Steelers release CB Cortez Allen

[polamalubeast]

http://www.steelers.com/news/transactions/article-1/Steelers-release-CB-Allen/837bcab1-be75-40cd-916f-1e20d0347f90

[Shoes]

Good, he was a team parasite and nothing more.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Hopefully its a post June 1st cut.

I was initially tempted to say "Why did they cut him now and telegraph our draft plans"

But then I remembered what our secondary looks like :lol:

[steelreserve]

Interesting. Obviously this is a financial decision related to some other move they are making, but what? New signing? Contract extension? Wait and see, I guess...

[polamalubeast]

Hopefully its a post June 1st cut.

I was initially tempted to say "Why did they cut him now and telegraph our draft plans"

But then I remembered what our secondary looks like :lol:

721071340636258305

[Dwinsgames]

not a ton of saving this way for this year BUT , its now water under the bridge

[polamalubeast]

721072911554113540

[steelreserve]

Also, when you cut a player June 1, you don't actually get the cap space until June 1. If you want to do something NOW, you have to release the player now. So why would we do it? Not to free up space for the draft class; no reason that has to be done now. Probably not for extending our own players; usually you can work that out so the first year doesn't increase their cap hit much, if at all.

Possibly a free-agent signing? Who is out there? All the cornerbacks are gone, so that's probably not it. No defensive tackles to speak of either. There are a couple of 30-year-old safeties who were once good, but have been on the market for weeks - that could be it, if it just took that long to come to terms, but nothing jumps out.

DEs were also all gone, so no help for us there ... then two days ago, Dominique Easley gets waived. Now there could be an interesting possibility. Probably not commanding huge money, helps us even if he's just a decent rotational player, and likely could be gotten on a low-risk deal. And we really need not one but TWO solid players along the DL in order not to be thin at the position. I wouldn't bet money on it, but it is quite possible we would see an opportunity to fill a void like that before the draft and jump on it.

[Psycho Ward 86]

721071340636258305

hmm the numbers are better than i thought. on 2nd thought i like this

[stillers4me]

721072579335884800

[Devilsdancefloor]

I know 1.7 isn't a lot of savings, but that will sign the rookie class or close to it. Also I had high hopes, but he lost interest and became a IR regular. I think they also know he knee isn't that great if he comes to OTA's or camp gets hurt another year sitting on IR making $$$!

[st33lersguy]

Good, he was as useless as an asshole on an elbow

[Dwinsgames]

waiting for the post .....

Cortez Allen signs with Titans ...


wait for it .....

[ALLD]

Cardinals or FedEx.

[hawaiiansteeler]

waiting for the post .....

Cortez Allen signs with Titans ...


wait for it .....

Antwon Blake and Cortez Allen will be the Titans opening day starting CB...

[Craic]

Also, when you cut a player June 1, you don't actually get the cap space until June 1. If you want to do something NOW, you have to release the player now. So why would we do it? Not to free up space for the draft class; no reason that has to be done now. Probably not for extending our own players; usually you can work that out so the first year doesn't increase their cap hit much, if at all.

Possibly a free-agent signing? Who is out there? All the cornerbacks are gone, so that's probably not it. No defensive tackles to speak of either. There are a couple of 30-year-old safeties who were once good, but have been on the market for weeks - that could be it, if it just took that long to come to terms, but nothing jumps out.

DEs were also all gone, so no help for us there ... then two days ago, Dominique Easley gets waived. Now there could be an interesting possibility. Probably not commanding huge money, helps us even if he's just a decent rotational player, and likely could be gotten on a low-risk deal. And we really need not one but TWO solid players along the DL in order not to be thin at the position. I wouldn't bet money on it, but it is quite possible we would see an opportunity to fill a void like that before the draft and jump on it.

We disagree quite a bit, but that's some good logic right there.

[Shoes]

The Patriots released defensive tackle Dominique Easley (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9606/dominique-easley) on Wednesday, ending his run with the team less than two full years after he was selected in the first round of the 2014 draft.
Easley’s two seasons with the Patriots saw him perform solidly when he was on the field, although he wasn’t on the field as often as the team would have liked. He missed 10 games over the last two years with a variety of injuries, although one of Easley’s former teammates in New England told Ben Volin of the Boston Globethat health wasn’t the only reason he was unsurprised by Wednesday’s news.“Saw that coming,” Easley’s unnamed former teammate said. “Injuries and locker room cancer (http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2016/04/13/patriots-release-dominique-easley/VxfcDYPp0ieEh0mDVBRp5H/story.html).”
Easley reportedly butted heads with the Patriots over how to rehab his injuries and Volin spoke to other league sources who advanced the narrative of Easley upsetting people off the field. One source called Easley “disrespectful and irresponsible” and he faces a lawsuit from a friend who says Easley’s dog attacked him while he was staying at Easley’s house. Per Volin, Easley is also bracing for a pair of other lawsuits.
The Patriots took a cap hit to get rid of Easley and will be on the hook for his entire salary if he doesn’t land another job, so there doesn’t appear to have been much hope in New England that things were going to get better. We’ll find out Thursday if another team is willing to make the opposite bet by claiming Easley off of waivers.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/04/14/former-teammate-injuries-and-locker-room-cancer-led-to-dominique-easley-release/

[Psycho Ward 86]

Cardinals or FedEx.

:lol:

[fansince'76]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZYdo2RUsAAVrtW.jpg

[86WARD]

If not for Bryant, this offseason would be as close to perfect as one could ask...

[zulater]

It's amazing the revisionist history that goes on here at times. Very few were complaining when the Steelers signed Cortez to his last contract. Yes it was somewhat of a gamble, but at the time it seemed like a reasonable risk. He really played well in the opportunities he was given with the Steelers his first few years For those of you that worship at the alter of Profootballfocus and Brandon Boykin here's a reminder of what they thought of Cortez Allen at the time.

SECRET SUPERSTAR: CORTEZ ALLEN
The Steelers need to get younger and more talented, especially on defense, and they are getting there with Secret Superstar Cortez Allen.

tepping Up

With all that in mind, it perhaps shouldn’t have been a surprise that Allen was able to impress in 2012. Given the opportunity as the teams’ nickel back after William Gay had departed for Arizona, and Keenan Lewis moving into his starting role, he didn’t really struggle much early on, an impressive feat given how difficult it can be to cover in the slot. For some teams, the nickel corner isn’t necessarily the guy who covers the slot receiver, with them coming onto the field and taking an outside receiver while the team’s top cover man moves inside.

That wasn’t the case in Pittsburgh, where Allen saw 288 of his 563 defensive snaps come in the slot. In fact, he was rarely used on the outside until he took over for the injured Ike Taylor in the Week 13 matchup with the Baltimore Ravens. Like in 2011, he was targeted frequently, with quarterbacks going after him once every 4.7 snaps in the slot.

Unlike 2011 however, this time he allowed just 60.5% of those passes to be completed. On the outside he was even more impressive, allowing a completion percentage of just 55.9%. He finished the year having allowed just 448 yards and a single touchdown through the air, while picking off two passes and breaking up nine more. That meant he got his hands on one out of every seven passes thrown into his coverage, a pretty impressive stat for the second-year man out of The Citadel.

Defining Game

It’s obviously important for players to be consistent but plenty of our Secret Superstars this year had a defining game that highlighted just how good they can be heading into the future and for Cortez Allen, that game came in Week 16 at home to the Cincinnati Bengals.

In a game that most Steelers fans will want to forget, considering it saw them eliminated from playoff contention, Allen had a game to remember. Matched up often with A.J. Green, Bengals quarterback Andy Dalton took his chances with Allen, sending 10 passes the way of Green while in Allen’s coverage. While he did allow six completions to Green, none went for more than 15 yards and he limited Green to just 60 yards in his coverage while forcing a fumble too.

When not lined up against Green he was dangerous, breaking up one pass and picking off two to ensure that Andy Dalton will surely think twice before going after him when the two teams meet in 2013.

Full-Time Starter

In a move that sees Allen follow a nice progression from rarely used to role player, and now to full-time starter, he replaces new New Orleans Saints player Keenan Lewis in the Steelers first-team defense. Like all of our Secret Superstars, there’s still plenty of room for Allen to grow. However, given his strong play in the slot and the way he played to finish the season, it’s not a stretch to say that he’s already the best player at the position on the Steelers roster. With more snaps in 2012 he showed he belonged on the field for the Steelers and, with a little more improvement in 2013 and beyond, it won’t be long until he’s getting the credit his play deserves.



:lol:

Anyway they weren't wrong, Cortez did have game, but he lost it due somewhat to injury, but more to a complete loss of confidence. It was kind of sad in a way, because early on he had a few plays where he was in good position but did a poor job locating the ball and gave up the catch. But I think what really got to him was that he was given no leeway by the refs. He got a series of ticky tack calls against him that the name corners like Sherman and Talib get away with routinely, and things just spiraled away from him. It will be interesting to see if LeBeau makes a grab for him. I think there could be some redemption for Allen if he is shifted to safety/ nickel back. He can't match up with teams top two receivers consistently and stay good, but he can function well in certain defenses given the right coverage assignment. I wont be surprised at all if he rebounds elsewhere.

That said the Steelers had no choice but to release him at the number he was set to make. And also I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't rebound. Because once you lose confidence in yourself there's no guarantee you'll ever get it back.

Anyway I just thought some of you needed reminding that Cortez once was viewed in a favorable light by not only the Steelers, but by the league and even the "all knowing" analytical sites. The mindset of this thread seems to be "good riddance to bad rubbish, I always knew this guy had no game, what were the Steelers thinking?"

Some players just don't stand up to the scrutiny of a big payday and an expanded role after shining in limited play. And sometimes you just can't tell until you give them the sink or swim chance of being thrown in the deep water.

[Dwinsgames]

It's amazing the revisionist history that goes on here at times. Very few were complaining when the Steelers signed Cortez to his last contract. Yes it was somewhat of a gamble, but at the time it seemed like a reasonable risk. He really played well in the opportunities he was given with the Steelers his first few years For those of you that worship at the alter of Profootballfocus and Brandon Boykin here's a reminder of what they thought of Cortez Allen at the time.

SECRET SUPERSTAR: CORTEZ ALLEN
The Steelers need to get younger and more talented, especially on defense, and they are getting there with Secret Superstar Cortez Allen.

tepping Up

With all that in mind, it perhaps shouldn’t have been a surprise that Allen was able to impress in 2012. Given the opportunity as the teams’ nickel back after William Gay had departed for Arizona, and Keenan Lewis moving into his starting role, he didn’t really struggle much early on, an impressive feat given how difficult it can be to cover in the slot. For some teams, the nickel corner isn’t necessarily the guy who covers the slot receiver, with them coming onto the field and taking an outside receiver while the team’s top cover man moves inside.

That wasn’t the case in Pittsburgh, where Allen saw 288 of his 563 defensive snaps come in the slot. In fact, he was rarely used on the outside until he took over for the injured Ike Taylor in the Week 13 matchup with the Baltimore Ravens. Like in 2011, he was targeted frequently, with quarterbacks going after him once every 4.7 snaps in the slot.

Unlike 2011 however, this time he allowed just 60.5% of those passes to be completed. On the outside he was even more impressive, allowing a completion percentage of just 55.9%. He finished the year having allowed just 448 yards and a single touchdown through the air, while picking off two passes and breaking up nine more. That meant he got his hands on one out of every seven passes thrown into his coverage, a pretty impressive stat for the second-year man out of The Citadel.

Defining Game

It’s obviously important for players to be consistent but plenty of our Secret Superstars this year had a defining game that highlighted just how good they can be heading into the future and for Cortez Allen, that game came in Week 16 at home to the Cincinnati Bengals.

In a game that most Steelers fans will want to forget, considering it saw them eliminated from playoff contention, Allen had a game to remember. Matched up often with A.J. Green, Bengals quarterback Andy Dalton took his chances with Allen, sending 10 passes the way of Green while in Allen’s coverage. While he did allow six completions to Green, none went for more than 15 yards and he limited Green to just 60 yards in his coverage while forcing a fumble too.

When not lined up against Green he was dangerous, breaking up one pass and picking off two to ensure that Andy Dalton will surely think twice before going after him when the two teams meet in 2013.

Full-Time Starter

In a move that sees Allen follow a nice progression from rarely used to role player, and now to full-time starter, he replaces new New Orleans Saints player Keenan Lewis in the Steelers first-team defense. Like all of our Secret Superstars, there’s still plenty of room for Allen to grow. However, given his strong play in the slot and the way he played to finish the season, it’s not a stretch to say that he’s already the best player at the position on the Steelers roster. With more snaps in 2012 he showed he belonged on the field for the Steelers and, with a little more improvement in 2013 and beyond, it won’t be long until he’s getting the credit his play deserves.



:lol:

Anyway they weren't wrong, Cortez did have game, but he lost it due somewhat to injury, but more to a complete loss of confidence. It was kind of sad in a way, because early on he had a few plays where he was in good position but did a poor job locating the ball and gave up the catch. But I think what really got to him was that he was given no leeway by the refs. He got a series of ticky tack calls against him that the name corners like Sherman and Talib get away with routinely, and things just spiraled away from him. It will be interesting to see if LeBeau makes a grab for him. I think there could be some redemption for Allen if he is shifted to safety/ nickel back. He can't match up with teams top two receivers consistently and stay good, but he can function well in certain defenses given the right coverage assignment. I wont be surprised at all if he rebounds elsewhere.

That said the Steelers had no choice but to release him at the number he was set to make. And also I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't rebound. Because once you lose confidence in yourself there's no guarantee you'll ever get it back.

Anyway I just thought some of you needed reminding that Cortez once was viewed in a favorable light by not only the Steelers, but by the league and even the "all knowing" analytical sites. The mindset of this thread seems to be "good riddance to bad rubbish, I always knew this guy had no game, what were the Steelers thinking?"

Some players just don't stand up to the scrutiny of a big payday and an expanded role after shining in limited play. And sometimes you just can't tell until you give them the sink or swim chance of being thrown in the deep water.


would have been a good post had you not tainted it with Boykin who has no business being involved in this topic as they are two separate situations and Boykin never went through the lows that Allen did on the field . Allen looked really good then sank like a rock , Boykin looked really good and was hid on the bench and then looked good again he has never sank talent wise so lets not mix the two scenarios and claim them to be one in the same or even similar

[steelreserve]

It's not "revisionist history." It was the right move at the time, but the risk didn't work out. Ergo, a misstep. They happen.

The plain fact is that he sucks NOW, and getting rid of him is now the right move, and there's nothing wrong with any of us for saying it.

[tube517]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZYdo2RUsAAVrtW.jpg

Is this a bash Antwon Blake thread. :coffee: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Psycho Ward 86]

It's amazing the revisionist history that goes on here at times. Very few were complaining when the Steelers signed Cortez to his last contract. Yes it was somewhat of a gamble, but at the time it seemed like a reasonable risk. He really played well in the opportunities he was given with the Steelers his first few years For those of you that worship at the alter of Profootballfocus and Brandon Boykin here's a reminder of what they thought of Cortez Allen at the time.

SECRET SUPERSTAR: CORTEZ ALLEN
The Steelers need to get younger and more talented, especially on defense, and they are getting there with Secret Superstar Cortez Allen.

tepping Up

With all that in mind, it perhaps shouldn’t have been a surprise that Allen was able to impress in 2012. Given the opportunity as the teams’ nickel back after William Gay had departed for Arizona, and Keenan Lewis moving into his starting role, he didn’t really struggle much early on, an impressive feat given how difficult it can be to cover in the slot. For some teams, the nickel corner isn’t necessarily the guy who covers the slot receiver, with them coming onto the field and taking an outside receiver while the team’s top cover man moves inside.

That wasn’t the case in Pittsburgh, where Allen saw 288 of his 563 defensive snaps come in the slot. In fact, he was rarely used on the outside until he took over for the injured Ike Taylor in the Week 13 matchup with the Baltimore Ravens. Like in 2011, he was targeted frequently, with quarterbacks going after him once every 4.7 snaps in the slot.

Unlike 2011 however, this time he allowed just 60.5% of those passes to be completed. On the outside he was even more impressive, allowing a completion percentage of just 55.9%. He finished the year having allowed just 448 yards and a single touchdown through the air, while picking off two passes and breaking up nine more. That meant he got his hands on one out of every seven passes thrown into his coverage, a pretty impressive stat for the second-year man out of The Citadel.

Defining Game

It’s obviously important for players to be consistent but plenty of our Secret Superstars this year had a defining game that highlighted just how good they can be heading into the future and for Cortez Allen, that game came in Week 16 at home to the Cincinnati Bengals.

In a game that most Steelers fans will want to forget, considering it saw them eliminated from playoff contention, Allen had a game to remember. Matched up often with A.J. Green, Bengals quarterback Andy Dalton took his chances with Allen, sending 10 passes the way of Green while in Allen’s coverage. While he did allow six completions to Green, none went for more than 15 yards and he limited Green to just 60 yards in his coverage while forcing a fumble too.

When not lined up against Green he was dangerous, breaking up one pass and picking off two to ensure that Andy Dalton will surely think twice before going after him when the two teams meet in 2013.

Full-Time Starter

In a move that sees Allen follow a nice progression from rarely used to role player, and now to full-time starter, he replaces new New Orleans Saints player Keenan Lewis in the Steelers first-team defense. Like all of our Secret Superstars, there’s still plenty of room for Allen to grow. However, given his strong play in the slot and the way he played to finish the season, it’s not a stretch to say that he’s already the best player at the position on the Steelers roster. With more snaps in 2012 he showed he belonged on the field for the Steelers and, with a little more improvement in 2013 and beyond, it won’t be long until he’s getting the credit his play deserves.



:lol:

Anyway they weren't wrong, Cortez did have game, but he lost it due somewhat to injury, but more to a complete loss of confidence. It was kind of sad in a way, because early on he had a few plays where he was in good position but did a poor job locating the ball and gave up the catch. But I think what really got to him was that he was given no leeway by the refs. He got a series of ticky tack calls against him that the name corners like Sherman and Talib get away with routinely, and things just spiraled away from him. It will be interesting to see if LeBeau makes a grab for him. I think there could be some redemption for Allen if he is shifted to safety/ nickel back. He can't match up with teams top two receivers consistently and stay good, but he can function well in certain defenses given the right coverage assignment. I wont be surprised at all if he rebounds elsewhere.

That said the Steelers had no choice but to release him at the number he was set to make. And also I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't rebound. Because once you lose confidence in yourself there's no guarantee you'll ever get it back.

Anyway I just thought some of you needed reminding that Cortez once was viewed in a favorable light by not only the Steelers, but by the league and even the "all knowing" analytical sites. The mindset of this thread seems to be "good riddance to bad rubbish, I always knew this guy had no game, what were the Steelers thinking?"

Some players just don't stand up to the scrutiny of a big payday and an expanded role after shining in limited play. And sometimes you just can't tell until you give them the sink or swim chance of being thrown in the deep water.

thats not revisionist history. Cortez actually was going to be good until he kept getting hurt. Then he played hurt and got burned and lost all of his confidence. He was great his rookie season and big part of our dominating win against the patriots. He followed that up by grading out as the best slot corner in the league. And he arguably outplayed Keenan Lewis who was having a breakout year and he created like what, 4-5 turnovers in 3 games? The following year he really started to get banged up and still managed to have like 9 games where he allowed a QB rating of 60 or less. The rest is history. Sometimes you take a gamble on a contract and you win BIG (Antonio Brown), other times, not so much.

revisionist history would be steeler fans talking up Manny Sanders for a couple years, then talking shit about him when he left even though he became a pro bowl receiver (and well deserved too) and really didnt do or say anything bad his entire time in the league. unless you're an over sensitive PC wimp who cried when he said peyton is a better leader than ben

[Born2Steel]

It does grate the nerves a little when players leave and are immediately gang rushed with insults and trash talk about how bad they sucked. Just a little class would be nice. Sorry it didn't work out here. 'Obviously' Cortez had talent and made us better when he was able. Good luck wherever he lands.

[zulater]

would have been a good post had you not tainted it with Boykin who has no business being involved in this topic as they are two separate situations and Boykin never went through the lows that Allen did on the field . Allen looked really good then sank like a rock , Boykin looked really good and was hid on the bench and then looked good again he has never sank talent wise so lets not mix the two scenarios and claim them to be one in the same or even similar

My bringing Boykin into it is reference to how an expanded role for a "bit player" will often expose that players limitations. I'm of the opinion that Boykin is a guy that will max out and decline if he's given starters reps.

Amos Zereoue is a similar example of that sort of player at a different position.

So my post, my relevance.

[fansince'76]

revisionist history would be steeler fans talking up Manny Sanders for a couple years, then talking shit about him when he left even though he became a pro bowl receiver (and well deserved too) and really didnt do or say anything bad his entire time in the league.

Who did that? My main memory of Sanders when he was still with us were his drops.

https://cbsbaltimore.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/452440113_8.jpg?w=594

[Psycho Ward 86]

Who did that? My main memory of Sanders when he was still with us were his drops.

https://cbsbaltimore.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/452440113_8.jpg?w=594

hence the phrase couple of years. his final season didnt go well, and the fanbase opinion on him seemed really sour before the season even started just because he mulled an offer from the patriots

[fansince'76]

hence the phrase couple of years. his final season didnt go well, and the fanbase opinion on him seemed really sour before the season even started just because he mulled an offer from the patriots

Wasn't he an RFA at the time and the Steelers matched the offer? I do remember a lot of people thinking we should have let him walk and taken the 3rd round(?) tender from the Patriots.

[steelreserve]

revisionist history would be steeler fans talking up Manny Sanders for a couple years, then talking shit about him when he left even though he became a pro bowl receiver (and well deserved too) and really didnt do or say anything bad his entire time in the league. unless you're an over sensitive PC wimp who cried when he said peyton is a better leader than ben


I don't think anyone's talking shit about Sanders. He was OK for us, left for reasons no one could blame him for, then became much better. My only gripe is with Steelers fans saying Sanders was a home-run draft pick for US, when the amount of good he did us was actually pretty limited and most of it was for other teams.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I don't think anyone's talking shit about Sanders. He was OK for us, left for reasons no one could blame him for, then became much better. My only gripe is with Steelers fans saying Sanders was a home-run draft pick for US, when the amount of good he did us was actually pretty limited and most of it was for other teams.

why do you insist upon defining a good draft pick as someone who only plays well for us? Some people take some time to develop and by the time they get to that cross roads, the home team cant always keep them. thats just business. were guys like mike vrabel and brett favre bad picks too?

[katmandu]

The Patriots released defensive tackle Dominique Easley (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9606/dominique-easley) on Wednesday, .......... Easley’s unnamed former teammate said. “Injuries and locker room cancer (http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2016/04/13/patriots-release-dominique-easley/VxfcDYPp0ieEh0mDVBRp5H/story.html).”

One source called Easley “disrespectful and irresponsible” and he faces a lawsuit from a friend who says Easley’s dog attacked him while he was staying at Easley’s house. Per Volin, Easley is also bracing for a pair of other lawsuits.Looks like a good POS candidate for the Bugholes.

[Dwinsgames]

My bringing Boykin into it is reference to how an expanded role for a "bit player" will often expose that players limitations. I'm of the opinion that Boykin is a guy that will max out and decline if he's given starters reps.

Amos Zereoue is a similar example of that sort of player at a different position.

So my post, my relevance.



naaa not even close to famous Amos situation either ...

Boykin has logged a TON of snaps in this league prior to coming here and will again now that he is gone ... he was a starter in Philly ( sort of anyways ) the nickle backer is practically a starter on many defenses playing 2 out of every 3 downs on average . Amos had a few games give or take .... was out of the league by this point in Boykins career and played far less snaps ( from memory anyways ) and a completely different pos ..

your grasping at straws on this one

[zulater]

naaa not even close to famous Amos situation either ...

Boykin has logged a TON of snaps in this league prior to coming here and will again now that he is gone ... he was a starter in Philly ( sort of anyways ) the nickle backer is practically a starter on many defenses playing 2 out of every 3 downs on average . Amos had a few games give or take .... was out of the league by this point in Boykins career and played far less snaps ( from memory anyways ) and a completely different pos ..

your grasping at straws on this one

Speaking of grasping, there wasn't much of that going on around the league for Brandon. For a position of such need you would have thought such a "proven commodity" would have drawn more interest.

[Shoes]

Looks like a good POS candidate for the Bugholes.


:chuckle:

[steelerdude15]

Long overdue. He should have never been signed to that deal to begin with.

[Dwinsgames]

Speaking of grasping, there wasn't much of that going on around the league for Brandon. For a position of such need you would have thought such a "proven commodity" would have drawn more interest.

didn't we cover this already ?

[steelreserve]

why do you insist upon defining a good draft pick as someone who only plays well for us? Some people take some time to develop and by the time they get to that cross roads, the home team cant always keep them. thats just business. were guys like mike vrabel and brett favre bad picks too?

Absolutely they were bad picks. Your draft picks are to help YOU and you don't get any brownie points for helping other teams. If you spend a draft pick and get no return for it, it is a BAD PICK, no ifs ands or buts. And I don't really care why it happened, or who else got a good deal because of it, the point is YOU used a draft pick and got nothing.

Sanders was not even a "bad" pick. We got something out of it, but that was only 3 years of OK football. So not a total loss, but far from a smash hit. That kind of talk is nonsense. Was Vrabel a great pick for the Steelers? Only if you're tripping on ketamine.

[Dwinsgames]

Absolutely they were bad picks. Your draft picks are to help YOU and you don't get any brownie points for helping other teams. If you spend a draft pick and get no return for it, it is a BAD PICK, no ifs ands or buts. And I don't really care why it happened, or who else got a good deal because of it, the point is YOU used a draft pick and got nothing.

Sanders was not even a "bad" pick. We got something out of it, but that was only 3 years of OK football. So not a total loss, but far from a smash hit. That kind of talk is nonsense. Was Vrabel a great pick for the Steelers? Only if you're tripping on ketamine.

in fairness Favre was still a good pick , they traded him and got healthy compensation .... Vrabel I agree with but I do not call them bad picks , I call them squandered picks , the player was good the timing or utilization was bad ...

[Butch]

Who did that? My main memory of Sanders when he was still with us were his drops.

https://cbsbaltimore.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/452440113_8.jpg?w=594

This Exactly. I was and still am glad Sanders left us. Who knows maybe having Peyton as his QB was better for him, but Ben put lots of balls in his hands only to have him drop them. I have no idea why he is able to catch so much in Denver and couldn't catch for us. I find it hard to believe that it has anything to do with how the QB prepares, I think it has much more to do with the player himself. Sanders had a mental block here for whatever reason, but again what is done is done as far as I am concerned good riddance.

[86WARD]

Vrabel was a good pick...he just had much much much better players in front of him at the time and there was no way he was cracking that line up...at that stage.

[steelreserve]

Vrabel was a good pick...he just had much much much better players in front of him at the time and there was no way he was cracking that line up...at that stage.

Hence, a bad pick. If we traded up to draft a center this year, and he sat on the bench for three years behind Pouncey and then left - well, that would be dumb, now wouldn't it? Drafting players who you don't need, and therefore don't play, is also a WASTE OF A PICK.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Hence, a bad pick. If we traded up to draft a center this year, and he sat on the bench for three years behind Pouncey and then left - well, that would be dumb, now wouldn't it? Drafting players who you don't need, and therefore don't play, is also a WASTE OF A PICK.

well now you're moving from "bad pick" to "wasting a pick" and theres a fine line. guys like mike vrabel and brett favre were horribly wasted picks by their respective teams. they were however, excellent picks

[Craic]

Hence, a bad pick. If we traded up to draft a center this year, and he sat on the bench for three years behind Pouncey and then left - well, that would be dumb, now wouldn't it? Drafting players who you don't need, and therefore don't play, is also a WASTE OF A PICK.

I think you're way too shortsighted on draft picks. Think of it like a game of cards, and you're going for a straight.

You have a seven, eight, and nine of hearts. Someone tosses down a 5 of hearts. You pick it up and toss an ace of diamonds because the ace is doing nothing in your hand. The next two draws are a ten and jack of hearts, so you toss the five. Was the five a bad choice? By your logic, it was because it didn't help you make the run. But, when you kept the card, it made all the sense in the world at time, and had things worked out differently, it would have fit your hand very well. That's why you look at a player's overall development, rather than just with the team. Because it tells you if the coaches were right in assessing talent (would this card have completed a 5-card run?). Neither the coaches nor the front office can be blamed for dropping the five of hearts when the ten of hearts is drawn in the next draft (BPA).

[steelreserve]

well now you're moving from "bad pick" to "wasting a pick" and theres a fine line. guys like mike vrabel and brett favre were horribly wasted picks by their respective teams. they were however, excellent picks

A wasted pick is a bad pick. The above were excellent PLAYERS, terrible draft picks.



I think you're way too shortsighted on draft picks. Think of it like a game of cards, and you're going for a straight.

You have a seven, eight, and nine of hearts. Someone tosses down a 5 of hearts. You pick it up and toss an ace of diamonds because the ace is doing nothing in your hand. The next two draws are a ten and jack of hearts, so you toss the five. Was the five a bad choice? By your logic, it was because it didn't help you make the run. But, when you kept the card, it made all the sense in the world at time, and had things worked out differently, it would have fit your hand very well. That's why you look at a player's overall development, rather than just with the team. Because it tells you if the coaches were right in assessing talent (would this card have completed a 5-card run?). Neither the coaches nor the front office can be blamed for dropping the five of hearts when the ten of hearts is drawn in the next draft (BPA).

Again, a choice that made all the sense in the world at the time but didn't help you was ultimately the wrong choice. Instead of the poker analogy, try this one: You buy a new car one day thinking it will be great. You barely ever use it and it sits in the garage taking up space. It turns out you needed a truck, and/or you already had a truck. Finally, after 3 or 4 years, you sell the car and you get 10 cents on the dollar for it. The next guy who owns it drives it every day, and it lasts him 20 years with no mechanical problems ever. Was that a good purchase for YOU?

[Count Steeler]

I have to side with steelreserve on this one.

Draft evaluation criteria:
1) quality of athlete
2) contribution to team

If the player never contributes to your team and has a successful career with another team, how is that a good draft pick? That is why BPA, on its own, is hogwash. If the BPA does not fill a need, then you better have a good trade lined up for the BPA and get something in return to help your team.

If the best WR in the draft were to fall to 25, should the Steelers take him? Unless you have plans to convert him to a TE or trade away some other players, it would be an unwise pick THIS year. Especially with the Safety Position and DL just begging for some help.

[Dwinsgames]

the above scenarios is exactly why you sometimes need to waiver from BPA ( best player available ) in your draft logic and draft best player available that fills some sort of a need on your roster .

at 25 if the BPA is a QB or RB or WR we sure as hell are not going to draft them so why would you do that in round 4 if the guy has little to no chance of ever seeing the field

[Mojouw]

A wasted pick is a bad pick. The above were excellent PLAYERS, terrible draft picks.




Again, a choice that made all the sense in the world at the time but didn't help you was ultimately the wrong choice. Instead of the poker analogy, try this one: You buy a new car one day thinking it will be great. You barely ever use it and it sits in the garage taking up space. It turns out you needed a truck, and/or you already had a truck. Finally, after 3 or 4 years, you sell the car and you get 10 cents on the dollar for it. The next guy who owns it drives it every day, and it lasts him 20 years with no mechanical problems ever. Was that a good purchase for YOU?

I see it as two separate questions are getting conflated here. The first is solely about the draft pick itself. How good was that player, in a vacuum, versus other potential players at that pick? This would be like arguing that Ben Roethlisberger is a great value for the 11th pick in the draft. Tom Brady is a ridiculously good late round pick. Antonio Brown is an amazing 6th round draft choice, etc. This level of categorization solely evaluates how well a team did identifying talent each time they got a selection in a given draft. For instance, Vrabel was a great job of identifying talent by the Steelers.

The second question is about fit. It has nothing to do with value, but all about roster construction, cap dollars, future cap considerations, etc. Vrabel was a great talent, but a poor fit on the Steelers roster.

Parsing it out that way, means almost everyone on this thread is right to some degree!

[Count Steeler]

I see it as two separate questions are getting conflated here. The first is solely about the draft pick itself. How good was that player, in a vacuum, versus other potential players at that pick? This would be like arguing that Ben Roethlisberger is a great value for the 11th pick in the draft. Tom Brady is a ridiculously good late round pick. Antonio Brown is an amazing 6th round draft choice, etc. This level of categorization solely evaluates how well a team did identifying talent each time they got a selection in a given draft. For instance, Vrabel was a great job of identifying talent by the Steelers.

The second question is about fit. It has nothing to do with value, but all about roster construction, cap dollars, future cap considerations, etc. Vrabel was a great talent, but a poor fit on the Steelers roster.

Parsing it out that way, means almost everyone on this thread is right to some degree!

I can appreciate the line you are trying to draw, but the draft is about roster reconstruction. The player chosen at any particular time, has to have value at that draft position AND have value as a contribution to the roster of the team. If I were GM, I would have 2 boards. One with best players available, the other with positions of greatest need. Then assign a weighted system to both boards and my picks would try to maximize BPA AND address a position of need.

If, say a WR is my #1 BPA at 25, but WR is #9 on my needs list, and the #2 BPA at 25 is a SS and I have SS as #1, I would have to take the SS. Would the WR be a bad pick? He would certainly be BPA, but he may only help my team if my top 3 WR get injured or leave in FA next season.

The draft is an inexact science, almost an art, because, let's face it, you have a stock of some of the best athletes in the world vying for ~220 draft picks. That is why even some UDFAs make it big. There are some great athletes that never get drafted. Then the discussion begins on player development and coaching. Must say, armchair GM is a lot better.

[Craic]

I can appreciate the line you are trying to draw, but the draft is about roster reconstruction. The player chosen at any particular time, has to have value at that draft position AND have value as a contribution to the roster of the team. If I were GM, I would have 2 boards. One with best players available, the other with positions of greatest need. Then assign a weighted system to both boards and my picks would try to maximize BPA AND address a position of need.

If, say a WR is my #1 BPA at 25, but WR is #9 on my needs list, and the #2 BPA at 25 is a SS and I have SS as #1, I would have to take the SS. Would the WR be a bad pick? He would certainly be BPA, but he may only help my team if my top 3 WR get injured or leave in FA next season.

The draft is an inexact science, almost an art, because, let's face it, you have a stock of some of the best athletes in the world vying for ~220 draft picks. That is why even some UDFAs make it big. There are some great athletes that never get drafted. Then the discussion begins on player development and coaching. Must say, armchair GM is a lot better.

But the problem is that it might work out in a different way, but still be classified as a bad pick when it was anything but. Go back in the past a little ways. Let's say Priest Holmes has a lot better tape and people recognize the talent he might have, rather than him going undrafted. So, we pick him in the second round. Then, twenty minutes later, we find out that Jerome Bettis is available for trade, so we pull the trigger and trade for him. Coming out of camp the second year, we let Priest go because Bettis is a monster.

According to roster reconstruction, drafting Holmes was a bad pick. But, that's outside of any context. When you add in the context, it would have been a good pick, but a better option came along thereafter, and we upgraded. It's neither fair nor constructive to blame a coach for not seeing the later opportunity before making the prior choice. (Leave out all the league scuttlebutt or "feelers" a team puts out, since I'm only using the scenario as an illustration of later options causing wrong optics on earlier choices).

That's why I can't go along with the idea of roster reconstruction for analyzing who was a good pick in hindsight. Doing assumes inhuman foresight of the coaches and front office when assigning them blame for bad drafting (which you haven't done so far, but Steelreserve has in another thread). For that reason, I think Mojouw is exactly right. There's too assessments. The first one is assessing whether coaches know how to recognize and draft talent. The second assessment is how well that talent contributed to the team. They are two very different ideas, although both come out of the same event.

[zulater]

didn't we cover this already ?

Yeah we did, and so did the league. And 31 teams passed and one gave veteran minimum. Yet the legend of the great Brandon Boykin lives on in the minds of Steeler fans throughout the land for some mysterious reason? . :lol:

[zulater]

If you're the guy doing the picking you probably score Emanuel Sanders in the win column. By the way the guy wasn't worthless while he was here. Yeah he had some drops, but he also had many catches that contributed to wins. His last two seasons combined as a Steeler he caught 110 passes. I know it was a different game back in the day, but Lynn Swann's best two consecutive season combined total was 111. And Sanders only started half of those games. So you give me 55 catches from our 3 receiver this season coming up and I'm pretty happy.

[Dwinsgames]

Yeah we did, and so did the league. And 31 teams passed and one gave veteran minimum. Yet the legend of the great Brandon Boykin lives on in the minds of Steeler fans throughout the land for some mysterious reason? . :lol:


novel idea as to why ... HE PLAYED WELL

:hand:

[zulater]

novel idea as to why ... HE PLAYED WELL

:hand:

Not nearly as well as you believe. :coffee:

[Butch]

If you're the guy doing the picking you probably score Emanuel Sanders in the win column. By the way the guy wasn't worthless while he was here. Yeah he had some drops, but he also had many catches that contributed to wins. His last two seasons combined as a Steeler he caught 110 passes. I know it was a different game back in the day, but Lynn Swann's best two consecutive season combined total was 111. And Sanders only started half of those games. So you give me 55 catches from our 3 receiver this season coming up and I'm pretty happy.

I can care less with how many they catch, to me it's all about when they catch them. Is it when the pressure is on? Did it help us win the game? You can have all the catches in the world, but if you can't catch when it matters most what's the point? Sorry but for me stats are for losers. Sanders did not make key catches in big games. He was not clutch at least when he was here and that's what matters the most to me. Hines may not have had stats but he made a ton of critical catches to extend drives, to me that is more valuable then some WR who can stretch the field but doesn't want to fight for the ball...yes I am looking at Mike Wallace.

[zulater]

I can care less with how many they catch, to me it's all about when they catch them. Is it when the pressure is on? Did it help us win the game? You can have all the catches in the world, but if you can't catch when it matters most what's the point? Sorry but for me stats are for losers. Sanders did not make key catches in big games. He was not clutch at least when he was here and that's what matters the most to me. Hines may not have had stats but he made a ton of critical catches to extend drives, to me that is more valuable then some WR who can stretch the field but doesn't want to fight for the ball...yes I am looking at Mike Wallace.

Did we get a comp pick for Sanders?

Regardless my point is he wasn't a wasted or awful pick. Look around the league and check out how many first round picks flop each and every year. A lot of receivers included.


Granted Sanders didn't make the most of his time in Pittsburgh. But when you consider the receivers he had to play behind (AB, Ward, and Wallace) and the nagging injuries that plagued him while here and I think he was a fairly productive player all in all. You dwell on his drops, well he also caught some important passes too. Ben really wanted to keep him. I think there was a reason for that.

[Butch]

Did we get a comp pick for Sanders?

Regardless my point is he wasn't a wasted or awful pick. Look around the league and check out how many first round picks flop each and every year. A lot of receivers included.


Granted Sanders didn't make the most of his time in Pittsburgh. But when you consider the receivers he had to play behind (AB, Ward, and Wallace) and the nagging injuries that plagued him while here and I think he was a fairly productive player all in all. You dwell on his drops, well he also caught some important passes too. Ben really wanted to keep him. I think there was a reason for that.

Sanders did not play behind those guys he played in front of them. The Big Money crew and Ward was on the way out, but for whatever reason Big Money couldn't push him out right away. Was Sanders an awful pick - no but he also wasn't the player he is for Denver either for whatever reason (preparation with Ben or otherwise) and that was the player I wanted. Do we get a comp pick? ok so it wasn't a total loss but who cares about this? It's a crap shoot that the guy you get isn't a head case, and that he can make an impact right away otherwise you have to develop him to do what it is you need him to be and hope it all works out. As for Ben lobbying for us to keep him he did the same for Plex and that one didn't work out either.

I'll give you this he's not as bad as Limas Sweed or Mendenhalf but he wasn't the player I knew he could be, and yes I do focus on his drops they are part of his over all work. Tell me how many here remember Hines for his crucial drops.

[fansince'76]

As for Ben lobbying for us to keep him he did the same for Plex and that one didn't work out either.

Good point. Ben also wanted Wallace to stay and also routinely and effusively praised his OL when they absolutely stunk. Not to mention his friendship with Arians.

In other words, I have a feeling that Ben is loyal to a fault.

As for Sanders, I'm glad he "found his groove" with the Broncos. He was just never any great shakes for us - not a bad player, just meh.

[Count Steeler]

But the problem is that it might work out in a different way, but still be classified as a bad pick when it was anything but. Go back in the past a little ways. Let's say Priest Holmes has a lot better tape and people recognize the talent he might have, rather than him going undrafted. So, we pick him in the second round. Then, twenty minutes later, we find out that Jerome Bettis is available for trade, so we pull the trigger and trade for him. Coming out of camp the second year, we let Priest go because Bettis is a monster.

According to roster reconstruction, drafting Holmes was a bad pick. But, that's outside of any context. When you add in the context, it would have been a good pick, but a better option came along thereafter, and we upgraded. It's neither fair nor constructive to blame a coach for not seeing the later opportunity before making the prior choice. (Leave out all the league scuttlebutt or "feelers" a team puts out, since I'm only using the scenario as an illustration of later options causing wrong optics on earlier choices).

That's why I can't go along with the idea of roster reconstruction for analyzing who was a good pick in hindsight. Doing assumes inhuman foresight of the coaches and front office when assigning them blame for bad drafting (which you haven't done so far, but Steelreserve has in another thread). For that reason, I think Mojouw is exactly right. There's too assessments. The first one is assessing whether coaches know how to recognize and draft talent. The second assessment is how well that talent contributed to the team. They are two very different ideas, although both come out of the same event.

But that 20 minutes later has to take into account that you just used a 2nd round pick on a RB. So whatever deal you would have been willing to make for Bettis, up to 20 minutes ago, has to change, now that you have a 2nd round RB in your stable. Your GM may in fact pass on Bettis now that you have a 2nd rounder RB. Now it is a value assessment of how strongly you feel about your pick and how strongly you feel about Bettis being your answer. A little harder to look at the future careers of 2 athletes, then it is now, looking back. Not so sure that in that scenario you end up trading for Bettis.

[teegre]

I still don't see how Mike Wallace was a bad pick.

Using the car analogy: He is the sports car that you drive for four years, picking up women & such. In year five, you start to get the feeling that it might need a new transmission; so you sell it. After selling it, the new owner throws a lot of money into the car, but it still breaks down & becomes complete crap.

[fansince'76]

I still don't see how Mike Wallace was a bad pick.

He wasn't a bad pick. He just wasn't worth anywhere near the amount of his second contract that he eventually got from Miami.

My point about Wallace is that even though he had already started to coast right around the middle of the 2011 season, Ben still went to bat for him with the FO and lobbied to keep him around. Needless to say now, but I'm glad they paid Brown instead.

[Butch]

I still don't see how Mike Wallace was a bad pick.

Using the car analogy: He is the sports car that you drive for four years, picking up women & such. In year five, you start to get the feeling that it might need a new transmission; so you sell it. After selling it, the new owner throws a lot of money into the car, but it still breaks down & becomes complete crap.

Well all is good as long as you pick up the women, but when all it becomes is a fast car that breaks down, and you are no longer able to pick up women...well then you have a problem. Good thing is there was a sucker there to throw money at it, but it never picked up women for that guy either so he sells it off as well. IMHO

[Born2Steel]

I don't know about Wallace. The guy had the talent, just didn't have the drive to be his best. Once he got paid and a little bit of a name, he had made it in his mind. That's not coaching, or FO, or teammates. That's on the man. There is no way to predict that.

[fansince'76]

I don't know about Wallace. The guy had the talent, just didn't have the drive to be his best. Once he got paid and a little bit of a name, he had made it in his mind. That's not coaching, or FO, or teammates. That's on the man. There is no way to predict that.

Hell, Wallace hadn't even gotten paid yet when he started to half-ass it (mid-2011). No way was he worth the $27 million guaranteed that the Dolphins gave him.

[Born2Steel]

Hell, Wallace hadn't even gotten paid yet when he started to half-ass it (mid-2011). No way was he worth the $27 million guaranteed that the Dolphins gave him.

Agreed, which is why the coaches didn't push to keep him. The point was on was he a bad draft pick, I thought.

[Psycho Ward 86]

if you think wallace was a BAD 3rd round pick you have some unrealistic standards and are probably the type of person to throw a fit when we dont nail every one of our picks

[Dwinsgames]

Not nearly as well as you believe. :coffee:


never seen anything more subjective than that in my life !

so tell me exactly how well I thought he played , since you know exactly what I am thinking at all times .

lets not be putting words into my mouth ( like you have before on the topic ) , use direct quotes only on things I have actually said about him

( this should be interesting )

[Mojouw]

I'm sorry, but any evaluation criteria where Sanders, Wallace, Sweed, and Mendenhall were "bad" draft picks is one based almost totally in hindsight. When those picks were made they were almost universally regarded as excellent picks.

From what the Steelers then got out of the players, Wallace and Sanders still really damn good picks. Mendenhall mediocre, and Sweed a total bust.

In the current "Star" or "Elite" player driven league (go ahead name a team that wins without them) and the associated cap implications of having to pay a few guys 25-40% of the overall cap; most players are with a team during the tenure of their cheap rookie deals. Sanders did not go bye-bye because the Steelers thought he sucked, they didn't fight to keep him because they felt they finally had a cheaper cloned version of him in Wheaton. Same with Wallace. They had cheaper replacements in the pipeline. That simply means the team has made a series of really darn good draft picks at the WR position and entered negotiations from the strongest possible position for the team. Wallace and Sanders just had zero leverage.

[Butch]

I'm sorry, but any evaluation criteria where Sanders, Wallace, Sweed, and Mendenhall were "bad" draft picks is one based almost totally in hindsight. When those picks were made they were almost universally regarded as excellent picks.

From what the Steelers then got out of the players, Wallace and Sanders still really damn good picks. Mendenhall mediocre, and Sweed a total bust.

In the current "Star" or "Elite" player driven league (go ahead name a team that wins without them) and the associated cap implications of having to pay a few guys 25-40% of the overall cap; most players are with a team during the tenure of their cheap rookie deals. Sanders did not go bye-bye because the Steelers thought he sucked, they didn't fight to keep him because they felt they finally had a cheaper cloned version of him in Wheaton. Same with Wallace. They had cheaper replacements in the pipeline. That simply means the team has made a series of really darn good draft picks at the WR position and entered negotiations from the strongest possible position for the team. Wallace and Sanders just had zero leverage.

Of course it is, like I say the draft is mostly a crap shoot sometimes you clear the fences and other times you strike out. Yes the reason Sanders went away is because the Steelers didn't want to compete for his services. I applaud that decision, as he was not what I expected. Yes he had some good times as did Wallace, but overall not worth what they were being offered elsewhere.

[teegre]

He wasn't a bad pick. He just wasn't worth anywhere near the amount of his second contract that he eventually got from Miami.

My point about Wallace is that even though he had already started to coast right around the middle of the 2011 season, Ben still went to bat for him with the FO and lobbied to keep him around. Needless to say now, but I'm glad they paid Brown instead.

Absolutely. You are 100% correct.

Wallace was a Ferrari whose engine started to sputter; the Steelers were not about toay for a transmission, when they had an Aston Martin (AB) in the garage.

NOTE: My previous post wasn't directed at you (or anyone really). It was just me venting from years & years of people calling Wallace a bad pick. Wallace was a Ferrari that went elsewhere to die... and, considering that most teams drive Toyotas, driving a Ferrari for four years was indeed a good thing.

[Count Steeler]

Absolutely. You are 100% correct.

Wallace was a Ferrari whose engine started to sputter; the Steelers were not about toay for a transmission, when they had an Aston Martin (AB) in the garage.

NOTE: My previous post wasn't directed at you (or anyone really). It was just me venting from years & years of people calling Wallace a bad pick. Wallace was a Ferrari that went elsewhere to die... and, considering that most teams drive Toyotas, driving a Ferrari for four years was indeed a good thing.

I think he filled up on diesel instead of Super. Never got his engine cleared after that. If he had the work ethic and a right mind set, he would be elite.

[steelreserve]

Wallace: Great draft pick, terrible disappointment on the free agent market.

Sanders: OK draft pick, home run on the free agent market.

Brown: Great draft pick, great deal on the free agent market (extension, whatever you call it).

Sweed: Terrible draft pick.


The Steelers receivers pretty well summarize the main ways draft picks can turn out. Brown and Sweed are pretty clear-cut and you won't find many people arguing with that. Wallace and Sanders are the ones everyone gets hung up on, because for some reason people get confused between contributions to the team that drafted you, and success later in your career.

I would add that based on what we saw up to that point, letting Sanders walk was the right move. A guy who gets a hefty contract based mostly on potential, and then not only lives up to it but blows the doors off it, is the exception rather than the rule. Wallace looked like the far better player, and we tried to make him the big offer, but boy, am I glad that didn't work out.

[zulater]

never seen anything more subjective than that in my life !

so tell me exactly how well I thought he played , since you know exactly what I am thinking at all times .

lets not be putting words into my mouth ( like you have before on the topic ) , use direct quotes only on things I have actually said about him

( this should be interesting )

You appear to think he's more than a serviceable nickel back.

- - - Updated - - -

Now on topic.

I wish we picked db's as well as we pick wr's.

[Count Steeler]

I wish we picked db's as well as we pick wr's.

Now that would be something.

[SteelMember]

...and the poor get poorer. Kaboly's mock may not be that far fetched. We are running low on bodies, let alone players. Ugh.

[Dwinsgames]

You appear to think he's more than a serviceable nickel back.

- - - Updated - - -

Now on topic.

I wish we picked db's as well as we pick wr's.

he certainly was in comparison to what we where trotting out there instead of him ( Blake )

forget PFF grades most yards allowed by a CB in League history says all I need to know and I witnessed it all .

but you where the one who diverted this to a Boykin discussion .

[zulater]

he certainly was in comparison to what we where trotting out there instead of him ( Blake )

forget PFF grades most yards allowed by a CB in League history says all I need to know and I witnessed it all .

but you where the one who diverted this to a Boykin discussion .

I drew a parallel between he and Cortez. You're the only one that seems to be bothered by it.

[Dwinsgames]

I drew a parallel between he and Cortez. You're the only one that seems to be bothered by it.


because it was a shit parallel .

the situations are nothing alike other than neither will play in Pittsburgh in 2016

[zulater]

because it was a shit parallel .

the situations are nothing alike other than neither will play in Pittsburgh in 2016

So says you, but others have pm'd me and think it is valid. Guess your opinion is the only one that matters though.

I just reread post 21 in this thread, the one that set secondaryconcerns off. I stand by everything I said then. The parallel that was drawn was both relevant to topic and insightful, even if one disagrees with the conclusions drawn.


Back to Cortez. Does anyone know if he could pass a physical yet? Two straight seasons finished on the IR I'm guessing his agent needs to get that information out there if he wants to get a sniff around the league anytime soon.

[Dwinsgames]

So says you, but others have pm'd me and think it is valid. Guess your opinion is the only one that matters though.

would love to see those PM's ....

it clearly was not your best work

[zulater]

would love to see those PM's ....

it clearly was not your best work

Those are private, if they feel like sharing their opinions with the board I'll leave it to them. But if you're suggesting I'm lying, well nothing I can do about that, nor do I care to do. Just rest assured there's a lot more posters than me that think Boykin has been oversold.

[Dwinsgames]

I just reread post 21 in this thread, the one that set secondaryconcerns off. I stand by everything I said then. The parallel that was drawn was both relevant to topic and insightful, even if one disagrees with the conclusions drawn.
.


OMG why don't you make it up as you go along some more .

NOBODY went off

[Dwinsgames]

Just rest assured there's a lot more posters than me that think Boykin has been oversold.


who is over selling him ?

I have stated he is far superior to Blake , many many times over , I NEVER said 2nd coming of Rod Woodson ( that was you putting words into peoples mouths )

If being better than Blake is over selling then go crawl back under a rock because the FACT is he is better than Blake ... if you do not like that FACT I do not know what to tell you other than avoid the topic because it surely will come up over and over and over again ...

** point of reference ** if saying Better than Blake makes you think Rod Woodson you are giving Blake to much credit , not most giving Boykin to much credit

[zulater]

who is over selling him ?

I have stated he is far superior to Blake , many many times over , I NEVER said 2nd coming of Rod Woodson ( that was you putting words into peoples mouths )

If being better than Blake is over selling then go crawl back under a rock because the FACT is he is better than Blake ... if you do not like that FACT I do not know what to tell you other than avoid the topic because it surely will come up over and over and over again ...

** point of reference ** if saying Better than Blake makes you think Rod Woodson you are giving Blake to much credit , not most giving Boykin to much credit

Actually he was better than Blake last year. But I wouldn't bet that will be the case going forward. I believe Tomlin saw a bigger upside with Blake and also saw that the more Boykin played the worse he would be exposed. Which actually came to crop in our divisional playoff loss to Denver.

Anyway going full circle here, and getting back to Cortez, isn't it ironic that 3 years ago more of us than not held Allen in high regard, and Profootballfocus went as far as to label him a "secret superstar"?

[Born2Steel]

Bottom line on Boykin is he was only here because Golson was injured. A 1 year Band-Aid.