Art Rooney II Says Pass Defense Needs To Be Main Focus In 2016 [Archive]

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 03:09 PM

He should just stop these end of the year things. He has no clue about football and he sounds foolish.

I'll never forget when he said the DB's had to be more "ball aware". That's some trick when they are 8 yards off the ball on 3rd and six.

Stay in the owners box and keep quiet, the way your Dad and Grandfather did before you.

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http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/4043779.jpg

IMO firing Arians cost this team at least one AFC title. Down year or two would have been worth it to have another chance at a SB title.

hawaiiansteeler

01-28-2016, 03:10 PM

He should just stop these end of the year things. He has no clue about football and he sounds foolish.

I'll never forget when he said the DB's had to be more "ball aware". That's some trick when they are 8 yards off the ball on 3rd and six.

Stay in the owners box and keep quiet, the way your Dad and Grandfather did before you.

have you gotten to where Art II is nothing but a two-bit lawyer yet who is only trying to re-live the 70s?

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 03:12 PM

Wonder if this will cause as much controversy and gnashing of teeth as when he said they needed to run the ball better?

He was wrong then too. Run game had nothing to do with eight blown 4th quarter leads in 2009.

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have you gotten to where Art II is nothing but a two-bit lawyer yet who is only trying to re-live the 70s?

No need, because anyone who follows this team knows that's what he is. He won the race to the egg.

At least he won something.

Mojouw

01-28-2016, 05:22 PM

there goes Art II meddling again...:stirthepot:

Exactly!

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He was wrong then too. Run game had nothing to do with eight blown 4th quarter leads in 2009.

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No need, because anyone who follows this team knows that's what he is. He won the race to the egg.

At least he won something.

My only point was that most people took his comment to run the ball more effectively as meaning to run the ball more often. That was never what he said. He simply stated the fact that the Steelers had been unable to consistently run the ball effectively in game situations that called for it. That was totally true. In subsequent seasons the team did begin to run the ball better in short yardage situations.

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 05:27 PM

He blamed the run game for not holding 4th quarter leads in 2009.

He was wrong.

Mojouw

01-28-2016, 05:34 PM

He blamed the run game for not holding 4th quarter leads in 2009.

He was wrong.

And being able to effectively run the ball with a lead late in games is just such a "game situation" that I was referencing. Obviously, there were multiple defensive collapses that season as well.

Like anything, it is never just one reason for something. But I don't know if I would be willing to go so far as to say that Art 2 was totally off-base in his statement.

teegre

01-28-2016, 05:46 PM

there goes Art II meddling again...:stirthepot:

Holy crap... I just had a realization.

Did the Professor used to go by "GoFor7" over at SF???

Art II meddling... lawyer... love for Arians... BINGO!!!

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 05:50 PM

And being able to effectively run the ball with a lead late in games is just such a "game situation" that I was referencing.

Steelers take the lead in Baltimore.

Next Ravens drive? Tying FG.

Steelers take the lead in Kansas City.

Next Chiefs drive? Touchdown.

Steelers take the lead vs. Raiders.

Next Raiders drive? Touchdown.

Steelers take the lead again.

Next Raiders drive? Touchdown.

Four drives, if they make ONE stop, in those four drives? They make the playoffs.

Can't protect them all day. The defense has to go on the field at some point.

Edman

01-28-2016, 05:55 PM

He blamed the run game for not holding 4th quarter leads in 2009.

He was wrong.

He was right.

The Defense was the main culprit, but the Offense constantly going 3 and out and inability to sustain drives or score points contributed to it as well. The Steelers had the absolute worst fourth quarter offense ever in those days. They couldn't answer the other team's surging momentum.

Collapses are a team effort. Famously, Houston blew a 32-point lead in the playoffs. The defense couldn't hold the lead of course, but what people don't pay attention to, is the Oilers Offense getting shut out and inability to put the game out of hand so Buffalo couldn't come back. One single answered touchdown, and that game is over.

It was how the Steelers escaped against the Broncos back in Week 15. The Steelers don't win that game if the Broncos score at any point in the second half.

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 06:02 PM

7th ranked offense.

9th in first downs on offense.

3rd in TOP.

Constantly going three and out?

:lol:

Mojouw

01-28-2016, 06:13 PM

Steelers take the lead in Baltimore.

Next Ravens drive? Tying FG.

Steelers take the lead in Kansas City.

Next Chiefs drive? Touchdown.

Steelers take the lead vs. Raiders.

Next Raiders drive? Touchdown.

Steelers take the lead again.

Next Raiders drive? Touchdown.

Four drives, if they make ONE stop, in those four drives? They make the playoffs.

Can't protect them all day. The defense has to go on the field at some point.

[/COLOR]

Once again you only quoted and responded to a portion of my post. Here is the rest "Obviously, there were multiple defensive collapses that season as well. Like anything, it is never just one reason for something. But I don't know if I would be willing to go so far as to say that Art 2 was totally off-base in his statement."

The defense had a problem holding leads that season and the offense had a problem putting games away. One of the many reasons for that was their inability to run in short yardage and what Tomlin and others have termed "4 minute offense" situations.

It was hotly debated here and on other Steelers forums what Art 2 meant by his comment. General consensus is that he simply meant that if it is 3rd and 1, an NFL team needs to have a credible threat that they can convert that by running the ball. The 2009 Steelers did not. How is this even still up for debate?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2009_splits.htm

There it is in glorious black and white - 3rd and 1-4 yards to go the 2009 Steelers rushed 26 times in that situation and converted 16 of them.

Sadly, it is something they have not actually improved that much on.

Edman

01-28-2016, 06:17 PM

Steelers take the lead in Baltimore.

Next Ravens drive? Tying FG.

Who dicked around for four quarters before deciding to play? It wasn't the Defense.

Steelers take the lead in Kansas City.

Next Chiefs drive? Touchdown.

Who gave up a opening drive kickoff and nursing a 17-14, throws a 94-yard interception return to Andy Studebaker, giving the Chiefs new life and deep within Steelers territory, where they tie the game up?

Steelers take the lead vs. Raiders.

Next Raiders drive? Touchdown.

Who is held scoreless by a terrible Raiders Defense in the third quarter, and only scored until the Raiders took the lead?

Four drives, if they make ONE stop, in those four drives? They make the playoffs.

They make one stop on Defense and learn to finish games on Offense, they're in the playoffs.

Can't protect them all day. The defense has to go on the field at some point.

Can't ask the Defense to hold teams down all game, the Offense has to score some points and do it's part at some point.

Complete team collapse done in 2009.

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7th ranked offense.

9th in first downs on offense.

3rd in TOP.

Constantly going three and out?

:lol:

Mediocre 368 points scored all season?

Held to six points by a terrible Cleveland Browns team on Thursday Night with the season on the line? Defense holds Cleveland to 13 points, but our great Offense can only manage SIX.

Ben one of the most sacked Quarterbacks yet again?

Barely converting 3rd and short?

Held scoreless by a terrible Raiders team in the third quarter?

Scoring 30 points only three times all season?

:lol:

Craic

01-28-2016, 06:25 PM

7th ranked offense.

9th in first downs on offense.

3rd in TOP.

Constantly going three and out?

:lol:

You seem to miss the concept of "Context."

They had 105 plays on first down in the fourth quarter of 2009. They had 50 plays on 3rd down in the fourth quarter of 2009. Moreover, right around 75 percent of the time, or 176 plays, they had over 7 yards to drive for a first down. On top of that, only 30 percent of their plays resulted in a first down, and most of those, (55 percent) were through the air.

The Steelers offense was not good in the 2nd and 4th quarters that year. Our defense was even worse. The concept, then, was to slow the game down, run the ball, eat up clock, and let the defense rest for a while. That's why the comment was "Run better" not "Run more," because at that point, they were average in the run game (average in Yards per attempt, average in 1st downs gained, and below average [22nd] in TDs by run).

Mojouw

01-28-2016, 06:32 PM

You seem to miss the concept of "Context."

They had 105 plays on first down in the fourth quarter of 2009. They had 50 plays on 3rd down in the fourth quarter of 2009. Moreover, right around 75 percent of the time, or 176 plays, they had over 7 yards to drive for a first down. On top of that, only 30 percent of their plays resulted in a first down, and most of those, (55 percent) were through the air.

The Steelers offense was not good in the 2nd and 4th quarters that year. Our defense was even worse. The concept, then, was to slow the game down, run the ball, eat up clock, and let the defense rest for a while. That's why the comment was "Run better" not "Run more," because at that point, they were average in the run game (average in Yards per attempt, average in 1st downs gained, and below average [22nd] in TDs by run).

Thank you. As always, a well laid out post.

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 06:51 PM

Who dicked around for four quarters before deciding to play?

They were playing with Dennis freaking Dixon FFS. What did you want? 30 points?

Hey look, everyone got what they wanted: Evil Bruce Arians was shown the door, Ben was put in the corner and spanked by his boss and told to change, and Art II hired a Yinzer to run the offense.

I look forward to our game next week.

Oh wait.....

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The concept, then, was to slow the game down, run the ball, eat up clock, and let the defense rest for a while.

Very good. Which is exactly why you can't, look at total points scored.

Like I posted, Haley gets MORE credit, for garbage time yards/points in losses, than what BA did in winning AFC titles and a Super Bowl ring.

And that's embarrassing.

86WARD

01-28-2016, 06:57 PM

Craic

01-28-2016, 07:01 PM

They were playing with Dennis freaking Dixon FFS. What did you want? 30 points?

Hey look, everyone got what they wanted: Evil Bruce Arians was shown the door, Ben was put in the corner and spanked by his boss and told to change, and Art II hired a Yinzer to run the offense.

I look forward to our game next week.

Oh wait.....[/COLOR]

Typical. Forget our number 1 receiver and running back was out, as was our number 2 running back. Forget about our probowl center being out for the year. God forbid we don't make the AFCCG after all the adversity this team faced this year in injury and changeover at the DC position. Yep, it had to be because Art II hired a Yinzer. Of course, as far as Yinzer's are concerned, Arians went to highschool in York, PA. But I guess he got booted because that's not close enough to Pittsburgh. Right?

Look, I had very little problems with Arians. Go check the threads from those days and you'll find me complaining very little. But your post here is pretty ridiculous, to be honest.

Very good. Which is exactly why you can't, look at total points scored.

Like I posted, Haley gets MORE credit, for garbage time yards/points in losses, than what BA did in winning AFC titles and a Super Bowl ring.

And that's embarrassing. [/I][/COLOR]

Um . . . No.

Again, I see you struggle with context. Of course, on this one I could have been clearer. Rooney demanded they run the ball more efficiently the following year, part of which would be to protect the lead and give the defense a breather.

BA had a problem getting Ben into the redzone and protecting him from himself (demanding more short passes). Haley has helped in those areas, but has his own problems. Neither are perfect, and neither are horrible. Your fascination with one over the other is strange.

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 07:08 PM

That's a lovely story. But it has nothing to do with the point. Dixon only played because Ben got hurt in Kansas City and then Batch aggravated a previously hidden injury (some say he did it playing basketball during the season) in the same game.

I mean be serious. The days of having three QB's on the roster of similar skill sets are over.

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Rooney demanded they run the ball more efficiently the following year, part of which would be to protect the lead and give the defense a breather.

And I'm saying you can't protect/build leads when you take a lead, and then the defense goes back onto the field and gives the points right back.

And NO ONE, fans, media, NFL experts who cover this team, EVER bashes this team for this problem.

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Typical. Forget our number 1 receiver and running back was out, as was our number 2 running back. Forget about our probowl center being out for the year.

And the injuries Arians dealt with in Denver when Dick LeBeau's #1 ranked defense was embarrassed?

That didn't matter. The wicked witch was melted. And Todd Haley was going to save the day.

But he can't, and won't, because he's too interested in promoting HIMSELF.

If Todd Haley was from Boston, and did the crap he's done on offense since he's been here? His ass would have been fired after 2013 (Like it should have been).

ALLD

01-28-2016, 07:16 PM

Dennis Dixon...and how do you think he got on the roster??? Bruce Arians. He liked him at Oregon, he believed in him in Pittsburgh and he signed him in Arizona...lol. Arians did that. Not Haley.

Dennis Dixon is one of the few QBs who has Super Bowl rings with 2 different teams.

86WARD

01-28-2016, 07:24 PM

Dennis Dixon is one of the few QBs who has Super Bowl rings with 2 different teams.

So you're saying Arians had a 2X Super Bowl winner at QB?

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 07:28 PM

Poor Gale Gilbert was on the 1990-1993 Bills, then the 1994 Chargers.

"None for the Thumb"

hawaiiansteeler

01-28-2016, 07:30 PM

Hey look, everyone got what they wanted: Evil Bruce Arians was shown the door, Ben was put in the corner and spanked by his boss and told to change, and Art II hired a Yinzer to run the offense.

I'm surprised it took you this long to get to one of your very favorites: :deadhorse:

Todd Haley is nothing but a yinzer ex-golf coach who only got the job because of who his Daddy is...

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 07:35 PM

Todd Haley is nothing but a yinzer ex-golf coach who only got the job because of who his Daddy is...

Absolutely. The NFL agrees with me. No one wants to hire him.

He's a mental case. The rest of the league knows it.

By the way, YOU know, for a fact, that I wanted Kubiak to replace Haley after 2013 if they wouldn't promote Fichtner.

We didn't, and Kubiak has ended our season, twice.

YOU know for a fact, that I've always been a fan of Wade Phillips, and posted after last season that if we were going to stay 3-4 that we should hire him.

We didn't, the HOF QB from Denver did.

And their playing next week.

While we continue to blow chances with status quo BS.

86WARD

01-28-2016, 07:54 PM

Absolutely. The NFL agrees with me. No one wants to hire him.

He's a mental case. The rest of the league knows it.

By the way, YOU know, for a fact, that I wanted Kubiak to replace Haley after 2013 if they wouldn't promote Fichtner.

We didn't, and Kubiak has ended our season, twice.

YOU know for a fact, that I've always been a fan of Wade Phillips, and posted after last season that if we were going to stay 3-4 that we should hire him.

We didn't, the HOF QB from Denver did.

And their playing next week.

While we continue to blow chances with status quo BS. [/COLOR]

Maybe you should just be a Broncos fan then since the Steelers are so fucked up and bad...lol.

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 08:00 PM

I'm not a Broncos fan, living here is insufferable with these hicks.

But I'm not blind either. We have 1 playoff win since Ben was told by his owner to change.

I want the old Ben back. The Ben that was valued, respected, FEARED by the rest of the league.

Not the irrelevant QB who's been wearing his jersey the last 4 years.

salamander

01-28-2016, 08:03 PM

:pop2:

I came here for the show. :chuckle:

ALLD

01-28-2016, 08:05 PM

So you're saying Arians had a 2X Super Bowl winner at QB?

As a back up no less. If the the guy has 2 rings he should be a starter by now.

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Broncos are going to get killed next week.

86WARD

01-28-2016, 08:06 PM

As a back up no less. If the the guy has 2 rings he should be a starter by now.

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Broncos are going to get killed next week.

Not if they sign Dennis Dixon.

Devilsdancefloor

01-28-2016, 08:09 PM

7th ranked offense.

9th in first downs on offense.

3rd in TOP.

Constantly going three and out?

:lol:

it is situational football the numbers in some cases LIE, this happens to be one of those times. if they could have run the air out of the ball in the 4th quarter the D wouldnt have seen the field, but they couldnt and thye put the D back on the field time and time again.

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 08:15 PM

if they could have run the air out of the ball in the 4th quarter the D wouldnt have seen the field

The way football works is, you score, and unless the opponent fumbles the kickoff? Your defense has to play.

I listed four examples, of the offense giving the defense a lead, only to see the defense, give the lead right back to the opponent.

If they did their job once, in 4 tries, a mere 25% success rate, they win 10 games and make the playoffs.

Not being able to run the ball with a lead, and close out a game, was what happened this season against the Ravens.

10 yards from a win, and they couldn't get it done.

Craic

01-28-2016, 08:30 PM

And I'm saying you can't protect/build leads when you take a lead, and then the defense goes back onto the field and gives the points right back.

And NO ONE, fans, media, NFL experts who cover this team, EVER bashes this team for this problem.

How often do you add 2 and 2 and get 5?

Get lead - have offense hold on to the ball for more than 2 minutes.

Defense gets to rest

Defense, now rested, comes on the field fresher and able to hold off other team, not putting points right back up.

You keep glossing over that middle piece like it simply doesn't matter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO5sxLapAts

OH, sorry to say, but you're also wrong about not calling out our late game collapse . . . I was saying that very thing back in 2010 (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/3074-Pass-Defense-Not-so-Good/page3?highlight=defense%2C+quarter%2C+game), and reassessing our defense according to 4th quarter stats in 2012 (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/15486-Last-Four-Games-Steelers-Fourth-Quarter-Defense-Almost-Untouchable?highlight=late+game%2C+fourth+quarter) , among others.

And the injuries Arians dealt with in Denver when Dick LeBeau's #1 ranked defense was embarrassed?
You're the one who was making a big deal about the Steelers not playing this week. Not me. Nice try spinning it around, however.

That didn't matter. The wicked witch was melted. And Todd Haley was going to save the day.

But he can't, and won't, because he's too interested in promoting HIMSELF.

If Todd Haley was from Boston, and did the crap he's done on offense since he's been here? His ass would have been fired after 2013 (Like it should have been).

This seems personal. What, did he steal a girlfriend from you back in the day? Haley's done a fine job with the offense. I'd like it to be more consistent, but I'm pretty happy with what we have overall.

I don't know what your obsession with Haley is, but it's bordering on unhealthy. Find a doctor and get some Valium before we read about you in the paper.

fansince'76

01-28-2016, 08:36 PM

:pop2:

I came here for the show. :chuckle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYpxMEp6WbU

:lol:

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 08:45 PM

You're damn right it's personal, Art II took a potential dynasty and ruined it. For what? Because Bruce Arians didn't value a freaking fullback.

Be honest here, if Jerry Jones told Troy Aikman to change the way he plays after three trips to the Super Bowl in 8 years and then hired some unqualified crony who's Dad used to work for him what would you say? What would ANYONE with a brain say? They'd think Jerry Jones was out of his goddamn mind.

But somehow, for some unknown reason, the blatant career sabotage that Art II did to Ben is not only tolerated by the fan base, it's encouraged.

Sad really.

86WARD

01-28-2016, 08:53 PM

salamander

01-28-2016, 08:55 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYpxMEp6WbU

:lol:

Damn thing dances better than I ever could. :lol: :chuckle:

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 08:58 PM

Because Bruce Arians almost destroyed a franchise QB...literally.

Haley - 2.19/game
Arians - 2.95/game

Two games missed to injury with BA.

Seven games missed to injury with Haley.

Try harder.

Ben has taken MORE big shots in the last 4 years, than he did in the previous eight before Haley got here.

86WARD

01-28-2016, 09:06 PM

Two games missed to injury with BA.

Seven games missed to injury with Haley.

Try harder.

Ben has taken MORE big shots in the last 4 years, than he did in the previous eight before Haley got here.

Don't need to. Right there in the numbers. He takes less sacks with Haley at OC. Resulting in less hits. But since you brought it up, he took big hits with Arians as the OC. Silly to say...but nice try. BTW - how'd Ben make out with his nose in 2010 against the Ravens? OC was who?

Arians also killed his RBs...how many games did they miss due to injury? lol. (It's a dumb comment).

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 09:11 PM

Sacks don't matter, hits do.

You can see a sack coming, prepare for it.

The shots he has taken under Haley have been brutal. Career altering.

BTW - how'd Ben make out with his nose in 2010 against the Ravens? OC was who?

Can't stop a cheap shot, Suggs has been cheap shotting Ben since he was drafted. Ngata has been fined numerous times for cheap shotting QB's.

That's who they are.

Mojouw

01-28-2016, 09:23 PM

I don't even know what thread it was on anymore - since they have all basically turned in to the same argument. But MR. Professor (I'm assuming your PhD is in nonsense or maybe Todd Haley studies? I don't know), you have still failed to address the most obvious reason for a lack of Steelers SB appearances since 2011 - the absolute gut-punch of talent loss on the defensive side of the ball. They got old and the potential replacements didn't live up to their billing. They went from having two OLB'ers in a young and healthy Woodley (as an aside, can anyone imagine how much different things would have been if Woodley would have stayed on the trajectory his first couple of seasons indicated? Totally different outcomes - all likely better!) and Harrison in his prime that could rush the passer w/out needing to blitz an extra guy to no real viable one-on-one pass rushers. Hopefully, Dupree helps to fix that. They finally rebuilt the front line after the close of the Kiesel-Hampton-Smith era. They have not yet replaced Ike Taylor. This doesn't even begin to address the loss of Troy Polamalu.

Seriously, you realize that during the Polamalu era, the Steelers defense had 10 guys that had assignments and roles and 1 guy whose job was to devastate the offense. Lebeau and others have admitted, on multiple occasions, that Troy did not have assignments and "plays" on that defense. His job was to, I got no other way to put this, but to say "fuck up the offense" however he saw fit.

Is Haley the "best" coordinator out there? Nope. Is he really all that innovative? Nope. Does he get too "cute" sometimes? Yup. But offense has not really been this team's fundamental problem in the past 2-3 seasons. It is the lack of "playmakers" on defense - in particular, the secondary.

What can anyone really say? Father Time remains undefeated and he ripped out the heart of SB team between 2011-2013. The Steelers have largely rebuilt on the fly and the WORST that happened is two 8-8 seasons. In 2015, an injured and battered Steelers squad was about 70 minutes away from a SB appearance. Go ask fans of almost any other NFL franchise and see what they think about that rebuild timeline.

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 09:27 PM

That's your opinion.

Btw, the defense had trouble forcing turnovers in 2009 also. I guess they were old then too.

Mojouw

01-28-2016, 09:32 PM

That's your opinion.

Btw, the defense had trouble forcing turnovers in 2009 also. I guess they were old then too.

What part of that is my opinion? That 2009 time was pretty damn bad all the way around. Never disputed that.

Your central thesis seems to be that since the departure of Bruce Arians, that Todd Haley is the only reason there isn't an annual parade in Pittsburgh. My one and only point, is that is ludicrous.

For the record, I was never a fan of the Arians firing, but I could see why they felt they had to do it. In the same vein, I am not a giant Haley cheerleader either, but I'm not sure many others would have had a measurably greater amount of success.

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 09:47 PM

What part of that is my opinion? That 2009 time was pretty damn bad all the way around. Never disputed that.

Your central thesis seems to be that since the departure of Bruce Arians, that Todd Haley is the only reason there isn't an annual parade in Pittsburgh. My one and only point, is that is ludicrous.

For the record, I was never a fan of the Arians firing, but I could see why they felt they had to do it. In the same vein, I am not a giant Haley cheerleader either, but I'm not sure many others would have had a measurably greater amount of success.

Steelers history has proven when you promote OC's from within? You will succeed.

Steelers history has also proven that when you hire "outsiders" as OC? You will fail.

Mojouw

01-28-2016, 10:01 PM

Steelers history has proven when you promote OC's from within? You will succeed.

Steelers history has also proven that when you hire "outsiders" as OC? You will fail.

Huh? Are we going to have a Joe Walton reference next? Or maybe a Ray Sherman appearance? Or did you mean Gilbride?

Or maybe you mean Erhardt?

See, I know my history. It isn't like you are going to trip me up. This board has had these discussion about 1,000 times before. It is also worth mentioning that Walton, Sherman, and Gilbride were all hired in an almost totally different era of the NFL. What offenses look like now, versus then is pretty damn different.

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 10:05 PM

Mojouw

01-28-2016, 10:09 PM

Look at what teams are doing RIGHT NOW.

Titans? Mularkey stays for Mariota.

Bucs? Koetter stays for Winston.

Giants? McAdoo stays for Eli

Chargers? Bring Whiz back for Rivers.

Comfort level, a familiar face.

Tomlin wanted that too. He wanted Kirby Wilson to succeed Arians.

So? Ben isn't a developing QB. Kirby Wilson just got canned by the Vikings.

McAdoo was specifically brought in to force Eli to make changes to his game. Sound like anyone else you might have heard of?

Kubiak forced Manning to change his game to make the team better. Whiz was originally brought in with a mandate to change-up what the Chargers were doing on offense.

Dude, you're arguments are weak, ill-conceived, poorly thought out, and basically not worth debating. But I have beer and the lady is out of town...so what the hell else am I going to do?

Sad part is, I'm not even certain I disagree with everything you are saying. I just know that I do find issue with the scattershot, poorly supported, and totally out of context manner you are making your points.

Mojouw

01-28-2016, 10:20 PM

Steelers history has proven when you promote OC's from within? You will succeed.

Steelers history has also proven that when you hire "outsiders" as OC? You will fail.

The other critical piece to note in all the Steelers OC hires over the years is the constancy of the fundamental system. Here is the list : http://6thring.com/list-steelers-offensive-coordinators-pittsburgh.html

Basically they are all Erhardt-Perkins guys. Many of the OC's that Cowher hired were a result of contacts he made on early Parcells-Schotenheimer derived branches of the coaching tree.

Interestingly enough, they have basically been running the same "System" (if you buy that there are really only 3 dominant systems in the NFL: Air Coryell, Walsh's West Coast, and the Erhard-Perkins) since about 1990 or so.

SteelersProfessor

01-28-2016, 10:30 PM

So? Ben isn't a developing QB. Kirby Wilson just got canned by the Vikings.

Kirby Wilson took a promotion and left, he's now in Cleveland.

Kubiak forced Manning to change his game to make the team better.

You're wrong. Manning struggled running Kubiak's system from under center. BEFORE he was hurt, Kubiak relented and put Peyton back in the shotgun for the most part with some pistol formation and under center at times. Kubiak, although they really don't like each other, stays out of Manning's way when he's on the field.

I live in Denver, early in the season local scribes and newsmen were killing Kubiak for "treating Peyton this way".

Mojouw

01-28-2016, 11:04 PM

And when Peyton came back he ran kubiaks stuff. Did you not see the rollouts in the AFC championship game? Or how often he was under center against the Steelers?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

teegre

01-28-2016, 11:09 PM

Holy crap... I just had a realization.

Did the Professor used to go by "GoFor7" over at SF???

Art II meddling... lawyer... love for Arians... BINGO!!!

After seeing thread after thread after thread completely obliterated...

Yep, this is Gopher.

:scared:

teegre

01-29-2016, 06:41 AM

Two games missed to injury with BA.

Seven games missed to injury with Haley.

Try harder.

Ben has taken MORE big shots in the last 4 years, than he did in the previous eight before Haley got here.

As I told you four years ago...

The injury that BB suffered in KC was a freak injury. It could have happened on the first hit or the fortieth hit. The fact that BB is getting hit less now (less sacks) decreases the opportunities for an injury to occur.

The injury which caused BB to miss the most time, Mark Barron's shot on BB's knee, could have happened at any moment. It wouldn't have mattered who the OC was on that play, because no QB could have sustained the impact from a 200lbs. object flying at his knee. But, less hits equals less opportunity for that type of injury.

86WARD

01-29-2016, 09:00 AM

As I told you four years ago...

The injury that BB suffered in KC was a freak injury. It could have happened on the first hit or the fortieth hit. The fact that BB is getting hit less now (less sacks) decreases the opportunities for an injury to occur.

The injury which caused BB to miss the most time, Mark Barron's shot on BB's knee, could have happened at any moment. It wouldn't have mattered who the OC was on that play, because no QB could have sustained the impact from a 200lbs. object flying at his knee. But, less hits equals less opportunity for that type of injury.

But the hits are harder now.

SteelersProfessor

01-29-2016, 10:02 AM

The injury that BB suffered in KC was a freak injury.

Actually it wasn't, it was a slow developing play with Miller (the 1st read) in the backfield, hated it when Arians did it, hated it when Haley did it. It's 3rd and 4 and you have Heath lined up 3 yards in the backfield, so you want him to 7 yards to gain four.

But, less hits equals less opportunity for that type of injury.Not when you leave Ben in the pocket all year. You don't move him around and move the pocket. You've taken the very thing teams don't want him to do away from him.

You are AWARE that QB's DO get hit, without being "sacked", right?

Ask any DC the ONE thing they don't want Ben to do and that's to step up and make a play.

Well Haley already does that for them.

It's simple really, scrap #45, #46, and #89. Use your top three wides, with #4 coming in when someone needs a blow. Use #81 when #83 isn't on the field.

Do that? They'll win the AFC. With or without Todd Haley.

But the genius has to put his self-promoting ego to bed first.

All up to him.

- - - Updated - - -

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/UdfNNtaNC60OH7s6tMEbXXVceSc=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/5212805/Burfict-Hit-Ben.0.gif

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/ben-roethlisberger-hurt-against-rams.gif

http://i.imgur.com/uj3ItDP.gif

https://usatsteelerswire.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/bennett-hit.gif

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1429151/steelers11.gif

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/ben-rothlisberger-gets-hit-hard-by-baltimore.gif

Only one "sack" in that collection. But look where the hits are coming from. IN the pocket.

86WARD

01-29-2016, 10:13 AM

And you could probably find just as many outside the pocket...lol.

Can you try to stick to the thread topic though? Seriously this has nothing to do with the Steelers pass defense.

SteelersProfessor

01-29-2016, 10:16 AM

The pass defense needs corners and they need to be allowed to play press coverage.

You can bring in 5 new DB's, but if they are 10 yards off the ball on 3rd and 8? Won't matter.

lipps83

01-29-2016, 11:13 AM

The pass defense needs corners and they need to be allowed to play press coverage.

You can bring in 5 new DB's, but if they are 10 yards off the ball on 3rd and 8? Won't matter.

The scheme is part of the problem for sure. You need a better corner to where running that far off the ball isn't much of a problem. Ike Taylor was able to work within that system without much issue until he got older and lost some of his speed.

The problem is two fold. The scheme itself leaves some to be desired, but the thought behind it is sound. You need better corners to support it and hide the deficiency within the scheme itself. The Steelers do not have adequate corners so the scheme does not work, much at all.

The pass rush is the biggest factor though in how well the secondary plays, it is all based on time. More time allows receivers to get free. It would be improved by a better pass rush. It was partly successful this year because Butler did an excellent job of staying aggressive for the most part.

I think this defense can be one of the top defenses next year. Get a somewhat dominant NT to anchor the middle of the line. You don't need a hall of famer, but someone that is above average and not just average like McLendon. He is not all that dominant or disruptive. A more dominant NT will free up the linebackers. I would like to see them rush Shazier more often. I think he is one of the better pass rushers out of all the linebackers but they also need him in coverage. You just need an above average corner as well. Not a superstar. Better safeties are a must.

I think the top 3 picks this year should be NT, CB, S in any order.

Mojouw

01-29-2016, 11:13 AM

Ok. I'm done. Your collection of GIFs above and the conclusions you draw from them demonstrate a fairly flawed understanding of NFL football and basically a sports radio caller level of knowledge. In my experience that is not someone who has a genuine interesting in discussing things and attempting to see different points of view. You just want to bang your drum for whatever nonsense argument you are trying to make across about a dozen threads.

SteelersProfessor

01-29-2016, 11:33 AM

steelreserve

01-29-2016, 12:33 PM

I'm all about discussion.

For four years we've left Ben in the pocket. We've taken away the one asset that made him great. His ability to throw on the move. I'm not talking about scrambles, I'm talking about designed roll-outs, moving pockets.

That's as basic as it gets. A used to be staple with Whiz, and then Arians. And I bet we haven't done that 10 times in the past four years.

And by failing to do so, he's getting blasted MORE, he's missing MORE games. This system doesn't protect Ben OR help his OL's.

Haley's answers to "protect" Ben are handing the ball off and WR screens.

Teams are figuring this out.

We were scoring 30 points a game, assface.

Ben used to routinely get sacked 50 times a season; this year it was 20.

Yeah, I could do with less of the bubble screens, but Ben is doing just FINE the way we're using him. Threw for just a hair under 4,000 yards despite missing over a quarter of the season. If there was a problem with the offense, it wasn't that.

Basically: Quit smoking so much crack.

SteelersProfessor

01-29-2016, 01:09 PM

We were scoring 30 points a game, assface

When? They've scored 20 points or less on offense in 26 of their past 52 games dating back to game #16 in 2012.

They scored 20 points or less on offense in 8 of 16 games in 2013.

They scored 20 points or less on offense in 9 of 17 games in 2014.

Ben started every one of those games in 2013 and 2014.

After the second Ravens game in 2014 they scored 20 points or less on offense in 11 of their next 16 games (Last eight in 2014 and the first eight of 2015).

Where's this 30 points a game stuff you're referring too?

steelreserve

01-29-2016, 01:18 PM

When?

...

Where's this 30 points a game stuff you're referring too?

This season. Were you paying attention to it at all?

SteelersProfessor

01-29-2016, 01:24 PM

21

43

12

20

24

25

13

10
_________________________

Those are your Steelers points totals after eight games in 2015, that's HALF the season.

Once, they scored 30+.

Mojouw

01-29-2016, 04:16 PM

I'm all about discussion.

For four years we've left Ben in the pocket. We've taken away the one asset that made him great. His ability to throw on the move. I'm not talking about scrambles, I'm talking about designed roll-outs, moving pockets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F2sP9aG0cs

That's as basic as it gets. A used to be staple with Whiz, and then Arians. And I bet we haven't done that 10 times in the past four years.

And by failing to do so, he's getting blasted MORE, he's missing MORE games. This system doesn't protect Ben OR help his OL's.

Haley's answers to "protect" Ben are handing the ball off and WR screens.

Teams are figuring this out.

Okay. But the movement prior to Haley's arrival was mostly an attempt to correct for the inability of the line to pass block well on a consistent basis. Does Ben still get hit? Of course. But how many times this season and large stretches of last season did he have time to eat a sandwhich back there? There is less need to move the QB out of the pocket when your line has the ability to hold off the rush for 3-5 seconds.

Additionally, Roethlisberger is aging. He is not as spry as he once was. It has to be asked how much of the lack of pre-pass movement is a concession to that reality?

You mentioned that you lived in Denver, hasn't that formed the core of the Kubiak-Manning debate? How much do you intentionally "move" your post 30 something QB?

Additionally, pre-pass rollouts, bootlegs, etc serve to often eliminate portions of the field for the pass, as it is difficult for your QB to reset and then throw back across the field. With the emergence of the array of pass catching weapons that the Steelers have, they have shifted to using the entire field more on passing plays. Remaining in the pocket more and/or longer allows you to force the safeties to make bad choices and leaves more viable options longer in the play sequence.

Think about how many times they put AB outside one hash and Bryant outside the other and have them both run deep routes, with Miller and Bell also in the pattern(s). If you roll your QB out in that situation, you are telling the safeties they can rotate to the roll-out side of the field because few, if any QBs are going to throw back across the field 20+ yards. If you stay in the pocket, you force the safeties to either rotate to both outside routes, leaving the seams open for Bell and Miller and/or Wheaton to do damage OR you force single coverage without over the top help on either AB or Bryant. And as Ben has repeatedly said, if their even - their leaving.

Hawkman

01-29-2016, 04:37 PM

teegre

01-29-2016, 06:02 PM

You are AWARE that QB's DO get hit, without being "sacked", right?

Up until just now... no, I was completely unaware of that. :jerkit:

Use your top three wides, with #4 coming in when someone needs a blow. Use #81 when #83 isn't on the field.
You have come a long, long way from your "five wide and let BB throw it on every single down" days.

Progress... slow, incremental progress.

You just want to bang your drum for whatever nonsense argument you are trying to make across about a dozen threads.

Bingo!!! There is really no point in engaging him. Really, there's not. If you do indeed finally make headway and/or provide a valid point, he will simply switch disappear from that discussion, and continue the exact same argument in a different thread.

hawaiiansteeler

01-29-2016, 06:16 PM

What the hell does this have to do with the name on the thread......oh that's right, you're going to turn every thread into a Haley bashing thread.

that's what he has done on every single Steelers message board he's ever posted on, hijacking threads is his modus operandi...

SteelersProfessor

01-29-2016, 09:44 PM

You have come a long, long way from your "five wide and let BB throw it on every single down" days.

Never.

Hate 5 wides.

Hate empty sets.

I also hate the overuse of the shot gun because if gives your running game no threat of going wide. It's all up the gut.

The numbers of additions to the secondary won't matter per this thread, if the basic philosophy on defense remains. You'll beat the scrubs, maybe, but you won't beat the elite.

I hope they load up at corner. I hope Golson plays well, I hope Gay comes comes back, and I hope they go CB in round 1 AND round 2.

Then when you see the DB's 10 yards off the ball on 3rd and 8, then maybe you guys will realize this scheme sucks.

lipps83

01-29-2016, 09:53 PM

21

43

12

20

24

25

13

10
_________________________

Those are your Steelers points totals after eight games in 2015, that's HALF the season.

Once, they scored 30+.

I like how you bend information to fit your argument. I didn't realize the Pittsburgh Steelers only played 8 games this season, with half of them Ben didn't even play in.

Very interesting indeed.

SteelersProfessor

01-29-2016, 10:02 PM

I like how you bend information to fit your argument. I didn't realize the Pittsburgh Steelers only played 8 games this season, with half of them Ben didn't even play in.

Very interesting indeed.

I agree with you. Unfortunately the OP said this team was scoring 30 points a game.

That would include the games I listed, correct?

He was wrong.

fansince'76

01-29-2016, 10:22 PM

I agree with you. Unfortunately the OP said this team was scoring 30 points a game.

That would include the games I listed, correct?

He was wrong.

Stick to the thread topic.

MrPgh

01-29-2016, 10:33 PM

This thread..... :pop2:

steelreserve

01-29-2016, 10:39 PM

I agree with you. Unfortunately the OP said this team was scoring 30 points a game.

That would include the games I listed, correct?

He was wrong.

In games where Ben Roethlisberger was the quarterback, we averaged 29.9 points.

Over all 16 games, we averaged 26.43 points.

You want to nitpick either one of those, you're either a 13-year-old or just an idiot. Just admit that you have no point and move on.

teegre

01-30-2016, 08:58 AM

In games where Ben Roethlisberger was the quarterback, we averaged 29.9 points.

29.9 is not 30.

:director: You are WRONG!!!!!

MrPgh

01-30-2016, 06:45 PM

I like gingerbread cookies. And by ginger, I don't mean Andy Dalton.

polamalubeast

02-01-2016, 08:16 AM

Tomlin Not Very Concerned With 30th Ranked Pass Defense

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/02/tomlin-not-concerned-30th-ranked-pass-defense/

tube517

02-01-2016, 08:21 AM

Tomlin Not Very Concerned With 30th Ranked Pass Defense

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/02/tomlin-not-concerned-30th-ranked-pass-defense/

Blake will get a lifetime contract now :chuckle:

fansince'76

02-01-2016, 09:04 AM

Blake will get a lifetime contract now :chuckle:

And a key to the city! :rolleyes:

86WARD

02-01-2016, 11:54 AM

Poker Face.

Craic

02-01-2016, 12:12 PM

The article makes a very good point - who cares if we're 30th in total yards. It's a bogus stat. The more important stat is that we're 18th in yards per attempt. As the article says, still not great, but it means our pass defense is average in giving up yards. Pair that with a very good run defense and 7th in INTs, and you have a defense that played well enough to get you to the AFCCG (and they did, it was simply a great play by the other defense, and then the inability of the offense to move the ball in the last drive or two that lost it).

I know everyone hates giving up yards. I do too. But, on balance, I have more trust in the pass defense in the fourth quarter than any other Steelers defense since 2008.

Craic

02-01-2016, 12:29 PM

I also read in the Bob Labriola online chat something concerning Boykin:

[Will somebody] tell us the real story between Boykin and tomlin? Obviously something was going on.

I am not going to disparage Brandon Boykin by listing the reasons that came together to explain why he didn't play as much as you and many other Steelers fans wanted. I can tell you this -- definitively and from first-hand knowedge -- Mike Tomlin doesn't play those kinds of silly games. If Brandon Boykin could've helped the Steelers win, if Tomlin thought that, or if Keith Butler or Carnell Lake thought that and took it to Tomlin, Brandon Boykin would have played more. Of that I have no doubt.

Psycho Ward 86

02-01-2016, 12:40 PM

I also read in the Bob Labriola online chat something concerning Boykin:

thats still disconcerting that a supposedly great former-DB coach was unable to see how superior Boykin is to every DB on this team other than maybe Gay

Mojouw

02-01-2016, 02:35 PM

thats still disconcerting that a supposedly great former-DB coach was unable to see how superior Boykin is to every DB on this team other than maybe Gay

That assumes we have perfect knowledge of the situation. Whether or not a player plays and how much that player plays on Sundays often has a great deal to do with what happens Monday-Saturday. With the Steelers, we will never really know what that is or is not.

I still think that Boykin came here and sucked in the meeting room. I suspect it was the same reason that Philly was so keen to get rid of him. Later in the season Boykin admitted he was working on "some things" and lo and behold he saw the field.

Shoes

02-02-2016, 12:17 PM

That assumes we have perfect knowledge of the situation. Whether or not a player plays and how much that player plays on Sundays often has a great deal to do with what happens Monday-Saturday. With the Steelers, we will never really know what that is or is not.

I still think that Boykin came here and sucked in the meeting room. I suspect it was the same reason that Philly was so keen to get rid of him. Later in the season Boykin admitted he was working on "some things" and lo and behold he saw the field.

Could be, yet Blake did all his sucking on the field....every Sunday. :chuckle: