The biggest challenge ahead for Todd Haley

[zulater]

In many ways Todd Haley is the envy of every other OC in the NFL. The known returning talent he has going into next season is off the charts. Obviously there's some questions concerning how free agency will effect the o-line, and if Heath Miller's performance in the divisional playoff game is indication of his decline? ( I think he'll rebound and give us one more solid year and I am anxious to see Jesse James with a year under his belt) But regardless, the pro's so outweigh the cons. You got Pouncey, one of the best centers in the game returning. You can do so much more with the run game with Pouncey in there the way he gets to the second level. You've got established depth behind Pouncey now. And of course our receivers 1-4 are without peer. ( I think DHB moves on and Coates is the 4th receiver next year) But now we come to what I believe is Haley and Tomlin's greatest challenge. It's a two headed "monster" at that.

1. You've got to split the reps between LeVeon Bell and DeAngelo Williams in a sensible manner! Last year as we all know when Bell was down with suspension Williams came in and did a great job subbing in for him. And again after Bell was hurt. He was one of the leading rushers in the league through the first two week. Then Bell comes back and DeAngelo becomes Claude Raines. ( the invisible man) Might as well have put him on a milk carton! :doh: I realize LeVeon is clearly the top dog on this sled ride. And no I'm not going all "Tee Tee" on you and blaming Bell's injury on overuse. :yuck: But these are two exceptional players and if you're gearing yourself to a long playoff run you want both engaged and fresh! You figure on average you've got 60ish offensive snaps a game. Bell is such a unique talent that he's perfectly adaptable to empty back sets. He operates perfectly as a slot receiver or even lined up a wr on the los. So in other words you factor into the equation that Bell is your primary and best third down back. Now of course Williams proved himself highly able in this role as well. But again he's no LeVeon. Of course no one else in the league is either. Anyone getting back to the point, let's ballpark it at 65 snaps per game. I want DeAngelo to get at least 20 snaps per game. That should translate into about 5 touches per game. Now obviously game circumstances will vary and I'm not saying this should be ironclad. But over the course of 4 games if Williams is getting roughly a third of the snaps and getting roughly the same proportion of touches then I think Todd Haley is doing his job well!

2. The second part of the equation may be the tougher part. You've got to rein in Ben and AB somewhat. Yeah it looks wonderful that Antonio is challenging all time NFL records for yards and catches by a receiver. But is it necessarily the best thing for the team? I realize that Ben and AB have a special bond and feel for each other. That AB can catch a ball on a play he's covered on and that Ben excels at throwing him open. But I think you get to a point of saturation, a point where your thoughts and movements together become anticipated. And therefore you become vulnerable, as in interceptions!

Now here's the good news regarding point 2. I think with LeVeon back Ben will be disinclined to force the issue as much with AB. I think there was a clear connection to Ben's superior TD to int ratio in 2014 compared to last year that relates considerably to Le'Veon's presence on the field. Taking nothing away from Martavis (who's still emerging) Heath Miller, DeAngelo or anyone else, but Le'Veon commands a respect few players will in this league demand.

So now getting back to point one. This is why it's essential that Tomlin and Haley refrain from "running the wheels off" Le'Veon as once Tomlin proudly proclaimed and then succeeded in doing with Willie Parker. If Le'Veon, Ben and Antonio all make it through next season healthy and go into the playoffs that way, no matter what shortcomings we have on defense we will be the team hosting the AFC Championship game and advancing to the Super Bowl.

Thoughts?

[86WARD]

I like your thoughts.

Ben and AB have been honed in on each other for a couple seasons and teams haven't been able to stop them other than taking Ben out and putting Vick in...lol. What makes you think teams will become vulnerable? I see what you are saying in a "normal" situation, but teams haven't come close yet...

I think this is a season (upcoming) that the team is going to have to deal with time without AB. Of course there's no evidence to back that up...just a hunch...which hopefully is just a pessimistic thought.

[tube517]

Pretty much in agreement. Haley needs to improve his red zone playcalling or just let Ben call it. Munchak will be around another year, too.

1. Le'Vangelo: I'd like to see them both get carries. I think Haley was going to start using DeAngelo to complement Le'veon but he got injured too soon.

2. For this year, Martavis slumped near the end of the season so Ben going to AB was happening more. (At least that is how I saw it) Throw in The Outlaw and Coates (along with Wheaton, Bell, Williams) next year and there will be alot of targets to other offensive players.

[ALLD]

I wouldn't waste a draft pick on a RB or WR next time.

[Shoes]

Good stuff Zu! Is Haley really the one who decides how many snaps Bell & Williams get or is it Tomlin?

I think that ball is in Tomlin's court.

[zulater]

Good stuff Zu! Is Haley really the one who decides how many snaps Bell & Williams get or is it Tomlin?

I think that ball is in Tomlin's court.

Good question. I would imagine there's some discussion in the week leading up to each game how they plan to implement various personnel into the lineup, but once the game starts I think it's mostly on Haley. The one who controls the play call seemingly would be responsible for what players get on the field and when. But if Tomlin sees too little or too much of someone during the course of a game I'm sure he lets it be known and it's addressed in the moment. But that's all strictly a guess.

[zulater]

Pretty much in agreement. Haley needs to improve his red zone playcalling or just let Ben call it. Munchak will be around another year, too.

1. Le'Vangelo: I'd like to see them both get carries. I think Haley was going to start using DeAngelo to complement Le'veon but he got injured too soon.

2. For this year, Martavis slumped near the end of the season so Ben going to AB was happening more. (At least that is how I saw it) Throw in The Outlaw and Coates (along with Wheaton, Bell, Williams) next year and there will be alot of targets to other offensive players.

"LeVangelo" :lol: I like it!

In my ideal world Le'Veon gets 18 carries a game and 4-6 targets in the passing game. DeAngelo gets 7-10 total touches on average. Throw in 2-4 carries a game by other backs, and that leaves you with Ben throwing about 28-35 a game. Perfect balance. We'd be tough to deal with.

[zulater]

I wouldn't waste a draft pick on a RB or WR next time.

Absolutely not. But here's a question for the board. If someone offered you a 4th round pick ( or praise Jesus a 3rd :pray: ) for Wheaton, believing that Sammy Coates is an emerging talent, and that DHB is perfectly cast as a #4 receiver, would youn take it?

I would in a nano second, Nothing against Wheaton but you have to give value to get value and we have other needs that could be addressed with that pick. Plus Wheaton is a year removed from free agency. Which means the best you probably get is a 5th. But I still think I take it to clear the spot for Coates as much an anything.

[SteelersProfessor]

2. The second part of the equation may be the tougher part. You've got to rein in Ben and AB somewhat.

Not tough at all. Ben looks to AB, because AB is the ONLY constant WR on the field for him. Everyone else mix's and matches due to Todd Haley's inane substitutions.

Keep it simple, your best three wides, one TE, and a RB. Stop the constant subbing, nail #45, #46, and #89 to the bench.

Treat the first 28 minutes of a half the same way you treat the final two. Don't overthink and complicate things.

It's the only time this offense has worked in four years.

[SteelersProfessor]

Good stuff Zu! Is Haley really the one who decides how many snaps Bell & Williams get or is it Tomlin?

I think that ball is in Tomlin's court.

Haley runs the offense. Period.

[86WARD]

Absolutely not. But here's a question for the board. If someone offered you a 4th round pick ( or praise Jesus a 3rd :pray: ) for Wheaton, believing that Sammy Coates is an emerging talent, and that DHB is perfectly cast as a #4 receiver, would youn take it?

I would in a nano second, Nothing against Wheaton but you have to give value to get value and we have other needs that could be addressed with that pick. Plus Wheaton is a year removed from free agency. Which means the best you probably get is a 5th. But I still think I take it to clear the spot for Coates as much an anything.

A 3rd I would take in an instant. A 4th...I would take if I thought there was no chance that I could re-sign him. If I thought there was a good chance to re-sign him, I wouldn't take the pick. I still think that DHB could be a 5th WR and key ST contributor and I feel like he is at a stage that he could accept that. Would the team dress 5 WRs on Game Day? Not sure...

[SteelersProfessor]

I would take a 4th for Wheaton. He won't be worth the price tag going forward and if you pay him one year and he leaves chances are the comp pick would be worse.

[steelamazing]

2. The second part of the equation may be the tougher part. You've got to rein in Ben and AB somewhat. Yeah it looks wonderful that Antonio is challenging all time NFL records for yards and catches by a receiver. But is it necessarily the best thing for the team? I realize that Ben and AB have a special bond and feel for each other. That AB can catch a ball on a play he's covered on and that Ben excels at throwing him open. But I think you get to a point of saturation, a point where your thoughts and movements together become anticipated. And therefore you become vulnerable, as in interceptions!


I totally agree, Ben has the opportunity to have a Joe Montana 1990 type season, use all his weapons, hopefully Jesse James will be a big contributor.

Time to make Ben a true elite, he will have the offensive line, the running backs coming out of the backfield, the best recievers in the league, use all of them.

If he would quit going for the fence all the time and use his weapons and play the time of posession game, that will help the defense, Ben has the opportunity to do whatever he wants, if he would exercise patience.

Which I think will lead to more success in the red zone.

[SteelersProfessor]

Um, no, Haley needs to leave his "weapons" on the field and stop trying to be cute in crucial parts of a game.

That's what ruined the last 4 years.

[Shoes]

Good question. I would imagine there's some discussion in the week leading up to each game how they plan to implement various personnel into the lineup, but once the game starts I think it's mostly on Haley. The one who controls the play call seemingly would be responsible for what players get on the field and when. But if Tomlin sees too little or too much of someone during the course of a game I'm sure he lets it be known and it's addressed in the moment. But that's all strictly a guess.

Probably a good guess, Zu. I think what Haley decides in game planing has to be approved by Tomlin.

[Psycho Ward 86]

yeah great point. as great as Deangelo has been as a pass catcher out of the backfield, Ben definitely didnt throw to him so reflexively as he always did with Leveon. I think this past season will turn out to be an abberant and Ben will throw (dare i say) 40 TD's and 12 interceptions

[SteelersProfessor]

For the most part Haley runs the offense. He can't run everything by Tomlin simply because there is no time.

Now if a player screws up? Repeatedly? Then Tomlin chimes in. But for the most part? It's Haley's baby.

- - - Updated - - -


yeah great point. as great as Deangelo has been as a pass catcher out of the backfield, Ben definitely didnt throw to him so reflexively as he always did with Leveon. I think this past season will turn out to be an abberant and Ben will throw (dare i say) 40 TD's and 12 interceptions

DeAngelo caught 40 passes for Ben. Ben only played in 12 games. He caught zero passes in the four games Ben missed.

That's over three passes a game. With an offense that features the best WR in football.

That's plenty.

[Shoes]

For the most part Haley runs the offense. He can't run everything by Tomlin simply because there is no time.

Now if a player screws up? Repeatedly? Then Tomlin chimes in. But for the most part? It's Haley's baby.

If thats how the offense runs, then it must be the same for the defense. Do you think it was Butler's choice in playing Blake all season?

[SteelersProfessor]

If thats how the offense runs, then it must be the same for the defense. Do you think it was Butler's choice in playing Blake all season?

Butler, Lake, and Tomlin all like Blake. But the "rumor" is that Boykin said something to Tomlin about his snap count after week one and that PO'd Tomlin. He felt that Boykin, being the "new guy" should have kept his trap shut. And Tomlin held a grudge.

Boykin would AVOID the local media during the week, would barely speak to them. Boykin would get up and walk out of the locker room if he saw a reporter whom he knew would ask him why he doesn't think he is playing as much as he should.

[Shoes]

Butler, Lake, and Tomlin all like Blake. But the "rumor" is that Boykin said something to Tomlin about his snap count after week one and that PO'd Tomlin. He felt that Boykin, being the "new guy" should have kept his trap shut. And Tomlin held a grudge.

Boykin would AVOID the local media during the week, would barely speak to them. Boykin would get up and walk out of the locker room if he saw a reporter whom he knew would ask him why he doesn't think he is playing as much as he should.

You side stepped that one, but it doesn't matter because this is headed off course and I don't want Zu's thread to be highjacked.

[SteelersProfessor]

I think Butler wanted Blake out there, but I also think Tomlin tinkers with that side of the football MORE than he does with Haley's.

Haley runs this offense the exact way he ran his offense in Kansas City.

[teegre]

Haley's biggest challenge: not out-thinking himself.


At times, his offense reminds me of the 1997 AFCCG. You have Bettis; they can't stop Bettis; so... the coaches put the ball in Kordell's hands. :doh: Haley has the best offensive talent in the entire league; all he has to do is "not" mess it up. It really is that simple.



HALEY: First-and-goal from the one. They're thinking run; so, we will line up in the I-formation, but throw a screen to the fullback.

BEN: Or... we give it to Bell.

[SteelersProfessor]

It's not out-thinking himself. It's him being too busy trying to show everyone he's the smartest kid in class.

Until they put the dunce cap on his head and send him to Time Out.

That was his issue in Kansas City, he was too into trying to promote himself and his genius.

And he's doing the same damn thing in Pittsburgh.

[SteelersProfessor]

In many ways Todd Haley is the envy of every other OC in the NFL.

I agree with this. They are probably wondering how a guy who's offense has scored 20 or less in 26 of their past 52 games, including three straight under 20 point efforts in the playoffs, with all this alleged "talent", and somehow keeps his job?

[fansince'76]

Um, no, Haley needs to leave his "weapons" on the field and stop trying to be cute in crucial parts of a game.

You mean like on opening day where we came out of the gate shoving it down the Pats' throats only to kill the drive and flip momentum with the idiotic flea flicker to AB which got completely blown up and lost 8 yards? I agree. And he made plenty of those kinds of calls throughout the season.


It's not out-thinking himself. It's him being too busy trying to show everyone he's the smartest kid in class.

Until they put the dunce cap on his head and send him to Time Out.

That was his issue in Kansas City, he was too into trying to promote himself and his genius.

And he's doing the same damn thing in Pittsburgh.

Bingo. This is my issue with Haley in a nutshell as well. Arians used to get crucified for the same thing (with a LOT less in the cupboard than Haley's been given), but Haley seems to get a pass. To be completely fair, though, Haley does have his good moments (kinda hard not to with the talent on offense this team has), but he has far too many WTF moments, IMO.

[teegre]

It's not out-thinking himself. It's him being too busy trying to show everyone he's the smartest kid in class.

Semantics

[Hawkman]

Yep Zu, I figured this would turn into a Haley bashing thread. Nice try though.

[86WARD]

Arguably the best offense in the NFL...yet Haley isn't a good coordinator...

[Count Steeler]

Arguably the best offense in the NFL...yet Haley isn't a good coordinator...

Scary to think what would happen with a real OC, eh?

[86WARD]

Scary to think what would happen with a real OC, eh?

Average 600 passing and 58 points a game.

[hawaiiansteeler]

I agree with this. They are probably wondering how a guy who's offense has scored 20 or less in 26 of their past 52 games, including three straight under 20 point efforts in the playoffs, with all this alleged "talent", and somehow keeps his job?

hey Crash,

just can't let your hatred of Haley go, huh? so now you have to contaminate this message board with your repetitive bullshit?

[Count Steeler]

Average 600 passing and 58 points a game.

But would even that be enough?

[SteelersProfessor]

hey Crash,

just can't let your hatred of Haley go, huh? so now you have to contaminate this message board with your repetitive bullshit?

You call it hatred, I call it reality.

Case in point, Denver 4th and 1.

The play Haley called had one receiver on the field, Wheaton.

1 RB.

And then Miller, Spaeth, with Jesse James out of the backfield.

He took Bryant OFF the field. In a game where Antonio Brown was already gone.

So he called a play for James, who had 1 catch, and 3 yards, in a MONTH.

And the Broncos weren't fooled one bit.

So Ben went to read #2, Wheaton, who isn't the most athletic guy in the world.

Sure would have been nice if it were Bryant trying to battle the 6-1 Talib, no? So Haley ran a 4th down play with his two best wides off the field. One by injury, the other by idiocy.

Once again, rather than just use his TALENT, Haley has to get cute.

And once again, it cost him.

- - - Updated - - -


Arguably the best offense in the NFL...yet Haley isn't a good coordinator...

Yards mean little.

Drew Brees gets yards too.

[teegre]

Getting back on track, whether the offense is #1 or not, or scored more points that they ever have in their history, Haley could still improve.

For example:
4th-&-1... against the Ravens, who are weak in the secondary, while stout in the front seven. Haley sends in three TEs, playing right into Baltimore's strength (D-linemen). I don't mind the call of giving the ball to D.Williams, but spread the Ravens out/force the Ravens to play their weak DBs... by going four wide.

More importantly...

I heard once that in the early 90's, during a drive, a Cowboys O-linemen yelled out the play to the opposing defense... and, that defense could not stop them.

The point is: if you're better than everyone else, you don't need trickery. If you have 1st-&-goal from the three, Bell should get the ball three times. Or, BB targets AB. Throwing to Spaeth and/or running Roosevelt Nix up the middle makes zero sense.

BB, AB, & Bell... live & die by them.

[StillCurtains]

I like where you're coming from. Just a few things though. I understand where you are coming from with Ben being locked in on AB. I feel that some of it this year had to do with Ben having to gain more trust with Wheaton. He began to go to him more as the season went on, so I feel that will be one factor going into next season.

Hey Bey did pretty decent for a #4 and good spot duty for Bryant while he was out, but we can still have just a bit more consistency with him so I hope he re-signs. There wasn't too much to be expected from Coates with his limited knowledge of the playbook, but he showed some promise in the playoffs so I feel he will be better with a year under his belt.

As for Bryant, he needs to do better in fighting for the ball in the offseason. His hands also have to be more consistent. As Ben said, he needs to get tougher. This offseason he needs to realize that he's a man amongst boys while being defended. He needs to see that his talent and size can't be matched and just start manhandling defenders on contested passes. It's these reasons that Ben locks into AB so much. When he really needs a play, it's 50-50 with Bryant.

If there are 65 offensive snaps in a game I want Ben with 30 pass attempts. 30 should keep Ben fresh as well as upright and well protected through 16 games. When it comes to Bell, I need him with 23 carries a game and sprinkle in his passing targets. He's just too talented a player, and I need his carries at 23. The reason is that Bell is the stablizer of the offense.

Bell doesn't fumble the ball and that's an asset that you just can't replace. His blocking ability also gives them a great physical presence and keeps Ben much cleaner. I would then give De'Angello 12 carries to change things up and keep Bell fresh.

The redzone playcalling must improve. I would like to see something like playaction misdirection RB screens. I would like to see packages that have Heath, Bryant and James for fade options. I would like to see occassional RB tosses and RB off tackle plays.

I would like the deep balls on 3rd and short to manageable to end. That's Madden type football. There are too many weapons on this team not to be able to convert on 3rd and short or manageable. Going deep in that situation is low percentage and bad game management. When you miss that play, you not only lose points, but also possession and let the opposing team off the hook.

You need to get the necessary yardage to get the first down, then finish the drive in getting the points. That's playing with a sense of urgency as well as knowing in game situations with a killer instinct mentality. Also, the trick plays need to end. If you're in FG range and it's not a situation where you have to go for it, then don't. Take the points. There is no need for fake punts and plays of that matter if the game is not on the line to need to do so.

This is an offense that is so talented that it can go straight at you with nothing that anyone can do about it. There is no need to get cute with trickery at all. Just line up and say here we are. Try and stop us if you can.

[SteelersProfessor]

Ben relies on AB because AB is the only constant presence on the field at WR.

The snap counts for the others vary from week to week.

THAT hurts the offense more than helps it.

[SteelersProfessor]

You can't have a predetermined number. Haley's tried that for 4 years, it's why we are what we are.

It's not brain surgery. Three wides, a RB. a TE. #2 RB comes in every 3rd series, carries or not. #81 comes in when Miller needs a blow.

Enough of Nix, Spaeth, Johnson. Coates can be the #4 WR. Leave DHB on special teams.

If Haley did that for an entire game his offense would look much more polished, and in turn he'd look a helluva lot smarter.

[Psycho Ward 86]

You can't have a predetermined number. Haley's tried that for 4 years, it's why we are what we are.

It's not brain surgery. Three wides, a RB. a TE. #2 RB comes in every 3rd series, carries or not. #81 comes in when Miller needs a blow.

Enough of Nix, Spaeth, Johnson. Coates can be the #4 WR. Leave DHB on special teams.

If Haley did that for an entire game his unit would look much more polished, and in turn he'd look a helluva lot smarter.

yeah lets limit ourselves to 1 offensive package on a team riddled with weapons everywhere...

[SteelersProfessor]

yeah lets limit ourselves to 1 offensive package on a team riddled with weapons everywhere...

What weapons? Is Spaeth a weapon? Johnson? Nix? Just eliminate those three.

Like I said, 49ers, week 2. Injuries, inactives, and suspensions forced Haley to keep it simple.

They had their best output on offense all year.

[hawaiiansteeler]

You can't have a predetermined number. Haley's tried that for 4 years, it's why we are what we are.

It's not brain surgery. Three wides, a RB. a TE. #2 RB comes in every 3rd series, carries or not. #81 comes in when Miller needs a blow.

Enough of Nix, Spaeth, Johnson. Coates can be the #4 WR. Leave DHB on special teams.

If Haley did that for an entire game his offense would look much more polished, and in turn he'd look a helluva lot smarter.

http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/dead-horse.gif

[SteelersProfessor]

http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/dead-horse.gif


:lol: