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hawaiiansteeler
12-10-2015, 01:34 PM
Did Steelers just stumble upon a long-term answer at left tackle?

Jeremy Fowler, ESPN Staff Writer

http://a1.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2F2015%2F1209%2Fr34668_1296x729_16% 2D9.jpg&w=570

Steelers left tackle Alejandro Villanueva "has a chance to be a pretty special player," said former Pro Bowl center LeCharles Bentley.

PITTSBURGH -- Turning a journeyman practice squad player into a serviceable option on the 53-man roster is considered a mild upset.

Turning one into a potential long-term solution at left tackle reaches David Tyree levels of difficulty.

This is happening in Pittsburgh.

Alejandro Villanueva had spent time with three different teams before Steelers coach Mike Tomlin spotted him across from him during the national anthem in August 2014. Villanueva was a 6-foot-9 defensive lineman for the Eagles. He had already been released by the Bengals, who worked Villanueva at tight end.

Ten days later, Tomlin signed him to the practice squad. About four months later, Villanueva had a reserve/futures contract. Nearly a year after that, Villanueva is catching the attention of skilled offensive line evaluators who see potential greatness in him.

Once an intriguing offseason story about a former Army Ranger who did three tours in Afghanistan, Villanueva has turned into something more:

A player.

“He moves so well for his size,” said former Pro Bowl center LeCharles Bentley, who runs an Arizona-based offensive line academy for NFL prospects. “You hearken back to Orlando Pace, Jonathan Ogden; for their size they were able to move in a manner to someone much smaller. [Villanueva] is a very large human being but doesn’t move like a large, lumbering person.

“He has a chance to be a pretty special player.”

Bentley said Villanueva is still relatively raw when it comes to technique, but he likes his mean streak and the fact his game hasn’t been tainted. Learning the left tackle position in his 20s can actually be an advantage, Bentley said, because the Steelers can teach him one way.

To be sure, previous starter Kelvin Beachum, out for the year with a torn anterior cruciate ligament, is a solid left tackle. But Beachum is a free agent after this season, and Villanueva is cheaper. He is under contract at $525,000 next year.

The Steelers could decide to keep both, but Villanueva isn’t going anywhere in 2016.

Villanueva has been on a crash course to become valuable in the eyes of Steelers coaches and higher-ups. He asks guard David DeCastro questions that border on annoyance, from postgame nutrition to weightlifting to recovering from a bad game. Villanueva gave up two sacks in his debut at Kansas City. DeCastro told him that he also had a rough rookie game, against Dallas. It gets better.

As Villanueva has found out, most franchises aren’t this patient.

“I’ve been trying to get in the NFL for five years and no one really ever gave me a chance [before Pittsburgh],” Villanueva said. “You always have something inside of you that says you can still do it. I’ll try to do my best to be as appealing to the front office as possible.”

That process includes studying elite left tackles -- particularly the Browns’ Joe Thomas and the Cowboys’ Tyron Smith -- inside the Steelers’ video room. He’s working on “staying square” to the target like Thomas does. He wants “great punch” and perfectly bent knees like Smith.

After gaining around 100 pounds in the past few years, Villanueva said he’s lost a few pounds and has leveled out at around 330, where he wants to stay. He’s learning how to manage a left tackle’s frame.

to read rest of article:

http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/16685/did-steelers-just-stumble-upon-a-long-term-answer-at-left-tackle

Steeldude
12-10-2015, 01:50 PM
Of course he would have rotted on the bench and ended up elsewhere if Beachum didn't suffer his season ending injury. Hopefully they can now re-sign Beachum to a cheap contract.

86WARD
12-10-2015, 02:22 PM
It would be nice to have Beachum playing on that OL as well next year.

steelreserve
12-10-2015, 02:50 PM
If this saves us a few million dollars, it would be nice. Maybe we could spend that on a guy to help shore up our weak spots at DB or NT.

I like Beachum and all, but let's be honest, he's not an All-Pro, he's just pretty good. And looks a hell of a lot better thanks to a long stretch of shaky play by the guys before him. So if it's spend $7M to keep him after a major injury, and send Villanueva back to the bench ... or take my chances with Villanueva and add a proven starter somewhere else, well, that's a no-brainer.

If we could get Beachum for less than that and move him over to guard, that would be great for the flexibility we'd gain.

Psycho Ward 86
12-10-2015, 02:57 PM
Of course he would have rotted on the bench and ended up elsewhere if Beachum didn't suffer his season ending injury. Hopefully they can now re-sign Beachum to a cheap contract.

Are you saying he's already better than Beachum? More ceiling for sure, but doesn't seem nearly THAT good yet. And Beachum's ACL tear isnt going to give him any trouble attracting potential suitors. Good LT's are a prized commodity. I wanted Beachum re-signed at the beginning of the season but after seeing Villanueva play, I think if we need to let someone go, Beachum is a reasonable option. Can't keep every good player, and we have new contracts for Decastro, Antonio, Martavis, and Leveon on the horizon. Those alone will cost a fortune

Count Steeler
12-10-2015, 03:49 PM
Big V at LT, Beachum at LG, Pouncey at C, DeCastro at RG, Gilbert at RT.*

*Munchak remains as coach.

Sign me up.

zulater
12-10-2015, 03:54 PM
Are you saying he's already better than Beachum? More ceiling for sure, but doesn't seem nearly THAT good yet. And Beachum's ACL tear isnt going to give him any trouble attracting potential suitors. Good LT's are a prized commodity. I wanted Beachum re-signed at the beginning of the season but after seeing Villanueva play, I think if we need to let someone go, Beachum is a reasonable option. Can't keep every good player, and we have new contracts for Decastro, Antonio, Martavis, and Leveon on the horizon. Those alone will cost a fortune

I disagree. I think AV's recent play has been superior to this year's play of Beachum. I like Beachum, he's a quality character, a high motor over achiever who gives you all he has every game. But he was much more effective last year than he was this year before he got hurt. I think the league did their film study on Beach and found his vulnerabilities. Because of his lack of ideal height and weight I'm not sure there was a counter adjustment to be made on his part? I'm sure to some extent the same thing will happen to AV next year. The league will go over his film and find his weaknesses where they can be found and attack them. But with AV with his size being what it is I think his learning curve will absorb that, and he'll maintain his level of play at the least, and more likely continue to improve.

Hopefully they will keep Beachum though and convert him to guard. Foster is a UFA after this season and the Steelers have shown no intent on keeping him. I think AV and Beachum could make up an awesome left side of the line for the next half decade.

- - - Updated - - -


Of course he would have rotted on the bench and ended up elsewhere if Beachum didn't suffer his season ending injury. Hopefully they can now re-sign Beachum to a cheap contract.

You can never give the Steelers credit for anything can you? :doh: The guy wouldn't be in the league if Tomlin hadn't taken a shine to him. They converted him from college tight end, -practice squad DE to a functional NFL left tackle! We're talking longest of the long shots, and you cant see the Steelers are in line for credit? Smh

tube517
12-10-2015, 03:57 PM
Big V at LT, Beachum at LG, Pouncey at C, DeCastro at RG, Gilbert at RT.*

*Munchak remains as coach.

Sign me up.

REQUIRED!!!!

SteelerFanInStl
12-10-2015, 04:39 PM
I definitely like what I've seen of AV and am excited to see what he can become with the help of Munchak. Like others, I like Beachum at LG better than LT and better than Foster.

steelreserve
12-10-2015, 06:37 PM
The problem is this: if we want Beachum to stick around as a guard, the other offers he'll be receiving will be for starting left tackle money. That's not going to be worth it for a LG. More I think about it, the more it seems like a straight either/or choice between him and AV.

Regardless of that, absolutely THE most important thing for the offensive line is that we keep Munchak. I don't care if we have to pay him $10 million. That guy is probably singlehandedly saving us two or three high draft picks in the near future, and getting better play out of the group too. If only there was a DB guru like that ...

SteelerFanInStl
12-10-2015, 07:30 PM
Regardless of that, absolutely THE most important thing for the offensive line is that we keep Munchak. I don't care if we have to pay him $10 million. That guy is probably singlehandedly saving us two or three high draft picks in the near future, and getting better play out of the group too. If only there was a DB guru like that ...

Absolutely. He's the most important coach on this team, bar none.

zulater
12-10-2015, 08:04 PM
The problem is this: if we want Beachum to stick around as a guard, the other offers he'll be receiving will be for starting left tackle money. That's not going to be worth it for a LG. More I think about it, the more it seems like a straight either/or choice between him and AV.

Regardless of that, absolutely THE most important thing for the offensive line is that we keep Munchak. I don't care if we have to pay him $10 million. That guy is probably singlehandedly saving us two or three high draft picks in the near future, and getting better play out of the group too. If only there was a DB guru like that ...

Couldn't they put a one year transition tag on Beachum? Maybe use it to buy some time to negotiate a longer deal? Beachum is a good kid. I really think his preference would be to stay. Probably not going to happen though. But with Foster most likely gone and controlling Villenueva at such a small price I could see them making it happen. Next year the Steelers will have a lot of things going for them, I think they could be in line to be AFC favorites. You dont blow it over a few bucks and not have any plan at left guard. How smart do you look saving a few bucks by not signing either Beachum or Foster if your next left guard gets Ben blown up with a bad injury early in the season?

ALLD
12-10-2015, 08:24 PM
If Beechnut doesn't want to renegotiate his deal, so be it. AV just started playing LT, so he hasn't developed too many bad habits. He can at least be as good as Kevin. He will not be on the Steelers in 2017, that's for sure.

steelreserve
12-10-2015, 08:49 PM
Couldn't they put a one year transition tag on Beachum? Maybe use it to buy some time to negotiate a longer deal? Beachum is a good kid. I really think his preference would be to stay. Probably not going to happen though. But with Foster most likely gone and controlling Villenueva at such a small price I could see them making it happen. Next year the Steelers will have a lot of things going for them, I think they could be in line to be AFC favorites. You dont blow it over a few bucks and not have any plan at left guard. How smart do you look saving a few bucks by not signing either Beachum or Foster if your next left guard gets Ben blown up with a bad injury early in the season?

Well, for that matter, we could re-sign Beachum and he could mess up and get Ben hurt on a fluke play, or we could count on AV and then he tears up his knee in preseason, or any number of things. I hope that doesn't happen, but I don't know how you predict any of it.

I don't think the tranny tag is a good option in this case ... Beachum's contact situation kind of is what it is at this point, and I don't see his price going down unless he plays so badly we don't want him back anyway. If we were unsure what we had (like Worilds) or 100% we wanted to re-sign long-term (like Woodley), then maybe it makes sense. On the other hand, using the tranny and/or franchise tag hasn't tended to work out so well for us, either.

86WARD
12-10-2015, 09:44 PM
Big V at LT, Beachum at LG, Pouncey at C, DeCastro at RG, Gilbert at RT.*

*Munchak remains as coach.

Sign me up.

Second this plan!!

hawaiiansteeler
12-10-2015, 10:52 PM
Couldn't they put a one year transition tag on Beachum?

no, Beachum is an unrestricted free agent and free to sign with any other NFL team at the end of this season...

teegre
12-10-2015, 11:26 PM
You can never give the Steelers credit for anything can you? :doh: The guy wouldn't be in the league if Tomlin hadn't taken a shine to him. They converted him from college tight end, -practice squad DE to a functional NFL left tackle! We're talking longest of the long shots, and you cant see the Steelers are in line for credit? Smh

Nailed it.

Some people rejoice that thorn bushes have roses, while others choose to complain that rose bushes have thorns.

teegre
12-10-2015, 11:41 PM
1. Pay Munchak $10 million per year. There's no cap on coaches.

2. Sign both Beachum and DD to LT money. It's not much different than OG money, and they're worth it. That would solidify the O-line for five seasons.

AV - Beachum - Pouncey - DD - Gilbert

3. I'd also be fine with trading the 31st pick for Mike Pouncey.

AV - Pouncey - Pouncey - DD - Gilbert

Psycho Ward 86
12-10-2015, 11:50 PM
Couldn't they put a one year transition tag on Beachum? Maybe use it to buy some time to negotiate a longer deal? Beachum is a good kid. I really think his preference would be to stay. Probably not going to happen though. But with Foster most likely gone and controlling Villenueva at such a small price I could see them making it happen. Next year the Steelers will have a lot of things going for them, I think they could be in line to be AFC favorites. You dont blow it over a few bucks and not have any plan at left guard. How smart do you look saving a few bucks by not signing either Beachum or Foster if your next left guard gets Ben blown up with a bad injury early in the season?

what makes you think Foster is most likely gone yet think Beachum could be made to stay if Villanueva is still here? Foster wont be very expensive. The guy is a good, not great guard and thats exactly what we need with Pouncey and Gilbert costing big money, and Decastro about to get big money as well. Beachum will be looking to be a left tackle in this league because 1) thats mostly what he's played so for and 2) its a much more lucrative position than left tackle.

If Villanueva stays, i want Beachum to leave (not actually WANT him to, but realistically he has no reason to stay anymore and we cant afford him), and Foster to DEFINITELY get re-signed

- - - Updated - - -




3. I'd also be fine with trading the 31st pick for Mike Pouncey.

AV - Pouncey - Pouncey - DD - Gilbert


You know we have to take on his contract then too right? That's way too much money invested in the O-line. Id rather we re-sign a good, but not great LG in Foster for fairly cheap and use the rest of the money where we need it: on Antonio, Leveon, Decastro, and Martavis

teegre
12-10-2015, 11:56 PM
You know we have to take on his contract then too right? That's way too much money invested in the O-line. Id rather we re-sign a good, but not great LG in Foster for fairly cheap and use the rest of the money where we need it: on Antonio, Leveon, Decastro, and Martavis

I'd be fine with that. I'm a big fan of O-linemen. Use the Jarvis Jones money to pay him.



Plus, in 2010, my dream O-line was:

(LT) - DD - Pouncey - Pouncey - Gilbert

We are 4/5 of the way there.

katmandu
12-11-2015, 12:31 AM
THE most important thing for the offensive line is that we keep Munchak. I don't care if we have to pay him $10 million. That guy is probably singlehandedly saving us two or three high draft picks in the near future, and getting better play out of the group too. If only there was a DB guru like that ...Coach Munchak is the ace and an absolute Wizard ! Big V has a high ceiling and with Munchak's spell cast on him he will be a beast for years to come!

Let Harrison show him how to workout and lift weights "the Harrison way" and LOOK OUT !

Mojouw
12-11-2015, 11:34 AM
There is no way that AV is currently playing better than Beachum. One may be able to argue that he has the potential to be better than Beachum, but he is not there yet. AV actually lets pass rushers hit the QB. Beachum did not. It is that simple.

The biggest hurdle for AV is his sheer size. It will be hard for him to develop the technical adjustments and muscle memory to allow him to constantly win the leverage battle against pass rushers while maintaining speed/quickness.

Very difficult to be low man when you are starting at 6 foot 8 or whatever.

zulater
12-11-2015, 12:14 PM
There is no way that AV is currently playing better than Beachum. One may be able to argue that he has the potential to be better than Beachum, but he is not there yet. AV actually lets pass rushers hit the QB. Beachum did not. It is that simple.

The biggest hurdle for AV is his sheer size. It will be hard for him to develop the technical adjustments and muscle memory to allow him to constantly win the leverage battle against pass rushers while maintaining speed/quickness.

Very difficult to be low man when you are starting at 6 foot 8 or whatever.

You're stuck in 14. This year Beachum allowed mutiple qb hits and sacks. The last two games we got as good as play from the LT position as we did in any two games this season.

Mojouw
12-11-2015, 12:23 PM
You're stuck in 14. This year Beachum allowed mutiple qb hits and sacks. The last two games we got as good as play from the LT position as we did in any two games this season.

Fair enough. But AV is simply not enough of a finished product at this point to be considered better than Beachum. Every week, watch him closely. He can still get beat by basic pass rush moves and he really isn't that good in the run game yet, despite his size. He lunges, misses blocks, and is still a bit lost in space when moving to the second level. All in all, he plays like a brand new offensive lineman, which is exactly what he is. He projects to be pretty darn good, but that is all just a projection. If teams have indeed found the holes in Beachum's game after some film study, what are they going to do with AV? I mean I can see the holes in his game, what will NFL coaches spot?

It would be a very aggressive decision to hand over your blindside protection to someone as raw as AV long term. That being said, I can see how the cap money would force the Steelers to do just that. It will be interesting to watch play out. I just can not agree with the assertion that jettisoning Beachum is okay, because AV is better. Not now at least.

steelreserve
12-11-2015, 12:24 PM
There is no way that AV is currently playing better than Beachum. One may be able to argue that he has the potential to be better than Beachum, but he is not there yet. AV actually lets pass rushers hit the QB. Beachum did not. It is that simple.

The biggest hurdle for AV is his sheer size. It will be hard for him to develop the technical adjustments and muscle memory to allow him to constantly win the leverage battle against pass rushers while maintaining speed/quickness.

Very difficult to be low man when you are starting at 6 foot 8 or whatever.


I don't think the question is whether AV is better than Beachum. It's "Can AV get the job done well enough, and thereby bail us out of a potentially messy contract situation where Beachum basically had us over a barrel." If we can have Beachum back without creating money problems, everybody wants him back.

I don't know about the too-tall argument for an offensive tackle. For a defensive lineman, absolutely - you want to be built like a bowling ball. The same probably applies to a lesser extent to the interior offensive linemen. As a tackle, though, if you can use your size to keep the guy at arm's length and steer him outside, that's good enough. Just a different skill set that you might have to learn than a guy who's 6-2 or 6-3, but doesn't disqualify you from being good. In run blocking, it might be another story and maybe he'll always be at a disadvantage there. But on the other hand, it wasn't long ago that I remember people questioning whether Beachum was undersized for a tackle at 6-3.

Honestly, it seems like if you are not exactly 6-5, 320-330 pounds, someone is going to say that your frame is not right for the position, but there are plenty of good players on both sides of that range.

Mojouw
12-11-2015, 03:27 PM
I don't think the question is whether AV is better than Beachum. It's "Can AV get the job done well enough, and thereby bail us out of a potentially messy contract situation where Beachum basically had us over a barrel." If we can have Beachum back without creating money problems, everybody wants him back.

I don't know about the too-tall argument for an offensive tackle. For a defensive lineman, absolutely - you want to be built like a bowling ball. The same probably applies to a lesser extent to the interior offensive linemen. As a tackle, though, if you can use your size to keep the guy at arm's length and steer him outside, that's good enough. Just a different skill set that you might have to learn than a guy who's 6-2 or 6-3, but doesn't disqualify you from being good. In run blocking, it might be another story and maybe he'll always be at a disadvantage there. But on the other hand, it wasn't long ago that I remember people questioning whether Beachum was undersized for a tackle at 6-3.

Honestly, it seems like if you are not exactly 6-5, 320-330 pounds, someone is going to say that your frame is not right for the position, but there are plenty of good players on both sides of that range.

I actually agree with all of that. I am just concerned that AV is all potential and "what if he fulfills it" at this point. I remember when LT was a turnstile and do not want to move back to that point.

Count Steeler
12-11-2015, 09:47 PM
Beachum is way more valuable than Foster. Beachum is able to play every position on the line, including center. He has the head knowledge and the athleticism for every position. One of the best 7th round picks that I can remember. I don't think you need to throw LT money at him, but he is worth a lot because he can play any starting position and be moved around, if necessary.

I still think he could even play NT.

steelreserve
12-12-2015, 01:12 AM
I actually agree with all of that. I am just concerned that AV is all potential and "what if he fulfills it" at this point. I remember when LT was a turnstile and do not want to move back to that point.

I hear you, but at this point I think Villanueva would actually need to take a significant step back for us to be in that kind of a hole. He's not perfect, but he's adequate as-is.

I'm actually a little more worried about Beachum being fully capable after a major injury, and/or switching positions, especially if it's both. It's been about 50-50 with us for linemen making it all the way back from that kind of thing.

I guess the bright side is there's not really a bad choice here - no matter what we do, we'll be head and shoulders above the Jonathan Scott Shit Parade era.

Psycho Ward 86
12-12-2015, 12:35 PM
You're stuck in 14. This year Beachum allowed mutiple qb hits and sacks. The last two games we got as good as play from the LT position as we did in any two games this season.

yeah. TWO games. Beachum has been a good tackle for us for quite a while now. And as count steeler said, Beachum has ridiculous swing lineman value.

Albeit, i still think its better for the cap situation in the long run to let him go but its a shitty loss if you ask me

teegre
12-12-2015, 01:31 PM
I've stated this no less than twenty times, but it bears iteration:

Beachum is a very good LT.
Beachum would be an All-Pro LG.

He's one of the best picks (late round or otherwise) by this team in the past decade. He's smart, he can play all five O-line positions, and he's a gamer. Retain him, slide him to LG, win.

Shoes
12-12-2015, 02:31 PM
I've stated this no less than twenty times, but it bears iteration:

Beachum is a very good LT.
Beachum would be an All-Pro LG.

He's one of the best picks (late round or otherwise) by this team in the past decade. He's smart, he can play all five O-line positions, and he's a gamer. Retain him, slide him to LG, win.

+1

zulater
12-12-2015, 05:03 PM
yeah. TWO games. Beachum has been a good tackle for us for quite a while now. And as count steeler said, Beachum has ridiculous swing lineman value.

Albeit, i still think its better for the cap situation in the long run to let him go but its a shitty loss if you ask me

The last two games, against very good competition. When someone as green as grass shows the sort of rapid improvement that AV has displayed it's noteworthy to me. This guy has no business playing at the level that he's playing at now! Period. This guy wont regress because what I'm getting from him is that he's a natural at LT. Beachum was not a natural. He made himself into a good player by hard work and diligence. But there was always going to be a ceiling on him at that position. The best he was ever going to be once the league learned his tendencies was a bit above average. Against elite DE's he was going to need help from a chip from a rb or TE. You wait and see, having watched this last two games carefully AV in particular, running offensive plays back 4-5 times each to make sure I knew what I was talking about, AV is going to be real good, real soon. His arrow is climbing, and his arrow will go much higher than Beachum's could ever think of going. Mark my words, remember this post.

Psycho Ward 86
12-12-2015, 05:08 PM
The last two games, against very good competition. When someone as green as grass shows the sort of rapid improvement that AV has displayed it's noteworthy to me. This guy has no business playing at the level that he's playing at now! Period. This guy wont regress because what I'm getting from him is that he's a natural at LT. Beachum was not a natural. He made himself into a good player by hard work and diligence. But there was always going to be a ceiling on him at that position. The best he was ever going to be once the league learned his tendencies was a bit above average. Against elite DE's he was going to need help from a chip from a rb or TE. You wait and see, having watched this last two games carefully AV in particular, running offensive plays back 4-5 times each to make sure I knew what I was talking about, AV is going to be real good, real soon. His arrow is climbing, and his arrow will go much higher than Beachum's could ever think of going. Mark my words, remember this post.

uh, I actually agree with you on everything other than crowning him over 2 games. you seem to be under the impression im Anti-Villanueva. I see him as most likely being our LT for the foreseeable future. part of it also has to do with us having the economical convenience of not having him be a UFA for 2 more years.

zulater
12-12-2015, 09:16 PM
uh, I actually agree with you on everything other than crowning him over 2 games. you seem to be under the impression im Anti-Villanueva. I see him as most likely being our LT for the foreseeable future. part of it also has to do with us having the economical convenience of not having him be a UFA for 2 more years.

Funny how it's premature to "crown" someone after having observed them play quality football at the NFL level against quality opponents. Meanwhile no one blinks an eye when someone categorizes a college underclassmen as a can't miss stud. Guys like Tony Mandarich, Robert Gallery, Jake Long, you're not being premature or no one calls you out when you wax poetic about their future heroics.

Anyway I remember going back to the end of 2012 when the board was fretting about the impending loss of Mike Wallace and how Antonio Brown would be next to worthless without benefit of Wallace "taking the top of the defenses" for him. Anyway I observed in the last couple games when Wallace didn't play how AB got behind the defense without much difficulty on a couple plays, so I didn't think we had anything to worry about. Of course on a couple of those plays they were negated by penalties that had no bearing on 84 getting open and catching the pass. Anyway my opinion back then was largely dismissed. Supposedly you couldn't draw any conclusions because for some reason plays that were erased by penalties really didn't happen ( though I did in fact see them, and the defense played the play as though it mattered) and it was too small a body of work etc...

Well sometimes if you know what you're looking at you don't need 1,000 plays to draw a conclusion. I knew as far back as the Chiefs game in 2012 that AB was the straw that stirred the drink in regards to the Steelers wr's as opposed to the fraud Wallace. And subsequently I knew that Wallace's departure would have no adverse effect on AB's game.

And just as was the case then I don't need a 1000 plays to see that AV is an ascending talent with a higher ceiling at LT than Beachum. And that's not meant as a knock on Beachum. I would have been fine if he hadn't got injured and the Steelers had committed to him as a starter for the next few years. He was indeed good. But he was never going to be a top 10 LT. ( at least in a normal year)

And I'm willing to go out on a limb and tell you I've seen enough to predict that barring injury Villenueva will be a guy who projects to that level as early as next season. That's not to say there wont be the occasional bump in the road. But the guy has the natural talent to excel as an NFL LT.

Psycho Ward 86
12-12-2015, 10:54 PM
Funny how it's premature to "crown" someone after having observed them play quality football at the NFL level against quality opponents. Meanwhile no one blinks an eye when someone categorizes a college underclassmen as a can't miss stud. Guys like Tony Mandarich, Robert Gallery, Jake Long, you're not being premature or no one calls you out when you wax poetic about their future heroics.

Anyway I remember going back to the end of 2012 when the board was fretting about the impending loss of Mike Wallace and how Antonio Brown would be next to worthless without benefit of Wallace "taking the top of the defenses" for him. Anyway I observed in the last couple games when Wallace didn't play how AB got behind the defense without much difficulty on a couple plays, so I didn't think we had anything to worry about. Of course on a couple of those plays they were negated by penalties that had no bearing on 84 getting open and catching the pass. Anyway my opinion back then was largely dismissed. Supposedly you couldn't draw any conclusions because for some reason plays that were erased by penalties really didn't happen ( though I did in fact see them, and the defense played the play as though it mattered) and it was too small a body of work etc...

Well sometimes if you know what you're looking at you don't need 1,000 plays to draw a conclusion. I knew as far back as the Chiefs game in 2012 that AB was the straw that stirred the drink in regards to the Steelers wr's as opposed to the fraud Wallace. And subsequently I knew that Wallace's departure would have no adverse effect on AB's game.

And just as was the case then I don't need a 1000 plays to see that AV is an ascending talent with a higher ceiling at LT than Beachum. And that's not meant as a knock on Beachum. I would have been fine if he hadn't got injured and the Steelers had committed to him as a starter for the next few years. He was indeed good. But he was never going to be a top 10 LT. ( at least in a normal year)

And I'm willing to go out on a limb and tell you I've seen enough to predict that barring injury Villenueva will be a guy who projects to that level as early as next season. That's not to say there wont be the occasional bump in the road. But the guy has the natural talent to excel as an NFL LT.

sorry im not going to anoint any player over 2 very good games. just exercising prudent judgement, doesnt mean i dont see the arrow pointing anywhere but up on the guy, because i absolutely do. Pretty sure the 3 you listed didnt attain high draft stock based on 2 games either. Again, no need for a monologue on everything i already stated that i AGREE with. the only thing i dont agree with is holding him in such high esteem based on 2 good games and a handful of promising ones. hmm, dont exactly recall you predicting AB to turn into an All-pro and the best receiver in the league either. Predicting him to be a good receiver after his sophomore campaign isnt exactly an emboldened statement that was limited to you. a lot of people actually shared that sentiment

this board gets very fickle about players they expect to be leaving the team. it also tends to get very fickle about players that leave for other teams. check the threads about Beachum from a season/season and a half ago and compare them today. lets not forget the marvel smith past his prime/johnathan scott/mike adams days at LT. Beachum started the quality LT play that we hadnt had in almost a decade before he started playing there. we should all be forever grateful for that. you're making a lot of pretty safe assumptions that you view as ahead of the curve. i think a lot of people would agree that a 6'9'', 345lb. guy getting a lot of snaps for the 1st time in his career at a brand new position with the best O-line coach in the league has a good shot to be a top 10 guy, especially since we've already seen him play well

Mojouw
12-13-2015, 12:06 PM
AV has to get better in the run game, handling switches, and passing off pass rushers to his other linemates before we can really start talking about top 10 in the league. Is his performance pleasantly surprising considering he was a total unknown quantity? Of course. Does he show tons of potential? Yes. Is it just that, potential? Yup.

As for AB and Wallace, I think that anyone who was watching the games could see that AB was the more complete WR. But even he struggled as a part of the overall offense when the team lacked that "deep threat". Remember when Sanders was miscast in that role? The offense was still good, but not the terrifying thing it is now. Difference - Martavis Bryant has been cast in the old Wallace role. Now clearly, AB is one of the best WRs in the game and would be fine no matter what. But having that overt deep threat as a constant menace to defense has taken all the players involved to another level.

zulater
12-13-2015, 03:06 PM
Another quality game against a quality opponent for AV. :coffee:

He's better than Beachum ( who is far from dominant in the run) already. Period, end of story!

Psycho Ward 86
12-13-2015, 03:15 PM
Another quality game against a quality opponent for AV. :coffee:

He's better than Beachum ( who is far from dominant in the run) already. Period, end of story!

still looking for the part where i disagree with this lol

Edman
12-13-2015, 03:54 PM
The Army Ranger kept Ben clean against one of the best D-Lines in the NFL.

Mojouw
12-13-2015, 03:57 PM
Another quality game against a quality opponent for AV. :coffee:

He's better than Beachum ( who is far from dominant in the run) already. Period, end of story!

Fair enough. I have read zero detailed examinations of AV's play where anyone besides yourself holds that opinion. It does not make you wrong. It does not make them correct. All I am saying is that I completely agree that AV is doing amazing considering his background and experience level. He demonstrates a series of physical and mental traits that align with your assessment that his arrow is pointed way up. His ceiling may in fact be higher than Beachum's.

But there are still holes in his game. If he continues to patch up those holes, then he can easily be a significantly above league average starting LT. But Beachum was already viewed by many professional observers as right around the 10-12th best tackle in the game prior to his injury.

Not ready to discard Beachum based on about a third of season from AV. But that contract situation may force a decision that goes beyond on field play.

zoneblitzerII
12-13-2015, 04:40 PM
Villanueva is an inspiration. He's quickly becoming one of my favourite players. Here's a man who is using sheer willpower to overcome all obstacles and challenges to find success in life.

Craic
12-13-2015, 04:42 PM
Fair enough. I have read zero detailed examinations of AV's play where anyone besides yourself holds that opinion. It does not make you wrong. It does not make them correct. All I am saying is that I completely agree that AV is doing amazing considering his background and experience level. He demonstrates a series of physical and mental traits that align with your assessment that his arrow is pointed way up. His ceiling may in fact be higher than Beachum's.

But there are still holes in his game. If he continues to patch up those holes, then he can easily be a significantly above league average starting LT. But Beachum was already viewed by many professional observers as right around the 10-12th best tackle in the game prior to his injury.

Not ready to discard Beachum based on about a third of season from AV. But that contract situation may force a decision that goes beyond on field play.

I think this is a very sound assessment of AV.

zulater
12-13-2015, 05:00 PM
Fair enough. I have read zero detailed examinations of AV's play where anyone besides yourself holds that opinion. It does not make you wrong. It does not make them correct. All I am saying is that I completely agree that AV is doing amazing considering his background and experience level. He demonstrates a series of physical and mental traits that align with your assessment that his arrow is pointed way up. His ceiling may in fact be higher than Beachum's.

But there are still holes in his game. If he continues to patch up those holes, then he can easily be a significantly above league average starting LT. But Beachum was already viewed by many professional observers as right around the 10-12th best tackle in the game prior to his injury.

Not ready to discard Beachum based on about a third of season from AV. But that contract situation may force a decision that goes beyond on field play.

I'm not wanting to discard Beachum either. But what you seem unwilling to grasp is that Beachum's play this year wasn't close to the level of consistent play he displayed all last year. Last year if he had a hole in his game it was that he was at best an average run blocker. This year that really didn't improve. At best he's been a mediocre run blocker. But last season Beachum was a very good pass blocker. This year I wouldn't say he was bad, but he wasn't nearly as good. Last season I thought Beachum was just on the outside looking in when you stacked him up against the league's better LT's. this year I saw him at best as average before the injury.

Edman
12-13-2015, 05:16 PM
The Army Ranger will face his biggest tests this week. Von Miller and Demarcus Ware.

hawaiiansteeler
01-22-2016, 12:10 PM
Tomlin Praises Beachum's Position Flexibility During End Of Season Press Conference

by Dave Bryan
Jan. 20, 2016

“Beachum's played guard and center in the past,” said Tomlin when asked...

to read rest of article:

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/01/tomlin-praises-beachums-position-flexibility-during-end-of-season-press-conference/

SteelerFanInStl
01-22-2016, 01:03 PM
Tomlin Praises Beachum's Position Flexibility During End Of Season Press Conference

by Dave Bryan
Jan. 20, 2016

“Beachum's played guard and center in the past,” said Tomlin when asked...

to read rest of article:

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/01/tomlin-praises-beachums-position-flexibility-during-end-of-season-press-conference/

Having Beachum come back at LG would be ideal. I've never been a big fan of Foster.

steelreserve
01-22-2016, 01:14 PM
Having Beachum come back at LG would be ideal. I've never been a big fan of Foster.

If we can get him for a decent price, he's the one out of those two we should keep. Foster can't play left tackle, and as far as I know, neither can anyone else if Villanueva gets hurt (at least not well; I guess there's always Gilbert).

Foster was actually OK this year, but I doubt we can afford to keep both, and he's the more replaceable one.

Again, unless Beachum's price is too high.

86WARD
01-22-2016, 01:17 PM
I would love to get Beachum back, but he's not going to come cheap. This is the NFL, someone will pay him big money.

teegre
01-22-2016, 02:30 PM
I'd be willing to pay Beachum LT money to play LG.

The interior O-line would be the best in the NFL, hands down.

LT Villanueva
LG Beachum (good enough to play LT)
OC Pouncey (All Pro)
RG DD (Pro Bowl)
RT Gilbert

Mojouw
01-22-2016, 02:45 PM
I'd be willing to pay Beachum LT money to play LG.

The interior O-line would be the best in the NFL, hands down.

LT Villanueva
LG Beachum (good enough to play LT)
OC Pouncey (All Pro)
RG DD (Pro Bowl)
RT Gilbert

Assuming the rest of the cap can be made to work for the next 2-3 years, I would as well. I am also working on the assumption that Beachum would be able to be a pulling guard, since he was/is agile enough to play tackle. I mentioned it somewhere else (I think) but with 3 high end interior linemen that could all pull? Are you serious? The wacky things the Steelers could do with screens, end arounds, etc.

My only question, aside from the money and Beachum's willingness to switch, is whether or not Beachum is "nasty" enough to play inside at guard? His most obvious weakness has always been in run blocking. Is he mean and strong enough to be tossing DT's around 16 weeks a year?

teegre
01-22-2016, 02:54 PM
Assuming the rest of the cap can be made to work for the next 2-3 years, I would as well. I am also working on the assumption that Beachum would be able to be a pulling guard, since he was/is agile enough to play tackle. I mentioned it somewhere else (I think) but with 3 high end interior linemen that could all pull? Are you serious? The wacky things the Steelers could do with screens, end arounds, etc.

My only question, aside from the money and Beachum's willingness to switch, is whether or not Beachum is "nasty" enough to play inside at guard? His most obvious weakness has always been in run blocking. Is he mean and strong enough to be tossing DT's around 16 weeks a year?

PARAGRAPH 2:
Pull all three... pull the two guards... pull the LG and OC... pull each OG a different way...

Bell would gave have a field day!!!

PARAGRAPH 1:
A guy guy who I trust to evaluate O-line (from the SF days) was against Beachum at LG, for the exact reasons that you listed. He said that Beachum is not a good enough run blocker and/or mean enough to plow stright ahead against DTs.

I would always counter that what Beachum would lose in "straight-line" blocking, he'd make up for in the ability to "move/pull"

Still, my buddy contended that at some point, Beachum would have to block stright ahead which he felt that Beachum could not do.

My response has always been:
Beachum finds a way to get it done. He is the smartest player on the team (possibly the smartest player that they've ever drafted); hence, he uses savvy and technique to move men much larger/taller than him. He was doubtful to ever play LT, and he did very well at that.

86WARD
01-24-2016, 07:10 PM
Anyone notice Sebastian Vollmer against DeMarcus Ware? Villanueva looked like an All-Pro last week...lol.

hawaiiansteeler
01-24-2016, 08:01 PM
Pro Football Focus graded Villanueva 48th out of 76 OTs who played at least 25% of the snaps this past season...

86WARD
01-24-2016, 08:03 PM
Pro Football Focus graded Villanueva 48th out of 76 OTs who played at least 25% of the snaps this past season...

Not bad for a guy who wasn't supposed to be anything much.

Count Steeler
01-24-2016, 08:37 PM
Pro Football Focus graded Villanueva 48th out of 76 OTs who played at least 25% of the snaps this past season...

And what did he play? 10 games? In his career. Not too shabby.

EzraTank
01-25-2016, 08:51 AM
And what did he play? 10 games? In his career. Not too shabby.

Exactly, let's hope he takes this off season serious and makes his game even better!

Craic
01-25-2016, 10:25 AM
Pro Football Focus graded Villanueva 48th out of 76 OTs who played at least 25% of the snaps this past season...

I'll take that. Like others have said, with just a few games under his built, that's great to hear.

Psycho Ward 86
01-25-2016, 11:34 AM
i find the keeping Beachum as an LG logic even more baffling.

1) Why would Beachum ever want to play LG when LT pays way better?
2) Why would Beachum ever want to play LG when he is already excelling at playing LT? Talk about trying to fix what isnt broken
3) Why would Beachum even feel any threat of not being able to hook up a sizable contract because of his injury? He has no major injury history aside from this season. Does anybody honestly think one of the most premier positions in football isnt going to pay well? People are always looking for good LT's, a position some people consider the 2nd most important in football. All it takes is one team
4) Beachum has outstanding feet, a trait that will be greatly diminished at guard. Hell, why why even try to take advantage of his quick feet by making him pull when you have an All-Pro center and All-Pro guard that are already probably the best at pulling at their respective positions?
5) Ramon Foster HELLO?!?!?!? Did it go completely unnoticed by the steeler fan base that we've had a solid guard for a while that's been perfectly happy and healthy here on a cheap 3 year, $6 million contract? You cant pay everyone big bucks. And theres nothing wrong with that