Ron Cook: It's Tomlin over Cowher as better disciplinarian

[polamalubeast]

Bill Cowher or Mike Tomlin? I’m giving Tomlin a slight edge as coach, although Cowher was good. I’m also giving Tomlin an edge as a disciplinarian. I say that knowing the Steelers will play this season without suspended Martavis Bryant and probably the first four games without suspended Le’Veon Bell.

No, I am not crazy.

There’s a growing perception in town that the Steelers have gone to pot since Tomlin took over as coach 10 years ago. Among the players who have joined the team during his watch are Bryant, LeGarrette Blount, Chris Rainey, Mike Adams and Alameda Ta’amu. All had character issues in college. Only Bryant remains under contract.

This is not just a Steelers problem. It happens all over the NFL. Some teams are worse than others, the Dallas Cowboys the worst of all. In 2012, owner Jerry Jones hired a babysitter to get star wide receiver Dez Bryant to and from practice and to keep him out of trouble at night. Imagine that. A grown man needing a babysitter. The Cowboys signed Greg Hardy last season despite his involvement in a domestic-abuse incident. They will open this season with three players on the suspended list because of substance-abuse violations. They must be so proud in Dallas.

Like all NFL teams, the Steelers are under great pressure to win. Maybe that’s why so many organizations have lowered their standard for bringing in quality people despite spending more time and money on background checks. There are no secrets anymore, no surprises when a player with a troubled past has more problems. The Steelers knew, for instance, Bryant had a questionable background at Clemson and that he slipped to the fourth round of the 2014 NFL draft for a reason. They took him, anyway. Bryant, a terrific talent, helped the team make the playoffs two years in a row but has failed or missed multiple drug tests. He was suspended for four games last season and is out this season. It seems unlikely he will play for the Steelers again. How can they count on him?

If you want to argue Tomlin deserves blame for some of the players the Steelers have brought in, I will listen. He has a big say, along with general manager Kevin Colbert, in all player-personnel moves. But I’m not going to hold Tomlin or any coach responsible for a player’s behavior once he is on the team. Is Baltimore’s John Harbaugh responsible for Ray Rice? New England’s Bill Belichick for Aaron Hernandez? Pick any of the 12 coaches the Cleveland Browns have had the past two seasons for Johnny Manziel? That’s ridiculous. The player is responsible for his conduct. He’s no longer a young, immature college kid. He’s supposed to be a professional. Is it too much to expect him to act like one?



read more

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/ron-cook/2016/08/09/Ron-Cook-It-s-Tomlin-over-Cowher-as-better-disciplinarian/stories/201608090015

[fansince'76]

Yinzer heads asplodin' everywhere... :chuckle:

[tube517]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6K034z1XC4E/UqIK5DmBXiI/AAAAAAAAF8E/qR3PUptEJcU/s1600/Cowher+Almost+Punch.gif :chuckle:

[ALLD]

I would do whatever Chin wanted so I wouldn't get blasted with a bunch of yell spit.

[teegre]

I would do whatever Chin wanted so I wouldn't get blasted with a bunch of yell spit.

Hines once commented about this. He said something along the lines of:

"Good play or bad play, you were gonna get covered in spit regardless... so, you might as well make it a good play." :lol:

[fansince'76]

Hines once commented about this. He said something along the lines of:

"Good play or bad play, you were gonna get covered in spit regardless... so, you might as well make it a good play." :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkhPuH8G5Hg

:chuckle:

[BigNastyDefense]

I agree 100% with that article. Tomlin can't hold these guys' hands. Hell, in the offseason he isn't allowed to contact players outside of OTA's and minicamps. I'm not even sure a player can contact him in an emergency without Tomlin getting in trouble.

Yeah, Tomlin/Steelers can discipline players for off-field conduct, but it's probably better to let the NFL deal with that for the most part. Otherwise the NFLPA can argue that the punishment is excessive, the player wins an appeal, and then it's possible the coach loses the locker room. Can't have that.

[86WARD]

Bill Belichick is responsible for bringing Aaron Hernandez to the Patriots and while Es not responsible for Hernandez' actions, the signs were very, very, very clear that he was the type of guy he turned out to be...and Belichick knew that.

[polamalubeast]

Bill Belichick is responsible for bringing Aaron Hernandez to the Patriots and while Es not responsible for Hernandez' actions, the signs were very, very, very clear that he was the type of guy he turned out to be...and Belichick knew that.


And Belichick has given at Hernandez a big contract in the 2012 Offseason.....

[Mojouw]

No one but the fans cares about these guys morals and character. As long as they can stay on the field and perform, teams will employ them. This whole character and morals thing is just so we, the fans, keep pouring money into this multi billion dollar industry.

I'm likely to get a brick thrown at me, but why do most Steelers fans appear to bear Bongtavious ill will and anger for his dope suspensions but blame the league for Ben's suspension due to his "ahem" exploits in Georgia?

Easy answer. One is a SB winning QB the other is tantalizingly talented but replaceable WR.

Talent trumps all.

[polamalubeast]

No one but the fans cares about these guys morals and character. As long as they can stay on the field and perform, teams will employ them. This whole character and morals thing is just so we, the fans, keep pouring money into this multi billion dollar industry.

I'm likely to get a brick thrown at me, but why do most Steelers fans appear to bear Bongtavious ill will and anger for his dope suspensions but blame the league for Ben's suspension due to his "ahem" exploits in Georgia?

Easy answer. One is a SB winning QB the other is tantalizingly talented but replaceable WR.

Talent trumps all.


Yes but it is frustrating when a talented player is not able to stay on the field because of their stupidity.

[Mojouw]

Yes but it is frustrating when a talented player is not able to stay on the field because of their stupidity.

Yeah. But go back and read the threads. Overwhelming Bryant is stupid and foolish and Ben is targeted by the league. Not all, but a general sense that is they way it is viewed.

If the NFL really cared about morality and character and discipline Greg Hardy would remain unemployed. He won't. Charles Haley would have never played his whole career. Most the Jimmy Johnson era Cowboys would have been fired. Ray Lewis would have been fired. The list goes on. The NFL and by extension the individual teams, only care about morality and discipline in so far as it affects winning coupled with fan perception staying positive enough to keep the cash register ringing.

[Born2Steel]

Coaches care. Thing is, they have to win to keep their job. That guy Fisher cut on 'Hard Knocks', for breaking team rules, perfect example. Does Gurley get the same punishment for bringing a girl to his room? HELL NO! Coach needs that player. To win. To keep his job. It is hypocritical to the extreme, yes. But that's football. At all levels.

[fansince'76]

No one but the fans cares about these guys morals and character. As long as they can stay on the field and perform, teams will employ them. This whole character and morals thing is just so we, the fans, keep pouring money into this multi billion dollar industry.

I'm likely to get a brick thrown at me, but why do most Steelers fans appear to bear Bongtavious ill will and anger for his dope suspensions but blame the league for Ben's suspension due to his "ahem" exploits in Georgia?

Easy answer. One is a SB winning QB the other is tantalizingly talented but replaceable WR.

Talent trumps all.

I dunno, burden of proof, maybe? The way I remember it, and in my opinion at least, the biggest reason for Roethlisberger's suspension was the obvious attempt by Goodell to take the heat off of himself that was being applied by the Jason Whitlocks of the world at the time and essentially mollify that ilk's general criticism that he came down harder on black players than white players when it came to player discipline. Unfortunately, Roethlisberger gave him a very convenient and high-profile target to "prove" he wasn't a racist.

(Gee, I'm sure there's no way it could possibly be that the "disproportionate" number of black players being suspended by the NFL has anything to do with the fact that about 70% of the player population is black to begin with, but that's another thread topic entirely...)

The irony? Whitlock ultimately wound up criticizing Goodell for his handling of the Roethlisberger case anyway (http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/ben-roethlisberger-just-a-pawn-in-roger-goodells-game-020211). :chuckle:


...Goodell’s personal-conduct policy and his boneheaded decision to serve as judge, jury and executioner of the policy has forced the commissioner to play racial politics.

Big Ben is Goodell’s white whipping boy.

My point? Even Whitlock saw through the ruse eventually. Sure, it took about 6 months and Goodell publicly piling on Roethlisberger (again) during Super Bowl week for him to finally get it, but I never personally credited Whitlock for being the sharpest tool in the shed either.

Bottom line, Roethlisberger was suspended once due to accusations (no arrest, no criminal charges, but accusations) and Goodell's completely inconsistent and arbitrary enforcement of the Player Conduct Policy (which has since been well-established as being par for the course for Goodell). On the other hand, Bryant has now been suspended multiple times according to a very clearly defined and gradually escalating punishment schedule under the NFL's Drug Policy due to either testing dirty for THC/outright skipping multiple piss tests because he ostensibly wouldn't have passed them anyway. That's the difference, and it's pretty much night and day.

I also find it laughable at just how many people continue to bitch about the "lack of evidence" against Brady after the absolute ream job Roethlisberger got between Goodell and the grandstanding podunk hillbilly DA taking full advantage of his 15 minutes of national TV face time with his ridiculous and completely unwarranted lecture on morality and how many people still consider Roethlisberger guilty of rape as a result of it. And there are PLENTY of Yinzers who still hold the Milledgeville incident against Roethlisberger, if you haven't bothered to notice.

[polamalubeast]

Yeah. But go back and read the threads. Overwhelming Bryant is stupid and foolish and Ben is targeted by the league. Not all, but a general sense that is they way it is viewed.

If the NFL really cared about morality and character and discipline Greg Hardy would remain unemployed. He won't. Charles Haley would have never played his whole career. Most the Jimmy Johnson era Cowboys would have been fired. Ray Lewis would have been fired. The list goes on. The NFL and by extension the individual teams, only care about morality and discipline in so far as it affects winning coupled with fan perception staying positive enough to keep the cash register ringing.

It changes.I would be surprised if Ray Rice and Greg Hardy plays another snap in the NFL.

[tube517]

Yeah. But go back and read the threads. Overwhelming Bryant is stupid and foolish and Ben is targeted by the league. Not all, but a general sense that is they way it is viewed.

If the NFL really cared about morality and character and discipline Greg Hardy would remain unemployed. He won't. Charles Haley would have never played his whole career. Most the Jimmy Johnson era Cowboys would have been fired. Ray Lewis would have been fired. The list goes on. The NFL and by extension the individual teams, only care about morality and discipline in so far as it affects winning coupled with fan perception staying positive enough to keep the cash register ringing.

Very true.

The players in the 70s were doing some crazy stuff. It took until 1982 and Don Reese's Sports Illustrated article for the league to start paying attention to the drug use.

Even the ABC MNF crew was blitzed during games. Cosell wrote about it.

[Mojouw]

I dunno, burden of proof, maybe? The way I remember it, and in my opinion at least, the biggest reason for Roethlisberger's suspension was the obvious attempt by Goodell to take the heat off of himself that was being applied by the Jason Whitlocks of the world at the time and essentially mollify that ilk's general criticism that he came down harder on black players than white players when it came to player discipline. Unfortunately, Roethlisberger gave him a very convenient and high-profile target to "prove" he wasn't a racist.

(Gee, I'm sure there's no way it could possibly be that the "disproportionate" number of black players being suspended by the NFL has anything to do with the fact that about 70% of the player population is black to begin with, but that's another thread topic entirely...)

The irony? Whitlock ultimately wound up criticizing Goodell for his handling of the Roethlisberger case anyway (http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/ben-roethlisberger-just-a-pawn-in-roger-goodells-game-020211). :chuckle:



My point? Even Whitlock saw through the ruse eventually. Sure, it took about 6 months and Goodell publicly piling on Roethlisberger (again) during Super Bowl week for him to finally get it, but I never personally credited Whitlock for being the sharpest tool in the shed either.

Bottom line, Roethlisberger was suspended once due to accusations (no arrest, no criminal charges, but accusations) and Goodell's completely inconsistent and arbitrary enforcement of the Player Conduct Policy (which has since been well-established as being par for the course for Goodell). On the other hand, Bryant has now been suspended multiple times according to a very clearly defined and gradually escalating punishment schedule under the NFL's Drug Policy due to either testing dirty for THC/outright skipping multiple piss tests because he ostensibly wouldn't have passed them anyway. That's the difference, and it's pretty much night and day.

I also find it laughable at just how many people continue to bitch about the "lack of evidence" against Brady after the absolute ream job Roethlisberger got between Goodell and the grandstanding podunk hillbilly DA taking full advantage of his 15 minutes of national TV face time with his ridiculous and completely unwarranted lecture on morality and how many people still consider Roethlisberger guilty of rape as a result of it. And there are PLENTY of Yinzers who still hold the Milledgeville incident against Roethlisberger, if you haven't bothered to notice.

All totally valid and good points. I think it comes down to what each of us believes happened that night in that bar. I personally believe that it likely wasn't criminal but was SKETCHY and SLEAZY as hell. And I also don't really give a crap. I suspect that most of the NFL is made up of not really nice people. Like I have said many times before, I don't need role models, I just want to watch some talented folks play ball on Sunday.

My long and rambling point across all these posts is that I am sick and tired of the NFL pretending they give a flying $#%* about morals and character. Or that they have the interests and personal success of the players in mind. All they care about is cash money and public perception. That's fine, but let's get over the hand wringing and lecturing about discipline and character.

For instance, Greg Hardy is not unemployed because of his toxic and abusive relationships with women, but because he was a locker room cancer and challenged his head coaches authority in Dallas. That is the only kind of discipline and player conduct coaches actually care about - do they follow orders?

[zulater]

All totally valid and good points. I think it comes down to what each of us believes happened that night in that bar. I personally believe that it likely wasn't criminal but was SKETCHY and SLEAZY as hell. And I also don't really give a crap. I suspect that most of the NFL is made up of not really nice people. Like I have said many times before, I don't need role models, I just want to watch some talented folks play ball on Sunday.

My long and rambling point across all these posts is that I am sick and tired of the NFL pretending they give a flying $#%* about morals and character. Or that they have the interests and personal success of the players in mind. All they care about is cash money and public perception. That's fine, but let's get over the hand wringing and lecturing about discipline and character.

For instance, Greg Hardy is not unemployed because of his toxic and abusive relationships with women, but because he was a locker room cancer and challenged his head coaches authority in Dallas. That is the only kind of discipline and player conduct coaches actually care about - do they follow orders?

"sketchy"? No more so than many other one night hookups in my opinion. Remember according to the first officer on the scene the friends drove the allegations. While her friends were making the claim that she was assaulted the supposed victim was reported to say "whatever ya'll in the background. I think both Ben and his accuser immediately regretted their actions as soon as they were through or probably while they were still in the act. It's always been my opinion that Ben hooked up because it's what he thought was expected of him from his "boys". His friends were trying to get him laid for his birthday. Miss DTF was all aboard probably thinking it was just big game and enjoying being the center of attention from Ben and his buddies. Then they find themselves alone, and it probably occurs to them that neither particularly want to be there, but neither says the word or takes action to put it to a stop. So like a game of chicken they go through with it because neither Ben nor the girl would be the first to give in and say "isn't this some bullshit?"(according to the GBA report the girl when asked if she ever asked Ben to stop she said "No." When asked if she tried to physically resist in any way again no. Now don't give me the shit she was not strong enough to stop him, because ask any married man, as soon as your woman gives you a shove and tells you no you stop in your tracks and your weiner shrinks to infant size :lol: ) So regretted and most likely awkward it was no more sketchy than and sleazy than most one night affairs with a stranger. I would imagine more athletes than not have had a similarly awkward hookup's that didn't result in allegations because there were no bitch friends to guilt the woman into phony charges in an effort to preserve her alleged virtue within her circle.

If I sound harsh I don't care. Anyone who bothered to read the GBA report in it's entirety ( as I have done) could clearly see there was no crime committed and the girl was pressured into a false allegation by her friends.

[Mojouw]

"sketchy"? No more so than many other one night hookups in my opinion. Remember according to the first officer on the scene the friends drove the allegations. While her friends were making the claim that she was assaulted the supposed victim was reported to say "whatever ya'll in the background. I think both Ben and his accuser immediately regretted their actions as soon as they were through or probably while they were still in the act. It's always been my opinion that Ben hooked up because it's what he thought was expected of him from his "boys". His friends were trying to get him laid for his birthday. Miss DTF was all aboard probably thinking it was just big game and enjoying being the center of attention from Ben and his buddies. Then they find themselves alone, and it probably occurs to them that neither particularly want to be there, but neither says the word or takes action to put it to a stop. So like a game of chicken they go through with it because neither Ben nor the girl would be the first to give in and say "isn't this some bullshit?"(according to the GBA report the girl when asked if she ever asked Ben to stop she said "No." When asked if she tried to physically resist in any way again no. Now don't give me the shit she was not strong enough to stop him, because ask any married man, as soon as your woman gives you a shove and tells you no you stop in your tracks and your weiner shrinks to infant size :lol: ) So regretted and most likely awkward it was no more sketchy than and sleazy than most one night affairs with a stranger. I would imagine more athletes than not have had a similarly awkward hookup's that didn't result in allegations because there were no bitch friends to guilt the woman into phony charges in an effort to preserve her alleged virtue within her circle.

If I sound harsh I don't care. Anyone who bothered to read the GBA report in it's entirety ( as I have done) could clearly see there was no crime committed and the girl was pressured into a false allegation by her friends.

Like I said not criminal, but I don't care who you are and where you are there has never been non sketchy non sleazy sex in a bar bathroom.

[86WARD]

No one but the fans cares about these guys morals and character. As long as they can stay on the field and perform, teams will employ them. This whole character and morals thing is just so we, the fans, keep pouring money into this multi billion dollar industry.

I'm likely to get a brick thrown at me, but why do most Steelers fans appear to bear Bongtavious ill will and anger for his dope suspensions but blame the league for Ben's suspension due to his "ahem" exploits in Georgia?

Easy answer. One is a SB winning QB the other is tantalizingly talented but replaceable WR.

Talent trumps all.

I don't know...Ben was pretty much found "innocent" there and still got suspended.

The fans had the same I'll will towards Santonio Holmes and he was a Super Bowl MVP...

[LloydWoodson]

Tomlin had two great playoff runs in 2008 and 2010. In his other 7 seasons as a head coach he has one playoff win... which was this past year... when the Bengals imploded... and in fact... Fitzpatrick playing like garbage is the only reason the Steelers made the wild card at all because it was one of many seasons where the Steelers had no control of their destiny at year's end.

[polamalubeast]

4 times since 2007 a team won the Super Bowl with only 9 or 10 wins in a season(who is the same total than the steelers last year) and you have to considered the injuries than the had steelers including those of Roethlisberger that cost at least 2 games, the first against the Ravens and the one against the Bengals when the Steelers lost because Roethlisberger was rusty.The steelers had also a very tough Schedule(The jets had a easy one)

But I agree that Tomlin must be more consistent in the playoffs, which is the reason why I think John Harbaugh is a better coach than Tomlin right now.

[LloydWoodson]

I agree the Steelers are about a 10 win team with an outside shot at a SB run.

[polamalubeast]

I agree the Steelers are about a 10 win team with an outside shot at a SB run.

A first round bye is also a possibility....

If the Steelers can win 10 games without Roethlisberger for four games and with a of the toughest Schedule in the nfl, no doubt, the Steelers can win 12 games with a first round bye.

[fansince'76]

Tomlin had two great playoff runs in 2008 and 2010. In his other 7 seasons as a head coach he has one playoff win... which was this past year... when the Bengals imploded...

Bengals implosion? Really?

The Steelers would have been heading into the 4th quarter with a very comfortable 22-0 lead after Shazier caused the fumble and the POS cheapshot artist had been (rightfully) ejected as soon as he began starting trouble (see: opening whistle) and before he had a chance to knock Roethlisberger (and then Brown) out had the game been officiated correctly to begin with, but that's not what the powers-that-be wanted since free-for-all circuses draw better ratings, apparently.

Exactly where was the quick whistle on Shazier's fumble return when Birth Defect was slamming his knee into Roethlisberger's shoulder on the ground?


and in fact... Fitzpatrick playing like garbage is the only reason the Steelers made the wild card at all because it was one of many seasons where the Steelers had no control of their destiny at year's end.

And the Chiefs played their scrubs against the Chargers and lousy officiating in that game was still the only reason the Steelers missed the playoffs in 2013. :noidea:

You win some, you lose some...

[GRAYGHOST668]

Tomlin inherited a great team and they won the Super Bowl his first or 2nd season.then the O-line went to shit and the defence has been worse each year while Tomlin run the show,,,,I was not a fan of Bill's but I think he was a much better coach

[fansince'76]

IMO, the O-line went noticeably south when Hartings retired and Faneca left, and both of those events occurred right before Tomlin was hired. The Steelers team Tomlin inherited was far from great, IMO.

Personally, I think the difference between Tomlin and Cowher as coaches is negligible. The defense has gotten worse, but the offense is light years better than any offense Cowher put on the field.

[GRAYGHOST668]

IMO, the O-line went noticeably south when Hartings retired and Faneca left, and both of those events occurred right before Tomlin was hired. The Steelers team Tomlin inherited was far from great, IMO.

Personally, I think the difference between Tomlin and Cowher as coaches is negligible. The defense has gotten worse, but the offense is light years better than any offense Cowher put on the field.


you can think what you want but 2006 was the season Ben had the motorcyle accident ,AND THE APPENDECTOMY and a early CONCUSSION,,,,so they did not have a banner year that year they went 8-8,,,,,,,Faneca and Hastings both were with the team,Tomlin was hired for the following season,,,yes Hastings retired but Faneca was there in 2007 they went 10-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2008 they won it all ,the line problem was so bad Ben mentioned it during the press conference right after the game ,,,,,yes it was a well put together team most of it was done by Bill Cowher,,,save for the off season of 2006 and that was due to the injuries Ben suffered through that season plus the APPENDECTOMY,,,,I think we can give the team a pass for one bad season,,,,

[polamalubeast]

No doubt, the steelers in the 2000s was a great team...Not at the steelers in the 1970s, since nobody was at this level in the salary cap era, but it was still a great team.The o-line was the only weakness.But I think this year, the team can be a Super Bowl contender and this team is a Mike Tomlin team.

I prefer Bill Cowher for now, but it would have been stupid if Tomlin would have been as Chip Kelly and Josh McDaniels at his debut in wanting to win with his players and not with the players of Bill Cowher.

[GRAYGHOST668]

No doubt, the steelers in the 2000s was a great team...Not at the steelers in the 1970s, since nobody was at this level in the salary cap era, but it was still a great team.The o-line was the only weakness.But I think this year, the team can be a Super Bowl contender and this team is a Mike Tomlin team.

I prefer Bill Cowher for now, but it would have been stupid if Tomlin would have been as Chip Kelly and Josh McDaniels at his debut in wanting to win with his players and not with the players of Bill Cowher.

most of Bills team is gone now and the team is almost all Tomlins now,I think Ben is the only one left,,,you are right doing a purge would have been foolishness and I believe would have cost the team a lot of fans,,,,,in the last couple of years it has been a Tomlin team,it took time but the O-line is at least solid and they have developed a potent offence,,,now if the Defense will just come around ,,,I do not like a bend but don't break Defense,,,,time will tell

[LloydWoodson]

Hartings was gone and replaced by terrible Sean Mahan in 2007. Faneca was disgruntled that year but played one season under Tomlin before going to NYJ.

The OL wasn't addressed in the draft until 2010. Tomlin said they would "protect Ben with weapons" at the 2008 draft.

The OL hasn't been a strength under Tomlin until last year or the year before.

The offense has looked better the last two years of Tomlin's career other than that not significantly better than Cowher's offenses and Cowher had a run of mediocre QBs.

I'm sure Cowher would have liked to have a veteran HOF QB like Ben at ANY point in his career. He did pretty well with a rookie and second year Ben though.

[fansince'76]

you can think what you want but 2006 was the season Ben had the motorcyle accident ,AND THE APPENDECTOMY and a early CONCUSSION,,,,so they did not have a banner year that year they went 8-8,,,,,,,Faneca and Hastings both were with the team,Tomlin was hired for the following season,,,yes Hastings retired but Faneca was there in 2007 they went 10-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2008 they won it all ,the line problem was so bad Ben mentioned it during the press conference right after the game ,,,,,yes it was a well put together team most of it was done by Bill Cowher,,,save for the off season of 2006 and that was due to the injuries Ben suffered through that season plus the APPENDECTOMY,,,,I think we can give the team a pass for one bad season,,,,

OK. How about 2003? Or 1998 and 1999?

[fansince'76]

I'm sure Cowher would have liked to have a veteran HOF QB like Ben at ANY point in his career. He did pretty well with a rookie and second year Ben though.

No, Cowher, being a Martyball disciple, was of the belief that he could basically put any pile of shit under center and still win. To his credit, it almost worked. And they wouldn't have drafted Roethlisberger either if Dan Rooney hadn't pulled rank on him in 2004.

And if Turnover Tommy would have never gotten hurt, I think the chances were pretty good that Roethlisberger would have rotted on the bench until Cowher stepped down, kinda the same way James Harrison did.

[LloydWoodson]

How was Kordell Stewart a "Martyball" QB? Why doesn't Cowher get credit for using trick plays?

Cowher took more risks than he is given credit for.

Rooney takes 100% credit for drafting Ben? Sure. His is the only voice being heard since his book is the source of that info.

Speculating that Ben would have been relegated to the bench forever and ever isn't helpful.

Likely Rooney would have made Cowher play Ben no? The Rooneys are notorious meddlers.

[fansince'76]

Christ, I'm not getting into this again.

I'm convinced - Tomlin did nothing but ride Cowher's team to the SB in 2008 (never minding the fact that of the two most important players in the SB, the NFL DPOY as well as the Steelers MVP in 2008 was cut 3 times by Cowher and did nothing but ride pine until he left and the other was largely drafted because the owner stepped in and basically overruled Cowher in 2004.)

But yeah, OK, the Cowher Era was the golden age of Steelers football and will never be equaled. Especially by that Rooney Rule reject Tomlin.

Ahrn City Lights all around!

[ALLD]

Watch the slow start again under Tomlin. He doesn't want to peak too soon, but sometimes he waits until Week 10 to get going. Sloppy play is evidence of lack of discipline. Watch Week 1 bumbles and follies.

[polamalubeast]

Watch the slow start again under Tomlin. He doesn't want to peak too soon, but sometimes he waits until Week 10 to get going. Sloppy play is evidence of lack of discipline. Watch Week 1 bumbles and follies.


The slow starts (first 4 games) is a problem with Tomlin but the lack of discipline is not a problem for most of the time.The steelers are often one of the least penalized teams in the nfl.

[fansince'76]

Yep, never any slow starts under Cowher, no siree Bob! In the Days of Wine and Roses (see: Cowher Era), they started at least 10-0 every season!


They were sitting at 4-4 at the halfway point of the season that O'Donnell wound up throwing the SB away.

They were sitting at 7-5 and a cat's whisker away from mathematical elimination from the playoffs in 2005 when they wound up winning 8 straight on a SB-winning run.

[polamalubeast]

Yep, never any slow starts under Cowher, no siree Bob! In the Days of Wine and Roses (see: Cowher Era), they started at least 10-0 every season!



I never said that!....But in 2005, the Steelers were 7-2 before their mid-season slump, but this is true that in general the steelers were also often at 2-2 with Cowher too.

[ALLD]

They were never like the 70s teams that were well oiled.

[LloydWoodson]

Watch the slow start again under Tomlin. He doesn't want to peak too soon, but sometimes he waits until Week 10 to get going. Sloppy play is evidence of lack of discipline. Watch Week 1 bumbles and follies.

That's so Tomlincan unleash Hell in December.

[LloydWoodson]

Christ, I'm not getting into this again.

I'm convinced - Tomlin did nothing but ride Cowher's team to the SB in 2008 (never minding the fact that of the two most important players in the SB, the NFL DPOY as well as the Steelers MVP in 2008 was cut 3 times by Cowher and did nothing but ride pine until he left and the other was largely drafted because the owner stepped in and basically overruled Cowher in 2004.)

But yeah, OK, the Cowher Era was the golden age of Steelers football and will never be equaled. Especially by that Rooney Rule reject Tomlin.

Ahrn City Lights all around!

Maybe you've noticed that Harrison has something of an attitude problem? That combined with him being very raw and also the Steelers having very capable OLBs in Porter and Haggans made Harrison expendable. The Ravens also cut Harrison and they're pretty good at 3-4 D as well.

Harrison wasn't a starter under Cowher. Porter was. How is that a knock on Cowher? He should have cut Porter earlier to take a chance on Harrison? Hmm. I disagree on the basis that Porter had multiple ten sack seasons left in him and was the emotional leader on D with Potsy.

Silly argument IMO.

Tomlin needs to be a strict disciplinarian with this you g team in some cases. He also handles superstars with kid gloves same as any other HC. I have no problem
with Tomlin's discipline other than he keeps players in a doghouse some times.

Seems like this whole article was needless Tomlin ballwashing. I'm not for that.

Tomlin has 2 great playoff runs in 9 seasons and a lot of mediocrity otherwise. I'm not buying the hype. We've been down this road every year. I won't be surprised when Garrard, Tebow or a decrepit Manning knock the Steelers out of the playoffs... and let's hope the Chiefs don't rest their starters and the Jets blow the game so the Steelers get a WC spot. Right?

[fansince'76]

Maybe you've noticed that Harrison has something of an attitude problem? That combined with him being very raw and also the Steelers having very capable OLBs in Porter and Haggans made Harrison expendable. The Ravens also cut Harrison and they're pretty good at 3-4 D as well.

Harrison wasn't a starter under Cowher. Porter was. How is that a knock on Cowher? He should have cut Porter earlier to take a chance on Harrison? Hmm. I disagree on the basis that Porter had multiple ten sack seasons left in him and was the emotional leader on D with Potsy.

Silly argument IMO.

And how many times did Porter singlehandedly destroy the Ravens on MNF and win NFL DPOY? But that isn't my argument. My argument is that Harrison would have never supplanted Porter as the starter as long as Cowher was there, based solely on the fact that Porter was "Cowher Guy" Numero Uno. For as much flak as Tomlin gets for playing favorites, Cowher was every bit as guilty.

Secondly, I'm simply sick of the "Cowher's players" argument in reference to SB XLIII when arguably the most important player in that game (Harrison) did NOTHING of note during his time under Cowher other than body slamming a drunken fatass of a Browns fan and dissing the White House visit after SB XL.


Tomlin needs to be a strict disciplinarian with this you g team in some cases. He also handles superstars with kid gloves same as any other HC. I have no problem with Tomlin's discipline other than he keeps players in a doghouse some times.

Fair enough.


Seems like this whole article was needless Tomlin ballwashing. I'm not for that.

Fair enough.


Tomlin has 2 great playoff runs in 9 seasons and a lot of mediocrity otherwise. I'm not buying the hype. We've been down this road every year. I won't be surprised when Garrard, Tebow or a decrepit Manning knock the Steelers out of the playoffs... and let's hope the Chiefs don't rest their starters and the Jets blow the game so the Steelers get a WC spot. Right?

So you were cool with the Steelers losing to the Stan Humphries of the world in their own backyard? What I remember of the Cowher years were mostly very disappointing and bitter losses at home in the AFCCG with at least two of those being to teams ('94 Chargers and '01 Patriots) that they were clearly superior to and should have wiped the floor with. And the one Super Bowl he did manage to win was so poorly played by both teams that everybody who isn't a Steelers fan still thinks it was a gift to the Rooneys by the refs.

Like I said in an earlier post in this thread, the difference between Cowher and Tomlin as far as head coaches are concerned is negligible at this point, IMO. Noll still blows them both away.

[LloydWoodson]

The 94 49ers weren't losing that Superbowl to anyone.

O'Donnell threw 54 times in the AFC Championship game... "because Martyball."

The only people that think the refs won SB XL are Seattle fans and fans that hate the Steelers (which many do).

Why do you focus on the refs so much? You talked about the blown call on the Giovanni Bernard fumble too. Refs miss calls all the time. That isn't an excuse for losing games.

That's like a fighter letting the fight get to the score card. Guess you should have finished him then.

[fansince'76]

The 94 49ers weren't losing that Superbowl to anyone.

O'Donnell threw 54 times in the AFC Championship game... "because Martyball."

The only people that think the refs won SB XL are Seattle fans and fans that hate the Steelers (which many do).

Why do you focus on the refs so much? You talked about the blown call on the Giovanni Bernard fumble too. Refs miss calls all the time. That isn't an excuse for losing games.

That's like a fighter letting the fight get to the score card. Guess you should have finished him then.

Nice try - we didn't lose that game. And I've firmly stated for years here and back on SF that only pussies blame losses on the refs. But thanks to the "everyone-gets-a-trophy-and-pizza-party-for-participation" mindset that has pervaded society, it's become a popular pastime.

SB XL was a crapfest of a game = fact. The fact that it was a crapfest of a game is why every ESPN dittohead focused on the officiating instead of the game itself = fact. The "DA STEALERS PAYED DA REFS" narrative that was borne out of that game continues to this day and not just with Squawks fans = fact.

[polamalubeast]

Why do you focus on the refs so much? You talked about the blown call on the Giovanni Bernard fumble too. Refs miss calls all the time. That isn't an excuse for losing games.

The what if by you are not better.What happened has happened and you have to live with that.The Steelers made the playoffs and they beat the Bengals in the playoffs.If I would use the IF, I could say that the Steelers would have possibly been at the AFC title game last year if Brown would not have been OUT against Denver.The IF can go on both side but the IF are for the losers.

[hawaiiansteeler]

SB XL was a crapfest of a game = fact. The fact that it was a crapfest of a game is why every ESPN dittohead focused on the officiating instead of the game itself = fact. The "DA STEALERS PAYED DA REFS" narrative that was borne out of that game continues to this day and not just with Squawks fans = fact.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/pro-football/35650-grade-refs-super-bowl-xliii-ref-1.jpg

[Born2Steel]

Now that's how all refs should dress.

[teegre]

In related news...

--the Steelers should switch to the 4-3
--Brandon Boykin is a demigod
--whipping dead horses is found to actually be quite productive

[pczach]

In related news...

--the Steelers should switch to the 4-3
--Brandon Boykin is a demigod
--whipping dead horses is found to actually be quite productive


These topics have hardly ever been discussed on Steelers message boards over the last decade or more.


:sarcasm:

[polamalubeast]

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