Steelers explain why they picked Hargrave over Billings

[hawaiiansteeler]

Steelers explain why they picked Hargrave over Billings

by Bryan DeArdo

In the weeks leading up to the NFL Draft, Andrew Billings and Javon Hargrave were the two most popular names when discussing who Pittsburgh might draft at defensive tackle.

A projected first round pick, Pittsburgh passed on Billings three times before Cincinnati grabbed him with the 122nd pick in the draft (the Steelers were the next team with a pick, and selected LSU offensive tackle Jerald Hawkins). Instead of taking Billings, who dined with Joe Greene before his pro day, the Steelers instead drafted Hargrave with the 89th pick in the draft.

Why did Pittsburgh take Hargrave over Billings? Here's how Bob Laboria of Steelers.com answered that question.

"If a secondary actually does get better if the front-seven pressures the quarterback, understand that Billings had 8.5 sacks during his three seasons in college, while Hargrave had 37 sacks in his four seasons," Labriola said.

So, it appears that the Steelers liked Hargrave's potential as a pass rusher more than Billings, who some have speculated fell in the draft due to his underwhelming collegiate sack total as well as his size. Last fall, Cameron Heyward and Stephon Tuitt finished first and second on the team in sacks, which played a huge role in Pittsburgh's No.3 league finish in sacks.

By employing two defensive ends that can get to the quarterback, Pittsburgh didn't have to blitz their linebackers as much, leaving them free to roam in the secondary to help the team's corners. And when the Steelers' linebackers did blitz, they provided even more pressure on opposing offenses that had enough trouble as it was trying to contain Heyward and Tuitt.

Drafting defensive linemen that can sack the quarterback has been a long-standing tradition in Pittsburgh. In 1969, the Steelers drafted L.C. Greenwood and Joe Greene, who made careers out of making life miserable for opposing quarterbacks. Greene and Greenwood later teamed them up with Ernie Holmes and Dwight White, who also had a knock for getting to the quarterback. Today, Butler wants to have a similar group of linemen that can provide pressure on the quarterback so that the rest of his defense doesn't have to, which is why the team chose to go with Hargrave over Billings.

So, while Billings will try to prove himself in Cincinnati, Hargrave will try to solidify Pittsburgh's defensive line, a line that now has the possibility of being the best in pro football for the next several seasons.

http://pit.247sports.com/Bolt/Steelers-explain-why-they-picked-Hargrave-over-Billings-45158678

[GBMelBlount]

Makes sense.

However could Billings ability to collapse the pocket and increase pressure, and sacks by teammates be more impactful overall even though not as directly measurable?

[awe1028]

Makes sense.

However could Billings ability to collapse the pocket and increase pressure, and sacks by teammates be more impactful overall even though not as directly measurable?

Good point about Billings providing just as much impact on the pass rush even if not statistically quantifiable by sacks. My problem is that the Steelers should have traded up in the fourth so they could get Billings also. I shudder to think what Billings could do the Steelers for the next 10 years.

[steelreserve]

It makes sense on one level: You want defensive linemen who can generate pressure, and Hargrave definitely looks like that kind of player.

On the other hand, though, someone has to line up at tackle. We still have to find out whether Hargrave is actually going to be able to line up there in the pros and generate the same kind of pressure or whether he's a more natural DE. If it's the latter, then we have three DEs and one of them has to fake it as a DT. Heyward has done that before, but is he still going to generate the same kind of pressure as he did at DE? (spoiler: no)

So if we just walked into a situation where we get a third pass-rushing DL player but will still only have two of them generating pressure at any given time because we're sacrificing effectiveness from one of them, than all we've done is replicate last year's DL but with more depth. The reason everyone was so excited about Billings we because there was no doubt he could line up over center and still cause major disruption, and that's a player we didn't have. With Hargrave, there's a legitimate question about whether he'll be able to do that.

I still don't think Hargrave "over" Billings is the right comparison. It's just why did they ignore Billings entirely. Billings in the second, Hargrave in the third and Dillon in the fourth was one option; Hargrave in the third and Billings in the fourth at the expense of our Mr. Irrelevant was another. I guess I also must not be that excited that we added a fringe player at offensive tackle.

[Mojouw]

Billings drops to the later third of the fourth round. 17 DT's went off the board before Billings. 17.

That means either Billings is NOT the sure thing that the internet thought he was and still talks about him being OR their was a medical/character flag of a fairly serious nature.

Point being is that 31 other franchises passed on him between 2-4 times before he got picked up. It wasn't just the Steelers having a "wonky" valuation on the player. So why are we all still convinced that it is a "sure thing" that Billings is the next great DT?

[RunNGun]

Billings drops to the later third of the fourth round. 17 DT's went off the board before Billings. 17.

That means either Billings is NOT the sure thing that the internet thought he was and still talks about him being OR their was a medical/character flag of a fairly serious nature.

Point being is that 31 other franchises passed on him between 2-4 times before he got picked up. It wasn't just the Steelers having a "wonky" valuation on the player. So why are we all still convinced that it is a "sure thing" that Billings is the next great DT?

Definitely right about that! I agree with that logic 100%. But, if he turns out to be an all-pro type of player for the Bengals it will really sting.

[steelreserve]

Billings drops to the later third of the fourth round. 17 DT's went off the board before Billings. 17.

That means either Billings is NOT the sure thing that the internet thought he was and still talks about him being OR their was a medical/character flag of a fairly serious nature.

Point being is that 31 other franchises passed on him between 2-4 times before he got picked up. It wasn't just the Steelers having a "wonky" valuation on the player. So why are we all still convinced that it is a "sure thing" that Billings is the next great DT?

Ah, the "31 other teams" argument, the lesser-known cousin of the "front office is automatically smarter than the fans" line.

Truth is, I can't say why 31 other teams passed on the guy. A good start is that two-thirds of them didn't need a defensive tackle that badly, and of the ones who did, half of those probably ran a defensive scheme that favored a different kind of player. So about six other teams who were seriously in the running for him passed him up. Then Robinson, Reed and Rankins were rated higher almost universally, so three teams passed him up. Nkemdiche was widely considered the better talent but had character risks, but the Cardinals were willing to take that chance, so two teams passed him up. Butler was on similar footing as Billings, and in fact may have fit the traits of a "pure" nose tackle even better, so one team passed him up. That team was the Bengals, and they had other urgent needs as well, just like we did.

Add to that the knee injury rumor from Friday night, true or not, and you can see a path for him to wind up there. Maybe we're all wrong and there's something to it that we don't know - but if so, nobody has come out and said what it was. In light of that, I'm much more willing to bet on my own instincts than on the fact that I must be wrong because of some unknown piece of information that may or may not exist.

My feeling is that if there was something that blatant, it would've come out by now - as you pointed out, there are 31 other teams, and there are hundreds of reporters asking questions of those teams, and the more mouths there are, the more likely it is for that kind of information to come out. Especially now that the draft is over and nobody has the need to be secretive anymore.

[Mojouw]

Ah, the "31 other teams" argument, the lesser-known cousin of the "front office is automatically smarter than the fans" line.

Truth is, I can't say why 31 other teams passed on the guy. A good start is that two-thirds of them didn't need a defensive tackle that badly, and of the ones who did, half of those probably ran a defensive scheme that favored a different kind of player. So about six other teams who were seriously in the running for him passed him up. Then Robinson, Reed and Rankins were rated higher almost universally, so three teams passed him up. Nkemdiche was widely considered the better talent but had character risks, but the Cardinals were willing to take that chance, so two teams passed him up. Butler was on similar footing as Billings, and in fact may have fit the traits of a "pure" nose tackle even better, so one team passed him up. That team was the Bengals, and they had other urgent needs as well, just like we did.

Add to that the knee injury rumor from Friday night, true or not, and you can see a path for him to wind up there. Maybe we're all wrong and there's something to it that we don't know - but if so, nobody has come out and said what it was. In light of that, I'm much more willing to bet on my own instincts than on the fact that I must be wrong because of some unknown piece of information that may or may not exist.

My feeling is that if there was something that blatant, it would've come out by now - as you pointed out, there are 31 other teams, and there are hundreds of reporters asking questions of those teams, and the more mouths there are, the more likely it is for that kind of information to come out. Especially now that the draft is over and nobody has the need to be secretive anymore.

That is all good stuff. But 17 other DTs. 17. That means over 50% of the league drafted a DT before Billings went off the board. There is something we are missing in the scouting stuff or a perception amongst coaches that has not yet come to light.

Maybe it was just teams being overly concerned with unsubstantiated injury rumors. Maybe Billings likes to kill cats. I don't know, but I find it hard to believe that a player goes from universally regarded as a top 50 prospect to having 17 other players go at his position without a reason.

Either he was never truly a top 50 prospect or something else is out there that has not been reported yet.

[steelreserve]

That is all good stuff. But 17 other DTs. 17. That means over 50% of the league drafted a DT before Billings went off the board. There is something we are missing in the scouting stuff or a perception amongst coaches that has not yet come to light.

Maybe it was just teams being overly concerned with unsubstantiated injury rumors. Maybe Billings likes to kill cats. I don't know, but I find it hard to believe that a player goes from universally regarded as a top 50 prospect to having 17 other players go at his position without a reason.

Either he was never truly a top 50 prospect or something else is out there that has not been reported yet.


Either one of those would still be OK with me. Who knows, maybe he farted during his pre-draft interview. Yes, I agree something looks a bit odd, but this position in particular is one where a lot of prospects have fallen super-far, so who knows. Bottom line, do I think he was still worth taking a chance on with a third-round or fourth-round pick? Not even any hesitation at all.

[ALLD]

I am not opposed to killing cats, but kittens are off limits.

[MrPgh]

Billings drops to the later third of the fourth round. 17 DT's went off the board before Billings. 17.

That means either Billings is NOT the sure thing that the internet thought he was and still talks about him being OR their was a medical/character flag of a fairly serious nature.

Point being is that 31 other franchises passed on him between 2-4 times before he got picked up. It wasn't just the Steelers having a "wonky" valuation on the player. So why are we all still convinced that it is a "sure thing" that Billings is the next great DT?

Kind of reminds me of Louis Nix III from a few years ago. There were Steelers fan screaming at the top of their lungs for the team to take him in the first round. He eventually fell to the third round where the Texans drafted him and was eventually waived. He's on the Giants now where he's basically made zero impact.

I think certain fans are so fixated on finding the next Casey Hampton that they want the Steelers to reach in the draft to get that perceived guy.

[Texasteel]

I have a habit of fixing on one or two players myself. I liked Billings a lot, but he did have his short comes, particularly with the pass rush. I've read and seen that he can get a little lost in the backfield. He didn't disengage from a blocker or change direction very well. As I have mentioned before he is strong against the run, but a little weak in the pass rush department. I guess this was enough for the Steelers to go in a different direction. Billing may go on to be an All Pro, who knows, but as of draft day I am no longer a Billings fan.

[Mojouw]

I have a habit of fixing on one or two players myself. I liked Billings a lot, but he did have his short comes, particularly with the pass rush. I've read and seen that he can get a little lost in the backfield. He didn't disengage from a blocker or change direction very well. As I have mentioned before he is strong against the run, but a little weak in the pass rush department. I guess this was enough for the Steelers to go in a different direction. Billing may go on to be an All Pro, who knows, but as of draft day I am no longer a Billings fan.

Good post. Here are a few draft evaluation that seems to echo your comments

http://www.thehuddlereport.com/archive/2016profiles/Andrew.Billings.htm

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/4/27/11511646/2016-nfl-draft-scouting-report-andrew-billings-baylor

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/03/23/draft-pff-scouting-report-andrew-billings-dl-baylor/

[MrPgh]

I have a habit of fixing on one or two players myself. I liked Billings a lot, but he did have his short comes, particularly with the pass rush. I've read and seen that he can get a little lost in the backfield. He didn't disengage from a blocker or change direction very well. As I have mentioned before he is strong against the run, but a little weak in the pass rush department. I guess this was enough for the Steelers to go in a different direction. Billing may go on to be an All Pro, who knows, but as of draft day I am no longer a Billings fan.

If LeBeau was still around they might have taken Billings over Hargrave. Under Butler though they want their DLs to get a pass rush and get sacks.

[Dwinsgames]

kind of misleading , says " Steelers explain " so was expecting an official statement of sorts , only to find out it wasnt any such thing but instead Labs explaining " his take" .. kind of click bait

[Steelerette]

I've read and seen that he can get a little lost in the backfield. He didn't disengage from a blocker or change direction very well.Which can essentially describe McCullers too. So maybe their thinking was, even if Billings is a more ideal height, why draft the same guy? You've got to love the way Hargrave seems to have a nose for where the football is, the danger is that it could be attributed to level of competition. But I guess our scouts and coaches saw enough from the shrine game, senior bowl, and pre-draft stuff, to make the call for him. If you get a chance to watch the shrine game, he dominated, and it was a pleasure to watch.

[tube517]

If Hargrave becomes a star, look for him to ride in this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Grave-digger-monster-jam-2014.jpg

[steelreserve]

See, this is the kind of thing I just don't know. Everything I'd seen about Billings pointed toward the fact that even though he didn't get a ton of sacks, he would FUCK UP the play all the time. Now hearing the opposite of that. Which one is right? Who knows. I sure wish we had both guys to find that out, but alas.

Assuming they were equally disruptive, I'd rather have the 320 or 330-pound fat guy who could play both positions than the 290-pound guy who might not. But hard to tell if that is the case.

[Steelerette]

See, this is the kind of thing I just don't know.
I wanted Billings too. I'm just trying to ferret out the FO's line of thinking on the draft choice. I don't know how much influence Tomlin had on the decision but he seems to favor splash plays over consistent productivity. You don't really need an interior DT who has a lot of sacks; if you want a ballhawk DB they better not give up tons of yards and plays all the time when they're not getting their hands on the ball; we don't need a WR who makes occasional circus catches but is otherwise Limas Sweed (got lucky with Martavis... until he got high. Jury's out on Coates...).

Made me think of a little song actually.

I was gonna catch the ball but I got high
I could've drawn an interference call but I got high
Now I've got the whole year off and I know why...

[Mojouw]

I wanted Billings too. I'm just trying to ferret out the FO's line of thinking on the draft choice. I don't know how much influence Tomlin had on the decision but he seems to favor splash plays over consistent productivity. You don't really need an interior DT who has a lot of sacks; if you want a ballhawk DB they better not give up tons of yards and plays all the time when they're not getting their hands on the ball; we don't need a WR who makes occasional circus catches but is otherwise Limas Sweed (got lucky with Martavis... until he got high. Jury's out on Coates...).

Made me think of a little song actually.

I was gonna catch the ball but I got high
I could've drawn an interference call but I got high
Now I've got the whole year off and I know why...

Cause I got high. Cause I got hiiiiiii-----gggghhhh!

I see the statement that Tomlin and the Steelers staff favors "splash" over "consistency" a lot. Then I see what they say in press conferences and I get where people are pulling it from. Then I think about the games. Except for the Blake/Boykin ummm, let's go with "situation" (simply because it is too early in the day for "cluster%&$#) - where else is that statement true?

Shamarko Thomas and any potential he has for "splash" is nailed to the bench because he is too damn dumb to play his position with any consistency. The zombie corpse of Will Allen got an extra few years on his NFL career by being steady and not splashy.

Harrison was brought back because he can still sometimes make a splash, but mostly because he sets the edge down after down - something Jones finally seemed to learn to do towards the end of last season.

Shazier lost his job his rookie year after returning from injury because he ran around like a chicken with his head cut off trying to make a play rather than just executing his assignment.

Bongtavious sat half his rookie year until he proved he could run more of the route tree than a "go". Then he got called out at multiple points in his second season for needing to be more consistent.

I would totally agree that the Steelers from Tomlin and the coaches to Colbert and the scouts seem to be highly valuing splashy athletes when it comes to acquiring players and that can sometimes lead to some head scratching draft picks and off-season moves, but when it comes to putting 22 guys on the field, there still appears to me to be a pretty solid emphasis on executing the basics of each individual position first. With the obvious glaring exception noted above.

[teegre]

This is essentially the same discussion that was had when the Steelers drafted Stephon Tuitt instead of Louis Nix III...

Really.

Switch the two names... and re-read some older posts.

[Psycho Ward 86]

This is essentially the same discussion that was had when the Steelers drafted Stephon Tuitt instead of Louis Nix III...

Really.

Switch the two names... and re-read some older posts.

That wouldn't surprise me, but there's another aspect of the conversation that was true as well. People still LOVED the Tuitt pick. I remember feeling that way anyways. People seem to overwhelmingly like Hargrave being picked as well. I certainly dont see anyone currently complaining that we should have taken Billings over Hargrave outright

[MrPgh]

This is essentially the same discussion that was had when the Steelers drafted Stephon Tuitt instead of Louis Nix III...

Really.

Switch the two names... and re-read some older posts.

I don't think it was so much that fans wanted Nix over Tuitt, they wanted Nix because they thought he was the next Casey Hampton. At the time they would have preferred both Nix and Tuitt. Besides, the Steelers had wasted one pick in that draft with Archer. No need to waste two. :)

[pczach]

I don't think it was so much that fans wanted Nix over Tuitt, they wanted Nix because they thought he was the next Casey Hampton. At the time they would have preferred both Nix and Tuitt. Besides, the Steelers had wasted one pick in that draft with Archer. No need to waste two. :)


I remember with Tuitt, I was worried about his injury. I had heard from some "experts" that they were worried about his medical. A few of the guys here told me that he was cleared of any medical issues that would be an issue going forward. At that moment, I immediately said Tuitt was the guy. He was much more dynamic than Nix, and I thought he would be awesome here. Luckily, they were able to draft him, and he has been a phenomenal player to this point of his career. He can be a force here for a long time.

I think most fans were very happy to draft Tuitt. Some still loved Nix, but were happy with Tuitt as a consolation prize.

[teegre]

Besides, the Steelers had wasted one pick in that draft with Archer. No need to waste two. :)

Archer vs. Nix... diarrhea vs. vomiting :lol:

[hawaiiansteeler]

Why the Slide?: Andrew Billings

By Charlie Campbell

Two years ago, we started a series of articles on why certain prospects went undrafted. In that series, I reach out to sources with NFL teams to find out why their organizations passed on drafting a given player, and/or, what were the reasons for other teams to pass on that prospect. We got a lot of positive reader feedback about the series, so we decided to expand in the genre to investigate why some prospects slid in the draft. Last year, we started the Why Slide? series, and this year, it is back. Feel free to email me requests for "Why the Slide?" and "Why Undrafted?" at draftcampbell@gmail.com. I can't promise to get to all of them, but I will do my best and definitely respond.

During the lead up to the 2016 NFL Draft, it was commonplace for Baylor defensive tackle Andrew Billings to be projected to be an early-round selection. Many mock drafts had Billings in the first round, I had him in the second round. Nobody thought he would end up slipping to the third day of the 2016 NFL Draft. The 2016 class was extremely strong for interior defensive lineman, and that played a role in Billings sliding all the way to the fourth round before being selected by the Cincinnati Bengals. In a typical year of defensive linemen, Billings would probably have gone on the second day.

In speaking with sources prior to the 2016 NFL Draft, every team I spoke with said they had Billings graded on the second day of the draft. The media was overzealous in projecting Billings to be a first-round pick. There were a few reasons why teams had Billings on Day 2. The dominant reason was that Billings was viewed as a two-down defender who will come off the field in passing situations because they don't project Billings to be an effective pass-rusher in the NFL. Another reason why he slid was a lack of height. At 6-foot, Billings was limited to certain teams.

In speaking with teams that run a 3-4 especially, they want players who are taller and provide more length. Sources at 4-3 teams also like more height and length in their linemen. Thus, the size and perception of being limited to certain in-game situations hurt Billings.

The Bengals were an excellent landing spot for Billings. He could be the replacement and upgrade over aging veteran Domata Peko. Peko is declining in his play, and Billings is a natural nose tackle to pair with Geno Atkins in the middle of the Bengals' line. Even with Peko coming back, Billings should immediately be part of Cincinnati's rotation as Devon Still and Brandon Thompson didn't pan out. Still signed with Houston this offseason. The Bengals have other veterans like Pat Sims, Marcus Hardison and Thompson competing up front, but Billings is younger and with more upside. It wouldn't be surprising if Billings develops into a solid nose tackle for the Bengals.

http://walterfootball.com/ws2016abillings.php#Er234BitYDcxqtU4.99

[lipps83]

It wouldn't be surprising if Billings develops into a solid nose tackle for the Bengals.

http://walterfootball.com/ws2016abillings.php#Er234BitYDcxqtU4.99

I fucking hope not. Bengals defense is only getting better. I prefer to see them get worse instead.

I wish they actually sucked as much as I say they suck, but it isn't true just because I say so.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Bengals rookie Andrew Billings out indefinitely after meniscus surgery

Posted by Darin Gantt on August 15, 2016

https://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/490154998-e1471281199472.jpg?w=235

It’s not a good day to be a rookie defensive tackle.

According to Adam Schefter of ESPN, Bengals rookie Andrew Billings had surgery to repair a torn meniscus, and could be lost for the entire season.

Billings was carted off the field during joint practices with the Vikings last week, though there was some hope the injury wasn’t serious.

Now, the Bengals’ depth will be tested, as the fourth-rounder from Baylor was expected to play a significant role behind Geno Atkins this year. The Bengals also lost fist-round cornerback William Jackson III to a torn pectoral muscle, though they’re holding out hope he can return.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/08/15/bengals-rookie-andrew-billings-out-indefinitely-after-meniscus-surgery/

[BlackAndGold]

Sucks to hear about Billings. Hopefully he recovers.

[86WARD]

Karma.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Alex Kozora ‏@Alex_Kozora

One base DL grouping that was interesting. Hargrave at RDE. First time I have seen it. #Steelers

https://twitter.com/Alex_Kozora?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp %7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

[Psycho Ward 86]

Alex Kozora ‏@Alex_Kozora

One base DL grouping that was interesting. Hargrave at RDE. First time I have seen it. #Steelers

https://twitter.com/Alex_Kozora?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp %7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

we all know it was happening eventually. really excited to see Hargrave rotate in with Tuitt and Cam

[ALLD]

What an unfortunate coincidence for Cincy.

[Steelerette]

"Because they had a crystal ball."

[Psycho Ward 86]

we better see a heavy dose of Hargrave on Sunday