Will Allen starting over Shamarko for Pats game

[Cyphon25]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2015/09/report-will-allen-to-start-in-place-of-shamarko-thomas-against-patriots/



Good.

[teegre]

"That's surprising," said no one.

[polamalubeast]

Great(and easy) decision by Tomlin.....

[86WARD]

640521332690681856

[TD's & Beer]

Steelers will go with Allen at strong safety


PITTSBURGH - So much for the Steelers being concerned about safeties Shamarko Thomas and Mike Mitchell not playing together much in the preseason.

Thomas, who was expected to replace Troy Polamalu as the Steelers’ starting strong safety, said Sunday that he has been demoted and that veteran Will Allen will get the start when Pittsburgh travels to New England Thursday to open the NFL season.

“The starters are Mike Mitchell and Will Allen,” a disappointed Thomas said Sunday. “I’m just going to do my job and work.”

Thomas, a third-year safety out of Syracuse, said defensive backs coach Carnell Lake broke the news to him when he arrived at the team facility on the South Side.

“I just found out this morning,” he said. “I’m going to work and prepare and just put everything I’ve got into this. It’s God’s plan.”

http://www.observer-reporter.com/article/20150906/SPORTS0403/150909576

[BigNastyDefense]

Shamarko can't cover. And while Polamalu's coverage was unorthodox, it worked because he was allowed to play on instinct instead of within the scheme. Shamarko doesn't have the ability or the smarts. He can't even play within the scheme. He's never going to start at SS for the Steelers without there being injury problems.

Steelers take a safety in the first round if one's available.

[LLT]

Instant upgrade for the secondary.

Shamarko is ok in run defense but has never shown position responsibility in pass defense. In cover two it is IMPERATIVE that the safeties protect their zones and Shamarko was out of position more often then not. He left the cornerbacks hanging when they expected help over the top and we started seeing the CB's cheat to compensate. Unfortunately, that creates soft spots in the short and mid range that can exploited by quick read QB's.

So....give up the longer passes because Shamarko is out of position or give up the shorter passes because the corners are playing off and cheating back?

No choice but to play Will Allen who is WAY more cerebral then Thomas.

[Mojouw]

Thomas' problem seems to be that he is kinda dumb.

[86WARD]

Shamarko is the kind of player that Brady would feed on with big play after big play after big play and we know Shamarko has the knack for giving those up on a regular basis.

[Cyphon25]

Shamarko is the kind of player that Brady would feed on with big play after big play after big play and we know Shamarko has the knack for giving those up on a regular basis.

Yes indeed.

[polamalubeast]

Thomas was not the only reason why the defense was so bad in the preseason,but he was the biggest reason i think.....

[SteelerFanInStl]

Instant upgrade for the secondary.

Shamarko is ok in run defense but has never shown position responsibility in pass defense. In cover two it is IMPERATIVE that the safeties protect their zones and Shamarko was out of position more often then not. He left the cornerbacks hanging when they expected help over the top and we started seeing the CB's cheat to compensate. Unfortunately, that creates soft spots in the short and mid range that can exploited by quick read QB's.

So....give up the longer passes because Shamarko is out of position or give up the shorter passes because the corners are playing off and cheating back?

No choice but to play Will Allen who is WAY more cerebral then Thomas.

Definitely. I think that we've seen that Shamarko isn't the answer at SS. He's a big liability in the pass defense.

SS goes to the top of the needs list for next years draft.

[katmandu]

Definitely. I think that we've seen that Shamarko isn't the answer at SS. He's a big liability in the pass defense. Another bust that puts the Steelers deeper into the hole.

Somewhere else on this forum, it was said the coaching staff and scouts seem to have a real problem evaluating and picking players for our secondary.

I have always had faith and trust in Coach Lake, but all these issues in the secondary I'm beginning to wonder.

What is the common denominator with all the secondary troubles ?

[ALLD]

^^^ Bust is right. Had the opportunity to learn under Polamalu and blew it or maybe he just doesn't have the talent to make it in the NFL.

[polamalubeast]

The steelers are so good to find a WR in a draft,but so awful for the CB and safety....

[tube517]

Shamarko now moves to the top gunner position on ST's, moving Ventrone out of that spot

640552500156829696

[katmandu]

The steelers are so good to find a WR in a draft,but so awful for the CB and safety....Yes, and why is that ? What's lacking in the current secondary evaluation system ?

There are so many very serious issues within our secondary....... perhaps it's past time to start calling out the coaches and scouting staff ?

[cold-hard-steel]

I know i've said it many times before but if we can get a consistant pass rush it would more than likely take a lot of pressure off of our secondary.Without the pressure teams will be able to exploit our secondary at will.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Shamarko now moves to the top gunner position on ST's, moving Ventrone out of that spot

640552500156829696

remind me again why ventrone is on the team. especially since that makes 2 special teams exclusive safeties on the team

[86WARD]

remind me again why ventrone is on the team. especially since that makes 2 special teams exclusive safeties on the team
Ventrone was pretty damn good on special teams last season...not sure what to make of this...

[Steeldude]

I figured they would release Will Allen. Or maybe put Archer in the secondary so he serves some sort of purpose.

- - - Updated - - -


remind me again why ventrone is on the team. especially since that makes 2 special teams exclusive safeties on the team

Because Tomlin is a great evaluator of DB talent. Haha : )

[86WARD]

I forgot how good he was...

[GBMelBlount]

Maybe we should give the receivers we cut a tryout for our secondary.

[Edman]

^^^ Bust is right. Had the opportunity to learn under Polamalu and blew it or maybe he just doesn't have the talent to make it in the NFL.

Learn under Polamalu? Maybe that's why Shamarko is having problems. He is not Troy Polamalu.

Troy was not your typical Strong Safety. He wasn't a great fundamental cover guy and just did his damage roaming around and freelancing due to his freakish athleticism. Shamarko is no where near the athlete Troy is. Troy Polamalu is a once-in-a-generation player that we'll probably never see again. You can't really teach what Troy had.

Shamarko needs to just be Shamarko.

Shamarko Thomas should've been taught first and foremost what a safety really is and what the position is supposed to do, because right now, he's completely lacking any semblance of fundamentals. Out of position, missing tackles, taking bad angles. Not good.

[katmandu]

Yes, and why is that ? What's lacking in the current secondary evaluation system ?

There are so many very serious issues within our secondary....... perhaps it's past time to start calling out the coaches and scouting staff ?Looks like Dave likes my line of thinking as well.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2015/09/steelers-woes-of-evaluating-secondary-continues/

[steelreserve]

remind me again why ventrone is on the team. especially since that makes 2 special teams exclusive safeties on the team


So he could be one more player we smack our heads over when thinking about who else we let go?

[steelreserve]

Somewhere else on this forum, it was said the coaching staff and scouts seem to have a real problem evaluating and picking players for our secondary.

I have always had faith and trust in Coach Lake, but all these issues in the secondary I'm beginning to wonder.


Yeah, I'm wondering too. When Munchak came in to be the OL coach, the difference was noticeable almost immediately. The same guys who struggling and underachieving suddenly got their shit together.

Lake, you did not notice that difference. The players who already knew what they were doing stayed that way but did not get any better; the players who needed direction still need direction, and Cortez Allen's gotten worse. Seems like a familiar pattern. A failing pattern.

[BigNastyDefense]

I have a hard time calling a fourth round pick a bust. The guy is what he was when he was drafted out of Syracuse, a big hitter. The Steelers hoped he could learn coverages but he obviously can't. He's a good ST guy, and put him in on 4th and short and let him run full speed at the LOS and lay a hit.

Nobody would have learned a thing under Troy Polamalu. Not because he wasn't s team guy willing to teach, but because you can't teach what he did. You can't teach the football smarts that he had, the instincts he had, or the freakish athleticism that he had. He was the ONLY player allowed to play outside of the system under LeBeau. He did what he wanted as he read the offense. His responsibilities were what he felt he needed to do, not what the defensive call was. Nobody could learn the proper way to play the position under Polamalu because he played rogue.

Will Allen understands what he's supposed to do at his position. He doesn't have the physical skills Polamalu had, and he's not the freight train hitter that Shamarko is. But he's solid and you know he will do what's asked on the play call. You can't say that about Shamarko Thomas.

[hawaiiansteeler]

I have a hard time calling a fourth round pick a bust. The guy is what he was when he was drafted out of Syracuse, a big hitter. The Steelers hoped he could learn coverages but he obviously can't. He's a good ST guy, and put him in on 4th and short and let him run full speed at the LOS and lay a hit.



except we traded up for Shamarko and gave up a 3rd round draft choice to the Browns to do so...

[ETL]

I don't see why Thomas is still on this team. Are we still trying to see if he will develop into a starter?

i think I would rather have Holliman or Darby to see if they can develop. I think we know what to expect from Thomas at this point

[st33lersguy]

Will Allen is not all-pro caliber, but in his limited action, he has got the job done. Better than Shamarko

[86WARD]

I don't see why Thomas is still on this team. Are we still trying to see if he will develop into a starter?

i think I would rather have Holliman or Darby to see if they can develop. I think we know what to expect from Thomas at this point

Chuck him in the group with Landry Jones, Dri Archer and Cam Thomas...

[86WARD]

Will Allen is not all-pro caliber, but in his limited action, he has got the job done. Better than Shamarko

Totally different team with Allen in there and Allen has much, much, much more experience than Thomas...

[zulater]

Totally different team with Allen in there and Allen has much, much, much more experience than Thomas...

Trouble is we have no depth at safety. If Mitchell or Allen go down then what? The Steelers have got to learn when to pull the plug on players. The fact coach LeBeau refused to put Thomas in for even one defensive snap last year should have put this team on notice in the offseason. As opposed to projecting Thomas as a starter they should have been looking at him as someone who needed to earn a roster spot. By failing to heed LeBeau's warning the Steelers have all but screwed themselves if Mitchell or Allen miss time over an injury.

[Mojouw]

So Lebeau had to go because he hung on to veterans like Polamalu too long. But he was also a future seeing wizard because he didn't play Thomas?

Can't have it both ways.

The level of irrational assumptions and broken logic going on around here is staggering.

Remember how Cowher benching Taylor was a "great coaching move" and "forcing Taylor to get his head right"? Anyone see any parallels here? A physically gifted athlete with almost no experience trying to do too much and making mental mistakes.

Or we can all run around and yell about how they defense is terrible and the coaches are stupid, etc.

Seriously, haven't you all seen teams struggle before?

[ETL]

Trouble is we have no depth at safety. If Mitchell or Allen go down then what? The Steelers have got to learn when to pull the plug on players. The fact coach LeBeau refused to put Thomas in for even one defensive snap last year should have put this team on notice in the offseason. As opposed to projecting Thomas as a starter they should have been looking at him as someone who needed to earn a roster spot. By failing to heed LeBeau's warning the Steelers have all but screwed themselves if Mitchell or Allen miss time over an injury.

personally, I would like to see what Golden can do as a starter

[zulater]

So Lebeau had to go because he hung on to veterans like Polamalu too long. But he was also a future seeing wizard because he didn't play Thomas?

Can't have it both ways.

The level of irrational assumptions and broken logic going on around here is staggering.

Remember how Cowher benching Taylor was a "great coaching move" and "forcing Taylor to get his head right"? Anyone see any parallels here? A physically gifted athlete with almost no experience trying to do too much and making mental mistakes.

Or we can all run around and yell about how they defense is terrible and the coaches are stupid, etc.

Seriously, haven't you all seen teams struggle before?


Just because LeBeau's time was up doesn't mean he became an idiot overnight. How you can interpret LeBeau, one of the games all time great defensive minds, not playing a guy the Steelers spent a 3rd and 4th round pick on not a single defensive snap in his second year? How can that not be interpreted as a huge effing red flag? :frusty:

Call me an asshole all you like, :upyours: but projecting Shamarko as a starter after a coach of LeBeau's caliber made such an obvious statment defies logic.

[86WARD]

Just because LeBeau's time was up doesn't mean he became an idiot overnight. How you can interpret LeBeau, one of the games all time great defensive minds, not playing a guy the Steelers spent a 3rd and 4th round pick on not a single defensive snap in his second year? How can that not be interpreted as a huge effing red flag? :frusty:

Call me an asshole all you like, :upyours: but projecting Shamarko as a starter after a coach of LeBeau's caliber made such an obvious statment defies logic.

Not if that "logic" comes from Tomlin...

LeBeau not playing Thomas, especially during the time that Polamalu was injured speaks volumes in my book.

[zulater]

Not if that "logic" comes from Tomlin...

LeBeau not playing Thomas, especially during the time that Polamalu was injured speaks volumes in my book.

Thank you.

[Mojouw]

Just because LeBeau's time was up doesn't mean he became an idiot overnight. How you can interpret LeBeau, one of the games all time great defensive minds, not playing a guy the Steelers spent a 3rd and 4th round pick on not a single defensive snap in his second year? How can that not be interpreted as a huge effing red flag? :frusty:

Call me an asshole all you like, :upyours: but projecting Shamarko as a starter after a coach of LeBeau's caliber made such an obvious statment defies logic.

Well, I'm just responding to the following "logic" I have pieced together from a variety of posts around here:

1. Lebeau was too loyal to veterans and played them too long.
2. He was not willing to incorporate young players into the system.
3. Lebeau was "fired" for wanting to stick with Polamalu
4. Thomas was injured his rookie year and his second year was still "not ready" to play in the Lebeau's system.
5. Tomlin is a terrible coach and doesn't know what he is doing, etc.
6. Cowher did basically the same thing with a young Ike Taylor and he is a master motivator.

Look, maybe I came off too strong, but it wasn't meant as personal. How is what the Steelers did with Thomas any different than what any other team does when a critical player retires. You attempt to identify his replacement. You give that replacement ample practice and preseason time to demonstrate they can start at the position. If their performance mandates a re-evaluation, you pivot to the best remaining option.

We should all step back and remember that last year, everyone was calling for Thomas to step in for Troy. We should also remember that almost all Steelers watchers were relatively confident that Thomas was an up and coming player and more than ready to step in.

[zulater]

Well, I'm just responding to the following "logic" I have pieced together from a variety of posts around here:

1. Lebeau was too loyal to veterans and played them too long.
2. He was not willing to incorporate young players into the system.
3. Lebeau was "fired" for wanting to stick with Polamalu
4. Thomas was injured his rookie year and his second year was still "not ready" to play in the Lebeau's system.
5. Tomlin is a terrible coach and doesn't know what he is doing, etc.
6. Cowher did basically the same thing with a young Ike Taylor and he is a master motivator.

Look, maybe I came off too strong, but it wasn't meant as personal. How is what the Steelers did with Thomas any different than what any other team does when a critical player retires. You attempt to identify his replacement. You give that replacement ample practice and preseason time to demonstrate they can start at the position. If their performance mandates a re-evaluation, you pivot to the best remaining option.

We should all step back and remember that last year, everyone was calling for Thomas to step in for Troy. We should also remember that almost all Steelers watchers were relatively confident that Thomas was an up and coming player and more than ready to step in.


I think the Steelers force fed Thomas into the plans. He didn't prove enough in his first two seasons to be the projected starter. Again LeBeau not playing him a single snap on defense was not the norm for a player obviously valued by the organization. I guess they saw him as raw. Well now it looks as though raw actually is can't play. We've really left our self vulnerable because of this miscalculation. :frusty: Sorry but the warning signs were in place. There should have been a better plan B.

[Mojouw]

I think the Steelers force fed Thomas into the plans. He didn't prove enough in his first two seasons to be the projected starter. Again LeBeau not playing him a single snap on defense was not the norm for a player obviously valued by the organization. I guess they saw him as raw. Well now it looks as though raw actually is can't play. We've really left our self vulnerable because of this miscalculation. :frusty: Sorry but the warning signs were in place. There should have been a better plan B.

What warning signs? Thomas played some nickel corner his rookie year and looked okay-ish. Then the team said he was only going to learn how to play safety. He made no appearances and got hurt on special teams.

As for the injury thing last season. Here is what the game logs say. I had to look it up. I didn't remember.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PolaTr99/gamelog// Polamalu was out Week 10, 11, 15, 16, 17. I'm guessing one of those was the bye week.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/ThomSh00/gamelog// Thomas was out Week 6, 7,8, 10, 11.

So that means Week 10 was the bye week. So Thomas was potentially available to start for Troy in only Weeks 11, 16, and 17. Three games may not a definitive statement make.

[ETL]

The bottom line is that Thomas cannot play the pass. He is a liability. He bites on fakes and play action and takes bad angles. Hell he even plays some runs poorly and opposing offenses get big gains.

He he is a liability that should have been cut and another player should be give a chance.

This goes for Archer, Jarvis and possibly Cortez Allen. The newspaper writers will not say anything even though they see it too is because they cannot afford to be on the wrong side of Rooney and Colbert. So they stay mum. But it's pretty obvious.

I am not a person that routinely criticizes players but I see that this may be more a problem of the FO and ownership not able to admit a mistake when they clearly made one.

Colbert is regretting buying into all the hype with Jarvis Jones when other teams were dropping him off their boards. He is also regretting trading a pick to get Shamarko and taking Archer so high. But know when you make a mistake and move on.

(I must confess however that there is no one that I feel we should have drafted to make this current situation any better. There really have been no good safeties drafted in the past few years. )

- - - Updated - - -

We did ok with Ryan Clark. Maybe our future safety is on some practice squad somewhere.

[86WARD]

Saints released Kenny Phillips...he made their roster and then had to be cut due to a numbers game after being awarded two waiver pick ups...any interest?

[TD's & Beer]

I really don't care who starts - but these guys better try and stop something!

[katmandu]

Will Allen is not all-pro caliber, but in his limited action, he has got the job done. Better than ShamarkoDid anybody see Shamarko on the field last night ? I didn't.

The game recap show him having (1) Assist.

Allen was actually the leading tackler last night with (8) tackles.

[tube517]

Did anybody see Shamarko on the field last night ? I didn't.

The game recap show him having (1) Assist.

Allen was actually the leading tackler last night with (8) tackles.

I saw him running off the field after one defensive play can't remember which play. Other than that, I can't recall seeing him.

[86WARD]

I saw him running off the field after one defensive play can't remember which play. Other than that, I can't recall seeing him.

Maybe the one where they only had 10 players on he field???

[hawaiiansteeler]

Did anybody see Shamarko on the field last night ? I didn't.

The game recap show him having (1) Assist.



On the defensive side of the ball, there were quite some decisions made by the coaching staff. Brandon Boykin's zero defensive snaps and nine special teams snaps tops the charts, but Bud Dupree playing more snaps than Arthur Moats is something that most didn't see coming. James Harrison playing more snaps than Jarvis Jones shouldn't come as a shock to many, but the team's usage of Shamarko Thomas should. The team was using a lot of three-safety looks in the game on Thursday night and chose Robert Golden over Thomas as the third safety. For a player slated to be the starting safety alongside Mike Mitchell, it has been a steep fall from grace.

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2015-nfl-regular-season-pittsburgh-steelers-new-england-patriots-tickets-predictions-streaming-time-how-to-watch/2015/9/12/9315367/pittsburgh-steelers-playtime-snap-totals-vs-the-new-england-patriots

[86WARD]

Has anyone heard anything further about Allen's concussion?

[hawaiiansteeler]

Has anyone heard anything further about Allen's concussion?

The other injury to safety Will Allen is much more problematic on many levels. Allen was inserted into the starting safety position alongside Mike Mitchell, and if he were to be lost for any extended period, it would equate to Shamarko Thomas and/or Robert Golden seeing more playing time. The coaching staff doesn't show much confidence in those two players, and the safety play has been an issue with the Steelers since training camp began more than a month ago.

To compound Allen's absence from the lineup is the unknown factor of how long Allen will be forced to sit out, if he does have a concussion. If Allen is diagnosed with a concussion, the timetable for his return would be anything but cut and dried. Some players are able to get over a concussion within a week, but others might take months. There's simply no black-and-white diagnosis.

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/nfl-pittsburgh-steelers-news/2015/9/12/9314739/steelers-injury-report-sean-spence-and-will-allen-the-only-injuries

[Steeldude]

Allen is the best safety on the team. Which is not saying much. Thomas will be a disaster. Golden should get the start if Allen cannot play.

[86WARD]

So there's really been no update on Allen. Hopefully no news is good news...meaning it was more precautionary than anything.

[katmandu]

So there's really been no update on Allen. Hopefully no news is good news...meaning it was more precautionary than anything.Not necessarily. Concussions can be tricky to determine their effects.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Not necessarily. Concussions can be tricky to determine their effects.

concussions are no big deal.

I had several during my playing days and I never got no drain bamage...

[teegre]

concussions are no big deal.

I had several during my playing days and I never got no drain bamage...

I know, huh. Today's players are so... uh... what's the word???... fish scales.

[katmandu]

concussions are no big deal.

I had several during my playing days and I never got no drain bamage...I beg to differ my friend.

I "almost" lost my life from a major concussion! No joke!

When I was 15, I wiped out my 10-Speed going 42 MPH down a very steep city street. Landed on the side of my head and rolled 50ft landing underneath a car. Lost concouisness for a short time. Stayed in ICU (10) days.

Neurologist said I wasn't allowed to play any contact sports for over a year. Took me that long to heal from it.

Still have effects to this day as a result of that concussion. Happened (38) years ago.

So no, Concussions ARE a BFD. Every single one of them.

[teegre]

I beg to differ my friend.

I "almost" lost my life from a major concussion! No joke!

When I was 15, I wiped out my 10-Speed going 42 MPH down a very steep city street. Landed on the side of my head and rolled 50ft landing underneath a car. Lost concouisness for a short time. Stayed in ICU (10) days.

Neurologist said I wasn't allowed to play any contact sports for over a year. Took me that long to heal from it.

Still have effects to this day as a result of that concussion. Happened (38) years ago.

So no, Concussions ARE a BFD. Every single one of them.

(He was being facetious.)

[hawaiiansteeler]

I beg to differ my friend.

I "almost" lost my life from a major concussion! No joke!

When I was 15, I wiped out my 10-Speed going 42 MPH down a very steep city street. Landed on the side of my head and rolled 50ft landing underneath a car. Lost concouisness for a short time. Stayed in ICU (10) days.

Neurologist said I wasn't allowed to play any contact sports for over a year. Took me that long to heal from it.

Still have effects to this day as a result of that concussion. Happened (38) years ago.

So no, Concussions ARE a BFD. Every single one of them.

sorry i was just joking but you're right, the type of concussion you had is no joking matter...

[katmandu]

sorry i was just joking but you're right, the type of concussion you had is no joking matter...Oops! Sorry bout that. I was real tired when I read that the first time.

There still are a lot of folks that have no real comprehension of what damage concussions can do.

One big thing is that no two concussions are the same. Depends on what part of the brain got damaged.

[zoneblitzerII]

And surprise! Another Tomlin defensive bust.

[TeeTee]

And surprise! Another Tomlin defensive bust.

I am starting to wonder: Do you think Tomlin factors in IQ AT ALL when evaluating draft picks, especially those on D? It seems like we are having lots of guys fail from low IQ. Maybe MT doesn't even consider it.

[86WARD]

No. He looks for men that he can go to battle with on a week to week basis.