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hawaiiansteeler
07-14-2015, 06:53 PM
Steelers 2015 roster cuts: These veterans may be released after training camp

By Neal Coolong July 12, 2015

We have begun our descent into training camp, and will touch down at St. Vincent College in Latrobe in two weeks – or the players will, at least.

While the players’ time off isn’t over quite yet, it’s sort of like the last two weeks before returning to school. You’re not in school, but you’re mind is there, much more than it was in the middle of June.

Looking over the Steelers’ roster, there are plenty of position battles that will occur (like the one between Arthur Moats and Bud Dupree for the team’s starting left outside linebacker position). There are lots of others as well, and while Mike Tomlin tends to keep veteran players, much to the chagrin of some fans, he may be facing one of the most difficult cuts ever.

Here’s a look at some of the veterans who may not make this year’s team.

DL Cam Thomas

Fans have been thirsting for blood since Thomas came on in unspectacular fashion last year. A free agent signee in 2014, Thomas failed to impress, and now, his $1.5 million salary becomes a burden, considering the team also retained Clifton Geathers and drafted L.T. Walton in April.

The emergence of Dan McCullers last year was enough to suggest he should be worked into a consistent rotation along the defensive line, meaning Thomas’s role is really only that of a pure reserve player. If the Steelers want to keep $1.5 million invested in a back-up who will only see the field in emergency situations as well as on special teams, they certainly can, but it’s not exactly the most prudent financial move.

QB Landry Jones

Another target of the ire of Steeler Nation, Jones really is in a make-or-break year. He’s had two years to learn the offense, and reports from minicamp suggested he still wasn’t making accurate throws consistently. At what point is it time to just write off the draft pick as one that didn’t pan out and move on? The Steelers brought in multiple quarterbacks to camp – Tajh Boyd, Devin Gardner and Tyler Murphy among them – So it’s safe to assume they’re going to let Jones answer that question for them.

Darrius Heyward-Bey

While Heyward-Bey serves as much as a receiving option as he does a special teams contributor (gunner on kicks and punts, not a return man), having a veteran at the back end of the Steelers receiving depth chart makes sense, considering the amount of youth between himself and Antonio Brown. Martavis Bryant is in his second season, Markus Wheaton is in his third, and has shown signs of inconsistency (he’ll also take on the slot position this year).

This will really depend on whether one of the multiple younger, undrafted receivers show enough during camp to justify the release of the veteran on a veteran minimum contract. Odds are better DHB sticks on the roster another year, but the Steelers would also love to find a return man. If that’s in the form of, say, Eli Rogers, it’s possible the move gets made.

Mike Adams

In the final year of his rookie contract, Adams, to put it mildly, hasn’t lived up to the hope and expectations given to him as the team’s second round pick in 2012. He’s been serviceable as a jumbo package tight end, but the team has kept the massive Alejandro Villanueva around as a project going on two seasons now, and it’s not out of the question, if Adams performs poorly in camp, they give the former Army Ranger the back-up tackle position. It seems they’re grooming him for that role in 2016 anyway, considering Adams isn’t expected to return when his contract is up. The Steelers may decide to just get on with it.

to read rest of article:

http://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2015/07/12/steelers-roster-cuts-2015-veterans-training-camp/

Count Steeler
07-14-2015, 06:57 PM
Pretty much agree and hope that is the case for all of them.

stillers4me
07-14-2015, 07:25 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sueincinci/1234525508_ben_stiller_-_do_it.gif (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sueincinci/media/1234525508_ben_stiller_-_do_it.gif.html)

ALLD
07-14-2015, 07:28 PM
Bey would be the only concern for his STs play. It was not that long ago over multiple seasons where teams had their way with the Steelers' STs. They got rid of a key man and it all folded.

steelerdude15
07-14-2015, 07:39 PM
Landry Jones should have been cut last year and Brendon Kay should have been the third string quarterback. He showed a better arm and was all around better than Landry.

I wouldn't have a problem letting Cam Thomas go. Paying him 2 million dollars for a base a salary along with a $500,000 signing bonus which has a $2,500,000 cap hit is too much for a player who is nothing more than a back up. With the Stephon Tuitt getting better, is there any point in keeping Cam?

The other three... Mike Adams brings depth to a line that needs it because you can never have enough offensive linemen and the other two are good special teams players.

86WARD
07-14-2015, 09:13 PM
I don't know who this Neal guy is, but kinda hope it's true for all of them.

Here's a question...if you had to pick one to retain, which of the four would you keep?

hawaiiansteeler
07-14-2015, 09:31 PM
I don't know who this Neal guy is, but kinda hope it's true for all of them.

Here's a question...if you had to pick one to retain, which of the four would you keep?

Mike Adams

tube517
07-14-2015, 10:09 PM
Dirty Dick and Dirty Laundry need to be gone yesterday.

Mike Adams would have to do some draft day begging to stay unless Villanueva just flat out flops under Munchak.

DHB has Special Teams value and also can break Ike Taylor's record for drops.

teegre
07-14-2015, 10:27 PM
I don't know who this Neal guy is, but kinda hope it's true for all of them.

Here's a question...if you had to pick one to retain, which of the four would you keep?

Neal was an old Steelers Fever guy, who left to write for Steelers Depot. Smart guy... but, everyone at Steelers Depot has it out for Mike Adams.

Speaking of which, I'd keep Mike Adams.

Alas, I think that Adams is going to pull a Mike Vrabel: mediocre for four seasons, signs elsewhere, and finally blossoms into a Pro Bowl caliber player.

hawaiiansteeler
07-14-2015, 10:59 PM
DHB has Special Teams value and also can break Ike Taylor's record for drops.

http://imgick.pennlive.com/home/penn-media/width620/img/sports_impact/photo/17363944-mmmain.jpg

Count Steeler
07-15-2015, 04:31 AM
I don't know who this Neal guy is, but kinda hope it's true for all of them.

Here's a question...if you had to pick one to retain, which of the four would you keep?

I would like to think we would improve on each player. I also hope that they don't waste a spot on a 3rd string QB.

LLT
07-15-2015, 05:07 AM
I would like to think we would improve on each player. I also hope that they don't waste a spot on a 3rd string QB.

I was wondering what we would do if Shamarko turns the corner and Holliman ends up being the ball hawk he was in college. Do we retain Will Allen due to his leadership and experience....Robert Golden due to his worth on special teams?

I would guess We keep Allen and Golden ......and Ventrone is the odd man out.

Count Steeler
07-15-2015, 05:50 AM
I was wondering what we would do if Shamarko turns the corner and Holliman ends up being the ball hawk he was in college. Do we retain Will Allen due to his leadership and experience....Robert Golden due to his worth on special teams?

I would guess We keep Allen and Golden ......and Ventrone is the odd man out.

It's a tough call, especially for us fans. We don't really know what the coaches are thinking, even though we all think we could do a better job. Do you go with the younger, speedier, more upside potential or with the experienced, slower, disciplined position player? I would love to see a bunch of jack rabbits out there, just screaming towards the ball. The kind of defense that has 3-4 guys on the ball carrier within 2 strides of catching the ball.

Let's face it, we are pretty hopeful with the new rookies and the potential that will be on display at TC. Experience tells us, though, that some of that potential will never come to fruition. I just hope the coaching staff leans towards the younger, quicker guys and they trust in their ability to teach and develop them. Perhaps Munchak can teach some of our coaches how to coach. What he accomplished with the same personnel as previous OL coaches is just stunning. Here's hoping he rubs off on some of the other coaches.

ALLD
07-15-2015, 01:57 PM
Will Allen is still good, but his age makes this most likely his last season if the recent draft picks work out.

steelreserve
07-15-2015, 02:19 PM
If I had to keep one player, it'd be Adams, no contest. I'd probably keep him anyway for this season. He can give us average play and doesn't cost us much, so he's providing something of value to us.

As opposed to Jones and Thomas, who if either one is on the field, we're getting worse play from them than we would from a street free agent on a minimum contract. That means I don't even see where they have a place in the league, to say nothing of this team.

TeeTee
07-15-2015, 02:35 PM
Neal was an old Steelers Fever guy, who left to write for Steelers Depot. Smart guy... but, everyone at Steelers Depot has it out for Mike Adams.

Speaking of which, I'd keep Mike Adams.

Alas, I think that Adams is going to pull a Mike Vrabel: mediocre for four seasons, signs elsewhere, and finally blossoms into a Pro Bowl caliber player.

Vrabel had very few chances to prove his worth; Adams has had endless chances and sucks. Vrabel also wasn't used right. Cowher F'd that up bad. Belichick coaches him and he turns into a star. Also, Vrabel was known as a man's man who didn't kiss up to anyone. With LeBeau here, that didn't cut it. You have to virtually worship Dick to see the field.

LLT
07-15-2015, 02:50 PM
Vrabel had very few chances to prove his worth; Adams has had endless chances and sucks. Vrabel also wasn't used right. Cowher F'd that up bad. Belichick coaches him and he turns into a star. Also, Vrabel was known as a man's man who didn't kiss up to anyone. With LeBeau here, that didn't cut it. You have to virtually worship Dick to see the field.

Adams played strong in support last year. Not saying he is a starter...but to say he "sucked" isnt accurate.

Vrabel played behind Gildon (the all time Steelers sack leader) and Porter (4X pro bowler)...that is why he didnt play...not because he "wasn't used right".

Mojouw
07-15-2015, 03:01 PM
Adams played strong in support last year. Not saying he is a starter...but to say he "sucked" isnt accurate.

Vrabel played behind Gildon (the all time Steelers sack leader) and Porter (4X pro bowler)...that is why he didnt play...not because he "wasn't used right".


Also, could be argued that Vrabel was never a "star". One season with double digit sacks? I mean he was certainly solid, but not a player loss to really wring your hands over. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VrabMi20.htm

As to Adams, he stinks as a LT, but I am not convinced he is all that worse than Gilbert at RT. There are way worse guys earning paychecks in the NFL that could be the first tackle off the bench.

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Adams played strong in support last year. Not saying he is a starter...but to say he "sucked" isnt accurate.

Vrabel played behind Gildon (the all time Steelers sack leader) and Porter (4X pro bowler)...that is why he didnt play...not because he "wasn't used right".


Also, could be argued that Vrabel was never a "star". One season with double digit sacks? I mean he was certainly solid, but not a player loss to really wring your hands over. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VrabMi20.htm

Everyone's memory of Vrabel is skewed by ESPN. He was so "gritty" and he scored touchdowns and ESPN collectively lost their shit. OMG! A LBer catching passes! That's so impressive and innovative! Clearly he must be glue that holds this loaded championship roster together!

As to Adams, he stinks as a LT, but I am not convinced he is all that worse than Gilbert at RT. There are way worse guys earning paychecks in the NFL that could be the first tackle off the bench.

zulater
07-15-2015, 03:13 PM
Mike Adams sucks. As someone who watches every Steeler play multiple times on NFL rewind, paying particular attention to each individual on the line on most every play, words don't adequately describe how consistently awful Adams was.He brings next to nothing to the team. There's 20 guys on the waiver wire at any particular time that could give you as much as he does. Seriously running plays he misses his block, passing plays he misses his block, but Ben steps around the guy and most don't notice. We have great skill players in Ben and LeVeon. I couldn't count how many times those two bailed Adams sorry ass out.

DHB is the only player on that list who has any value to this team. And even with him it's strictly as a special teams player.

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Also, could be argued that Vrabel was never a "star". One season with double digit sacks? I mean he was certainly solid, but not a player loss to really wring your hands over. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VrabMi20.htm

As to Adams, he stinks as a LT, but I am not convinced he is all that worse than Gilbert at RT. There are way worse guys earning paychecks in the NFL that could be the first tackle off the bench.

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Also, could be argued that Vrabel was never a "star". One season with double digit sacks? I mean he was certainly solid, but not a player loss to really wring your hands over. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VrabMi20.htm

Everyone's memory of Vrabel is skewed by ESPN. He was so "gritty" and he scored touchdowns and ESPN collectively lost their shit. OMG! A LBer catching passes! That's so impressive and innovative! Clearly he must be glue that holds this loaded championship roster together!

As to Adams, he stinks as a LT, but I am not convinced he is all that worse than Gilbert at RT. There are way worse guys earning paychecks in the NFL that could be the first tackle off the bench.

Are you kidding me? The last half of the season Gilbert might have been the most improved player on the team. Now I'm not saying he's some great shakes, but he was more than competent from the middle of the season on. The needle is still pointing up on Gilbert. I think he'll be a slightly above average starting right tackle in this league for the next few years.

fansince'76
07-15-2015, 03:18 PM
Also, could be argued that Vrabel was never a "star". One season with double digit sacks? I mean he was certainly solid, but not a player loss to really wring your hands over. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VrabMi20.htm

Everyone's memory of Vrabel is skewed by ESPN. He was so "gritty" and he scored touchdowns and ESPN collectively lost their shit. OMG! A LBer catching passes! That's so impressive and innovative! Clearly he must be glue that holds this loaded championship roster together!

Exactly. Vrabel's knob gets slobbed because of a couple of 1-yard TD catches in a couple of Super Bowls and ESPN losing their shit over it (ZOMG! Belichick's such a GEE-NEE-USS!), and that's it.

hawaiiansteeler
07-15-2015, 03:26 PM
Mike Adams sucks.

There's 20 guys on the waiver wire at any particular time that could give you as much as he does.

no there aren't. that's a ridiculous statement...

zulater
07-15-2015, 03:30 PM
Pass Blocking Ranking: 3rd, Run Blocking Ranking: 11th, Penalties Ranking: 17th

Stud: You don’t often hear the name Kelvin Beachum mentioned, but the former seventh-round pick has developed into an excellent tackle, finishing fifth overall in our left tackle rankings.

Dud: How close are the Steelers to pulling the plug on the Mike Adams experiment? The backup lineman was forced into playing 372 snaps and garnered a team-worst -14.5 grade from them.

Breakdown: It’s taken some years but the Steelers have transformed from one of the worst lines in the league to one of the best. Young talent has come through and delivered, with Beachum, Marcus Gilbert and David DeCastro all grading positively. Special mention for Maurkice Pouncey who is finally playing up to a level close to the hype he has received his entire career.
Pass Blocking Ranking: 3rd, Run Blocking Ranking: 11th, Penalties Ranking: 17th


https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/01/08/2014-pff-offensive-line-rankings/4/

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no there aren't. that's a ridiculous statement...

No not at all. :coffee:

hawaiiansteeler
07-15-2015, 03:51 PM
Pass Blocking Ranking: 3rd, Run Blocking Ranking: 11th, Penalties Ranking: 17th

Stud: You don’t often hear the name Kelvin Beachum mentioned, but the former seventh-round pick has developed into an excellent tackle, finishing fifth overall in our left tackle rankings.

Dud: How close are the Steelers to pulling the plug on the Mike Adams experiment? The backup lineman was forced into playing 372 snaps and garnered a team-worst -14.5 grade from them.

Breakdown: It’s taken some years but the Steelers have transformed from one of the worst lines in the league to one of the best. Young talent has come through and delivered, with Beachum, Marcus Gilbert and David DeCastro all grading positively. Special mention for Maurkice Pouncey who is finally playing up to a level close to the hype he has received his entire career.
Pass Blocking Ranking: 3rd, Run Blocking Ranking: 11th, Penalties Ranking: 17th

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/01/08/2014-pff-offensive-line-rankings/4/

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No not at all. :coffee:

and that's why Mike Adams is a backup and not a starter.

still doesn't mean you can find 20 guys on the waiver wire at any particular time that are better than Adams. if they were better, don't you think the Steelers would claim one of them and put them on the roster instead?

but hey, what do the Steelers know compared to a guy who watches NFL rewind?

Mojouw
07-15-2015, 03:52 PM
Mike Adams sucks. As someone who watches every Steeler play multiple times on NFL rewind, paying particular attention to each individual on the line on most every play, words don't adequately describe how consistently awful Adams was.He brings next to nothing to the team. There's 20 guys on the waiver wire at any particular time that could give you as much as he does. Seriously running plays he misses his block, passing plays he misses his block, but Ben steps around the guy and most don't notice. We have great skill players in Ben and LeVeon. I couldn't count how many times those two bailed Adams sorry ass out.

DHB is the only player on that list who has any value to this team. And even with him it's strictly as a special teams player.

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Are you kidding me? The last half of the season Gilbert might have been the most improved player on the team. Now I'm not saying he's some great shakes, but he was more than competent from the middle of the season on. The needle is still pointing up on Gilbert. I think he'll be a slightly above average starting right tackle in this league for the next few years.

And if Adams puts together his athletic ability and some consistent technique he could be a slightly above average right tackle as well. I mean if that is the standard, then it isn't like it is ALL that far away. Maybe about what a half dozen plays a game? I am by no means saying that Adams is any serious threat to challenge Gilbert for the job. It is also possible that if Gilbert can finally stay healthy he can make a quantum leap in his game and move well north of above average.

The point is I don't see Adams as a totally worthless player. This is a team that employed Tony Hills for a stretch. Need I remind anyone of Jonathan Martin? Or the dozens of other dirtballs that backed up those two underachievers. To say that there are a dozen or so guys just sitting around that can come in and be better than Adams is patently ridiculous. The Steelers used to consistently employ guys like that in their seemingly endless quest to improve along the line. Remember how bad they were?

zulater
07-15-2015, 03:57 PM
Let me finish with this. If the Mike Adams of the past two seasons shows up to training camp I hope and predict he'll be cut. He has zero value. In games where the Steelers were forced to play him at right tackle any success they had was despite him, not derivative of him in any way.

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and that's why Mike Adams is a backup and not a starter.

still doesn't mean you can find 20 guys on the waiver wire at any particular time that are better than Adams. if they were better, don't you think the Steelers would claim one of them and put them on the roster instead?

but hey, what do the Steelers know compared to a guy who watches NFL rewind?

The only reason Adams has a job is because they invested a 2nd round draft pick on him.

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My guess is you loved Ziggy Hood too Hawaii. His staying on the roster two seasons too many was based on his talent or draft status big guy?

Mojouw
07-15-2015, 04:06 PM
Let me finish with this. If the Mike Adams of the past two seasons shows up to training camp I hope and predict he'll be cut. He has zero value. In games where the Steelers were forced to play him at right tackle any success they had was despite him, not derivative of him in any way.

I hope they cut him too - assuming they can find a more competent replacement.

Let me put it this way. I currently drive a 17 year old car with north of 180,000 miles on it because I am bad at career choices. This everlasting gobstopper of a hunk of metal is constantly threatening to up and die on me. Costs more and more in maintenance every year, blah, blah, blah. My point, you ask? It is this, as much as I know it is a bad car and as much as I know it is not the best thing to rely on for transportation, I can't identify anything better that my non-existent discretionary income will allow for.

That car is Mike Adams. You know it isn't the best idea (hence the presence of that large former Army Ranger on the roster) but you look around at the other options (waiver wire, UDFA) that you can afford and you realize that Mike Adams is better than the alternatives.

In general I think the Steelers are well aware that their reserve offensive lineman were/are not very good (Yes, even beloved Cody Wallace). That is likely why they damned near carpet bombed the position group in the off-season. How many interior lineman did they offer contracts to - it seemed like about 75 or so. Interestingly none of those large gentlemen are slated to play tackle in the NFL. Why? because "barely competent" or even "totally not a dumpster fire" NFL tackles are about as hard to find as hot girls w/out any crazy in them.

Point is - be very careful what you wish for. Adams's replacement could be the next Trai Essex or Jermaine Stephens.

Craic
07-15-2015, 04:38 PM
The problem with Mike Adams is that on a scale of 1-5 for run blocking, Adams, at any time, will play between a 4 and 5. He is a good run-blocker and fifty years ago, would have been a stalwart tackle on any team in the NFL. I don't think I've seen but one or two mistakes from him in at any time as a run blocker. But, as a pass blocker at left tackle, he will play between a 1 and 2.5. At right tackle, he'll play between a 2 and 4. That type of drop-off is unacceptable in today's NFL between run and pass blocking, and I say that as a big Mike Adams fan ever since I watched him vastly improve the Steelers's run game for a few games (to the right, at least) when he came in at RT (first time he played there).

I keep hoping he'll prove himself in the pass game, but every time they put him at RT, he just can't figure out how to properly do it. I'd like to see him get another year with Munchak to see if he can finally make the adjustments (it'd be only his second year with a good NFL coach at that position), so I'm not in favor of cutting him, yet. But if there's no improvement through training camp, he becomes the bubble-boy and is gone if we need to bring in any other players due to injury outside the O line.

hawaiiansteeler
07-15-2015, 04:43 PM
My guess is you loved Ziggy Hood too Hawaii.

no, i didn't. you're wrong as usual.

I always thought Ziggy was miscast in our 3-4 defensive scheme...

Mojouw
07-15-2015, 04:50 PM
Okay. Okay. Let us play a few things out here.

So Mike Adams has a mediocre to decent camp. Figure he sticks on the roster as the 3rd tackle and the Steelers re-assess things when his contract comes up.

Adams has a poor camp. Steelers message boards light up in glee. "See, I told you he stinks" - everyone posts. Steelers cut Adams. Who is the swing tackle?

Also what defines a "good" or "bad" camp for Adams? Like Craic said, Adams can be a beast in the run game. So is stopping falling on his butt in the pass game enough? If it isn't, what is and who plays swing tackle?

We can debate Adams all day, but no one really wants to identify who out there is better other than some Platonic ideal of a back-up tackle.

SteelerFanInStl
07-15-2015, 04:52 PM
Vrabel had very few chances to prove his worth; Adams has had endless chances and sucks. Vrabel also wasn't used right. Cowher F'd that up bad. Belichick coaches him and he turns into a star. Also, Vrabel was known as a man's man who didn't kiss up to anyone. With LeBeau here, that didn't cut it. You have to virtually worship Dick to see the field.

Not that there's anything wrong with that... :willy: :bananalama:

hawaiiansteeler
07-15-2015, 05:10 PM
We can debate Adams all day, but no one really wants to identify who out there is better other than some Platonic ideal of a back-up tackle.

haven't you heard? :noidea:

there's always 20 guys available on the waiver wire better than Mike Adams :jerkit:

TeeTee
07-15-2015, 07:05 PM
haven't you heard? :noidea:

there's always 20 guys available on the waiver wire better than Mike Adams :jerkit:

Beachum was never considered to have a chance to be better than Adams, and he is 10 times better.

zulater
07-15-2015, 10:21 PM
I just got home from New York, and haven't bothered to look at the most recent responses in this thread, nor do I plan to tonight. Let me just clarify a few of my own previous remarks.

20 guys on the waiver wire was a throwaway line. I was being flippant. Wasn't really expecting anyone to take it literally. :doh: Didn't think it needed to be clarified. That said I do believe there are players available via a waiver wire pickup at just about any time that would do no worse than Adams. Remember a couple seasons ago when the Steelers basically lost their season by losing a home game to a lousy Charger team. That Charger team employed a make shift line that day made up of two or three players they picked up from the waiver wire within the previous two weeks. So mediocre talent is usually out there. And Adams is most certainly mediocre at best.

Now as far as Adams place on the roster. Find where I said he shouldn't have been on the roster last year. You can't because I never said it. By all means he should have been on the team last year. Coming off a season where he was healing from stab wounds, as a second round pick who had shown some prior flashes, yes it was understandable why he was on the roster. Sometimes it takes a few seasons for the light to go on with some of these guys. Keenan Lewis and Jason Worlidis are two examples that come to mind. The first couple years those guys showed little indication that they could contribute to the team in any sense, let alone become valuable starters.
So yes by all means I endorsed his being on the roster in 2014. But not this year. Unless he comes to camp a different player he should not be on this team's final roster imo. His punch is pathetic. His footwork is worse. And half the time he looks as if he's running a different play than the rest of the line. Unless there's significant improvement in all aspects of his game he should be cut. His job should not be saved any more based on his original draft position. Find someone with an upside. He doesn't seem to have one.

Ok that's all I've got to say on it.

zulater
07-15-2015, 10:30 PM
I hope they cut him too - assuming they can find a more competent replacement.

Let me put it this way. I currently drive a 17 year old car with north of 180,000 miles on it because I am bad at career choices. This everlasting gobstopper of a hunk of metal is constantly threatening to up and die on me. Costs more and more in maintenance every year, blah, blah, blah. My point, you ask? It is this, as much as I know it is a bad car and as much as I know it is not the best thing to rely on for transportation, I can't identify anything better that my non-existent discretionary income will allow for.

That car is Mike Adams. You know it isn't the best idea (hence the presence of that large former Army Ranger on the roster) but you look around at the other options (waiver wire, UDFA) that you can afford and you realize that Mike Adams is better than the alternatives.

In general I think the Steelers are well aware that their reserve offensive lineman were/are not very good (Yes, even beloved Cody Wallace). That is likely why they damned near carpet bombed the position group in the off-season. How many interior lineman did they offer contracts to - it seemed like about 75 or so. Interestingly none of those large gentlemen are slated to play tackle in the NFL. Why? because "barely competent" or even "totally not a dumpster fire" NFL tackles are about as hard to find as hot girls w/out any crazy in them.

Point is - be very careful what you wish for. Adams's replacement could be the next Trai Essex or Jermaine Stephens.

Trai was better, Stephens wasn't.

My opinion is the only reason Adams was on the roster last year was because of his draft status. I think his play was so poor last season that it wont be hard to upgrade our third tackle position.


Again Adams was rightfully given the chance to prove he wasn't overdrafted. But he fell well short and unless he comes back a new player it's time to pull the plug and find someone who can play. In my opinion you have to have a third tackle who can play better than Adams has shown himself capable of to date.

teegre
07-16-2015, 08:13 AM
Vrabel had very few chances to prove his worth; Adams has had endless chances and sucks. Vrabel also wasn't used right. Cowher F'd that up bad. Belichick coaches him and he turns into a star. Also, Vrabel was known as a man's man who didn't kiss up to anyone. With LeBeau here, that didn't cut it. You have to virtually worship Dick to see the field.

Adams has improved every season... especially this past one (under Munchak). He has poor technique (e.g. he leans to much into the defender), but his problems are coachable.

teegre
07-16-2015, 08:53 AM
There are a million people in this thread guilty of hyperbole.


Joking aside, it seems that Mike Adams is a black or white issue. Because he's not as good as Marvel Smith, he's immediately dropped down to Jamain Stephens status (the worst lineman ever drafted early by the Steelers).

My point: there is a grey area.

Mojouw
07-16-2015, 09:17 AM
Trai was better, Stephens wasn't.

My opinion is the only reason Adams was on the roster last year was because of his draft status. I think his play was so poor last season that it wont be hard to upgrade our third tackle position.


Again Adams was rightfully given the chance to prove he wasn't overdrafted. But he fell well short and unless he comes back a new player it's time to pull the plug and find someone who can play. In my opinion you have to have a third tackle who can play better than Adams has shown himself capable of to date.

With who? Who is this magical unicorn of a player who is currently sitting at home ready to play 3rd tackle for a playoff caliber NFL team?

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/ufa/tackle/available/

That's the list. I see three names that have put significantly better tape down in the NFL than Adams - Jake Long, Sam Baker, and Anthony Collins. None of those three is going to sign to come to a camp and compete to play RT, let alone 3rd/swing tackle. So that leaves the "field" on that list. Not really interested there.

So now you can take a look at rookies and undrafted free agents. Which the Steelers have - as I mentioned earlier they signed a bunch of large young guys that will play somewhere along the o-line. Now if one of those guys is better than Adams - then cut him.

But cutting him just to cut him because he is a frustrating player? You have to have an alternative identified and in place. It is the same reason that Landry Jones and Cam Thomas are still on the roster.

Count Steeler
07-16-2015, 09:29 AM
Didn't Ramon Foster play some at RT? I wouldn't mind to see him as a backup and upgrade the LG position.

Mojouw
07-16-2015, 09:54 AM
Didn't Ramon Foster play some at RT? I wouldn't mind to see him as a backup and upgrade the LG position.

So if he isn't good enough to start at guard, how is he going to be competent as a tackle?

But Foster was a tackle before the Steelers kicked him inside.

Count Steeler
07-16-2015, 12:32 PM
So if he isn't good enough to start at guard, how is he going to be competent as a tackle?

But Foster was a tackle before the Steelers kicked him inside.

I think he would be versatile enough to cover Guard and Tackle. We are talking about back up, right? Why not slide him to back up Tackle and Guard, get rid of Adams, upgrade the LG position? Probably can't do it at this point, unless that OL they picked up late in the draft performs beyond expectations.

Also, if Villenueva shows any promise, I would keep him to back up at RT over Adams.

steelreserve
07-16-2015, 12:32 PM
There is no replacement for Adams this season at a comparable price. The time to make that move has passed. The time to do it will be next offseason, and we may well do that.

Especially because his price will be likely to go up, even though he's only OK. An average tackle probably costs you $4-5M in free agency, and since the stats say he's average, some other team will see it that way, or they'll pay for youth and potential thinking that they can coach him up. Either way this is probably his last season with us.

But for now, he's the backup and we might as well get used to it. We could do a lot worse.

86WARD
07-16-2015, 01:17 PM
Vrabel had very few chances to prove his worth; Adams has had endless chances and sucks. Vrabel also wasn't used right. Cowher F'd that up bad. Belichick coaches him and he turns into a star. Also, Vrabel was known as a man's man who didn't kiss up to anyone. With LeBeau here, that didn't cut it. You have to virtually worship Dick to see the field.

I think LeBeau was in Cincinnati while Vrabel was in Pittsburgh.

TeeTee
07-16-2015, 03:08 PM
There are a million people in this thread guilty of hyperbole.


Joking aside, it seems that Mike Adams is a black or white issue. Because he's not as good as Marvel Smith, he's immediately dropped down to Jamain Stephens status (the worst lineman ever drafted early by the Steelers).

My point: there is a grey area.

Of course there is a gray area usually, but in this case, it isn't very gray. He _IS_ about as bad as Jermain. It's not as if he is in between great and crappy; he is far closer to crappy than in the middle. Adams fails is every way possible: He can be bull rushed like he is Dri Archer (170 lbs), he can be beat on the outside (feet are too slow) and he is prone to holding (because he will otherwise be beat because he is terrible). But guess what? He grew up a Steeler fan so he gets unlimited chances.

- - - Updated - - -


I think LeBeau was in Cincinnati while Vrabel was in Pittsburgh.

Maybe he didn't kiss up to Cowher then. That was also a known trend.

Mojouw
07-16-2015, 03:32 PM
Of course there is a gray area usually, but in this case, it isn't very gray. He _IS_ about as bad as Jermain. It's not as if he is in between great and crappy; he is far closer to crappy than in the middle. Adams fails is every way possible: He can be bull rushed like he is Dri Archer (170 lbs), he can be beat on the outside (feet are too slow) and he is prone to holding (because he will otherwise be beat because he is terrible). But guess what? He grew up a Steeler fan so he gets unlimited chances.

- - - Updated - - -



Maybe he didn't kiss up to Cowher then. That was also a known trend.

Yes. A professional sports franchise has implemented a philosophy that includes giving high draft picks and fans of the team unlimited chances to succeed. Just think about that a moment. That means the owner, the head coach, the GM, the cap guy, the position coaches, the individual coordinators, and the scouting staff all would have to agree to implement a system that goes against their own interests. C'mon, you had to know that was ridiculous when you typed it.

I will grant you that the higher your draft status, the more "chances" you get to stick around the roster. Fair enough. Players were drafted that high based on some level of baseline ability/physical trait. Steelers coaches would not be the first group to think they can be the ones to "unlock latent potential".

Mike Adams is not worse than Jermain Stephens. He may not be that great, but he can at least walk upright and make it from the huddle to his position without committing a holding penalty or false starting. Seriously, I do not think Mike Adams is all that good, but I think a bit of logic and reason is called for. He is better than the overwhelming majority of veterans on the waiver wire (@ least currently) if for no other reason than that he knows the system. If Villenueva or another play either in camp with the Steelers or cut loose from some other team's camp is a better tackle, then cut him. But to expect that there is a realistic opportunity to make a major upgrade on Adams is kind of pie in the sky. There are not that many above average tackles to go around. Getting 2 is very difficult. Getting three is damn near impossible.

Vrabel was a Steeler from 1997-2000. Lebeau left the Steelers from 1997-2003. From 1997-2000 Jason Gildon was in his prime for the Steelers and he was flanked by Lloyd in 1997, Carlos Emmons in 1998-99, and then Joey Porter in 2000. Can't imagine why Vrabel didn't start. He did play significant snaps on defense during all of those seasons - just couldn't get a starting spot. For what it was worth, Vrabel was the ultimate Cowher guy. I bet Bill loved that scrappy, high motor, do anything for the team SOB like he was his own son. Vrabel left Pittsburgh because another team came with an offer of more money and a chance to start. I wouldn't trade the early 2000's tandem of Gildon and Porter for any 5 of Vrabel's seasons.

86WARD
07-16-2015, 05:02 PM
Vrabel was a Steeler from 1997-2000. Lebeau left the Steelers from 1997-2003. From 1997-2000 Jason Gildon was in his prime for the Steelers and he was flanked by Lloyd in 1997, Carlos Emmons in 1998-99, and then Joey Porter in 2000. Can't imagine why Vrabel didn't start. He did play significant snaps on defense during all of those seasons - just couldn't get a starting spot. For what it was worth, Vrabel was the ultimate Cowher guy. I bet Bill loved that scrappy, high motor, do anything for the team SOB like he was his own son. Vrabel left Pittsburgh because another team came with an offer of more money and a chance to start. I wouldn't trade the early 2000's tandem of Gildon and Porter for any 5 of Vrabel's seasons.

This. It was well known that there just wasn't room on the roster for Vrabel...

SteelerFanInStl
07-16-2015, 05:31 PM
This. It was well known that there just wasn't room on the roster for Vrabel...

That seems to be what I remember.

zulater
07-16-2015, 06:29 PM
I think he would be versatile enough to cover Guard and Tackle. We are talking about back up, right? Why not slide him to back up Tackle and Guard, get rid of Adams, upgrade the LG position? Probably can't do it at this point, unless that OL they picked up late in the draft performs beyond expectations.

Also, if Villenueva shows any promise, I would keep him to back up at RT over Adams.


Hopefully that will be the case. Adams really was awful, and I think the Steelers know it as much or more than any of us. Again it was more than reasonable to give him a roster spot last year.There's a window you give to players to realize the potential you believe them to have. But that window is closing rapidly. Unless he shows marked improvement through camp and preseason it's time to give someone else an opportunity to grow into the 3rd tackle spot.

hawaiiansteeler
07-17-2015, 07:20 PM
2015 NFL Projected Final Cuts: AFC

Pittsburgh Steelers

LB Sean Spence
S Mike Mitchell
S Will Allen
QB Bruce Gradkowkski
WR Darrius Heyward-Bey

Summary: Spence hasn't done anything since being drafted out of Miami, and he won't play over Lawrence Timmons or Ryan Shazier. Pittsburgh has other inexpensive veterans who offer more experience as backups. Mike Mitchell was a disappointment in his first year with the Steelers after getting some money in free agency from Pittsburgh. After drafting and signing some young players, the organization could cut him or Will Allen.

Bruce Gradkowski is fighting Tajh Boyd, among other young quarterbacks, for a roster spot, but Gradkowski is 32 and offers zero upside. At receiver, the Steelers are pretty loaded, yet they still took one in the third round with Sammie Coates. Heyward-Bey could have a hard time sticking around instead of younger talent.

Read more at: http://walterfootball.com/finalcuts2015_afc.php#uSdjwMihmUrLuOPR.99

86WARD
07-17-2015, 08:31 PM
I'd flip my shit if they cut Gradkowski and kept Boyd and Jones. So what's the answer at safety if Mitchell and Allen are cut?

Mojouw
07-17-2015, 08:36 PM
I'd flip my shit if they cut Gradkowski and kept Boyd and Jones. So what's the answer at safety if Mitchell and Allen are cut?

Holliman and Grant? That would be 2 rookies - and one a converted corner.

Man, sometimes Walter Football has some decent stuff -- other times they are totally out to lunch.

hawaiiansteeler
07-17-2015, 08:40 PM
Holliman and Grant? That would be 2 rookies - and one a converted corner.

Man, sometimes Walter Football has some decent stuff -- other times they are totally out to lunch.

Walterfootball.com Projects Some Interesting Final Cuts for the Steelers

I awoke this morning to a link from fellow SCB writer Chris projecting end-of-Training Camp cuts for all 32 teams from walterfootball.com. As I scrolled through the page, I couldn’t help but notice the big names they had potentially getting released from across the league.

I find walterfootball.com to be a solid source of information and they do a great job with many facets of the NFL but as always, I take all sites with a grain of salt because there are always things to disagree with. Regardless, I found this intriguing especially in regards to the Steelers.

Charlie Campbell, who you can follow @draftcampbell on Twitter, is projecting that Bruce Gradkowski, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Mike Mitchell, Will Allen and Sean Spence will all be looking for work elsewhere prior to the start of the regular season.

The two I can absolutely agree with are Will Allen and DHB. The one I can buy is Sean Spence because of the depth at the inside backer position, but I have an extremely hard time buying Mitchell and Gradkowski being cut.

Let me start there first. Campbell cites the presence of Tajh Boyd as a reason that Gradkowski could be released and he also says that at 32 years old, Gradkowski offers “zero upside.” While that is certainly true as a starter, I couldn’t disagree more about his status as a back-up.

Give me Bruce Gradkowski a million times over Boyd if either were forced into action. Experience and knowledge are Gradkowski’s friends and that’s who I’m riding with at that spot.

As for Mike Mitchell, there were certainly man of us who were less than pleased with his performance last season after signing a free agent deal. We later learned he was dealing with injuries throughout the entire season but that excuse wont fly in 2015.

In order for both Mitchell and Allen (who I do believe will be released) to be cut, then that means Rob Golden, Alden Darby and rookie Gerod Holliman will have stepped up among others. Not sure we’ve seen enough for this to happen yet.

Spence is an emotional cut after all he’s been through but at the end of the day football is a business and the possibility does exist for his departure.

Lastly is DHB who is an excellent special teams player and a good veteran presence. Still, is that important enough to keep him around as a fifth receiver instead of say… C.J. Goodwin? Only time and one more camp will tell.

to read rest of article:

http://steelcityblitz.com/2015/07/09/walterfootball-com-projects-some-interesting-final-cuts-for-the-steelers/

86WARD
07-17-2015, 08:40 PM
Holliman and Grant? That would be 2 rookies - and one a converted corner.

Man, sometimes Walter Football has some decent stuff -- other times they are totally out to lunch.

Yep...I see that being a potential disaster...

st33lersguy
07-17-2015, 08:48 PM
Agreed

teegre
07-18-2015, 09:47 AM
Of course there is a gray area usually, but in this case, it isn't very gray. He _IS_ about as bad as Jermain. It's not as if he is in between great and crappy; he is far closer to crappy than in the middle. Adams fails is every way possible: He can be bull rushed like he is Dri Archer (170 lbs), he can be beat on the outside (feet are too slow) and he is prone to holding (because he will otherwise be beat because he is terrible). But guess what? He grew up a Steeler fan so he gets unlimited chances.


I completely disagree that he's as bad as Jamain Stephens. But, let's assume (to move on to a different point) that he was indeed that bad for three seasons...

I see potential/flashes in Mike Adams. Whereas, I never saw anything in Jamain Stephens.

I still say that Adams' problems are correctable with coaching. I also feel that he will goes elsewhere, and will be a very good player for someone else.

But, I admit: I'm pretty much alone in my affinity for Adams.

LLT
07-18-2015, 10:11 AM
And if Adams puts together his athletic ability and some consistent technique he could be a slightly above average right tackle as well. I mean if that is the standard, then it isn't like it is ALL that far away. Maybe about what a half dozen plays a game? I am by no means saying that Adams is any serious threat to challenge Gilbert for the job. It is also possible that if Gilbert can finally stay healthy he can make a quantum leap in his game and move well north of above average.

The point is I don't see Adams as a totally worthless player. This is a team that employed Tony Hills for a stretch. Need I remind anyone of Jonathan Martin? Or the dozens of other dirtballs that backed up those two underachievers. To say that there are a dozen or so guys just sitting around that can come in and be better than Adams is patently ridiculous. The Steelers used to consistently employ guys like that in their seemingly endless quest to improve along the line. Remember how bad they were?

Totally agree with this. Adams has had some Terrible games in the past...but he appears to be on a upward trajectory. he is worth a backup slot on the line.

Chidi29
07-18-2015, 11:13 AM
Maybe the biggest problem with Adams (and there are a lot). He's really only a right tackle. Sure, he could play on the left side in theory, but he'd get destroyed there. And the Steelers demand their backup lineman to be versatile. Adams is the exception.

hawaiiansteeler
07-18-2015, 07:02 PM
Maybe the biggest problem with Adams (and there are a lot). He's really only a right tackle. Sure, he could play on the left side in theory, but he'd get destroyed there. And the Steelers demand their backup lineman to be versatile. Adams is the exception.

don't the Steelers also like to use Adams as an additional TE in short-yardage situations?

Chidi29
07-19-2015, 08:57 AM
don't the Steelers also like to use Adams as an additional TE in short-yardage situations?

That's just a way to (barely) get him involved in the offense and get something out of him. With Spaeth/Johnson/James, Adams really isn't going to see much work there.

zulater
07-19-2015, 10:11 AM
If 2014 Mike Adams shows up I don't think he makes the roster. I think his learning curve is over. Just my opinion.

hawaiiansteeler
07-19-2015, 07:49 PM
If 2014 Mike Adams shows up I don't think he makes the roster. I think his learning curve is over. Just my opinion.

Jim Wexell disagrees:

OFFENSIVE LINE -- Kelvin Beachum, Ramon Foster, Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro, Marcus Gilbert, Cody Wallace and Mike Adams are locks, in my humble opinion. That leaves one or two spots for Chris Hubbard, Alejandro Villanueva and undrafted rookie C/Gs B.J. Finney and Miles Dieffenbach. I'm leaving Reese Dismukes out of the race until the undrafted rookie center shows he can play guard. Dismukes and undrafted rookie T/G Kevin Whimpey should initially be viewed as candidates for the practice squad. Mitchell Van Dyk, who spent last training camp as a rookie seventh-rounder with Rams, has an outside chance at tackle.

http://www.scout.com/nfl/steelers/story/1564753-on-the-brink

zulater
07-19-2015, 09:17 PM
Jim Wexell disagrees:

OFFENSIVE LINE -- Kelvin Beachum, Ramon Foster, Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro, Marcus Gilbert, Cody Wallace and Mike Adams are locks, in my humble opinion. That leaves one or two spots for Chris Hubbard, Alejandro Villanueva and undrafted rookie C/Gs B.J. Finney and Miles Dieffenbach. I'm leaving Reese Dismukes out of the race until the undrafted rookie center shows he can play guard. Dismukes and undrafted rookie T/G Kevin Whimpey should initially be viewed as candidates for the practice squad. Mitchell Van Dyk, who spent last training camp as a rookie seventh-rounder with Rams, has an outside chance at tackle.

http://www.scout.com/nfl/steelers/story/1564753-on-the-brink

Time will tell wont it. I like Wexall but he's been known to be wrong a few times, just like any of us can be.If Adams is on the final roster it wont be a reason to celebrate, it will just mean we have no real depth at OT

Mojouw
07-20-2015, 10:17 AM
Surprised that since many are against Adams as "Depth" - why the love for Cody Wallace? Yeah he tries hard and punches guys in the stink, but he really isn't that good.

I disagree with Wexell, and don't think anyone after the starting 5 is a "lock" for the roster. The Steelers are clearly hoping "iron sharpens iron" and are looking for a serious competition at all the reserve o-line spots.

hawaiiansteeler
07-21-2015, 01:07 PM
Ray Fittipaldo's Steelers chat transcript: 7.20.15

Poll Question: Of all the veterans on the "bubble" entering training camp, which is most likely to get cut? Cam Thomas (64%) Robert Golden (7%) Cody Wallace (0%) Darrius Heyward-Bey (0%) Landry Jones (29%)

steelmann58: Ray how many OL do they keep and will they keep more than one Backup Tackle?

Ray Fittipaldo: Last year they kept one more than usual at Munchak's request. Hubbard was the extra player -- a guard. I'm not sure that happens this year especially since this teams needs to upgrade its special teams... As for the extra tackle, I don't think they'll keep more than one reserve tackle and that figures to be Mike Adams.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2015/07/20/Ray-Fittipaldo-s-Steelers-chat-transcript-7-20-15/stories/201507200122

Chidi29
07-21-2015, 03:51 PM
Ray Fittipaldo's Steelers chat transcript: 7.20.15

Poll Question: Of all the veterans on the "bubble" entering training camp, which is most likely to get cut? Cam Thomas (64%) Robert Golden (7%) Cody Wallace (0%) Darrius Heyward-Bey (0%) Landry Jones (29%)

steelmann58: Ray how many OL do they keep and will they keep more than one Backup Tackle?

Ray Fittipaldo: Last year they kept one more than usual at Munchak's request. Hubbard was the extra player -- a guard. I'm not sure that happens this year especially since this teams needs to upgrade its special teams... As for the extra tackle, I don't think they'll keep more than one reserve tackle and that figures to be Mike Adams.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2015/07/20/Ray-Fittipaldo-s-Steelers-chat-transcript-7-20-15/stories/201507200122

I wish Ray would've expanded on why/where it needs to upgrade its ST at. Hate those throwaway comments that might mean nothing or might mean something. But they never make it clear.

KeiselPower99
07-23-2015, 05:36 PM
Ill keep Adams. I want Thomas gone. He was terrible last year. I think 2 out these 4 Geathers, Kruger, Conrath and Walton should be able to outplay him, hell I bet a ! armed Keisel could outplay him with his good arm behind his back.

zulater
07-23-2015, 07:58 PM
Ill keep Adams. I want Thomas gone. He was terrible last year. I think 2 out these 4 Geathers, Kruger, Conrath and Walton should be able to outplay him, hell I bet a ! armed Keisel could outplay him with his good arm behind his back.

I don't know anyone who wants to see Cam Thomas back.

steelreserve
07-23-2015, 08:06 PM
I don't know anyone who wants to see Cam Thomas back.


Except for all the ladies ... wait, no.