More "AB is Dissatisfied With His Contract" Talk

[Craic]

Here's the link (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/17152718/antonio-brown-attend-pittsburgh-steelers-camp-wants-new-deal).

Personally, I think it's recycled garbage. But, I want your opinion. Do you think this is coming from AB? Is it an offhanded comment spun up into something more (say, AB, how'd you feel about a new contract? asks a reporter. "I'd love one," he answers. "But we're already heading into camp, so if something like that were to happen, it'd have to be soon." HEADLINES: AB WANTS NEW CONTRACT!) Something else?

[polamalubeast]

If I would be the Steelers, I would give a new contract at Brown and the steelers are lucky that Brown has a very good attitude and he will not make a holdout.

Brown's contract has been one of the best contract in NFL history for a team.

[Steelerchad]

when they didn't sign Wallace and gave Brown his deal, I thought the Steelers way over paid. Obviously they knew what they had and the contract ended up being a bargain.
Haven't the Steelers almost been flawless recently in drafting wr talent. Last bust I can remember was Sweed in 07 or 08 I believe.
Wallace, Sanders, Brown, Bryant, Wheaton, and now likely Coates will prove to be a viable starter for us.

Brown has earned a mega contract, but can you give him a $15M/yr deal and afford everyone else you need.
Brown looks even better because of his work ethic and no off the field issues, but how much of it is the QB. He's locked in through 2017 and we could play hard ball and franchise him for a year after that.
At that point, he's on the downside and Ben likely only has 4 years left anyway.

[polamalubeast]

The steelers have been great for drafted WR in recent years, but none of his WR has been close at the level to Brown.

And if the steelers play hard ball with Antonio Brown, that would be very bad for the reputation of the team.

[lipps83]

Letting Brown walk away over money would be the offensive equivalent of letting Woodson go.

Don't do it.

[polamalubeast]

Letting Brown walk away over money would be the offensive equivalent of letting Woodson go.

Don't do it.


Agree.

[Steeldude]

Didn't Brown willfully agree and sign his current contract? When his current contract is up then make another.

[st33lersguy]

His current contract isn't up until 2018, 2 offseasons from now

[Steeldude]

His current contract isn't up until 2018, 2 offseasons from now

I guess he shouldn't have signed the contract.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Letting Brown walk away over money would be the offensive equivalent of letting Woodson go.

Don't do it.

No, it would be much worse. AB is the best WR in the NFL and is still young and getting better. Woodson had lost speed and needed to switch to safety when he was let go.

As others have said, AB still has 2 more years left on his contract so he's not going anywhere any time soon.

[steelreserve]

Work out a new contract next offseason; he's earned it. Until then, he is not the highest-paid WR in the league but he is still being paid well. Pretty much the end of THAT discussion.

By the way, there is one option not listed in the poll that I think may be the real answer - which is that this may not be the first thing on the mind of Brown himself, but he has a real dickhead for an agent, and you can bet your bottom dollar that guy is going to go around trying to stir up shit wherever he can.

[polamalubeast]

Work out a new contract next offseason; he's earned it. Until then, he is not the highest-paid WR in the league but he is still being paid well. Pretty much the end of THAT discussion.

By the way, there is one option not listed in the poll that I think may be the real answer - which is that this may not be the first thing on the mind of Brown himself, but he has a real dickhead for an agent, and you can bet your bottom dollar that guy is going to go around trying to stir up shit wherever he can.

Several average WR are paid more than Brown right now.By the market, Brown is not very well paid right now....

I am just happy than Brown will not make a holdout....

[86WARD]

There's something in the neighborhood of 25 or so receivers paid more than Brown...lol.

[Craic]

The Rooneys took a big gamble on Brown when they gave him the contract. Brown knows that. Now, that gamble is paying off. Brown coming into camp and not causing disruption is a very good sign. Do it again next year, and I'll guarantee the Rooneys will be willing to pay Brown a very nice contract next year.

We all know the Steelers way when it comes to contracts: negotiate a new contract one year prior to the previous one's end date. It's a great philosophy that's served this team well, and they've only reneged on that philosophy one time—when Maddox was being paid third string money while starting for the Steelers.

[teegre]

Pay AB now.

But, but, but... his contract.
Things change. The market has gone waaay up, and he should be paid accordingly.

But, but, but... I'd be glad to play for what he makes.
Alas, you aren't as skilled as AB. In fact, neither is any other receiver.

But, but, but... I don't re-negotiate in my job.
Musicians, actors, and athletes are not in the same type of job. At one point, Chris Pratt could only command about $1 million per movie. No longer (he makes so much more).

But, but, but... millions.
The owners make billions. Most people do not understand how significant the difference is between a million and a billion. (No derision; the amounts are arbitrary to 99% of people.) This will help: you live the 1 millionth second of your life on the 11th day of your life, and your billionth second at almost the age of 32. So, yeah, I'm going to side with the underpaid millionaire player over the ungodly rich billionaire owners.

[ALLD]

If they pay him more now theoretically they will not have to pay even more in 2 years. Give him a bump if there is room, but not to the highest paid receiver.

[Shoes]

None of them are worth the money they are being paid. Its a sick system.

[lipps83]

No, it would be much worse. AB is the best WR in the NFL and is still young and getting better. Woodson had lost speed and needed to switch to safety when he was let go.

As others have said, AB still has 2 more years left on his contract so he's not going anywhere any time soon.

I mean as far as being an all time fan favorite more-so than talent wise in the Woodson comparison.

AB is a once in a generation player both in his skill and attitude. WR's are a dime a dozen, but AB is priceless.

[Craic]

Pay AB now.

But, but, but... his contract.
Things change. The market has gone waaay up, and he should be paid accordingly.

But, but, but... I'd be glad to play for what he makes.
Alas, you aren't as skilled as AB. In fact, neither is any other receiver.

But, but, but... I don't re-negotiate in my job.
Musicians, actors, and athletes are not in the same type of job. At one point, Chris Pratt could only command about $1 million per movie. No longer (he makes so much more).

But, but, but... millions.
The owners make billions. Most people do not understand how significant the difference is between a million and a billion. (No derision; the amounts are arbitrary to 99% of people.) This will help: you live the 1 millionth second of your life on the 11th day of your life, and your billionth second at almost the age of 32. So, yeah, I'm going to side with the underpaid millionaire player over the ungodly rich billionaire owners.
No.

What you, and many others, are forgetting is that (1) he was vastly overpaid his first year of the contract—66 receptions and 787 yards with a 62.3 percent catch rate. The next year looks great, but when you dig into the number, you realize a lot of it was simply because the balls thrown to him increased. In fact, according to this sheet (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/2013/cash/wide-receiver/), he was paid as much as DeSean Jackson, who had very similar stats - hence, he didn't outplay his contract that year.

in 2015, he restructured his contract, and got a 4.4 million bonus tacked on each of the following years of his contract. Hence, 2015, he actually made 7.1 million, just three spots out of the top ten WR salaries. In 2016, he's going to make over 12 Million, which puts him 8th in top salaries for WRs. As it stands next year, he's going to get 13.1 Mill, which puts him FOURTH HIGHEST in WRs paid.

So, sorry, but I couldn't care less about his so-called plight. He's making very good money, and is being paid moneys in the top half of the WRs in the league, with the next two years putting him in the top 10 and top 5, respectively with his current contract.

And that, I remind you, is because the Steelers ALREADY decided to help him out and give him a fantastic restructuring bonus.

Oh, and Billionaire owners? I couldn't care less. Every team is given only so much money they can spend on a team each year. That's the reality, not how much money an owner has.


If they pay him more now theoretically they will not have to pay even more in 2 years. Give him a bump if there is room, but not to the highest paid receiver.

He's already going to be bumped to the top 10 and then top 5 receivers in his current contract. No reason to negotiate now. (see above).

[fansince'76]

Several average WR are paid more than Brown right now.By the market, Brown is not very well paid right now....

That doesn't mean the Steelers should pay for other teams' stupidity, especially when it was the Steelers who took the giant gamble of giving him his current contract when he was still unproven and letting Wallace walk to begin with. Teams like the Buccaneers paying guys like Vincent Jackson almost $12 million per year is a big part of the reason those teams suck year in and year out.


The owners make billions.

The Rooneys don't...

[teegre]

The Rooneys don't...

True. They do not have multi-millions coming in from a secondary business (e.g. Jerrah has oil money).

That said, they are one of 32 owners/ownership groups that split the revenue from the multi-billion dollar television deals.

[teegre]

No.

What you, and many others, are forgetting is that (1) he was vastly overpaid his first year of the contract—66 receptions and 787 yards with a 62.3 percent catch rate. The next year looks great, but when you dig into the number, you realize a lot of it was simply because the balls thrown to him increased. In fact, according to this sheet (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/2013/cash/wide-receiver/), he was paid as much as DeSean Jackson, who had very similar stats - hence, he didn't outplay his contract that year.

in 2015, he restructured his contract, and got a 4.4 million bonus tacked on each of the following years of his contract. Hence, 2015, he actually made 7.1 million, just three spots out of the top ten WR salaries. In 2016, he's going to make over 12 Million, which puts him 8th in top salaries for WRs. As it stands next year, he's going to get 13.1 Mill, which puts him FOURTH HIGHEST in WRs paid.

So, sorry, but I couldn't care less about his so-called plight. He's making very good money, and is being paid moneys in the top half of the WRs in the league, with the next two years putting him in the top 10 and top 5, respectively with his current contract.

And that, I remind you, is because the Steelers ALREADY decided to help him out and give him a fantastic restructuring bonus.

Oh, and Billionaire owners? I couldn't care less. Every team is given only so much money they can spend on a team each year. That's the reality, not how much money an owner has.

1. TOP TEN
Top ten is not #1.
Top 5 is not #1.
For arguement's sake, let's say those next two years are "good enough". Okay... but, the previous three seasons were nowhere near the top ten... putting him in the top ten in less than half of his monster (top ten stats-wise) seasons:

2013: 110 for 1499, with (only) 8 TDs
2014: 129 for 1698, with 13 TDs
2015: 136 for 1834, with 10 TDs

2. BILLIONS:
I'm pro-player. The owners bring in billions from television deals, and from jersey sales, and ticket sales, and et cetera. IMO the salary cap should be $50 million higher, putting a larger percentage back into the players' hands.

3. OVERPAID???
I wholeheartedly disagree. These athletes perform tasks that very few can even dream of doing. And, AB might be the best offensive player I've ever seen, and at a minimum, the most "special" since Barry Sanders. IMO he's is worth every single penny that he earns.

[Shoes]

1. TOP TEN
Top ten is not #1.
Top 5 is not #1.
For arguement's sake, let's say those next two years are "good enough". Okay... but, the previous three seasons were nowhere near the top ten... putting him in the top ten in less than half of his monster (top ten stats-wise) seasons:

2013: 110 for 1499, with (only) 8 TDs
2014: 129 for 1698, with 13 TDs
2015: 136 for 1834, with 10 TDs

2. BILLIONS:
I'm pro-player. The owners bring in billions from television deals, and from jersey sales, and ticket sales, and et cetera. IMO the salary cap should be $50 million higher, putting a larger percentage back into the players' hands.

3. OVERPAID???
I wholeheartedly disagree. These athletes perform tasks that very few can even dream of doing. And, AB might be the best offensive player I've ever seen, and at a minimum, the most "special" since Barry Sanders. IMO he's is worth every single penny that he earns.

They are athletes playing a game....and a meaningless one at that in the grand scheme of things. There is one neurosurgeon for every 81000 people in North America and the median salary for these doctors (in the US) is $540,000 per year. I have no sympathy for sports figures complaining about money.

[steelreserve]

So, yeah, I'm going to side with the underpaid millionaire player over the ungodly rich billionaire owners.

You do know there's a thing called the salary cap, and that's what limits how much you can pay someone, right?

Voluntarily increasing a guy's cap hit by $8 million or so when you don't have to yet is suicidally stupid. If that's the difference between, say, keeping Bell next year or not, or adding the one missing piece or not, then I'll side with the billionaire owner.

I am much more interested in seeing the team try to win a championship than in making sure all the players are highly paid.

[teegre]

They are athletes playing a game....and a meaningless one at that in the grand scheme of things. There is one neurosurgeon for every 81000 people in North America and the median salary for these doctors (in the US) is $540,000 per year. I have no sympathy for sports figures complaining about money.

As far as importance goes, you are 100% correct. In a similar vein, police, fire, & teachers are all vastly underpaid, as well.

But... we are talking about discretionary income.

I doubt we'll see a stadium full of people paying to watch a heart transplant. Likewise, I've never seen anyone wear a jersey with "Dr. Goldfarb" on the back. But, people will routinely spend $500 on a Sunday for a game. More importantly, millions of us contribute to the billion-dollar television deal, by subscribing to DirecTV and/or cable.

As far as neuronsurgeons being underpaid, that is analogous to the NFL. Because, who ends up with all of that money that is paid to medical insurance companies? It certainly isn't the doctors. Yes, the doctors are indeed paid well, but not as much as they should be (considering how much money goes into HMOs).

- - - Updated - - -


You do know there's a thing called the salary cap, and that's what limits how much you can pay someone, right?


Read above:
(where I stated that IMO the cap should be $50 million higher)

[Craic]

1. TOP TEN
Top ten is not #1.
Top 5 is not #1.
For arguement's sake, let's say those next two years are "good enough". Okay... but, the previous three seasons were nowhere near the top ten... putting him in the top ten in less than half of his monster (top ten stats-wise) seasons:

2013: 110 for 1499, with (only) 8 TDs
2014: 129 for 1698, with 13 TDs
2015: 136 for 1834, with 10 TDs



Look at it in context. Brown was

2013: second in receptions, second in receiving yards, 17th in TD receptions. 103rd in reception yards per game - yeah, 103rd.
2014: first in receptions and yards, second in TDs, Doesn't register for yards per receptions.
2015: 1st in receptions, second in receiving yards, but tied for 10th with three other players in receiving touchdowns. He doesn't even REGISTER in the top ten for yards per reception.

When you have that type of fall off in half your categories in two out of three years, and then you're getting paid in the top ten, and then top five in the two following years, I think that's exactly where he should be paid.


2. BILLIONS:
I'm pro-player. The owners bring in billions from television deals, and from jersey sales, and ticket sales, and et cetera. IMO the salary cap should be $50 million higher, putting a larger percentage back into the players' hands.

And every girl should get a unicorn as a pet.

We're not talking about what should be, but about what is. And, what is, is a salary cap whereby the owners can pay only so much to the players as a whole. Pay too much to one player, and you're out of balance and the team begins losing games due to bad personnel in other positions.

(Note - first line wasn't meant to mock, rather, just illustrating the difference between want and reality).


3. OVERPAID???
I wholeheartedly disagree. These athletes perform tasks that very few can even dream of doing. And, AB might be the best offensive player I've ever seen, and at a minimum, the most "special" since Barry Sanders. IMO he's is worth every single penny that he earns.

Yes, for the 2012 year, he was overpaid. I didnt' say he was overpaid for 2013 or otherwise. But when you look at the stats, and his stats leading up to that year as well, he was very much overpaid. Again, the Rooneys took a big gamble on him, and it paid off. He got money he hadn't yet earned (didn't prove he was worth that much money yet leading up to 2012). If the Rooneys were willing to stand by him with that money then, he should be willing to stand by them now, especially as he's still getting paid in the top 10, and then top 5 WRs of the league - exactly where his stats say he should be paid, when you look at all of them, rather than just one or two, and look at them in context.

[polamalubeast]

If you think Brown will not be the highest paid WR in the NFL in his next contract, you will be disappointed!

Brown has been the best WR in the last three years.

[Born2Steel]

PAY THE MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[steelreserve]

As far as neuronsurgeons being underpaid, that is analogous to the NFL. Because, who ends up with all of that money that is paid to medical insurance companies? It certainly isn't the doctors. Yes, the doctors are indeed paid well, but not as much as they should be (considering how much money goes into HMOs).


Actually the insurance companies are just the fall guy that takes all the misdirected anger at healthcare costs. The real issue is that hospitals make up the price as they go along and charge whatever they want. Things that cost $200 get billed as $10,000. That's what drives up the cost for everyone, why people lose their life savings, etc. Insurance companies are really strictly regulated, pretty much like public water and electricity utilities. Especially in California. The government sets the percentage of how much money they can keep and how much has to be paid out. They have a huge incentive to fight high costs and are basically the main counterweight to runaway price increases.

I am not a big fan of insurance companies or anything, but directing all your anger at them over money just shows a lack of understanding of how the industry works.




Read above:
(where I stated that IMO the cap should be $50 million higher)

Could be, but take that up with the players' union, not me.

The cap is fine where it is if you ask me. Raising it $50 million, that's great, but who's going to ultimately be paying for that? Are the owners just going to hand over $1.5 billion a year and take it on the chin, without making it up somewhere else? No, that's asking for a 35% increase on the price of everything from tickets to TV packages, and it's also how you get more PSLs, and $100 parking, and other creative ways to stick it to the fans.

"Millionaire players against billionaire owners" is not the fight that's happening at all, not when thousandaire me is the ultimate source of ALL the money we're talking about. Guess whose side I'm going to take in that argument?

[teegre]

Look at it in context. Brown was

2013: second in receptions, second in receiving yards, 17th in TD receptions. 103rd in reception yards per game - yeah, 103rd.
2014: first in receptions and yards, second in TDs, Doesn't register for yards per receptions.
2015: 1st in receptions, second in receiving yards, but tied for 10th with three other players in receiving touchdowns. He doesn't even REGISTER in the top ten for yards per reception.

When you have that type of fall off in half your categories in two out of three years, and then you're getting paid in the top ten, and then top five in the two following years, I think that's exactly where he should be paid.



And every girl should get a unicorn as a pet.

We're not talking about what should be, but about what is. And, what is, is a salary cap whereby the owners can pay only so much to the players as a whole. Pay too much to one player, and you're out of balance and the team begins losing games due to bad personnel in other positions.

(Note - first line wasn't meant to mock, rather, just illustrating the difference between want and reality).



Yes, for the 2012 year, he was overpaid. I didnt' say he was overpaid for 2013 or otherwise. But when you look at the stats, and his stats leading up to that year as well, he was very much overpaid. Again, the Rooneys took a big gamble on him, and it paid off. He got money he hadn't yet earned (didn't prove he was worth that much money yet leading up to 2012). If the Rooneys were willing to stand by him with that money then, he should be willing to stand by them now, especially as he's still getting paid in the top 10, and then top 5 WRs of the league - exactly where his stats say he should be paid, when you look at all of them, rather than just one or two, and look at them in context.

STATS:
You can find any stat for any player wherein they drop off. But, in the major categories, AB is top three. For example, a few receivers may have had a 300 yard game; AB was the most consistent receiver for two entire seasons (5 rec, 50 yards per game for 35 games... a streak that was only broken because he had Vick throwing him the ball).

Speaking of which, remember that last season, AB put up those numbers even without BB playing for a stretch.

Lastly, a certain Steelers website used to harp on one (random) stat about LeBeau, while ignoring the most important stat (points allowed... where the Steelers were #1 in six out of seven seasons).

UNICORNS:
I think the analogy would be better with iPads in schools. Every little girl wants an iPad, but the principal is keeping most of them locked up on his garage all for himself.

Just because the system is broken doesn't mean that I have to agree with it.

That said, it is indeed the current system. You are correct that you cannot break the back for one player. Normally. But, this is a special case. AB is the most special player that I've seen since Barry Sanders. AB will surpass 175 receptions and 2000 yards at least once.

Likewise, I feel that in this ONE case, the Rooneys should "break" their rule, and renegotiate with AB this off-season. I'm not advocating for a hold out; I'm advocating for the Roobeys to take the initiative.

UNDERPAID:
2012: overpaid
2013: underpaid
Those two seasons wash each other out.

2014: underpaid
2015: underpaid

2016: top ten
2017: top five

Again, I'd like to see the Rooneys initiate the renegotiation.

[polamalubeast]

When you have 110,129 and 136 catch in a season, it's impossible to be in the top for yards per catch!...Yards per target is more important and Brown is among the top for this stats in the players who had at least 100 catchs in each in the last 3 seasons.

I would be so happy if Brown would have a contract extension right now.

I predict 2000 yards for him in 2016 if he and Roethlisberger are healthy and it's not a bold prediction!

[teegre]

Actually the insurance companies are just the fall guy that takes all the misdirected anger at healthcare costs. The real issue is that hospitals make up the price as they go along and charge whatever they want. Things that cost $200 get billed as $10,000. That's what drives up the cost for everyone, why people lose their life savings, etc. Insurance companies are really strictly regulated, pretty much like public water and electricity utilities. Especially in California. The government sets the percentage of how much money they can keep and how much has to be paid out. They have a huge incentive to fight high costs and are basically the main counterweight to runaway price increases.

I am not a big fan of insurance companies or anything, but directing all your anger at them over money just shows a lack of understanding of how the industry works.





Could be, but take that up with the players' union, not me.

The cap is fine where it is if you ask me. Raising it $50 million, that's great, but who's going to ultimately be paying for that? Are the owners just going to hand over $1.5 billion a year and take it on the chin, without making it up somewhere else? No, that's asking for a 35% increase on the price of everything from tickets to TV packages, and it's also how you get more PSLs, and $100 parking, and other creative ways to stick it to the fans.

"Millionaire players against billionaire owners" is not the fight that's happening at all, not when thousandaire me is the ultimate source of ALL the money we're talking about. Guess whose side I'm going to take in that argument?

Insurance companies, medical suppliers, pharmaceutical companies, the hospitals themselves... the money is being cyphoned off somewhere.

True. Us thousandaires will end up footing the bill... and, for whatever reason, we will gladly do it. The NFL is definitely a hot commodity. Of course we could all boycott the NFL (like I have done with MLB since 1994), but unlike baseball, football is actually worth watching.

[polamalubeast]

UNDERPAID:
2012: overpaid
2013: underpaid
Those two seasons wash each other out.

2014: underpaid
2015: underpaid

2016: top ten
2017: top five

In 2012, Brown was a bit overpaid and it was because he missed three games due to injury.

2013,2014 and 2015, he is underpaid, so much this is one of the best contracts in NFL history.

[steelreserve]

Insurance companies, medical suppliers, pharmaceutical companies, the hospitals themselves... the money is being cyphoned off somewhere.

The last three are all part of it. The insurance companies really are just a middleman who takes money from their customers and distributes it out to the others you mentioned according to what they're billed. The problem is a HUGE overinflation of cost all along the way from the people providing the healthcare. Not so much the individual doctors, pharmacists, etc., but the companies they work for.

Think about it: Is there any other industry where you go in and ask for a service, and there are no prices posted anywhere, and if you ask for the price nobody can tell you, and then at the end they hand you a bill for ... whatever ... and you're actually expected to pay it? Would that work at a restaurant, or a bar - go in, order some nachos and a pitcher of beer, shoot a couple games of pool, and then they hand you a bill for $1,500? You'd laugh in their face. Would that happen with an auto mechanic or a home repair contractor? No, there are law against it. THAT'S the problem. Runaway costs with absolutely no control and no expectations over them.

Anyway, getting back on topic:


True. Us thousandaires will end up footing the bill... and, for whatever reason, we will gladly do it. The NFL is definitely a hot commodity. Of course we could all boycott the NFL (like I have done with MLB since 1994), but unlike baseball, football is actually worth watching.

That's what happens in a monopoly. There's not really an equivalent to NFL football that you can watch. Going to games, paying for TV packages, etc., is expensive but we do it ... but asking for it to be MORE expensive so that the players can make more and the owners can make the same? That's not something I'd want.

[steelreserve]

In 2012, Brown was a bit overpaid and it was because he missed three games due to injury.

2013,2014 and 2015, he is underpaid, so much this is one of the best contracts in NFL history.


Well, when we give out historically bad contracts, the players aren't beating down Colbert's door and asking to hand back their signing bonuses so they can be paid more in line with their production.

So, should we suffer the full disadvantage of every bad contract decision ... and then when we make a good move, just forfeit the advantage we gained from making a good deal? Just tear up the contract and hand over the full-freight price out of some sense of altruism? That's a great way to run yourself out of cap space while you still have holes in your roster.

[teegre]

The last three are all part of it. The insurance companies really are just a middleman who takes money from their customers and distributes it out to the others you mentioned according to what they're billed. The problem is a HUGE overinflation of cost all along the way from the people providing the healthcare. Not so much the individual doctors, pharmacists, etc., but the companies they work for.

Think about it: Is there any other industry where you go in and ask for a service, and there are no prices posted anywhere, and if you ask for the price nobody can tell you, and then at the end they hand you a bill for ... whatever ... and you're actually expected to pay it? Would that work at a restaurant, or a bar - go in, order some nachos and a pitcher of beer, shoot a couple games of pool, and then they hand you a bill for $1,500? You'd laugh in their face. Would that happen with an auto mechanic or a home repair contractor? No, there are law against it. THAT'S the problem. Runaway costs with absolutely no control and no expectations over them.

Anyway, getting back on topic:



That's what happens in a monopoly. There's not really an equivalent to NFL football that you can watch. Going to games, paying for TV packages, etc., is expensive but we do it ... but asking for it to be MORE expensive so that the players can make more and the owners can make the same? That's not something I'd want.

MEDICAL:
I had never really noticed, until I switched employers (after 19 years), and had to get new medical. I looked into the HMO versus PPO. With the PPO, I'd have had to pay the first $3000... which was the first six doctors visits. Six. That is $500 per visit!?! WTF!?!

MONOPOLY:
It'd be nice for the owners to share a larger portion of the profits with the players. The owners are savvy, and divert those costs to the fans... which pits fans versus the players (when, it "should" be players versus owners). Again, they're savvy... which is why they're billionaires.

[polamalubeast]

Well, when we give out historically bad contracts, the players aren't beating down Colbert's door and asking to hand back their signing bonuses so they can be paid more in line with their production.

So, should we suffer the full disadvantage of every bad contract decision ... and then when we make a good move, just forfeit the advantage we gained from making a good deal? Just tear up the contract and hand over the full-freight price out of some sense of altruism? That's a great way to run yourself out of cap space while you still have holes in your roster.


The only very bad contract that the Steelers have given in last few years was the LaMarr Woodley contract and that contract would have been good if Woodley would not regressed.

If you want to see what is a good or bad contract, you have to look at the market!

Edit:I forget the contract of Cortez Allen too....

[Shoes]

Many of these players have the maturity of a 15 year old kid, stuffed in a man's body. That is they still have shit in their diapers. You sign a contract, you honor it. I don't care who the player is.

[polamalubeast]

Many of these players have the maturity of a 15 year old kid, stuffed in a man's body. That is they still have shit in their diapers. You sign a contract, you honor it. I don't care who the player is.

The teams not always honor the contracts!

As I said yesterday, the steelers are lucky that Brown does not make a holdout.

[steelreserve]

The teams not always honor the contracts!


That's why guaranteed money is such a big deal. The players know the name of the game, their agents know it, the teams know it. It's not unfair to anyone. Unless you think teams shouldn't be able to cut players who suck, "honoring" the contract means paying them the guaranteed money they agreed on, which in the case of players who are worth cutting, is usually more than fair.

[BigBenFan]

http://thehalkreport.sportsblog.com/posts/22483623/antonio-brown-feels-underpaid.html

[Craic]

If you think Brown will not be the highest paid WR in the NFL in his next contract, you will be disappointed!

Brown has been the best WR in the last three years.

We're talking current contract and work within that five year period, and whether the Rooneys should renegotiate it. This discussion had nothing to do with the size of the next contract. I think we all expect it to be massive, and deservedly so.


STATS:
You can find any stat for any player wherein they drop off. But, in the major categories, AB is top three. For example, a few receivers may have had a 300 yard game; AB was the most consistent receiver for two entire seasons (5 rec, 50 yards per game for 35 games... a streak that was only broken because he had Vick throwing him the ball).

Speaking of which, remember that last season, AB put up those numbers even without BB playing for a stretch.

. . .

Again, I'd like to see the Rooneys initiate the renegotiation.

True, but that massive drop also begs the question, how much of Antonio Brown is Brown's skills, and how much is it Ben's skills. We keep saying the Steelers have done a magnificent job choosing receivers, but is it really that, or is it Ben's ability to make receivers that good?

Note, I'm not saying Brown isn't a top talent. Rather, is that top three or four percent, the amount that seperates the really good form the absolute best, all Bron, or Brown plus Ben. The answer to that question. Is probably worth a couple of million a year.
.

- - - Updated - - -


http://thehalkreport.sportsblog.com/posts/22483623/antonio-brown-feels-underpaid.html
Article is wrong. It isn't including his restructuring bonus, which is another 4 million plus.

[teegre]

True, but that massive drop also begs the question, how much of Antonio Brown is Brown's skills, and how much is it Ben's skills. We keep saying the Steelers have done a magnificent job choosing receivers, but is it really that, or is it Ben's ability to make receivers that good?

Note, I'm not saying Brown isn't a top talent. Rather, is that top three or four percent, the amount that seperates the really good form the absolute best, all Bron, or Brown plus Ben. The answer to that question. Is probably worth a couple of million a year.

No receiver is any good, unless the ball is within a reasonable/catchable range... which Vick simply couldn't do.

Up to the catch, it's 75% BB. AB is good a separating and fighting for the ball (25%), but BB makes every receiver better (75%).

After the catch, it's 100% AB... and this is where he's special. Once the ball is in his hands, the play truly begins.

[steelreserve]

Note, I'm not saying Brown isn't a top talent. Rather, is that top three or four percent, the amount that seperates the really good form the absolute best, all Bron, or Brown plus Ben. The answer to that question. Is probably worth a couple of million a year.

With Ben: 11 games, 141 yards/game, 9 TDs
Without Ben: 5 games, 56 yards/game, 1 TD

Yeah, I think there was a difference ...

[polamalubeast]

With Ben: 11 games, 141 yards/game, 9 TDs
Without Ben: 5 games, 56 yards/game, 1 TD

Yeah, I think there was a difference ...



I blame 100% Vick on that.Roddy White was bad in two seasons with Vick with the falcons and White explode with Joey Harrington as QB in 2007.

Brown had 25 yards per quarter with Landry Jones and it includes a game of 124 yards in Kansas City.

[Born2Steel]

AB is in a real comfortable spot right now. Bryant was the beneficiary last year of team's having to focus on AB. This year Coates gets that role. Wheaton can if he will step up his consistency. But either way, AB will get the most targets and have the best chance at leading the team/league again. Another year of that type of performance will only help him get the contract we know he's going to want. And if he can get a SuperBowl/league MVP, damn the zeroes that will be on that check.

[steelreserve]

I blame 100% Vick on that.Roddy White was bad in two seasons with Vick with the falcons and White explode with Joey Harrington as QB in 2007.

Brown had 25 yards per quarter with Landry Jones and it includes a game of 124 yards in Kansas City.


The whole point was that having a QB like Ben helps and having a bad QB hurts. So that kind of proves that point. Not that Brown is any less good, but that a good QB helps him really stand out.

Maybe not every QB on other teams is as bad as Vick, but if Brown was catching passes from Geno Smith or Brock Osweiler ... yeah, he's struggling to break 1,000 yards. He might do it anyway, but it'll be close.

[polamalubeast]

The whole point was that having a QB like Ben helps and having a bad QB hurts. So that kind of proves that point. Not that Brown is any less good, but that a good QB helps him really stand out.

Maybe not every QB on other teams is as bad as Vick, but if Brown was catching passes from Geno Smith or Brock Osweiler ... yeah, he's struggling to break 1,000 yards. He might do it anyway, but it'll be close.



Brown could easily have 1200-1500 yards with a QB who is not bad as Vick.I mean, Emmanuel Sanders had a very good season last year with bad QB in Denver.

This is certain that the efficiency would not be the same for Brown and the offense would not be the same without Ben, that's for sure, but the stats for Brown would still be great if it would be with a QB as Brian Hoyer.Surely not 1600-1800 yards with great efficiency but 1200-1500 yards would be a possibility.

Brown is so good and looks at the WR that had at least 1,000 yards in a season last year, it's not just the WR that had a very good or elite QB who had at least 1,000 yards ....The great WR just need their QB is not as bad as Tim Tebow or an old Michael Vick to be very good.Brown was solid with Landry Jones.

[Shoes]

The teams not always honor the contracts!

As I said yesterday, the steelers are lucky that Brown does not make a holdout.

I could be wrong, but don't recall Miller ever having an issue with money or contracts and I believe it was the same on the team side.

[GBMelBlount]

If he raps about it then I'll believe it.

[st33lersguy]

In 2012, Brown was a bit overpaid and it was because he missed three games due to injury.


It also should be noted that Brown was still the no. 2 guy behind Wide Receiver Failed Conditioning Tests and I think Mr. Failed Conditioning Tests' mopey attitude may have rubbed off on the locker room

[Craic]

No receiver is any good, unless the ball is within a reasonable/catchable range... which Vick simply couldn't do.

Up to the catch, it's 75% BB. AB is good a separating and fighting for the ball (25%), but BB makes every receiver better (75%).

After the catch, it's 100% AB... and this is where he's special. Once the ball is in his hands, the play truly begins.

Except, it's not (http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/yards-after-the-catch/2015/customize/). Even if you limit the field to WRs whose had 60 receptions or more last year, then look at average YAC yards, Antonio Brown is 19th of 36 on that list - - in the BOTTOM HALF. Sure, he breaks some big ones, but that's because he gets the ball so much. But on AVERAGE, he's not nearly as effective YAC than 18 other NFL wide receivers (2015).

Again, none of this is to say he's not a great WR, but rather, that he still has areas that aren't as good as we think they are. And, I'll fully admit that part of this average is probably due to the fact that he is good at catching balls in traffic as well. But again, when we're talking average, the balls caught in traffic will balance out those not caught in traffic, especially when you're catching as many as he is.

[polamalubeast]

It also should be noted that Brown was still the no. 2 guy behind Wide Receiver Failed Conditioning Tests and I think Mr. Failed Conditioning Tests' mopey attitude may have rubbed off on the locker room

agree.2012 was a terrible year for everybody.The only reason why the Steelers have not had a losing record in 2012, it was because Ben was unbelievable in the 3rd down and long before his injury.

[teegre]

Except, it's not (http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/yards-after-the-catch/2015/customize/). Even if you limit the field to WRs whose had 60 receptions or more last year, then look at average YAC yards, Antonio Brown is 19th of 36 on that list - - in the BOTTOM HALF. Sure, he breaks some big ones, but that's because he gets the ball so much. But on AVERAGE, he's not nearly as effective YAC than 18 other NFL wide receivers (2015).

I'm not being argumentative (nor obtuse) when I say that I see AB listed as 4th on the list.

What at am I missing???

[GBMelBlount]

Except, it's not (http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/yards-after-the-catch/2015/customize/). Even if you limit the field to WRs whose had 60 receptions or more last year, then look at average YAC yards, Antonio Brown is 19th of 36 on that list - - in the BOTTOM HALF. Sure, he breaks some big ones, but that's because he gets the ball so much. But on AVERAGE, he's not nearly as effective YAC than 18 other NFL wide receivers (2015).

Again, none of this is to say he's not a great WR, but rather, that he still has areas that aren't as good as we think they are. And, I'll fully admit that part of this average is probably due to the fact that he is good at catching balls in traffic as well. But again, when we're talking average, the balls caught in traffic will balance out those not caught in traffic, especially when you're catching as many as he is.

Great stat.

It seems to me when AB is hit in stride and has some daylight he is amazing.

My guess is that he makes those really tough catches others don't, blanketed and in traffic (with nothing after the catch,) and that significantly drops his YAC average.

Furthering this, I would be very interested to see his catches as a percentage of targets as compared to the rest of the league.

[polamalubeast]

Great stat.

It seems to me when AB is hit in stride and has some daylight he is amazing.

My guess is that he makes those really tough catches others don't, blanketed and in traffic (with nothing after the catch,) and that significantly drops his YAC average.

Furthering this, I would be very interested to see his catches as a percentage of targets as compared to the rest of the league....

If you want to watch his highlights of last year....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnpFHxfAT-4

[Craic]

I'm not being argumentative (nor obtuse) when I say that I see AB listed as 4th on the list.

What at am I missing???

I did the same thing at first. Sorry, I forgot to say, you have to click on the YAC average so it'll sort it that way for you. He was fourth in YAC total, but 19th in YAC average. (Also, you have to add the WR filter and the 60 catchers or higher filter, or AB ends up something like 60th on that list. I filtered those out because it's unfair to compare him to some guy he caught three balls and ran one of them 40 yards, all season. Also because it's unfair to compare him to RBs catching the ball in the flat with yards of green to run.

[Craic]

Great stat.

It seems to me when AB is hit in stride and has some daylight he is amazing.

My guess is that he makes those really tough catches others don't, blanketed and in traffic (with nothing after the catch,) and that significantly drops his YAC average.

Furthering this, I would be very interested to see his catches as a percentage of targets as compared to the rest of the league.

As I said in my post, I suspect that's part of it. He's basically tied for 5th spot with two other receivers (only a difference of .5 percent between the three, but AB is highest among them) for percent of receptions from targets.

[fansince'76]

Well, when we give out historically bad contracts, the players aren't beating down Colbert's door and asking to hand back their signing bonuses so they can be paid more in line with their production.

This. When they can get the lion's share of Woodley's guaranteed money back (as one recent and very painful example), which incidentally left this team hamstrung for YEARS salary cap-wise, then we'll talk about AB getting $15 million per.

[pczach]

Any time AB wants to hold out, he can. He will then make no money for any time not with the team. He will also be sticking it to the team that gave him a BIG contract when he hadn't really earned it yet, and they showed him that they believed in him.

He went out and bought his Bentley, and was like a pig in shit with the money he was making.

He has earned every penny of that contract, but what if he had gotten injured? What if he had a catastrophic knee injury that limited his ability for the rest of his career or kept him off the field for long periods of time?

The Steelers would have still been paying him his money, and it would have been like stealing. Nobody ever talks about the team eating the shit when players get injured or just flat out stink after signing contracts. Many players also just start mailing it in when they get the big contract and have the team by the short hairs.

The team takes on a ton of risk every time they sign a player to a lucrative contract. They must pay the guaranteed money, and they take the cap hit on that contract that can have a huge effect on the cap and composition of the team for the length of that contract. Even if they cut the player or trade him, the team is responsible for that contract and the financial ramifications of it for years.

The player is not the only party taking risks. That's all I'm saying. People seem to either not understand that, or just choose to ignore it because they see NFL ownership as billionaires that can afford it. It's much more complicated than that, and that's because it is all about winning. That's what great organizations do, and it's largely because of how they evaluate players and pay them accordingly based on projections of their talent, desire, and future performance.

[teegre]

I did the same thing at first. Sorry, I forgot to say, you have to click on the YAC average so it'll sort it that way for you. He was fourth in YAC total, but 19th in YAC average. (Also, you have to add the WR filter and the 60 catchers or higher filter, or AB ends up something like 60th on that list. I filtered those out because it's unfair to compare him to some guy he caught three balls and ran one of them 40 yards, all season. Also because it's unfair to compare him to RBs catching the ball in the flat with yards of green to run.

Ah... got it.

As I'm pushing the "YAC per reception" button, I notice some things:

1. The top player on the list is Tyrell Williams, who I saw score an 80-yard TD... and, only one other reception. My thought (which you also thought of) about that is that players with fewer receptions can have their YAC average skewed by one long TD. I'm wondering how many guys ahead of AB had a long (80 yard) TD, which inflated their YAC average...

2. 60+ receptions is a good start, because after that many receptions, it sort of eliminates the chance that one long TD would overly influence their YAC average. That said, AB had double that number (136), which would almost assuredly eliminate any/all long receptions for him. Still... let's look.

3. TANGENT: The second and third receivers on that list is not until 60 & 61... then, two more at 75 and then 83. We've already agreed that players with few receptions can have a long TD skew their YAC average. That said, the fact that no meaningful WR shows up in the top 120... it makes one question the usefulness of this stat.

Back to receivers with 60+ receptions.

4. ODB, Tate, Cobb, Hilton, & Landry are the top five. After that, it's Cooper, Edelman, Hurns, Snead, Matthews, Benjamin... all of whom are very good receivers, but most of whom (except Edelman) I recall having at least one long TD. It may have only been one (or three in ODB's case), but it might be enough to bump their YAC average from 4.3 (AB's average) to up a little over 5... especially since AB had an extra 60 receptions (point #2) to even out his average.

5. Eye-ball test. I've never seen a receiver like AB. Maybe he only gains 4.3 yards going forward, and 20 yards going sideways. IDK... stats or not, I haven't seen a player with his jukability since Barry.

[Craic]

Ah... got it.

As I'm pushing the "YAC per reception" button, I notice some things:

1. The top player on the list is Tyrell Williams, who I saw score an 80-yard TD... and, only one other reception. My thought (which you also thought of) about that is that players with fewer receptions can have their YAC average skewed by one long TD. I'm wondering how many guys ahead of AB had a long (80 yard) TD, which inflated their YAC average...

2. 60+ receptions is a good start, because after that many receptions, it sort of eliminates the chance that one long TD would overly influence their YAC average. That said, AB had double that number (136), which would almost assuredly eliminate any/all long receptions for him. Still... let's look.

3. TANGENT: The second and third receivers on that list is not until 60 & 61... then, two more at 75 and then 83. We've already agreed that players with few receptions can have a long TD skew their YAC average. That said, the fact that no meaningful WR shows up in the top 120... it makes one question the usefulness of this stat.

Back to receivers with 60+ receptions.

4. ODB, Tate, Cobb, Hilton, & Landry are the top five. After that, it's Cooper, Edelman, Hurns, Snead, Matthews, Benjamin... all of whom are very good receivers, but most of whom (except Edelman) I recall having at least one long TD. It may have only been one (or three in ODB's case), but it might be enough to bump their YAC average from 4.3 (AB's average) to up a little over 5... especially since AB had an extra 60 receptions (point #2) to even out his average.

5. Eye-ball test. I've never seen a receiver like AB. Maybe he only gains 4.3 yards going forward, and 20 yards going sideways. IDK... stats or not, I haven't seen a player with his jukability since Barry.

I may disagree with you, but those are honest and fair assessments.

1. YAC averages


YAC averages can definitely be inflated, which is why I went to the 60+ receptions. As for AB having double that, plus another 16, it also means AB had double that, plus another sixteen to hit long runs after catching the ball.

That said, he had twenty-five 20+ yard runs, and eight 40+ yard runs. Thus, he hit a 20+ yard run 1 out of every 4.12 times he caught the ball. By comparison:

ODB: 19, 8 on 96 receptions. That means he hit a 20+ yard run 1 out of ever 3.56 times he caught the ball. (I'll just put this stat as: 1/3.56)
Tate: 7, 1 on 90 receptions. 1/11.25
Hilton: 17, 6, 69 receptions. 1/3
Landry: 10, 3, 110 receptions. 1/8.46
Cooper: 16, 6, 72 receptions. 1/3.27
Edelman: 8, 1, 61 receptions. 1/6.78
Hurns: 19, 3, 64 receptions. 1/2.9
Snead: 15, 3, 69 receptions. 1/3.28
Matthews: 14, 3, 85 receptions. 1/5
Benjamin: 12, 6, 68 receptions. 3.78

So, six players had more 20+ yard runs than Brown did, but that also means six players were more dangerous for breaking long runs than Brown. Doing it an average of once every 3.3 plays, with the best doing it once every 2.9 plays, compared to Brown's 4.12. That puts him pretty much in the middle of the pack (10 listed above, with Brown being 11). So, half the players had more long run gains than Brown, half the players gained more yards on shorter runs across the board than Brown.

2. Barry Sanders




Honestly I disagree with you here. We have a better Juker/runner on our own team than Brown, and that's Bell. His problem (on field) is that he doesn't have break-away speed, so he'll get chased down. But I'd say he's better than Brown in the Juke department.


3. Overall



So, where does this leave my assessment of Brown? I have no problem saying he's one of the best in the NFL. I have no problem even saying that when you put together the entire picture, and then look at trajectory, at the end of his career, Brown may be in the GOAT discussion, or at the very least GOAT-After Rice discussion. But leading up to this point, while his output the last two or three years makes it look as though he's underpaid; the totality of the contract, how much he still have to prove when he signed it, and the advances/restructuring bonuses he received lead me to conclude the overall contract was, and is still fair, although weighing to the side of the Steelers organization at this point.

[teegre]

I may disagree with you, but those are honest and fair assessments.

1. YAC averages
YAC averages can definitely be inflated, which is why I went to the 60+ receptions. As for AB having double that, plus another 16, it also means AB had double that, plus another sixteen to hit long runs after catching the ball.

That said, he had twenty-five 20+ yard runs, and eight 40+ yard runs. Thus, he hit a 20+ yard run 1 out of every 4.12 times he caught the ball. By comparison:

ODB: 19, 8 on 96 receptions. That means he hit a 20+ yard run 1 out of ever 3.56 times he caught the ball. (I'll just put this stat as: 1/3.56)
Tate: 7, 1 on 90 receptions. 1/11.25
Hilton: 17, 6, 69 receptions. 1/3
Landry: 10, 3, 110 receptions. 1/8.46
Cooper: 16, 6, 72 receptions. 1/3.27
Edelman: 8, 1, 61 receptions. 1/6.78
Hurns: 19, 3, 64 receptions. 1/2.9
Snead: 15, 3, 69 receptions. 1/3.28
Matthews: 14, 3, 85 receptions. 1/5
Benjamin: 12, 6, 68 receptions. 3.78

So, six players had more 20+ yard runs than Brown did, but that also means six players were more dangerous for breaking long runs than Brown. Doing it an average of once every 3.3 plays, with the best doing it once every 2.9 plays, compared to Brown's 4.12. That puts him pretty much in the middle of the pack (10 listed above, with Brown being 11). So, half the players had more long run gains than Brown, half the players gained more yards on shorter runs across the board than Brown.

2. Barry Sanders
Honestly I disagree with you here. We have a better Juker/runner on our own team than Brown, and that's Bell. His problem (on field) is that he doesn't have break-away speed, so he'll get chased down. But I'd say he's better than Brown in the Juke department.


3. Overall

So, where does this leave my assessment of Brown? I have no problem saying he's one of the best in the NFL. I have no problem even saying that when you put together the entire picture, and then look at trajectory, at the end of his career, Brown may be in the GOAT discussion, or at the very least GOAT-After Rice discussion. But leading up to this point, while his output the last two or three years makes it look as though he's underpaid; the totality of the contract, how much he still have to prove when he signed it, and the advances/restructuring bonuses he received lead me to conclude the overall contract was, and is still fair, although weighing to the side of the Steelers organization at this point.





1) STATS
Very nice. That's a good compilation (a lot of hard work).

A few weeks ago, I was on Wijipedia, looking at passing records. The names on there were the ones that we'd all expect:

Jerry Rice, Jerry Rice, Don Hutson, Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, Marvin Harrison, Jerry Rice, Jerry Rice, Don Hutson, Jerry Rice, AB, AB, AB, Marvin Harrison, AB, AB, AB, Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, AB, AB, AB...

2) JUKES
I'm thinking specifically of the play against the Ravens, where AB stopped on a dime, turned 45 degrees, and the entire Ravens defense went right past him.

3) OVERALL
I'll concede that 2012-2015 was a "fair" deal for both parties. My hope is that the Rooneys take the initiative in this ONE case, and extend AB right now...

Because, I see the next two years being historic (and, AB should be paid accordingly):

2016: 168 for 2100, 17 TD, plus a SuperBowl MVP
2017: 155 for 2200, 21 TDs, plus the league MVP

[Psycho Ward 86]

geez, some of these arguments against AB are ridiculous. i dont think redoing his contract 2 years out will set a precedent of other players being huge cry babies about their contracts too. people understand how historic the numbers he's putting up are. he's going to be the 26th highest paid receiver in the league. come on...AB has been nothing but a class act on and off the field, dont keep the best player arguably in the league, distracted. especially with the distraction already instigated by Bryant and Bell. One less thing for the team to worry about. And stop worrying about the salary cap so much. Ben most likely only has 3-4 years left, and it shouldnt surprise anyone if he hangs it up/becomes too injured to be effective sooner than that. At that point, the superbowl isnt realistic unless we get insanely lucky with another franchise QB. By the time Ben is gone, any high cap hit from AB's contract will be easy to swallow becaue our team will be going from superbowl contender to competitive, but not good enough to win it all.

From what ive read, we have tons of cap space anyways for the next couple years. But we have some big contracts to do?? Dont we always? No problem, we'll do those, and kick the money down the road if need be. The goal is just to keep a Ben Roethlisberger helmed team as loaded as possible as far as im concerned.

[Mojouw]

Extend the contract and give the man about the most deserved raise in the history of the NFL. Not doing it pisses off your best non suspended offensive weapon and sets a terrible precedent for other players.

Out perform your contract? Tough. The Steelers will never take your side. Now imagine what an agent can do with that bit of information and the pliable mind of a 25 year old coming off his rookie deal? Not to mention free agents.

[polamalubeast]

geez, some of these arguments against AB are ridiculous. i dont think redoing his contract 2 years out will set a precedent of other players being huge cry babies about their contracts too. people understand how historic the numbers he's putting up are. he's going to be the 26th highest paid receiver in the league. come on...AB has been nothing but a class act on and off the field, dont keep the best player arguably in the league, distracted. especially with the distraction already instigated by Bryant and Bell. One less thing for the team to worry about. And stop worrying about the salary cap so much. Ben most likely only has 3-4 years left, and it shouldnt surprise anyone if he hangs it up/becomes too injured to be effective sooner than that. At that point, the superbowl isnt realistic unless we get insanely lucky with another franchise QB. By the time Ben is gone, any high cap hit from AB's contract will be easy to swallow becaue our team will be going from superbowl contender to competitive, but not good enough to win it all.

From what ive read, we have tons of cap space anyways for the next couple years. But we have some big contracts to do?? Dont we always? No problem, we'll do those, and kick the money down the road if need be. The goal is just to keep a Ben Roethlisberger helmed team as loaded as possible as far as im concerned.

Agree with you on Brown.


We the fans and the front office of the steelers should feel very lucky that Brown has a great attitude and he does not holdout.

Brown is a top 5 players in this league right now and his salary at the moment is not even close to being in the top 5 in the NFL, even if we exclude the QB and he would have every reason to make a holdout, but fortunately for the steelers,Brown is a class act

And the salary cap is far from being a problem right now and superstars like Brown you have to keep them regardless of the price

[Craic]

1) STATS
Very nice. That's a good compilation (a lot of hard work).

A few weeks ago, I was on Wijipedia, looking at passing records. The names on there were the ones that we'd all expect:

Jerry Rice, Jerry Rice, Don Hutson, Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, Marvin Harrison, Jerry Rice, Jerry Rice, Don Hutson, Jerry Rice, AB, AB, AB, Marvin Harrison, AB, AB, AB, Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, AB, AB, AB...

2) JUKES
I'm thinking specifically of the play against the Ravens, where AB stopped on a dime, turned 45 degrees, and the entire Ravens defense went right past him.

3) OVERALL
I'll concede that 2012-2015 was a "fair" deal for both parties. My hope is that the Rooneys take the initiative in this ONE case, and extend AB right now...

Because, I see the next two years being historic (and, AB should be paid accordingly):

2016: 168 for 2100, 17 TD, plus a SuperBowl MVP
2017: 155 for 2200, 21 TDs, plus the league MVP

Hmm . . . so, what you're saying is, "Pay him now, before we have to pay him even more money later on." Is that right? I still don't like breaking precedent, but that's an argument that I think carries a lot of weight.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Extend the contract and give the man about the most deserved raise in the history of the NFL. Not doing it pisses off your best non suspended offensive weapon and sets a terrible precedent for other players.

Out perform your contract? Tough. The Steelers will never take your side. Now imagine what an agent can do with that bit of information and the pliable mind of a 25 year old coming off his rookie deal? Not to mention free agents.

THIS. If anything, not giving AB a new contract sets a bad precedent on the other side of the coin.

[Craic]

THIS. If anything, not giving AB a new contract sets a bad precedent on the other side of the coin.

I'm not nearly as worried about that as I am this: "Hey, look, your teammate just got a massive pay increase for making noise. Make some noise and you'll get one too." THAT, I absolutely can hear agents putting into the mind of players. (Not to mention, one of the reasons it looks like Brown DID get his big contract early on--bigger than he earned at the time--was because he was being quiet, while Wallace was making noise. Think about the message THAT sent. It's why the Steelers seldom have lockerroom drama like some other teams I could mention).

Also, what does it say to the other 51 players on the team when the Steelers refuse to negotiate their contracts early? I don't care about how good Brown is. You and I might think it's a one-off, but I guarantee you players and agents WON'T look at it that way.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I'm not nearly as worried about that as I am this: "Hey, look, your teammate just got a massive pay increase for making noise. Make some noise and you'll get one too." THAT, I absolutely can hear agents putting into the mind of players. (Not to mention, one of the reasons it looks like Brown DID get his big contract early on--bigger than he earned at the time--was because he was being quiet, while Wallace was making noise. Think about the message THAT sent. It's why the Steelers seldom have lockerroom drama like some other teams I could mention).

Also, what does it say to the other 51 players on the team when the Steelers refuse to negotiate their contracts early? I don't care about how good Brown is. You and I might think it's a one-off, but I guarantee you players and agents WON'T look at it that way.

when's the last time a player deserved a raise THIS badly + didnt get it + and it ended badly? AB is the 2nd most important player on this team. at a fundamental level, youre worrying about the salary cap at the end of the day. theres nothing we will struggle that badly to handle the next 3-4 years, and thats all that really matters right now because it probably isnt realistic to expect Ben to be playing at a high level for that long. and no, this isnt the same as when we went to salary cap purgatory circa 2010 to "keep our super bowl window open." it was always going to be open with Ben around. But now we truly wont have that open for much longer. if im the steelers front office, im throwing all the chips on the table for this one.

1) Class act? Check
2) Best in the league? Check
3) Historic all time numbers? Check
4) Highly motivated player? Check
5) Tons of salary cap room in upcoming years? Check
6) An aging Ben? Check
7) Way too many offseason distractions already? Check

I see far more reasons to pull the trigger on this than not

[Mojouw]

I'm not nearly as worried about that as I am this: "Hey, look, your teammate just got a massive pay increase for making noise. Make some noise and you'll get one too." THAT, I absolutely can hear agents putting into the mind of players. (Not to mention, one of the reasons it looks like Brown DID get his big contract early on--bigger than he earned at the time--was because he was being quiet, while Wallace was making noise. Think about the message THAT sent. It's why the Steelers seldom have lockerroom drama like some other teams I could mention).

Also, what does it say to the other 51 players on the team when the Steelers refuse to negotiate their contracts early? I don't care about how good Brown is. You and I might think it's a one-off, but I guarantee you players and agents WON'T look at it that way.

They can try but it wouldn't be the same unless that player has outperformed all other players at their position for multiple years running.

I seem to remember Hines Ward got a new deal. The world failed to end.

[Craic]

They can try but it wouldn't be the same unless that player has outperformed all other players at their position for multiple years running.

I seem to remember Hines Ward got a new deal. The world failed to end.

Nope.

Hines Ward was in the final year of his contract. He felt cheated because the organization said they'd take care of him, but they were dragging their feet on a new contract. Not the same at all, especially since they were in the 1 year window.

[polamalubeast]

759871489990651904

759871858699300864

759872077532844032

759872402658566144

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759871489990651904

100% agree with Brown.

[Mojouw]

Nope.

Hines Ward was in the final year of his contract. He felt cheated because the organization said they'd take care of him, but they were dragging their feet on a new contract. Not the same at all, especially since they were in the 1 year window.

Tweet posted by Polamalubeast sums up what I am trying to get at. And you are right about the years on the Ward situation.

But players know that teams will cut them in heartbeat for any number of reasons. Players need to also know that when you are lighting the entire NFL up like it is a video game that the team will also take care of you.

[polamalubeast]

759881450036408320

Agree...Many players in his position would Holding Out.It's ridiculous the way that Brown has outplayed his contract in the past three years(more than 5000 yards in the last 3 years and top 2 in yards and catch in each of his 3 seasons)and that will be 4 this year if he has no new contract.

[Butch]

I am not a numbers expert, but I see no problem with us signing AB this year and giving Ben some consistency at the WR position. I always liked what I saw from Ben with Santonio and never thought we would have someone just as special so quickly as we did. Besides I don't think doing it one year early is that big of a deal. I can understand why we didn't get it done last year, but this year is different in my eyes.

[polamalubeast]

I am not a numbers expert, but I see no problem with us signing AB this year and giving Ben some consistency at the WR position. I always liked what I saw from Ben with Santonio and never thought we would have someone just as special so quickly as we did. Besides I don't think doing it one year early is that big of a deal. I can understand why we didn't get it done last year, but this year is different in my eyes.

Especially that Colbert and Tomlin had a new contract last year with two years remaining in their contract.

[steelreserve]

when's the last time a player deserved a raise THIS badly + didnt get it + and it ended badly? AB is the 2nd most important player on this team. at a fundamental level, youre worrying about the salary cap at the end of the day. theres nothing we will struggle that badly to handle the next 3-4 years, and thats all that really matters right now because it probably isnt realistic to expect Ben to be playing at a high level for that long. and no, this isnt the same as when we went to salary cap purgatory circa 2010 to "keep our super bowl window open." it was always going to be open with Ben around. But now we truly wont have that open for much longer. if im the steelers front office, im throwing all the chips on the table for this one.

1) Class act? Check
2) Best in the league? Check
3) Historic all time numbers? Check
4) Highly motivated player? Check
5) Tons of salary cap room in upcoming years? Check
6) An aging Ben? Check
7) Way too many offseason distractions already? Check

I see far more reasons to pull the trigger on this than not


How about 8) He's not going to hold out even if he doesn't get a new deal, and you just give him one next offseason, when by the way, he still is not a free agent.

There, the other 7 reasons are now irrelevant.



They can try but it wouldn't be the same unless that player has outperformed all other players at their position for multiple years running.

I seem to remember Hines Ward got a new deal. The world failed to end.


Every player's agent thinks he's outperforming all other players at his position. Or if not, he's about to. And either way, that's what his pay should be based on.

[Craic]

I wish he'd just shut up about it and go about his business. He'll have his chance next year to cash in. And, the more he stays quiet and goes about his work, the more likely the Rooneys will give him his big payday.

[polamalubeast]

How about 8) He's not going to hold out even if he doesn't get a new deal, and you just give him one next offseason, when by the way, he still is not a free agent.

There, the other 7 reasons are now irrelevant.





Every player's agent thinks he's outperforming all other players at his position. Or if not, he's about to. And either way, that's what his pay should be based on.

In the case of Brown,this is true.Please, the fact that Brown is the 26th highest paid WR in the NFL, this is ridiculous.

I hate when the steelers are too stubborn...Colbert had an extension with two years remaining on his contract last year ....

[Mojouw]

How about 8) He's not going to hold out even if he doesn't get a new deal, and you just give him one next offseason, when by the way, he still is not a free agent.

There, the other 7 reasons are now irrelevant.





Every player's agent thinks he's outperforming all other players at his position. Or if not, he's about to. And either way, that's what his pay should be based on.

But with AB, the #'s, the game tape, the evaluation of outside experts, etc ALL universally agree that AB is the BEST WR in the league.

His past two seasons have been the most prolific # of catches ever - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_year_by_year.htm
AB's yards per game was historic last year and that counts multiple games with Landry Jones and Vick at the helm - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_yds_per_g_single_season.htm
On top that he is catching an almost unbelievable 70+% of his targets - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrowAn04.htm

Bottom line, there is no way to slice this that AB is not one of the most underpaid players in the league. I do not want to wait for the NEXT contract to pay him for past performance. That is stupid cap management. Extend and pay now, that way when he is over 30 he isn't carrying a cap figure of 12+ million dollars.

[polamalubeast]

760190464276312064

[Born2Steel]

Just to throw this out there....

The Steelers FO have a very good track record with WRs and contracts. I think they have a number, and when the WR wants to go over that number, the WR is allowed to walk for his payday. I don't believe that rationale gets thrown out for AB. Also, if our current crop of WRs pan out as expected, Bryant, Coates, Phillips, all continue to improve, and the TEs play to expectation, AB becomes another casualty of becoming worth more than he can earn here. I don't see a huge, long term contract at this time. Of course, the Steelers have already paid him once to keep him. Guess we'll see.

[Psycho Ward 86]

How about 8) He's not going to hold out even if he doesn't get a new deal, and you just give him one next offseason, when by the way, he still is not a free agent.

There, the other 7 reasons are now irrelevant.





Every player's agent thinks he's outperforming all other players at his position. Or if not, he's about to. And either way, that's what his pay should be based on.

you're exactly the kind of employer that no one would ever want to work for. the 7 reasons stand. every player's agent be damned, Brown IS outperforming all other players at his position, and arguably his entire generation of receivers. Also you never answered my initial question. its important to put Antonio's situation into context with precedent situations.

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I wish he'd just shut up about it and go about his business. He'll have his chance next year to cash in. And, the more he stays quiet and goes about his work, the more likely the Rooneys will give him his big payday.

lol, you say that like the steelers front office has him by the balls. you have it backwards

[Psycho Ward 86]

Just to throw this out there....

The Steelers FO have a very good track record with WRs and contracts. I think they have a number, and when the WR wants to go over that number, the WR is allowed to walk for his payday. I don't believe that rationale gets thrown out for AB. Also, if our current crop of WRs pan out as expected, Bryant, Coates, Phillips, all continue to improve, and the TEs play to expectation, AB becomes another casualty of becoming worth more than he can earn here. I don't see a huge, long term contract at this time. Of course, the Steelers have already paid him once to keep him. Guess we'll see.

name every receiver better than Antonio Brown in the past 20 years. now count how many are currently in the hall of fame. now count how many are shoe ins for the hall of fame. if you have any receivers left over, you are insane. you tear pages out of the rulebook for the truly once a generation level players. and holy hell is that a lot of ifs. Bryant cant even get on the field, Green hasnt proven he can stay healthy at all, Coates has caught 3 nfl passes, JJ has scarcely caught more, and Phillips hasnt even made an nfl roster. AB is the 2nd most important player on this team, and id very much like to give our most important player all the weapons at his disposal until he retires.

players take time to develop as well. we could continue our streak of successful receiver draft picks but what good does it do to give Ben these raw receivers in the twilight of his career? Let him run with his mustangs, not a 1980 volvo that needs fixing

[steelreserve]

But with AB, the #'s, the game tape, the evaluation of outside experts, etc ALL universally agree that AB is the BEST WR in the league.

His past two seasons have been the most prolific # of catches ever - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_year_by_year.htm
AB's yards per game was historic last year and that counts multiple games with Landry Jones and Vick at the helm - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_yds_per_g_single_season.htm
On top that he is catching an almost unbelievable 70+% of his targets - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrowAn04.htm

Bottom line, there is no way to slice this that AB is not one of the most underpaid players in the league. I do not want to wait for the NEXT contract to pay him for past performance. That is stupid cap management. Extend and pay now, that way when he is over 30 he isn't carrying a cap figure of 12+ million dollars.


I think you're fooling yourself if you think he's getting any less money per year if he signs now; we're paying him for past performance, future potential, the whole shooting match either way. I would be shocked if it's not in the neighborhood of a $14M average, whether we sign him this offseason or next offseason. So the only thing we have the power to affect is whether we start paying him that much money now, or a year from now - and as long as he's going to actually show up and play, doing it now has NO benefit to us.

I wouldn't be opposed to using whatever leftover cap space we have this year to help the Brown situation - IF it doesn't interfere with any other moves we want to make in the next month or two, like extending another key player. But doing it just as a nice gesture if it has a real effect on our other workings? Forget it.

Also (and this is the pessimistic view) we have no idea what the hell is going to happen between now and next offseason. All signs indicate that Brown is a great guy with an excellent work ethic and incredible durability. But that can all change with no warning. You could wake up tomorrow morning and read that he got run over and his leg is torn up beyond repair. Or he had an epiphany and decided to retire because of the danger of concussions; or he got into some bad shit trying to help a shady friend or relative, and that spirals out of control TMZ style as the season progresses; or for all we know, is suddenly facing a yearlong ban for PEDs. You think you know, but you just don't. Then we'd be glad we didn't pull the trigger early. Maybe it's a 5% chance, maybe it's a 1% chance, but it's not zero.

[Craic]

you're exactly the kind of employer that no one would ever want to work for. the 7 reasons stand. every player's agent be damned, Brown IS outperforming all other players at his position, and arguably his entire generation of receivers. Also you never answered my initial question. its important to put Antonio's situation into context with precedent situations.

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lol, you say that like the steelers front office has him by the balls. you have it backwards

No. I say the Steelers front office rewards people who keep quiet and don't try to bail on contracts they've signed two or three years in advance. And don't give the "But the owners get to bail . . ." crap. They don't, not without penalty. That's what "guaranteed money" is, and why players agree to such contracts.

And speaking of having things backwards . . . you talk about an employer. As an employer for contractors (say, someone working on my home) I get to fire anyone at anytime provided I paid the guaranteed portion of their contract. Furthermore, My last contracted employment when I was the employee had a clause that gave the employer the right to fire me whenever if they saw fit for me not doing my job. So no, what you see in the NFL is EXACTLY the same as contracted employment in the real world. AND, if I outperform everyone else as a contracted employee, I don't get to rip up my contract and get a new one. I have to wait until it is completed and then negotiate a new one without whining and complaining about it.

Oh yeah, one last thing - the idea that he "outplayed" his contract's a joke. He was contracted to be a WR and play to the best of ability. He's done that. Period. Doing anything less is deserving of being fired by the team. He's done nothing more or less than what he was contracted to do.

[polamalubeast]

I just can't believe what I read.....

[Born2Steel]

name every receiver better than Antonio Brown in the past 20 years. now count how many are currently in the hall of fame. now count how many are shoe ins for the hall of fame. if you have any receivers left over, you are insane. you tear pages out of the rulebook for the truly once a generation level players. and holy hell is that a lot of ifs. Bryant cant even get on the field, Green hasnt proven he can stay healthy at all, Coates has caught 3 nfl passes, JJ has scarcely caught more, and Phillips hasnt even made an nfl roster. AB is the 2nd most important player on this team, and id very much like to give our most important player all the weapons at his disposal until he retires.

players take time to develop as well. we could continue our streak of successful receiver draft picks but what good does it do to give Ben these raw receivers in the twilight of his career? Let him run with his mustangs, not a 1980 volvo that needs fixing

I agree. But the ifs are there. Looking at it from a historical POV, when do the Steelers pay the big contract? I think AB gets a new deal. I don't think he becomes the highest paid. We need him here.

[polamalubeast]

I agree. But the ifs are there. Looking at it from a historical POV, when do the Steelers pay the big contract? I think AB gets a new deal. I don't think he becomes the highest paid. We need him here.

As I said in another thread, Ben has had one of the biggest contract in NFL history twice, same for Polamalu, Harrison and Woodley at their position in their moment they have signed their contract.

[Craic]

I just can't believe what I read.....

That players should honor contracts as written like owners do? (See again, ability to fire employee for performance issues, and also guaranteed monies). If that's surprising, then I take it you've never done contract work.

Should he get paid? Yes. Next season. That's how the Rooneys work. That's the unwritten rule. And they'll be absolutely foolish to break it for him.

BTW, you see who his agent is? Drew Rosenhaus. Don't you think it's a coincidence that he gets Rosenhaus as an agent In summer of 2014, and immediately after that season, we start hearing talk of Brown wanting a new contract? Let me translate that for you:

Drew Rosenhaus wants to make more money off Antonio Brown so he's filling Brown's head with crap.

And THAT is another reason why the Rooney's are smart not to deal. Otherwise, every time a player got a new agent, we'd be right back in the same place so the agent can make more money off the players. Don't kid yourself that this is all about Antonio Brown.

It's not. It about setting precedent and laying down the law for sharks and leeches like Rosenhaus, who know who they can and cannot manipulate in negotiations.

[polamalubeast]

Brown has Drew Rosenhaus as agent since the beginning of his career.He changed his agent once, but he came back with Drew Rosenhaus shortly after.

Brown deserves to be an exception, he is a top 5 players in this league easily!....When a player underperforms his contract, you cut ihim, when a players outperforms a contract, you take care of him

[Mojouw]

I think you're fooling yourself if you think he's getting any less money per year if he signs now; we're paying him for past performance, future potential, the whole shooting match either way. I would be shocked if it's not in the neighborhood of a $14M average, whether we sign him this offseason or next offseason. So the only thing we have the power to affect is whether we start paying him that much money now, or a year from now - and as long as he's going to actually show up and play, doing it now has NO benefit to us.

I wouldn't be opposed to using whatever leftover cap space we have this year to help the Brown situation - IF it doesn't interfere with any other moves we want to make in the next month or two, like extending another key player. But doing it just as a nice gesture if it has a real effect on our other workings? Forget it.

Also (and this is the pessimistic view) we have no idea what the hell is going to happen between now and next offseason. All signs indicate that Brown is a great guy with an excellent work ethic and incredible durability. But that can all change with no warning. You could wake up tomorrow morning and read that he got run over and his leg is torn up beyond repair. Or he had an epiphany and decided to retire because of the danger of concussions; or he got into some bad shit trying to help a shady friend or relative, and that spirals out of control TMZ style as the season progresses; or for all we know, is suddenly facing a yearlong ban for PEDs. You think you know, but you just don't. Then we'd be glad we didn't pull the trigger early. Maybe it's a 5% chance, maybe it's a 1% chance, but it's not zero.

Brown is 28 (July 10, 1988). If you don't pay him until his contract runs out (after 2017) - that means you are paying him to be the highest paid WR in the NFL going in to his age 30 season! Reasonably AB would look for a 5 year deal. That means you are paying top dollar for his age 30-35 seasons. Historically not the best years of a WR's career.

Now you buy him out and extend him NOW - you are paying top dollar for his age 28, 29, 30, 31, and 32 year old seasons. That looks a darn sight better to me.

Also, to all that say they can't redo their employment contracts. Well, that sucks. But you can look for a new job at any point. I suspect most work in industries where there are more than 32 vaguely colluding employers. Also, maybe in the next life you can be pro athlete.

[pczach]

The Steelers don't negotiate future contracts until there is one year left on the current contract. That's the way they have always done things.

They did precisely that with Big Ben.........the franchise quarterback. If they use this same philosophy with one of the best quarterbacks in football, what makes anyone feel they need to do anything different with a wide receiver, no matter how good he is?

They will offer AB a big contract after this season if they continue to do what they always do. As long as it looks like Ben has a few more great years in him, they will try to keep AB in Pittsburgh by extending him and will offer him a very lucrative contract. They will just do it after this season IMO.

[steelreserve]

Brown is 28 (July 10, 1988). If you don't pay him until his contract runs out (after 2017) - that means you are paying him to be the highest paid WR in the NFL going in to his age 30 season! Reasonably AB would look for a 5 year deal. That means you are paying top dollar for his age 30-35 seasons. Historically not the best years of a WR's career.

Now you buy him out and extend him NOW - you are paying top dollar for his age 28, 29, 30, 31, and 32 year old seasons. That looks a darn sight better to me.


I would disagree with that ... I would rather push as much as possible of that gigantic cap number into the far future, when 1) The cap will be higher, and 2) We don't need all the cap space because our window will slam shut when Ben retires. We can pay Brown $20M to play out the last season in a rebuilding shitshow and it won't hurt us nearly as much as if we passed up an opportunity to sign another key guy NOW.

Also - it's one year difference. How does signing him now have the contract end when he's 32, and signing him next year have the contract end when he's 35? If we re-signed him next offseason, we'd be tearing up the final year of his deal and signing him for years 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33, not years 30-35. I don't think there's any way in hell we wait until he hits unrestricted free agency; we will take care of it one way or another before that.

Another option if we can't get a deal done ... franchise tag. Current contract plus three years of that is probably cheaper than a megadeal we give out today. Not that we're likely to do that, but just saying it's there as leverage.

[Psycho Ward 86]

No. I say the Steelers front office rewards people who keep quiet and don't try to bail on contracts they've signed two or three years in advance. And don't give the "But the owners get to bail . . ." crap. They don't, not without penalty. That's what "guaranteed money" is, and why players agree to such contracts.

And speaking of having things backwards . . . you talk about an employer. As an employer for contractors (say, someone working on my home) I get to fire anyone at anytime provided I paid the guaranteed portion of their contract. Furthermore, My last contracted employment when I was the employee had a clause that gave the employer the right to fire me whenever if they saw fit for me not doing my job. So no, what you see in the NFL is EXACTLY the same as contracted employment in the real world. AND, if I outperform everyone else as a contracted employee, I don't get to rip up my contract and get a new one. I have to wait until it is completed and then negotiate a new one without whining and complaining about it.

Oh yeah, one last thing - the idea that he "outplayed" his contract's a joke. He was contracted to be a WR and play to the best of ability. He's done that. Period. Doing anything less is deserving of being fired by the team. He's done nothing more or less than what he was contracted to do.

And don't give the "But the owners get to bail . . ." crap. They don't, not without penalty. That's what "guaranteed money" is, and why players agree to such contracts.

And speaking of having things backwards . . . you talk about an employer. As an employer for contractors (say, someone working on my home) I get to fire anyone at anytime provided I paid the guaranteed portion of their contract.

My stars, the irony in this post: acknowledging the sharp penalty the steelers would face trying to terminate AB while simultaneously insinuating that he's at the steelers FO's mercy. Because we can totally threaten to cut Antonio Brown right :lol:? Classy. You make it sound like Antonio Brown has been actively creating a shitstorm over his contract. he hasnt. he has vocalized his desire for a new contract, well duh, who in his position wouldnt? but he has also done nothing but praise the Rooneys for their class in taking care of him during his career and even said he would never hold out. thats not the talk of a diva. thats a guy looking for a gentleman's negotiation

He's done nothing more or less than what he was contracted to do

Uh...ever heard of performance based pay? And raises?

Again, name every receiver better than Antonio Brown in the past 20 years. now count how many are currently in the hall of fame. now count how many are shoe ins for the hall of fame. if you have any receivers left over, you are insane. you make exceptions for players that good.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I agree. But the ifs are there. Looking at it from a historical POV, when do the Steelers pay the big contract? I think AB gets a new deal. I don't think he becomes the highest paid. We need him here.

As said before, the steelers have given out some of the historically biggest contracts ever at the time of their signings with Ben, Polamalu, Harrison, and Woodley, many of them multiple times. They only do it with transcendent players. Antonio Brown is a transcendent player, probably more than many if not most of the players named above.

[Psycho Ward 86]

The Steelers don't negotiate future contracts until there is one year left on the current contract. That's the way they have always done things.

They did precisely that with Big Ben.........the franchise quarterback. If they use this same philosophy with one of the best quarterbacks in football, what makes anyone feel they need to do anything different with a wide receiver, no matter how good he is?



No they didnt. Ben got a huge $102 million dollar contract for 8 years with 2 years left on his rookie deal. Although yeah, to be fair Colbert said the 1 year out thing is only exceptionalized with QB's/Ben had only 1 year left for his most recent deal.

[Mojouw]

I would disagree with that ... I would rather push as much as possible of that gigantic cap number into the far future, when 1) The cap will be higher, and 2) We don't need all the cap space because our window will slam shut when Ben retires. We can pay Brown $20M to play out the last season in a rebuilding shitshow and it won't hurt us nearly as much as if we passed up an opportunity to sign another key guy NOW.

Also - it's one year difference. How does signing him now have the contract end when he's 32, and signing him next year have the contract end when he's 35? If we re-signed him next offseason, we'd be tearing up the final year of his deal and signing him for years 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33, not years 30-35. I don't think there's any way in hell we wait until he hits unrestricted free agency; we will take care of it one way or another before that.

Another option if we can't get a deal done ... franchise tag. Current contract plus three years of that is probably cheaper than a megadeal we give out today. Not that we're likely to do that, but just saying it's there as leverage.

I didn't really explain myself well. My thinking makes the following assumptions:

1. If AB is not extended this off-season, he and Rosenhaus will roll the dice and refuse an extension next off-season and attempt to enter UFA They likely target $20 million or so - after all isn't AB more valuable than Von Miller?
2. 5 year deal is a random # I invented for purposes of discussion.
3. Resign/extend now starts the clock at his age 28 season
4. Resigning him after the expiration of the current contract starts the clock on his age 30 season.

My thinking, and it was not laid out clearly, is that I would rather sign AB NOW to something like the deal AJ Green is on (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/a.j.-green/). With a similar structure, the Steelers pay ton over the life the contract, but all the guaranteed stuff is early when AB is still in his prime and should be producing at a level to justify the $$$. Then from 30 onward, it becomes cheaper to cut AB then to pay him (the dead money portion of the deal). That would then shift some of the risk from the team to the player for any later career physical decline. Or even give the Steelers leverage to renegotiate another contract at a far lower salary and cap # - something they have often done with post 30 year old players.

I truly feel that resigning or at least negotiating now allows the Steelers to retain some leverage and foster a sense that they "take care of guys". Wait a year and they got no leverage and a sour taste all around.

[steelreserve]

I didn't really explain myself well. My thinking makes the following assumptions:

1. If AB is not extended this off-season, he and Rosenhaus will roll the dice and refuse an extension next off-season and attempt to enter UFA They likely target $20 million or so - after all isn't AB more valuable than Von Miller?
2. 5 year deal is a random # I invented for purposes of discussion.
3. Resign/extend now starts the clock at his age 28 season
4. Resigning him after the expiration of the current contract starts the clock on his age 30 season.

My thinking, and it was not laid out clearly, is that I would rather sign AB NOW to something like the deal AJ Green is on (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/a.j.-green/). With a similar structure, the Steelers pay ton over the life the contract, but all the guaranteed stuff is early when AB is still in his prime and should be producing at a level to justify the $$$. Then from 30 onward, it becomes cheaper to cut AB then to pay him (the dead money portion of the deal). That would then shift some of the risk from the team to the player for any later career physical decline. Or even give the Steelers leverage to renegotiate another contract at a far lower salary and cap # - something they have often done with post 30 year old players.

I truly feel that resigning or at least negotiating now allows the Steelers to retain some leverage and foster a sense that they "take care of guys". Wait a year and they got no leverage and a sour taste all around.


The mistake you make with #1 is thinking that Drew Rosenhaus is going to be motivated by anything other than straight cash. He'll be asking for the same amount now as he will in a year, or two years, and you are likely right that what he is asking for will be near $20M a season. I just think we're delusional if we think we're going to get any discount at all by doing it a year early.

As for shifting the risk with an A.J. Green-type contract, we're also fooling ourselves. Any deal that size will be restructured six ways from Sunday before Brown is halfway through it, and by the last couple years it'll be nothing but dead money. Mark my words, it will never, EVER be cheaper for us to cut Brown than to keep paying him. In his last season his cap hit WILL be something like $26 million, of which $20 million is dead money. Hopefully that's after Ben retires and it doesn't matter.

Even assuming we could get a better deal by extending the contract early as an olive branch, it would have to be a WAY better deal for us in order to justify increasing his average salary from $8M to $16M for two years instead of one, or even possibly none. Over five years, is he going to give back $3-$4M a year? In order for it to work out in our favor financially versus the hard-line option - which is keeping him on the current deal all the way until it expires, then using the franchise tag and negotiating a long-term contract - he'd have to sign for $10-$12M a season, which ain't gonna happen. We will probably meet him in the middle by extending him next year so as not to be total dicks, but still, there is no way it works out in our favor financially.

If it comes to hurt feelings and sour attitudes, the franchise tag is our leverage.

[Mojouw]

The mistake you make with #1 is thinking that Drew Rosenhaus is going to be motivated by anything other than straight cash. He'll be asking for the same amount now as he will in a year, or two years, and you are likely right that what he is asking for will be near $20M a season. I just think we're delusional if we think we're going to get any discount at all by doing it a year early.

As for shifting the risk with an A.J. Green-type contract, we're also fooling ourselves. Any deal that size will be restructured six ways from Sunday before Brown is halfway through it, and by the last couple years it'll be nothing but dead money. Mark my words, it will never, EVER be cheaper for us to cut Brown than to keep paying him. In his last season his cap hit WILL be something like $26 million, of which $20 million is dead money. Hopefully that's after Ben retires and it doesn't matter.

Even assuming we could get a better deal by extending the contract early as an olive branch, it would have to be a WAY better deal for us in order to justify increasing his average salary from $8M to $16M for two years instead of one, or even possibly none. Over five years, is he going to give back $3-$4M a year? In order for it to work out in our favor financially versus the hard-line option - which is keeping him on the current deal all the way until it expires, then using the franchise tag and negotiating a long-term contract - he'd have to sign for $10-$12M a season, which ain't gonna happen. We will probably meet him in the middle by extending him next year so as not to be total dicks, but still, there is no way it works out in our favor financially.

If it comes to hurt feelings and sour attitudes, the franchise tag is our leverage.

I totally disagree with all of that. Prior to UFA status, there is no "open market" to negotiate against. No other team offering more guaranteed cash. The looming specter of catastrophic knee injury exists.

It is basically an updated version of what the Steelers did last time with AB. Plus all the dollar figures we want to toss around are meaningless. It is all about guaranteed cash. Anything besides that is money that the player will never see and the team will never pay. As to the restructures, that can not be factored in to a contract negotiation. Just because the front office may do dumb shit in the future isn't a reason to do nothing now.

I can see where you are coming from, but I honestly think taking care of AB now is a situation where the benefits FAR outweigh the risks.

[Craic]

And don't give the "But the owners get to bail . . ." crap. They don't, not without penalty. That's what "guaranteed money" is, and why players agree to such contracts.

And speaking of having things backwards . . . you talk about an employer. As an employer for contractors (say, someone working on my home) I get to fire anyone at anytime provided I paid the guaranteed portion of their contract.

My stars, the irony in this post: acknowledging the sharp penalty the steelers would face trying to terminate AB while simultaneously insinuating that he's at the steelers FO's mercy. Because we can totally threaten to cut Antonio Brown right :lol:? Classy. You make it sound like Antonio Brown has been actively creating a shitstorm over his contract. he hasnt. he has vocalized his desire for a new contract, well duh, who in his position wouldnt? but he has also done nothing but praise the Rooneys for their class in taking care of him during his career and even said he would never hold out. thats not the talk of a diva. thats a guy looking for a gentleman's negotiation

He's done nothing more or less than what he was contracted to do

Uh...ever heard of performance based pay? And raises?

Again, name every receiver better than Antonio Brown in the past 20 years. now count how many are currently in the hall of fame. now count how many are shoe ins for the hall of fame. if you have any receivers left over, you are insane. you make exceptions for players that good.

First, let's try not putting words in someone's mouth. I never insinuated he's at the FO's mercy. I simply stated that he's contracted by them, and they, him. The terms of the contract allow for him to be fired if he does not play well.

Second, let's talk reading comprehension. My statement = making the case that football players are not treated any different contract-wise than any other contractor in today's labor market. You're response = You're saying THREATEN HIM! Um, no. Not in the least. See, my statement was "Definitional" to contracts and how they work.

Third, let's talk context. I noticed you cut off the first part of my post, which established the "employer" discussion as a followup to your original comment. So, honestly, I have no idea where all the foam and spittle is coming from.

Fourth, "Creating a shitstorm over his contract." Please. Stop making things up. If you're going to debate, at least keep it within the realm of what has been said. And, I'll clarify and abbreviate it for you now.


1. AB has made noise two years in a row about not liking his contract.

2. Rooneys do not renegotiate contracts until a year out.

3. Rooneys tend to honor those who don't say anything to the press.

4. Saying ANYTHING to the press does nothing for AB, it only hurts him in the long run by possibly making the Rooneys play hardball a bit more.

5. Conclusion = Next year is contract year (1 year out). So shut up completely, honor the signed contract, bust out another spectacular year, and then bust the bank next year with a contract signing.


Reading anything else into my last few posts is wishful thinking or, do I dare say it . . . strawman arguments.

http://www.artsjournal.com/engage/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/StrawMan.jpg


:chuckle: Where's our favorite straw-man parakeet when you need him? "Straw-man!" Straw-man!" Squawk! Squawk! "Straw-man!"

[steelreserve]

I totally disagree with all of that. Prior to UFA status, there is no "open market" to negotiate against. No other team offering more guaranteed cash. The looming specter of catastrophic knee injury exists.

It is basically an updated version of what the Steelers did last time with AB. Plus all the dollar figures we want to toss around are meaningless. It is all about guaranteed cash. Anything besides that is money that the player will never see and the team will never pay. As to the restructures, that can not be factored in to a contract negotiation. Just because the front office may do dumb shit in the future isn't a reason to do nothing now.

I can see where you are coming from, but I honestly think taking care of AB now is a situation where the benefits FAR outweigh the risks.


For the record, I'm 100% in favor of redoing his deal next year. Waiting for the actual end of his contract is one of those works-in-theory things that could turn out terribly in practice.

I think you do have to take restructures into account. Not least of which because the way we've done it, it basically turns the whole contract into guaranteed cash. Virtually all of our key players play out their entire contracts and collect all their money. Then maybe they get some extension right at the end for a low dollar amount to spread out their cap hit, then they play one more year and retire.

No, the past is not always a surefire predictor of the future, but I do not see any way coming up that we won't employ restructures heavily in our salary cap strategy. We are in a very similar situation to about 2007 or 2008, where we have a core of players we want to keep together for a championship window, and a big contract crunch coming up. Deals will be restructured, and Brown's will be #2 on the list behind Ben's. My guess is 6 years, $100 million, $50-$60M guaranteed. That will be almost impossible not to touch when we're trying to squeeze out a couple extra million for something. He's playing this one out until the bitter end.

[Mojouw]

For the record, I'm 100% in favor of redoing his deal next year. Waiting for the actual end of his contract is one of those works-in-theory things that could turn out terribly in practice.

I think you do have to take restructures into account. Not least of which because the way we've done it, it basically turns the whole contract into guaranteed cash. Virtually all of our key players play out their entire contracts and collect all their money. Then maybe they get some extension right at the end for a low dollar amount to spread out their cap hit, then they play one more year and retire.

No, the past is not always a surefire predictor of the future, but I do not see any way coming up that we won't employ restructures heavily in our salary cap strategy. We are in a very similar situation to about 2007 or 2008, where we have a core of players we want to keep together for a championship window, and a big contract crunch coming up. Deals will be restructured, and Brown's will be #2 on the list behind Ben's. My guess is 6 years, $100 million, $50-$60M guaranteed. That will be almost impossible not to touch when we're trying to squeeze out a couple extra million for something. He's playing this one out until the bitter end.

What is the big contract crunch coming up? Decastro, Bell, AB, and ???? Not being a smart ass, just can't seem to remember who else needs to get paid.

[steelreserve]

What is the big contract crunch coming up? Decastro, Bell, AB, and ???? Not being a smart ass, just can't seem to remember who else needs to get paid.

It is not next offseason but the one after where I think we really get into the weeds. Take your list and add Tuitt; he could easily approach the $XX,XXX,XXX range. We'll still have Shazier's rights through 2018, but only via the fifth-year option, which will probably be $XX,XXX,XXX, so we'll also need to give him a sizeable contract at the same time.

Then there are a bunch of guys who we'll have to decide what to do with in the next year or two, who individually don't command huge money or star power, but together are a big part of the team and probably in the $30M+ range if we tried to keep them all. Villanueva, Timmons, Williams, Wheaton, Bryant, and probably at least one of Cockrell/Golson/Grant if not more. Boswell's cheapo contract will be expiring and he'll want a raise. And of course whoever else we decide to sign - we'll probably be looking for new backup QBs and RBs in free agency, Arthur Moats-level LBs, and things like that, so a little room would help us stay of the real bottom of the barrel.

I mean, there's going to be some roster turnover no matter what we do, and hopefully some skilled draft picks coming in to take off some pressure, but as far as the pieces we need to win a championship, beyond what you mentioned, there's a pretty big outlay for the two pieces we MUST keep, and we probably want to also keep at least half of the others. So I am confident that restructures will abound, and for that, the bigger the contract the better.

[Psycho Ward 86]

First, let's try not putting words in someone's mouth. I never insinuated he's at the FO's mercy. I simply stated that he's contracted by them, and they, him. The terms of the contract allow for him to be fired if he does not play well.

Second, let's talk reading comprehension. My statement = making the case that football players are not treated any different contract-wise than any other contractor in today's labor market. You're response = You're saying THREATEN HIM! Um, no. Not in the least. See, my statement was "Definitional" to contracts and how they work.

Third, let's talk context. I noticed you cut off the first part of my post, which established the "employer" discussion as a followup to your original comment. So, honestly, I have no idea where all the foam and spittle is coming from.

Fourth, "Creating a shitstorm over his contract." Please. Stop making things up. If you're going to debate, at least keep it within the realm of what has been said. And, I'll clarify and abbreviate it for you now.


1. AB has made noise two years in a row about not liking his contract.

2. Rooneys do not renegotiate contracts until a year out.

3. Rooneys tend to honor those who don't say anything to the press.

4. Saying ANYTHING to the press does nothing for AB, it only hurts him in the long run by possibly making the Rooneys play hardball a bit more.

5. Conclusion = Next year is contract year (1 year out). So shut up completely, honor the signed contract, bust out another spectacular year, and then bust the bank next year with a contract signing.


Reading anything else into my last few posts is wishful thinking or, do I dare say it . . . strawman arguments.

http://www.artsjournal.com/engage/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/StrawMan.jpg


:chuckle: Where's our favorite straw-man parakeet when you need him? "Straw-man!" Straw-man!" Squawk! Squawk! "Straw-man!"

Thanks for reading. Insinuation and putting words in your mouth are very different. I took the time to differentiate the 2.

As an employer for contractors (say, someone working on my home) I get to fire anyone at anytime provided I paid the guaranteed portion of their contract.


sounds an awful lot like someone who needs to point out that wants to point out that a contracted player is at the FO's mercy. i wonder how the average employee would feel if they were told the bolded text. hmmm. does your statement not establish the understanding that the employer can have his way with the employee? then again, you dont like to concede to the subtleties of language and need to read the words "im threatening you" for it to count as a threat. unless its me. ironic.

your statement was not at all definitive to how contracts work. some contracts can be amended. they're most certainly amended with frequency in professional sports.

apologies for cutting off the part of your post least relevant to my response. keep that part of your post by all means, nothing has changed. i cut it for the purposes of an easier reading for others.

keep it within the realm of what has been said

i have a feeling this type of statement is going to continue to be the most ironic thing that gets responded to all day. The rooneys arent going to play hardball with AB more than they are/aren't already. AB has conceded already that the ball is in their court. He has stated he wants a new contract which is somehow offensive to you even though it comes as news to no one else in the world. All he did is state the obvious. He followed that up by praising the Rooney's treatment of himself and explicitly said he would not hold out. AB is surrendering all leverage to the Rooneys. How are they going to be able to "hardball" any further?

And it would be nice to have a discussion where you actually address my talking points as i address yours. Im curious as to how this discussion can exist with little to no mentions from you about AB's performance and Ben's soon-to-be-over career

[Psycho Ward 86]

It is not next offseason but the one after where I think we really get into the weeds. Take your list and add Tuitt; he could easily approach the $XX,XXX,XXX range. We'll still have Shazier's rights through 2018, but only via the fifth-year option, which will probably be $XX,XXX,XXX, so we'll also need to give him a sizeable contract at the same time.

Then there are a bunch of guys who we'll have to decide what to do with in the next year or two, who individually don't command huge money or star power, but together are a big part of the team and probably in the $30M+ range if we tried to keep them all. Villanueva, Timmons, Williams, Wheaton, Bryant, and probably at least one of Cockrell/Golson/Grant if not more. Boswell's cheapo contract will be expiring and he'll want a raise. And of course whoever else we decide to sign - we'll probably be looking for new backup QBs and RBs in free agency, Arthur Moats-level LBs, and things like that, so a little room would help us stay of the real bottom of the barrel.

I mean, there's going to be some roster turnover no matter what we do, and hopefully some skilled draft picks coming in to take off some pressure, but as far as the pieces we need to win a championship, beyond what you mentioned, there's a pretty big outlay for the two pieces we MUST keep, and we probably want to also keep at least half of the others. So I am confident that restructures will abound, and for that, the bigger the contract the better.

some of those cap casualties/UFA's to not re-sign are honestly pretty easy choices to make. Timmons is far underplaying his contract and is growing old. we've overplayed and gotten hung up on guys past their prime for several years in a row now. Williams can be our Larry Foote and that should be good enough. Williams is going to be in his mid 30's, probably time to move on, no harm done there. Wheaton is as good as gone. We would be insane to keep him at what will most likely be a marvin jones/mohamed sanu level pricetage and Wheaton wouldnt be making a smart financial decision by asking for less. and if Bryant ends up not being able to get it together then yeah maybe we should think about re-signing him, especially if he finally blows up, but that also removes Bryant from the equation which works out nicely. why are you looking so far ahead. why so far ahead? are you expecting Ben to play well til he's 40? theres so much that can happen between now and then that its not worth sweating over. a lot of the rest of the players you mentioned are probably only going to amount to medium/smaller 2nd contract type deals. if theyre worth anymore than that, it probably means this team ended up being crazy stacked and won at least one more superbowl in that time frame. thats totally worth it

[Craic]

Thanks for reading. Insinuation and putting words in your mouth are very different. I took the time to differentiate the 2.

As an employer for contractors (say, someone working on my home) I get to fire anyone at anytime provided I paid the guaranteed portion of their contract.


sounds an awful lot like someone who needs to point out that wants to point out that a contracted player is at the FO's mercy. i wonder how the average employee would feel if they were told the bolded text. hmmm. does your statement not establish the understanding that the employer can have his way with the employee? then again, you dont like to concede to the subtleties of language and need to read the words "im threatening you" for it to count as a threat. unless its me. ironic.

your statement was not at all definitive to how contracts work. some contracts can be amended. they're most certainly amended with frequency in professional sports.

apologies for cutting off the part of your post least relevant to my response. keep that part of your post by all means, nothing has changed. i cut it for the purposes of an easier reading for others.

keep it within the realm of what has been said

i have a feeling this type of statement is going to continue to be the most ironic thing that gets responded to all day. The rooneys arent going to play hardball with AB more than they are/aren't already. AB has conceded already that the ball is in their court. He has stated he wants a new contract which is somehow offensive to you even though it comes as news to no one else in the world. All he did is state the obvious. He followed that up by praising the Rooney's treatment of himself and explicitly said he would not hold out. AB is surrendering all leverage to the Rooneys. How are they going to be able to "hardball" any further?

And it would be nice to have a discussion where you actually address my talking points as i address yours. Im curious as to how this discussion can exist with little to no mentions from you about AB's performance and Ben's soon-to-be-over career

After re-reading my last two posts, I have to shout a MEA CULPA because I didn't specify in my line about contracts that the employee being fired, would be fired for cause. That removes the "At the mercy" element. (And probably puts in better perspective my statement, "the contract allows for him to be fired if he doesn't play well."

As for amending (or, in this case, renegotiating), I've yet to see a contract that states the contracted employee has the right to request being amended or renegotiated. I've seen some in other areas that provide release of parties without penalty for certain issues (one such one deleted a contract if a house value increased by a certain percent before the purchase closed.) But nothing that provides the contracted person the right while the contract is still in force.

The point about cutting off the post was that you were arguing

"lol, you say that like the steelers front office has him by the balls. you have it backwards"

To which I responded


No. I say the Steelers front office rewards people who keep quiet and don't try to bail on contracts they've signed two or three years in advance. And don't give the "But the owners get to bail . . ." crap. They don't, not without penalty. That's what "guaranteed money" is, and why players agree to such contracts.

Hence, in the flow of the conversation, I'm arguing the Steelers front office does not have him "by the balls" but instead, they are simply going about business as usual. The next line is in light of the fact they do not amend contracts until the last year, and the common argument given by people to legitimate players demanding teams (in general) do so. By cutting off that line, you shifted the focus to
My stars, the irony in this post: acknowledging the sharp penalty the steelers would face trying to terminate AB while simultaneously insinuating that he's at the steelers FO's mercy.

But that was never my point. My point is the balance between owner and player when it comes to contracts and being cut in the NFL is guaranteed money, and was given solely to forestall someone arguing, "Owners get to bail on contracts, so why shouldn't players?" You turned it into a statement that the FO has him by the balls, but also that they will suffer heavily if they cut him, which is what precipitated my somewhat nasty (and I apologize for it in hindsight) response.


As for the Rooneys playing hardball. I'm speak of negotiations for his next contract next year. They can refuse to give him a contract next year, and then franchise tag him the year after that, making AB thirty years old before he's able to seek a contract somewhere else. And, looking back the last few years, they have been willing to use the franchise tag.



AB's performance - I make little mention of it because it has no bearing on an already signed contract unless there are escalators/bonuses in the contract itself. When we start talking new contract next year, that's when it comes into play. Also, if you scroll down, you'll notice a bunch of posts on AB's performance. But, to make it short and sweet, I'll say: on any given Sunday, he's one of the top 3 WRs on the field. What makes him real special is that he's almost always one of the top three on the field. By that I mean he's very consistent, although he still has a few areas in his game that can get stronger.

As for Ben leaving - it highlights the question I asked earlier to Teagre. How much of that top 2 or 3 percent of Brown's game - that part that differentiates him from other excellent receivers - is Brown, and how much of it is Ben. That's a question the Rooneys will have ask themselves going into the next contract, and I'd say the answer to that will account for, over the life of his next contract offer, maybe 1-2 million a year.

[steelreserve]

some of those cap casualties/UFA's to not re-sign are honestly pretty easy choices to make. Timmons is far underplaying his contract and is growing old. we've overplayed and gotten hung up on guys past their prime for several years in a row now. Williams can be our Larry Foote and that should be good enough. Williams is going to be in his mid 30's, probably time to move on, no harm done there. Wheaton is as good as gone. We would be insane to keep him at what will most likely be a marvin jones/mohamed sanu level pricetage and Wheaton wouldnt be making a smart financial decision by asking for less. and if Bryant ends up not being able to get it together then yeah maybe we should think about re-signing him, especially if he finally blows up, but that also removes Bryant from the equation which works out nicely. why are you looking so far ahead. why so far ahead? are you expecting Ben to play well til he's 40? theres so much that can happen between now and then that its not worth sweating over. a lot of the rest of the players you mentioned are probably only going to amount to medium/smaller 2nd contract type deals. if theyre worth anymore than that, it probably means this team ended up being crazy stacked and won at least one more superbowl in that time frame. thats totally worth it

Why am I looking so far ahead? What do you mean? This all happens in the next two years.

I expect Ben to play basically until the end of his current contract, so anyone whose contract is up this season or next is going to be a factor in whether we can win a Super Bowl (or two, if we manage to win one before then).

There's no way we're going to keep all of those players, but let's say Villanueva turns out to be the real deal and we want to keep him - could $8 million help us do that? Could one season with a bad LT effectively ruin our chances that year? Let's say V. Williams plays lights-out and we definitely want to keep him, but we have to pay him like a good starter, not Larry Foote. If we can't, then what?

There are all kinds of things like that that could come up, and while neither of us knows exactly what they are going to be, the one thing that's certain is that having more money helps you deal with them. Or that if you don't have the money, you have to find it, which is why restructuring happens. On the other hand, if we just let all of those players walk, or they all turn out not to be worth much money, then we've got other problems.

The one thing I can't believe is that people are arguing that a) We should sacrifice a total of $8M to $16M in cap space, depending, and gain no advantage from it, which there is just absolutely no way to justify as a winning move, or b) Assuming we do issue a big contract to Brown next season, that there's any chance in hell we won't restructure it. Why wouldn't we restructure it? As you said, is Ben going to play until he's 40? If they can put Brown's money way out in the future to win before then, they'll do it.

[teegre]

Holy heated-threads, Batman!!! I go away for a few days, and this thread gets a little testy.

There are lots of words, good points all around, but I honestly see it as simple as this:

AB is an anomaly.



The Rooneys shouldn't re-negotiate contracts until the final year. Agreed... except in this case. AB is an anomaly.

Other players will want to re-negotiate sooner, too. Agreed, they will want to... but, they are not an anomaly (so eff them).

We need to win now/a big contract will hamstring the future. Agreed/agreed... sign AB now, in order to give us the best shot at winning while BB is still playing, and then, siphon off AB's contract in whatever way they can ($16 million this year, $4 million next year, $22 million in 2021, et cetera). The Rooneys are more than willing to "win now, pay later" as evidenced by 2010-2012 (when they tried to keep the band together, at the expense of 2013-2015).

Words.
More words.
Et cetera.
Yadda-yadda-yadda.
AB is an anomaly. Period.

[Hawkman]

Holy heated-threads, Batman!!! I go away for a few days, and this thread gets a little testy.

There are lots of words, good points all around, but I honestly see it as simple as this:

AB is an anomaly.



The Rooneys shouldn't re-negotiate contracts until the final year. Agreed... except in this case. AB is an anomaly.

Other players will want to re-negotiate sooner, too. Agreed, they will want to... but, they are not an anomaly (so eff them).

We need to win now/a big contract will hamstring the future. Agreed/agreed... sign AB now, in order to give us the best shot at winning while BB is still playing, and then, siphon off AB's contract in whatever way they can ($16 million this year, $4 million next year, $22 million in 2021, et cetera). The Rooneys are more than willing to "win now, pay later" as evidenced by 2010-2012 (when they tried to keep the band together, at the expense of 2013-2015).

Words.
More words.
Et cetera.
Yadda-yadda-yadda.
AB is an anomaly. Period.

My two cents on this exhausting thread: I think Troy was as much of an "anomaly" or "freak", as AB is, ( on the other side of the ball ), he got paid when it was time, and I feel strongly that AB will get paid.....when it's time. He's a Steeler, and I think he understands what he and BB have is really special. I imagine he would want to ride the Ben wave as long as he can. How successful do you think he'd be in say.........Miami?

[steelreserve]

Holy heated-threads, Batman!!! I go away for a few days, and this thread gets a little testy.

There are lots of words, good points all around, but I honestly see it as simple as this:

AB is an anomaly.



The Rooneys shouldn't re-negotiate contracts until the final year. Agreed... except in this case. AB is an anomaly.

Other players will want to re-negotiate sooner, too. Agreed, they will want to... but, they are not an anomaly (so eff them).

We need to win now/a big contract will hamstring the future. Agreed/agreed... sign AB now, in order to give us the best shot at winning while BB is still playing, and then, siphon off AB's contract in whatever way they can ($16 million this year, $4 million next year, $22 million in 2021, et cetera). The Rooneys are more than willing to "win now, pay later" as evidenced by 2010-2012 (when they tried to keep the band together, at the expense of 2013-2015).

Words.
More words.
Et cetera.
Yadda-yadda-yadda.
AB is an anomaly. Period.


AB is an anomaly. An anomaly who's already signed.

Signing AB will give us the best shot at winning a title while Ben is still playing. And he's already signed.

If there's one player we'd break the rules for, this would be it ... but he's already signed.

I still don't get it. Unless you think he's going to a) half-ass it all year, b) not show up at all, or c) refuse to sign a $100M contract next year and the year after because he's that butthurt, then there is no point at all to this. We would literally gain the exact same benefit from taking $8-10M and setting it on fire.

Whatever goodwill or noble sense of integrity people think we would be gaining by doing a deal now counts for nothing. It's a total sham being scripted by Drew Rosenhaus for the exclusive purpose of extracting more money from the team, everything else be damned. Don't fall for it. AB can only get halfway into that line of bullshit himself, it's pretty obvious.

One final thing people forget is that there is one reason above all why Brown is underpaid: Himself. Not the team, not the contract, not random luck or fate. People act like Brown was just standing around minding his own business, and suddenly this contract came out of nowhere and blindsided him, and now he's just this poor unfortunate guy caught in the middle. That's such bullshit. Does anyone really think that if he'd said "You know what, I want to be a free agent sooner, let's make the deal 4 years and $26 million," the team was going to tell him to fuck off? He was not a bystander to it; he had an active part in it and by definition bears at least 50% of the responsibility for his current deal. Makes me a lot less sympathetic to the idea that we need to step in and help him out, over some slight that we didn't make.

[BnG_Hevn]

They are athletes playing a game....and a meaningless one at that in the grand scheme of things. There is one neurosurgeon for every 81000 people in North America and the median salary for these doctors (in the US) is $540,000 per year. I have no sympathy for sports figures complaining about money.

The thing that kill me about the "game" argument is that all YOU see is the finished product on Sunday. What about all the hours spent in the gym? The discipline it takes to eat right and keep their bodies finely tuned?

Being a pro athlete goes WAY beyond game day.

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That's why talent only gets you so far, worth ethic is what makes a good, talented player great.

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So if you want to play a player based on the value, again, the "game" gets thrown out the window.

[steelreserve]

The thing that kill me about the "game" argument is that all YOU see is the finished product on Sunday. What about all the hours spent in the gym? The discipline it takes to eat right and keep their bodies finely tuned?

Being a pro athlete goes WAY beyond game day.

That's why talent only gets you so far, worth ethic is what makes a good, talented player great.

So if you want to play a player based on the value, again, the "game" gets thrown out the window.


I also think the "only a game" argument is a waste of time. Pro athletes are entertainers, and their pay is based strictly on how many people want to watch them, and how much they're willing to pay. Same as actors, musicians, porn stars and whatever. It has nothing to do with intrinsic value to society and that's long been established. You want to pay teachers the same as football players, feel free to live in Cuba or Vietnam or some other communist shithole.

But sorry, pay has nothing to do with the amount of work you have to put in. Plenty of athletes work just as hard and earn less money, because they aren't as good. Again, same for actors, musicians and porn stars. So in that sense, the end result that you see is the only thing that counts, and how they made it happen matters little. I guess success is a good indicator that you probably worked hard, but if you got there by lazing around all day smoking meth, it's all the same. Especially in porn.