Pittsburgh Steelers all-time NFL Draft classes: No. 5, 2010

[polamalubeast]

http://www.pennlive.com/steelers/index.ssf/2016/03/steelers_all-time_draft_2010.html

[Steeldude]

The problem with Pouncey is he can't stay healthy. I don't expect him to play more than 8 games next season.

[zulater]

The problem with Pouncey is he can't stay healthy. I don't expect him to play more than 8 games next season.

Of course you wouldn't. And I'm sure you wont expect the Steelers to win more than 6 games next season at the point of their first loss of the year.


Here's the truth on Pouncey. In 6 seasons he's had two that were seriously curtailed by injury, last season of course when he missed the entire season, and 13 when he was injured in the season opener never to return that year. But in his other 4 years he's played 16 games twice, 15 games once, and 14 the other year. Now of course he missed the Super Bowl after getting injured in the AFC title game as a rookie. So yeah he does have an injury history. But the fact is in 2/3 of his NFL seasons he's played the vast majority of the games. He just a season removed from playing virtually every snap in 14. So if being fatalistic about everything makes you feel good, go for it. But as for me I'm looking forward to Pouncey's return.

[steelreserve]

I think the 2010 draft class is way, way, WAY overhyped. Excellent player (expected), excellent player (unexpected), whiff, whiff, whiff, whiff, whiff, whiff, whiff. Plus one player who was an OK role player and then excelled with another team, which does precisely dick for us. I guess we can pat ourselves on the back for helping Denver win a Super Bowl, for all the good that does us.

So basically, Antonio Brown is the entire basis for calling it a "great" draft class. ok.

[Steeldude]

Of course you wouldn't. And I'm sure you wont expect the Steelers to win more than 6 games next season at the point of their first loss of the year.


Here's the truth on Pouncey. In 6 seasons he's had two that were seriously curtailed by injury, last season of course when he missed the entire season, and 13 when he was injured in the season opener never to return that year. But in his other 4 years he's played 16 games twice, 15 games once, and 14 the other year. Now of course he missed the Super Bowl after getting injured in the AFC title game as a rookie. So yeah he does have an injury history. But the fact is in 2/3 of his NFL seasons he's played the vast majority of the games. He just a season removed from playing virtually every snap in 14. So if being fatalistic about everything makes you feel good, go for it. But as for me I'm looking forward to Pouncey's return.

You certainly do whine a lot. You should do your blood pressure a favor and put me on ignore. You are becoming quite obsessed with me : )

You think missing 34+ games is being healthy while I do not share that view.

[steelreserve]

More to the point, since this is bound to come up when I said Brown is the entire reason: The difference that Pouncey makes, compared with an average center, is a lot less than the difference that the best (insert position other than OL) makes compared to an average player at the position. Yes, it's good that we have him, but a #1 pick and subsequent $10M contract is a high price to pay for a relatively small difference.

So - yeah, great player; but the value is not the knock-it-out-of-the-park value like Brown.

[slippy]

put a healthy Pouncy in for Legursky in the sb loss to the packers and that is a win. ben had pressure up the middle all day and was never comfortable.

[zulater]

You certainly do whine a lot. You should do your blood pressure a favor and put me on ignore. You are becoming quite obsessed with me : )

You think missing 34+ games is being healthy while I do not share that view.


Obsessed with you? :lol: Really? I address one of your overly negative posts about once every month and a half. And typically people who complain and moan obsessively about how bad everything is are considered life's whiners. Which fits you to a tee I mean seriously why do you even follow the Steelers?? Anything short of 19-0 while never committing a turnover on offense and never allowing a first down on defense and you're shame faced about the team. There's glass half full people, then there's glass half empty people. The there's you who obliterates the glass and claim it never existed in the first place. :pointlaugh:

And no I wont put you on ignore. Because on those days when I get a little disgruntled about how one of my teams are performing I can reference any one of your posts to remind me to lighten up, that's it's only a game, and to enjoy what I have as opposed to thinking I'm entitled by birthright to everything I want as soon as I want it.

[zulater]

More to the point, since this is bound to come up when I said Brown is the entire reason: The difference that Pouncey makes, compared with an average center, is a lot less than the difference that the best (insert position other than OL) makes compared to an average player at the position. Yes, it's good that we have him, but a #1 pick and subsequent $10M contract is a high price to pay for a relatively small difference.

So - yeah, great player; but the value is not the knock-it-out-of-the-park value like Brown.

I think you underestimate the value of a top notch center, which is what Pouncey is and has been for his four healthy seasons. We can agree to disagree, but if his relative worth wasn't all that (when playing of course) I really don't think he gets the money. I know it's popular to think the Steelers are clueless, but they really aren't. Yeah you got your occasional Woodley contract that blows up in their face, but more often than not they pay the guys that deserve it when they deserve it.

[steelreserve]

I think you underestimate the value of a top notch center, which is what Pouncey is and has been for his four healthy seasons. We can agree to disagree, but if his relative worth wasn't all that (when playing of course) I really don't think he gets the money. I know it's popular to think the Steelers are clueless, but they really aren't. Yeah you got your occasional Woodley contract that blows up in their face, but more often than not they pay the guys that deserve it when they deserve it.

I think that's the core of it (not that I flat-out underestimate it, but that we disagree how valuable one is). To me, one individual lineman is not worth much even if he's a star; the main thing is not to have ANY who suck. The line is as good as its lowest common denominator, not as good as the average of all five. I truly believe that a line of five Ramon Fosters would be superior to four Pounceys and one Sean Mahan. Of course, not everyone sees it that way and they're not necessarily wrong either. But looking at the way the line performed this past season with Wallace as the center - I tend to think it has to do more with its worst players than its best.

But in either case, I think the value "above replacement" of a star offensive lineman is still going to be less than that of a star safety, WR, DE and so on, for pretty obvious reasons. Would we have set all kinds of offensive records without Brown? Not a chance. Would we do it without Pouncey? Actually, we just did.

[polamalubeast]

I think that's the core of it (not that I flat-out underestimate it, but that we disagree how valuable one is). To me, one individual lineman is not worth much even if he's a star; the main thing is not to have ANY who suck. The line is as good as its lowest common denominator, not as good as the average of all five. I truly believe that a line of five Ramon Fosters would be superior to four Pounceys and one Sean Mahan. Of course, not everyone sees it that way and they're not necessarily wrong either. But looking at the way the line performed this past season with Wallace as the center - I tend to think it has to do more with its worst players than its best.

But in either case, I think the value "above replacement" of a star offensive lineman is still going to be less than that of a star safety, WR, DE and so on, for pretty obvious reasons. Would we have set all kinds of offensive records without Brown? Not a chance. Would we do it without Pouncey? Actually, we just did.

Do you remember when the o-line was very bad?...Very important to have a good offensive line to have a great offense, especially against elite defenses like the broncos.

I agree that the WR position is more important than the o-line, but do not underestimating the importance of having a good o-line, since for several years it was brutal for the Steelers

[Mojouw]

Weird. It is almost like the Steelers pay around the average for a top center. Almost like by locking Pouncey up early, they even saved a bit over the life of the contract. Really odd.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/center/

It is the same debate constantly around here. No one wants to pay anybody anything. Watch what happens when AB gets paid. It will be over $14 million annually and with 60+% guaranteed and everyone will lose their minds.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/wide-receiver/

[fansince'76]

It is the same debate constantly around here. No one wants to pay anybody anything. Watch what happens when AB gets paid. It will be over $14 million annually and with 60+% guaranteed and everyone will lose their minds.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/wide-receiver/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQNLozNA0Eg

:chuckle:

[steelreserve]

Do you remember when the o-line was very bad?...Very important to have a good offensive line to have a great offense, especially against elite defenses like the broncos.

I agree that the WR position is more important than the o-line, but do not underestimating the importance of having a good o-line, since for several years it was brutal for the Steelers


I didn't say we shouldn't have a good offensive line, or that it's not important. I just think a good offensive line means something different - that all five are at least average players, and not necessarily that any of those five players is a star. And I also believe that you can have individual star players and still have a bad line. We did exactly that for YEARS.




Weird. It is almost like the Steelers pay around the average for a top center. Almost like by locking Pouncey up early, they even saved a bit over the life of the contract. Really odd.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/center/

It is the same debate constantly around here. No one wants to pay anybody anything. Watch what happens when AB gets paid. It will be over $14 million annually and with 60+% guaranteed and everyone will lose their minds.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/wide-receiver/


Never said we shouldn't pay anyone, or implied that we could somehow get Pouncey for half of market value. I said that using a #1 draft pick on a center and then paying him close to $10M a year is not the same kind of grand-slam bargain as using a #6 pick on the best receiver in the league and then signing him for less money.

Pouncey is a great player and an average value. Brown is an incredible player and an excellent value. That's all I said.

Change Brown to a #1 draft pick and $14M a year, and he'd still be a better value than Pouncey, because they'd both have the typical draft status and contract for a player of that caliber, but a WR of Brown's skill level makes more difference than one lineman no matter how you cut it - and there is not really any reasonable way to argue otherwise.

[Mojouw]

Fair enough. Just wanted to point out that AB is ludicrously underpaid.

Plus anytime you take the best WR in the game in the 6th round, the rest of the draft could be Ziggy Hood and it would still be a great class.

Not sure what the value argument is getting at? If pouncey is fairly paid, what is the issue? Or does the conversation circle around to the original decision to draft a center in the first round?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[teegre]

steelers reserve,
You & I have been over this topic too many times to count. That said, I just had a new thought.

You acknowledge the importance of the NT... yet, you are currently disregarding the importance of the guy lined up across from him. Explain.

[zulater]

steelers reserve,
You & I have been over this topic too many times to count. That said, I just had a new thought.

You acknowledge the importance of the NT... yet, you are currently disregarding the importance of the guy lined up across from him. Explain.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73tGe3JE5IU

[steelreserve]

steelers reserve,
You & I have been over this topic too many times to count. That said, I just had a new thought.

You acknowledge the importance of the NT... yet, you are currently disregarding the importance of the guy lined up across from him. Explain.


That's simple: One good defensive lineman is capable of changing the game in your favor much more than one good offensive lineman is. Defensive line (and many other positions) has a lot of opportunity for rewarding a great individual effort with a high payoff. Offensive line is more like a pass/fail evaluation of the entire group. Sure, you can still be above the pass/fail mark as an individual, but the payoff for that caps out a lot sooner.

Yes, that's obviously simplifying it a lot, and of course we've all seen examples of a pass rusher being neutralized for most of the game, or great blocks that opened up a hole, etc., etc., so we can probably skip the standard part where the other person asks me if I've ever really watched the line closely during a football game and I ask them if they have. Offensive line has a different goal than other positions and IN GENERAL is the least individually oriented. No, that's not saying individual players don't matter, as someone is bound to claim I'm saying. Having a bad offensive lineman has more impact on your offense than probably any other position except QB; having a STAR offensive lineman as opposed to an average one gets you less than at any other position.

Think of the nose tackle as a very fat ISIS suicide bomber. His job is to fuck shit up. Guarding one entrance to the preschool you have Special Agent Pouncey and Special Agent DeCastro, who graduated top of their class at the academy. Guarding the other entrance you have Officer O'Mahan, whose mind is on his $50,000 gambling debt and his cheating wife, and Officer Stapleton, who shows up high on cocaine that he swiped from the evidence locker. Pouncey and DeCastro do a great job but still BOOM! 42 dead. Individual effort didn't count for shit. Next time, they replace O'Mahan with Sergeant Wallace, who isn't the brightest guy in the world but at least remembers to check IDs. It ends with a mere knife fight at the entrance and the only kid who dies is some idiot who chokes on a burrito. Much better. :thumbsup:

I mean, what really drives that home for me is last season. We were missing an All-Pro center and had about as average a center as you could get. How did the offensive line do? The best it's done in years. We are very, very fortunate that we don't have ANY real problem spot on the line, but I would credit Gilbert, Foster and Beachum/AV with that more than the fact that we have two star players at center and guard.

[Mojouw]

That's simple: One good defensive lineman is capable of changing the game in your favor much more than one good offensive lineman is. Defensive line (and many other positions) has a lot of opportunity for rewarding a great individual effort with a high payoff. Offensive line is more like a pass/fail evaluation of the entire group. Sure, you can still be above the pass/fail mark as an individual, but the payoff for that caps out a lot sooner.

Yes, that's obviously simplifying it a lot, and of course we've all seen examples of a pass rusher being neutralized for most of the game, or great blocks that opened up a hole, etc., etc., so we can probably skip the standard part where the other person asks me if I've ever really watched the line closely during a football game and I ask them if they have. Offensive line has a different goal than other positions and IN GENERAL is the least individually oriented. No, that's not saying individual players don't matter, as someone is bound to claim I'm saying. Having a bad offensive lineman has more impact on your offense than probably any other position except QB; having a STAR offensive lineman as opposed to an average one gets you less than at any other position.

Think of the nose tackle as a very fat ISIS suicide bomber. His job is to fuck shit up. Guarding one entrance to the preschool you have Special Agent Pouncey and Special Agent DeCastro, who graduated top of their class at the academy. Guarding the other entrance you have Officer O'Mahan, whose mind is on his $50,000 gambling debt and his cheating wife, and Officer Stapleton, who shows up high on cocaine that he swiped from the evidence locker. Pouncey and DeCastro do a great job but still BOOM! 42 dead. Individual effort didn't count for shit. Next time, they replace O'Mahan with Sergeant Wallace, who isn't the brightest guy in the world but at least remembers to check IDs. It ends with a mere knife fight at the entrance and the only kid who dies is some idiot who chokes on a burrito. Much better. :thumbsup:

I mean, what really drives that home for me is last season. We were missing an All-Pro center and had about as average a center as you could get. How did the offensive line do? The best it's done in years. We are very, very fortunate that we don't have ANY real problem spot on the line, but I would credit Gilbert, Foster and Beachum/AV with that more than the fact that we have two star players at center and guard.

I can not go as far as to say you are wrong, but I can argue that you are either unintentionally or intentionally ignoring a few things in factoring your valuation of players/positions.

1. Specific to Pouncey, you have to put his value to the Steelers in the context that they play in a division dominated by 3-4 teams (or at least did when he was drafted - who knows what the Bungles and Browns are doing now). In theory that means 6 games per season against these dominant NTs that we have all been talking about across multiple threads.

2. Was Wallace's performance adequate because you simply don't need "star" players across a 5 man line - just 5 average guys? Or is "Sergeant Wallace" good enough because he is flanked on one side by Lieutenant Foster, a savy veteran of the force who has seen everything and then some and by Special Agent DeCastro a top graduate and former Recon Marine on the the other side? What about that when Special Agent Pouncey returns from his injury, the police force can totally change its deployments and the type of operations it runs because it no longer has to "carry" and "cover" for Sergeant Wallace?

3. Another way to look at it is that the Steelers are never or at least very rarely going to be in a position to draft a top talent at tackle. When is the next time they are going to have a top 5 draft pick? Knowing this, they have built their line from the inside out. They are often in the position to be able to grab dominant Centers and Guards. So build a highly talented interior wall from guard to guard and then if you tackle play is not great, you can scheme around it. Now, this doesn't look like such a priority because Gilbert developed into a really good RT and they pulled TWO adequate to really good LT prospects out of thin air in Beachum and AV. But, there was no way to know that was going to happen.

4. There is "value" across the NFL and then their is "value" to a specific team. What do I mean? Look at the draft. Let's take these dominant impactful DT's that we have all been debating. If they are a 4-3 tackle, then you need to pick one in the first 10 picks in the draft - there is there value across the league - right behind QBs and LTs. If they are a 3-4 NT, then we are talking the middle 15 picks of a draft or so - so a bit less valuable. So, if you are the Steelers and annually pick in the last 15 picks of the draft or so, you are rarely going to get a shot at a Dominant DT. But, as I mentioned earlier if you play in a division with (at the time) several teams who DID draft a dominant DT - then you better draft the appropriate counter-measure.

I could go on, but this is already too long of a post.

[steelreserve]

I can not go as far as to say you are wrong, but I can argue that you are either unintentionally or intentionally ignoring a few things in factoring your valuation of players/positions.


I don't think there is a way to settle it, it's just a different way of valuing the position. Your points are all good ones.

I don't even think it's necessarily "wrong" to have a couple of star players on the OL, or that it doesn't help at all, or that you can't pay a high salary to one or two. It just doesn't give you the same payoff as an AB or Troy Polamalu. Basically why I consider Pouncey a "good" draft pick rather than a "great" one, and an average value financially.

It's worth mentioning that I still think EXTRAVAGANT spending on the OL does more harm than good. Go back and look at teams that have taken left tackles in the top 5 or so picks over the past 20 years. Most of them have sucked for years afterward or at best topped out at the level of the current Vikings or Chiefs. The one notable exception being Seattle after Russell Okung - and I doubt they're any different if they don't also find an entire Pro Bowl secondary in rounds 5 and 6, which has basically never happened before in the history of the game. Most of the time, if you pass up the opportunity to get a franchise QB or a Polamalu-type of impact player, it's going to cost you.

[Mojouw]

I don't think there is a way to settle it, it's just a different way of valuing the position. Your points are all good ones.

I don't even think it's necessarily "wrong" to have a couple of star players on the OL, or that it doesn't help at all, or that you can't pay a high salary to one or two. It just doesn't give you the same payoff as an AB or Troy Polamalu. Basically why I consider Pouncey a "good" draft pick rather than a "great" one, and an average value financially.

It's worth mentioning that I still think EXTRAVAGANT spending on the OL does more harm than good. Go back and look at teams that have taken left tackles in the top 5 or so picks over the past 20 years. Most of them have sucked for years afterward or at best topped out at the level of the current Vikings or Chiefs. The one notable exception being Seattle after Russell Okung - and I doubt they're any different if they don't also find an entire Pro Bowl secondary in rounds 5 and 6, which has basically never happened before in the history of the game. Most of the time, if you pass up the opportunity to get a franchise QB or a Polamalu-type of impact player, it's going to cost you.

Certainly. A franchise QB, or a HOF type player who can remake the rules of their position can never be passed over for any offensive lineman. I guess the bottom line, for me, is there is no one way to construct a roster. And the "value" of an individual player can change as the context of the team changes. I would argue that Pouncey was more valuable earlier in his career when it has him and some traffic cones manning the offensive line. Now that he has surrounding talent, he isn't as necessary/valueable.