Civil Discussion: Ben could be more efficient

[Psycho Ward 86]

Was talking about this in another thread, but it was for the Broncos game next week and I didn't want to go off topic so here goes:

Let's keep it civil. I'm not being a Ben hater, I simply think he could stand to be better. Hell if anything, I don't think it's all his fault. Based on the commentary from Gumbel/Trent Green today it sounded like Tomlin and Haley were encouraging Ben all season to make risky deep throws because oftentimes, it's the equivalent of a punt. i love Ben and im forever grateful for what he's done for us so far but i think we all know Ben is more than smart enough not to force some of these super deep passes that he's attempted that resulted in INT's against the patriots, rams, raiders, and the bengals (twice now). picking up the 1st down/not turning the ball over would be a nice alternative to these thread through the eye of a needle throws 40+ yards downfield.

some of you will argue "it also sets up the deep pass later in the game," but are uncharacteristic under/overthrows into double/triple coverage really setting up these passes? yes, im aware that Ben leads the league in 40+ yard completions in the league despite missing 4 and a half games. however, the vast majority of these completions were far more open than the ones that got picked off. maybe if Martavis continues to grow as a receiver and learns to highpoint the ball and be more physical we can return to these types of attempts, but for now, no one else thinks this offense would be better if it were more in the mold of last season with a higher mixture of intermediate/short passes thrown in for good measure?

i really do think Ben is capable of having a season more along the lines of 4:1, 5:1, maybe even 6:1 in TD:INT ratio. and with these weapons, this O-line, i think it will be a reality if we play smarter ball. Ben's too good to have only had 2 30+ pass TD seasons so far for his career.

p.s on the flip side, just noticed that Ben has only fumbled once and not lost any this season


thoughts?

[polamalubeast]

Before the week 14....

674476706531438592

[fansince'76]

Yep, I agree we go for the home run ball a little too often, and said as much a couple of weeks ago. But the deep ones he hits are often beautiful. :chuckle:

[Psycho Ward 86]

Yep, I agree we go for the home run ball a little too often, and said as much a couple of weeks ago. But the deep ones he hits are often beautiful. :chuckle:

absolutely. nothing wrong with "settling" for heath or AB down the seam for 10-15 yards

[Craic]

I think Ben, as he gets older, is looking more like the old Brett Favre. That long ball is part of his repertoire and it'd probably hinder him quite a bit to take it away, or even have him focus on throwing shorter. I have no stats to back up my next statement, but I wonder . . . looking at games (and seasons) where Ben and the offense isn't as effective, how often had he been told to cut down the long-ball and hit the short or middle receivers. I know we always think of Go-Deep Arians, but he also absolutely loved the Bubble-screens (as Haley does). The two may have nothing to do with each other, but I thought I'd share the thought and see what others think.

[MrPgh]

To be fair, even if they weren't the best throws by Ben, his last two INTs (today against CIN and his second INT in SEA) should have been called back via penalties. Refs have been letting Steeler receivers get mugged lately.

[Count Steeler]

Cincinnati is one of the better defenses in the league and we still put up 26 points (sans the pick 6).

It kind of reminds me of the Blue Jays this year. Home run bombs all year long, but when you play good teams, you got to be able to hit the singles as well.

Sure it is fun to get the bombs, but you have to be able to keep the ball as long as possible, especially with our secondary. Of course a TD on every possession takes care of our inept secondary as well.

[Craic]

To be fair, even if they weren't the best throws by Ben, his last two INTs (today against CIN and his second INT in SEA) should have been called back via penalties. Refs have been letting Steeler receivers get mugged lately.

Naa, even if Bryant wasn't fouled on that play, he wasn't going to get the ball. It was too underthrown. So, whether there was a foul or not really doesn't change the fact that Ben threw a bad ball that play.

Of course, I think he only threw two bad balls all game, and one of them was out of anyone's reach. Not too shabby.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I think Ben, as he gets older, is looking more like the old Brett Favre. That long ball is part of his repertoire and it'd probably hinder him quite a bit to take it away, or even have him focus on throwing shorter. I have no stats to back up my next statement, but I wonder . . . looking at games (and seasons) where Ben and the offense isn't as effective, how often had he been told to cut down the long-ball and hit the short or middle receivers. I know we always think of Go-Deep Arians, but he also absolutely loved the Bubble-screens (as Haley does). The two may have nothing to do with each other, but I thought I'd share the thought and see what others think.

i agree with you to some degree. i think i should clarify that when i say that we could be more efficient, im talking about less throws 35+ yards downfield, and taking a shot 15+ yards downfield. thats still usually considered "deep" territory

[zulater]

The deep ball has been a huge weapon for this team. The fact the Steelers have shown a willingness to go deep on any down from any point on the field and have had more than token success with it opens the middle of the field, and underneath sideline routes. Ben mostly played a patient game and picked the Bengals apart underneath. Over 75% completions for the day seems fairly efficient to me? :noidea: And on the one deep pass anyone with a brain should have noticed that A) it hit Martavis Bryant right in the hands in the end zone , and B) should have drawn an interference flag, clearly Martavis was arm barred before the ball got to him. On the interception again a flag could have been thrown. Martavis was rode away from the ball by one db while the other swooped in for the pick. Claiming Ben underthrew the ball or the pass was uncatchable I disagree. I think the ball was in the area and if Martavis isn't interfered with he could have adjusted to the ball at least to the point of playing db and knocking the ball away from the safety. Now unlike the earlier interference this no-call isn't automatic (unless it's the Patriots or Ravens who squawk and cry loud enough to get the late flag almost every time) so I can live with that. And the fact is on that particular possession we started at our own 20. If you tell me at the start of that drive that we're going to use 3 minutes of clock and then give the Bengals the ball back on their own 4 at the end of it I'm not terribly upset. Sometimes an interception is as good as a punt.

Anyway the standard of perfection that Ben is held to by some is absurd. Anyone watching Aaron Rodgers play lately? Not seeing any hiccoughs in his game? Tom Brady seems to be less than perfect as well quite a bit lately. Cam Newton and Russell Wilson are red hot lately, but a month ago neither was completing 60% of their passes.

Getting back to Ben and his supposed lack of efficiency, you take the deep ball out of our arsenal and you'll make our opponents very happy. They would love nothing more than to be able to concentrate on jamming down on our wideouts and tight ends. You really think Heath is getting 10 catches yesterday if the threat of the deep ball is removed from our arsenal in all but Hail Mary scenario's? :doh:

Oh well Ben's old. He wont be around too much longer. Maybe we can get another efficient guy like Neil O'Donnell in here soon, make the Ben bitchers happy.

[Psycho Ward 86]

The deep ball has been a huge weapon for this team. The fact the Steelers have shown a willingness to go deep on any down from any point on the field and have had more than token success with it opens the middle of the field, and underneath sideline routes. Ben mostly played a patient game and picked the Bengals apart underneath. Over 75% completions for the day seems fairly efficient to me? :noidea: And on the one deep pass anyone with a brain should have noticed that A) it hit Martavis Bryant right in the hands in the end zone , and B) should have drawn an interference flag, clearly Martavis was arm barred before the ball got to him. On the interception again a flag could have been thrown. Martavis was rode away from the ball by one db while the other swooped in for the pick. Claiming Ben underthrew the ball or the pass was uncatchable I disagree. I think the ball was in the area and if Martavis isn't interfered with he could have adjusted to the ball at least to the point of playing db and knocking the ball away from the safety. Now unlike the earlier interference this no-call isn't automatic (unless it's the Patriots or Ravens who squawk and cry loud enough to get the late flag almost every time) so I can live with that. And the fact is on that particular possession we started at our own 20. If you tell me at the start of that drive that we're going to use 3 minutes of clock and then give the Bengals the ball back on their own 4 at the end of it I'm not terribly upset. Sometimes an interception is as good as a punt.

Anyway the standard of perfection that Ben is held to by some is absurd. Anyone watching Aaron Rodgers play lately? Not seeing any hiccoughs in his game? Tom Brady seems to be less than perfect as well quite a bit lately. Cam Newton and Russell Wilson are red hot lately, but a month ago neither was completing 60% of their passes.

Getting back to Ben and his supposed lack of efficiency, you take the deep ball out of our arsenal and you'll make our opponents very happy. They would love nothing more than to be able to concentrate on jamming down on our wideouts and tight ends. You really think Heath is getting 10 catches yesterday if the threat of the deep ball is removed from our arsenal in all but Hail Mary scenario's? :doh:

Oh well Ben's old. He wont be around too much longer. Maybe we can get another efficient guy like Neil O'Donnell in here soon, make the Ben bitchers happy.

wow. so much for civil. it is BECAUSE i think so highly of Ben that i made this thread. i think he is FULLY CAPABLE of even more than he's done thus far and simply want to see him ATTAIN IT. the fact that we are armed to the teeth with perhaps the most loaded offense in the NFL plus having a QB in his prime who is elite in his own right says to me that our QB ought to match or exceed every damn player at his position on paper and on film. every QB is going to have to live with some bad calls that go against them (i agree that Ben gets a shorter end of the stick to officiating than most, but im not going to whine about it). no QB attained greatness or failed to attain it because of officiating.

yeah you're right to some degree. Ben completed a high percentage of his passes and a decent YPA. He also didnt throw any TD's against a vulnerable defense missing 2 of its top 4 CB, a safety, a crippled CB, and a linebacker for much of the game. i think an elite QB like ben could have done better and i offer a critique because i think he's a great player capable of even more.

making someone bulletproof to any criticism seems a bit much to me. ill bitching about how much i long for the Big Ben days as much as anyone when he finally hangs it up

[zulater]

wow. so much for civil. it is BECAUSE i think so highly of Ben that i made this thread. i think he is FULLY CAPABLE of even more than he's done thus far and simply want to see him ATTAIN IT. the fact that we are armed to the teeth with perhaps the most loaded offense in the NFL plus having a QB in his prime who is elite in his own right says to me that our QB ought to match or exceed every damn player at his position on paper and on film. every QB is going to have to live with some bad calls that go against them (i agree that Ben gets a shorter end of the stick to officiating than most, but im not going to whine about it). no QB attained greatness or failed to attain it because of officiating.

yeah you're right to some degree. Ben completed a high percentage of his passes and a decent YPA. He also didnt throw any TD's against a vulnerable defense missing 2 of its top 4 CB, a safety, a crippled CB, and a linebacker for much of the game. i think an elite QB like ben could have done better and i offer a critique because i think he's a great player capable of even more.

making someone bulletproof to any criticism seems a bit much to me. ill bitching about how much i long for the Big Ben days as much as anyone when he finally hangs it up

I was a bit sardonic, but not uncivil. Regardless I knew Ben's game would be downgraded by some for lack of touchdown passes. And because we kicked more fg's than we would like. But let me address this a bit. Ben didn't throw a td pass agasinst an injury depleted Bengal secondary you say. And I say so what? He converted 3rd downs, he kept the sticks moving. Anyway let's further examine Ben's "failures". First drive 3rd and 3 at the Bengals 20, completes a 19 yarder to AB to the Bengals 1. 80 yard drive, all but 6 yards accounted for by passing yards. But since Ben hands off from the 1 yard line he's a failure here because he didn't exploit the "depleted" Bengal secondary for a TD pass?

Our second possession starts at our own 10. Moves the ball deftly down the field to the Bengals 26, first and 10. Then AB gets called for an illegal crackback block. 15 yard penalty. So now we got first and 25 at the 41. Me. I thought Ben and the Steelers did a good job by gaining back 18 yards to get in make-able fg range. But you know, it's a depleted secondary, never mind the Bengals got pretty good pressure on the next few plays, Ben has to overcome 1st and 25 or he's a chump.

Then of course the next possession 2nd and 8 play from the Bengals 24, end zone pass to Martavis Bryant, couldn't throw a better pass, hits MB right in the hands. But of course the Bengals db is draped all over Martavis, has control of MB's left arm with one hand while the other is draped around the other tugging happily away at his (Bryant's) off shoulder. No call somehow? So on 3rd and 4 M.Johnson of the Bengals perfectly times the snap and comes off the edge untouched and sacks Ben for a loss of 5 and the Steelers settle for a fg. But of course as we all know, it's always Ben's fault when he gets sacked. Can we give credit to the other team's player for making a great play? Nope. Even though it wasn't a missed blitz on Ben's part, even though the sack occurred approx. 1.5 seconds from the snap ( so much for holding the ball too long) it's on Ben. The Steelers were forced to punt on the next possession after having moved the ball from their own 20 to just inside Bengal territory where it bogged down and the Steelers couldn't convert a 3rd and 4.

Now I don't know, but even with a few injuries I don't think the Bengals defense is exactly a toothless tiger. So in summary of the 4 first half possessions, 3 scores, should have been 17 points, but still was 13, this against a defense giving up on average 16 an entire game. One punt, but still moved the ball from deep in your own territory to where you could punt the Bengals to their own 2 yard line. Is that really a failure in a divisional road game? Bad first half by "Big Bum"? ( as one "clever" PPG reader always calls him in any article concerning the Steelers in ther comments section)

The second half is a different animal. As we know the defense scores a TD to go up 23-7, and then it seemed as though the Steelers offense didn't play with the same urgency. Which is often the case when teams extend out to a big lead. Really the only time in the second half where the offense played with any real urgency was on the possession after the Bengals scored a fg to close the gap to 23-10. The Steelers took the ball at their own 23 and moved the ball to the Bengals 14 before settling for a fg. But the big thing about this possession was they used up over 7 minutes of clock and answered fg for fg to retake a 16 lead. So to me even though the drive stalled in the red zone this was a successful drive. ( again I think you got to factor in quality of opponent to some extent here)

Anyway bottom line is we converted 8-14 third downs on the day, moved the ball well all day. Only punted twice, and never put our defense in a bind by giving the Bengals good starting field position.

So if you had Ben or AB or MB on your fantasy team yeah I get it, sucks for you today. But if you watch the game, assess Ben's play by how the game transpired, how he produced when it was essential, and see that performance as wanting, then I just don't think you're being reasonable or understand what's going on out there.

Sorry not trying to be uncivil, but I just can't see how Ben was not good enough yesterday? :noidea:

[polamalubeast]

We can not just judge a QB only on the ratio of TD / INT.

Vick had 2 TD, 0 INT against the Ravens this year, but the offense(and Vick) was awful in this game.

Yesterday, the Steelers have not scored points in only 3 drives and they were great on 3rd down.

[tube517]

I think I'd rather have Ben playing like this now, with the OL/OL coach and yes, even Haley. Haley gives Ben more control over the offense than his Uncle Bruce and his "enemy", Whis :chuckle:

I'll admit I'd like to see Ben take the 1st down over the long bomb sometimes. Yet how many times do we complain "Oh, he was wide open down the field".

Should he clean some of those up? Sure.

[Craic]

I was a bit sardonic, but not uncivil. Regardless I knew Ben's game would be downgraded by some for lack of touchdown passes. And because we kicked more fg's than we would like.
Nope, at least not from me. Ben's job is to get them into the endzone. I don't care if he does it through the air or hands off the ball. His job is to make sure the offense puts up points, and he did that.




Sorry not trying to be uncivil, but I just can't see how Ben was not good enough yesterday? :noidea:

No one is saying he wasn't "Good enough" yesterday. The point of the thread is Ben being "more efficient." All in all, I thought he had an average day, which is "good enough" at his skill level. But, then again, it felt like the entire team had an average game, except for our kicker, punter, Heath and DeAngelo. (and minus a few DBs).

[Psycho Ward 86]

We can not just judge a QB only on the ratio of TD / INT.

Vick had 2 TD, 0 INT against the Ravens this year, but the offense(and Vick) was awful in this game.

Yesterday, the Steelers have not scored points in only 3 drives and they were great on 3rd down.

the implication on my posts were about more than just TD/INT ratios but also just efficiency across the board

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I was a bit sardonic, but not uncivil. Regardless I knew Ben's game would be downgraded by some for lack of touchdown passes. And because we kicked more fg's than we would like. But let me address this a bit. Ben didn't throw a td pass agasinst an injury depleted Bengal secondary you say. And I say so what? He converted 3rd downs, he kept the sticks moving. Anyway let's further examine Ben's "failures". First drive 3rd and 3 at the Bengals 20, completes a 19 yarder to AB to the Bengals 1. 80 yard drive, all but 6 yards accounted for by passing yards. But since Ben hands off from the 1 yard line he's a failure here because he didn't exploit the "depleted" Bengal secondary for a TD pass?

Our second possession starts at our own 10. Moves the ball deftly down the field to the Bengals 26, first and 10. Then AB gets called for an illegal crackback block. 15 yard penalty. So now we got first and 25 at the 41. Me. I thought Ben and the Steelers did a good job by gaining back 18 yards to get in make-able fg range. But you know, it's a depleted secondary, never mind the Bengals got pretty good pressure on the next few plays, Ben has to overcome 1st and 25 or he's a chump.

Then of course the next possession 2nd and 8 play from the Bengals 24, end zone pass to Martavis Bryant, couldn't throw a better pass, hits MB right in the hands. But of course the Bengals db is draped all over Martavis, has control of MB's left arm with one hand while the other is draped around the other tugging happily away at his (Bryant's) off shoulder. No call somehow? So on 3rd and 4 M.Johnson of the Bengals perfectly times the snap and comes off the edge untouched and sacks Ben for a loss of 5 and the Steelers settle for a fg. But of course as we all know, it's always Ben's fault when he gets sacked. Can we give credit to the other team's player for making a great play? Nope. Even though it wasn't a missed blitz on Ben's part, even though the sack occurred approx. 1.5 seconds from the snap ( so much for holding the ball too long) it's on Ben. The Steelers were forced to punt on the next possession after having moved the ball from their own 20 to just inside Bengal territory where it bogged down and the Steelers couldn't convert a 3rd and 4.

Now I don't know, but even with a few injuries I don't think the Bengals defense is exactly a toothless tiger. So in summary of the 4 first half possessions, 3 scores, should have been 17 points, but still was 13, this against a defense giving up on average 16 an entire game. One punt, but still moved the ball from deep in your own territory to where you could punt the Bengals to their own 2 yard line. Is that really a failure in a divisional road game? Bad first half by "Big Bum"? ( as one "clever" PPG reader always calls him in any article concerning the Steelers in ther comments section)

The second half is a different animal. As we know the defense scores a TD to go up 23-7, and then it seemed as though the Steelers offense didn't play with the same urgency. Which is often the case when teams extend out to a big lead. Really the only time in the second half where the offense played with any real urgency was on the possession after the Bengals scored a fg to close the gap to 23-10. The Steelers took the ball at their own 23 and moved the ball to the Bengals 14 before settling for a fg. But the big thing about this possession was they used up over 7 minutes of clock and answered fg for fg to retake a 16 lead. So to me even though the drive stalled in the red zone this was a successful drive. ( again I think you got to factor in quality of opponent to some extent here)

Anyway bottom line is we converted 8-14 third downs on the day, moved the ball well all day. Only punted twice, and never put our defense in a bind by giving the Bengals good starting field position.

So if you had Ben or AB or MB on your fantasy team yeah I get it, sucks for you today. But if you watch the game, assess Ben's play by how the game transpired, how he produced when it was essential, and see that performance as wanting, then I just don't think you're being reasonable or understand what's going on out there.

Sorry not trying to be uncivil, but I just can't see how Ben was not good enough yesterday? :noidea:

i addressed all of this already. every QB has to deal with these things. Ben was "good enough" yesterday for that particular win. Its not going to be enough against certain opponents when you have the 2nd to last ranked pass defense in the league, and Ben is absolutely talented enough to compensate for that.

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Nope, at least not from me. Ben's job is to get them into the endzone. I don't care if he does it through the air or hands off the ball. His job is to make sure the offense puts up points, and he did that.





No one is saying he wasn't "Good enough" yesterday. The point of the thread is Ben being "more efficient." All in all, I thought he had an average day, which is "good enough" at his skill level. But, then again, it felt like the entire team had an average game, except for our kicker, punter, Heath and DeAngelo. (and minus a few DBs).

This.

[zulater]

Nope, at least not from me. Ben's job is to get them into the endzone. I don't care if he does it through the air or hands off the ball. His job is to make sure the offense puts up points, and he did that.





No one is saying he wasn't "Good enough" yesterday. The point of the thread is Ben being "more efficient." All in all, I thought he had an average day, which is "good enough" at his skill level. But, then again, it felt like the entire team had an average game, except for our kicker, punter, Heath and DeAngelo. (and minus a few DBs).

The game's flow dictated offensive urgency. When it mattered most, the first 3 drives, Ben was sharp as a razor. A pointless crackback block, and an inexplicable non call on an obvious pass interference in the end zone were the primary reasons the Steelers didn't open a 17-0 or even 21-0 lead. There's a difference between reasons and excuses. And it's as simple as that. To project yesterdays performance as a negative or to think it wasn't good enough going forward is ridiculous. :doh:

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Nope, at least not from me. Ben's job is to get them into the endzone. I don't care if he does it through the air or hands off the ball. His job is to make sure the offense puts up points, and he did that.





No one is saying he wasn't "Good enough" yesterday. The point of the thread is Ben being "more efficient." All in all, I thought he had an average day, which is "good enough" at his skill level. But, then again, it felt like the entire team had an average game, except for our kicker, punter, Heath and DeAngelo. (and minus a few DBs).

The game's flow dictated offensive urgency. When it mattered most, the first 3 drives, Ben was sharp as a razor. A pointless crackback block, and an inexplicable non call on an obvious pass interference in the end zone were the primary reasons the Steelers didn't open a 17-0 or even 21-0 lead. There's a difference between reasons and excuses. And it's as simple as that. To project yesterdays performance as a negative or to think it wasn't good enough going forward is ridiculous. :doh:

[Craic]

The game's flow dictated offensive urgency. When it mattered most, the first 3 drives, Ben was sharp as a razor. A pointless crackback block, and an inexplicable non call on an obvious pass interference in the end zone were the primary reasons the Steelers didn't open a 17-0 or even 21-0 lead. There's a difference between reasons and excuses. And it's as simple as that. To project yesterdays performance as a negative or to think it wasn't good enough going forward is ridiculous. :doh:

Please show me where I said it was negative, or not good enough.

Oh, and calling a point ridiculous, especially when the poster didn't make the point in the first place, is more than sardonic. Of course, sardonic, meaning "Grimly mocking or cynical" isn't being civil, either.

[NCSteeler]

I love the deep ball, but I worry about being able to put together clock killing game winning drives. Sometimes you gotta make a 12 play 99 yard drive. I thought the game plan yesterday was great many time finding AB underneath , knowing they would be protecting the deep ball and opening the under neath routes in the middle. Gotta give Some credit to Haley and Ben

[Mojouw]

I think that the problem is we have not all agreed on a definition of "efficient" for the sake of this conversation. Some seem to take it as a quantifiable term that is connected to points scored and time of possession. Others have taken it as a more qualitative variable linked to an "eyeball test" of what the defense was willing to give the offense and what the offense attempted to take. Not going to make much headway arguing different things.

I think that we need to determine what we are debating. I see a decent number of complaints that go something like this: "If they would have just picked up the 1st down on 3rd and 5 or less, rather than going for the home-run; they could have kept the chains moving, drove down the field, increased time of possession, and gotten some points."

I counter with 2 things and I'm not sure what they mean:
1. How many more points would anyone like this team to score? When they have their starting QB they are burying teams under 30+ points per game. I mean, I guess we could set the bar at 50...
2. They are stomping teams in time of possession lately.

For some other context, Ben is completing a ludicrous 67% of his passes on the season on a comical 8.7 yards per attempt. Those are video game stats. I shudder to think what his #'s would be if had been healthy all season. 5000 yards? 40 touchdowns?

I guess I am not certain I understand what the problem is? Or what it is that folks want to be different? Less interceptions? Okay. But Ben has always been an interception heavy "elite" QB. Kind of cut from a Jim Kelly or Brett Favre mold. Going to make some amazing throws for big plays and toss in a handful of ridiculous ones as well. Can't get one without the other.

[Craic]

I love the deep ball, but I worry about being able to put together clock killing game winning drives. Sometimes you gotta make a 12 play 99 yard drive. I thought the game plan yesterday was great many time finding AB underneath , knowing they would be protecting the deep ball and opening the under neath routes in the middle. Gotta give Some credit to Haley and Ben

I don't remember the check-down count for passes yesterday, but it was pretty high as well. I think that accounted for our good TOP.

[zulater]

Please show me where I said it was negative, or not good enough.

Oh, and calling a point ridiculous, especially when the poster didn't make the point in the first place, is more than sardonic. Of course, sardonic, meaning "Grimly mocking or cynical" isn't being civil, either.

You seemed to be in agreement with the OP in that Ben needs to take it a higher level in the upcoming weeks. If I misunderstood that then sorry.(Looking back I disagree with the average day point).


As far as civility. When you consider the premise of the thread I'm not sure civility is warranted. If you make a ridiculous point in a polite manner and forewarn no one is to mock you, do you have to respect that? I mean if I start a thread saying Mike Tomlin got his job strictly based on race and is among the worst coaches in the league, civil conversation only... should I be immune to being called out for idiocy? :doh:

Now getting back to Ben yesterday. 32 completions in 39 attempts. So that leaves us 7 incompletions. One of course we already discussed that being the missed interference call in the end zone. Perfect pass. With legal coverage it's a completion 99 out of 100 times. If it's not that's on the receiver, not the qb. With leaves us with 6 more incompletions. I remember at least 3 or 4 intentional throwaways. (say 3 for the sake of argument)The play wasn't there, so Ben did the smart thing and lived to make another play. I can remember one unintentional throw away. That was on a third down attempt to AB where Ben was forced out of the pocket scrambled right and threw left of his back foot and sailed the ball. You can mark that one against him I suppose but how many qb's are completing throws across the field to the left when forced to scramble right? If he had someone else open I sure didn't see it. I do remember he threw behind Wheaton once, and he threw wide of MB once too. But on that play it looked as if there was a miscommunication between Ben and Bryant. But for the sake of argument we'll call that a poor pass by Ben. He also got sacked twice. Once the aforementioned play where the DE times the snap count perfect and comes in untouched,(personally I thought it was a miracle he didn't fumble that play) the other time a coverage sack as Ben appeared to have no one open. Guess he could have thrown the ball away? so we'll mark him down for that as well. Then of course there was the improv pitch to Heath where Ben miraculously avoided the sack and turned a minus play into a 2 yard gain. And then there was the one scramble for a first down by Ben.

So all told including sacks , scrambles, and the improv pitch that's 43 times they passed or meant to pass. And Ben did the right thing or as close to right as the play would allow on about 40 of them. Seems pretty efficient to me. Not sure what I'm missing here? :noidea: You realize there are two teams on the field, and even back ups are professionals?

So if I got a little sardonic or uncivil, oh well. :coffee:

I'm done on this thread except for direct responses to reasonable questions.

[Craic]

You seemed to be in agreement with the OP in that Ben needs to take it a higher level in the upcoming weeks. If I misunderstood that then sorry.(Looking back I disagree with the average day point).

No problem. Like I said, Ben's "average" is good enough to win most games. And, in fact, "average" from Ben is what I expect. Does he need to take it to a higher level at the end of the season? Sure, but everyone does, and that includes Antonio Brown, our D Line, etc., simply because that's what happens coming into the playoffs. That's not a knock on Ben, rather, it's just a fact of the football season we're in. I'll say Brady and Gronk, and Carolina need to take it to a higher level as well, or they'll get beat in the playoffs.





As far as civility. When you consider the premise of the thread I'm not sure civility is warranted. If you make a ridiculous point in a polite manner and forewarn no one is to mock you, well? I mean if I start a thread saying Mike Tomlin got his job strictly based on race and is among the worst coaches in the league, civil conversation only... should I be immune to being called out for idiocy? :doh:

Civility should be the status quo of any thread, IMO, and his point isn't ridiculous. In fact, he backed it with a number of arguments. If someone asked about Tomlin getting the job due to the Rooney Rule, and put forward a bunch of arguments that had basis in facts, then no, it's not ridiculous.

Here's the OPs argument:



Argument 1 : I simply think he could stand to be better.


(capitulation 1) I don't think it's all his fault.


Argument 2. based on commentary from Gumbel/Trent Green today: Tomlin and Haley were encouraging Ben all season to make risky deep throws because oftentimes, it's the equivalent of a punt.

Argument 3. Ben is more than smart enough not to force some of these super deep passes that he's attempted that resulted in INT's against the patriots, rams, raiders, and the bengals (twice now).

Conclusion 1. picking up the 1st down/not turning the ball over would be a nice alternative to these thread through the eye of a needle throws 40+ yards downfield.


Anticipating Response 1. "it also sets up the deep pass later in the game,"

[B]
Countering Response: are uncharacteristic under/overthrows into double/triple coverage really setting up these passes?



CR Capitulation: Ben leads the league in 40+ yard completions in the league despite missing 4 and a half games.



Counter Argument: however, the vast majority of these completions were far more open than the ones that got picked off. maybe if Martavis continues to grow as a receiver and learns to highpoint the ball and be more physical we can return to these types of attempts, but for now, no one else thinks this offense would be better if it were more in the mold of last season with a higher mixture of intermediate/short passes thrown in for good measure?


Final conclusion: Ben is capable of having a season more along the lines of 4:1, 5:1, maybe even 6:1 in TD:INT ratio. and with these weapons, this O-line, i think it will be a reality if we play smarter ball. Ben's too good to have only had 2 30+ pass TD seasons so far for his career.

(capitulation 2) p.s on the flip side, just noticed that Ben has only fumbled once and not lost any this season


There is absolutely nothing ridiculous about his arguments. Are they all sound? All valid? Maybe, maybe not. But calling it ridiculous is dismissing an argument without engaging it, and there's plenty enough facts or reasonable deductions to engage.



Now getting back to Ben yesterday. 32 completions in 39 attempts. So that leaves us 7 incompletions. One of course we already discussed that being the missed interference call in the end zone. Perfect pass. With legal coverage it's a completion 99 out of 100 times. If it's not that's on the receiver, not the qb.

Can't agree here. the ball was a couple steps behind Bryant and on his inside shoulder. A well-thrown ball would have been to his outside shoulder and in front of him. With legal coverage, the DB still have great position, between Bryant and the ball. Furthermore, the ball hung up enough to allow a second DB to come in and clean up. Had Bryant touched the ball, there's a very good chance it would have been knocked out of his hands due to placement. In short, while it wasn't necessarily a bad pass, it wasn't a good one either.

. . .

Wife said we gotta go, can't finish this now, but we can at least continue the conversation from here.

[zulater]

No problem. Like I said, Ben's "average" is good enough to win most games. And, in fact, "average" from Ben is what I expect. Does he need to take it to a higher level at the end of the season? Sure, but everyone does, and that includes Antonio Brown, our D Line, etc., simply because that's what happens coming into the playoffs. That's not a knock on Ben, rather, it's just a fact of the football season we're in. I'll say Brady and Gronk, and Carolina need to take it to a higher level as well, or they'll get beat in the playoffs.






Civility should be the status quo of any thread, IMO, and his point isn't ridiculous. In fact, he backed it with a number of arguments. If someone asked about Tomlin getting the job due to the Rooney Rule, and put forward a bunch of arguments that had basis in facts, then no, it's not ridiculous.

Here's the OPs argument:



There is absolutely nothing ridiculous about his arguments. Are they all sound? All valid? Maybe, maybe not. But calling it ridiculous is dismissing an argument without engaging it, and there's plenty enough facts or reasonable deductions to engage.




Can't agree here. the ball was a couple steps behind Bryant and on his inside shoulder. A well-thrown ball would have been to his outside shoulder and in front of him. With legal coverage, the DB still have great position, between Bryant and the ball. Furthermore, the ball hung up enough to allow a second DB to come in and clean up. Had Bryant touched the ball, there's a very good chance it would have been knocked out of his hands due to placement. In short, while it wasn't necessarily a bad pass, it wasn't a good one either.

. . .

Wife said we gotta go, can't finish this now, but we can at least continue the conversation from here.

At worst Ben did as good as the play would allow 38 of 43 times on plays that were intended to be passes. Pretty amazing numbers if you ask me. Inefficient? Not hardly.

On the interception for the sake of argument I'll concede Ben made a poor decision and poor pass. ( but I still think there's an argument to be made that a defensive infraction occurred.

However on the end zone throw to Bryant I wont yield an inch and will unflinchingly tell you you're flat out wrong to suggest Ben wasn't superb on everything about that play. Start with the fact that it was a 2nd down play. So therefore the argument that you can't risk that on 3rd down goes right out the window. Second the defender had no play on the ball! That's why he chose to take out the receivers arms, both of them! Illegally! Legally defended the play's a touchdown! As is- properly called it's pass interference, first and goal at the one! It wasn't one of those well it was close you got to let them play type plays. The defender was beat!!!He had no play other than pass interference! I guarantee the db puts up little to nor argument if the play is called properly! The trade off of giving the Steelers first and goal at the one was worth the penalty of keeping the sure score off the board!

[Mojouw]

I think we are getting lost in the details of individual plays here. It seems that the original question that started this all is more of a process question than a nit-pick specific plays type of thing.

1. What are we defining as "efficient"? In other words, what is the goal for the offense and the quarterback specifically? Need to ensure those goals are not mutually exclusive (e.g. more big plays and increased time of possession).

2. How are we identifying "inefficient"? Any pass over 15 yards that isn't completed? Only passes that result in INT's? Or is a more qualitative assessment in order - something along the lines of "I may not be able to define it, but I know a low percentage inefficient passing play when I see one" type of benchmark?

3. Finally, how does the offense (throw out the games with Landry Jones and maybe discount Ben's first game back from injury) compare to other offenses that are regarded as worthy of emulation?

[zulater]

I know I said I was done, but I have to add this one thing. As per usual on the day after the game I go over to Profootballfocus and see what they had to say about the game. I find them useful and interesting but far from infallible. But anyway even before you get to this week's game analysis, on their home page they have a days index. On today's index they have the season to date top 10 qb's in the NFL for the 15 season.

3 guesses who's at top with a 99.9 grade. :countdown: (not sure what the highest attainable grade is in their system is?)

A few hints. It's not Tom Brady, he's 3rd at 95.2. Nope not Cam either. He's 5th at 85.8. OK hints are done. You got to guess, or you could simply go to their site and cheat, er I mean check for yourself. :lol:

Ok, now that I've introduced the impartial observer I will take my leave of the thread.:bananalama:

[polamalubeast]

The Steelers scored 176 points in the last 5 games and they had at least 450 yards of offense in four of its games and at least 30 points in every game.

Yes, sometimes turnovers are frustrating, but I can live with that when the offense produces like that for the rest of the time.

The efficiency and time of possession can be overrated sometimes.

[Dissolv]

My civil response:

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Ben isn't a weak area that needs improvement on this team. He is its strength. His stats are up, his mistakes are down, and I am not seeing at all what you are in the OP. Is the offense different than last year? Yes. We have better receivers. And they can all get the long ball. So the long ball is part of the game -- because we can. Flip the field, get TD's, and most importantly -- allow the defense to play from ahead to open up their playbook. It's the right thing for this team. Next year, even if we have the same guys back, it will be a slightly different team, so maybe we get different tweaks.

If you want to talk about where this team can improve, Ben is literally the last place to dig for more efficiency.


Dissolv

[plenewken]

I'll take a couple of deep pass INTs by Ben anyday if him and the whole offense continue to play the way they've played lately. Ben first series yesterday was just awesome.

[Craic]

At worst Ben did as good as the play would allow 38 of 43 times on plays that were intended to be passes. Pretty amazing numbers if you ask me. Inefficient? Not hardly.

On the interception for the sake of argument I'll concede Ben made a poor decision and poor pass. ( but I still think there's an argument to be made that a defensive infraction occurred.

However on the end zone throw to Bryant I wont yield an inch and will unflinchingly tell you you're flat out wrong to suggest Ben wasn't superb on everything about that play. Start with the fact that it was a 2nd down play. So therefore the argument that you can't risk that on 3rd down goes right out the window. Second the defender had no play on the ball! That's why he chose to take out the receivers arms, both of them! Illegally! Legally defended the play's a touchdown! As is- properly called it's pass interference, first and goal at the one! It wasn't one of those well it was close you got to let them play type plays. The defender was beat!!!He had no play other than pass interference! I guarantee the db puts up little to nor argument if the play is called properly! The trade off of giving the Steelers first and goal at the one was worth the penalty of keeping the sure score off the board!

Actually,

I was talking about the INT the whole time. (And yes, I'd also agree there was a DI, just that it didn't negate the fact that it wasn't a good pass).

As for 31 or whatever it was receptions, a lot of those were checkdowns. Now, in the large scheme, I'm more than happy with him throwing checkdowns when there's nothing down the field. I'm also not going to use checkdown passes to bolster what I think of his play, except him playing smart.

Again, at least for me, we're talking about a single element of Ben's game, which is the deep pass. I think he gambles a little too often. I also think it'd hurt his overall style if we tried to take that away from him. However, I would like to see him be a little more efficient in the deeper passes, or, at the very least, a little more discerning as to when to chuck it down the field.

Heck, I've even argued that I'm okay with the INT argued above, because I do agree with you and others that in that case, it really is like a punt. Better yet, a punt that pinned the other team deep in their own end. I'm just a little leery of seeing it happen on 3rd and 2 from our own 31 (a generalized down).

[Craic]

My civil response:

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Ben isn't a weak area that needs improvement on this team. He is its strength. His stats are up, his mistakes are down, and I am not seeing at all what you are in the OP. Is the offense different than last year? Yes. We have better receivers. And they can all get the long ball. So the long ball is part of the game -- because we can. Flip the field, get TD's, and most importantly -- allow the defense to play from ahead to open up their playbook. It's the right thing for this team. Next year, even if we have the same guys back, it will be a slightly different team, so maybe we get different tweaks.

If you want to talk about where this team can improve, Ben is literally the last place to dig for more efficiency.


Dissolv

But, again, no one is saying he's a weak area. Everyone would agree he's a strength. This discussion, from what I get from the OP, is simply about BEN. His talent, his ability vs. his production, what areas he can still improve on, etc. I think you're making it out to be a whole lot more than it is—a team discussion, rather than a BEN discussion.

[Dissolv]

I understood it, and disagreed with it. When you have a peak performer, at the top of his game, it is futile to try to get more out of him. Ben is not just "top 5" any more. When not injured (or just coming back), he may be the very best in the league right now. Just look at his work last game -- it was insane.

It would be far more productive looking at another player, or the team as a whole.

Now is Ben working on getting better? I am sure. Are his coaches pushing him? Yes they are -- I assume. But you are squeezing blood from a stone at this point.


Dissolv

[zoneblitzerII]

Ben has two throws he struggles with: the super deep ball and crossing routes. Too often his deep ball is short forcing his receivers to turn back to the ball instead of running under it. On his crossing routes, he throws late, behind the receiver and doesn't lead them to the ball. This speaks to a slow down of his reaction and response time in that he's throwing to where he thinks his receivers are or will be but they have already travelled beyond that point. For a player at this level of success it may be nitpicking but this is what the coaches do. They all see that on tape. They go back and see that on his one INT against the Bengals the receiver had a step on his man but had to turn right and behind to reel it in. Ben will recognize that if he led his wideout properly he would've had it. They'll make a note of it and come back and try it again next week. It is what it is with Ben. He's still a damn fine QB with a couple of kinks in his game just like the rest of them.

[tube517]

676772721468936192

676439961835610116

[teegre]

Here's an analogy...

In the late 90's, Tony Gwynn would seek out and discuss batting technique with guys like Nomar and Ichiro. Gwynn had won more batting titles in the 90s alone, than those two combined in their careers... yet, Gwynn always sought to get better.

SUMMATION:
You can always improve... (which I believe is PsychoWard's point).

[Mojouw]

So on the "super deep ball" define "struggles". Other than an imaginary perfect robotic deep throwing cybernetic QB from the future, who is better? I'm not saying that Ben is the best, but no matter what statistical criteria you select, I know that Ben is easily top 5 and likely top 3 currently playing.

Now if you want to select a more qualitative standard, such as "I see other guys do it better". Is that in only highlights or in actual game action week in and week out?

Point being, Ben underthrows some throws and is late on others - no doubt. But is he underthrowing or later more or less often than other QBs? I suspect the answer is that he is doing better than most.

[Psycho Ward 86]

But, again, no one is saying he's a weak area. Everyone would agree he's a strength. This discussion, from what I get from the OP, is simply about BEN. His talent, his ability vs. his production, what areas he can still improve on, etc. I think you're making it out to be a whole lot more than it is—a team discussion, rather than a BEN discussion.

“No problem. Like I said, Ben's "average" is good enough to win most games. And, in fact, "average" from Ben is what I expect. Does he need to take it to a higher level at the end of the season? Sure, but everyone does, and that includes Antonio Brown, our D Line, etc., simply because that's what happens coming into the playoffs. That's not a knock on Ben, rather, it's just a fact of the football season we're in. I'll say Brady and Gronk, and Carolina need to take it to a higher level as well, or they'll get beat in the playoffs.



As far as civility. When you consider the premise of the thread I'm not sure civility is warranted. If you make a ridiculous point in a polite manner and forewarn no one is to mock you, well? I mean if I start a thread saying Mike Tomlin got his job strictly based on race and is among the worst coaches in the league, civil conversation only... should I be immune to being called out for idiocy?
Civility should be the status quo of any thread, IMO, and his point isn't ridiculous. In fact, he backed it with a number of arguments. If someone asked about Tomlin getting the job due to the Rooney Rule, and put forward a bunch of arguments that had basis in facts, then no, it's not ridiculous.

Here's the OPs argument:
Argument 1 : I simply think he could stand to be better.
(capitulation 1) I don't think it's all his fault.

Argument 2. based on commentary from Gumbel/Trent Green today: Tomlin and Haley were encouraging Ben all season to make risky deep throws because oftentimes, it's the equivalent of a punt.

Argument 3. Ben is more than smart enough not to force some of these super deep passes that he's attempted that resulted in INT's against the patriots, rams, raiders, and the bengals (twice now).

Conclusion 1. picking up the 1st down/not turning the ball over would be a nice alternative to these thread through the eye of a needle throws 40+ yards downfield.


Anticipating Response 1. "it also sets up the deep pass later in the game,"

Countering Response: are uncharacteristic under/overthrows into double/triple coverage really setting up these passes?

CR Capitulation: Ben leads the league in 40+ yard completions in the league despite missing 4 and a half games.

Counter Argument: however, the vast majority of these completions were far more open than the ones that got picked off. maybe if Martavis continues to grow as a receiver and learns to highpoint the ball and be more physical we can return to these types of attempts, but for now, no one else thinks this offense would be better if it were more in the mold of last season with a higher mixture of intermediate/short passes thrown in for good measure?

Final conclusion: Ben is capable of having a season more along the lines of 4:1, 5:1, maybe even 6:1 in TD:INT ratio. and with these weapons, this O-line, i think it will be a reality if we play smarter ball. Ben's too good to have only had 2 30+ pass TD seasons so far for his career.

(capitulation 2) p.s on the flip side, just noticed that Ben has only fumbled once and not lost any this season
There is absolutely nothing ridiculous about his arguments. Are they all sound? All valid? Maybe, maybe not. But calling it ridiculous is dismissing an argument without engaging it, and there's plenty enough facts or reasonable deductions to engage.

Now getting back to Ben yesterday. 32 completions in 39 attempts. So that leaves us 7 incompletions. One of course we already discussed that being the missed interference call in the end zone. Perfect pass. With legal coverage it's a completion 99 out of 100 times. If it's not that's on the receiver, not the qb.
Can't agree here. the ball was a couple steps behind Bryant and on his inside shoulder. A well-thrown ball would have been to his outside shoulder and in front of him. With legal coverage, the DB still have great position, between Bryant and the ball. Furthermore, the ball hung up enough to allow a second DB to come in and clean up. Had Bryant touched the ball, there's a very good chance it would have been knocked out of his hands due to placement. In short, while it wasn't necessarily a bad pass, it wasn't a good one either.

. . .

Wife said we gotta go, can't finish this now, but we can at least continue the conversation from here.”

Here's an analogy...

In the late 90's, Tony Gwynn would seek out and discuss batting technique with guys like Nomar and Ichiro. Gwynn had won more batting titles in the 90s alone, than those two combined in their careers... yet, Gwynn always sought to get better.

SUMMATION:
You can [B]always improve... (which I believe is PsychoWard's point).



Everything I want to say is basically coming straight out of Craic's mouth. It's like he read my mind. I'm not sure how much more I can refine my point than all of this and the afore mentioned quotes. Btw, that middle section of text is all Craic's writing, its just an editing error to be clear.

Here's what I think a lot of people may be upset about. Ben's been slighted by the masses his entire career. He goes 13-0 as a rookie, wins OROY, and has one of the best seasons by a rookie QB ever. He gets downplayed as a result and called a game manager with a great surrounding cast.

The following season he wins the superbowl and plays great football down the stretch to get us there, only to play poorly once were in the big dance. Again, he gets downplayed as a result and called a game manager with a great surrounding cast.

2006, a mass of injuries, and more throws than ever before and Ben has a bad season, reinforcing this stereotype of him being overrated.

This pattern continues without improvement really until maybe after 2008, and then takes a big leap starting last season. However, us steeler fans tire for the day that he TRULY gets recognized by consensus up there with the Brady's and Rodger's of the world. I think we as steeler fans have spent so much time and effort defending him that we've gotten to a point where we dont wont to look at miniscule flaws to his game out of fear of discrediting what he's accomplished.

I'm not here to do that, I simply think he can be better, and for the life of me, do not understand why that could come off as ridiculous. I find it more ridiculous that some see him as incapable of correcting these small nitpicks to his game. Ben has taken his game to the next level every couple of years in the league. I don't see why he cant do it again

[Psycho Ward 86]

Fellas, the misunderstanding in this thread is that I'm arguing against Ben's greatness, when in fact I'm acknowledging it. These statistics by tube517 are amazing. I simply think Ben is great enough to take his game to an even higher level. (this isnt necessarily targeted towards you tube517)


I can almost guarantee someone will bump this thread in the future after Ben has some crazy record setting season as if to say "aha, you look stupid now" when all it would really be doing is asserting my original point

[86WARD]

Aaron Rodgers could be more efficient. Tom Brady could be more efficient.

[tube517]

Bump (just kidding) :chuckle:


And Psycho, I was only posting to continue the discussion. Not even disagreeing with you at all.


And I think since his suspension, (He worked out with George Whitfield) he has been improving greatly despite the crap OL's he has had. He finally gets a decent healthy OL in 2014 and he is able to really show his greatness. Not that he wasn't great before. He improved and has kept improving.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Aaron Rodgers could be more efficient. Tom Brady could be more efficient.

What does this have to do with Ben

[Psycho Ward 86]

As far as civility. When you consider the premise of the thread I'm not sure civility is warranted. If you make a ridiculous point in a polite manner and forewarn no one is to mock you, do you have to respect that? I mean if I start a thread saying Mike Tomlin got his job strictly based on race and is among the worst coaches in the league, civil conversation only... should I be immune to being called out for idiocy? :doh:



how is that even comparable? i havent downplayed that Ben is a top flight QB. In fact, ive stated several times he is VERY GOOD. Ive stated my reasoning quite thoroughly instead of just blurting things out and waiting for chaos to ensue. i respect your opinion, please respect mine.


i find it strange that some who claim to disagree with my opinion arent even denying that Ben could be better, only passing along an "are you kidding me right now??" type of rhetoric. otherwise i think this is an interesting subject to look at.

[zulater]

how is that even comparable? i havent downplayed that Ben is a top flight QB. In fact, ive stated several times he is VERY GOOD. Ive stated my reasoning quite thoroughly instead of just blurting things out and waiting for chaos to ensue. i respect your opinion, please respect mine.


i find it strange that some who claim to disagree with my opinion arent even denying that Ben could be better, only passing along an "are you kidding me right now??" type of rhetoric. otherwise i think this is an interesting subject to look at.

The thread title could be the problem. The thread title says Ben could be more efficient. The last 4 games begs the question how? You also cited Ben's lack of TD passes for the season, and his TD to int ratio. Again on the season those particular numbers don't look great for this era. 15-9 not killing it. I get that.

But those numbers don't tell the story of his season to date imo. Ben's been unselfish inside the 5 and is content to let the rb's carry it in from there. And to me that's a great idea. Avoid hits and that's a high traffic area, it's easy for a ball to get tipped and intercepted as a result. Sometimes a particular stat can take a year off. I mean by every other measurable he's having a career year. Completion %- check, YPA- check PPG check. And let's not forget his interception numbers are slightly skewed by the first game back from injury where he clearly was effected by the injury. Throw out that game and his TD to int ratio is a much more respectable 14-7.

You also made some mention of his last game being "average", and have indicated he can and should play better. And to this point again I strongly disagree. Yeah his end of game numbers were underwhelming. But as I previously pointed out that's attributable to game circumstances. When it mattered most, when the games outcome was being decided, Ben was brilliant. On the first 3 possessions Ben couldn't have been sharper helping stake the Steelers to a 13-0 lead. And after that every time the Bengals would close the gap he would answer right back. Did the Steelers reel it in some after opening up the lead? Yeah to an extent they did. Would you like to take that interception back if you're Ben? Yeah you would, but the resulting field position the Bengals got out of that interception strongly contributed to the Steelers scoring the deciding TD a couple minutes later. So while you couldn't term the second half a masterpiece it sure was effective.

In conclusion I'm fine if Ben can keep his play right where it's been for the majority of this season. I really think he's playing at a level few have ever obtained already, maybe he can improve a little? But I think his efficiency is just fine.

[teegre]

I simply think he can be better, ... Ben has taken his game to the next level every couple of years in the league.

Indeed.

Tony Gwynn got better and better and better (until he simply got too old).

There was an article that I read recently, wherein it talks about how Ben has improved every single year, and specifically how the past 5 seasons, BB has gotten incredibly good... Like "best in the NFL" good. It detailed how BB can actually throw the ball better now than he did when he was younger... and that he will probably improve next year... and the next year (until his body breaks down).

Anyway, we should be seeing a couple of freakin' great years this season and the next two (or three).

[Craic]

The thread title could be the problem. The thread title says Ben could be more efficient. The last 4 games begs the question how? You also cited Ben's lack of TD passes for the season, and his TD to int ratio. Again on the season those particular numbers don't look great for this era. 15-9 not killing it. I get that.

But those numbers don't tell the story of his season to date imo. Ben's been unselfish inside the 5 and is content to let the rb's carry it in from there. And to me that's a great idea. Avoid hits and that's a high traffic area, it's easy for a ball to get tipped and intercepted as a result. Sometimes a particular stat can take a year off. I mean by every other measurable he's having a career year. Completion %- check, YPA- check PPG check. And let's not forget his interception numbers are slightly skewed by the first game back from injury where he clearly was effected by the injury. Throw out that game and his TD to int ratio is a much more respectable 14-7.

You also made some mention of his last game being "average", and have indicated he can and should play better. And to this point again I strongly disagree. Yeah his end of game numbers were underwhelming. But as I previously pointed out that's attributable to game circumstances. When it mattered most, when the games outcome was being decided, Ben was brilliant. On the first 3 possessions Ben couldn't have been sharper helping stake the Steelers to a 13-0 lead. And after that every time the Bengals would close the gap he would answer right back. Did the Steelers reel it in some after opening up the lead? Yeah to an extent they did. Would you like to take that interception back if you're Ben? Yeah you would, but the resulting field position the Bengals got out of that interception strongly contributed to the Steelers scoring the deciding TD a couple minutes later. So while you couldn't term the second half a masterpiece it sure was effective.

In conclusion I'm fine if Ben can keep his play right where it's been for the majority of this season. I really think he's playing at a level few have ever obtained already, maybe he can improve a little? But I think his efficiency is just fine.

I disagree with a few things here, but that's a heck of a good post in the spirit of the thread.

[MrPgh]

Ben sucks. Cut him.

[Psycho Ward 86]

The thread title could be the problem. The thread title says Ben could be more efficient. The last 4 games begs the question how? You also cited Ben's lack of TD passes for the season, and his TD to int ratio. Again on the season those particular numbers don't look great for this era. 15-9 not killing it. I get that.

But those numbers don't tell the story of his season to date imo. Ben's been unselfish inside the 5 and is content to let the rb's carry it in from there. And to me that's a great idea. Avoid hits and that's a high traffic area, it's easy for a ball to get tipped and intercepted as a result. Sometimes a particular stat can take a year off. I mean by every other measurable he's having a career year. Completion %- check, YPA- check PPG check. And let's not forget his interception numbers are slightly skewed by the first game back from injury where he clearly was effected by the injury. Throw out that game and his TD to int ratio is a much more respectable 14-7.

You also made some mention of his last game being "average", and have indicated he can and should play better. And to this point again I strongly disagree. Yeah his end of game numbers were underwhelming. But as I previously pointed out that's attributable to game circumstances. When it mattered most, when the games outcome was being decided, Ben was brilliant. On the first 3 possessions Ben couldn't have been sharper helping stake the Steelers to a 13-0 lead. And after that every time the Bengals would close the gap he would answer right back. Did the Steelers reel it in some after opening up the lead? Yeah to an extent they did. Would you like to take that interception back if you're Ben? Yeah you would, but the resulting field position the Bengals got out of that interception strongly contributed to the Steelers scoring the deciding TD a couple minutes later. So while you couldn't term the second half a masterpiece it sure was effective.

In conclusion I'm fine if Ben can keep his play right where it's been for the majority of this season. I really think he's playing at a level few have ever obtained already, maybe he can improve a little? But I think his efficiency is just fine.

What's wrong with the thread title? How could he be more efficient? Seriously, I just explained that several times with other posters adding on. By calling Ben an elite QB I'm already implying that the stats dont tell the whole story. I get that too. Otherwise I would have spent this entire thread talking about how average he is.

I made some mention of his last game being average? Nope, this is news to me. Again, a lot of these points arent actually addressing the points ive talked about or theyre overwriting them. If you're defending the part where Ben threw a pick that was essentially a coffin corner punt then you completely ignored what I had to say about that.

Not sure why this tidbit in bold is added at the end. Seems to me thats what ive been saying the entire time

[Craic]

What's wrong with the thread title? How could he be more efficient? Seriously, I just explained that several times with other posters adding on. By calling Ben an elite QB I'm already implying that the stats dont tell the whole story. I get that too. Otherwise I would have spent this entire thread talking about how average he is.

I made some mention of his last game being average? Nope, this is news to me. Again, a lot of these points arent actually addressing the points ive talked about or theyre overwriting them. If you're defending the part where Ben threw a pick that was essentially a coffin corner punt then you completely ignored what I had to say about that.

Not sure why this tidbit in bold is added at the end. Seems to me thats what ive been saying the entire time

I'm the one that called his last game average, because I thought it was. Average doesn't necessarily mean statwise, either. We've all seen a QB with great stats but has done very little on the field. Obviously, Ben has done a whole lot, but the idea is the same. From watching the game, Ben just seemed not to be 100 percent in the zone on Sunday. Maybe that's why he hit so many checkdowns (and if so, it speaks to his maturity and overall proof that he really is a very good, if not great QB—most QBs would keep forcing it, especially gunslinging QBs). Compare his game this week against the last two Colts games, which may have been two of his best games to date, and the difference is easier to see.

The more I think about it, the more I'd disagree with the word efficient. Ben's plenty efficient most of the time (every once in a while he has a bad game, most do). Instead, I'd say there's still room for Ben to grow when it comes to forcing his will on the other team throughout the game. He can do it, and we've seen him do it a number of times, but he's still not quite as consistent at it as I'd like to see. That's the one difference keeping him from the level of Peyton Manning (of years past) or Tom Brady* (if he hadn't cheated).

Would I trade Ben for either of those QBs? No. Because I like Ben's ability to react to plays breaking down a lot more than those other two (even in their prime), but it doesn't mean I don't see Ben as just not quite as consistent week in and week out at dominating the football field.

[86WARD]

What does this have to do with Ben

Of course Ben could be "more efficient". But so could the "BEST" QBs in the league. It's easy to say he could be more efficient without comparing him to the rest of the league and their efficiency throwing the deep ball.

I'd prefer they go for the gimme pass to get the first down too but when the coverage is up tight and there's only one safety over the top and he's on the far side of the field, Ben would be stupid not to take a 40 yard shot downfield to Bryant. He'd be really stupid. It's not a high percentage pass, but this teams not known for that. When was the last time they threw a simple quick slant to AB to convert a first down or a goal to go situation? Rarely. It's not their style.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Of course Ben could be "more efficient". But so could the "BEST" QBs in the league. It's easy to say he could be more efficient without comparing him to the rest of the league and their efficiency throwing the deep ball.

I'd prefer they go for the gimme pass to get the first down too but when the coverage is up tight and there's only one safety over the top and he's on the far side of the field, Ben would be stupid not to take a 40 yard shot downfield to Bryant. He'd be really stupid. It's not a high percentage pass, but this teams not known for that. When was the last time they threw a simple quick slant to AB to convert a first down or a goal to go situation? Rarely. It's not their style.

Well I feel comfortable putting him a small rung under Rodgers. He's the only QB I feel ok about doing that with. I'm going to try to narrow down some articles on this when I can, but Rodgers seems pretty tops in accordance with an eye test and a stat sheet. The packers are the only team ive watched a lot of other than the steelers being that im from wisconsin.

I dont see why it would be stupid for Ben to NOT take a shot down the field with one safety over the top. That's called double coverage most of the time. Bryant is as physically gifted as they come but he hasnt harnessed it yet. His ability to hand fight at the line, high point the ball on contested catches, and run through much smaller DB's is a little underwhelming given his stature. But the arrow still looks to be pointing way up on him

[86WARD]

Well I feel comfortable putting him a small rung under Rodgers. He's the only QB I feel ok about doing that with. I'm going to try to narrow down some articles on this when I can, but Rodgers seems pretty tops in accordance with an eye test and a stat sheet. The packers are the only team ive watched a lot of other than the steelers being that im from wisconsin.

I dont see why it would be stupid for Ben to NOT take a shot down the field with one safety over the top. That's called double coverage most of the time. Bryant is as physically gifted as they come but he hasnt harnessed it yet. His ability to hand fight at the line, high point the ball on contested catches, and run through much smaller DB's is a little underwhelming given his stature. But the arrow still looks to be pointing way up on him

But it's not true double coverage and if Bryant beats the tight coverage...he's got a free pass to the endzone.

[teegre]

A related thought...

I wonder what conversations Browns fans have about their QBs? More efficient... better at the long-ball... I bet it's more like: "Does he have a pulse???"

The point:
We have first world problems.

[zulater]

A related thought...

I wonder what conversations Browns fans have about their QBs? More efficient... better at the long-ball... I bet it's more like: "Does he have a pulse???"

The point:
We have first world problems.

More like is he sober, or hung over today?

[Psycho Ward 86]

More like is he sober, or hung over today?

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More like is he sober, or hung over today? Does he have money on the other team? Is he covertly meeting with Jerry Jones sometime later in the week?

Why would you be sober if you're a QB for the browns :lol:

[steel striker]

Every Qb wants to be more efficent but, think I his deep ball passing has gotten alot better. Plus there have been some drops as well and, sometimes Ben gets a little greedy trying for the homehun shot when a first down is all that is needed. Now if you had WR's like MB, AB, & Wheaton the deep ball is a good choice most of the time.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Is it just me or have we gotten away from the play action pass in recent years? With the way DWills is running, i dont see why not sprinkle a few once in a while

[Mojouw]

Is it just me or have we gotten away from the play action pass in recent years? With the way DWills is running, i dont see why not sprinkle a few once in a while

Maybe because they take longer to develop? If they give these WRs anymore lead time in getting downfield, Ben won't be able to get the ball far enough!

I honestly don't know.