Steelers Should Sign Michael Vick

[polamalubeast]

By Ed Bouchette



Good morning,

It’s time for the Steelers to go get another backup quarterback. Now.

Bruce Gradkowski did not practice for most of the spring because he had a sore arm and he opened training camp on the physically unable to perform list for what the Steelers term “arm fatigue.’’ It is ironic that Gradkowski would have a tired arm because he has not thrown a pass in his two regular seasons with the Steelers.

The other day, Gradkowski was quoted as saying he thought it might be a few weeks before he starts practicing. In the meantime, the quarterbacks behind Ben Roethlisberger have been dreadful in the early goings of training camp, continuing their showing in the spring. It’s so bad that they have trouble handling shotgun snaps from center, dropping them and ruining yet another practice play. Wednesday was particularly bad for them.

Landry Jones and Tajh Boyd cannot be the No. 2 quarterback. Quarterbacks-to-wide receivers-to-quarterbacks Devin Gardner and Tyler Murphy should not be taking snaps at all. Murphy wears No. 16 and the Steelers probably wish the man who used to wear that number at quarterback was back in that position, Charlie Batch, instead of preparing to broadcast games for them on KDKA-TV.

But there is one quarterback out there available. He has a little age on him and he carries some old baggage. His name is Michael Vick, who turned 35 last month.

He comes from the same Tidewater area of Virginia as coach Mike Tomlin, who made inquiries about signing Vick after he was released from federal prison in 2009 after serving 21 months for his dog fighting conviction. The distractions, though, were considered too much for the Steelers and it was never seriously pursued. He signed with the Eagles that August.

Vick has since gone about working to rebuild his reputation. His teammates in Philadelphia voted him the winner of the Ed Block Courage Award. He has worked to try to get passed the Animal Fighting Spectator Prohibition Act in Congress.

He also long has had well-documented financial problems.

But he can still play football as the Steelers found out last November when he threw two touchdown passes and no interceptions in he New York Jets’ 20-13 upset victory against them. He also ran eight times for 39 yards in that game.


read more



http://sportsblogs.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers-steelers-blog/2015/07/30/Steelers-Should-Sign-Michael-Vick/stories/201507300002

[polamalubeast]

What they need right now is a quality backup, someone who can at least handle a snap from center and does not have a mysterious sore right arm. That first preseason game against the Minnesota Vikings will look more like the Hall of Shame game with anyone but Roethlisberger playing quarterback for the Steelers with Gradkowski out. And Mike Tomlin is not about to let Roethlisberger play much in that game.

http://sportsblogs.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers-steelers-blog/2015/07/30/Steelers-Should-Sign-Michael-Vick/stories/201507300002

[Nadroj 20]

Why not consider it?

It's not like Gradkowski is ground breaking if he is healthy and it seems he is not healthy. We are having concerns about our QB3 possibilities so it's not like Boyd/Jones is an option we want backing up Ben.

If he comes to us healthy and at the right price, I don't hate it...

[tube517]

We all know his past but in football terms only, he is 35 and he has not made the transition to being able to think like a decent backup QB who can't rely on his feet. He is an INT machine now.

Who else is out there?

[86WARD]

Talent and experience wise, I wouldn't mind it. However, we need to keep in mind that he's left handed...so the O-Line is going to be a little different when he's in the game. Now you need a "LT" at RT...everything's going to be a little bit different. So if they are going to sign Vick, it would have to be done sooner than later for the benefit of EVERYONE on the offense. Having said that, it couldn't hurt to have him on there above Jones and Boyd. Grackle ski is a solid .500 Aqaba which is what I mainly look for in a back up. If Ben is out 4-6 games and Gradkowski can come in and go 2-2/3-3, I'm happy with that anything above that is gravy. BG can do that. Jones or Boyd...no way.

[Nadroj 20]

We all know his past but in football terms only, he is 35 and he has not made the transition to being able to think like a decent backup QB who can't rely on his feet. He is an INT machine now.

Who else is out there?

Literally no one is out there.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/quarterback/available/

Campbell has mentioned retiring and I don't think he is a better option. I don't know why Orton is even on that list, I thought he retired.

[polamalubeast]

We all know his past but in football terms only, he is 35 and he has not made the transition to being able to think like a decent backup QB who can't rely on his feet. He is an INT machine now.

Who else is out there?

Yes, but Vick would be by far the 2nd best QB of the steelers, even if they are all healthy

If Ben is injured for some games, we are in big trouble, but with Vick at least we would have a chance

[Nadroj 20]

Talent and experience wise, I wouldn't mind it. However, we need to keep in mind that he's left handed...so the O-Line is going to be a little different when he's in the game. Now you need a "LT" at RT...everything's going to be a little bit different. So if they are going to sign Vick, it would have to be done sooner than later for the benefit of EVERYONE on the offense. Having said that, it couldn't hurt to have him on there above Jones and Boyd. Grackle ski is a solid .500 Aqaba which is what I mainly look for in a back up. If Ben is out 4-6 games and Gradkowski can come in and go 2-2/3-3, I'm happy with that anything above that is gravy. BG can do that. Jones or Boyd...no way.

All good points about Vick and being left handed. Never even crossed my mind.

But can Bruce (healthy) really pull off a .500 record if Ben is out? He's never started for us and hasn't since 2010 in Oakland where he was 1-3 as a starter. He's 6-14 as a starter for his career.

[Steelman]

Literally no one is out there.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/quarterback/available/

Campbell has mentioned retiring and I don't think he is a better option. I don't know why Orton is even on that list, I thought he retired.

Jordan Palmer's been a career backup, but he could fill in some preseason games and carry clipboards. I think Tyler Thigpen started some games for the Chiefs a few years back. Other than that, sheesh...you're right, that list is scary thin. Looking like we'll need to use a 2 or 3 on a Jimmy G type in next year's draft.


Back to the OP. I'm not a fan of Michael Vick, I don't believe he would be an upgrade over Grad at this point. Plus I would have to imagine that the adjustment for a left-handed quarterback may not be something that the coaching staff would want to deal with.

[86WARD]

All good points about Vick and being left handed. Never even crossed my mind.

But can Bruce (healthy) really pull off a .500 record if Ben is out? He's never started for us and hasn't since 2010 in Oakland where he was 1-3 as a starter. He's 6-14 as a starter for his career.

Personally, I feel like he could. Obviously it depends on what part of schedule, but with the talent on the Steelers offense and if put into a somewhat simplified offense, possibly BG could be decent? I mean in the past he's been on some pretty bad teams from what I recall.

How have backup QBs done in Haley's offense in the past? Anyone know off hand?

[86WARD]

Also...is take Thigpen as a #3 over what we have.

[Nadroj 20]

Jordan Palmer's been a career backup, but he could fill in some preseason games and carry clipboards. I think Tyler Thigpen started some games for the Chiefs a few years back. Other than that, sheesh...you're right, that list is scary thin. Looking like we'll need to use a 2 or 3 on a Jimmy G type in next year's draft.


Back to the OP. I'm not a fan of Michael Vick, I don't believe he would be an upgrade over Grad at this point. Plus I would have to imagine that the adjustment for a left-handed quarterback may not be something that the coaching staff would want to deal with.

Thigpen was the only other guy that caught my eye for a second. Looking at stats he's 1-11 as a starter (1-10 with the Chiefs back in '08). They were just simply bad that year and it wasn't because of him I don't think.

In is only other start with Miami in 2010 they threw the ball 62 times! (435 yards) That's was just interesting to me, it doesn't really matter.

- - - Updated - - -


Personally, I feel like he could. Obviously it depends on what part of schedule, but with the talent on the Steelers offense and if put into a somewhat simplified offense, possibly BG could be decent? I mean in the past he's been on some pretty bad teams from what I recall.

How have backup QBs done in Haley's offense in the past? Anyone know off hand?

Sure, I agree BG could be decent and the part of the schedule would matter. And his career starting record isn't 100% fair to look at because like you said he has been on bad teams.

I thought the same thing about the talent of our offense, only I thought about it with Vick. It would be the most talented offense Vick has been a part of especially in recent years. Maybe ever.

I'd have to research backup QB's in Haley's offense. I do not know that off hand.

[polamalubeast]

The Steelers are going to be in panic if Ben gets injured, even if this is just for 2-3 games

[Nadroj 20]

Arizona:
In 2007 Matt Leinart went 3-2 as a backup
2008 Warner Started all 16 games.

Kansas City:
2009 Matt Cassel started 15 games and Brodie Croyle started 1, (0-1), though he went 23-40 230 yards 2 TD 0 int
2010 Same as 09, Cassel started all but 1 and Croyle lost his only start.
2011 Palko went 1-3 and Orton 2-1

Pittsburgh:
2012 Batch 1-1, Leftwich 0-1
2013-present started the Gradkowski era and he hasn't started.

I don't know how much that all really tells us. :chuckle:

Nobody that I saw had any great statistical games, so I guess it boils down to whether they won or lost.

[steelreserve]

I'd take him over Gradkowski for the same money. Simple reason: He's not injured. I don't know how serious this shoulder thing is with Gradkowski, but the longer it goes on as a question mark, the less I want to deal with it.

The backup's entire job is to be available. That means being a certainty, not a question mark. If you go into the season with a backup QB with a nagging injury, then you fucked up. Back in the days of Lewftwich and Batch, the backup was injured more often than Ben was, and that did us no good.

All talk about dogs and INTs aside, we know what both of these QBs are. With Gradkowski forced to start, you might win a game. With Vick forced to start, you might win a game. Take whichever one's healthy.

[fansince'76]

I'd take him over Gradkowski for the same money. Simple reason: He's not injured. I don't know how serious this shoulder thing is with Gradkowski, but the longer it goes on as a question mark, the less I want to deal with it.

The backup's entire job is to be available. That means being a certainty, not a question mark. If you go into the season with a backup QB with a nagging injury, then you fucked up. Back in the days of Lewftwich and Batch, the backup was injured more often than Ben was, and that did us no good.

All talk about dogs and INTs aside, we know what both of these QBs are. With Gradkowski forced to start, you might win a game. With Vick forced to start, you might win a game. Take whichever one's healthy.

This.

[dislocatedday]

I agree with Bouchette on this. When I read the reports of Gradkowski a couple days ago I immediately thought of bringing in Vick. A sore shoulder that prevented throwing Gradkwoski throwing in the spring and is still causing problems now making him inactive, does not sound good to me at all...........and either Landry or Tahj seeing regular season action will derail this team big time.

Vick can make plays and actually throw the football. I think he could be very successful with our offensive talent if called upon. When things went downhill with Eagles he was getting pummeled behind that offensive line, and the Jets just did not have any significant offensive firepower. I'm not saying he won;t make some bad interceptions, but I think overall he could be very successful with the Steelers if he was needed in games.

[86WARD]

Arizona:
In 2007 Matt Leinart went 3-2 as a backup
2008 Warner Started all 16 games.

Kansas City:
2009 Matt Cassel started 15 games and Brodie Croyle started 1, (0-1), though he went 23-40 230 yards 2 TD 0 int
2010 Same as 09, Cassel started all but 1 and Croyle lost his only start.
2011 Palko went 1-3 and Orton 2-1

Pittsburgh:
2012 Batch 1-1, Leftwich 0-1
2013-present started the Gradkowski era and he hasn't started.

I don't know how much that all really tells us. :chuckle:

Nobody that I saw had any great statistical games, so I guess it boils down to whether they won or lost.

My thought with Haley was just to see how successful a backup guy was...and to see if he maybe simplified the O for them...looks like 7-9 since 2007. Not terrible for back ups in Haley's offense. Not really sure there is any relation there or not...

I definitely wouldn't be opposed to Vick, but like I said, Id rather see him in there now so everyone could get accustomed to the left handed guy.

[Nadroj 20]

I'd take him over Gradkowski for the same money. Simple reason: He's not injured. I don't know how serious this shoulder thing is with Gradkowski, but the longer it goes on as a question mark, the less I want to deal with it.

The backup's entire job is to be available. That means being a certainty, not a question mark. If you go into the season with a backup QB with a nagging injury, then you fucked up. Back in the days of Lewftwich and Batch, the backup was injured more often than Ben was, and that did us no good.

All talk about dogs and INTs aside, we know what both of these QBs are. With Gradkowski forced to start, you might win a game. With Vick forced to start, you might win a game. Take whichever one's healthy.

I agree with this, but I think the only reason our chances to win a game with either as our backup is the same at this point is because Gradkowski has been here and know's the offense.

Advantage for ability and skill goes to Vick, IMO.

[polamalubeast]

My thought with Haley was just to see how successful a backup guy was...and to see if he maybe simplified the O for them...looks like 7-9 since 2007. Not terrible for back ups in Haley's offense. Not really sure there is any relation there or not...

Leinart was the starter to start the season in 2007 and after he was benched in one of its win( http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200709300crd.htm ) and the another win, he was hurt early in the game( http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200710070ram.htm )

He had a QB rating of 61.9 on 112 pass attempts in 2007

[Psycho Ward 86]

i cant believe i like this idea

[Nadroj 20]

I agree with Bouchette on this. When I read the reports of Gradkowski a couple days ago I immediately thought of bringing in Vick. A sore shoulder that prevented throwing Gradkwoski throwing in the spring and is still causing problems now making him inactive, does not sound good to me at all...........and either Landry or Tahj seeing regular season action will derail this team big time.

Vick can make plays and actually throw the football. I think he could be very successful with our offensive talent if called upon. When things went downhill with Eagles he was getting pummeled behind that offensive line, and the Jets just did not have any significant offensive firepower. I'm not saying he won;t make some bad interceptions, but I think overall he could be very successful with the Steelers if he was needed in games.

His best seasons in Philly was when they were loaded on offense. But ever since he hasn't been on good teams. I agree he'd be fine in our offense if called upon.

[Steeldude]

Yes, but Vick would be by far the 2nd best QB of the steelers, even if they are all healthy

If Ben is injured for some games, we are in big trouble, but with Vick at least we would have a chance

The Steelers already did the Kordell plan. How did that work out? Vick is horrible.

[polamalubeast]

The Steelers already did the Kordell plan. How did that work out? Vick is horrible.

He is now horrible to be a starter...but he is fine to be a backup

[86WARD]

I don't think anyone is saying Vick is good. I think they are saying he is a better option than Jones, Boyd or Gradkowski. I would be surprised if anyone is looking to sign Vick in hopes that he starts...

[86WARD]

I would believe that the dynamic between Ben and Gradkowski would be better than Ben and Vick? Just a guess...

[steelreserve]

I agree with this, but I think the only reason our chances to win a game with either as our backup is the same at this point is because Gradkowski has been here and know's the offense.

Advantage for ability and skill goes to Vick, IMO.


I think that's dead-on. And if you bring in someone else, and give them a full training camp and preseason to learn the offense, he won't be lost out there.

Vick has his well-documented issues as a QB, but in terms of overall ability it's no contest. If they were talking about getting him to be the starter, we'd all be laughing, but that's not what we're doing.

My main worry about signing Vick is that Haley would see him and turn into the Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs bird, and come up with 50 different gimmick plays that don't work and cost us a game or two, and sours the relationship between the players and coaches, etc., etc. That's a real concern.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBGpRLjNnzM

[86WARD]

I didn't even think about Haley going nuts for Vick's "athletic ability." Lol. My preference is Gradkowski just because of the familiarity and experience. But I wouldn't be totally upset if they brought Vick in now...not the third week of preseason...now.

[TeeTee]

We all know his past but in football terms only, he is 35 and he has not made the transition to being able to think like a decent backup QB who can't rely on his feet. He is an INT machine now.

Who else is out there?

He is toast. He is not only a int machine, he's a turn over machine; any time he gets touched he drops the ball and gets whacked out. I would take undrafted rookie QBs before this guy.

[Steeldude]

He is now horrible to be a starter...but he is fine to be a backup

He was always horrible as a starter too. He is dumber than a box of rocks and can't hit the side of a barn.

At the moment I can't seem to find a free agent list that is current.

[TeeTee]

What about Matt Schaub or Matt Flynn? They are not good, but they got to be better than our other options. Plus, Vick's history is very un-Steeler like. We don't need the trash history on this team.

- - - Updated - - -


He was always horrible as a starter too. He is dumber than a box of rocks and can't hit the side of a barn.

At the moment I can't seem to find a free agent list that is current.

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/51589/309/2015-nfl-free-agents

[polamalubeast]

Schaub is with the ravens and Flynn with the Patriots

You can win a game with Vick(He is 59-50-1 in his career)

This is not the case with Landry Jones and Boyd

[86WARD]

What about Matt Schaub or Matt Flynn? They are not good, but they got to be better than our other options. Plus, Vick's history is very un-Steeler like. We don't need the trash history on this team.

- - - Updated - - -



http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/51589/309/2015-nfl-free-agents

Flynn is the Patriots third string guy.

[Steeldude]

I'll take Hasselbeck and Jason Campbell over Vick every time.

Why is it that every year someone on the board wants Vick or some other running QB who cannot throw?

[86WARD]

What about Matt Moore or Shaun Hill? Either of them still available?

[polamalubeast]

What about Matt Moore or Shaun Hill? Either of them still available?

Moore is with the dolphins...Hill with the vikings

[tube517]

Flynn is the Patriots third string guy.

Damn cheaters.

Flynn would be a good backup.

[polamalubeast]

I'll take Hasselbeck and Jason Campbell over Vick every time.

Why is it that every year someone on the board wants Vick or some other running QB who cannot throw?

Hasselbeck is with the colts and Campbell with the bengals

[86WARD]

Here is the most updated list I could find...

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/30/eb8c79c9c0e92503a0327be036674601.jpg

...I would definitely stick with Gradkowski if he's healthy.

[TeeTee]

Here is the most updated list I could find...

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/30/eb8c79c9c0e92503a0327be036674601.jpg

...I would definitely stick with Gradkowski if he's healthy.

Even if Grad get's healthy, I still would prefer someone over Landy Fn Jones. I would take Kyle Orton. Pop gun arm, but can play.

[polamalubeast]

Even if Grad get's healthy, I still would prefer someone over Landy Fn Jones. I would take Kyle Orton. Pop gun arm, but can play.

Kyle Orton has retired after last season even if he was still the starter of the Buffalo Bills

[Steeldude]

Hasselbeck is with the colts and Campbell with the bengals

Campbell re-signed with the Bengals? He is a UFA on two free agent lists I have found. The list was update 6/26/15. Sportrac does not have him listed as having a current contract with anyone.

[polamalubeast]

Campbell re-signed with the Bengals? He is a UFA on two free agent lists I have found. The list was update 6/26/15. Sportrac does not have him listed as having a current contract with anyone.

I was wrong on Campbell....sorry....But Jason Campbell(Captain checkdown) is worst than Michael Vick

[ALLD]

Okay, somebody needs to say it. It's Brett Favre or Tebow time!

[fansince'76]

My main worry about signing Vick is that Haley would see him and turn into the Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs bird, and come up with 50 different gimmick plays that don't work and cost us a game or two, and sours the relationship between the players and coaches, etc., etc. That's a real concern.


Agreed. First-and-goal? Time for Vick and Archer in a two-back set and a direct snap to one of them at Pouncey's option! :doh:

[Craic]

Agreed. First-and-goal? Time for Vick and Archer in a two-back set and a direct snap to one of them at Pouncey's option! :doh:

You're so wrong. It's the Pouncey Option, where Pouncey pulls and (after turning 180 degrees from the LOS, of course), takes the handoff from Vick for a two-yard loss.

[Mojouw]

Josh Freeman.

Never mind the 'Phins resigned him.

Who knew? Not me.

More back-up QB options will emerge over the course of the preseason.

[st33lersguy]

F this article

[Nadroj 20]

Vick is the only name worth ANYTHING available right now.

And believe me I'm not saying he's great. But he could serve as a backup.

I also know about his past and all that but let's give the guy a little credit he's been out of trouble ever since. Its been 6 years, it's not like he's just getting out of jail.

[Craic]

Vick is the only name worth ANYTHING available right now.

And believe me I'm not saying he's great. But he could serve as a backup.

I also know about his past and all that but let's give the guy a little credit he's been out of trouble ever since. Its been 6 years, it's not like he's just getting out of jail.

I agree. Give him a shot in camp, that way if he does okay, we have two decent QBs going into the season. Downgrade him to 3rd when Grad gets healthy.

[Nadroj 20]

I agree. Give him a shot in camp, that way if he does okay, we have two decent QBs going into the season. Downgrade him to 3rd when Grad gets healthy.

I'd be fine with that. Get Jones and Boyd out of here.

[Count Steeler]

The alleged rapist and the dog killer. That would go over well.


Let's give other teams a couple of weeks to shed some QBs from their rosters. Or give Landry Jones a midnight visit from Silver Back, (ala Back to the Future).

[7SteelGal43]

Hell no. :smash:

[TeeTee]

The alleged rapist and the dog killer. That would go over well.


Let's give other teams a couple of weeks to shed some QBs from their rosters. Or give Landry Jones a midnight visit from Silver Back, (ala Back to the Future).

THIS

[Nadroj 20]

The alleged rapist and the dog killer. That would go over well.


Let's give other teams a couple of weeks to shed some QBs from their rosters. Or give Landry Jones a midnight visit from Silver Back, (ala Back to the Future).

If you do that you run the risk of bringing in someone later than preferred. Whether it's a guy someone sheds or we decide it has to be Vick.

With our offense I see Vick being a competent backup.

Get him in here now to learn the offense instead of waiting, especially not knowing who will be available down the road.

[86WARD]

I'd keep Gradkowski, dump Boyd and Jones, sign Thigpen.

[Steeldude]

I was wrong on Campbell....sorry....But Jason Campbell(Captain checkdown) is worst than Michael Vick

Not in my opinion. I'll take Campbell.

[Count Steeler]

But will Ben give up the #7?

[86WARD]

Of course...lol. He's not selfish like that other great...Geno Smith.

[teegre]

What about Brian Hoyer?

(Too soon?)

[polamalubeast]

What about Brian Hoyer?

(Too soon?)

He is in Houston

[teegre]

He is in Houston

(We had him... and let him go... and he did pretty well... )

[Mojouw]

If you do that you run the risk of bringing in someone later than preferred. Whether it's a guy someone sheds or we decide it has to be Vick.

With our offense I see Vick being a competent backup.

Get him in here now to learn the offense instead of waiting, especially not knowing who will be available down the road.

Vick has never learned an offense in his entire career. He is a freelancer who relies on freakish athletic ability. He no longer has that athletic ability. So what is left? A guy who can't learn offenses, has poor fundamentals, and turns the ball over.

I would much rather have the Steelers wait and grab a lottery ticket on a younger developmental guy.

[steelreserve]

Vick has never learned an offense in his entire career. He is a freelancer who relies on freakish athletic ability. He no longer has that athletic ability. So what is left? A guy who can't learn offenses, has poor fundamentals, and turns the ball over.

I would much rather have the Steelers wait and grab a lottery ticket on a younger developmental guy.


Then what do we do THIS year?

Or did you mean see who's cast off from someone else's team during training camp.

In all honesty, I think Gradkowski and Vick are our two best options, and Gradkowski is hurt. I wouldn't want either one of them starting for more than a game or so, but the same goes for anyone else who's available too. The last time your main QB could go down without you being totally screwed was around the 1980s or 1990s. Whoever is the backup QB will probably suck, but if it's Vick at least it'll be more fun to call him a bum.

[steel striker]

Sorry no on Vick.

[Mojouw]

Then what do we do THIS year?

Or did you mean see who's cast off from someone else's team during training camp.

In all honesty, I think Gradkowski and Vick are our two best options, and Gradkowski is hurt. I wouldn't want either one of them starting for more than a game or so, but the same goes for anyone else who's available too. The last time your main QB could go down without you being totally screwed was around the 1980s or 1990s. Whoever is the backup QB will probably suck, but if it's Vick at least it'll be more fun to call him a bum.

1. Gradkowski is hurt prior to the start of preseason games. We still do not know if he is hurt badly enough that it will carry into the season. If he recovers at some point before September (he should be back by the 3rd of 5 preseason games), then none of it matters. Gradkowski does not need a ton of time in camp at this point in his career. I'm sure he can go out there and hand off and throw like a dozen passes at the drop of a hat.

2. Vick is TERRIBLE at this point in his career. As in he gives you even less of a chance to win a ballgame than Gradkowski.

3. QBs are going to start getting cut in a few weeks, sign some former highly regarded draft pick and see if you can coach him up. That is essentially what Boyd is.