My Steelers coaches grades for the 2015 season

[zulater]

We'll start at the top and get around to the rest through the rest of the month.


Mike Tomlin B+ I could have gone with an A but his mysterious handling of Brandon Boykin and my opinion that our season was saved by Mike Vick getting injured and being unable to go back into the Cardinals game downgrades him a bit. The Boykin thing has been discussed to death, so outside of pointing out the obvious, that he left a player that could help the team on the sidelines for God only knows why? And with Vick by his own admission had Vick not pulled himself out of the Cardinal game he would have kept trotting him out there despite the fact he was sucking the life out of the team with his ineptness. If you want to blame him for either Raven loss feel free to do so. But I wont join you. A kicker cost us the first one. And a wrongly overturned td catch likely cost us the second one. I don't buy into the narrative that Tomlin didn't have the team prepared. Ben had a bad game. I don't how Tomlin is to blame for that?

Enough of the bad. The positives far outweighed the negatives. Start with bringing in DeAngelo Williams, telling him to come in at a lower weight than he had played at for years, and viola! You have yourself a player who should have got serious consideration for comeback player of the year. Then consider how he brought Alejendro Villenuevo to this team based on his impression of how he looked standing on the sideline during the national anthem. And not only did he have the insight to claim him on waivers when the Eagles cut him, but he also had the foresight to switch him to OT. ( he as a DE with the Eagles and a TE in college) Stroke of genius! One that probably saved our season no less! Then let's get to the fact that he had his team overcame injuries and suspensions to essential players on both sides of the field. Everyone remembers the injuries to Ben, Bell, Pouncey, Williams, and Beachum.
(Also the suspensions to Bell and Bryant). But he also lost Shazier, Stephon Tuitt, Mike Mitchell, and Lawrence Timmons to injuries at various points throughout the season. The team took on the attitude of the coach and felt as though no injury was insurmountable. This carried through to the playoffs when the Steelers lost their two top backs and overcame, then followed up and almost overcame that along with the loss of the best wr in the game.

Yes Tomlin sometimes makes some in game decisions that leave you scratching your head. ( same as every other coach in the league though) His clock management at times is deficient. But he owns that locker room. The notion that he's too much a player coach has long since been dispelled to anyone paying attention. Yes players like him. But they also respect him. And practically to a man would march to hell and back for him. How do I know this? Because current and former players constantly say so, and when you keep hearing the same theme maybe you need to take notice. I'll give you the clincher for me. Brandon Boykin. He was asked about Chip Kelly's recent firing. He didn't hesitate to offer some less than flattering thoughts on Kelly and why it was good he was let go. But that's not what caught my attention. What caught my attention was his glowing praise of Tomlin, and the contrasts he offered comparing one to the other. Perhaps you can claim he was kissing ass trying to remain a Steeler. To which I would ask as poorly as we perceived his handling by the Steelers, particularly early in the season why would he bother? I think he is smart enough to know that he's not in the Steelers long term plans. But yet his praise for Tomlin was pretty much unreserved. Which I found remarkable.

Bottom line is players play for him, and other players want to play for him. Which makes this team attractive to free agents out there. Tomlin had a damn good year, and he's one of the leagues better head coaches. I think he's improved leaps and bounds from his early days in the job. His message isn't getting old. This is his team, and they want to win with him and for him!

Next up Todd Haley on Thursday.

[zulater]

In retrospect I'm wondering if I should somehow re-title this thread so as it contains Tomlin's name? The reason being is this board is something I take pride in, something I want to resonate throughout Steeler nation. Yet the only prominent thread on this board to have our coaches name in the title is one that demands his firing. I think that marginalizes us to a large degree. Makes us look like a bunch of reactionary clueless yinzers. Which to some extent we are, and I include myself in this category.( At times). But while it's certainly part of who we are, it's not all that we are. I think we're also thoughtful, insightful, knowledgeable and patient. And I want that to come out as well as our reactionary (fan) side.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to quell any or all criticism of Tomlin or any of our coaches. I'm not saying there's not valid criticisms to be made. I'm not even suggesting that there haven't been times when the thought of firing Tomin wasn't within the realm or consideration. But certainly not at this point in time. I don't see how anyone can go into this offseason believing that Tomlin isn't fit for the job going forward? So I ask you, do you think it's time we have a counter thread to "Fire Mike Tomlin?



If you think I'm being too politically correct feel free to say so.:uhoh:

[86WARD]

Asking for it again...lol.

I like everything you posted and agree with most all of it. The one thing I would add, if you are giving him credit for bringing in DeAngelo, you have to hold him accountable for trading for Scobee. I liked that trade but I always felt like something was fishy about it...Jacksonville knew they were getting one over on the Steelers there. So in a way, Tomlin was responsible for the losses Scobee brought upon this team.

I've said multiple times and still stick with it...Tomlin should've been in the talk for coach of the year despite the criticism which we throw out there at him out of frustration. He did a lot with. A lot of coaches wouldn't have been able to do half as much as Tomlin did. I'd give him an A- as an overall grade. I put more of the transactions on Colbert. The Boykin thing baffles me both at CB and KR...makes no sense...

[Born2Steel]

I give Tomlin more credit than most I guess. He has put together a very productive offensive staff, he made the move to Butler at DC, the defense has definitely gotten younger and faster, he didn't even have all his players for ANY stretch of games and still managed to make the playoffs and make the Bungles look like total losers again.

[polamalubeast]

Tomlin is a very good coach when his team is underdog and the steelers face adversity like injuries, suspensions, etc.The players respect a lot Tomlin too.

What I would like Tomlin improves, this is of course the games that the steelers are supposed to win.

[zulater]

http://espn.go.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/25661/mike-tomlin-is-the-afc-north-coach-of-the-year

Mike Tomlin is the AFC North coach of the year

NFL Nation reporters from the AFC North -- Jeremy Fowler, Coley Harvey, Jamison Hensley and Pat McManamon -- have reviewed the film and sorted through the analytics to determine the 2015 annual awards for the division. On Thursday, we're handing out the AFC North coach of the year.

Winner: Mike Tomlin

Runner-up: Marvin Lewis

The Pittsburgh Steelers' Tomlin was not among the seven who received votes for NFL Coach of the Year in 2015, and the Carolina Panthers' Ron Rivera was rightfully the runaway winner.

But, in terms of the AFC North, Tomlin was the no-brainer for the coach of the year.

Tomlin led the Steelers to a 10-6 record despite half of their starters (11 of 22) missing games because of injuries, including three current or former All-Pro players. He guided them to a wild-card berth even though quarterback Ben Roethlisberger (four games), running back Le'Veon Bell (eight), center Maurkice Pouncey (16) and left tackle Kelvin Beachum (10) were sidelined a total of 38 games.

The only other coach who was under consideration was Marvin Lewis, and he didn't have to overcome nearly as many hurdles as Tomlin, even though the division champion Cincinnati Bengals' one significant injury in 2015 was quarterback Andy Dalton. Tomlin went through three starting quarterbacks in 2015 (Roethlisberger, Michael Vick and Landry Jones).

Tomlin also bettered Lewis and the Bengals in an AFC wild-card game, winning with a former Ravens practice squad player at running back (Fitzgerald Toussaint) and an Army Ranger at starting left tackle (Alejandro Villanueva).




For what it's worth. :chuckle:

I'm a little disappointed more people haven't chimed in to offer their seasons grade on Tomlin? :no:

Just shoot from the hip, give what you feel sounds right as far as a grade for Tomlin.

I'll get around to Haley sooner or later.

[teegre]

Good thread, Zu.

I've been out of commission for a few days. Only time to post a few words here & there. I'll get back to this in a little bit (once I have time for a well-constructed response).

[Craic]

Been busy for a few days as well. . .


As for your grade, Zu, I'd up it just a hair to A-, based on one piece of logic that I disagree with you on (among everything else you wrote that I honestly think you are spot on with), and that's Boykin. Over the last week or so, it seems to have come out strongly that Boykin had a hard time grasping the Steelers D and his responsibilities in it, and that's what kept him on the bench.

On the other hand, you have a point asking why he wasn't returning kicks or punts if he was able to (maybe they tried him out? :huh: ) I also think you're right on in that Tomlin gets a lot of credit for switching kickers midstream and somehow, landing a good one, yet also having to place a bit of the blame for ScoobyDoo on him as well. I get why Tomlin would do it . . . veterans tend to straighten themselves out, so it was worth the risk to a certain point.

Sure, there were little in-game scenarios that had me scratching my head at times, but overall, with all the injuries and other things, he gets an A, reduced to A- for holding Scooby too long and not figuring something better out at returner.

[Mojouw]

A- or B+ has to be where I fall as well.

Points off for in game stuff, but I don't mark him down as much as others. Tomlin makes mistakes, but they are almost always aggressive mistakes. My old man always told me if you're going to make a mistake, might as well make one trying to get something done.

Boykin/Blake is the other bad mark. The good in managing the rest of the roster more than makes up for it.

[teegre]

Great analysis, Zu. Great.

The in-game stuff doesn't really bother me, because I have watched many other coaches make similar mistakes. As Steelers fans, we only focus on the mistakes made by our coach... but, we ignore the fact that in-game decisions are made in a matter of 30 seconds. Tomlin is aggressive... and that has generally paid off.

Speaking of which... going to the two-point conversions on a regular basis: brilliant.

Boykin is a head-scratcher. Except, in the Denver playoff game, we saw Boykin totally out of position allowing Denver to convert a third-&-12 to a scrub WR. I know, I know: Blake allowed third down conversions all season long, but that was to the #1 or #2 receiver on the opposing team.

Blake is the only reason that I downgrade Tomlin.

Getting to within a fumble of beating Denver in Denver, with a severely hobbled team... that was spectacular.

A-

[zulater]

Just to play a little devils advocate. Had the Jets beat the Bills in their season finale, would that affect your grade on Tomlin?:stirthepot:

I got a feeling that same 10-6 that has most of us giving Tomlin an A to B+ type grade might be more in the B to B- range. And of course the Tomlin doubters who have yet to appear on this thread would likely be out in force.

Me personally I probably would downgrade from B+ to B. I still think 10-6 given the injuries, schedule, and suspensions this team had to deal with is still pretty impressive.

[B&GFever]

I am not so sure the Alejendro Villenuevo decision of acquiring him or moving him from DE to OT had anything to do at all with Tomlin , sure I could be wrong but I have not seen anything to prove or discount this information and since it is Colberts job to acquire the talent I owuld lean more towards it being him that should get the credit for that move , but hey that's just me

[zulater]

I am not so sure the Alejendro Villenuevo decision of acquiring him or moving him from DE to OT had anything to do at all with Tomlin , sure I could be wrong but I have not seen anything to prove or discount this information and since it is Colberts job to acquire the talent I owuld lean more towards it being him that should get the credit for that move , but hey that's just me

Villanueva graduated from The United States Military Academy at West Point in 2010 and after a short stint with the Bengals, he spent the next four years defending his country. That included three tours in Afghanistan as an Army Ranger where he earned numerous honors, including the Bronze Star Medal for Valor, the Ranger Tab, the Parachutist Badge, the Bronze Star Medal for overseas service, National Defense Service Medal, Afghanistan Campaign Medal with Campaign Star, Global War on Terrorism Service Ribbon, Army Service Ribbon, Overseas Service Ribbon, NATO Medal, Combat Infantryman's Badge and Expert Infantryman's Badge.

“That's something I couldn't imagine doing,” said Steelers linebacker James Harrison told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette last month. “And he did it, and enjoyed it, and would be willing to do it again. We need individuals like him to help secure the freedoms that we enjoy right now.”

After returning stateside, Villanueva decided to give the NFL one last shot. In April 2014, he took part in NFL's Super Regional Combine, along with 240 other hopefuls. A month later, the 6-9, 277-pounder signed with the Eagles as a defensive lineman.

Villanueva had last played in 2009, his senior season at Army, when he caught 34 passes for 552 yards and 5 touchdowns as a wide receiver. Specifically: as a 6-9, 290-pound wide receiver. He began his college career as a defensive lineman (2006-2007) before moving to left tackle in 2008, where he started 12 games as a junior.

Despite the long stretch between his football days at Army and signing with the Eagles, Villanueva has no regrets.

"As soon as I graduated, especially with all my classmates at West Point who were all going to serve, my mind and my heart were going to Afghanistan," he told NFL.com in April 2014. "That's where I wanted to be. I wanted to serve, I wanted to see combat. I was actually trying to get as many deployments as I could, and see it with different units. That's where my mind and my heart was. ...

"The four years I've had in the Army have been the best four years you could ask for. The guys I served with ... above me and under me ... were phenomenal guys. They were good experiences that made me the man I am today. But now, I see this as a win-win situation. Obviously, I'm trying to get to a team and contribute. But if I can't, then I can't wait to get back to the Army and serve in the same manner that I have."

Villanueva didn't stick with the Eagles, but in his brief time with the team he caught the eye of Steelers coach Mike Tomlin. During a 2014 preseason game between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, Tomlin noticed Villanueva before kickoff.

"I looked across the field during the anthem and there's a guy standing over there about a head taller than everybody else and saluting during the anthem," Tomlin told the media on Oct. 20, two days after Villanueva saw extensive action against the Cardinals. "It kind of got my attention. I wanted to know about this enormous human being over there saluting."

Born in Mississippi to Spanish parents, Villanueva grew up in Rhode Island, Spain and Belgium and learned to play rugby before football. And Tomlin and the Steelers thought enough of Villanueva to sign him shortly after he was released by the Eagles. Villanueva spent the 2014 season on the Steelers' practice squad, and a year later, he made the team's 53-man roster.

"He worked hard and really developed a lot last season, just learning on the scout team and learning our offense by sitting in the room and absorbing what we were doing," Steelers offensive line coach Mike Muchak told CBSSports.com earlier this month. "He had missed all of training camp (signing with the Steelers in late August) so he was just picking it up during the season.

"What we saw right away was that he's such a competitor, obviously, and how he wanted to be the best no matter what he did. So he fit right in right away with this group. ... And the fact that [his teammates] are confident in him -- I think he's earned that respect a long time ago when he walked through the door when they saw the way he worked."
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25369962/from-army-ranger-to-steelers-tackle-alejandro-villanueva-excels-at-protection

[Craic]

Just to play a little devils advocate. Had the Jets beat the Bills in their season finale, would that affect your grade on Tomlin?:stirthepot:

I got a feeling that same 10-6 that has most of us giving Tomlin an A to B+ type grade might be more in the B to B- range. And of course the Tomlin doubters who have yet to appear on this thread would likely be out in force.

Me personally I probably would downgrade from B+ to B. I still think 10-6 given the injuries, schedule, and suspensions this team had to deal with is still pretty impressive.

True, and I'd probably move him down to a B+ or B as well. But, part of that is because I think he put together two brilliant games overall in the playoffs to take such a hobbled team and get within a fumble of the AFCCG - and that against the future SB champions. So, those extra two games really did earn Tomlin a bump in the grading scale, I think.

[teegre]

The victory over the Bengals in the playoffs felt like two victories. One of the most rewarding victories that I can recall. That alone almost solidifies Tomlin's grade as an A.

[polamalubeast]

The victory over the Bengals in the playoffs felt like two victories. One of the most rewarding victories that I can recall. That alone almost solidifies Tomlin's grade as an A.


And the Playoffs loss in Denver is maybe the best playoffs loss in Steelers history!

[teegre]

And the Playoffs loss in Denver is maybe the best playoffs loss in Steelers history!

Yep.
A playoff loss doesn't ever feel "good", but it didn't hurt like other losses... specifically, the 1994 AFCCG.

[86WARD]

I'd downgrade Tomlin from A- to B if they missed the playoffs again.

[Count Steeler]

The thing I find about Tomlin is he losses his peripheral vision at times. What do I mean? Take the San Diego game. Love the gutsy call for going for the win, and I think that was his primary focus. But then, he doesn't realize the clock is running when it should not be.

Now, it happens that the whole stadium missed the mysterious 18 seconds, but the HC or someone on his staff should be looking at the time, especially in that tight of a situation. Can't trust the refs anymore in this league.

I would even point to the first drive of our season in Foxboro. The headsets were an issue, but you got to get your guys focused and overcome the adversity. I would love to know who called the reverse option play with Brown, but that play should have been put on the shelf when the Steelers were moving the ball as well as they were.

I hope he sticks to his promise and reviews his handling of the "should win" games in the off season.

Tomlin has come a long way in his last 2-3 years and I am hoping he has matured along with the rest of this team and they are ready to go on a SB string over the next 5 years. Entirely possible with Ben and the weapons that he has, an O line that is solid, and a defense that should be better and better over the next few years.

I give him a solid B with the arrow pointing upwards.

[zulater]

On to Todd Haley.

The end result is we had a really good offense despite losing a lot of key personel for all (Pouncey) or parts of the season. Yes sometimes his playcalling frustrates me. But in fairness find an NFL city where the OC's play calling isn't called into question. You think Panther fans are happy with their game plan and play calling in the Super Bowl? Even Patriot fans wondered why the Patriots couldn't figure out Denver's blitzes better. When it works it was great execution by the players. When it doesn't, what a shitty play call! I mean do we always know the purpose of a play? Do we ever consider that some plays are meant to set up something later in the game? For example we cry when the Steelers try a deep pass on 3rd and short when it fails ( forgetting bout the times we've hit on big plays doing so) But did you ever consider by doing this they may be buying themselves more running room on later similar situations? Perhaps that 2nd quarter fail will contribute to a huge 4th quarter conversion by making the safeties keep out of the "box"? While I understand the offensive personell is better than it was a few years back I don't think you can dismiss Haley's offense as a factor to this team being so much better in short yardage situations than it was before he got here. Am I the only one that remembers prior to Haley's arrival anything longer than inches to go was a must passing down for this team? 3rd and 2 try to run? Yeah right, not an effing chance with the old regime. Now it can be 3rd and 3 or even 4 and you can;t dismiss the possibility we can pick it up on the ground.

Anyway we still tend to self immolate in the red zone too often. And like all OC's do sometimes Haley tries to out smart himself and calls a dumb gadget play when his offense has just been kicking ass at the line of scrimmage and there's no need to trick anyone. (see opening series New England game) And of course there's those wonderful moments when he hands off to a back 8 yards deep and attempts to run into a stacked defense ( see last Raven game) or decides to pass from an empty back set on first and goal at the half yard line! (Ravens again)


But all in all Haley is doing the job he was paid to. Ben throws for more yards than he ever has. And he gets sacked far less often in doing so. And the Steelers run the ball way more effectively than they have since the Bus was in his hey day. So as unpopular as it may make me, I think Haley is deserving of an A- .

[Mojouw]

My thoughts onb Haley are about the same.

[teegre]

HALEY

Keepijg BB upright: A
More passing yards: A
Brain-farting: D

Summation: B+

If he'd simply put the ball in the hands of the best players (BB, AB, Bell) as opposed to getting cute (Johnson, Spaeth, Nix) he's not only solve the red-zone issues, he'd get an A+.

[zulater]

HALEY

Keepijg BB upright: A
More passing yards: A
Brain-farting: D

Summation: B+

If he'd simply put the ball in the hands of the best players (BB, AB, Bell) as opposed to getting cute (Johnson, Spaeth, Nix) he's not only solve the red-zone issues, he'd get an A+.

Fair point. Truth be told my initial grade for Haley was B+ as well. But knowing out there lurking somewhere is Professor knowall, and remembering his deep seeded hatred of Haley I couldn't resist. :chuckle:

Seriously I did go back and forth on it. But in the end I edged it up for the combined reason of Ben's production going up while concurrently sacks went down. And also the aforementioned situational running being so much better now.

[86WARD]

Would also give Haley an A-. And I would give him a lot of credit from the previous season as well. He dealt with some garbage at QB and his hands were tied at times because of it. The team was not good on offense at that time, but they were able to keep their head above water. I'm not sure a lot of coaching staffs, in general, would have been able to do that.

He's gotten some great production out of this offense, he finds a way to use the strengths of his offensive players to make them succeed most of the time. I give him much credit.

[j-d-s]

http://espn.go.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/25661/mike-tomlin-is-the-afc-north-coach-of-the-year

Mike Tomlin is the AFC North coach of the year

NFL Nation reporters from the AFC North -- Jeremy Fowler, Coley Harvey, Jamison Hensley and Pat McManamon -- have reviewed the film and sorted through the analytics to determine the 2015 annual awards for the division. On Thursday, we're handing out the AFC North coach of the year.

Winner: Mike Tomlin

Runner-up: Marvin Lewis

The Pittsburgh Steelers' Tomlin was not among the seven who received votes for NFL Coach of the Year in 2015, and the Carolina Panthers' Ron Rivera was rightfully the runaway winner.

But, in terms of the AFC North, Tomlin was the no-brainer for the coach of the year.

Tomlin led the Steelers to a 10-6 record despite half of their starters (11 of 22) missing games because of injuries, including three current or former All-Pro players. He guided them to a wild-card berth even though quarterback Ben Roethlisberger (four games), running back Le'Veon Bell (eight), center Maurkice Pouncey (16) and left tackle Kelvin Beachum (10) were sidelined a total of 38 games.

The only other coach who was under consideration was Marvin Lewis, and he didn't have to overcome nearly as many hurdles as Tomlin, even though the division champion Cincinnati Bengals' one significant injury in 2015 was quarterback Andy Dalton. Tomlin went through three starting quarterbacks in 2015 (Roethlisberger, Michael Vick and Landry Jones).

Tomlin also bettered Lewis and the Bengals in an AFC wild-card game, winning with a former Ravens practice squad player at running back (Fitzgerald Toussaint) and an Army Ranger at starting left tackle (Alejandro Villanueva).




For what it's worth. :chuckle:

I'm a little disappointed more people haven't chimed in to offer their seasons grade on Tomlin? :no:

Just shoot from the hip, give what you feel sounds right as far as a grade for Tomlin.

I'll get around to Haley sooner or later.

Well, considering the competition Tomlin is the obvious choice. The Browns coach (whomever that was, I don't remember Browns coaches' names since they fire the guys always after one season) got fired, Johnny Harbaugh had one nightmare of a season (but I still think he is one of the best coaches in the league, even though I don't like him a bit) and Lewis should've been fired because he constantly keeps the thug players like Burfict or Pacman on his team yet he fails to control them - or at least don't let 'em take the field when they're in full thug mode. In my opinion, Lewis is the main reason the Bungles haven't won any of their playoff games despite making it most of the time.

[Mojouw]

Here is what pisses me off about the Harbaugh love - especially from the lazy media (I'm not trying to call out j-d-s here at all, the post just got me thinking) - last season says it all. The Ravens were riddled with injuries, for sure - but the team kind of collapsed and packed it in. Tomlin led teams have never done that. Yet Harbaugh is sometime spoken of in whispered and awestruck tones and Tomlin is more of a "meh".

[polamalubeast]

Here is what pisses me off about the Harbaugh love - especially from the lazy media (I'm not trying to call out j-d-s here at all, the post just got me thinking) - last season says it all. The Ravens were riddled with injuries, for sure - but the team kind of collapsed and packed it in. Tomlin led teams have never done that. Yet Harbaugh is sometime spoken of in whispered and awestruck tones and Tomlin is more of a "meh".


It was the first bad season of Harbaugh since he is with the Ravens.Bad seasons, it happens.It also happened to Tomlin too.Flacco was injured when the Ravens were 3-7.If Ben was injured in 2013 after their 2-6 record, the Steelers would have finished the season at 4-12 at best.Each loss of the ravens with Flacco have been very close.

Harbaugh is not perfect, but the Ravens have been more consistent, especially in the playoffs.

[fansince'76]

It was the first bad season of Harbaugh since he is with the Ravens.Bad seasons, it happens.

What about the Ravens' 8-8 3rd place AFCN finish in 2013? Yeah, bad seasons happen, but they aren't tolerated whatsoever under Tomlin whereas Harbaugh is given a pass. I think that's what Mojouw is getting at, and I wholeheartedly agree. The "Fire Tomlin" thread invariably heats up after EVERY loss, without fail.


Harbaugh is not perfect, but the Ravens have been more consistent, especially in the playoffs.

Except for the simple fact that the Steelers have finished ahead of the Ravens in the AFCN the last 3 seasons in a row at this point. And I haven't seen anything that suggests that will suddenly change next season either.

[Mojouw]

What about the Ravens' 8-8 3rd place AFCN finish in 2013? Yeah, bad seasons happen, but they aren't tolerated whatsoever under Tomlin whereas Harbaugh is given a pass. I think that's what Mojouw is getting at, and I wholeheartedly agree. The "Fire Tomlin" thread invariably heats up after EVERY loss, without fail.



Except for the simple fact that the Steelers have finished ahead of the Ravens in the AFCN the last 3 seasons in a row at this point. And I haven't seen anything that suggests that will suddenly change next season either.

That would cover it. Plus under Harbaugh's tenure that roster has really gone to crap. Zero legit offensive weapons besides Steve Smith. The secondary is a mess. The front 7 is Suggs and some draft busts plus Mosley.

I mean all the things that are fretted about for the Steelers are actually happening for the Ravens, and its "Oh. yeah. One of the best coaches in the league. Wish he was in charge of my team."

[polamalubeast]

What about the Ravens' 8-8 3rd place AFCN finish in 2013? Yeah, bad seasons happen, but they aren't tolerated whatsoever under Tomlin whereas Harbaugh is given a pass. I think that's what Mojouw is getting at, and I wholeheartedly agree. The "Fire Tomlin" thread invariably heats up after EVERY loss, without fail.
Flacco was very horrible(By far his worst season of his career) and their running game were historically bad.8-8 was an accomplishment with this offense

Also, the Ravens lost several starters from their Super Bowl team.

This is possible that Tomlin is better than Harbaugh, but Tomlin and Harbaugh has pros and cons.



That would cover it. Plus under Harbaugh's tenure that roster has really gone to crap. Zero legit offensive weapons besides Steve Smith. The secondary is a mess. The front 7 is Suggs and some draft busts plus Mosley.

I mean all the things that are fretted about for the Steelers are actually happening for the Ravens, and its "Oh. yeah. One of the best coaches in the league. Wish he was in charge of my team."


Harbaugh is not the GM of the ravens.Ozzie is the GM.

[Mojouw]

Flacco was very horrible(By far his worst season of his career) and their running game were historically bad.8-8 was an accomplishment with this offense

Also, the Ravens lost several starters from their Super Bowl team.

This is possible that Tomlin is better than Harbaugh, but Tomlin and Harbaugh has pros and cons.





Harbaugh is not the GM of the ravens.Ozzie is the GM.

I agree with everything you are saying, but look at how Tomlin is talked about. He gets fire for who does and does not get drafted. He gets crap for the playcalling. He gets crap for the attitude of the players. On and on and on. Tomlin lost the entire heart of a multiple SB team. I could go on. But, at least for Steelers fans, Tomlin is very often not good enough. I look at what Harbaugh did last year with that roster and the injuries and I can't help but not be impressed. Like not impressed at all. I feel that Tomlin has the ability to guide a team through adversity way better than most NFL coaches.

I don't know. I'm ranting and not really making a point here. I guess the bottom line is I think Harbaugh is over rated.

[polamalubeast]

I agree with everything you are saying, but look at how Tomlin is talked about. He gets fire for who does and does not get drafted. He gets crap for the playcalling. He gets crap for the attitude of the players. On and on and on. Tomlin lost the entire heart of a multiple SB team. I could go on. But, at least for Steelers fans, Tomlin is very often not good enough. I look at what Harbaugh did last year with that roster and the injuries and I can't help but not be impressed. Like not impressed at all. I feel that Tomlin has the ability to guide a team through adversity way better than most NFL coaches.

I don't know. I'm ranting and not really making a point here. I guess the bottom line is I think Harbaugh is over rated.

Harbaugh and Tomlin have strengths and weaknesses.

One of the strengths of Tomlin is when his team had adversity because of injury or suspension.Like 2010 and 2015.Tomlin is highly respected by his players too.

One of the weaknesses of Tomlin is of course when his team plays against a bad team!!

[fansince'76]

Flacco was very horrible(By far his worst season of his career) and their running game were historically bad.8-8 was an accomplishment with this offense

Also, the Ravens lost several starters from their Super Bowl team.

This is possible that Tomlin is better than Harbaugh, but Tomlin and Harbaugh has pros and cons.

Fair enough. The Ravens have won 8 out of the last 11 against us. Kinda embarrassing.

[polamalubeast]

Fair enough. The Ravens have won 8 out of the last 11 against us. Kinda embarrassing.

The steelers had the number of the Ravens in 2008 to 2010(6-0 when it was Ben the starter).Since 2011,this is different....I hope it will change next year!

[zulater]

As far as the recent Steelers -Ravens "trend". I don't make too much of it. More coincidental than anything. I mean does anyone really think that John Harbaugh anything to do with a fg kicker not being able to do his job or Mike Vick's ineptness? Or did John Harbaugh magically make LeVeon Bell disappear for last year's playoff game? If last year had been this year with the Steelers having DeAngelo or even Tuissant things probably go down differently in that wildcard game last year. But as we know the Steelers just weren't prepared for that injury in 14. Honestly the only one hard to explain is this year's game 15 loss. But even then the Ravens had their Super Bowl that day, and the Steelers due to an early missed opportunity and a wrongly reversed first half td were forced to play the entire game from behind. That combined with Ben having a sub par game led to a horribly timed loss.

Going forward I doubt it means a damn thing. I look forward to a Steeler sweep over the Ravens in 16.

[zulater]

I'll get around to Keith Butler's grade sometime next week. But if someone wants to take the initiative by all means feel free to do so.

I thought about it but decided not to go through all the positional coaches. But I might change my mind somewhere down the road, it's a long offseason.

Of course if I were to do so I think Mike Munchak's grade would be a given. And that of course would be an A+. To overcome the loss of perhaps the two most significant starters and hardly miss a beat was nothing short of amazing. If there's any mystery it's how come no team with a coaching vacancy come sniffing at his door? Lucky for us they didn't.

To think the Titans fired Munchak and now have Mike Mularkey as their coach for next season! :sofunny: What morons! :pointlaugh:

[polamalubeast]

As far as the recent Steelers -Ravens "trend". I don't make too much of it. More coincidental than anything. I mean does anyone really think that John Harbaugh anything to do with a fg kicker not being able to do his job or Mike Vick's ineptness? Or did John Harbaugh magically make LeVeon Bell disappear for last year's playoff game? If last year had been this year with the Steelers having DeAngelo or even Tuissant things probably go down differently in that wildcard game last year. But as we know the Steelers just weren't prepared for that injury in 14. Honestly the only one hard to explain is this year's game 15 loss. But even then the Ravens had their Super Bowl that day, and the Steelers due to an early missed opportunity and a wrongly reversed first half td were forced to play the entire game from behind. That combined with Ben having a sub par game led to a horribly timed loss.

Going forward I doubt it means a damn thing. I look forward to a Steeler sweep over the Ravens in 16.

Bell's injury was huge, but the Steelers defense was so bad in this game, it was painful to watch.

The Ravens have scored in 6 of their 8 drives for 30 points, the Steelers defense was unable to make a stop.

[fansince'76]

Bell's injury was huge, but the Steelers defense was so bad in this game, it was painful to watch.

The Ravens have scored in 6 of their 8 drives for 30 points, the Steelers defense was unable to make a stop.

That loss was more on LeBeau than Tomlin, IMO. Will Allen should have gotten the start over Polamalu and the fact that he didn't completely screwed up the chemistry that the defense (namely the secondary) had been building for a number of weeks prior to that game. If you're going to blame Tomlin for anything, I guess you could blame him for not overruling LeBeau and starting Allen anyway. Polamalu should have been made to take a seat as soon as the team introductions were over and it was obviously LeBeau's call that he didn't.

[polamalubeast]

I not blame Tomlin for the loss against the Ravens.It's just that this loss was because of the injury to Bell, but also the terrible defense that the Steelers had in 2014.Tomlin and Harbaugh are at the same level for me.They have strengths and weaknesses and the Ravens owns us since 2011, but that can change quickly sometimes.

It's funny, because right now in this division, the ravens owns the steelers, the Steelers owns the bengals(especially in Cincinnati) and the Bengals owns the ravens.

[zulater]

That loss was more on LeBeau than Tomlin, IMO. Will Allen should have gotten the start over Polamalu and the fact that he didn't completely screwed up the chemistry that the defense (namely the secondary) had been building for a number of weeks prior to that game. If you're going to blame Tomlin for anything, I guess you could blame him for not overruling LeBeau and starting Allen anyway. Polamalu should have been made to take a seat as soon as the team introductions were over and it was obviously LeBeau's call that he didn't.

I get where you're coming from. And it's true the defense just didn't show up that day and I said at the time that starting Troy was a big mistake. So I'm with you there. But more than anything I think the loss of Bell when it occurred just tore the heart out of that team. Remember LeVeon was the team MVP by a large margin. And worse yet they had nothing resembling a decent back up. I would compare it to the loss of Rocky and Franco going into the 76 AFC title game. The Steelers should have and could have played better on both sides of the ball that day. But losing the focal point of the offense the previous game left the team with a virtual hangover effect.

So I would blame LeBeau more than Tomlin. But more than either I would just curse fate. Next man up is a nice cliche, but sometimes next man up just wont cut it.

[Cyphon25]

Haven't been active for awhile so I may be a bit behind.

My grade on Tomlin for this year would be around a C+.

We should always have this conversation with the caveat that we just don't know everything so it is hard to assign blame or credit from an outside perspective. We can only judge what we directly see. Anyway....

Positives

Tomlin is a great motivator and gets this team to buy into the next man up mentality. It is hard to really put a grade on something like this but the guys seem to love playing for him and he has their respect. I have no question Tomlin loves his guys, the city, the team and the game of football. Despite the injuries and adversity we made it to the playoffs and as I said, he had this team believing they could do it no matter who was out.

Negatives

He again continued to show some frightening inconsistencies with clock management. You would think he would have someone on the sideline helping him with the task after he has screwed it up so many times but he still hasn't done anything to fix it.

I could probably write a 20 page essay on how bad it was that he continued to let Antwon Blake get on the football field while also keeping Brandon Boykin on the bench. I could add another 3 pages on how it was stupid that Golden came in and showed himself very capable while Will Allen was injured and as soon as Allen was healthy Golden goes back to the bench so that Tomlin could play favorites. But I won't because I think it is obvious to most people just how poor those coaching decisions were.

What I do want to talk about however, is what bothers me so much about it. We can all get mad at clock management decisions and the personnel decisions. But what drives me absolutely insane is the fact that Tomlin just flat out refuses to acknowledge that he is doing something wrong. There were countless times I can remember media asking him about clock management or Blake or whatever and he either refused to answer or said he wouldn't change anything. If it was just bluster in front of the media I would be annoyed but ok, whatever. The problem is that he was being honest. He really didn't change anything. It took him forever to finally start limited Blakes playing time.

And I can't remember exactly which game it was but we had a game where the refs didn't put time back on the clock and nobody noticed. It could have cost us the game but luckily we ended up winning. When Tomlin was asked about it afterwards he said it didn't bother him and he wasn't worried about. So he isn't worried about the fact that we almost lost a game because nobody on our sidelines noticed a clock discrepancy? Inexcusable.


Anyway, it may not be the popular opinion but I have reviewed my thoughts and re-checked them and had discussions with dozens of people and nothing has changed my mind. I think there were a couple of games this season you can almost squarely put the losses on Tomlins shoulders whether it be through clock management or refusing to bench Antwon Blake. So you can credit him for getting us to the playoffs, but you can also credit him for most likely keeping us from having a good enough record to have a home game in those playoffs.

I like Tomlin as our HC and am certainly not on any "fire Tomlin" bandwagon, but he has a lot of improving to do before I would ever mistake him for a great head coach. I think he is a great motivator, and a solid HC.

[Mojouw]

Haven't been active for awhile so I may be a bit behind.

My grade on Tomlin for this year would be around a C+.

We should always have this conversation with the caveat that we just don't know everything so it is hard to assign blame or credit from an outside perspective. We can only judge what we directly see. Anyway....

Positives

Tomlin is a great motivator and gets this team to buy into the next man up mentality. It is hard to really put a grade on something like this but the guys seem to love playing for him and he has their respect. I have no question Tomlin loves his guys, the city, the team and the game of football. Despite the injuries and adversity we made it to the playoffs and as I said, he had this team believing they could do it no matter who was out.

Negatives

He again continued to show some frightening inconsistencies with clock management. You would think he would have someone on the sideline helping him with the task after he has screwed it up so many times but he still hasn't done anything to fix it.

I could probably write a 20 page essay on how bad it was that he continued to let Antwon Blake get on the football field while also keeping Brandon Boykin on the bench. I could add another 3 pages on how it was stupid that Golden came in and showed himself very capable while Will Allen was injured and as soon as Allen was healthy Golden goes back to the bench so that Tomlin could play favorites. But I won't because I think it is obvious to most people just how poor those coaching decisions were.

What I do want to talk about however, is what bothers me so much about it. We can all get mad at clock management decisions and the personnel decisions. But what drives me absolutely insane is the fact that Tomlin just flat out refuses to acknowledge that he is doing something wrong. There were countless times I can remember media asking him about clock management or Blake or whatever and he either refused to answer or said he wouldn't change anything. If it was just bluster in front of the media I would be annoyed but ok, whatever. The problem is that he was being honest. He really didn't change anything. It took him forever to finally start limited Blakes playing time.

And I can't remember exactly which game it was but we had a game where the refs didn't put time back on the clock and nobody noticed. It could have cost us the game but luckily we ended up winning. When Tomlin was asked about it afterwards he said it didn't bother him and he wasn't worried about. So he isn't worried about the fact that we almost lost a game because nobody on our sidelines noticed a clock discrepancy? Inexcusable.


Anyway, it may not be the popular opinion but I have reviewed my thoughts and re-checked them and had discussions with dozens of people and nothing has changed my mind. I think there were a couple of games this season you can almost squarely put the losses on Tomlins shoulders whether it be through clock management or refusing to bench Antwon Blake. So you can credit him for getting us to the playoffs, but you can also credit him for most likely keeping us from having a good enough record to have a home game in those playoffs.

I like Tomlin as our HC and am certainly not on any "fire Tomlin" bandwagon, but he has a lot of improving to do before I would ever mistake him for a great head coach. I think he is a great motivator, and a solid HC.

Solid analysis. But it is all hinging on whether or not the comments by coaches and players to the media are anywhere within shouting distance of the truth. I suspect they are not. I suspect that even if in private the coaching staff was meting out blame for losing those 18 seconds in San Diego, no one is coping to it in public. Same with all the other issues.

While this doesn't excuse Tomlin, it sort of warps the ability of fans to really analyze these kind of coaching decisions. There is too much we don't know:
1. What member(s) of the coaching staff is in charge of clock management?
2. What is Tomlin's role in calling timeouts and getting plays in from the sideline?
3. Who sets the personnel groupings on defense? On offense? Does Tomlin have final say? If so, did he over rule Lake and Butler with regards to Boykin, Blake, Golden, and Allen? Alternatively, were all coaches on the same page with the playing time allotment? If so, why?
4. How independent are coordinators calls on gameday? Does Haley run some of his most Haley-ish stuff past Tomlin or does he just have green light to call pretty much anything?

I could go on. But I realize we will never know the answers to these and many other questions. It makes it hard to really get at the impact of coaches and their decisions for the Steelers or any other team.

[Cyphon25]

Solid analysis. But it is all hinging on whether or not the comments by coaches and players to the media are anywhere within shouting distance of the truth. I suspect they are not. I suspect that even if in private the coaching staff was meting out blame for losing those 18 seconds in San Diego, no one is coping to it in public. Same with all the other issues.

While this doesn't excuse Tomlin, it sort of warps the ability of fans to really analyze these kind of coaching decisions. There is too much we don't know:
1. What member(s) of the coaching staff is in charge of clock management?
2. What is Tomlin's role in calling timeouts and getting plays in from the sideline?
3. Who sets the personnel groupings on defense? On offense? Does Tomlin have final say? If so, did he over rule Lake and Butler with regards to Boykin, Blake, Golden, and Allen? Alternatively, were all coaches on the same page with the playing time allotment? If so, why?
4. How independent are coordinators calls on gameday? Does Haley run some of his most Haley-ish stuff past Tomlin or does he just have green light to call pretty much anything?

I could go on. But I realize we will never know the answers to these and many other questions. It makes it hard to really get at the impact of coaches and their decisions for the Steelers or any other team.

All good questions and points. It is why I always like to put the caveat out there of us not knowing everything. Although I think it is safe to assume Tomlin has final say in all lineup decisions. If you take that out of his job description I think it becomes a very serious question of what he actually does lol. I don't mean that as an insult, but we know Haley and Ben run the offense and Butler probably does most of the defensive play calling with Tomlin giving his input on things. So if Tomlin doesn't set the lineup what would his job description be?

I guess a bigger question may be what amount of power Rooney gives Tomlin. Let's look at it 2 ways:

It is either Tomlins choice to play Blake and bench Boykin or it is Lake/Butler making the choice. So it is either bad of Tomlin for making the choice or bad of Tomlin to not fire Lake after the season. Unless of course the Rooney's won't allow it. I can almost guarantee they wouldn't allow him to get rid of Butler because they have been promising him the job for years. So that of course, wouldn't fall on Tomlin.

I guess my point is, the most likely scenario has to be on Tomlin so that is where I tend to lean. Again with the caveat that I/we don't know everything being on the outside looking in.

[zulater]

Haven't been active for awhile so I may be a bit behind.

My grade on Tomlin for this year would be around a C+.

We should always have this conversation with the caveat that we just don't know everything so it is hard to assign blame or credit from an outside perspective. We can only judge what we directly see. Anyway....

Positives

Tomlin is a great motivator and gets this team to buy into the next man up mentality. It is hard to really put a grade on something like this but the guys seem to love playing for him and he has their respect. I have no question Tomlin loves his guys, the city, the team and the game of football. Despite the injuries and adversity we made it to the playoffs and as I said, he had this team believing they could do it no matter who was out.

Negatives

He again continued to show some frightening inconsistencies with clock management. You would think he would have someone on the sideline helping him with the task after he has screwed it up so many times but he still hasn't done anything to fix it.

I could probably write a 20 page essay on how bad it was that he continued to let Antwon Blake get on the football field while also keeping Brandon Boykin on the bench. I could add another 3 pages on how it was stupid that Golden came in and showed himself very capable while Will Allen was injured and as soon as Allen was healthy Golden goes back to the bench so that Tomlin could play favorites. But I won't because I think it is obvious to most people just how poor those coaching decisions were.

What I do want to talk about however, is what bothers me so much about it. We can all get mad at clock management decisions and the personnel decisions. But what drives me absolutely insane is the fact that Tomlin just flat out refuses to acknowledge that he is doing something wrong. There were countless times I can remember media asking him about clock management or Blake or whatever and he either refused to answer or said he wouldn't change anything. If it was just bluster in front of the media I would be annoyed but ok, whatever. The problem is that he was being honest. He really didn't change anything. It took him forever to finally start limited Blakes playing time.

And I can't remember exactly which game it was but we had a game where the refs didn't put time back on the clock and nobody noticed. It could have cost us the game but luckily we ended up winning. When Tomlin was asked about it afterwards he said it didn't bother him and he wasn't worried about. So he isn't worried about the fact that we almost lost a game because nobody on our sidelines noticed a clock discrepancy? Inexcusable.


Anyway, it may not be the popular opinion but I have reviewed my thoughts and re-checked them and had discussions with dozens of people and nothing has changed my mind. I think there were a couple of games this season you can almost squarely put the losses on Tomlins shoulders whether it be through clock management or refusing to bench Antwon Blake. So you can credit him for getting us to the playoffs, but you can also credit him for most likely keeping us from having a good enough record to have a home game in those playoffs.

I like Tomlin as our HC and am certainly not on any "fire Tomlin" bandwagon, but he has a lot of improving to do before I would ever mistake him for a great head coach. I think he is a great motivator, and a solid HC.

I get your reasoning, but in defense of my own grade I have to ask if Tomlin was only a C+ last season who among his peers had an A or B grade for last season? I suppose you could say I graded somewhat on a curb. I look around the league and I'm seeing other "top tier" head coaches making as egregious clock management decisions and personel moves as Tomlin. Just to give you a few of the top of my head examples. Bill Bellichick coached the end of this season as bad as anyone in my recent memory. If you were to write a manual on how to give away the one seed to the team who's building you've historically had the least success in he aced the test! :doh:

And then take Ron Rivera in the Super Bowl. How the hell do you punt away the ball with just over two minutes left with a 14 point deficit? Yeah I know it was 4th and forever, but a personal foul by the defense, a defensive hold or pass interference and you've got yourself a new set of downs.

I could go on and nit pick every name coach in the league, but for brevity's sake I think the point's been made.

Perhaps it's just a down time for NFL head coaches? Or maybe our selective memory forgets and forgives the old time coaches their transgressions?

Anyway bottom line I respect the argument you laid out, but I still think when grading a coach you have to first and foremost look at the end result relative to roster, injuries, and schedule, so therefore I will stay with my B+ for Tomlin.

[Cyphon25]

I get your reasoning, but in defense of my own grade I have to ask if Tomlin was only a C+ last season who among his peers had an A or B grade for last season? I suppose you could say I graded somewhat on a curb. I look around the league and I'm seeing other "top tier" head coaches making as egregious clock management decisions and personel moves as Tomlin. Just to give you a few of the top of my head examples. Bill Bellichick coached the end of this season as bad as anyone in my recent memory. If you were to write a manual on how to give away the one seed to the team who's building you've historically had the least success in he aced the test! :doh:

And then take Ron Rivera in the Super Bowl. How the hell do you punt away the ball with just over two minutes left with a 14 point deficit? Yeah I know it was 4th and forever, but a personal foul by the defense, a defensive hold or pass interference and you've got yourself a new set of downs.

I could go on and nit pick every name coach in the league, but for brevity's sake I think the point's been made.

Perhaps it's just a down time for NFL head coaches? Or maybe our selective memory forgets and forgives the old time coaches their transgressions?

Anyway bottom line I respect the argument you laid out, but I still think when grading a coach you have to first and foremost look at the end result relative to roster, injuries, and schedule, so therefore I will stay with my B+ for Tomlin.

Valid points. I can't really argue against them because I don't follow those coaches as closely as Tomlin and it wouldn't be fair to judge them that way. All I will say as far as Bellichick goes is that he is arguably the greatest HC of all-time and I would take him in a heartbeat as the HC of a football team I was the head of. Is he flawless? No. But if he is your standard to judge by, I don't think Tomlin is even close. My main point is though, when Bellichick makes mistakes it is easy to forgive because his track record is tremendous.

And some people will want to argue that Tomlin should get that same leeway for his success but again, it isn't even close. To start with (and I know people hate this argument but it is 100% true regardless of how people feel about it), Tomlin inherited a great team. Yes they underperformed the season before but that doesn't mean they still weren't Hampton, Polamalu, Harrison, Roethlisberger, Ward, etc. That is why I credit him for being a great motivator. He made great players play to their potential. But the team was already in place.

The other argument people like to use in defense of Tomlin is that he never had a losing season. One of my least favorite arguments I have ever heard. Mainly because a non-losing season still isn't necessarily a winning season. When you have a franchise QB the calibre of Ben it should be a minimum of playoffs every season. Doesn't have to be a SB because that is unrealistic (unless you are Bellichick and the Patriots of course lol), but it should be a minimum of playoffs.

Anyway, I don't want to get too far off of the main topic. My main points were:

1. I don't get to see every coach as in-depth as I do Tomlin. So I may very well have given Rivera a C+ as well if I was a Panthers fan.

2. A coach like Bellichick gets graded on a different curve because his success is basically unrivaled. So he isn't good to use as a standard for measuring other coaches. They will all fall short.

[Mojouw]

Valid points. I can't really argue against them because I don't follow those coaches as closely as Tomlin and it wouldn't be fair to judge them that way. All I will say as far as Bellichick goes is that he is arguably the greatest HC of all-time and I would take him in a heartbeat as the HC of a football team I was the head of. Is he flawless? No. But if he is your standard to judge by, I don't think Tomlin is even close. My main point is though, when Bellichick makes mistakes it is easy to forgive because his track record is tremendous.

And some people will want to argue that Tomlin should get that same leeway for his success but again, it isn't even close. To start with (and I know people hate this argument but it is 100% true regardless of how people feel about it), Tomlin inherited a great team. Yes they underperformed the season before but that doesn't mean they still weren't Hampton, Polamalu, Harrison, Roethlisberger, Ward, etc. That is why I credit him for being a great motivator. He made great players play to their potential. But the team was already in place.

The other argument people like to use in defense of Tomlin is that he never had a losing season. One of my least favorite arguments I have ever heard. Mainly because a non-losing season still isn't necessarily a winning season. When you have a franchise QB the calibre of Ben it should be a minimum of playoffs every season. Doesn't have to be a SB because that is unrealistic (unless you are Bellichick and the Patriots of course lol), but it should be a minimum of playoffs.

Anyway, I don't want to get too far off of the main topic. My main points were:

1. I don't get to see every coach as in-depth as I do Tomlin. So I may very well have given Rivera a C+ as well if I was a Panthers fan.

2. A coach like Bellichick gets graded on a different curve because his success is basically unrivaled. So he isn't good to use as a standard for measuring other coaches. They will all fall short.

Other than Montana, Manning, and Brady, almost no franchise, ever, has managed to make the playoffs every year of a "Franchise" QB's tenure. It is the standard we expect as fans, but is almost totally unrealistic, since it basically never happens.

It gets really hard to compare the coaches because there are different "types":
1. Master Strategist - Bellichick and others who really call alot of the plays and put a big imprint on the gameplan week to week
2. One side only - Rex Ryan with the defense and McCarthy with the offense. Coaches who are really dependent on a coordinator to handle 50% of the team.
3. CEO/Manager - this is Tomlin's style.

[Cyphon25]

Other than Montana, Manning, and Brady, almost no franchise, ever, has managed to make the playoffs every year of a "Franchise" QB's tenure. It is the standard we expect as fans, but is almost totally unrealistic, since it basically never happens.

It is the standard the Steelers expect as well though, and they would never tell you differently. That being said, my main point is that not having a losing season isn't really a good argument to defend Tomlin. If you are out of the playoffs you lost enough to not be relevant in the end. Not going to the playoffs at 4-12 ultimately isn't any different than not going at 9-7.

[Mojouw]

It is the standard the Steelers expect as well though, and they would never tell you differently. That being said, my main point is that not having a losing season isn't really a good argument to defend Tomlin. If you are out of the playoffs you lost enough to not be relevant in the end. Not going to the playoffs at 4-12 ultimately isn't any different than not going at 9-7.

Those things are totally different. I mean one could mean you are the Cleveland Browns and the other could mean you are a bit better injury luck away from a deep playoff run.

[Cyphon25]

Those things are totally different. I mean one could mean you are the Cleveland Browns and the other could mean you are a bit better injury luck away from a deep playoff run.

They are not totally different to our discussion. We are talking about how relevant it is that Tomlin has never had a losing season. Missing the playoffs is a losing season. Record isn't really relevant in the end.

Look at it this way, when we don't make the playoffs do you feel like we had a good season? I know I never do.

[fansince'76]

It is the standard the Steelers expect as well though, and they would never tell you differently. That being said, my main point is that not having a losing season isn't really a good argument to defend Tomlin. If you are out of the playoffs you lost enough to not be relevant in the end. Not going to the playoffs at 4-12 ultimately isn't any different than not going at 9-7.

So, a 4-12 finish where a team is basically playing for the draft by Halloween is no different than being eliminated from the playoffs during the final game being played on the very last day of the regular season b (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24391753/missed-call-in-chiefschargers-game-affected-steelers-playoff-chances)ecause of an officiating gaffe, (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24391753/missed-call-in-chiefschargers-game-affected-steelers-playoff-chances) particularly in a hyper-competitive division like the AFC North where 2, and quite often, 3 of the teams in it wind up with 10+ wins?

Sorry, but I beg to differ.

[polamalubeast]

In 2013, if Aaron Rodgers would have been healthy for the game against the Steelers, very likely, the Steelers would have had a losing season in 2013.Also, in the second half of the 2012 season and the first half of the 2013 season, the Steelers have been 5-11, it's not a losing season, but it costed 2 seasons.

Tomlin is a good coach, and he has accomplished good thing here but not having a losing season is not an accomplishment since 2 seasons have been 8-8.

It's always playoffs or bust.

[fansince'76]

...and if Roethlisberger isn't landed on by Hali and Houston in KC and very visibly hobbled for the rest of the season, chances are we don't finish 2-5 over the last 7 games of 2012. The only reason he continued to play that year is because Roethlisberger at 60% was still a better option than Batch and Leftwich.

2012 was also (thankfully) the final year of the "Triumvirate of Shit" at RB (SpinandFall, Dwyer, Redman).

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts...

[Cyphon25]

So, a 4-12 finish where a team is basically playing for the draft by Halloween is no different than being eliminated from the playoffs during the final game being played on the very last day of the regular season b (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24391753/missed-call-in-chiefschargers-game-affected-steelers-playoff-chances)ecause of an officiating gaffe, (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24391753/missed-call-in-chiefschargers-game-affected-steelers-playoff-chances) particularly in a hyper-competitive division like the AFC North where 2, and quite often, 3 of the teams in it wind up with 10+ wins?

Sorry, but I beg to differ.

I think you are missing the overall context of the point. Obviously records effect draft position and what not. I am talking about using it in context to defend Mike Tomlin as if it means something. To put it another way, if Tomlin had 10 straight 8-8 or 9-7 seasons he still has never had a losing season but would he be considered a good or successful head coach? Not a chance. So the argument of him never losing a season isn't really relevant in our context.

[zulater]

...and if Roethlisberger isn't landed on by Hali and Houston in KC and very visibly hobbled for the rest of the season, chances are we don't finish 2-5 over the last 7 games of 2012. The only reason he continued to play that year is because Roethlisberger at 60% was still a better option than Batch and Leftwich.

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts...

Great point. I'll give you one more. Around midseason you could have made the argument the Steelers were playing about as well as anyone in the league. But then Antonio Brown got a high ankle sprain against the Giants, and then Ben got hurt the following game against the Chiefs. I think there was definitely some cause and effect there. Because AB the passing game lost it's rhythm and Ben got frustrated when he continually couldn't find any open targets and held the ball too long and got skewered. I remember being laughed at by a select few when I brought that up at the time, my argument being that AB not Mike Wallace was the straw that stirred the drink among the "young money" receiving core. And even after Antonio came back he struggled with the ankle some and really didn't start looking like himself again until the final couple games.

Bottom line is that team had potential but got derailed due to injuries to a couple key players.

[fansince'76]

I think you are missing the overall context of the point. Obviously records effect draft position and what not. I am talking about using it in context to defend Mike Tomlin as if it means something. To put it another way, if Tomlin had 10 straight 8-8 or 9-7 seasons he still has never had a losing season but would he be considered a good or successful head coach? Not a chance. So the argument of him never losing a season isn't really relevant in our context.


Except he hasn't...

[polamalubeast]

I do not think that the 2012 steelers were good.

The defense was old, the running game was awful, our RB and our WR had too many fumbles and the situation of Mike Wallace was a big distraction late in the season.

[fansince'76]

Great point. I'll give you one more. Around midseason you could have made the argument the Steelers were playing about as well as anyone in the league. But then Antonio Brown got a high ankle sprain against the Giants, and then Ben got hurt the following game against the Chiefs. I think there was definitely some cause and effect there. Because AB the passing game lost it's rhythm and Ben got frustrated when he continually couldn't find any open targets and held the ball too long and got skewered. I remember being laughed at by a select few when I brought that up at the time, my argument being that AB not Mike Wallace was the straw that stirred the drink among the "young money" receiving core. And even after Antonio came back he struggled with the ankle some and really didn't start looking like himself again until the final couple games.

Bottom line is that team had potential but got derailed due to injuries to a couple key players.

Not to mention the OL was still being coached like crap and playing like crap and the running game wasn't good enough to keep opposing defenses from teeing off on Roethlisberger.

[zulater]

Just to play devils advocate, I wonder if you could switch the Steelers with the Patriots as far as divisions go if Tomlin ever would have missed the playoffs even once?

Those 6 almost tap in putts every season sure helps build up your record and goes a long way to insuring a bye in the playoffs. Seriously think about it. Between the Jets, Dolphins and Bills each of them are pretty much at the start-middle- or end of a perpetual "3 year plan" . Quick name all the quality qb's besides Brady that have played in the AFC least in the past 15 years? Same goes for head coaches.

Look I'm not saying the Patriots are crap or that the Steelers are great, but these things factor in. I honestly think if you put Tomlin and his Steelers in the AFC least these past 9 seasons the playoff misses would be few if any.

[Cyphon25]

Just to play devils advocate, I wonder if you could switch the Steelers with the Patriots as far as divisions go if Tomlin ever would have missed the playoffs even once?

Those 6 almost tap in putts every season sure helps build up your record and goes a long way to insuring a bye in the playoffs. Seriously think about it. Between the Jets, Dolphins and Bills each of them are pretty much at the start-middle- or end of a "3 year plan" every single season. Quick name all the quality qb's besides Brady that have played in the AFC least in the past 15 years? Same goes for head coaches.

Look I'm not saying the Patriots are crap or that the Steelers are great, but these things factor in. I honestly think if you put Tomlin and his Steelers in the AFC least these past 9 seasons the playoff misses would be few if any.

Look at our record vs opponents we should beat and you will find your answer.

Those 6 tap in putts might become bogies if Tomlin is coaching the Pats.

[zulater]

Look at our record vs opponents we should beat and you will find your answer.

Those 6 tap in putts might become bogies if Tomlin is coaching the Pats.

I doubt it. I know we occasionally play down to lesser teams, but I think it's overstated.Last year for example we were 6-2 against sub .500 teams. (end of season record) The only two losses coming against the Ravens, one of which specifically due to a kicker.

Also when you butt heads with teams like the Ravens and Bengals it tends to wear you down through a season. I have zero doubt the Steelers would have fared better if you could magically place them in the AFC east these past 9 years.

[zulater]

Great point. I'll give you one more. Around midseason you could have made the argument the Steelers were playing about as well as anyone in the league. But then Antonio Brown got a high ankle sprain against the Giants, and then Ben got hurt the following game against the Chiefs. I think there was definitely some cause and effect there. Because AB the passing game lost it's rhythm and Ben got frustrated when he continually couldn't find any open targets and held the ball too long and got skewered. I remember being laughed at by a select few when I brought that up at the time, my argument being that AB not Mike Wallace was the straw that stirred the drink among the "young money" receiving core. And even after Antonio came back he struggled with the ankle some and really didn't start looking like himself again until the final couple games.

Bottom line is that team had potential but got derailed due to injuries to a couple key players.

Got my seasons mixed up here! :doh: Sorry I was thinking the year before. 13 was the season we buried ourselves early with the 0-4 start. We still rallied to finish 8-8 and only missed the playoffs by a missed Chief chip shot and a blown officiating call that didn't give them another kick as they should have gotten.

Anyway to me if you start a season 0-4 and don't lose the team that says something about the team and the coach. Yeah that team had shortcomings, but they finished 8-4 in the last 12. Which while not good enough obviously still shows overall character.

Again if you want to compare coaches look at how the Ravens continued to derail throughout the 15 season when they met a little adversity early. And they were sinking the Titanic long before Flacco went down.

[Cyphon25]

I doubt it. I know we occasionally play down to lesser teams, but I think it's overstated.

I an pretty sure it isn't. The numbers were talked about just this season and they are pretty bad. I just can't remember exactly what they are.

I am not saying we wouldn't win the East, I just don't think you should take it for granted we would win it because they are easy teams.

[zulater]

For what it's worth under Tomlin against teams that finished the season below .500 the Steelers are 48-21 or a 695 win percentage. Against teams that finished .500 or better they're 44-31 which translates into a 611 win percent..

[Cyphon25]

For what it's worth under Tomlin against teams that finished the season below .500 the Steelers are 48-21. Against teams that finished .500 or better they're 44-31.

Is there a record for teams we were favored against? I can't remember what the criteria was but I know we had a losing record for whatever specifically they were talking about.

[zulater]

Is there a record for teams we were favored against? I can't remember what the criteria was but I know we had a losing record for whatever specifically they were talking about.

I think where the falloff has been has been against woefully terrible teams. Of those 21 losses to teams under .500 I'd wager half came against teams that won 4 or less games. I think we have more of those quality than any tram in recent memory. I can't explain it. But don't fear it either. Sometimes stuff happens that doesn't make much sense.

[zulater]

Here's the losses that stick out. This year of course two losses to the 5-11 Ravens. So of course we accounted for 40% of their wins. Last year we lost to the 2-14 Bucs and the 4-12 Jets. The 5-10-1 Vikings and the 4-12 Raiders in 13. The again 4-12 Raiders, and 5-11 Browns in 12 (also lost to the 6-10 Titans). There were none of these sort of losses in 07, 08, 10 or 2011. But where it all started and worst ever cases of it was in 09 when a promising season that started 6-2 embarked on an inexplicable 5 game losing streak that completely derailed the season. In this losing streak the Steelers lost to such luminaries as the 5-11 Raiders, the 4-12 Chiefs, and the 5-11 Browns. The Steelers did win their final 3 games that year to finish 9-7. But the 3 aforementioned losses combined with an early season loss to the 7-9 Bears did that season in.

What stands out to memory for me is that we lost at least 2 of those games and possibly 3 to quirks and special teams gaffes. The Chiefs game we dominated statistically but we gave up a ko ret for a TD and were minus 3 in turnovers so our dominance at the LOS went to waste. The loss to the Raiders might have even been more frustrating. Can anyone forget the Janokowski fg that was clearly missed (it was a 3 point loss) only to have a huge sudden gust of wind blow the thing between the uprights? (and no he wasn't playing the wind on the kick as he admitted afterward) And then of course the Steelers seemed to have the game won late when a ridiculous series of personal fouls moved the Raiders into a game winning TD. On the one play Ryan Mundy (the Shmarko Thomas of his day) on a 4th down fail that essentially would have ended the game with the Steelers winning, Mundy goes all head hunter on a Raider receiver a good couple seconds after the ball had fallen incomplete, and the Raiders with a new set of downs and another killer Steeler penalty put the game away in the closing seconds. It was just that sort of year! :frusty:

Anyway I'm not sure if that clarifies the discussion any or if it muddies it up more? But there it is all the same.

[Cyphon25]

Here's the losses that stick out. This year of course two losses to the 5-11 Ravens. So of course we accounted for 40% of their wins. Last year we lost to the 2-14 Bucs and the 4-12 Jets. The 5-10-1 Vikings and the 4-12 Raiders in 13. The again 4-12 Raiders, and 5-11 Browns in 12 (also lost to the 6-10 Titans). There were none of these sort of losses in 07, 08, 10 or 2011. But where it all started and worst ever cases of it was in 09 when a promising season that started 6-2 embarked on an inexplicable 5 game losing streak that completely derailed the season. In this losing streak the Steelers lost to such luminaries as the 5-11 Raiders, the 4-12 Chiefs, and the 5-11 Browns. The Steelers did win their final 3 games that year to finish 9-7. But the 3 aforementioned losses combined with an early season loss to the 7-9 Bears did that season in.

What stands out to memory for me is that we lost at least 2 of those games and possibly 3 to quirks and special teams gaffes. The Chiefs game we dominated statistically but we gave up a ko ret for a TD and were minus 3 in turnovers so our dominance at the LOS went to waste. The loss to the Raiders might have even been more frustrating. Can anyone forget the Janokowski fg that was clearly missed (it was a 3 point loss) only to have a huge sudden gust of wind blow the thing between the uprights? (and no he wasn't playing the wind on the kick as he admitted afterward) And then of course the Steelers seemed to have the game won late when a ridiculous series of personal fouls moved the Raiders into a game winning TD. On the one play Ryan Mundy (the Shmarko Thomas of his day) on a 4th down fail that essentially would have ended the game with the Steelers winning, Mundy goes all head hunter on a Raider receiver a good couple seconds after the ball had fallen incomplete, and the Raiders with a new set of downs and another killer Steeler penalty put the game away in the closing seconds. It was just that sort of year! :frusty:

Anyway I'm not sure if that clarifies the discussion any or if it muddies it up more? But there it is all the same.

So he didn't get a lot of those kind of losses when he still had lots of the "Cowher" team? I can't remember when a lot of those players started to drop off. Interesting if those losses go hand in hand with the his teams coming to fruition as the older players moved on. Obviously there are still some of the old guard sprinkled in.

[zulater]

So he didn't get a lot of those kind of losses when he still had lots of the "Cowher" team? I can't remember when a lot of those players started to drop off. Interesting if those losses go hand in hand with the his teams coming to fruition as the older players moved on. Obviously there are still some of the old guard sprinkled in.

He had plenty of the so called "Cowher players on the 09 team. I would guesstimate close to 3/4 of that roster came to the team before Tomlin.


Personally I've never bought into the Cowher team logic for any year after 07. Once a coach is a year removed from a team it's no longer his baby.

For example if I wanted to diminish Cowher I could say he won with Noll's players his first 6 years. And when guys like Rod Woodson, Neil O'Dummy, Dirt Dawson, Carnell Lake and Gregg Lloyd's play fell off or they left and Cowher had to live by his own players they went on and missed the playoffs 3 straight years.

But that dismisses the tweaks and nuance that Cowher brought to the team. Noll had a great base of players but for some reason he wasn't reaching them anymore. Cowher was a voice of fresh air that was needed and brought out the best in the team.

Similarly the 08 team was greatly aided by the influx of young talent Tomlin brought in Lawrence Timmons and LaMarr Woodley ( he was really good until he blew out his hamstring in 11) and to a lesser extent William Gay. Also while James Harrison was on the roster prior to Tomlin's arrival you can't call him Cowher's player. Or at least I would advice you not to in front of Harrison. Let's not forget Cowher had Harrison languishing on the bench for the entirety of their career's coinciding. And don't give me it was just because Joey Porter was more proven at the time, because he could have easily given him the LOLB job over the forgettable Clark Haggans. Imagine if you will how dynamic our pass rush could have been in Cowher's last several years if he had Deebo and Peezy as bookend rush lb's. It could have been better than Gregg Lloyd and Kevin Greene circa 94-95.

So to me at least starting with 2008 it has been Tomlin's team. In the good seasons and the not so good ones.

[teegre]

Is there a record for teams we were favored against? I can't remember what the criteria was but I know we had a losing record for whatever specifically they were talking about.

There was a lengthy discussion about this, when Mark Kaloby posted that Tomlin had lost to teams with losing records.

The concensus/conclusion was that we aren't exactly sure how Kaloby came up with those numbers. More importantly, I posted* a list of every team's record against losing teams this year, and the Steelers were on par with every other team in the league.

*(I'm not sure exactly how to use the search function.)

[tube517]

There was a lengthy discussion about this, when Mark Kaloby posted that Tomlin had lost to teams with losing records.

The concensus/conclusion was that we aren't exactly sure how Kaloby came up with those numbers. More importantly, I posted* a list of every team's record against losing teams this year, and the Steelers were on par with every other team in the league.

*(I'm not sure exactly how to use the search function.)

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/24483-Another-Tomlin-loss-to-a-1-5-type-team?p=530975&viewfull=1#post530975

Gotta sift through some hippo farts and cool shades.

[teegre]

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/24483-Another-Tomlin-loss-to-a-1-5-type-team?p=530975&viewfull=1#post530975

Gotta sift through some hippo farts and cool shades.

Seriously... thank you.

I'm sort of a luddite when it comes to technology.

[fansince'76]

Personally I've never bought into the Cowher team logic for any year after 07. Once a coach is a year removed from a team it's no longer his baby...

...So to me at least starting with 2008 it has been Tomlin's team. In the good seasons and the not so good ones.

:iagree:

Not to mention that arguably the most valuable player on the team from 2007 to about 2012 or so was Harrison, and all he did when Cowher was still around was rot on the bench behind Porter.

Therefore, I personally don't consider Harrison to be a "Cowher guy."

And as far as someone stubbornly playing favorites while better players stagnated on the bench, Cowher was far more guilty of that transgression than Tomlin has ever been, IMO.

There were "Cowher's guys" (Porter, Ward, Polamalu) and then there was "everyone else" (Ben, Ike, Harrison).

[Craic]

Now I know why I hate the offseason so much.

I end up having to agree with Zu in so many of his assessments. :chuckle:

[zulater]

:iagree:

Not to mention that arguably the most valuable player on the team from 2007 to about 2012 or so was Harrison, and all he did when Cowher was still around was rot on the bench behind Porter.

Therefore, I personally don't consider Harrison to be a "Cowher guy."

And as far as someone stubbornly playing favorites while better players stagnated on the bench, Cowher was far more guilty of that transgression than Tomlin has ever been, IMO.

There were "Cowher's guys" (Porter, Ward, Polamalu) and then there was "everyone else" (Ben, Ike, Harrison).

Neither does Harrison! I don;t remember the specifics of the interview but I remember the tenor of an interview with Harrison in which Cowher's name came into the discussion. It was easy to discern James doesn't hold Cowher in great regard, the sense being James should have been seeing more playing time a lot earlier than he did.And I think he's clearly correct. Because in the handful of starts Harrison was afforded in Cowher's reign due to injury or last minute ejection of someone his play always stood out in an exceptional manner. I don't know how or why you wouldn't have conspired to get 92 more playing time? :noidea:

[Cyphon25]

He had plenty of the so called "Cowher players on the 09 team. I would guesstimate close to 3/4 of that roster came to the team before Tomlin.

Well sure, teams have down/bad years. But the majority of the years you listed where they were beating who they should were the Cowher era players.


Personally I've never bought into the Cowher team logic for any year after 07. Once a coach is a year removed from a team it's no longer his baby.

For example if I wanted to diminish Cowher I could say he won with Noll's players his first 6 years. And when guys like Rod Woodson, Neil O'Dummy, Dirt Dawson, Carnell Lake and Gregg Lloyd's play fell off or they left and Cowher had to live by his own players they went on and missed the playoffs 3 straight years.

But that dismisses the tweaks and nuance that Cowher brought to the team. Noll had a great base of players but for some reason he wasn't reaching them anymore. Cowher was a voice of fresh air that was needed and brought out the best in the team.

There is really nothing to buy into. It is simply a fact. The statement is "Tomlin won with Cowhers players". If Cowher drafted and coached a player it is his player even 10 years later. And you could make the same argument for Cowher if you want, but it isn't relevant because I am not doing a comparison of Tomlin and Cowher. Side note, I think it is funny that another common defense of Tomlin from people is that he is the same/better than Cowher. Doesn't work with me because I don't compare the 2. I grade Tomlin on his own merits.

As for as dismissing nuances again, that didn't happen. I specifically clarified that I think Tomlin is a great motivator and he got Cowhers players to get up to win again. But it was still a Cowher made team.


So to me at least starting with 2008 it has been Tomlin's team. In the good seasons and the not so good ones.

We can debate the minutia of when you can officially call it one coaches team over the other but I would say it has to be close to when at least half the starting lineup is from the new coach. So no, the team was absolutely not Tomlins starting in 08. There is just no great way to make that argument. You can maybe give or take a couple of players from the halfway mark I set but it has to be close to that.

Right now it is Tomlins team and oddly enough he has been much better at getting offensive players than he has defensive. Kind of the opposite of Cowher lol.


Neither does Harrison! I don;t remember the specifics of the interview but I remember the tenor of an interview with Harrison in which Cowher's name came into the discussion. It was easy to discern James doesn't hold Cowher in great regard

If you are talking about the Gruden interview it wasn't really like that. I believe he said Cowher left him with determination and work ethic and he said he felt like Tomlin was one of the guys saying that he was so close in age to them.

Really the only one who got any true praise was Dick and James pretty much cried when he was brought up.

[Mojouw]

Dear Lord. Can we just let this myth die? If you actually take a look at the data, the Steelers start just as slow under Tomlin as they did under Cowher. Cowher lost to bad teams also. Every coach has and does. It is also crucial to discriminate between "eras". For the last 10 years or so the difference between a 4 win team and a 10 win team has not been the same as it was in 1995, 185, 1975, etc.

What was the 2014 Panthers record? What was their 2015 record? So if you lose to the 2014 version (basically the same team) does that count as a "bad loss"?

This debate makes me want to drive an icepick through my brain.

[Cyphon25]

Dear Lord. Can we just let this myth die? If you actually take a look at the data, the Steelers start just as slow under Tomlin as they did under Cowher. Cowher lost to bad teams also. Every coach has and does. It is also crucial to discriminate between "eras". For the last 10 years or so the difference between a 4 win team and a 10 win team has not been the same as it was in 1995, 185, 1975, etc.

What was the 2014 Panthers record? What was their 2015 record? So if you lose to the 2014 version (basically the same team) does that count as a "bad loss"?

This debate makes me want to drive an icepick through my brain.

It isn't really a myth. Zulater provided all of the examples. And again, what Cowher did isn't relevant because he isn't being graded or compared to Tomlin. This is all about Tomlin and his strengths and weaknesses as a coach. What Nolls and Cowhers strength and weaknesses were don't take away or add anything to Tomlins grade.

As for your Panthers example it would be yes, it counts as a bad loss depending on what their record was and if we were favored. Same team or not, if they are playing bad and you should beat them it is a bad loss. I don't know what their record was or if we even played them though.

[zulater]

Keith Butler B+. :lol: that's right I gave Tomlin, Haley and Butler all a B+. I struggled with what to give Butler. On one hand the defense improved in so many areas that I strongly considered giving him an A. More sacks, check, more forced turnovers, check, less points per game, check, better secondary play, uh uh, not really. And if you extend it to the playoffs the defense couldn't make the stop they needed to. They couldn't get Manning on the ground, they couldn't turn him over, and with the game on the line they couldn't get off the field and stop the inept Broncos offense from scoring the game winning td. So if you want to break it down I give him an A- for the season. Basically he had two really good DE's, two good ILB (when Shazier was healthy) one aged OLB who was above average, one pretty good strong safety and then a lot of question marks. Hopefully Dupre is headed in the right direction and God only knows where things are headed with Jarvis Jones. Bottom line what I'm trying to say is that Butler did very good given what he had to work with. What part he had in the Boykin ordeal, who the hell knows? But all in all he was playing with a very limited hand in the secondary and with the OLB's. So given the overall contribution of the defense to a fairly successful season I cant go lower than B+. But the loss to the Broncos and the defense's failure at the end of the game brings him down from an A, so we'll stay with our B+.

Looking forward to this coming season with a hopeful upgrade to the secondary and a bit more production from the OLB's to see what Keith is really made of.

[Cyphon25]

I do want to say this for Tomlin. You listen to his interview about Heath Miller and listen to when they ask him about the combine and he talks about finding players in airports and sharing cards with them and what not and you can't help but absolutely love how this guy feels about football and his players. I may bash a lot of what he does as a coach but as a human being who loves the game of football he gets an A++ in my book.

So often the NFL feels like big business or that it is only about advertisement and money but when you hear stuff like this from Tomlin it really can renew your spirit in the humanity of football. He flat out loves the game and I admire him for that.