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TeeTee
05-22-2015, 04:43 PM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2458872-every-nfl-teams-best-worst-offseason-move/page/26

Agree best one was in re-signing Ben.

But the "worst" was going in another direction than LeBeau? That's the worst, but then they went on to admit we were 18th in limiting teams to yards and were 6th from the bottom in stopping the pass.

For whatever reason, LeBeau was not getting it done and Butler couldn't wait any longer to get a DC gig. He waited for many years.

Had the Steelers went with a "business as usual" approach, and kept Dick, who would have, no doubt, wanted to keep Polamalu, I'd considered boycotting and not really following them until they work up.

I think it was overdue to make those moves. By the way, Rooneys were inviting Dick back, but NOT as DC. That is why they parted ways, and I applaud the Rooneys for realizing the appropriate moves to make.

SteelerFanInStl
05-22-2015, 06:30 PM
It was time for the Steelers to move on from LeBeau. I love the guy as much as anyone but it was time.

I don't know if giving that position to Butler was the right move though. I would have preferred to go outside the organization but Butler certainly has waited long enough for his chance. We'll see how it works out.

GBMelBlount
05-22-2015, 07:17 PM
I don't know if giving that position to Butler was the right move though. I would have preferred to go outside the organization but Butler certainly has waited long enough for his chance. We'll see how it works out.




Butler may just be at the right place at the right time and get some props as this could be a season of transformation for this young defense.




http://rlv.zcache.com/the_butler_did_it_jimmy_butler_shirt_t_shirts-r7c882ca7de774772a677221fc0710324_va6lr_512.jpg

Count Steeler
05-22-2015, 09:56 PM
All depends if Landry Jones is still on the roster come the start of the season.

Sorry LeBeau, but it was time.

Chidi29
05-23-2015, 11:27 AM
Not like the Steelers had many moves to choose from to be considered the worst.

86WARD
05-23-2015, 12:03 PM
Keeping Landry Jones (even as a camp arm) is the worst non-move?

hawaiiansteeler
05-23-2015, 12:44 PM
Not like the Steelers had many moves to choose from to be considered the worst.

I initially thought letting Brice McCain leave to Miami in free agency instead of retaining him for what seemed like a very reasonable contract was a bad move.

however, McCain is an average CB at best and I'm happy about the Steelers drafting Golson and Grant so it may not have been such a bad move after all...

Mojouw
05-23-2015, 01:04 PM
Interesting Landry Jones fact, I read a comparison of his and Gradkowski's preseason stats from last year (can't find the link now) but they are basically identical except for one key difference - sacks. Jones took about a half dozen of them. So basically, what we can infer from that, is that Jones does not "fee/sense" pressure and/or doesn't go through his progressions quickly enough.

Basically, Jones has remained what he was when the Steelers drafted him. A big guy with a nice arm from a gimmicky college offense. Shame he hasn't seemed to progress much, as he has all the physical ability in the world to play the position.

TeeTee
05-23-2015, 02:00 PM
Not like the Steelers had many moves to choose from to be considered the worst.

Well, not that I think any particular move was horrible, but moving on from Dick was no way the worst move. I would argue it was one of their best moves. I mean, not signing McCain back would be a much more appropriate "worst move" than moving on from Dick. Allowing Worilds to retire could be claimed (I don't think he's a big loss.) One could argue that not adding a NT could be the worst. (I feel this entire D is based on superior NT play and between the guys we got, I don't see it. The last two times out D dropped was right after Steed left and then again after Hampton.) Almost ANY moves should be considered less damaging than moving on from LeBeau.

Chidi29
05-23-2015, 09:02 PM
Well, not that I think any particular move was horrible, but moving on from Dick was no way the worst move. I would argue it was one of their best moves. I mean, not signing McCain back would be a much more appropriate "worst move" than moving on from Dick. Allowing Worilds to retire could be claimed (I don't think he's a big loss.) One could argue that not adding a NT could be the worst. (I feel this entire D is based on superior NT play and between the guys we got, I don't see it. The last two times out D dropped was right after Steed left and then again after Hampton.) Almost ANY moves should be considered less damaging than moving on from LeBeau.

Well they did offer a contract to McCain. They didn't willingly let him go like LeBeau.

Were they supposed to handcuff Worilds to the doors of Heinz Field? The dude retired. Can't control that.

I'm just saying it's not like the Steelers are ever very active in the offseason. And there aren't a whole lot to choose from. I think your post illustrates my point well.

86WARD
05-23-2015, 11:34 PM
I wouldn't claim losing Worilds a big loss at all...I'd actually call it a great move. He wasn't good and he made waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much money.

steelreserve
05-24-2015, 03:14 AM
Keeping Cam Thomas on the roster for $2 million a year, while Terrance Knighton signed as a free agent for only $4 million. Not only did we miss a chance at a big upgrade to IMO our biggest weakness after CB, we missed a chance to do it at almost no cost. There were other decent players out there too if we didn't get Knighton. Instead we're left with question marks.

Other than that, I really can't complain too much. The draft had me ready to tear my hair out at times as we were going through it, but in the end we got almost exactly what we needed. No important players got away; other than Keisel and (sort of) McCain, all the ones gone were dead weight. LeBeau and Polamalu were the big-name losses, but we could all see it was time for both.

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I wouldn't claim losing Worilds a big loss at all...I'd actually call it a great move. He wasn't good and he made waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much money.


You're not kidding. Outside of the draft, this was probably the #1 best roster transaction that happened for us all offseason.

TeeTee
05-24-2015, 02:10 PM
Interesting Landry Jones fact, I read a comparison of his and Gradkowski's preseason stats from last year (can't find the link now) but they are basically identical except for one key difference - sacks. Jones took about a half dozen of them. So basically, what we can infer from that, is that Jones does not "fee/sense" pressure and/or doesn't go through his progressions quickly enough.

Basically, Jones has remained what he was when the Steelers drafted him. A big guy with a nice arm from a gimmicky college offense. Shame he hasn't seemed to progress much, as he has all the physical ability in the world to play the position.

Well, he does have one, other MAJOR deficiency: lack of accuracy. That's a deal breaker; you can't be an NFL QB and lack accuracy. Jones himself admitted last preseason that he need to throw more accurately. Well, if you in your 2nd year as a pro, and had all those other years in college and HS and you still can't throw the ball with accuracy, I doubt in year 3 of the NFL, you all of a sudden find accuracy. He stinks. He isn't repairable. If he fills a roster spot, someone is a huge fool.

TeeTee
05-24-2015, 02:15 PM
I wouldn't claim losing Worilds a big loss at all...I'd actually call it a great move. He wasn't good and he made waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much money.

I totally agree with you. I'd only want him back near league minimum and could be persuaded that even that wouldn't be wise. The only reason I brought him up was that it COULD be argued that even the loss of him was more of a blow than losing LeBeau. That's all I was saying. Our D will be improved THIS YEAR due to us going in a different direction. I believe that.

Mojouw
05-24-2015, 06:22 PM
Well, he does have one, other MAJOR deficiency: lack of accuracy. That's a deal breaker; you can't be an NFL QB and lack accuracy. Jones himself admitted last preseason that he need to throw more accurately. Well, if you in your 2nd year as a pro, and had all those other years in college and HS and you still can't throw the ball with accuracy, I doubt in year 3 of the NFL, you all of a sudden find accuracy. He stinks. He isn't repairable. If he fills a roster spot, someone is a huge fool.

I think Jones is basically a bust as a prospect as well. My only point was that his "accuracy" -- if based on completions and interceptions was identical to Gradkowski's in the last preseason. The only statistical difference between the two was the sacks. It makes me think that Jones' biggest problem is not with a lack of physical ability, it is between his ears. He came from one of those gimmicky one read pistol/shotgun spread offenses in college and has clearly struggled with the mental portions of playing from under center and in a far more complex pro scheme. If he looks no better this preseason, time to move on and roll the dice on a guy like Boyd.

86WARD
05-24-2015, 07:53 PM
Cam Thomas sticking is maybe worse than Landry Jones...

Count Steeler
05-25-2015, 04:19 PM
Cam Thomas sticking is maybe worse than Landry Jones...

I'm hoping they come to their senses through training camp.

86WARD
05-29-2015, 07:51 PM
I actually thought of the worst move. Keeping Danny Smith as the Special Teams coach, IMO, was by far the worst move. Worse than Archer, worse than Landry Jones...Smith was beyond terrible last year and really didn't get any better.

Chidi29
05-30-2015, 11:13 AM
I actually thought of the worst move. Keeping Danny Smith as the Special Teams coach, IMO, was by far the worst move. Worse than Archer, worse than Landry Jones...Smith was beyond terrible last year and really didn't get any better.

Woah...don't hear that one often. Care to expand?

86WARD
05-30-2015, 09:08 PM
Terrible returns. Undisciplined returns. Stupid penalties. Through the first five games of the season 25% of the teams drives started inside their own 20. 13% started inside their own 11. Yet Smith failed to make a change? The penalties were obscene...have been for the last few seasons. 27th in Kick Return Average, 29th in Punting, 11th in Punt Returns...of course due to Antonio Brown and Shaun Suisham was a bright spot...wasn't much better in 2013...

This coming season better be a make or break for Smith...IMO.

Chidi29
05-30-2015, 10:43 PM
Terrible returns. Undisciplined returns. Stupid penalties. Through the first five games of the season 25% of the teams drives started inside their own 20. 13% started inside their own 11. Yet Smith failed to make a change? The penalties were obscene...have been for the last few seasons. 27th in Kick Return Average, 29th in Punting, 11th in Punt Returns...of course due to Antonio Brown and Shaun Suisham was a bright spot...wasn't much better in 2013...

This coming season better be a make or break for Smith...IMO.

Penalties were ugly in the year but they went away as the season went on. That's attributed to good coaching and getting his guys to play cleaner.

The coverage units were spectacular and made up for the return unit. Steelers shut down some serious threats last year. Bottled up guys like Pacman Jones, De'Anthony Thomas, and Jacoby Jones in the playoff game.

From the little I've seen, I love his energy and passion for the game. Gets the most out of his guys.

86WARD
05-31-2015, 08:36 AM
The coverage units were good. Penalties were heavy early in the season, but they were pretty consistent all season...averaging 1.412 Special Teams penalties a game isn't good coaching in my book. They had 3 games with no special teams penalties, 6 games with multiple penalties...

In contrast, teams playing the Steelers committed 15 penalties on Special Teams...average of .882 per game.

Even if you take out the first 5 games (Steelers - 13; Opponents - 7) and the Steelers still average .917 per game versus their opponents .667 over the same games.

IMO, his coaching was awful over the season, sure the returns got better once Wheaton was in there but the penalties continued.

Shamarko Thomas' Unnecessary Roughness call in the Ravens playoff game gave the Ravens 15 yards to take them from their 22 to their 37. Ended that drive with a 52-Yard FG. Did it make or break that game? Not really...but it arguably gave the Ravens 3 points that wasn't necessary.

But the series of back-to-back offensive off-sides calls (one off-setting) in the Jacksonville game is inexcusable...poor coaching IMO when your players aren't disciplined enough to stay on-sides. SUre you can argue that it's earlier in the season, but then we're really just trying to justify it...

This season should be a make or break IMO...he's on borrowed time in my book.

Count Steeler
05-31-2015, 08:39 AM
DHB on the "hands" team.

86WARD
05-31-2015, 08:44 AM
DHB on the "hands" team.

lol. 'nuff said?

Chidi29
05-31-2015, 11:03 AM
The coverage units were good. Penalties were heavy early in the season, but they were pretty consistent all season...averaging 1.412 Special Teams penalties a game isn't good coaching in my book. They had 3 games with no special teams penalties, 6 games with multiple penalties...

In contrast, teams playing the Steelers committed 15 penalties on Special Teams...average of .882 per game.

Even if you take out the first 5 games (Steelers - 13; Opponents - 7) and the Steelers still average .917 per game versus their opponents .667 over the same games.

IMO, his coaching was awful over the season, sure the returns got better once Wheaton was in there but the penalties continued.

Shamarko Thomas' Unnecessary Roughness call in the Ravens playoff game gave the Ravens 15 yards to take them from their 22 to their 37. Ended that drive with a 52-Yard FG. Did it make or break that game? Not really...but it arguably gave the Ravens 3 points that wasn't necessary.

But the series of back-to-back offensive off-sides calls (one off-setting) in the Jacksonville game is inexcusable...poor coaching IMO when your players aren't disciplined enough to stay on-sides. SUre you can argue that it's earlier in the season, but then we're really just trying to justify it...

This season should be a make or break IMO...he's on borrowed time in my book.

Everything got better though is the point. That is what coaches are supposed to do.

Three penalties over the final six weeks of the season. After the ugly first six weeks of the year, only once did they have multiple penalties in a game. All clear signs of the unit adjusting because they knew they had to get better.

tube517
05-31-2015, 12:05 PM
Everything got better though is the point. That is what coaches are supposed to do.

Three penalties over the final six weeks of the season. After the ugly first six weeks of the year, only once did they have multiple penalties in a game. All clear signs of the unit adjusting because they knew they had to get better.



I propose you do a breakdown of Danny Smith's tenure for an SD article. (If you take requests :chuckle:)

I'm not a fan of his because I just don't see a year to year consistency from that unit, coverage wise. It would help if he could find the lost hybrid child of Ray Guy and Reggie Roby.

Chidi29
05-31-2015, 12:20 PM
I propose you do a breakdown of Danny Smith's tenure for an SD article. (If you take requests :chuckle:)

I'm not a fan of his because I just don't see a year to year consistency from that unit, coverage wise. It would help if he could find the lost hybrid child of Ray Guy and Reggie Roby.

I've done a little bit on some specifics of the unit. DHB's value to the team, poor blocking that hindered Archer. Latter just went up today.

I do find it very difficult, across the board, to evaluate coaches. Hard to evaluate personnel vs teaching. What Smith does, or doesn't do, is largely behind closed doors and we don't get to evaluate it.

Personnel is an issue though in some areas. Needing to find consistency at punter. Looking for a reliable return man. Those are things out of Smith's control.

And like I said, from the little I got to see at those 15 practices, he is as high-energy and enthusiastic dude as ANY coach on this team. And there's a lot of good ones. He brings it every day and that's what you need from your ST coach. Get guys excited about playing there. Letting them realize they matter. A lot of these guys didn't have to do it much in their career. They were starters in college. Great talents. Didn't have to take their lumps playing the wedge or acting as a jammer. Now they are at the bottom of the pile and have to realize their value and care about doing a great job.

tube517
05-31-2015, 12:29 PM
I've done a little bit on some specifics of the unit. DHB's value to the team, poor blocking that hindered Archer. Latter just went up today.

I do find it very difficult, across the board, to evaluate coaches. Hard to evaluate personnel vs teaching. What Smith does, or doesn't do, is largely behind closed doors and we don't get to evaluate it.

Personnel is an issue though in some areas. Needing to find consistency at punter. Looking for a reliable return man. Those are things out of Smith's control.

And like I said, from the little I got to see at those 15 practices, he is as high-energy and enthusiastic dude as ANY coach on this team. And there's a lot of good ones. He brings it every day and that's what you need from your ST coach. Get guys excited about playing there. Letting them realize they matter. A lot of these guys didn't have to do it much in their career. They were starters in college. Great talents. Didn't have to take their lumps playing the wedge or acting as a jammer. Now they are at the bottom of the pile and have to realize their value and care about doing a great job.


Well, if anyone can do it, you can, being a true student (yeah, I know you graduated! lol) of the game.

Great article on DHB, by the way.

Chidi29
05-31-2015, 12:36 PM
Well, if anyone can do it, you can, being a true student (yeah, I know you graduated! lol) of the game.

Great article on DHB, by the way.

Thank you tube. Totally didn't realize it but another writer just did a profile of Smith. Not X's and O's but nice to know his background.

hawaiiansteeler
05-31-2015, 02:21 PM
Terrible returns. Undisciplined returns. Stupid penalties. Through the first five games of the season 25% of the teams drives started inside their own 20. 13% started inside their own 11.


I remember actually cheering for touchbacks so we would at least get the ball out at the 20...

86WARD
05-31-2015, 02:33 PM
Everything got better though is the point. That is what coaches are supposed to do.

Three penalties over the final six weeks of the season. After the ugly first six weeks of the year, only once did they have multiple penalties in a game. All clear signs of the unit adjusting because they knew they had to get better.

You hope despite coaching, the unit gets better over time, but this unit was consistently throwing up a penalty a week and in the biggest game of the season they throw one up out of frustration. Sure they got better over time, but still, there was a lack of discipline in that part of the game and IMO it falls on Smith and it's been like that for the past three seasons no matter what the personnel.

That's great he's high energy...90% of the coaches in the league are...in my book, doesn't mean they are good coaches. Look at Bill Belichick and Andy Reid for example. Pretty good coaches...but I wouldn't put them at the top of the high energy category...

I think we'd just have to agree to disagree at this point. If I have time, I'll look deeper into it...hard to come by that lately though...lol.

TeeTee
05-31-2015, 03:03 PM
You hope despite coaching, the unit gets better over time, but this unit was consistently throwing up a penalty a week and in the biggest game of the season they throw one up out of frustration. Sure they got better over time, but still, there was a lack of discipline in that part of the game and IMO it falls on Smith and it's been like that for the past three seasons no matter what the personnel.

That's great he's high energy...90% of the coaches in the league are...in my book, doesn't mean they are good coaches. Look at Bill Belichick and Andy Reid for example. Pretty good coaches...but I wouldn't put them at the top of the high energy category...

I think we'd just have to agree to disagree at this point. If I have time, I'll look deeper into it...hard to come by that lately though...lol.

One of the least "high energy" coaches of all time was a pretty decent coach. I think his name was Chuck something or another.

Chidi29
05-31-2015, 03:07 PM
You hope despite coaching, the unit gets better over time, but this unit was consistently throwing up a penalty a week and in the biggest game of the season they throw one up out of frustration. Sure they got better over time, but still, there was a lack of discipline in that part of the game and IMO it falls on Smith and it's been like that for the past three seasons no matter what the personnel.

That's great he's high energy...90% of the coaches in the league are...in my book, doesn't mean they are good coaches. Look at Bill Belichick and Andy Reid for example. Pretty good coaches...but I wouldn't put them at the top of the high energy category...

I think we'd just have to agree to disagree at this point. If I have time, I'll look deeper into it...hard to come by that lately though...lol.

The units aren't going to magically get better unless they're coached, right? Otherwise, what exactly is the role of the coach and how are we supposed to judge it?

Three penalties in seven weeks? You're seriously not happy with that? Tough grader. And Shark's personal foul? What do you want Smith to do? Run out and drag the dude off the field? I hold the player accountable, not the coach.

And even if you want to blame Smith, we're cherry-picking instances. On the whole, every single unit improved during the year. Return unit's blocking got much, much better. Punt coverage was stellar. Kick coverage was amazing. Suisham was solid. AB did just fine.

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One of the least "high energy" coaches of all time was a pretty decent coach. I think his name was Chuck something or another.

High energy doesn't mean "good," of course. I didn't say there is a perfect translation.

But you're missing my point about Smith being the ST coach. You have to get those guys excited to play something they haven't done in quite some time, maybe have never done. The grunt work. ST stars are overlooked when they're good and yelled at when they screw up. It takes an especially infectious personality to get guys to buy into that role. To tell the star WR of his college team, "You're not doing that anymore. You're running 40 yards downfield to field to fling your body into the pile. Here's why you should be excited about that."

It's a different beast. And Smith, overall, does a fine job.

Chidi29
05-31-2015, 03:21 PM
And just to be clear, I've ragged on Smith before. I was VERY frustrated with all the early season penalties. And there were some problems that seemed to be on him. Some things that are important to focus on, that lead back to coaching.

The Texans' successful fake was on Smith. He didn't see the situation and prepare his team correctly. That goes on coaching. And I said as much as soon as it happened.

https://twitter.com/Alex_Kozora/status/524386183967952897

TeeTee
05-31-2015, 03:21 PM
The units aren't going to magically get better unless they're coached, right? Otherwise, what exactly is the role of the coach and how are we supposed to judge it?

Three penalties in seven weeks? You're seriously not happy with that? Tough grader. And Shark's personal foul? What do you want Smith to do? Run out and drag the dude off the field? I hold the player accountable, not the coach.

And even if you want to blame Smith, we're cherry-picking instances. On the whole, every single unit improved during the year. Return unit's blocking got much, much better. Punt coverage was stellar. Kick coverage was amazing. Suisham was solid. AB did just fine.

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High energy doesn't mean "good," of course. I didn't say there is a perfect translation.

But you're missing my point about Smith being the ST coach. You have to get those guys excited to play something they haven't done in quite some time, maybe have never done. The grunt work. ST stars are overlooked when they're good and yelled at when they screw up. It takes an especially infectious personality to get guys to buy into that role. To tell the star WR of his college team, "You're not doing that anymore. You're running 40 yards downfield to field to fling your body into the pile. Here's why you should be excited about that."

It's a different beast. And Smith, overall, does a fine job.

I am not saying he does a good job or not. I can't base it on anything but results. But if I am not a high draft pick and have to prove my value on ST to make the roster, I will play like a mad man on ST if that's what it takes. Anyone who doesn't feel the same way in that position can start selling insurance early.

86WARD
05-31-2015, 03:49 PM
The units aren't going to magically get better unless they're coached, right? Otherwise, what exactly is the role of the coach and how are we supposed to judge it?

Three penalties in seven weeks? You're seriously not happy with that? Tough grader. And Shark's personal foul? What do you want Smith to do? Run out and drag the dude off the field? I hold the player accountable, not the coach.

And even if you want to blame Smith, we're cherry-picking instances. On the whole, every single unit improved during the year. Return unit's blocking got much, much better. Punt coverage was stellar. Kick coverage was amazing. Suisham was solid. AB did just fine.


I have 5 in the last 7 and I'd be very happy with that...I'm sure there are a lot of teams worse than that...and great, we saw improvement...I expect that with any coach over time. I don't buy into the fact that he's that great a coach...similar terrible, inopportune penalties occurred in 2013. And to answer your quesion about Thomas...in that type of game, yeah...be a coach, grab the kid by the face mask, drag him off the field and sit him down for a few series. It's uncalled for in that type of game.

Chidi29
05-31-2015, 03:52 PM
I am not saying he does a good job or not. I can't base it on anything but results. But if I am not a high draft pick and have to prove my value on ST to make the roster, I will play like a mad man on ST if that's what it takes. Anyone who doesn't feel the same way in that position can start selling insurance early.

I just wanted to stress the importance of having a guy like that for that role.

I can't speak for what is' like, it may come as a shock that I have never been in the NFL (I'll let you all take a moment to collect yourselves) but for some of those guys, I bet it isn't an easy adjustment. And they need to be motivated a little bit more. Everyone, at any level, hopes and dreams to be the star WR or the shutdown CB. Not R4 on kick coverage or the right wing on field goal protection.

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I have 5 in the last 7 and I'd be very happy with that...I'm sure there are a lot of teams worse than that...and great, we saw improvement...I expect that with any coach over time. I don't buy into the fact that he's that great a coach...similar terrible, inopportune penalties occurred in 2013. And to answer your quesion about Thomas...in that type of game, yeah...be a coach, grab the kid by the face mask, drag him off the field and sit him down for a few series. It's uncalled for in that type of game.

Sorry, counted wrong. I meant three in the last six. Which is a number I'll take all the time, no questions asked. And two of those weren't even technical issues. They were two unsportsmanlike calls. That is on the player, not Smith, so blame them for not being able to stay smart. That isn't something you can teach in a drill like you can hand placement to avoid holding, lane control, etc. You can preach it, sure, but in the heat of the moment, it's up to the player to have a cool head.

86WARD
05-31-2015, 04:03 PM
and it's one of the responsibilities of the coach (both position and head) to make sure it doesn't happen...regardless of what the player feels in the heat of the moment. I can't take the accountability for the players actions on the field out of the hands of the coaches.

Chidi29
05-31-2015, 04:13 PM
and it's one of the responsibilities of the coach (both position and head) to make sure it doesn't happen...regardless of what the player feels in the heat of the moment. I can't take the accountability for the players actions on the field out of the hands of the coaches.

Those aren't things you can teach. Not something you practice. Outside of telling the guy, "Hey, don't be stupid" it's not like Smith can do much to prevent it.

86WARD
05-31-2015, 04:35 PM
I'd disagree.

Chidi29
05-31-2015, 04:55 PM
I'd disagree.

Why isn't it Carnell Lake's fault, too? You can bet Thomas spent more time with him than he did Smith.

Count Steeler
05-31-2015, 05:06 PM
Why isn't it Carnell Lake's fault, too? You can bet Thomas spent more time with him than he did Smith.

And ultimately, Tomlin. Last season was a very poor start, discipline wise. At least Tomlin took the step of having officials come to the practices and teach our guys what were penalties and what weren't. Just seems like something that should have been handled in training camp and not in the regular season. I believe we were near the top of the league in flags through our first 4 games.

86WARD
05-31-2015, 05:27 PM
Why isn't it Carnell Lake's fault, too? You can bet Thomas spent more time with him than he did Smith.

You can apply blame to Lake too...but it happened on Smith's "watch." Blame LeBeau as well...he's not around anymore.

Chidi29
05-31-2015, 05:54 PM
You can apply blame to Lake too...but it happened on Smith's "watch." Blame LeBeau as well...he's not around anymore.

I'm just asking what Smith is supposed to do to be proactive in that situation? Aside from telling him not to, which I'm sure is preached all the time.

And even so, it's clear the unit got a whole lot cleaner the last six weeks. There was improvement all around.

86WARD
05-31-2015, 07:56 PM
I'm just asking what Smith is supposed to do to be proactive in that situation? Aside from telling him not to, which I'm sure is preached all the time.

And even so, it's clear the unit got a whole lot cleaner the last six weeks. There was improvement all around.

Bench him for a few series? I don't have an answer...it is something that would have to be handled on a case by case basis...maybe they should take away the ping pong privileges, maybe they should sit him a few series, maybe he should do extra film study...I'm not sure...

It shouldn't take 11 games to straighten up the special teams...

TeeTee
05-31-2015, 10:14 PM
And ultimately, Tomlin. Last season was a very poor start, discipline wise. At least Tomlin took the step of having officials come to the practices and teach our guys what were penalties and what weren't. Just seems like something that should have been handled in training camp and not in the regular season. I believe we were near the top of the league in flags through our first 4 games.

Agree. On negative side, why the heck wasn't it covered better before the season started. On the positive side, at least he did get around to fixing it. Tomlin has a trend of being a late bloomer when it comes to having the team ready early.

Chidi29
06-01-2015, 11:39 AM
Bench him for a few series? I don't have an answer...it is something that would have to be handled on a case by case basis...maybe they should take away the ping pong privileges, maybe they should sit him a few series, maybe he should do extra film study...I'm not sure...

It shouldn't take 11 games to straighten up the special teams...

That isn't going to be proactive about it though. That's reacting to it. What is Smith supposed to teach for Thomas not to do dumb things? There's no practice time devoted to after the whistle conduct. You can lecture it and that's about it. Up to the player to stay calm and not hurt his team.

Remember the offense sputtered throughout the year, either. Doesn't mean Haley is on the chopping block.

Overall, we are looking way too much into just the penalty aspect of it. It's a discussion point, but it feels like the only thing we're even considering when evaluating Smith are penalties.

86WARD
06-01-2015, 01:58 PM
It's not just penalties though. Taking 11 games to improve the kicking game? Not really something I want to wait for again...considering that 2013 was very similar.

Chidi29
06-01-2015, 07:10 PM
It's not just penalties though. Taking 11 games to improve the kicking game? Not really something I want to wait for again...considering that 2013 was very similar.

Feels like all we've done is talk about the penalties. Hardly mentioned any other area. Lot more to it than that.

86WARD
06-01-2015, 07:30 PM
You got the obvious penalties, the terrible blocking, terrible decisions by Archer, terrible return average, the decisions in regards to Wing's punting...the fact it took 11 weeks to straighten most of this out. Which again...was all similar to 2013. The coverage units were good most of the time...Ross Ventrone was a stud on special teams IMO...someone that should have been on the unit all season. They wound up 15th in return yardage allowed on kick returns, 12th on punt returns. 27th in kick return average, 11th in punt return average. I'd like to see a little better results if Smith is such a good coach that the guys "love" to give their all for.

IMO, I don't like Smith and if any coach should've gone, IMO it should have been him...

Born2Steel
06-01-2015, 08:00 PM
I wouldn't claim losing Worilds a big loss at all...I'd actually call it a great move. He wasn't good and he made waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much money.

I agree he made too much money, the fact that he retired on what he made here proves that.

Chidi29
06-02-2015, 01:36 AM
You got the obvious penalties, the terrible blocking, terrible decisions by Archer, terrible return average, the decisions in regards to Wing's punting...the fact it took 11 weeks to straighten most of this out. Which again...was all similar to 2013. The coverage units were good most of the time...Ross Ventrone was a stud on special teams IMO...someone that should have been on the unit all season. They wound up 15th in return yardage allowed on kick returns, 12th on punt returns. 27th in kick return average, 11th in punt return average. I'd like to see a little better results if Smith is such a good coach that the guys "love" to give their all for.

IMO, I don't like Smith and if any coach should've gone, IMO it should have been him...

I'm just saying we've harped on the penalties far too much.

We're really debating coach vs personnel. It is a delicate argument to be had. Rookie returner to start the year who was dealing with some of those woes. There was some blocking issues up front. Is it Smith's fault Matt Spaeth can't hold his block and Archer gets blasted inside the 20? Ehhh...I'd say not. There were some clear mental errors on the blocking unit, not coaching ones.

Remember Ventrone was cut and brought up once Shark got hurt. Think he played on the coverage units from there the rest of the way. Out of Smith's control if Ventrone is active or not, or even on the roster.

There is enough to explain away on the tape and enough improvement in every phase throughout the year to on the whole, absolve Smith.

86WARD
06-02-2015, 06:01 AM
Again, I'd disagree. Archer coming out of the ends one when he shouldn't was more than jus once. Players miss blocks, can't hold blocks, whatever all the time. There comes a time when the return man needs to make a play. Great, Archer is a rookie...if he can't make a football move to avoid a tackle here and there, he shouldn't be on the unit and that's Smith's decision. As for Ventrone, that's what I am saying...he was out there and played on Special Teams at a high level...should have been there all season...I put that more on Tomlin and Colbert than Smith.

Again, 11 weeks to make an improvement? Too long...way too long.

Chidi29
06-02-2015, 02:32 PM
Again, I'd disagree. Archer coming out of the ends one when he shouldn't was more than jus once. Players miss blocks, can't hold blocks, whatever all the time. There comes a time when the return man needs to make a play. Great, Archer is a rookie...if he can't make a football move to avoid a tackle here and there, he shouldn't be on the unit and that's Smith's decision. As for Ventrone, that's what I am saying...he was out there and played on Special Teams at a high level...should have been there all season...I put that more on Tomlin and Colbert than Smith.

Again, 11 weeks to make an improvement? Too long...way too long.

Tomlin seemed to support the idea when asked about it. Some of it was situational. If you look at the recent write-up I did on SD, I highlighted a short, 19 yard return against the Browns. Archer took it out six yards deep but the Steelers were getting creamed, down 21-3, with just over two minutes left before the half. To me, it's acceptable to take the risk and return the kick. Try and produce a splash play for an offense that hadn't done anything.

And we're still talking about a rookie who was hurt early in the year and wound up having nine kick returns the entire year. He was understandably given a chance, struggled, and then pulled. If anything, you can say Smith acted rather swiftly.

Yes, it is clearly on Tomlin/Colbert for Ventrone not being on the opening roster. It's not on Smith at all. He doesn't have final say.