if it was against back-up guys very pleased especially considering he will only get better with experience

[Hawkman]

[QUOTE=Secondaryconcerns;556452]The fact we have a star RB who missed games due to drug related offense last season via suspension and will miss games yet again this year for failed drug testing and a WR who will miss 10 games this year for failed drug tests tells me you stay away from kids who cant stay away from the dope or at the very least are smart enough to not get caught ..

That is why Spence IMO was never in contention to be selected by the Steelers , they have enough problems[/QUOTE

As I stated in my previous post I am not disagreeing with your reason as to why Pittsburgh did not take Spence. I think you are absolutely right. What I am saying is that the FO erred in not rolling the dice on a talent like Spence despite the risk.

If it turns out that he has a total melt down due to the drugs then the pass rush still is below average and you lose nothing If he gets his act together and pans out the Steelers with that offense and improved defense because of the pass rush he provides are legitimate Super Bowl favorites.

As it stands now while it is fair to consider Pittsburgh a Super bowl contender I would not call it a favorite because of the mediocre defense with its lack of a pass rush.


Not really sure why you and others say we have a lack of pass rush, when we were third in sacks last year. Is it because it's not all coming from the edge?

[teegre]

Is it because it's not all coming from the edge?

Yes. Jarvis Jones puts essentially zero pressure on the QB. Imagine if someone like Greg Lloyd was over there... how great would this defense be.

(Make sense?)

[Dwinsgames]

But they bring Karlos Williams in for a look...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


probably as a favor to Vince for signing an extension ( free family visit ) no offer was made no report of money even being discussed ... but what do we know , only what they tell us ....

[Craic]

Yes. Jarvis Jones puts essentially zero pressure on the QB. Imagine if someone like Greg Lloyd was over there... how great would this defense be.

(Make sense?)

But would he get the same pressure? Remember, Lloyd was playing behind Ray Seals and on the other side of Greene for what was arguable his three best years of football. There's the chance that as the D Line improves, all our LBs improve as well. Obviously, I'm not going to say J Jones = Lloyd, but I also don't think its a mutually exclusive issue as well.

[Steeldude]

[QUOTE=awe1028;556459]


Not really sure why you and others say we have a lack of pass rush, when we were third in sacks last year. Is it because it's not all coming from the edge?

Because it was either a sack or the QB had time. There was no consistent pressure.

[awe1028]

Not really sure why you and others say we have a lack of pass rush, when we were third in sacks last year. Is it because it's not all coming from the edge?

I must respectfully disagree. The Steelers had increased sacks last season no question. However the sack total was "artificially" inflated due to the defense "selling out" to get those sacks. This in turn made the secondary more vulnerable which of course showed in the numbers.

A good pass rush is one in which you can get effective pressure in the base defense. In the case of Pittsburgh's 3 4 defense this comes primarily from the OLBs and we can all agree the pressure from Pittsburgh's OLBs is sub par.

[teegre]

But would he get the same pressure? Remember, Lloyd was playing behind Ray Seals and on the other side of Greene for what was arguable his three best years of football. There's the chance that as the D Line improves, all our LBs improve as well. Obviously, I'm not going to say J Jones = Lloyd, but I also don't think its a mutually exclusive issue as well.

Indeed, the play of the OLBs is improved by the play of the DEs. When teams had to double-team Ray Seals or Aaron Smith or Kimo von Oelhoffen or The Beard (etc.) the OLBs were often left against a single blocker.

And, I'd argue that Tuitt & Heyward are easily as good as any one of those DEs listed above. Thus, Jarvis Jones is often left against "only" a LT. The problem is that he can not beat that single blocker.

Heck, even Clark "Average" Haggans was able to occasionally beat that 1:1 blocking to create pressure.

[Craic]

Indeed, the play of the OLBs is improved by the play of the DEs. When teams had to double-team Ray Seals or Aaron Smith or Kimo von Oelhoffen or The Beard (etc.) the OLBs were often left against a single blocker.

And, I'd argue that Tuitt & Heyward are easily as good as any one of those DEs listed above. Thus, Jarvis Jones is often left against "only" a LT. The problem is that he can not beat that single blocker.

Heck, even Clark "Average" Haggans was able to occasionally beat that 1:1 blocking to create pressure.

Those are all good points. I'd throw in, however, that those other players, including Clark, played with three pretty good to very good Dlineman, with the NT often having to be double teamed and the outside guys eating up one or two lineman themselves. Without a solid NT (not necessarily what we had before, as the scheme has changed), but without a NT that needs to be doubleteamed, you leave one, sometimes two lineman open to eat up blitzes.

[Hawkman]

Those are all good points. I'd throw in, however, that those other players, including Clark, played with three pretty good to very good Dlineman, with the NT often having to be double teamed and the outside guys eating up one or two lineman themselves. Without a solid NT (not necessarily what we had before, as the scheme has changed), but without a NT that needs to be doubleteamed, you leave one, sometimes two lineman open to eat up blitzes.

...and there in lies the "original" beauty of the 3 4. I see Butler doing some really creative formations this year.

[hawaiiansteeler]

http://i.giphy.com/5kZtjttf9tedq.gif

[LloydWoodson]

"Steelers play corners at their natural positions: crazy right?" should be the thread title.