Did Bengals fall victim to Tomlin smokescreen [Archive]

LLT

05-08-2016, 12:15 PM

Did Bengals fall victim to Tomlin smokescreen
by Perry Biggerstaff
www.stillcurtain.com
05/08/16

Popular opinion is that the Cincinnati Bengals stole 1st round pick William Jackson III away from the Steelers moments before Pittsburgh would have chosen him with the #25 overall pick. Most draft sites and the vast majority of writers covering the draft had Jackson penciled in as choice for the secondary-hungry Steelers.

In truth, for weeks, the Pittsburgh Steelers made it publicly known that they were enamored with the Houston cornerback. They attended his pro day. They met with him privately. They even publicly gushed over the young prospect after meeting with him over dinner.

It’s no wonder that Bengal fans were elated to hear Jackson’s name called when Cincinnati chose him as their 2016 1st rounder. After all, this was the hated Pittsburgh Steelers. This was the team that has enjoyed so much success while the Bengals wallowed in the mediocrity of not winning a playoff game in this generation. This was the very team that had recently snatched a much anticipated playoff win from them, even as they watched their team implode. It was only right that the Bengals grab THE player that the Steelers truly wanted and needed.

Right?

Wrong.

For those of us who were watching the draft, it was obvious that Tomlin didn’t act like a coach who had settled for the next best cornerback. He was elated. He was sharing broad smiles and handshakes with front office personnel. He had the demeanor of a man who had landed the player he wanted. Now, we find out that Artie Burns was on the phone with Tomlin before the Bengals picked Jackson. In fact, since the Bengals were still on the clock, some members of Artie Burns family thought that it was Cincinnati on the phone.

The Bengals front office fell victim to a Tomlin jedi mind trick. The same one that draftniks, talking heads, and sports writers (myself included) fell for. Publicly it was Jackson who received all the attention and praise while privately the Steelers had Artie Burns ranked above him.

Read more @ https://stillcurtain.com/2016/05/08/did-bengals-fall-victim-to-tomlin-smokescreen/

Mojouw

05-08-2016, 12:46 PM

But...But...But...Tomlin is just a cool-shades poker player who doesn't know his butt from his elbow. No way he pulls this off! :mob:

Great write up. An interesting take on what actually goes on during the pre-draft and draft process.

Count Steeler

05-08-2016, 12:48 PM

This is exactly what crossed my mind in the Artie Burns thread. I still remember how quickly the Steelers pick came in after Cincy was finished.

Hope we have the better long term CBm

fansince'76

05-08-2016, 12:57 PM

But...But...But...Tomlin is just a cool-shades poker player who doesn't know his butt from his elbow. No way he pulls this off!

Don't forget his "007 trickery" that doesn't fool anybody. :bond:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/nfl-pittsburgh-steelers-news/2015/11/23/9781024/mystery-surrounding-steelers-center-maurkice-pounceys-return-continues

Once again, they have to keep everything hush hush, as IF that gives them any advantage whatsoever.

How does the "Spy vs Spy" crap help in any way?

As if Seattle is sitting up there in the North West, spending time trying to game plan vs. Pouncy, "just in case."

They treated his 2nd surgery like a state secret, or instructions on how to build a dirty bomb or something.

We are almost in December and dude is still having to wear a walking boot...........OR DOES HE?????????????????????????? Maybe that's 007 trickery too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:rolleyes:

hawaiiansteeler

05-08-2016, 01:19 PM

:cool::poker::hippo::bond:

Bengals William Jackson III says Steelers were 'coming for him'

Bryan DeArdo - Apr 29

On Thursday night, a new chapter was added to the Bengals and Steelers rivalry.

William Jackson III, the player everyone expected Pittsburgh to draft with the 25th pick, was snatched away by the Bengals just before the Steelers had a chance to grab the Houston cornerback.

Shortly after being drafted, Jackson confirmed that he would have been taken by the Steelers if the Bengals had not selected him with the 24th pick in the draft.

The Bengals picking Jackson was extra salt on the wounds for Steelers fans, who then watched as Pittsburgh quickly took Miami cornerback Artie Burns, Pittsburgh's first cornerback taken in the first round since Chad Scott back in 1997.

Now, instead of having him on their side, Pittsburgh will now have to face Jackson twice a year, as seemingly everyone's pick to land on the Steelers will now be on the other end of one of the most bitter rivalries in all of sports.

http://pit.247sports.com/Bolt/Bengals-William-Jackson-III-says-Steelers-were-coming-for-him--45074060

LLT

05-08-2016, 01:27 PM

This is exactly what crossed my mind in the Artie Burns thread. I still remember how quickly the Steelers pick came in after Cincy was finished.

Hope we have the better long term CBm

The sheer fact that he was on the phone with Tomlin BEFORE the Bengals made their pick is incredibly telling.

Shoes

05-08-2016, 01:33 PM

Nice work Perry!

ALLD

05-08-2016, 03:53 PM

I don't think either is a shut down corner. Time will tell who made the better pick. Cincy could draft the second coming of Rod Woodson and they still won't stop our WRs without a personal foul.

st33lersguy

05-08-2016, 04:15 PM

It makes more sense that they were locked in on Burns regardless of Jackson III's availability. First of all, Jackson III is not a good run defender at all who rarely makes tackles. Considering that the Steelers sat Boykin because of his inability to play run defense in practice suggests that maybe they were not all that high on him. Plus Burns would have an advantage over Jackson in being younger which is more towards what the Steelers like

polamalubeast

05-08-2016, 04:23 PM

I don't think either is a shut down corner. Time will tell who made the better pick. Cincy could draft the second coming of Rod Woodson and they still won't stop our WRs without a personal foul.

The Bengals could have the 85 Bears on defense and the greatest show on turf on offense and they would still be unable to win a playoff game with Mike Brown as owner and Marvin Lewis as coach.

The Bengals could have the most talented team in the world but they never make me fear, especially in big games.

ETL

05-08-2016, 06:11 PM

The Bengals could have the 85 Bears on defense and the greatest show on turf on offense and they would still be unable to win a playoff game with Mike Brown as owner and Marvin Lewis as coach.

The Bengals could have the most talented team in the world but they never make me fear, especially in big games.

Agree. Bengals just f/u talent and make players like BirthDefect their marquee players. Jackson will be a star after he leaves as a free agent

Dwinsgames

05-08-2016, 08:18 PM

wouldn't be the first time we snookered the Bengals into thinking they where taking our Guy .. Jerome Simpson 2008

Edman

05-08-2016, 08:33 PM

Just like how the Ravens "outmaneuvered" the Steelers last year by taking Maxx Williams. Remember that nonsense?

salamander

05-08-2016, 09:26 PM

I don't subscribe to all this hocus pocus. :chuckle:

Edman

05-08-2016, 10:20 PM

Now, instead of having him on their side, Pittsburgh will now have to face Jackson twice a year, as seemingly everyone's pick to land on the Steelers will now be on the other end of one of the most bitter rivalries in all of sports.

One team mad at another doesn't make a "rivalry".

It's more like a feud. Like the Steelers-Bengals "rivalry" in the mid-2000's. The Bengals were bitter and mad, but the Steelers were clearly the superior team.

fansince'76

05-09-2016, 12:03 AM

Now, instead of having him on their side, Pittsburgh will now have to face Jackson twice a year, as seemingly everyone's pick to land on the Steelers will now be on the other end of one of the most bitter rivalries in all of sports.

:rolleyes:

You mean like Darqueze Dennard (who the Steelers actually did pass on as they were ahead of the Bengals in the draft order that year)?

Just more cannon fodder for AB to make look foolish...

BlackAndGold

05-09-2016, 12:45 AM

Add in the fact WJ3 is going to be 24 years old, makes this story possibly even more true.

GBMelBlount

05-09-2016, 05:49 AM

We smoke screened them into taking the best available cornerback.

How clever. :chuckle:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2y40U2LvKY/hqdefault.jpg

tube517

05-09-2016, 06:40 AM

I saw this article linked in another forum (didn't click on the link and didn't know it was Perry's article) and the guy who posted the link said something about Tomlin's poker face. :lol: :poker:

salamander

05-09-2016, 06:44 AM

We smoke screened them into taking the best available cornerback.

How clever. :chuckle:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2y40U2LvKY/hqdefault.jpg

INCONCEIVABLE!

Texasteel

05-09-2016, 07:11 AM

We smoke screened them into taking the best available cornerback.

How clever. :chuckle:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2y40U2LvKY/hqdefault.jpg

Jackson has as many question marks as Burns does, and IMO would have been as big of a reach as some say Burns was. Jackson could become a fine CB, but the best available CB is yet to be seen.

steelreserve

05-09-2016, 10:29 AM

Dwinsgames

05-09-2016, 11:37 AM

Somehow, I think each team has its own scouting reports and player rankings that they spend a lot of time on, and don't draft based on what the Steelers say to the media. Or pay attention to what any other team says in the media, except for the purpose of making trades.

and this is why draft grades are build on false pretenses because its people grading on their perceived value of the player not on what the teams value and those teams have far greater amounts of tape and research done for those prospects , granted they do not get to every prospect from every school that would likely be impossible without a staff of hundreds but they cover most if not all of the higher profile guys and hit on a few notable small school guys ..

its not a perfect science because there are to many variables and far to much projection to make it a science at all but it is truly a best guess

Steelerette

05-09-2016, 11:39 AM

If WJ3 has the better career, then the Bengals got us. If Artie does, then we got them. Part luck, part scheme, part coaching, but at this point we didn't really win or lose a poker game (yet).

steelreserve

05-09-2016, 11:56 AM

and this is why draft grades are build on false pretenses because its people grading on their perceived value of the player not on what the teams value and those teams have far greater amounts of tape and research done for those prospects , granted they do not get to every prospect from every school that would likely be impossible without a staff of hundreds but they cover most if not all of the higher profile guys and hit on a few notable small school guys ..

its not a perfect science because there are to many variables and far to much projection to make it a science at all but it is truly a best guess

Every team has a different opinion of every guy, and for that matter every one of us has a slightly different opinion of every guy. That doesn't make anyone automatically right or wrong, but emphasizes how much of an inexact science it is.

In the first 2-3 rounds, we've all seen a lot of the same footage and heard a lot of the same things as the professionals have - so there's a lot more chance for the "armchair GMs" to get it right than some people would have you believe. In round 4, 5, 6, 7 - forget it, I have almost no knowledge of most of those players, with the exception of the occasional well-known guy who winds up there. So whatever the team does, you hope for the best without too much second-guessing. THAT'S where the professional coaches and scouts earn their money IMO.

I still don't like the Burns pick a whole lot, for reasons that plenty of people have already said, but yeah, there is obviously an upside to it if it works out. But it's a big "if" in my mind - a bigger "if" than with some other players possibly.

Dwinsgames

05-09-2016, 01:02 PM

Every team has a different opinion of every guy, and for that matter every one of us has a slightly different opinion of every guy. That doesn't make anyone automatically right or wrong, but emphasizes how much of an inexact science it is.

In the first 2-3 rounds, we've all seen a lot of the same footage and heard a lot of the same things as the professionals have - so there's a lot more chance for the "armchair GMs" to get it right than some people would have you believe. In round 4, 5, 6, 7 - forget it, I have almost no knowledge of most of those players, with the exception of the occasional well-known guy who winds up there. So whatever the team does, you hope for the best without too much second-guessing. THAT'S where the professional coaches and scouts earn their money IMO.

I still don't like the Burns pick a whole lot, for reasons that plenty of people have already said, but yeah, there is obviously an upside to it if it works out. But it's a big "if" in my mind - a bigger "if" than with some other players possibly.

the one big thing with Burns that is over looked by many , he is raw but there is reason behind some of that at least ... he was a track guy he missed most of , perhaps all of spring practices with the team due to his track schedule thus was not getting coaching at that time yet was talented enough to start over guys who did get those reps that being said teams still get more background info than we could ever expect to get and those 1 on 1 interviews at the chalk board are invaluable moments and insight to a players knowledge and understanding to the game and we get none of that and all the Raw talk about Burns while true he is 3 years younger than Jackson and Jackson is raw himself

hawaiiansteeler

05-09-2016, 05:15 PM

by Jim Wexell

The Steelers had six defensive backs ranked as first-rounders, in their upper tier, on draft day, with the only safety being Keanu Neal.

Burns was the last of the six to go. He was such a small slice of a smidge behind William Jackson that it didn't matter to the Steelers which one was left to them. And they weren't interested in listening to any trade offers. At. All.

http://www.scout.com/nfl/steelers/story/1668413-what-i-learned-steelers-rookie-minicamp?preview=true

steelreserve

05-09-2016, 05:36 PM

The Steelers had six defensive backs ranked as first-rounders, in their upper tier, on draft day, with the only safety being Keanu Neal.

That in itself makes me a lot more nervous about whether we knew what we were doing.

Dwinsgames

05-09-2016, 06:40 PM

That in itself makes me a lot more nervous about whether we knew what we were doing.

agree with that because the Neal tape I watched was abysmal Alabama and Michigan games , couldn't bare to watch more as I had seen enough to know I didn't want him clearly I was in the minority ( still scratching my head on that one )

Psycho Ward 86

05-09-2016, 09:25 PM

hawaiiansteeler

05-09-2016, 09:37 PM

I wonder who those guys were...I'm going to guess Keanu Neal, Artie Burns, William Jackson III, Eli Apple, Vernon Hargreaves, Jalen Ramsey

those are my exact same guesses also...

Psycho Ward 86

05-09-2016, 10:04 PM

hawaiiansteeler

05-09-2016, 10:11 PM

the fact that Karl Joseph was allegedly not one of those guys because he might have to sit a lot of his rookie year is just stupid though. that would make drafting artie burns make little sense considering how raw he is. I mean you could easily argue he was the most raw CB drafted in the first 2 rounds. Really not seeing how Artie gets any real playing time unless we use him exclusively in man coverage

I think that's exactly what the Steelers will do with Burns initially, he'll be playing in-your-face press man coverage on the boundary while the rest of the secondary plays various zone schemes around him...

steelreserve

05-09-2016, 11:25 PM

I think that's exactly what the Steelers will do with Burns initially, he'll be playing in-your-face press man coverage on the boundary while the rest of the secondary plays various zone schemes around him...

Yeah, it makes sense. We played zone a lot, but the results weren't good. Most likely we did it for damage control. If I never see our DB giving a 12-yard cushion on third-and-6 because he's Antwon Blake and he sucks, it'll be too soon.

Steelerette

05-10-2016, 10:02 AM

If we're building a defensive line which is intended to create constant pressure even in non-blitz plays, average to below average man coverage will be a lot better than awful cushion-based zone that says "Hey Tom Brady. Pressure's on. But psst, here's two automatic safety valves, on the house!"

teegre

05-10-2016, 11:44 AM

As @blackandgold posted elsewhere...

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2016/05/08/Rookie-Artie-Burns-road-to-NFL-and-Pittsburgh-Steelers/stories/201605080129

The interesting part is that Tomlin was on the phone with Burns before Cincy had made their selection. It appears that Burns was their choice all along.

Just after 10:45 April 28, draft night, Burns’ cell phone rang. He bowed his head and smiled. The Cincinnati Bengals were on the clock, No. 24 overall. For about five minutes, everyone at the party was certain Burns was headed to Cincinnati.

Finally, Artie Burns looked back up and said, “All right, Coach T.”

“Coach Who?” his agent Melvin Bratton asked.

“Coach T,” Burns replied. “We’re going to Pittsburgh.”

LLT

05-10-2016, 11:46 AM

Gotta say...Bengal fans are flipping out over this article. They just can't imagine a world in which they didn't "one-up" us somehow.

teegre

05-10-2016, 11:48 AM

the fact that Karl Joseph was allegedly not one of those guys because he might have to sit a lot of his rookie year is just stupid though. that would make drafting artie burns make little sense considering how raw he is. I mean you could easily argue he was the most raw CB drafted in the first 2 rounds. Really not seeing how Artie gets any real playing time unless we use him exclusively in man coverage

Unless... the Steelers believe that Burns will indeed start (which all signs point to).

LLT

05-10-2016, 12:19 PM

Unless... the Steelers believe that Burns will indeed start (which all signs point to).

Here is how I look at it.

1. Prior to this draft I have to admit that I totally missed out on what the Steelers saw in Burns. This was NOT a reflection of Artie Burns ability but rather my own "focus" on Apple, Alexander, and Jackson. I watched a ton of tape on those three prospects and though I liked Burns, I didn't give him the proper attention and tape breakdown that he deserved. That is on me.

2. Taking an objective look at Burns after the draft, I can honestly say that I "get it" on several levels. he seems to make decisions quickly and gets a good jump on plays both in pass and run defense. Above average hands...and seems to see the field very well. Good tackler. He is as raw as advertised, but he was a two sport athlete and never focused solely on football. Also take into consideration that he is only 21 years old...motivated...and just scratching the depth of his potential.

Think on that. Burns was one of the top corners in the ACC....earned consensus second-team All-ACC honors...had the most interceptions of any Miami player in the last 12 years...possesses world class speed...and handled the devasting death of his mother LIKE A MAN...showing maturity and responsibility.

Yea...I get it.

teegre

05-10-2016, 12:54 PM

Here is how I look at it.

1. Prior to this draft I have to admit that I totally missed out on what the Steelers saw in Burns. This was NOT a reflection of Artie Burns ability but rather my own "focus" on Apple, Alexander, and Jackson. I watched a ton of tape on those three prospects and though I liked Burns, I didn't give him the proper attention and tape breakdown that he deserved. That is on me.

2. Taking an objective look at Burns after the draft, I can honestly say that I "get it" on several levels. he seems to make decisions quickly and gets a good jump on plays both in pass and run defense. Above average hands...and seems to see the field very well. Good tackler. He is as raw as advertised, but he was a two sport athlete and never focused solely on football. Also take into consideration that he is only 21 years old...motivated...and just scratching the depth of his potential.

Think on that. Burns was one of the top corners in the ACC....earned consensus second-team All-ACC honors...had the most interceptions of any Miami player in the last 12 years...possesses world class speed...and handled the devasting death of his mother LIKE A MAN...showing maturity and responsibility.

Yea...I get it.

The thing that I keep going back to, with Burns, is that he improved every season... he kept getting better.

Learning is key: a guy who can learn is guy who will reach his potential. There are plenty of "potential" guys who never show signs of ever improving/reaching that potential; whereas, Burns has already shown that improvement... which is a good sign (that he'll get better and better and better).

Edman

05-10-2016, 02:37 PM

Bengals fans are butthurt that their big offseason dream of "sticking it" to the Steelers wasn't true at all.

hawaiiansteeler

05-10-2016, 03:22 PM

Bengals fans are butthurt that their big offseason dream of "sticking it" to the Steelers wasn't true at all.

https://media.giphy.com/media/hOLAol2sLkcco/giphy.gif

zulater

05-10-2016, 05:01 PM

Smokescreen or not I'm satisfied knowing that the Steelers got a player they wanted, not a consolation prize as many originally suspected. Whether he works out or not, who knows? But I'm happy with the thought process that went into the pick. In the end I think the age factor put Burns over the top. I think the margin of difference between Jackson and him was razor thin, so go with the younger guy.

Count Steeler

05-10-2016, 05:32 PM

730147613455044609

Yeah, he has some work to do.

Dwinsgames

05-10-2016, 06:31 PM

730147613455044609

Yeah, he has some work to do.

classic example of Low man wins , Burns looking to play off the block but didn't get low enough to win the leverage battle and didn't use a cross over move to break the hold of the wide out ... teaching moment ...

not saying he is " strong" or weak just was not technically sound enough to over come the block ...it will take Richard Mann ( wr coach ) and Lake ( DB coach ) all of about 10 minutes to set him straight on that stuff and then a bunch of reminders moving forward until it is second nature to the young man .. put me down as not concerned about that aspect of his game

hawaiiansteeler

05-10-2016, 07:43 PM

Ed Bouchette's Steelers chat transcript: 5.10.16

Steelers World: Did you like the 1st round pick? What are your thoughts on taking burns that high?

Ed Bouchette: They told me they had him rated just a hair behind William Jackson, and they had to get a cornerback, so it was a good pick in that sense, provided he backs it up with his play.

JamesinNYC: So if the stories are true Burns was rated higher than Jackson? Best smoke screen ever or revisionist history?

Ed Bouchette: They had William Jackson rated higher, but just slightly.

Brandon: Would they have taken Jackson had the Bengals not taken him?

Ed Bouchette: Yes.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2016/05/10/Ed-Bouchette-s-Steelers-chat-5-10-16/stories/201605100121

st33lersguy

05-10-2016, 08:35 PM

The Bengals attempted to get one over on the Steelers and in the end the Bengals got a CB that is as athletically gifted and raw and 3 years older. Congratulations Cinci.

Steel Peon

05-11-2016, 01:21 AM

Hopefully Tomlin didn't accidentally Jedi mind trick himself.

LLT

05-11-2016, 08:32 AM

Just after 10:45 [E.T] April 28, draft night, Burns’ cell phone rang. He bowed his head and smiled. The Cincinnati Bengals were on the clock, No. 24 overall. For about five minutes, everyone at the party was certain Burns was headed to Cincinnati.

Finally, Artie Burns looked back up and said, “All right, Coach T.”

“Coach Who?” his agent Melvin Bratton asked.

“Coach T,” Burns replied. “We’re going to Pittsburgh.”

“Now 9:47[C.T]. Cincinnati on the clock; the Bengals, at 24, called to say no (To Dallas trade). Bengals picked cornerback William Jackson III. Steelers up. Pittsburgh never considered trading at No. 25 and made a pick quickly: cornerback Artie Burns.”

http://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2016/05/10/artie-burns-was-steelers-prefered-choice-over-bengals-william-jackson/

Tomlin was on the Phone with Burns two minutes before Cincinnati called Dallas back, turned down the trade and picked William Jackson III.

hawaiiansteeler

05-11-2016, 02:28 PM

Gerry Dulac's Steelers chat transcript: 5.11.16

JamesinNYC: Hi Gerry thanks for the chat. Rumors that the Steelers were on the phone with Burns during Cincy's pick true or not? Thought Jackson was the guy but appears to be best smokescreen ever.

Gerry Dulac: They wanted Jackson. But they knew if he was gone they would gladly take Burns.

Jody: Some have been critical that Artie Burns was a reach but Eli Apple, Karl Joseph and Kenua Neal were all drafted higher than projected as well. So it looks like Defensive Backs value is on the rise and just the opposite for Defensive lineman. The entire NFL passed on Billings for 3 rounds. Do you think Burns was good value at 25?

Gerry Dulac: I've been saying that since the combine: Cornerback are becoming like quarterbacks in the draft -- they're overvalued. Teams not only are reaching to find a marquee QB, they're reaching to find the CBs to stop these QBs. I'm not saying they're overrated, I'm just saying they're going higher than they should be going. Since the combine, I have said Eli Apple will be the Steelers' No. 1 draft pick. But I -- and the Steelers -- never thought he would go 10th overall.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2016/05/11/Gerry-Dulac-s-Steelers-chat-5-11-16/stories/201605110153

SteelerFanInStl

05-11-2016, 07:06 PM

If the Steelers truly wanted Jackson, as Gerry says, wouldn't they have been trying to call him instead of talking to Burns?

LLT

05-12-2016, 07:31 AM

If the Steelers truly wanted Jackson, as Gerry says, wouldn't they have been trying to call him instead of talking to Burns?

Bingo....It all doesn't make sense. Obviously they were on the phone with Burns before the Bengals picked Jackson.

I suppose there are a few possibilities. Did one of the other teams attempting to trade up with Cincinnati tip the Steelers off to which way the Bengals were leaning? Are Bouchette and Dulac just being fed the company line so that the Steelers can repeat the same strategy in the future?

I don't know...but the record shows that the Steelers definitely contacted Artie Burns two minutes before the Bengals were on the phone to the Cowboys to turn down their trade offer and long before the Bengals turned in their pick.

I thought it interesting that Dulac never actually answered the question. He just reiterated that the Steelers liked Jackson a little better...but never commented on whether the Steelers were on the phone with Burns.