Haley Explains Reasoning Behind Deep Pass Attempts On 3rd And Short

[tube517]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2015/12/steelers-third-down-deep-pass-attempts-todd-haley-ben-roethlisberger/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[Hawkman]

What I like is Ben's third and short, short yardage passes. 16 of 22 for 10 first downs and 4 tds.

"Field flippers"....great term.

[teegre]

It's different than when Arians would go "five wide" on third-&-inches, because there is actually a possibility that the Steelers might actually RUN the ball now.

Arians never ran the ball; so defenses just teed off on BB. Conversely, Haley can/will call a running play, and in turn, defenses can't sit back and play for the pass; defenses HAVE to account for the running back. Ergo... single coverage (and the potential for big plays).

[fansince'76]

It's different than when Arians would go "five wide" on third-&-inches, because there is actually a possibility that the Steelers might actually RUN the ball now.

Arians never ran the ball; so defenses just teed off on BB. Conversely, Haley can/will call a running play, and in turn, defenses can't sit back and play for the pass; defenses HAVE to account for the running back. Ergo... single coverage (and the potential for big plays).

But Cool Shades loves to run the wheels off of his RBs... :noidea:

[tube517]

But Cool Shades loves to run the wheels off of his RBs... :noidea:

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/files/2014/01/StrawMan2.jpg

[fansince'76]

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/files/2014/01/StrawMan2.jpg

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/L0FvZbcMU-Q/mqdefault.jpg

[tube517]

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/L0FvZbcMU-Q/mqdefault.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/522485330771845120/gK0H2djd_400x400.jpeg

[fansince'76]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/522485330771845120/gK0H2djd_400x400.jpeg

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/387/581/283.png

[teegre]

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/L0FvZbcMU-Q/mqdefault.jpg

That reminds me of a story...

I'm at the zoo one night, and the lion is running around. Obviously, a crowd gathers (because, the lions usually just lay there). This douche pushes his way past everyone, right to the very front, where he hold his daughter up, blocking everyone's view.

I'm off to the side, so it doesn't directoy affect me, but man alive! was he douchey.

Then, the lion starts to rub its face back and forth on the netting. My wife calls out, "Move back!!!... the lion is going to spray." Just as Douche yells something douchey at my wife... the lion turns around and sprays Douche from head to toe. I mean soaked... like he had fallen in a swimming pool.

I've never laughed harder.

[MrPgh]

But Cool Shades loves to run the wheels off of his RBs... :noidea:

Low-hanging fruit.

[fansince'76]

Low-hanging fruit.

http://www.rtba.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Spock-Illogical.jpg

:chuckle:

[Craic]

It's different than when Arians would go "five wide" on third-&-inches, because there is actually a possibility that the Steelers might actually RUN the ball now.

Arians never ran the ball; so defenses just teed off on BB.

It's a common myth for Steelers fans, but it's actually incorrect that Arians's offenses never ran the ball. In truth, Haley's offenses run the ball an average of three less runs per game than Arians's.



Year
Arians
Haley


1
511 Attempts/2168 Yards
412/1537


2
460/1690
394/1383


3
428/1793
423/1752


4
471/1924
Projected - 405/1969


5
434/1903




Average 29/118 - 4.07
Average 26/104 - 3.99 YPC



Arians's offenses also averaged more yards per game, and very slightly more yards per carry. AND, that was without having a stud running back in Bell as we've had in the last year and a half, and with putting up with the absolutely mess of an aging O line and untrained/unprepared backups Russ Grimm left us. Don't get me wrong, Arians had his problems like everyone else, but thinking he never ran the ball is absolute myth, when he actually ran the ball more than Haley.

EDIT - and as for "But Ben's scrambling on broken pass plays adds to Arians's run numbers": here's the stats:

Ben's runs before Arians: 2.9 runs per game
Ben's runs during Arians: 2.36 runs per game
Ben's runs during Haley: 1.91

So, even if Ben scrambles 1.4 times more per game (and this assumes all of Ben's runs are scrambles, rather than QB dives), Arians's offense STILL purposefully ran the ball about 1.5 times a game more than Haley.

[polamalubeast]

The problem of the Steelers under Bruce Arians was the o-line.

Arians shows this year that he is a very good offensive coach with Arizona.

Palmer has his best season of his career and the cards are first in points scored and this is Arians who is the playcaller on offense.

[Craic]

As a followup . . . I took a look at Ben's passing numbers:





Year



Attempts


Avg. Attempts per game




2004


295

21.07




2005
268
22.33



2006


469

31.26





2007


404

26.9





2008


469

29.31





2009


506

33.73





2010


389

32.41





2011



513



34.2





2012



449



34.5





2013



584



36.5





2014



608



38




2015
610 Projected
38.12



Average under Arians: 31.31 pass attempts per game
Average under Haley: 36.78 pass attempts per game.

Which, when averaged out. Arians's offense passes the ball .519 percent of the time. Haley's passes it .594 percent of the time. Hence - Arians offense = more run-oriented than Haleys.

[Hawkman]

But Cool Shades loves to run the wheels off of his RBs... :noidea:

Now if TT's is banned, then we can't mock him.......well........yes we can, but it's not as much fun.

[MrPgh]

http://www.rtba.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Spock-Illogical.jpg

:chuckle:

Such is life in the National Football League.

[zulater]

Ben doesn't get sacked nearly as much now as he did under BA. Particularly if you factor in passing attempts. BA is obviously a great coach. And Ben grew greatly under his tutelage. But anyone who can't see that both benefited greatly from moving on from one another just isn't paying attention. Ben was stagnant. So was BA. The change was necessary and beneficial to one and all.

[polamalubeast]

Ben doesn't get sacked nearly as much now as he did under BA. Particularly if you factor in passing attempts. BA is obviously a great coach. And Ben grew greatly under his tutelage. But anyone who can't see that both benefited greatly from moving on from one another just isn't paying attention. Ben was stagnant. So was BA. The change was necessary and beneficial to one and all.

agree

[Craic]

Ben doesn't get sacked nearly as much now as he did under BA. Particularly if you factor in passing attempts. BA is obviously a great coach. And Ben grew greatly under his tutelage. But anyone who can't see that both benefited greatly from moving on from one another just isn't paying attention. Ben was stagnant. So was BA. The change was necessary and beneficial to one and all.

I wouldn't argue with this at all. My point was simply that BA actually ran the ball more than Haley, but the common narrative is that he never ran the ball.

[zulater]

I wouldn't argue with this at all. My point was simply that BA actually ran the ball more than Haley, but the common narrative is that he never ran the ball.

I never disputed your point. I've come to appreciate that BA was and is a excellent coach.

But who can dispute that everyone has benefited moving on?

[teegre]

Craic, great posts.

That said, my only retort is: @Cleveland 2009.


Game. Set. Match. :lol:

[86WARD]

A few times I'd rather see the Steelers go for the high percentage short pass to attain the first down. But I get why they take the long shot. Last week on the first third and short, the one Ben missed on, the coverage totally called for Ben to take that shot. Man coverage, one S over the top and the coverage was close. Bryant against close coverage with little, to possibly no help, over the top, Ben HAS to take that shot every time!

- - - Updated - - -


I wouldn't argue with this at all. My point was simply that BA actually ran the ball more than Haley, but the common narrative is that he never ran the ball.

Could it be that the Steelers run the ball more effectively under Haley than they did with Arians? There is also more "explosiveness" on this team than there was on offense with Arians.

[polamalubeast]

A few times I'd rather see the Steelers go for the high percentage short pass to attain the first down. But I get why they take the long shot. Last week on the first third and short, the one Ben missed on, the coverage totally called for Ben to take that shot. Man coverage, one S over the top and the coverage was close. Bryant against close coverage with little, to possibly no help, over the top, Ben HAS to take that shot every time!

- - - Updated - - -



Could it be that the Steelers run the ball more effectively under Haley than they did with Arians? There is also more "explosiveness" on this team than there was on offense with Arians.

In 2012 and 2013 it was not the case but since last year this is the case....The Steelers lead the NFL right now with an average of 4.9 yards per run!

[fansince'76]

Could it be that the Steelers run the ball more effectively under Haley than they did with Arians? There is also more "explosiveness" on this team than there was on offense with Arians.

I think Munchak has had a lot more to do with that than Haley. The OL is simply playing much better since he took the reins and it all starts up front. For example, I remember that Ben was well on his way to a career high for sacks in a season about halfway through 2013 before that idiot Bicknell was effectively stripped of his duties. And I really noticed no appreciable difference in the offense's effectiveness between Arians' tenure and Haley's first two years on the job (2012-13).

From November 1, 2013:


The schemes have changed, but the beatings have remained the same for Ben Roethlisberger.

Actually, they’ve gotten worse.

The Steelers quarterback is getting sacked at a higher rate than when he was playing under coordinator Bruce Arians, who was criticized for not sufficiently protecting the investment.

According to Ed Bouchette of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the 26 sacks Roethlisberger has absorbed so far puts him on pace for 59, well beyond his career-high of 50 — if he makes it that long.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/01/ben-roethlisberger-taking-hits-at-record-rates/

The coach this team needs to keep is Munchak, whatever the cost. And if Tomlin is ever let go, Munchak is the one who needs to be promoted to HC, not Haley.

[86WARD]

I tend to agree with you. I don't think Haley has as much to do with it as personnel and Munchak. I was just generalizing more than anything. They are definitely in a better position with this team than they were with Arians team...player and coach-wise.

[Mojouw]

Retain Munchak, absolutely. Head coach? That really didn't work well last time. If the Steelers ever decide to move on from Tomlin, I don't see a replacement on staff. Interesting to see or speculate on what their OC hire would be if and when Haley leaves. The current QB coach? Outside the organization?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Craic]

I never disputed your point. I've come to appreciate that BA was and is a excellent coach.

But who can dispute that everyone has benefited moving on?

Yep, and that I wasn't disputing as well. I think the problem we're having, Zu, is that we just have no idea what to do when we agree with each other. :chuckle:


Could it be that the Steelers run the ball more effectively under Haley than they did with Arians? There is also more "explosiveness" on this team than there was on offense with Arians.

I wondered that as well, especially after remembering how often our RBs fell behind the LOS. But, that would also lead to a higher YPC average, and it doesn't. IMO, the real issue, as FS states, is the Oline finally solidified, which fixed 95% of the problems. Munchak gets a whole lot of credit for it, but a few others should as well, bringing in Pouncey, DeCastro, etc.


~snip~

Honestly, I wouldn't want to see either of them get it. Call me old fashioned, but it seems the idea of going out and finding a young, defensive OC, and then putting them in place for a decade or two has a pretty good record. Also, I really don't want to see Munchak with more responsibilities. We've seen the O line as a mess. I want to keep him focused on it. In a 3-4 years, when Ben is talking retirement and we're having to bring in a new QB, having a line that can protect him is going to be vitally important. I'd hate to see Munchak's responsibilities split during that transition.