Can anyone name four active NFL head coaches they think are better than Tomlin?

[zulater]

I'm as bad as anyone. In the heat of the moment I'm ready to fire coaches and G.M.'s, cut or bench players etc... :mad: Not proud of it, but I'll own it, I can be emotional at times. :peep:

But as far as Tomlin goes, I have problems with his clock management oft times. In the past I think team discipline has been questionable. As well as his challenges. But for the past two seasons (starting after the Cleveland loss last year) as far as team discipline I think he's managed the moment perfectly. Bringing in refs last year when penalties got out of hand, great move. And it seems like the malcontents have been weeded out.

While acknowledging Tomlin is far from perfect, outside of the cheater in Boston, who's better than him? Give me 4 with a solid supporting argument. Hell if it's good I'll probably borrow it next time the Steelers lose and I'm pissed at Tomlin. :lol:

The thing is when you put your names down then you open them up for the same scrutiny we apply to Tomlin. So give us your best and see how they stand up to critical examination.

My opinion is Tomlin is on the short list for coach of the year if Ben comes back to a 5-2 team. Tell me why I'm wrong.

[86WARD]

Mike McCarthy, Bill Belichick, Sean Payton, Andy Reid off the top of my head. I don't have time right now to Dona write up. But I think those 4 are all better by far.

I won't argue that if they are 5-2 he's definitely in the conversation for coach of the year...

[Merchant]

Mike McCarthy, Bill Belichick, Sean Payton, Andy Reid off the top of my head. I don't have time right now to Dona write up. But I think those 4 are all better by far.

I won't argue that if they are 5-2 he's definitely in the conversation for coach of the year...

An interesting debate would be whether the first three are actually incredible coaches, or if they're good/mediocre coaches who have had the fortune of working with a top tier QB for most of their career (Brady, Favre/Rodgers, and Brees).

Tomlin is two Josh Scobee field goal's away from being 3-0 without Big Ben. I'd like to see Belichick pull that off with Jimmy Garappolo at the helm.

[polamalubeast]

Andy Reid is not better than Tomlin.

Reid has almost a losing record since 2005 .....

[fansince'76]

Shouldn't be too hard - I saw one remark on this board a couple of weeks ago that he was the 3rd-best coach in the AFC North.

[polamalubeast]

Shouldn't be too hard - I saw one remark on this board a couple of weeks ago that he was the 3rd-best coach in the AFC North.

It was me!!!!

It was an overreaction after the lost against the ravens.

[slippy]

not andy reid. he's cowher without a super bowl win. and his clock mgmt is actually worse than tomlins.

[teegre]

I'm as bad as anyone. In the heat of the moment I'm ready to fire coaches and G.M.'s, cut or bench players etc... :mad: Not proud of it, but I'll own it, I can be emotional at times. :peep:

But as far as Tomlin goes, I have problems with his clock management oft times. In the past I think team discipline has been questionable. As well as his challenges. But for the past two seasons (starting after the Cleveland loss last year) as far as team discipline I think he's managed the moment perfectly. Bringing in refs last year when penalties got out of hand, great move. And it seems like the malcontents have been weeded out.

While acknowledging Tomlin is far from perfect, outside of the cheater in Boston, who's better than him? Give me 4 with a solid supporting argument. Hell if it's good I'll probably borrow it next time the Steelers lose and I'm pissed at Tomlin. :lol:

The thing is when you put your names down then you open them up for the same scrutiny we apply to Tomlin. So give us your best and see how they stand up to critical examination.

My opinion is Tomlin is on the short list for coach of the year if Ben comes back to a 5-2 team. Tell me why I'm wrong.

This is an outstanding post. And, a great thread idea.

I'll respond in more detail later... but, I saw this and had to give you some immediate props.

[zulater]

Andy Reid is not better than Tomlin.

Reid has almost a losing record since 2005 .....

I agree but this Sunday could change it. :lol:

[Steeldude]

I think a better question is, what has Tomlin done in Pittsburgh that any number of other coaches could not do? Has Tomlin made any unique moves that helped propel the Steelers or keep the competitive? Could Tomlin resurrect a team like the Browns, Raiders or Jets? It's not always easy to evaluate a HC. If you are a new coach taking over a good team then you will probably have success. But what about taking over a bad team?

IMO, I don't find Tomlin to be special, but I could be very wrong. My main problems with Tomlin are clock management, personnel decisions and game/team preparation. Vick would have remained in the game if he wasn't injured. If he was healthy for this week I believe Tomlin would have stuck with him. Look how many times he has handed Jarvis Jones the starting job for doing nothing? Why the 2-point conversion attempt last Sunday? Now I am saying he hasn't made good decisions too.

I am curious to see if Boykins plays this weekend if Blake is out. Should Blake even be starting at all? Is Boykins completely inept or is he in the doghouse?

[steelreserve]

Belichick, Payton, Reid, Fisher, Arians, McCarthy, Carroll.

Harbaugh, Pagano, Coughlin and Fox are on the same level, and you could make an argument for each that he is somewhat better than Tomlin.

Among recent coaches, Jim Harbaugh was far better; there are several college coaches who would be equal and probably a couple of NFL coordinators.

Tomlin is definitely not the worst coach out there, but he is nothing special.

[zulater]

Mike McCarthy, Bill Belichick, Sean Payton, Andy Reid off the top of my head. I don't have time right now to Dona write up. But I think those 4 are all better by far.

I won't argue that if they are 5-2 he's definitely in the conversation for coach of the year...

Mike McCarthy. Got possibly the best qb in the history of mankind ( according to just about everyone) and has only got to 1 SB. `Imagine Tomlin blowing a trip to the SB on a guy not knowing his assignment on an onsides kick.

Andy Reid? You're kidding right? :lol: As has been pointed out his clock mismanagement is famous. Ask any Eagle or Chief fan how big of dolt this guy is when it comes to using time outs and two minute situations.


Sean Payton. Couldn't even win the worst division (season wise) in the history of the NFL with one of the handful of true franchise qb's in the league on his team. The division was there for the taking. In order not to win their division they had to lose their last 5 home games, 3 of these losses came against team with losing records. That team has fallen off the ledge to virtual irrelevance. How does this not reflect on Payton?

I already conceded the cheatah from Bahstan. But of course to want him as your coach requires selling your soul to Satan. Or Goodell, whoever happens to be closest at the moment. :heh:

To me the ones in the argument as better than Tomlin are John Harbaugh. But of course this season so far is putting that in some question. Besides is there a whinier SOB in the history of the league than crybaby John? God that guy irratitates me with his constant bitching. He gets more close call than any two coaches combined but God forbid a close one go against him.

Then of course there's Pete Carroll. Now if there was ever a more stupid Super Bowl game deciding play call than the one he came up with last year please tell me what it was. And talk about selfish undisciplined prima donna's. That team is nothing but a collection of stars in it only for them self.

[steelreserve]

I think a better question is, what has Tomlin done in Pittsburgh that any number of other coaches could not do? Has Tomlin made any unique moves that helped propel the Steelers or keep the competitive? Could Tomlin resurrect a team like the Browns, Raiders or Jets? It's not always easy to evaluate a HC. If you are a new coach taking over a good team then you will probably have success. But what about taking over a bad team?

Bingo.

[TeeTee]

I think a better question is, what has Tomlin done in Pittsburgh that any number of other coaches could not do? Has Tomlin made any unique moves that helped propel the Steelers or keep the competitive? Could Tomlin resurrect a team like the Browns, Raiders or Jets? It's not always easy to evaluate a HC. If you are a new coach taking over a good team then you will probably have success. But what about taking over a bad team?

IMO, I don't find Tomlin to be special, but I could be very wrong. My main problems with Tomlin are clock management, personnel decisions and game/team preparation. Vick would have remained in the game if he wasn't injured. If he was healthy for this week I believe Tomlin would have stuck with him. Look how many times he has handed Jarvis Jones the starting job for doing nothing? Why the 2-point conversion attempt last Sunday? Now I am saying he hasn't made good decisions too.

I am curious to see if Boykins plays this weekend if Blake is out. Should Blake even be starting at all? Is Boykins completely inept or is he in the doghouse?

They hate Boink because he doesn't kiss ass.

- - - Updated - - -

Belichick, Ron Rivera, Fisher, Harbaugh, Carroll.

[Mojouw]

Great thread. Good responses. Quick thoughts:

1. Andy Reid is terrible at clock management. Makes Tomlin look like a human stopwatch. Plus his play-calling is wacky.
2. Pagano - please. They waste so much talent in Indy and that roster is so unbalanced and non-sense ridden it is crazy.
3. Carroll - interesting. But I put this out there. Look at his drafts when he was able to pick guys he knew from college recruiting. Now look at his drafts when he is picking guys he has no prior knowledge of. Interesting bits of difference there... Plus gutting the o-line to get Jimmy Grahamn and then not using him. Could you imagine if Tomlin did that?
4. Either Harbaugh - please. One got run out of town because his message soured after 3 years. The other can't seem to take the early favorite for the division to even a 500 record. I'm so damned tired of hearing about the genius of the Harbaugh boys. Also, look at the Ravens attempts to restock their roster as the core of their elite defense aged out. Now look at the Steelers attempts. Which roster would you rather have?

Got to run for now - but I encourage everyone to be a bit more critical of other coaches. For instance, not to bang on Carrol to much, but that team is folding right now. Take a look at how the Hawks are playing right now and look at how recent Tomlin Steelers teams have played through adversity. I know which coach I would pick.

[zulater]

I think a better question is, what has Tomlin done in Pittsburgh that any number of other coaches could not do? Has Tomlin made any unique moves that helped propel the Steelers or keep the competitive? Could Tomlin resurrect a team like the Browns, Raiders or Jets? It's not always easy to evaluate a HC. If you are a new coach taking over a good team then you will probably have success. But what about taking over a bad team?

IMO, I don't find Tomlin to be special, but I could be very wrong. My main problems with Tomlin are clock management, personnel decisions and game/team preparation. Vick would have remained in the game if he wasn't injured. If he was healthy for this week I believe Tomlin would have stuck with him. Look how many times he has handed Jarvis Jones the starting job for doing nothing? Why the 2-point conversion attempt last Sunday? Now I am saying he hasn't made good decisions too.

I am curious to see if Boykins plays this weekend if Blake is out. Should Blake even be starting at all? Is Boykins completely inept or is he in the doghouse?

He's sustained success. He's in his 9th year and has yet to have a losing season. McCarthy has never been without a franchise qb. He's had a losing season. Even Bellichick has had losing seasons as a head coach. Yeah I know Tomlin inherited a strong nucleus. But over 9 years a 53 man roster pretty much becomes a different entity in the NFL. Ben, Heath, Deebo, and that's pretty much it. It's a different team. Every year in fact it's a different team. That's why 9 straight non losing seasons is pretty significant.

I concede you bring up valid concerns about Tomlin, not just here now, but throughout the years. And to some extent I'm playing devil's advocate with this thread.But then again when I look around the league and if I apply the same scrutiny to the other guys that we do to our guy I end up asking myself if maybe I'm not being entirely fair? Things aren't as easy as they appear from the outside. Managing player personalities and ego's.Dealing with players that never think they're getting enough opportunity or money. Dealing with a staff of asst coaches, some possibly at cross purposes with the head coach or other coaches on the staff. Dealing with upper management etc....

Bottom line is record. And yes I know he's been lucky enough to have a great qb the entirely of his coaching tenure here, but still at some point doesn't he deserve some credit for the winning?

[TeeTee]

Great thread. Good responses. Quick thoughts:

1. Andy Reid is terrible at clock management. Makes Tomlin look like a human stopwatch. Plus his play-calling is wacky.
2. Pagano - please. They waste so much talent in Indy and that roster is so unbalanced and non-sense ridden it is crazy.
3. Carroll - interesting. But I put this out there. Look at his drafts when he was able to pick guys he knew from college recruiting. Now look at his drafts when he is picking guys he has no prior knowledge of. Interesting bits of difference there... Plus gutting the o-line to get Jimmy Grahamn and then not using him. Could you imagine if Tomlin did that?
4. Either Harbaugh - please. One got run out of town because his message soured after 3 years. The other can't seem to take the early favorite for the division to even a 500 record. I'm so damned tired of hearing about the genius of the Harbaugh boys. Also, look at the Ravens attempts to restock their roster as the core of their elite defense aged out. Now look at the Steelers attempts. Which roster would you rather have?

Got to run for now - but I encourage everyone to be a bit more critical of other coaches. For instance, not to bang on Carrol to much, but that team is folding right now. Take a look at how the Hawks are playing right now and look at how recent Tomlin Steelers teams have played through adversity. I know which coach I would pick.

1.) The season is far from over. Don't make final judgements on the SeaHawks just yet.
2.) Look at the job Carroll did the last 4 years compared to Cool Shades? Who had the vastly superior team in the most recent 4 years? Cool Shades traded for a CB and then never lets him play, ever. Nice job there.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Both Harbaughs. Hate to say it.

[zulater]

Both Harbaughs. Hate to say it.

Let's see what happens if the Ravens lose this week in Arizona. That would make them 1-6 with Josh Scobee being the sole reason they even have one win. Is Terrel Suggs so great that his loss makes total disaster acceptable for the coach? Losing Suggs along with Steve Smith has more relevance than losing the best rb in the game for 3 games? Losing emerging superstar Martavis Bryant for 5 games? Losing Ryan Shazier for 5 games? Losing Maukice Pouncey for most likely the season? Losing Big Ben for the past 3 games possibly going on 4?

Jim Harbaugh, yes he's a great coach. But he has no staying power. Yeah give him the Steelers for 3 seasons good chance you'll find yourself in a Super Bowl or two. But if he stays longer than that there's likely to be stabbings in the locker room. :lol:

[teegre]

Let me go through the obvious ones...

BILL BELICHICK:
I think that the man is a genius. He thinks three steps ahead, and pushes the rules to the limits. BUT, I would never want him as my coach, because he is a cheater. Likewise, he cut a player on the morning of the SuperBowl... how heartless can you be??? In other words, he might very well be the best coaching mind that I have ever seen coach, but simultaneously, I think that he is a scumbag.
Summation: Not unless he promised stop being an evil fuck.

JOHN HARBAUGH:
Outstanding coach. But, if he were whining and throwing fit the way that he does, I would be embarrassed.
Summation: Hell no!!!

JIM HARBAUGH:
I think that he is a college coach... because, after 3 years, the players can escape his antics. I watched him rekindle the USD program; amazing job. Similarly, he brought Stanford back from obscurity. He was great at San Fran... until, his yelling & demeaning behavior wore thin.
Summation: Only for my college team.

PETE CARROLL:
Rah, rah, sis boom bah!!! The dude is the ultimate players' coach; he thinks that he is 23 years old. The man can motivate young people like the best of them, and he can construct a defense like none other (Carroll drafted all of those Taperiot defenders from the 2001-2004 SuperBowls). He's laid back; he paddleboards on the weekends. He gives back to the community; he helped revitalize the areas around USC. As a person, he is who I think that I'd like to be in my 60s/70s. Of course, living in SoCal, I am completely biased.
Summation: I would not replace Tomlin, but I do like Pete Carroll.

(to be continued...)

[zulater]

Let me go through the obvious ones...

BILL BELICHICK:
I think that the man is a genius. He thinks three steps ahead, and pushes the rules to the limits. BUT, I would never want him as my coach, because he is a cheater. Likewise, he cut a player on the morning of the SuperBowl... how heartless can you be??? In other words, he might very well be the best coaching mind that I have ever seen coach, but simultaneously, I think that he is a scumbag.
Summation: Not unless he promised stop being an evil fuck.

JOHN HARBAUGH:
Outstanding coach. But, if he were whining and throwing fit the way that he does, I would be embarrassed.
Summation: Hell no!!!

JIM HARBAUGH:
I think that he is a college coach... because, after 3 years, the players can escape his antics. I watched him rekindle the USD program; amazing job. Similarly, he brought Stanford back from obscurity. He was great at San Fran... until, his yelling & demeaning behavior wore thin.
Summation: Only for my college team.

PETE CARROLL:
Rah, rah, sis boom bah!!! The dude is the ultimate players' coach; he thinks that he is 23 years old. The man can motivate young people like the best of them, and he can construct a defense like none other (Carroll drafted all of those Taperiot defenders from the 2001-2004 SuperBowls). He's laid back; he paddleboards on the weekends. He gives back to the community; he helped revitalize the areas around USC. As a person, he is who I think that I'd like to be in my 60s/70s. Of course, living in SoCal, I am completely biased.
Summation: I would not replace Tomlin, but I do like Pete Carroll.

(to be continued...)

Summation: Not unless he promised stop being an evil fuck. :sofunny:


I don't know why, but that one got me laughing so hard I got tears running down my cheeks!:chuckle:

[teegre]

Summation: Not unless he promised stop being an evil fuck. :sofunny:


I don't know why, but that one got me laughing so hard I got tears running down my cheeks!:chuckle:

:hatsoff:

[Dissolv]

As a coach, Tomlin has glaring issues. Clock Management, challenges, roster decisions. Yet despite that, he does remain a highly effective NFL coach. Comparing him to Cowher at this stage is becoming more and more relevant. At times Cowher had losing seasons. He also had issues -- Martyball, loyalty to Kordell, failure to value the QB position. But he was an excellent coach, and he could easily step right back into the elite ranks of the NFL is he wanted to.

Tomlin is the same way. Not perfect, but clearly capable of helming the flagship team of the NFL to repeated success. Another superbowl win, even one this year with all the injuries, is not out of the question, and how are the Harbaugh brother's chances doing right about now? Sustained success matters--the more times you get to the playoffs, the more likely it is you go all the way. Peak and valley teams don't tend to make it back for a loooooooong time. I'll take Tomlin, given the alternatives. Warts and all.

(This won't keep me from internet posting his boneheaded moves though)

Dissolv

[fansince'76]

As a coach, Tomlin has glaring issues. Clock Management, challenges, roster decisions. Yet despite that, he does remain a highly effective NFL coach. Comparing him to Cowher at this stage is becoming more and more relevant. At times Cowher had losing seasons. He also had issues -- Martyball, loyalty to Kordell, failure to value the QB position. But he was an excellent coach, and he could easily step right back into the elite ranks of the NFL is he wanted to.

Tomlin is the same way. Not perfect, but clearly capable of helming the flagship team of the NFL to repeated success. Another superbowl win, even one this year with all the injuries, is not out of the question, and how are the Harbaugh brother's chances doing right about now? Sustained success matters--the more times you get to the playoffs, the more likely it is you go all the way. Peak and valley teams don't tend to make it back for a loooooooong time. I'll take Tomlin, given the alternatives. Warts and all.

(This won't keep me from internet posting his boneheaded moves though)

Dissolv

Probably the fairest assessment I've seen yet anywhere. :applaudit:

[zulater]

Probably the fairest assessment I've seen yet anywhere. :applaudit:

I thought so too. Except for the part of Cowher stepping right back in and being a top coach. Cowher's lost his passion for coaching imo. If he eventually comes back it will be financially driven and bound for failure just like Jimmy Johnson's return to coaching. I really hope he doesn't come back. He's found his niche in life. He does it well.

[smokin3000gt]

Everyone here knows only the best of coaches wear the coolest of shades. Tomlin wins.

/thread

I also think Cowher would need a shot or two of testosterone before he could consider a return to coaching.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Let's see what happens if the Ravens lose this week in Arizona. That would make them 1-6 with Josh Scobee being the sole reason they even have one win. Is Terrel Suggs so great that his loss makes total disaster acceptable for the coach? Losing Suggs along with Steve Smith has more relevance than losing the best rb in the game for 3 games? Losing emerging superstar Martavis Bryant for 5 games? Losing Ryan Shazier for 5 games? Losing Maukice Pouncey for most likely the season? Losing Big Ben for the past 3 games possibly going on 4?

Jim Harbaugh, yes he's a great coach. But he has no staying power. Yeah give him the Steelers for 3 seasons good chance you'll find yourself in a Super Bowl or two. But if he stays longer than that there's likely to be stabbings in the locker room. :lol:

not exactly an objective assessment. What are their career records? How were the respective teams doing before and after them? etc. etc. I give credit where i feel its due

[zulater]

not exactly an objective assessment. What are their career records? How were the respective teams doing before and after them? etc. etc. I give credit where i feel its due

Except in Tomlin's case. Got it.

[zulater]

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/TomlMi0.htm

Going strictly by numbers a .642 career winning % doesn't come across as a bad resume.

[teegre]

...continued...

Next up: the ex-Steelers coaches and/or the candidates from 2007:

BRUCE ARIANS:
The guy has done a fine job as a head coach. I think that quite a bit of it has been luck with his draft picks. The best example being Tyrann Mathieu, who was a top 5 pick, which Arians got in the third round. (Likewise, having Andrew Luck as your QB will win you enough games to "look" smart.) Regardless of luck (and Luck), Arians seems to get his guys motivated, and his teams have done really well. But, he simply gets QBs killed. For whatever reason, he neglects the O-line time & time again. That eliminates him from the discussion.
Summation: Good coach, but I wouldn't take him over Tomlin.


WHIZ & GRIMM:
Really?... do I actually need to spell out to everyone how those two would not be as good as Tomlin? It has been nine years; can we get past these two yet???
Summation: No.


RON RIVERA:
I love this guy's demeanor. He is a risk taker, he is all fire, and he knows defense. Yes, yes, yes. But, he is nowhere near as good as Tomlin.
Summation: I root for Ron Rivera, but I would never replace Tomlin with him.

...(to be continued)...

[Craic]

As a coach, Tomlin has glaring issues. Clock Management, challenges, roster decisions. Yet despite that, he does remain a highly effective NFL coach. Comparing him to Cowher at this stage is becoming more and more relevant. At times Cowher had losing seasons. He also had issues -- Martyball, loyalty to Kordell, failure to value the QB position. But he was an excellent coach, and he could easily step right back into the elite ranks of the NFL is he wanted to.

Tomlin is the same way. Not perfect, but clearly capable of helming the flagship team of the NFL to repeated success. Another superbowl win, even one this year with all the injuries, is not out of the question, and how are the Harbaugh brother's chances doing right about now? Sustained success matters--the more times you get to the playoffs, the more likely it is you go all the way. Peak and valley teams don't tend to make it back for a loooooooong time. I'll take Tomlin, given the alternatives. Warts and all.

(This won't keep me from internet posting his boneheaded moves though)

Dissolv

Good post, except for challenges. As of a year ago (https://news.sportsinteraction.com/sports/nfl-football/nfl-coachs-challenge-best-and-worst-records-when-the-flag-is-thrown-83188/), "Mike Tomlin, head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers, has the best challenge success percentage (54.5) of any active coach with more than 50 career challenges." The fact that we think he isn't is due to our bias of wanting everything to go our way (common to all sports fans, me especially). The same is true of the draft. Believe it or not, the Steelers, in comparison to other teams, have a decent to good draft record under Tomlin. Of course, we yell and scream when any pick, 3rd round or higher, fails to become anything less than a very good to great player. But, statistics show we're doing better than most there since Tomlin took over.

[Count Steeler]

I can't believe no one has mentioned, cough, cough, Bruce Arians. Who has won more coach of the years?

Oops, didn't read ALL the new posts since last time I read this thread.

Apologies to steelreserve and teegre.

[teegre]

Good post, except for challenges. As of a year ago (https://news.sportsinteraction.com/sports/nfl-football/nfl-coachs-challenge-best-and-worst-records-when-the-flag-is-thrown-83188/), "Mike Tomlin, head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers, has the best challenge success percentage (54.5) of any active coach with more than 50 career challenges." The fact that we think he isn't is due to our bias of wanting everything to go our way (common to all sports fans, me especially). The same is true of the draft. Believe it or not, the Steelers, in comparison to other teams, have a decent to good draft record under Tomlin. Of course, we yell and scream when any pick, 3rd round or higher, fails to become anything less than a very good to great player. But, statistics show we're doing better than most there since Tomlin took over.

I heard some ESPN talking head discuss the draft. He broke it down like this for the first round:

30% of the draft picks become busts.
30% of the draft picks become fringe players/role players.
30% of the draft picks become decent starters.
3% of the draft picks become good starters.
3% of the draft picks become Pro Bowlers.
3% of the draft picks become All-Pros.
1% of the draft picks become HOFers.

And, for each round thereafter, it gets increasingly worse.

2007: Timmons good starter
2008: Spinny decent starter
2009: Hood decent starter
2010: Pouncey All-Pro
2011: Heyward Pro Bowler (soon to be)
2012: DD Pro Bowler (soon to be)
2013: Jones fringe/role player
2014: Shazier inc. shows flashes of All-Pro
2015: Dupree too early, looks like (at least) a good starter

[Count Steeler]

cough, 2008, cough 2009. Yes, the draft has improved since those 2 dynamic years, but talk about blow outs.

[86WARD]

Andy Reid is not better than Tomlin.

Reid has almost a losing record since 2005 .....

all talent being equal...I'd take Reid over Tomlin every time.

[Mojouw]

all talent being equal...I'd take Reid over Tomlin every time.

Really? Why? With Haley on board, anything that Reid is better at in terms of x's and o's is at best a push. Reid's locker rooms have traditionally been very drama filled and his clock management and challenges are among the worst in the entire league.

I figure he has an advantage in QB mentoring but that is about it. Reid has had teams pack it in before in Philly due to injuries up and down the roster. Tomlin has demonstrated and ability to get teams to fight through that. Reid also has a tendency to make bizarre play calls - something that could be argued he and Tomlin/Haley share.

Not telling you that you are wrong, just interested in what it is about Reid that everyone seems to really like.

- - - Updated - - -


1.) The season is far from over. Don't make final judgements on the SeaHawks just yet.
2.) Look at the job Carroll did the last 4 years compared to Cool Shades? Who had the vastly superior team in the most recent 4 years? Cool Shades traded for a CB and then never lets him play, ever. Nice job there.

In terms of Carroll vs. Tomlin - who had the superior talent up and down the roster? I think Carroll is an excellent coach, but I am not certain he would have really done much better than Tomlin last 3-4 years.

[86WARD]

Mike McCarthy. Got possibly the best qb in the history of mankind ( according to just about everyone) and has only got to 1 SB. `Imagine Tomlin blowing a trip to the SB on a guy not knowing his assignment on an onsides kick.

Andy Reid? You're kidding right? :lol: As has been pointed out his clock mismanagement is famous. Ask any Eagle or Chief fan how big of dolt this guy is when it comes to using time outs and two minute situations.


Sean Payton. Couldn't even win the worst division (season wise) in the history of the NFL with one of the handful of true franchise qb's in the league on his team. The division was there for the taking. In order not to win their division they had to lose their last 5 home games, 3 of these losses came against team with losing records. That team has fallen off the ledge to virtual irrelevance. How does this not reflect on Payton?

I already conceded the cheatah from Bahstan. But of course to want him as your coach requires selling your soul to Satan. Or Goodell, whoever happens to be closest at the moment. :heh:

To me the ones in the argument as better than Tomlin are John Harbaugh. But of course this season so far is putting that in some question. Besides is there a whinier SOB in the history of the league than crybaby John? God that guy irratitates me with his constant bitching. He gets more close call than any two coaches combined but God forbid a close one go against him.

Then of course there's Pete Carroll. Now if there was ever a more stupid Super Bowl game deciding play call than the one he came up with last year please tell me what it was. And talk about selfish undisciplined prima donna's. That team is nothing but a collection of stars in it only for them self.

When Reid had talent to work with, he was leaps and bounds better than Tomlin. Don't try to use clock management as an argument against Reid and then try to use it as a "plus" for Tomlin. He's just as bad if not worse...lol

I'm looking at it as all things being equal...who would I rather have as a coach?

If you want to call coaches "out"? I mean Tomlin had the best offense in the league last year and he couldn't win one playoff game. Sure Bell was out...but Ben, Miller, Bryant, Brown...they were all still there and Tomlin couldn't win ONE playoff game??? For every argument against McCarthy, Reid, Belichick, Payton...there's an equal argument against Tomlin. Easily an equal argument.

[Mojouw]

Belichick, Payton, Reid, Fisher, Arians, McCarthy, Carroll.

Harbaugh, Pagano, Coughlin and Fox are on the same level, and you could make an argument for each that he is somewhat better than Tomlin.

Among recent coaches, Jim Harbaugh was far better; there are several college coaches who would be equal and probably a couple of NFL coordinators.

Tomlin is definitely not the worst coach out there, but he is nothing special.

Tomlin may not be special - or at least the kind of special we would prefer - but he is better at managing a team than many on that list.

Payton - Bountygate and multiple visible fights with the coaching staff on the sideline. Not what I'm looking for.

Bellicheck and Carroll, I'll buy those two although I want to see what Carroll can do no that attrition has set in on the roster and he has lost his built in draft advantage.

I never got the Fisher love. To me he is Marty Schottenhiemer 2.0. Just good enough to get you beat when it matters. I am likely being totally unfair in this, but really what are Fisher's accomplishments? I guess I could look it up, but I honestly can't think of anything right now.

McCarthy, to me, is the offensive version of Tomlin. Can guide a team really well, but makes some head scratching decisions now and then. If he is better, it isn't by light years or anything.

Pagano, Coughlin, and Fox are interesting comparisons. I can see an argument that they are all 6 and one half dozen the other. Not sure that if I had to pull the trigger that I would swap Tomlin for any of them and be really confident that I improved my franchise.

Point being, it seems that it isn't really that easy to point to a bunch of guys around the league and easily say "that guy. that guy is better. by a lot."

[zulater]

When Reid had talent to work with, he was leaps and bounds better than Tomlin. Don't try to use clock management as an argument against Reid and then try to use it as a "plus" for Tomlin. He's just as bad if not worse...lol

I'm looking at it as all things being equal...who would I rather have as a coach?

If you want to call coaches "out"? I mean Tomlin had the best offense in the league last year and he couldn't win one playoff game. Sure Bell was out...but Ben, Miller, Bryant, Brown...they were all still there and Tomlin couldn't win ONE playoff game??? For every argument against McCarthy, Reid, Belichick, Payton...there's an equal argument against Tomlin. Easily an equal argument.

"Leaps and bounds". Really? Guess that would explain all those Super Bowl wins.

Seriously if you want to say there's a case to be made for Reid over Tomlin I suppose you could make a case. But no way leaps and bounds. In fact if anything I would suggest the argument would go the other way and most people that have no horse in the race would call Tomlin clearly superior to Reid

[86WARD]

Really? Why? With Haley on board, anything that Reid is better at in terms of x's and o's is at best a push. Reid's locker rooms have traditionally been very drama filled and his clock management and challenges are among the worst in the entire league.

I figure he has an advantage in QB mentoring but that is about it. Reid has had teams pack it in before in Philly due to injuries up and down the roster. Tomlin has demonstrated and ability to get teams to fight through that. Reid also has a tendency to make bizarre play calls - something that could be argued he and Tomlin/Haley share.

Not telling you that you are wrong, just interested in what it is about Reid that everyone seems to really like.

- - - Updated - - -



In terms of Carroll vs. Tomlin - who had the superior talent up and down the roster? I think Carroll is an excellent coach, but I am not certain he would have really done much better than Tomlin last 3-4 years.

Adding Haley into the mix wasn't the original question and its been argued/reported that he may not have been Tomlin's "hire" but a coach the Rooneys forced on Tomlin.

Reid's teams have had drama and personnel issues, what team hasn't? I recall some drama under Tomlin...Hines Ward/Big Ben, then there was the whole taking the games away and flips into the end zone will result in benchings. I haven't heard anything about Bryant being benched this week...if you nit pick enough, you can find little things on every coach to argue they aren't better than the other.

I don't recall Andy Reid ever stepping on the field during a special team return...

[teegre]

I don't recall Andy Reid ever stepping on the field during a special team return...

That's because Reid hasn't moved that far in years. :wink02:

[polamalubeast]

When Reid had talent to work with, he was leaps and bounds better than Tomlin. Don't try to use clock management as an argument against Reid and then try to use it as a "plus" for Tomlin. He's just as bad if not worse...lol

I'm looking at it as all things being equal...who would I rather have as a coach?

If you want to call coaches "out"? I mean Tomlin had the best offense in the league last year and he couldn't win one playoff game. Sure Bell was out...but Ben, Miller, Bryant, Brown...they were all still there and Tomlin couldn't win ONE playoff game??? For every argument against McCarthy, Reid, Belichick, Payton...there's an equal argument against Tomlin. Easily an equal argument.


Andy Reid has no playoffs win since the death of Jim Johnson, former DC of eagles......Several eagles fan think the success of Andy Reid in its 10 first year was because of Jim Johnson.


Last year the Steelers had the worst defense in all playoff teams and the steelers were not the same offense with Josh Harris as RB!....Tomlin is far from perfect, but Tomlin is better than Reid.

[86WARD]

"Leaps and bounds". Really? Guess that would explain all those Super Bowl wins.

Seriously if you want to say there's a case to be made for Reid over Tomlin I suppose you could make a case. But no way leaps and bounds. In fact if anything I would suggest the argument would go the other way and most people that have no horse in the race would call Tomlin clearly superior to Reid

And vice versa...it's an endless argument. Any argument you could make for Tomlin, you could turn around and go the other way and you don't know that those people with no horses would call Tomlin clearly superior to Reid...I can say those people would clearly say Reid is better than Tomlin. That's just your opinion. Which is no more or less valid than mine.

[86WARD]

That's because Reid hasn't moved that far in years. :wink02:

Lol...touché. He's got no suddenness or glide?

[zulater]

My favorite Andy Reid moment. :sofunny:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSHFDhh0gJs

[teegre]

cough, 2008, cough 2009. Yes, the draft has improved since those 2 dynamic years, but talk about blow outs.


2008: God-awful.

2009: They simply didn't retain anyone. But, the players themselves weren't too shabby.

Mike Wallace gave us 32 TDs. Keenan Lewis was a good CB who left. Hood was a decent starter, miscast as a DE (he was a DT). Johnson was a role-player (who whiffed on a block in XLV). Urbik was cut for no reason, and ended up as a good OG elsewhere.

[zulater]

And vice versa...it's an endless argument. Any argument you could make for Tomlin, you could turn around and go the other way and you don't know that those people with no horses would call Tomlin clearly superior to Reid...I can say those people would clearly say Reid is better than Tomlin. That's just your opinion. Which is no more or less valid than mine.

Here's the argument against Reid as opposed to Tomlin. 3 losing seasons. A 4 win season, a 5 win season, and a 6 win season. That doesn't include this year which most likely will end up in that column as well. Never won a Super Bowl.

I realize all things aren't equal. But I honestly don't think too many people, be it fans, reporters, owners, or fellow coaches would give a clear cut advantage to Reid over Tomlin. But I can't prove it, so I'll leave it as a difference of opinion.

Tomlin gets under my skin every now and then, but I think he's become a pretty good coach. The way he turned the team around last year after the loss at Cleveland really brought me around to the pro Mike side.

[teegre]

Lol...touché. He's got no suddenness or glide?

:applaudit:

Reid isn't a thugg.

The second "g" is for "glide."


(I'm not sure if "thugg guy" trolled this board, but it's essentially the same joke as "s&g".)

[86WARD]

Here's the argument against Reid as opposed to Tomlin. 3 losing seasons. A 4 win season, a 5 win season, and a 6 win season. That doesn't include this year which most likely will end up in that column as well. Never won a Super Bowl.

I realize all things aren't equal. But I honestly don't think too many people, be it fans, reporters, owners, or fellow coaches would give a clear cut advantage to Reid over Tomlin. But I can't prove it, so I'll leave it as a difference of opinion.

Tomlin gets under my skin every now and then, but I think he's become a pretty good coach. The way he turned the team around last year after the loss at Cleveland really brought me around to the pro Mike side.

I'm not saying Tomlin isn't a good coach. At times he has some major mental lapses and he just doesn't get "it" sometimes IMO...like playing Justin Brown over Lance Moore and Martavis Bryant (for example) but overall. His teams have tendencies to play down and then below competition. They at times seem very undisciplined and unprepared. He's had some issues with challenges and lack there of. I'd be willing to bet if you had 50 people rank the Top-10 coaches in the league, you'd get 35 of them being totally different. I'm not saying I'm not Pro-Mike...most of the time I am. There are times however when the team seems unprepared, plays down to the competition, plays stupid that if they fired him the next day, I wouldn't care. If they lose to Reid and the Chiefs this week, this would be one of those times...lol.

[Mojouw]

Adding Haley into the mix wasn't the original question and its been argued/reported that he may not have been Tomlin's "hire" but a coach the Rooneys forced on Tomlin.

Reid's teams have had drama and personnel issues, what team hasn't? I recall some drama under Tomlin...Hines Ward/Big Ben, then there was the whole taking the games away and flips into the end zone will result in benchings. I haven't heard anything about Bryant being benched this week...if you nit pick enough, you can find little things on every coach to argue they aren't better than the other.

I don't recall Andy Reid ever stepping on the field during a special team return...

Fair enough. I totally recognize that it is my anti-Reid irrational bias coming in to play here. I have no real reason why, just always felt he was an over-rated kinda "meh" of a coach.

[teegre]

ANDY REID:
My best friend in college was a diehard Eagles fan. He loved Andy Reid, but his brethren ripped Reid (far worse than anyone rips Tomlin). He spent a decade defending Reid... but, as he admitted: "I'd take Tomlin over Reid in a heartbeat."
Summation: I'll heed my friend's advice.

[hawaiiansteeler]

My favorite Andy Reid moment. :sofunny:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSHFDhh0gJs

it's amazing how much bigger Andy Reid is than all of those other participants.

if my kid had lost to him I would have demanded to see his birth certificate and drivers license...:chuckle:

[fansince'76]

ANDY REID:
My best friend in college was a diehard Eagles fan. He loved Andy Reid, but his brethren ripped Reid (far worse than anyone rips Tomlin).

I'll bet. Those Eagles fans are a nasty bunch.

[ALLD]

I'm not saying Tomlin isn't a good coach. At times he has some major mental lapses and he just doesn't get "it" sometimes IMO...like playing Justin Brown over Lance Moore and Martavis Bryant (for example) but overall. His teams have tendencies to play down and then below competition. They at times seem very undisciplined and unprepared. He's had some issues with challenges and lack there of. I'd be willing to bet if you had 50 people rank the Top-10 coaches in the league, you'd get 35 of them being totally different. I'm not saying I'm not Pro-Mike...most of the time I am. There are times however when the team seems unprepared, plays down to the competition, plays stupid that if they fired him the next day, I wouldn't care. If they lose to Reid and the Chiefs this week, this would be one of those times...lol.

Everybody agrees that Tomlin is good, but he has weaknesses. Sometimes the team is unprepared as recently as Week 1 against the Pats. Then our signature of playing down to competition is some kind of character flaw due to lack of discipline and consistency. You have to admit he is the best as platitudes and non sequiturs during press conferences.

[steelreserve]

2007: Timmons good starter
2008: Spinny decent starter
2009: Hood total bust
2010: Pouncey All-Pro
2011: Heyward Pro Bowler (soon to be)
2012: DD Pro Bowler (soon to be)
2013: Jones likely bust
2014: Shazier good but who knows
2015: Dupree too early, looks like (at least) a good starter


A couple there not quite accurate if you ask me. Hood being the most glaring. If we had him playing a position he wasn't suited for - guess what, that's on us for drafting the wrong guy and/or refusing to adjust our scheme to use him correctly. Blame that on old Round-Hole-Square-Peg Lebeau if you want, but ultimately the head coach is the one in charge.

I think the problem was just that Hood sucked, since he did just as poorly with Jacksonville as with us. Cut from the Jaguars. </career>



30% of the draft picks become busts.
30% of the draft picks become fringe players/role players.
30% of the draft picks become decent starters.
3% of the draft picks become good starters.
3% of the draft picks become Pro Bowlers.
3% of the draft picks become All-Pros.
1% of the draft picks become HOFers.

I call bullshit on that. One Pro Bowler and one good starter in the entire first round each year? They are just pulling numbers out of their asses.

2011 first round: 14 Pro Bowlers
2010 first round: 16 Pro Bowlers
2009 first round: 9 Pro Bowlers
2008 first round: 10 Pro Bowlers
2007 first round: 16 Pro Bowlers

So really, you've got more like a 40-50% chance of getting a star player in the first round, and the substantial majority at least ought to be decent.

Add to that the fact that we've used almost all of our top draft picks on positions that are not typically high-demand positions in the first round - inside linebackers, non-pass rushing defensive ends and interior offensive linemen - and we OUGHT to be getting the best or second-best player in each class. So our success in the first round is nothing special.

Meanwhile, the positions where good players are rarer - CB, S, NT, and pass-rushing OLB - are a dumpster fire. The price you pay for using your high picks on the easy stuff. The one time we tried for a high-demand skill position (Jones) we failed miserably. Maybe Dupree will change that but - two first-round picks (plus a second (Worilds)) for one player: Not a high payoff.

Who did we get in the first round prior to Tomlin? Holmes, Miller, Roethlisberger, Polamalu, Simmons, Hampton, Burress. Six impact players at impact positions, plus a pretty good starter at OL. In the meantime, we picked up the rest of the offensive line and the defense in the lower rounds. THAT'S what a run of draft success looks like.

Right now on defense, we've got four first-round picks at LB, a first-round and a second-round pick at DE, and everybody else sucks. That's what draft un-success looks like.

[fansince'76]

I call bullshit on that. One Pro Bowler and one good starter in the entire first round each year? They are just pulling numbers out of their asses.

2011 first round: 14 Pro Bowlers
2010 first round: 16 Pro Bowlers
2009 first round: 9 Pro Bowlers
2008 first round: 10 Pro Bowlers
2007 first round: 16 Pro Bowlers

So really, you've got more like a 40-50% chance of getting a star player in the first round, and the substantial majority at least ought to be decent
.

Where are you getting these numbers, exactly? A 40-50% chance of a star player in the first seems a bit (more like way) too high to me.

And how many of those Pro Bowlers were actually 6th or 7th "alternates" because the other half dozen players that were named to the Pro Bowl ahead of them simply dropped out of that joke of a game? It's damn near a crime that the Pro Bowl is still even being used as a metric for HoF induction.

Now, how many of those same players ever made All-Pro? (a MUCH better measuring stick)

This is a recent article from the NY Post about each team's drafting over the last 5 years (2010-14). The most Pro Bowlers any one team has had in 5 entire drafts is 7 (Seahawks). The Cowboys have had 5. Everyone else has had 4 or fewer. The Steelers have had 4.

http://nypost.com/2015/04/25/an-exhaustive-ranking-of-every-nfl-teams-draft-haul-since-2010/

[steelreserve]

Where are you getting these numbers, exactly? A 40-50% chance of a star player in the first seems a bit (more like way) too high to me.

And how many of those Pro Bowlers were actually 6th or 7th "alternates" because the other half dozen players that were named to the Pro Bowl ahead of them simply dropped out of that joke of a game? It's damn near a crime that the Pro Bowl is still even being used as a metric for HoF induction.

Now, how many of those same players ever made All-Pro? (a MUCH better measuring stick)


Really you can get that from just about any draft history list including Wikipedia. I don't know how many were alternates or All-Pros, but even to get in as an alternate, you need to have a good season. If you want to debate how to define "star" versus merely "good," then there may be something to talk about, but the point is it is not 3% or 6% or 10% of the guys drafted in the first round that are impact players and the other 90% are just OK. You use a first-round pick on a guy, AT MINIMUM you are expecting a solid starter and anything less is a disappointment.



This is a recent article from the NY Post about each team's drafting over the last 5 years (2010-14). The most Pro Bowlers any one team has had in 5 entire drafts is 7 (Seahawks). The Cowboys have had 5. Everyone else has had 4 or fewer. The Steelers have had 4.

http://nypost.com/2015/04/25/an-exha...ul-since-2010/

That's great, but to be expected. You draft a center or an offensive guard with picks 18-25, you SHOULD be getting one of the best ones in the league. Take an ILB in the top half of the first round, or a non-pass rushing DE anywhere in the first, and you SHOULD be getting a guy who's a badass. Those are not surprises to me. We did a great job hitting on Brown and Bell, but the rest is pretty much as expected given the picks we spent and the positions they were for.

[teegre]

I call bullshit on that. One Pro Bowler and one good starter in the entire first round each year? They are just pulling numbers out of their asses.

2011 first round: 14 Pro Bowlers
2010 first round: 16 Pro Bowlers
2009 first round: 9 Pro Bowlers
2008 first round: 10 Pro Bowlers
2007 first round: 16 Pro Bowlers



How many of those guys were "one time" Pro Bowlers? I'm guessing a lot.

The ESPNer considered a Pro Bowl level (and an All-Pro level) player as one who is there routinely: Brees AP, Megatron.

A guy who gets there once us a decent starter; a guy who goes two/three times is a good starter; et cetera...

30% + 3% + 3% + 3% + 1% = the 40% tgat you see on Wikipedia.

[fansince'76]

Really you can get that from just about any draft history list including Wikipedia. I don't know how many were alternates or All-Pros, but even to get in as an alternate, you need to have a good season.

Debatable. Andy Dalton and Matthew Stafford played in it last year and neither one of them deserved to be anywhere near an "All-Star" game unless they bought a ticket to it. It seems that after about the 2nd or 3rd alternate turns them down, they pretty much start looking for anyone in the NFL with a pulse. And don't even get me started on the fan voting aspect of it.


That's great, but to be expected. You draft a center or an offensive guard with picks 18-25, you SHOULD be getting one of the best ones in the league. Take an ILB in the top half of the first round, or a non-pass rushing DE anywhere in the first, and you SHOULD be getting a guy who's a badass. Those are not surprises to me. We did a great job hitting on Brown and Bell, but the rest is pretty much as expected given the picks we spent and the positions they were for.
On the flip side of that, there's nobody out there really doing leaps and bounds better than the Steelers either.

I still think the vast majority of college players, including the blue chip, "can't miss" prospects either simply do not make the jump to the next level and wash out or they never live up to their billing or their draft positions. I beg to differ with you as, IMO, the first round is where you try to get difference makers, not solid starters.

For a random example, look at the top 10 picks in 2012 (http://www.sbnation.com/2012-nfl-draft/2012/4/27/2980126/nfl-draft-results-1st-round-2012). Richardson - bust. RGIII - bust. Kalil - bust. Blackmon - bust. Claiborne - bust. Have Tannehill, Mark Barron or Stephon Gilmore lived up to being top-10 picks? I'd say no.

In fact, looking at that list only Kuechly has truly lived up to his draft position so far. I'd also say that half those guys would be out of the league completely by now if they had gone in the 3rd round or lower. And I'm sorry, but for as much as the media tries to anoint Luck, the kid still throws way too many INTs.

[Mojouw]

You have to put all this draft stuff in context. The only comparative is not some arbitrary standard or perception - even if it does come from a former NFL GM.

Taking a first round pick at a non premium position (listed above as interior OL, non-pass rushing DE, ILB) can actually be a really sound strategy. Look at other teams that have picked at the latter half of the 1st round for much of the last decade, like the Steelers have. They tend to take similar players. But when teams in the latter half of the first round try and fill those "premium" positions late in the round - it blows up in their faces. Look at the Pats and CBs. It got so bad they had to basically buy an entire secondary last season.

I said it earlier, look at the Ravens. Similar restock/rebuild as the Steelers. Which team has come out the other side of it with a better roster? Hands down Pittsburgh. W/out question. So, I mean how bad can the FO really be doing? Most seem to think that Ozzie Newsome is a draft savant.

The Pats have reloaded as well. They argueably did an even better job than Pittsburgh. But what did they re-build their defense around? Spending first round picks on Talented ILB and OLB/DE hybrids that other teams passed on. Gee -- what other team does that sound like?

I realize that post after post in thread after thread, I seem like I am totally in the tank for the coaching staff and the front office. But it isn't that I think they are without fault - I definitely think they have some problems. But every franchise does. And I would rather have this organizations problems than most of the others.

[Craic]

You have to put all this draft stuff in context. The only comparative is not some arbitrary standard or perception - even if it does come from a former NFL GM.

Taking a first round pick at a non premium position (listed above as interior OL, non-pass rushing DE, ILB) can actually be a really sound strategy. Look at other teams that have picked at the latter half of the 1st round for much of the last decade, like the Steelers have. They tend to take similar players. But when teams in the latter half of the first round try and fill those "premium" positions late in the round - it blows up in their faces. Look at the Pats and CBs. It got so bad they had to basically buy an entire secondary last season.

I said it earlier, look at the Ravens. Similar restock/rebuild as the Steelers. Which team has come out the other side of it with a better roster? Hands down Pittsburgh. W/out question. So, I mean how bad can the FO really be doing? Most seem to think that Ozzie Newsome is a draft savant.

The Pats have reloaded as well. They argueably did an even better job than Pittsburgh. But what did they re-build their defense around? Spending first round picks on Talented ILB and OLB/DE hybrids that other teams passed on. Gee -- what other team does that sound like?


This.


I realize that post after post in thread after thread, I seem like I am totally in the tank for the coaching staff and the front office. But it isn't that I think they are without fault - I definitely think they have some problems. But every franchise does. And I would rather have this organizations problems than most of the others.

And ABSOLUTELY this.

[teegre]

Interesting mindset:

Pouncey is an All-Pro... but, that's not an important enough position to warrant calling it a good pick.

Heyward & Tuitt are on their way to stardom... but again, that's not an important enough position to warrant calling them good picks.

AB and Bell are the best at their respective positions... but, that is sloughed off as though it is commonplace for every team.

SUMMATION:
Even when Tomlin finds good players, it's somehow at the wrong position... (or, some other rationalization as to why it wasn't a good pick). :huh:

If that is indeed the mindset, if one truly believes that Tomlin messed up those picks... then there is no way that a person with that mindset would ever consider him to be a good coach

[Steeldude]

My opinion : )

2007: Timmons - good starter
2008: Spinny - wasted pick
2009: Hood - serviceable, but didn't live up to his billing.
2010: Pouncey - good starter(too bad he is unlucky with injuries)
2011: Heyward - good starter
2012: DD - good starter
2013: Jones - bad pick
2014: Shazier - too early, but shows signs of being a good starter(needs to stay healthy)
2015: Dupree - too early

[86WARD]

Everybody agrees that Tomlin is good, but he has weaknesses. Sometimes the team is unprepared as recently as Week 1 against the Pats. Then our signature of playing down to competition is some kind of character flaw due to lack of discipline and consistency. You have to admit he is the best as platitudes and non sequiturs during press conferences.

Andy Reid was horrible at press conferences...probably the king of taking the blame and giving nothing to the media..."the time is yours."

[ETL]

Easy. Basically to most fickle Steeler fans - if the Steelers win the past Sunday - he's a top 4 coach. If the Steelers lose - he's a bottom 4 coach.

How can I trust anyone's post - when they can just say "it was an over- reactions" when the Steelers start winning and "I told you so" when they keep on losing. It's so so predictable because it's the same pattern on every teams message board.


personally I see Tomlin as a top coach because his players seem to respect his honesty with them and he seems to try to get the most out of his players

[hawaiiansteeler]

no, try as i might i could not find 4 active NFL head coaches that i think are better than Cool Shades...

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/pg-photo/2015/06/30/0ap3000000499526/6-mike-tomlin-pittsburgh-steelers_pg_600.jpg

[zulater]

Easy. Basically to most fickle Steeler fans - if the Steelers win the past Sunday - he's a top 4 coach. If the Steelers lose - he's a bottom 4 coach.

How can I trust anyone's post - when they can just say "it was an over- reactions" when the Steelers start winning and "I told you so" when they keep on losing. It's so so predictable because it's the same pattern on every teams message board.


personally I see Tomlin as a top coach because his players seem to respect his honesty with them and he seems to try to get the most out of his players

Why did you give us your opinion after explaining to us how worthless all of our opinions are as they are all driven by the most recent thing that happened? Or I suppose you, the person who posed the question of whether Landry Jones is the next Tom Brady to Big Ben's, Drew Bledsoe, is above that sort of thing? Right.....:coffee:

[teegre]

2009: Hood - serviceable, but didn't live up to his billing.


I think that you & I are two (of about five) Steelers fans who feel even that positively towards Hood.

Everyone else seems to hate him thoroughly.

[hawaiiansteeler]

I think that you & I are two (of about five) Steelers fans who feel even that positively towards Hood.

Everyone else seems to hate him thoroughly.

I don't hate Ziggy either.

I just think he was miscast as a 3-4 DE, he would have been much better off if he had been drafted initially by a team that ran a 4-3 scheme...

[steelreserve]

Interesting mindset:

Pouncey is an All-Pro... but, that's not an important enough position to warrant calling it a good pick.

Heyward & Tuitt are on their way to stardom... but again, that's not an important enough position to warrant calling them good picks.

AB and Bell are the best at their respective positions... but, that is sloughed off as though it is commonplace for every team.

SUMMATION:
Even when Tomlin finds good players, it's somehow at the wrong position... (or, some other rationalization as to why it wasn't a good pick). :huh:

If that is indeed the mindset, if one truly believes that Tomlin messed up those picks... then there is no way that a person with that mindset would ever consider him to be a good coach


None of that. My mindset is that apart from Bell and Brown, which were obvious home runs, he did as expected with the high picks and most of the low picks sucked major ass.

We are not the only team to get an All-Pro with a first-round pick. That's nice that it happened, but mathematically, every 4 or 5 years you SHOULD get one. I don't know why everyone should bow down in awe because of it.

That explain it any better?

[Butch]

Tomlin absolutely frustrates me at times. His stepping on the field of play is un-excusable. His Tomlinism's always seem to fall flat "Unleash Hell in December". His clock management and some of the plays he does not challenge (yes I saw the stat on how successful he is, but there are times where he needs to challenge and he doesn't). One of the most head scratching draft picks I have ever seen was taking Dri Archer where he did.

I get particularly upset with us bringing is guys that end up in this Bull Shit "Dog House" of Tomlins. That needs a whole lot more explanation before I would sign off on it. And if there is a Dog House why wasn't Blount ever just stuffed in it and left to Rot??? Can Boykins be worse than that?

I also have to wonder how much of his staff has been "forced" on him. Haley? Lebeau? and maybe he was forced to let go of B.A.? I don't know. I do think that the staff the coach has around him is a telling sign of how good a coach is. I think that Cowher had some great staff's in his time.

All that being said I don't think Mike is a terrible coach. I am interested in seeing how things play out this year with all the big loses we have had to endure. Not many coaches out there can win with the hand we were dealt.

As for Peyton and the mentioning of bountygate IMHO that was go to hell's own witch hunt and one that was not proven to be true. It tore that team apart and so I don't pin that on him rather a way for go to hell to wield his hatred for certain teams. Maybe he is anti black and gold?

[teegre]

None of that. My mindset is that apart from Bell and Brown, which were obvious home runs, he did as expected with the high picks and most of the low picks sucked major ass.

We are not the only team to get an All-Pro with a first-round pick. That's nice that it happened, but mathematically, every 4 or 5 years you SHOULD get one. I don't know why everyone should bow down in awe because of it.

That explain it any better?

There are 44 All-Pros.

Tomlin draft picks are 3 of them... 7%.

There are 32 teams; so, the average should be 1/32... 3%.

SUMMATION:
Tomlin draft picks have more than double the success rate of the average team.

[StillCurtains]

Belichick, McCarthy, Harbaugh, Arians

I'm not going on recent head to head matchups, but consistency and in game decision making.

[StillCurtains]

As a coach, Tomlin has glaring issues. Clock Management, challenges, roster decisions. Yet despite that, he does remain a highly effective NFL coach. Comparing him to Cowher at this stage is becoming more and more relevant. At times Cowher had losing seasons. He also had issues -- Martyball, loyalty to Kordell, failure to value the QB position. But he was an excellent coach, and he could easily step right back into the elite ranks of the NFL is he wanted to.

Tomlin is the same way. Not perfect, but clearly capable of helming the flagship team of the NFL to repeated success. Another superbowl win, even one this year with all the injuries, is not out of the question, and how are the Harbaugh brother's chances doing right about now? Sustained success matters--the more times you get to the playoffs, the more likely it is you go all the way. Peak and valley teams don't tend to make it back for a loooooooong time. I'll take Tomlin, given the alternatives. Warts and all.

(This won't keep me from internet posting his boneheaded moves though)

Dissolv

To Harbaugh's credit, yes they are having a bad season, but he's only missed 1 playoff apperance in his career. He also led Baltimore to the playoffs last year with a completely decimated secondary, nearly beating New England. You're bound to be hit with the unlucky stick at some point, but Harbaugh is a good coach.

[teegre]

To Harbaugh's credit, yes they are having a bad season, but he's only missed 1 playoff apperance in his career. He also led Baltimore to the playoffs last year with a completely decimated secondary, nearly beating New England. You're bound to be hit with the unlucky stick at some point, but Harbaugh is a good coach.

Yeah... but, the whining. That God-awful, incessant whining. :boom:

[hawaiiansteeler]

Yeah... but, the whining. That God-awful, incessant whining. :boom:

the whining crybaby Hairball Brothers:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4c/11/d0/4c11d0e4577e5740cfce750664d0a5ec.jpg

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Yeah... but, the whining. That God-awful, incessant whining. :boom:

http://sportshoop.la/attachments/ravens-head-coach-john-harbaugh-leads-his-team-against-the-the-washington-redskins-in-baltimore-jpg.32745/

[StillCurtains]

Yeah... but, the whining. That God-awful, incessant whining. :boom:

You have a point there!

[j-d-s]

I don't think Tomlin is a Top5 coach in the NFL. He's one of the better ones, but not one of the best. Tomlin depends a lot on the circumstances, nobody would fear a team just because Tomlin is the coach and Tomlin would not be able to turn a historically bad team around. Here in Pittsburgh he has a good front office and excellent coaches around him - I give massive credit to Haley and especially Munchak for our success. I don't say Tomlin has no part in all that, but he certainly is not the only reason and thus is probably around 10-15.

Better coaches than Tomlin in my opion: Belicheat, Coughlin, Carroll, Payton, Reid, Harbaugh, McCarthy, Fisher, plus a couple of guys you could debate about (wanna discuss Arians? :chuckle:). Some guys like Jim Harbaugh and Jon Gruden are also good, but not in the NFL at this time.


Easy. Basically to most fickle Steeler fans - if the Steelers win the past Sunday - he's a top 4 coach. If the Steelers lose - he's a bottom 4 coach.

How can I trust anyone's post - when they can just say "it was an over- reactions" when the Steelers start winning and "I told you so" when they keep on losing. It's so so predictable because it's the same pattern on every teams message board.


personally I see Tomlin as a top coach because his players seem to respect his honesty with them and he seems to try to get the most out of his players


Well, he won two games (out of three) with Mike Vick and Landry Jones at QB. That's quite an achievement...

[86WARD]

I think Gruden was overrated

[steelreserve]

There are 44 All-Pros.

Tomlin draft picks are 3 of them... 7%.

There are 32 teams; so, the average should be 1/32... 3%.

SUMMATION:
Tomlin draft picks have more than double the success rate of the average team.


The discussion was about first-round picks. He's done as well as expected there. You get an All-Pro player anywhere else, you're more lucky than good. Or are you implying Tomlin had some kind of crystal ball when drafting Brown? If so, why do all our other late-round picks suck so bad? Wait, that's right - he's just doing that to throw everyone else off. What a move - he's the ultimate hustler.

Draft success is not just about finding the good players in the high rounds, which honestly you SHOULD be able to do. It's also equal parts finding the correct players to fill needs, and building depth in the lower rounds. So to me, he's 1 out of 3. Fine, call him twice as successful as average at the first part; we still have a ton of holes and question marks thanks to our problems with the draft.

[LLT]

Both Harbaughs. Hate to say it.

I don't know if they are better coaches...but I DO know they have the worst sportsmanship in sports.

No thank you...those arrogant jack-wagons can poison some other team.

[teegre]

The discussion was about first-round picks. He's done as well as expected there. You get an All-Pro player anywhere else, you're more lucky than good. Or are you implying Tomlin had some kind of crystal ball when drafting Brown? If so, why do all our other late-round picks suck so bad? Wait, that's right - he's just doing that to throw everyone else off. What a move - he's the ultimate hustler.

Draft success is not just about finding the good players in the high rounds, which honestly you SHOULD be able to do. It's also equal parts finding the correct players to fill needs, and building depth in the lower rounds. So to me, he's 1 out of 3. Fine, call him twice as successful as average at the first part; we still have a ton of holes and question marks thanks to our problems with the draft.

If we are going to discount All Pros who weren't R1 picks, then we'd have to eliminate Brady, Sherman, Romo, Murray, Bell, Gronkowski, Nelson, Dumerville, Houston, Wagner and about five others.

Yes, they got lucky with AB. At the same time, they had a scout at his games... and no other NFL team had a scout there.

Everyone and their mother chastised Tomlin for taking Bell over Lacy. Tomlin stuck by his pick; so, I give him full credit for that pick.



Look at most teams' drafts (not just the Steelers' drafts). Every team has holes. Even the best-drafting team (Seahawks) struggles to fill all 22 starting spots (they have no receivers). The Steelers have a horrible secondary... okay, they're just like the Taperiots and the Ravens in that regard. The Steelers offense more than makes up for that deficiency (much like the Taperiots).

[Mojouw]

Compare Tomlin and Colbert's draft record against any other coach/GM combination in the league. I will bet that you will be surprised how frequently Tomlin and Colbert come out on top.

[Steeldude]

Tomlin prefers Jones over Harrison. Clueless.

Blake remains a starter. Clueless.

Boykins is traded, but rots on the bench because the other CBs are just so much better? Clueless.

[86WARD]

I was hoping Tomlin would prove me wrong...still think Reid is a better coach.

[hawaiiansteeler]

I was hoping Tomlin would prove me wrong...still think Reid is a better coach.

he was today...

[NCSteeler]

he was today...

Bullshit, Reid wouldn't win shit with KCs third string QB under center


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[polamalubeast]

I was hoping Tomlin would prove me wrong...still think Reid is a better coach.


2-5....

[teegre]

Bullshit, Reid wouldn't win shit with KCs third string QB under center


Exactly

[Mojouw]

This was predictable. 3rd string qb. LT that is a rookie to the league and the position. But yeah. This one is on Tomlin. I see that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[polamalubeast]

2-5....


2-5 with one of the most talented teams in the nfl ....

[fansince'76]

This was predictable. 3rd string qb. LT that is a rookie to the league and the position. But yeah. This one is on Tomlin. I see that.

Isn't that always the way, though?

[CapLovesTroyP43]

Summation: Not unless he promised stop being an evil fuck. :sofunny:


I don't know why, but that one got me laughing so hard I got tears running down my cheeks!:chuckle:

Teeg you are too dam cool!!!!

[hawaiiansteeler]

This was predictable. 3rd string qb. LT that is a rookie to the league and the position. But yeah. This one is on Tomlin. I see that.


I understand what you're saying but when you're hurting on offense you need to rely on your defense to help you win the game.

Antwon Blake is the #107 ranked out of 109 CBs and yet Tomlin still starts him.

that's on Tomlin...

[Mojouw]

I understand what you're saying but when you're hurting on offense you need to rely on your defense to help you win the game.

Antwon Blake is the #107 ranked out of 109 CBs and yet Tomlin still starts him.

that's on Tomlin...

Because who else is going to play there?

Cortez Allen? If he isn't still hurt he hasn't demonstrated he can play any better.

Boykin? The assumption is that he is the answer. He has the NFL film to back up that he should be. I am going to make the assumption that there is an actual reason for him not playing. If it is proven otherwise, than Tomlin and Butler and Lake will have a ton to answer for.

In general, did anyone really expect anything out of this secondary this season? Can we really sit here and be surprised? For much of the off-season we were all hanging our hopes on rookie garden nome sized CB to save the secondary. The bottom line is that there is not a lot of talent to work with in the entire position group. For crying out loud, Robert Golden is getting snaps.

In order for the secondary to not continue to get exposed, the Steelers need to start getting contributions from Shamarko, Cortez, and Boykin. If they can not or are unwilling to try, then cut all three and roll the dice on someone else.

[st33lersguy]

Problem with Tomlin is how consistently he loses to bottom-feeder teams that win 4 games or fewer in a season all the mind-numbingly awful personnel decisions he makes. Tomlin will find a crappy player and keep in on the team for absolutely no reason

[ALLD]

Only chance we have is to get the wildcard and then play the Bengals in the first round where they could go 16-0 in the regular season and then one and done in the playoffs.

[TeeTee]

Oh, we can add one: ANDY REID!

[Drazo85]

Steelers are 2-2 with second and third QB this season starting games.
Rest of the NFL is 3-9 (and Matt Haselback won two of those).
Cowboys are losing to Giants right now, so this record can be worse.

[teegre]

Oh, we can add one: ANDY REID!

Would you actually rather be 2-5???

[hawaiiansteeler]

Steelers are 2-2 with second and third QB this season starting games.
Rest of the NFL is 3-9 (and Matt Haselback won two of those).
Cowboys are losing to Giants right now, so this record can be worse.

you make a great point! :drink:

it's hard enough to win in the NFL with your starting QB, never mind with your 2nd, 3rd and 4th string backup QBs...

[smokin3000gt]

Would you actually rather be 2-5???

Of course he would. Then he could cry about Tomlin more than he does now. derppp

[86WARD]

Bullshit, Reid wouldn't win shit with KCs third string QB under center


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He would with the team Tomlin has. He won with Koy Detmer.

[polamalubeast]

He would with the team Tomlin has. He won with Koy Detmer.


Tomlin won 2 games with Dennis Dixon in 2010.....DENNIS DIXON

[86WARD]

Tomlin won 2 games with Dennis Dixon in 2010.....DENNIS DIXON

Who is better than Koy Detmer. KOY DETMER...

Then there's Doug Pederson, AJ Feeley and he won games with Mike McMahon...lol.

[polamalubeast]

Who is better than Koy Detmer. KOY DETMER...

Then there's Doug Pederson, AJ Feeley and he won games with Mike McMahon...lol.

This is not true that Dixon was better.

Also Reid won nothing since the death of Jim Johnson(former DC of the eagles)

[86WARD]

Not sure you've ever watched Detmer then...lol. The Johnson death thing is way overrated...there were times they didn't win with him and they went 10-6 and 8-8 the two years following his death. Not to mention the QB talent went down hill starting then as well...but that wouldn't matter...lol

[polamalubeast]

Not sure you've ever watched Detmer then...lol. The Johnson death thing is way overrated...there were times they didn't win with him and they went 10-6 and 8-8 the two years following his death. Not to mention the QB talent went down hill starting then as well...but that wouldn't matter...lol

The Eagles defense has never been the same without Jim Johnson.Just look at the stats of the eagles defense between 2009-2012 and between 2000-2008.

Several eagles fan think the success of the eagles in the first 10 year of Andy Reid was because of Jim Johnson and the eagles defense.

[86WARD]

You could make that argument about any good coordinator that moved on, switched teams, got fired, passed away...lol. Of course they would miss him, but he's not the only reason that team began to go downhill.

[Mojouw]

Any random member of the Detmer family could play better than Dennis Dixon or Landry Jones.


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[NCSteeler]

He would with the team Tomlin has. He won with Koy Detmer.

In eight games he was 3-5 , I would call that stellar. Matter of fact he was a health bench for Aj freaking Feely several games

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Well shit Lets line em up for the HOF , every damn coach that ever won a game with a total loser at QB.

[Craic]

Tomlin prefers Jones over Harrison. Clueless.

Blake remains a starter. Clueless.

Boykins is traded, but rots on the bench because the other CBs are just so much better? Clueless.

By the sounds of it, maybe you should get your resume prepared, then. Me? I prefer to believe the coaches see much more of the players than I do, and have a much better handle on their upside, downside, and everything else that the general public does not see.

[teegre]

After watching MNF, I am adding to my previous analysis...

JOHN HARBAUGH:
1-6

BRUCE ARIANS:
Can bleed out the clock by running the ball three times. Passes three times, giving the Ravens two minutes (instead of 25 seconds). Yeah... and people complain about Tomlin's clock management.

[86WARD]

By the sounds of it, maybe you should get your resume prepared, then. Me? I prefer to believe the coaches see much more of the players than I do, and have a much better handle on their upside, downside, and everything else that the general public does not see.

So what did they see in him that warranted giving up a 4-5 round pick yet don't see enough to give him more than just a tiny bit of playing time?

[hawaiiansteeler]

So what did they see in him that warranted giving up a 4-5 round pick yet don't see enough to give him more than just a tiny bit of playing time?

this really deserves its own thread...:eyebrows:

[86WARD]

Lol!! Agree!!

[TeeTee]

Would you actually rather be 2-5???

All I know is head to head, Reid proved better. He outcoached Cool Shades.

[Steeldude]

Bullshit, Reid wouldn't win shit with KCs third string QB under center


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Denver beat the Steelers with Tebow.

[TeeTee]

The Eagles defense has never been the same without Jim Johnson.Just look at the stats of the eagles defense between 2009-2012 and between 2000-2008.

Several eagles fan think the success of the eagles in the first 10 year of Andy Reid was because of Jim Johnson and the eagles defense.

Andy had some good offenses in those years. At one point, they were making a lot of NFC Championship games, only winning one, but they were still anual contenders for much of Andy's tenure at HC.

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Denver beat the Steelers with Tebow.

That loss has to be considered from coaching. I was throwing up at their D game plan. It was the only way that team and Tebow could beat us and those two fools (Cool Shades and LeBeau) never made any adjustments, leaving WRs is single coverage all day, even in OT. No safety help all day long. That was putrid job of coaching.

[86WARD]

I'd trust Reid's "gut" more than Tomlin's "gut". Reid's got more going for him in that department.

[teegre]

All I know is head to head, Reid proved better. He outcoached Cool Shades.

Norv Turner once beat Jimmy Johnson twice in the same season.

Washington was 3-13, with two of their wins against the Championship-winning Dallas Cowboys.

SUMMATION:
By your logic, you'd rather have Norv Turner than Jimmy Johnson as your head coach.

Bwahahahahah!!! :rofl2:

[NCSteeler]

Denver beat the Steelers with Tebow.

Well then John Fox is a sure lock to the HOF. Carolina fans would seriously disagree though


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[Steeldude]

Change the question to, "Can anyone name four active NFL head coaches they think are worse than Tomlin?

[86WARD]

Change the question to, "Can anyone name four active NFL head coaches they think are worse than Tomlin?

:rofl2:

[hawaiiansteeler]

Change the question to, "Can anyone name four active NFL head coaches they think are worse than Tomlin?

1) Jim Tomsula 49ers
2) Mike Pettine Browns
3) Jay Gruden Redskins
4) Gus Bradley Jaguars

[Steeldude]

1) Jim Tomsula 49ers
2) Mike Pettine Browns
3) Jay Gruden Redskins
4) Gus Bradley Jaguars

I'm not so sure : )

[Drazo85]

1) Jim Tomsula 49ers
2) Mike Pettine Browns
3) Jay Gruden Redskins
4) Gus Bradley Jaguars

5) Jim Caldwell Lions

[hawaiiansteeler]

5) Jim Caldwell Lions

that's funny, I was going to put him in there but was only asked for 4 names.

great minds obviously think alike...:drink:

[Count Steeler]

Rex Ryan Bills

[hawaiiansteeler]

Rex Ryan Bills

Mike McCoy Chargers

[86WARD]

I don't know...Gus Bradley's working wonders with Blake Bortles.

[zulater]

The next 8 games will tell you a lot about Tomlin. If we go 5-3 or better in the second half is anyone calling for Tomlin's head?

[hawaiiansteeler]

The next 8 games will tell you a lot about Tomlin. If we go 5-3 or better in the second half is anyone calling for Tomlin's head?

probably depends on whether or not 9-7 would be good enough to earn us a wildcard spot...

[86WARD]

The next 8 games will tell you a lot about Tomlin. If we go 5-3 or better in the second half is anyone calling for Tomlin's head?

If they don't make the playoffs, I say yes.

[hawaiiansteeler]

If they don't make the playoffs, I say yes.

if we're going to make the playoffs, then this next game against the Raiders is pretty much a must win...

[zulater]

probably depends on whether or not 9-7 would be good enough earn us a wildcard spot...

This season was destroyed by injuries and suspensions. I think most people will accept a 9-7 season as a indicator of a decent job given all that was lost to him.

[MrPgh]

Can anybody name four coaches that mangle clock management worse than Tomlin?

[86WARD]

Can anybody name four coaches that mangle clock management worse than Tomlin?

Mike Holmgren would be one...but he's an ex-coach.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Can anybody name four coaches that mangle clock management worse than Tomlin?

John Fox is one for sure...

[Count Steeler]

Can anybody name four coaches that mangle clock management worse than Tomlin?

Andy Reid has been known to lay an egg or two.

[Steeldude]

The next 8 games will tell you a lot about Tomlin. If we go 5-3 or better in the second half is anyone calling for Tomlin's head?

It depends on how they achieved the 5-3 record.

[86WARD]

if we're going to make the playoffs, then this next game against the Raiders is pretty much a must win...

Agree. They pretty much have to run the table in all AFC games...

[hawaiiansteeler]

Can anybody name four coaches that mangle clock management worse than Tomlin?

what do you mean, look at this clock management:

http://i64.tinypic.com/oigocx.jpg

[Mojouw]

Can anybody name four coaches that mangle clock management worse than Tomlin?

Andy Reid (technically he should count twice he is so bad)
Jim Caldwell (since I think he is a corpse that is simply propped up on the sidelines during gamedays El Cid style - or Weekend at Bernie's for you none history nerds)
Jim Tomsula (this guy is just a joke - not really fair to pile on here)
Lovie Smith (seriously, watch this guy coach sometime - it is like crossing a confused turtle with a drunk highschool JV coach from the 1950s.)

[smokin3000gt]

The next 8 games will tell you a lot about Tomlin. If we go 5-3 or better in the second half is anyone calling for Tomlin's head?

Tomlin could win another SB and coach of the year and some people would still call for cool shades' head.

[fansince'76]

Tomlin could win another SB and coach of the year and some people would still call for cool shades' head.

If he wins a second one, does he become George Seifert instead of Barry Switzer? Or maybe Tom Flores? :chuckle:

[TeeTee]

Norv Turner once beat Jimmy Johnson twice in the same season.

Washington was 3-13, with two of their wins against the Championship-winning Dallas Cowboys.

SUMMATION:
By your logic, you'd rather have Norv Turner than Jimmy Johnson as your head coach.

Bwahahahahah!!! :rofl2:

Strawman argument. I never claimed every time any coach losses to another it proves the winning coach is better. Reid has a lot more success than Turner ever did. He created/ran a contending team in Philly for a decade and quickly turned KC from a doormat to a decent team in just a year. Cool Shades took a Super Bowl champion and did get one more ring out of it, but as that team disappeared he seems more likely to forge an 8-8 team than much else. And when you have a franchise QB, almost anyone can hover at .500. Franchise QBs rarely drop below .500 regardless.

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If he wins a second one, does he become George Seifert instead of Barry Switzer? Or maybe Tom Flores? :chuckle:

If he wins another one, for sure, he exits Switzer territory and I'd say elevates beyond Seifert, who only won one ring and it was still with Walsh's team. If Cool Shades wins another, it will be with a team that has zero ties to Cowher, other than Ben, which is a big piece, but not the whole team.

[teegre]

I never claimed every time any coach losses to another it proves the winning coach is better.

So, you admit that that one lone game essentially meant nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Thanks... that was exactly my point.

[fansince'76]

Seifert won his second in '94.

[TeeTee]

So, you admit that that one lone game essentially meant nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Thanks... that was exactly my point.

You're trying to OVERLY SIMPLIFY the subject. Head-to-head is ONE factor in a multitude of others to be taken in totality. Reid has a long list of accomplishments in addition to merely winning the last game vs. Shades of Cool.

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Seifert won his second in '94.

You're right. I forgot about his earlier one, thought they still had Walsh that year, but not the case. So if Shades of Cool wins #2 he will be equal to Seifert.

[TeeTee]

I'll keep it in this thread, but don't you think, with just a little bit better coaching, we win games vs. Balt., KC and Cinci? Or at least 2 out of 3 of them?

[hawaiiansteeler]

I'll keep it in this thread, but don't you think, with just a little bit better coaching, we win games vs. Balt., KC and Cinci? Or at least 2 out of 3 of them?

with a better kicker, we beat Baltimore.

with a healthy Ben, we beat KC and Cinci...

[fansince'76]

with a better kicker, we beat Baltimore.

with a healthy Ben, we beat KC and Cinci...

This. Despite all the other injuries, if Ben doesn't go down, we're more than likely 7-1 and at the worst 6-2 (considering the defense's regression against KC in a very tough stadium to play in) right now. Very same thing that torpedoed the 2012 season for us.

[teegre]

You're trying to OVERLY SIMPLIFY the subject. Head-to-head is ONE factor in a multitude of others to be taken in totality.

No... YOU are trying to over simplify things. YOU were the one that added that Reid had beaten Tomlin head-to-head last week... as if that "one" win was somehow significant. YOU didn't say anything else; the post that YOU made (the one in contention) merely focused on that one win.

Okay, Reid beat Tomlin in one game. So what? :huh:

If you're trying to imply that that one win is significant, then see Norv Turner beating Jimmy Johnson twice in the same season.

If you're agreeing that is was merely "one" win, then we're in agreement.

[Bluecoat96]

I don't know if they are better coaches...but I DO know they have the worst sportsmanship in sports.

No thank you...those arrogant jack-wagons can poison some other team.
This is where I'm really torn. I'm a Michigan fan, and I have to admit that I really like Jim Harbaugh as the coach.

[86WARD]

No... YOU are trying to over simplify things. YOU were the one that added that Reid had beaten Tomlin head-to-head last week... as if that "one" win was somehow significant. YOU didn't say anything else; the post that YOU made (the one in contention) merely focused on that one win.

Okay, Reid beat Tomlin in one game. So what? :huh:

If you're trying to imply that that one win is significant, then see Norv Turner beating Jimmy Johnson twice in the same season.

If you're agreeing that is was merely "one" win, then we're in agreement.

Not for nothing but when the Wild Card tie breakers come to town, that one game could be very significant...it's an AFC game, it could be a head-to-head tie breaker, it's a "common opponent" game...it could wind up being significant in one way or another.

[teegre]

Not for nothing but when the Wild Card tie breakers come to town, that one game could be very significant...it's an AFC game, it could be a head-to-head tie breaker, it's a "common opponent" game...it could wind up being significant in one way or another.

One game can indeed be significant when determining playoff seeding.

One game does not have much significance when comparing head coaches.

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This is where I'm really torn. I'm a Michigan fan, and I have to admit that I really like Jim Harbaugh as the coach.

I loved him at Univ. of San Diego and at Stanford. Loved him.

But... he wasn't as whiny back then. And, I wasn't a player under him. :wink02:

[86WARD]

One game can indeed be significant when determining playoff seeding.

One game does not have much significance when comparing head coaches.


I would agree with that. I took that statement out of context.

[hawaiiansteeler]

One game does not have much significance when comparing head coaches.



One game doesn't determine who the better overall coach is.

but it's still possible to have one coach "outcoach" the other coach in one particular game...

[Mojouw]

Reading through this thread - I think that we all sometimes overestimate the impact of coaching.

Coaching isn't going to have Scooby Do make those kicks.
Coaching didn't hurt the star QBs knee.
Coaching didn't shred ligaments in the RB that your entire offense runs through.

I mean at least 2 losses this season have very little to do with coaching.

[teegre]

One game doesn't determine who the better overall coach is.

but it's still possible to have one coach "outcoach" the other coach in one particular game...

Very, very true.

[TeeTee]

No... YOU are trying to over simplify things. YOU were the one that added that Reid had beaten Tomlin head-to-head last week... as if that "one" win was somehow significant. YOU didn't say anything else; the post that YOU made (the one in contention) merely focused on that one win.

Okay, Reid beat Tomlin in one game. So what? :huh:

If you're trying to imply that that one win is significant, then see Norv Turner beating Jimmy Johnson twice in the same season.

If you're agreeing that is was merely "one" win, then we're in agreement.

I didn't elaborate, but head-to-head is _A_ factor in determining who the better coach is, which should be considered with OTHER data in totality. I honestly think Reid is a better coach than Shades of Cool.

- - - Updated - - -


Reading through this thread - I think that we all sometimes overestimate the impact of coaching.

Coaching isn't going to have Scooby Do make those kicks.
Coaching didn't hurt the star QBs knee.
Coaching didn't shred ligaments in the RB that your entire offense runs through.

I mean at least 2 losses this season have very little to do with coaching.

I thought coaching botched the Ravens' game. We had that. The last play that they failed to convert on 4th down was a dumb call.

[zulater]

The only reason this thread has any relevance or a hint of truth to it, is that coaching around the league currently sucks. I don't propose Tomlin is any good. Just the rest of the pack is equally or more worthless. I mean back in the day when you had Noll and Knox, Shula, and Landry, and Madden, and Bum Phillips etc... Before them you had giants like Paul Brown, George Allen, Weeb Eubank, and of course the greatest of them all Lombardi.

But now it's pretty much the cheatah in Bahstan and everyone else. No one distinguishes themselves anymore. Just a bunch of robotic clowns who trot out an endless stream of cliches. .

The only thing that makes Tomlin tolerable is everyone else sucks as bad or worse.