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Mojouw
03-06-2016, 03:32 PM
The following would never happen and I have totally not even bothered to check the cap $'s and market rates to see if any of this is reasonable. That being said, I took a look at this list of FA's (http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/60771/309/updated-top-100-free-agents) and took an approach that Colbert and company really don't like to hit the draft with glaring holes. Even if it means they are counting on Cam Thomas on filling a role, it has been a consistent approach.

For the Secondary:
1. Sign Tashaun Gipson. Lower cost than Weddle. A gamble, but Gipson is an average NFL safety at worst. Prevents having to force a 1st or 2nd round pick onto the field or Shamarko Thomas.
2. Failing Gipson, sign Walter Thurmond as a safety. Same rationale as above. I prefer the roll of the dice on the younger player.
3. Take a flier on Jeremy Lane. Has played mostly inside for Seattle, but has the size to play outside.
4. Resign William Gay.
5. See what Boykin would take to play here. If it is reasonable sign him.
6. Let Golden walk.

That gives you Cockerell, Lane, Gay, Boykin, Golson, and Allen (will see at least training camp on the roster) at CB. Mitchell, Gipson/Thurmond, Thomas, and Grant at safety. Still leaves room for a draft pick at either safety or corner, but do not NEED one to come in and play.

For the Defensive Line:
1. Resign McCLendon. Wait - it makes more sense in a second. Keep in mind he can play DE or DT in this system.
2. Give Haloti Ngata an incentive laden deal to chase a ring. Sure he isn't the player he once was, but for a year or so? Plus maybe he could be sold on sticking it to the Ravens?
3. Another option would be Ian Williams from the 49'ers but he will likely cost too much. Same with Harrison from the Jets.

That should shore up the immediate depth issues. Leaves room to take a player from a deep DL class if the draft breaks right. Tuitt, Ngata, Heyward with McClendon, McCullers, and Geathers rotating in to keep snap counts down? That might work...

At LB
1. There is no FA help coming here. Anyone who would be available would cost too much. There isn't really anyone available anyways.
2. So here is an outside the box solution: Pursue Chris Long or Tamba Hali to fill the designated pass rusher role that Harrison had this season.
3. Draft an edge rusher. This means another top pick at LB. But this plan (or fantasy most likely given the cap space issues) would make that more palatable.

At Oline:
1. Beachum walks if he top $$
2. Sign the cheapest of the veteran guards on the market - Foster, Evans, Mathis, Schwarz, etc.
3. Draft an interior replacement and a tackle project.
4. Cross fingers that Villeneuva is the real deal.

AT RB:
1. Draft Deangelo Williams replacement and a Bell insurance policy.

That is about it. I do not think much of this is realistic for the Steelers to make work cap-wise, but I did try to target lower tier guys. What does anyone think?

Cyphon25
03-06-2016, 04:02 PM
- Well first, you lost me at let Golden walk. He should be our starter coming into the season. In very limited time he looked like he could make as much or more splash than any of our current DB's, let alone just safeties. He is also our ST captain so the team respects him and as lacking as we are in leadership already I don't think there is any way we should let him go.

I don't know much about any of the guys you mentioned in that section so I can't really comment further. I am definitely for resigning Gay and/or Boykin because they are our 2 best DB's.

- I am with you on resigning McClendon but I would really like it with the caveat you mentioned of the Steelers viewing him as a depth DE as well as an NT which they don't seem to do. The rotated him only on an extremely limited basis last season. If you don't view him that way, I don't see a ton of point in keeping him unless it is for really cheap. He doesn't play enough downs to pay good money to.

Ngata is the same story. If he is only going to be an NT there is no point in having him here. What would he add to the team? We would already have McClendon and probably McCullers still as a backup. So is this assuming McClendon goes or is this along with resigning him?

- For the LB's I would honestly rather have Harrison back as opposed to someone who might be a more effective pass rusher because I want what he provides to the locker room. I think you stick it out with who we have and draft a guy as well. Whether that is a DL you think can rush the passer or another OLB.

- I think I am mostly in agreement on the O line stuff. Can't see drafting a tackle project though, since that is basically what Villanueva is. If Foster walks we will definitely have to replace him but I hope it isn't with too high of a draft pick.

- No to getting another RB. Keep Todman if you can. He looks pretty good and has value at KR if the coaches would get their heads out of their asses.

Mojouw
03-06-2016, 04:34 PM
Golden, if he starts, just had his market set at like 4-6 million per year (see the other articles in a related thread)! No way I pay him that much money.

Ngata at 32 has a track record of being better at NT than the critics of McClendon and McCullers have those two players. So he represents and upgrade.

Prior to Cam Thomas completely failing, the Steelers did rotate out McClendon to DE for some stretches. Thomas sucked too bad to let the experiment continue. My idea is that McClendon becomes the 3rd DE and Nagta or the others I mentioned take over at NT.

It is great that Harrison provides something in the locker room. No doubt it has value, but this team simply needs to get a lot better at rushing the passer.

If Beachum leaves, Villeneuva is no longer a "project" he is the starting LT. Adams is the back-up. Need to get another player in to the pipeline for "draft and develop" to work.

RB needs an infusion of talent. Williams is good for another year. Bell is injured - often. Toussaint is not terrible, but do you want him to be the prime guy? Talented RBs can be found late in drafts due to the position being undervalued.

That is my thinking in response to your points, but I can also see what you are saying as well. It is always an interesting process to see how team's stack their resources to create a roster.

Cyphon25
03-06-2016, 04:54 PM
Golden, if he starts, just had his market set at like 4-6 million per year (see the other articles in a related thread)! No way I pay him that much money.

If they pay Mitchell that much there is no reason to not pay Golden that much. From what little we have seen of Golden I would say his ceiling is at least as high as what Mitchell gives us. And again, he has the added value of ST captain.


Ngata at 32 has a track record of being better at NT than the critics of McClendon and McCullers have those two players. So he represents and upgrade.

Prior to Cam Thomas completely failing, the Steelers did rotate out McClendon to DE for some stretches. Thomas sucked too bad to let the experiment continue. My idea is that McClendon becomes the 3rd DE and Nagta or the others I mentioned take over at NT.

Well, I definitely don't mind McClendon as a 3rd DE but I am still not sold on Ngata even if just signing him for one productive year. I am having trouble remembering if he is a good pass rusher or was he mainly just a beast against the run? Point being, whoever our NT is whether draft or whatever probably needs to have 3 down value.


It is great that Harrison provides something in the locker room. No doubt it has value, but this team simply needs to get a lot better at rushing the passer.

I fully agree on needing to get better at rushing the pass so for one, we have to hope Dupree is the real deal. On the other side I am just not sure. James clearly can't effectively rush the pass anymore but I don't know how much money I would want to dump into the position. Maybe Chickilo should get more of a shot this year? Jones clearly isn't cutting it either.


If Beachum leaves, Villeneuva is no longer a "project" he is the starting LT. Adams is the back-up. Need to get another player in to the pipeline for "draft and develop" to work.

Good point. But damn, if we need a G and a T in this draft that will suck given the defensive needs. I think you probably draft G and get a serviceable T in FA.


RB needs an infusion of talent. Williams is good for another year. Bell is injured - often. Toussaint is not terrible, but do you want him to be the prime guy? Talented RBs can be found late in drafts due to the position being undervalued.

That is my thinking in response to your points, but I can also see what you are saying as well. It is always an interesting process to see how team's stack their resources to create a roster.

Like I said, Todman would be my answer there. Coaches clearly don't agree since he is 4th on the depth chart but I would take him over Toisant easily and give him the KR job to lose.

Mojouw
03-06-2016, 05:13 PM
If they pay Mitchell that much there is no reason to not pay Golden that much. From what little we have seen of Golden I would say his ceiling is at least as high as what Mitchell gives us. And again, he has the added value of ST captain.

If he starts, he is no longer the ST captain. So there is no added value there. Mitchell proved that when healthy he is a far better player than Golden. Some one needs to seriously explain the Golden love to me. What has he demonstrated he can do? Not drop terrible mistake throws by the QB? Awesome! Let's pay him 6.5 million per year.


Well, I definitely don't mind McClendon as a 3rd DE but I am still not sold on Ngata even if just signing him for one productive year. I am having trouble remembering if he is a good pass rusher or was he mainly just a beast against the run? Point being, whoever our NT is whether draft or whatever probably needs to have 3 down value.

In his day Nagata was a flat-out beast in every facet of the game? Did you not see any of his Ravens career where he would single handedly take apart the Steelers offensive gameplan? At 32 is he that anymore? Nope. But he doesn't cost a draft pick. Signing him moves McClendon to DE. Makes two positions better at the DL group with one signing. Takes the pressure off having to hit a "home-run" with a rookie DL that has to come in and play big snaps right away.




I fully agree on needing to get better at rushing the pass so for one, we have to hope Dupree is the real deal. On the other side I am just not sure. James clearly can't effectively rush the pass anymore but I don't know how much money I would want to dump into the position. Maybe Chickilo should get more of a shot this year? Jones clearly isn't cutting it either.

I can agree with that. Point is, Dupree was one of the best rookie edge players in the last draft class. 4 sacks. That is what that got you. IF the Steelers want to enter 2015 loaded for bear, a rookie pass rusher with 4 sacks to contribute is not going to cut it. Again, I like the Chickfilet story, but someone is going to have to explain the love affair to me. I see a player who managed to beat some future Home Depot employees during preseason. Howard Jones, Vic So'to, Shawn Lemon - the list goes on. Should Chickfilet get a chance to prove his abilities against better competition? Absolutely. Am I counting on him for a blessed thing besides depth? No way.



Good point. But damn, if we need a G and a T in this draft that will suck given the defensive needs. I think you probably draft G and get a serviceable T in FA.
The Steelers do need a tackle and a guard. Cheaper to get a guard in FA than a Tackle. Quality of the player is likely better as well.



Like I said, Todman would be my answer there. Coaches clearly don't agree since he is 4th on the depth chart but I would take him over Toisant easily and give him the KR job to lose.
I would argue their are a half a dozen Todman's in every draft class. Many can be had as UDFA's. Throw a dart and see if you can do better.

Dwinsgames
03-06-2016, 05:13 PM
Robert Golden where Golden might currently be our best option at SS he at this point has not proved to be worth more than 2.5-3 million a year and I would not go that far unless its in the short term with incentives getting him to that amount ( roster bonus's / workout bonus's etc )

He played well in spot duty but did we not already make this same mistake with Cortez Allen ?


I would like Golden to stay but the position is very upgradable with or without him on the roster and I would be looking to do just that via the draft so I am unwilling to over pay a guy I am looking to be my backup by mid season ( or sooner )


Steve McLendon Like Golden the pos is upgradable sure he is a decent player but not what we are accustomed to and the coaches staffs unwillingness to use him at End compounds that problem for me . he most likely will want more money than his talent dictates for a 1 down player so going in another direction would be the prudent thing to do

I agree we need some infusion of talent on the 0-Line , DE ,OLB as well as TE but at the end of the day the secondary has to be top priority as it is the most devoid of talent across the board and everything else should take a backseat until it has been addressed

Cyphon25
03-06-2016, 05:57 PM
If he starts, he is no longer the ST captain. So there is no added value there. Mitchell proved that when healthy he is a far better player than Golden. Some one needs to seriously explain the Golden love to me. What has he demonstrated he can do? Not drop terrible mistake throws by the QB? Awesome! Let's pay him 6.5 million per year.

There is still the added value because it isn't like he is going to lose that team respect by becoming a starter. Captain obviously doesn't give anyone super powers so I am referring to what it means for the team to view you that way.

And I will ask you the same. Explain the Mitchell love? At his best he has been slightly above average for us and on the average he has been just okay. He is arrogant and given us multiple costly penalties on top of being a head hunter when he could be pulling down INT's. He had almost exactly the same stats as Will Allen and I know you don't think Will Allen should be paid that much either.

In 390 snaps Golden had 40 tackle, 1 INT and 4 Passes defended. In 1048 snaps Mitchell had 80 tackles, 3 INT's and 9 PD's. Just doing quick math you double Goldens snaps and output he is at 780 snaps, 80 tackles, 2 INT's and 8 PD's. So....Why is Mitchell worth so much more than Golden?

Obviously it isn't as simple as just doubling numbers like that but for all we know he is just as likely to triple his output as he is to lessen it.


In his day Nagata was a flat-out beast in every facet of the game? Did you not see any of his Ravens career where he would single handedly take apart the Steelers offensive gameplan? At 32 is he that anymore? Nope. But he doesn't cost a draft pick. Signing him moves McClendon to DE. Makes two positions better at the DL group with one signing. Takes the pressure off having to hit a "home-run" with a rookie DL that has to come in and play big snaps right away.

Fair points but at 32 I am just not doing it. I am not sure he would be a big upgrade on McClendon at this point anyway. So maybe another, younger guy at the right price.


I can agree with that. Point is, Dupree was one of the best rookie edge players in the last draft class. 4 sacks. That is what that got you. IF the Steelers want to enter 2015 loaded for bear, a rookie pass rusher with 4 sacks to contribute is not going to cut it. Again, I like the Chickfilet story, but someone is going to have to explain the love affair to me. I see a player who managed to beat some future Home Depot employees during preseason. Howard Jones, Vic So'to, Shawn Lemon - the list goes on. Should Chickfilet get a chance to prove his abilities against better competition? Absolutely. Am I counting on him for a blessed thing besides depth? No way.

Fair point on the Dupree thing. I do think we are basically one key piece away from that SB run so maybe we should pay big and get a good edge rusher.

As for Chickilo, I have no big love affair for him but he did flash some in the early days and the Steelers liked him enough to keep him on the roster. On top of that, you have done a slight disservice to him because Howard Jones is a pretty good player. In fact I think he had better output this season than our LB's lol.


The Steelers do need a tackle and a guard. Cheaper to get a guard in FA than a Tackle. Quality of the player is likely better as well.

True, but there are some great G's around our draft spots in the draft. So it kind of becomes a marriage of convenience to do the opposite. Get a Garnett or Westerman in the draft who is a day 1 starter and get a sold T as backup to Villi.


I would argue their are a half a dozen Todman's in every draft class. Many can be had as UDFA's. Throw a dart and see if you can do better.

But why waste the pick throwing darts if you have your answer? It isn't like Todman costs anything.

Mojouw
03-06-2016, 06:08 PM
Because Mitchell graded out as the 24th best safety out of 88 evaluated by PFF. Not the only or even best evaluation service, but the bottom line is that Mitchell sucked in 2014 and was in the top half of the league for safety play in 2015. One year he was healthy, one year he was hurt. So I'm going to go forward that the 2015 Mitchell is what the Steelers get for the next 2 seasons. Am I fan of the player or his game? Not really, but he is what he is and they are unlikely to find upgrades elsewhere.

And only 27 of Golden's tackles were on defense. The rest were on STs. He did have one INT on a garbage pass from a back-up QB. Solid 4 passes defensed. But again, is anyone super comfortable saying "Robert Golden, starting safety"? I'm not.

Cyphon25
03-06-2016, 06:15 PM
Because Mitchell graded out as the 24th best safety out of 88 evaluated by PFF. Not the only or even best evaluation service, but the bottom line is that Mitchell sucked in 2014 and was in the top half of the league for safety play in 2015. One year he was healthy, one year he was hurt. So I'm going to go forward that the 2015 Mitchell is what the Steelers get for the next 2 seasons. Am I fan of the player or his game? Not really, but he is what he is and they are unlikely to find upgrades elsewhere.

And only 27 of Golden's tackles were on defense. The rest were on STs. He did have one INT on a garbage pass from a back-up QB. Solid 4 passes defensed. But again, is anyone super comfortable saying "Robert Golden, starting safety"? I'm not.

Like I said, Mitchell had the same numbers as Allen and I think PFF graded him WAY higher than Allen. I would be interested to know what they were seeing. Because if Allen is terrible (and he is mostly), how come Mitchell has the same exact production? Something is missing in that equation.

Good point on Goldens tackles but remember I only doubled his numbers as opposed to giving him the same snap count as Mitchell. So given that, he is probably back up around 80 tackles or so. As for the INT, he was around the ball and that is right where a safety needs to be. It is good to keep things in context but you don't just get to erase the INT either. If I am not mistaken he had a dropped INT as well where he made a really good play on a ball but just couldn't quite bring it in.

And to your question, I am as comfortable saying Golden is our starting safety as I am saying Mitchell is. Take that however you want given you rate Mitchell much higher than me.

Psycho Ward 86
03-07-2016, 12:10 PM
Because Mitchell graded out as the 24th best safety out of 88 evaluated by PFF. Not the only or even best evaluation service, but the bottom line is that Mitchell sucked in 2014 and was in the top half of the league for safety play in 2015. One year he was healthy, one year he was hurt. So I'm going to go forward that the 2015 Mitchell is what the Steelers get for the next 2 seasons. Am I fan of the player or his game? Not really, but he is what he is and they are unlikely to find upgrades elsewhere.

And only 27 of Golden's tackles were on defense. The rest were on STs. He did have one INT on a garbage pass from a back-up QB. Solid 4 passes defensed. But again, is anyone super comfortable saying "Robert Golden, starting safety"? I'm not.

see, and mitchell actually played a good chunk of the tail end of the past season with a shoulder injury (that needed surgery or almost did if i recall correctly?) and still played at the level that he did. so im happy with the signing after seeing what he can do semi-healthy.

btw, after golden's re-signing today, do you still want Gipson or Thurmond?

personally, the fan in me wants to do it, but i think it would be prudent to just draft one because we do have a lot of options. I do see your 2 choices as the most steeler-like choices though. Either option could be an incredible boon for whatever team picks them up. I keep hearing that the eagles had arguably the best safety tandem in the league though, so i fear he wont be quite as affordable as it first looked like

Mojouw
03-07-2016, 01:28 PM
see, and mitchell actually played a good chunk of the tail end of the past season with a shoulder injury (that needed surgery or almost did if i recall correctly?) and still played at the level that he did. so im happy with the signing after seeing what he can do semi-healthy.

btw, after golden's re-signing today, do you still want Gipson or Thurmond?

personally, the fan in me wants to do it, but i think it would be prudent to just draft one because we do have a lot of options. I do see your 2 choices as the most steeler-like choices though. Either option could be an incredible boon for whatever team picks them up. I keep hearing that the eagles had arguably the best safety tandem in the league though, so i fear he wont be quite as affordable as it first looked like

I would still want to sign one. Golden is no sure thing. Mitchell's play could crater at any point. So bringing in another talented player at the position group would be ideal. It keeps you from having to draft any single position in a given round come the draft.

I think the market is going to take everyone out of the Steelers price point, like you pointed out.