Moving Forward: what's solid, what's a priority to address

[Craic]

Best way to get the taste of a loss from our mouths is the hope of next year, and do we ever have a reason to hope.

What's Solid:

1. For the first time in years, I really don't care to see the O line addressed in the draft or free-agency. I think they're coming along nicely and have very high hopes for this line next year.

2. Receivers are a solid groupe. Bryant had some nice catches tonight, and seems to be maturing rather well. Wheaton is a good number 3 receiver. AB is AB.

3. We have a starting RB that shined. I'm also pretty interested in Harris after this game. I noticed him pushing the pile a couple times, making some good choices, and catching out of the backfield. Still, this position will come up again.

4. Unlike most people, I'm fine with our coaches. They understand that we're in a long-distance run, and don't knee-jerk react. That got us the top spot in the AFCN and into the playoffs in the 3rd seed—while we're in a rebuild.

5. D line has grown up this year. Tuitt, McClendon, etc. all got some good work in and look to be a solid line. McCullers or whatever his name is had some good work this year and hopefully will grow as a player.

What's a Priority:

1. I want two new safeties, please.

2. I'm split on DBs. Gay has come along and Blake has a decent future. What we need, however, is a very solid number 1, and not drafted. We need to go free-agency here and get someone that can do it, now.

3. I still want to see a solid number 2 back come in. While I'm really interested in Harris, we have no idea if he has the ability to up his game.

[polamalubeast]

Defense,defense,defense!!!!!

[fansince'76]

Defense,defense,defense!!!!!

This. Hope to hell Shamarko Thomas and Jarvis Jones start showing something next year, because if they don't it will set us back even further on that front.

[Count Steeler]

Best way to get the taste of a loss from our mouths is the hope of next year, and do we ever have a reason to hope.

What's Solid:

1. For the first time in years, I really don't care to see the O line addressed in the draft or free-agency. I think they're coming along nicely and have very high hopes for this line next year.

2. Receivers are a solid groupe. Bryant had some nice catches tonight, and seems to be maturing rather well. Wheaton is a good number 3 receiver. AB is AB.

3. We have a starting RB that shined. I'm also pretty interested in Harris after this game. I noticed him pushing the pile a couple times, making some good choices, and catching out of the backfield. Still, this position will come up again.

4. Unlike most people, I'm fine with our coaches. They understand that we're in a long-distance run, and don't knee-jerk react. That got us the top spot in the AFCN and into the playoffs in the 3rd seed—while we're in a rebuild.

5. D line has grown up this year. Tuitt, McClendon, etc. all got some good work in and look to be a solid line. McCullers or whatever his name is had some good work this year and hopefully will grow as a player.

What's a Priority:

1. I want two new safeties, please.

2. I'm split on DBs. Gay has come along and Blake has a decent future. What we need, however, is a very solid number 1, and not drafted. We need to go free-agency here and get someone that can do it, now.

3. I still want to see a solid number 2 back come in. While I'm really interested in Harris, we have no idea if he has the ability to up his game.

Pretty much where I am at as well. LB position will need to be addressed because of contracts. Jones is unimpressive. Worilds likewise. Harrison was an inspiration and quite remarkable what he was able to do this year. Moats, I hope they return him. Shazier, Spence need more time. Timmons is solid.

Gay is good, but he is getting up there in age, so we have to have at least 2 solid CBs coming in to help. Blake/McCain get be used for depth.

O LIne, sure felt good to have most of the players healthy all year, it made a difference. Foster can be upgraded, as can Gilbert. I'd be willing to give Gilbert/Adams another year to solidify RT. If we have a shot at a decent LT, we could move Beachum into the LG.

And of course, let's please draft a QB prospect in the 4th round, because who is going to hold Landry's clipboard next year?

[Craic]

This. Hope to hell Shamarko Thomas and Jarvis Jones start showing something next year, because if they don't it will set us back even further on that front.

Jones - yeah, notice I didn't even address the linebackers? I have no idea where they stand. Worilds had a decent year, one that's worth keeping him around, but not at an outrageous expense. Timmons is the bright spot and Harrison still has a little gas in the tank, I think. But we've got some big questions there, too. I guess in this coming draft, I'd like to see a number 1 draft pick on either a safety or CB, provided they can come in and contribute. Otherwise, I'd even be willing to trade a draft pick to a team to pick up a CB or safety that can help.

[HollywoodSteel]

Best way to get the taste of a loss from our mouths is the hope of next year, and do we ever have a reason to hope.

What's Solid:

1. For the first time in years, I really don't care to see the O line addressed in the draft or free-agency. I think they're coming along nicely and have very high hopes for this line next year.

2. Receivers are a solid groupe. Bryant had some nice catches tonight, and seems to be maturing rather well. Wheaton is a good number 3 receiver. AB is AB.

3. We have a starting RB that shined. I'm also pretty interested in Harris after this game. I noticed him pushing the pile a couple times, making some good choices, and catching out of the backfield. Still, this position will come up again.

4. Unlike most people, I'm fine with our coaches. They understand that we're in a long-distance run, and don't knee-jerk react. That got us the top spot in the AFCN and into the playoffs in the 3rd seed—while we're in a rebuild.

5. D line has grown up this year. Tuitt, McClendon, etc. all got some good work in and look to be a solid line. McCullers or whatever his name is had some good work this year and hopefully will grow as a player.

What's a Priority:

1. I want two new safeties, please.

2. I'm split on DBs. Gay has come along and Blake has a decent future. What we need, however, is a very solid number 1, and not drafted. We need to go free-agency here and get someone that can do it, now.

3. I still want to see a solid number 2 back come in. While I'm really interested in Harris, we have no idea if he has the ability to up his game.

Can't argue with any of it. Especially the idea of addressing a corner in FA. It's too much to ask that we draft upgrades all around. We have a very good team with a few pieces missing but I don't want to waste our window by trying to develop everyone from scratch. Are there any safeties that might also in available in FA?

As much as I hate Mitchell right now, he does seem to play better without a freelancer like Troy opposite him. Maybe he is a short term answer for one of the slots once Troy retires. Is that possible? It's unlikely that we'll draft a safety that will be starter caliber unless we go safety in the first round.

[Drazo85]

This. Hope to hell Shamarko Thomas and Jarvis Jones start showing something next year, because if they don't it will set us back even further on that front.
Jarvis looked lost tonight and i dont count anymore on him contributing much more than occasional pressure during the season. I have not given up on him yet but i dont expect as much as i used to do. Shamarko is a great special team player. Not many game film on him on defense to determine is he any good playing safety. Next season will be their third year, and if they dont contribute the coaching staff will be running out of excuses.

[dislocatedday]

I agree with all the points Craic made with one main addition.............I'm not sure we have the pass-rushing OLBs that this defensive scheme needs. I don't think they can plan for James Harrison to be the man at LOLB next year, and Worilds may not be back. Jarvis Jones is still a mystery at this point, but my gut instinct based on what I have seen tells me he does not have the strength or leverage to play at a high level at that spot.

A NT is also needed if McCullers is not capable of being a starter at that position......although the little he has played has been promising in my eyes. He was driving Olineman backwards tonight and in previous games.

I think and am hopeful that Shazier really blossoms next year. He has special abilities and is a freakish athlete. Hopefully he stays healthy and works hard in the offseason to become a special player.

[steelerdude15]

1) Troy needs to retire. His career as a player is over. He isn't anywhere near the player he once was. If he decides to come back, cut him. Don't get me wrong, I think he is a great guy and is the greatest safety in Steelers' history, but he's a former shell of himself.

2)Time to address the corner position in the draft. I'm not talking about drafting a corner in the later rounds like this team does year in and year out. I'm talking about a first rounder; someone who is a shutdown corner and can actually catch a ball. The front office and coaching staff needs to stop neglecting this issue. Biggest issue on this team IMO.

3)Find a suitable backup for Le'Veon. We're not going to find someone like Le'Veon, but if we can find a decent backup who can help eat up some carries and score some touchdowns, that would be great.

4)I think we should also let Jason Worilds go. I think he's a good guy, but he hasn't shown enough to get a contract extension. It also doesn't help that there were many times he was asked to drop back in coverage earlier in the season, but I just feel he didn't do enough for the team.

5)Enough of the playing our corners ten yards off the receiver. I hate that thought and they should trash that idea. Play press.

6)Can the front office finally bring in a good punter?

[Count Steeler]

551610886633566208

Well that is just irresponsible. What does this say about Thomas and Golden?

[Craic]

551610886633566208

Well that is just irresponsible. What does this say about Thomas and Golden?

Wow.

If that's true, fine. I'm willing to give him a training camp position, but definitely not a roster spot yet. He'll have to earn that.

[X-Terminator]

Wow.

If that's true, fine. I'm willing to give him a training camp position, but definitely not a roster spot yet. He'll have to earn that.

At the very least I give him credit for not using it as an excuse this season.

[Steeldude]

Best way to get the taste of a loss from our mouths is the hope of next year, and do we ever have a reason to hope.

What's Solid:

1. For the first time in years, I really don't care to see the O line addressed in the draft or free-agency. I think they're coming along nicely and have very high hopes for this line next year.

2. Receivers are a solid groupe. Bryant had some nice catches tonight, and seems to be maturing rather well. Wheaton is a good number 3 receiver. AB is AB.

3. We have a starting RB that shined. I'm also pretty interested in Harris after this game. I noticed him pushing the pile a couple times, making some good choices, and catching out of the backfield. Still, this position will come up again.

4. Unlike most people, I'm fine with our coaches. They understand that we're in a long-distance run, and don't knee-jerk react. That got us the top spot in the AFCN and into the playoffs in the 3rd seed—while we're in a rebuild.

5. D line has grown up this year. Tuitt, McClendon, etc. all got some good work in and look to be a solid line. McCullers or whatever his name is had some good work this year and hopefully will grow as a player.

What's a Priority:

1. I want two new safeties, please.

2. I'm split on DBs. Gay has come along and Blake has a decent future. What we need, however, is a very solid number 1, and not drafted. We need to go free-agency here and get someone that can do it, now.

3. I still want to see a solid number 2 back come in. While I'm really interested in Harris, we have no idea if he has the ability to up his game.

The tackles still need to be addressed.

OLBs who can actually make plays on their own without the help of the scheme. As of now the Steelers only have Harrison. A player they deemed not worthy. Thankfully injuries made up for the judgement of talent the coaches employ. Think how bad this season would have been if Jones was never injured.

The D-line is not strong at the point of attack. They did a better job with the pass rush this year, but run support was lacking, IMO.

As for the coaches and FO, they need to do a better job of evaluating and acquiring real football talent. Relying on splash plays is Al Davis football. It's starts in the trenches. The Steelers need to impose their will on others.

I am fine with the WRs. Some RB depth would be nice. The TE needs to be addressed. Miller's time is coming to an end.

The CBs and safeties are...well...not so swift. Hopefully Thomas gets some playing time next year. Taylor needs to be released. It's sad that some scrubs taken off the street performed better than what the Steelers drafted and deemed worthy

[steelreserve]

1. We need a real nose tackle.

2. We need at least one better safety and one better CB.

3. We do not need to address the linebacker position; we have done plenty of that in recent years.

4. We do not need to address the offensive line; we have done plenty of that in recent years.


In other words, we have EXACTLY the same needs as we did 12 months ago, which if you ask me is pretty sad and shows some really bullheaded thinking as far as personnel goes.

[KeiselPower99]

Gilbert just signed a extension he isnt going anywhere. I wanna see money spent on defense. Dont have to be flashy just find good guys.

[katmandu]

Harrison still has a little gas in the tank, I think. But we've got some big questions there, too. I agree. Harrison definitely has gas for another season... BUT, IIRC, he only signed for this season and no more. Plus, he did so rather reluctantly and with much persuasion from some of the old timers.

Several of the old timers will be gone next season and I would be very surprised if Harrison was not one of them.

[steelreserve]

I agree. Harrison definitely has gas for another season... BUT, IIRC, he only signed for this season and no more. Plus, he did so rather reluctantly and with much persuasion from some of the old timers.

Several of the old timers will be gone next season and I would be very surprised if Harrison was not one of them.

Maybe if we have him a bit more than the minimum salary. That guy has made way less money in his career than most players of similar skill, just because of weird timing. He got one big contact and he didn't even get to finish it even though he was the one guy who earned it all the way through.

Still, it seems like it'll be more a question of "want to." I'd love it if he came back though.

[crcsnail]

I agree with most of above but what do u guys think of LB Vince Williams? I know he is no Harrison . But I thought he improved a lot throughout the season. When he was on the field he always seamed to be around the ball , making tackles etc . I liked him a lot and I hope they keep him.

[Bluecoat96]

As much as I hate Mitchell right now, he does seem to play better without a freelancer like Troy opposite him. Maybe he is a short term answer for one of the slots once Troy retires. Is that possible? It's unlikely that we'll draft a safety that will be starter caliber unless we go safety in the first round.

I got an update on my phone that Mitchell revealed he played the entire year with a torn groin. I guess that could explain why he always seemed a step (or 4) behind every play.

[Count Steeler]

I agree with most of above but what do u guys think of LB Vince Williams? I know he is no Harrison . But I thought he improved a lot throughout the season. When he was on the field he always seamed to be around the ball , making tackles etc . I liked him a lot and I hope they keep him.

I would keep Williams. He has improved this year. Maybe Shazier can move to OLB?

[salamander]

Good points from everyone. One thing I definitely want to see is the for the FO to PLEASE stop with the blind loyalty to older players. When your team is playing better with the younger guys, stick with it. Don't ruin the chemistry by being overly loyal to certain players.

[ALLD]

S x 2
CB x 2
OL x 2
DL x 3
LB x 2
RB x 1
TE x 1
Don't expect Harrison, Keisel, Taylor or Polamalu back. Cut Adams, Archer, Landry & Mitchell.

[The Bark]

ILB we're set. If anybody were to move to OLB, I'd rather it be Williams. Moving Shazier there would be a waste of his speed and I honestly think he'd be undersized.

OLB is a concern. Jarvis needs started out decent enough at the beginning of the season, but then got hurt. Then Harrison essentially ate his playing time so it's hard to tell. I still think he needs to get stronger.

Thomas was a very good, hard-hitting safety at SU - watched all his games and thinks he just needs the opportunity to play other than special teams.

I wouldn't mind Harrison back, but I can honestly wave goodbye to Brett, Troy, Ike and Worilds who isn't worth the price. I agree with someone else, that CB needs to be addressed in FA. You're simply not going to draft a starting rookie into LeBeau's system.

In fact, I wouldn't mind if LeBeau retires. I've seen what he can do, is capable of, etc. I want the Butler era to begin before it's over before it started. The basis here is if you're going to acknowledge your defense is your liability at this point, then why continue to make it a work in progress for the next three to four seasons? Cut your losses now with the older players and usher in the new and get the baptism by fire over with, but I do believe if all those veterans were to leave at the same time, LeBeau very well may, too. As much as I love the guy, there's just something fundamentally wrong in today's NFL when it takes a couple of years to groom a player into a position because your defense is supposedly so complicated - yet on the other side of the ball, like with the Ravens, you have an all-pro rookie starting.

Whatever and however, they team needs to find a way to get more consistent pressure on the QB. I'm not sure the secondary has ever been that great of a unit, the d-line and linebackers success at putting pressure on the QB in the past masking the weakness. Now that the d-line and linebackers aren't able to generate that pressure, they've been exposed - though I do believe part of that is simply LeBeau's overly conservative schemes and not dialing up the blitz packages, exotic or otherwise, and I honestly believe that would change with Butler as coach.

- - - Updated - - -

And one other thing: does anybody recall Wheaton running a kickoff back BEYOND the 20 yard line at all this season? I just cringed every time he brought the ball out the last several games because he was costing yards. I think he managed to get to the 20 once last night, but surely we could do better on KO returns.

[GBMelBlount]

We have the number two offense in the NFL.

Other than a TE or offensive lineman in the middle rounds, Defense.

Period.

[Mojouw]

I honestly believe NT is not a need. Between McClendon and McCullers I think they have the position covered. I can't say for sure, but most of the big runs last night looked like they came through Tuitt and Worilds more than up the gut. I think one of the problems in the run game is that Tuitt, due to inexperience, can get caught trying to puss inside and up the field. Then, particularly on zone plays, the runner can get to his "edge". I'm certain I am not phrasing that correctly, but I think that is what I am seeing. Considering that Tuitt played for Notre Damne last season and not an NFL team, I don't really have a problem with that. The raw talent, energy level, etc is clearly there. He just needs to get the mental part locked in - like almost every rookie ever.

All in all, defensive line is not a need. Heyward had 7.5 sacks as a 3-4 end and was a monster in the run game. The Steelers looked high and low, but they have found Aaron Smith 2.0. Tuitt is clearly the answer as a bookend. His arrow is pointing up as they say. Between McClendon's ability to push the pocket from the nose and McCullers ability to be an immovable object (seriously, look at the Ravens run game in the second half in particular, McCullers basically ended anything between the guards) they can call NT good.

ILB is more than fine. They are 4 deep. OLB - glaring problem. Jones is a bust and may be better served as a 4-3 OLB in a Derrick Brooks kinda role, but has shown nothing as a 3-4 edge rusher. Worilds will want and get too much money. Harrison has something left, but playing him stops the development of anyone else - whoever that may be.

The secondary is a dumpster fire. Allen needs a psychological intervention, Mitchell needs a camp to prove his groin sucked and not him, Taylor and Polamalu need to hang them up, Mcain and Blake, are not starters, but depth and package guys. Gay is solid, but coming off a career year that may not be repeatable.

Offense is fine outside of back-up RB. However, it looks like a combo of Harris and Tate COULD be developed into the answer. Also decent vet running backs basically grow on trees.

So DBs and edge rushers and another receiving TE. Basically outside of OT. The same off-season wish list I have every year!

[dislocatedday]

We have the number two offense in the NFL.

Other than a TE or offensive lineman in the middle rounds, Defense.

Period.

+1 ........this is the strategy I think they should take into the draft. I think the Steelers can get an adequate backup RB in free agency for not much money. I don't think they should draft one at all.

[Dwinsgames]

At the very least I give him credit for not using it as an excuse this season.

This , and lord knows he has had plenty of opportunity to do so as he has been called out as often as anyone ...

I still want to address the pos through the draft

[Craic]

This , and lord knows he has had plenty of opportunity to do so as he has been called out as often as anyone ...

I still want to address the pos through the draft

Yes and no. I'd prefer to address it and the CB position through FA/trade. I think we have enough of a young core together on both sides of the ball that I'd love to see jump right in and compete from day one, rather than taking half a season for rookies their footing.

On the other hands, I'd also like to see us draft at CB and Safety for the future. Maybe bring in a couple guys in FA that have 2 or 3 good years left, then draft and let them come up under these guys.

[Dwinsgames]

Yes and no. I'd prefer to address it and the CB position through FA/trade. I think we have enough of a young core together on both sides of the ball that I'd love to see jump right in and compete from day one, rather than taking half a season for rookies their footing.

On the other hands, I'd also like to see us draft at CB and Safety for the future. Maybe bring in a couple guys in FA that have 2 or 3 good years left, then draft and let them come up under these guys.


I could live with that provided we got guys who could actually play and play well and not just start them ahead of the rookies because they are rookies ... best man takes the snaps learn while on fire if need be

[steelerdude15]

I know people think Mike Mitchell is awful and he did have a bad year, but I'm not giving up on him yet. Sure, there are things he needs to improve on like wrapping up when he makes a tackle, taking better angles to get to a runner, and stop making bone head hits, but I want to see him completely healthy and another off-season under his belt before I cast him off.

[Dwinsgames]

1. We need a real nose tackle.

2. We need at least one better safety and one better CB.

3. We do not need to address the linebacker position; we have done plenty of that in recent years.

4. We do not need to address the offensive line; we have done plenty of that in recent years.


In other words, we have EXACTLY the same needs as we did 12 months ago, which if you ask me is pretty sad and shows some really bullheaded thinking as far as personnel goes.

1) Daniel McCullers with a year under his belt and a full training camp /off season

2) agreed 100%

3) who you going to line up to rush the passer cause we only have 1 returning OLB who took snaps in 2014

4) so we continue to watch The Human Turnstile Gilbert get Ben killed ?

[Craic]

After doing a bit more looking, I'm starting to think that maybe we do need to address the NT position. I'm not sure I'm comfortable going another year with the anchor of our run defense being as weak as it is. McCullers has a lot of upside and I watched him manhandle centers like nobody's business, but does that mean he can take the big step? Don't know.

And, we do have young guys at Safety. It's time to see what they can do. Afterall, as others have said, our pass defense actually looked decent in the latter part of the season.

[steelreserve]

1) Daniel McCullers with a year under his belt and a full training camp /off season

2) agreed 100%

3) who you going to line up to rush the passer cause we only have 1 returning OLB who took snaps in 2014

4) so we continue to watch The Human Turnstile Gilbert get Ben killed ?

To your points:

1. McCullers is a solid "maybe," nothing else. Would be great if he turned out to be what we need, but NT has been SUCH a problem that I don't feel like waiting around for "maybe" is the answer.

3. Jones plus Moats or whoever can be the pass rushers. Shazier outside with Spence inside if we really can't find anyone. The problem is not the linebackers, it's the D-Line play. Put Lawrence Taylor and the Incredible Hulk rushing the passer behind our DL of the past few years, and they'll have a sub-par season. Put a couple even halfway decent LBs in there next to a good line and they'll look great. We spend all our premium picks on linebackers, without having the other parts in place to make them successful, then we wonder why they're not living up to their potential. It's like spending $5,000 on your car for rims and a sound system, and you still don't have an engine. It's not talent at the linebacker position that's our problem.

4. Yup, exactly that. We can't be perfect everywhere, and we have much more urgent needs than offensive line. The line was at least adequate for once, and it's a case where "good enough" will have to do. Gilbert and Beachum weren't what was losing us games; that was Troy, Mitchell, Ike, Cam Thomas, and Worilds. Fortunately we have a chance to replace most or all of that shit parade over the next few months, so I'd rather have good options in place than waste a high pick on an offensive tackle to replace a guy who, let's face it, isn't going anywhere. The most important thing we can do for the tackle position is whatever it takes to keep Munchak.

[Mojouw]

To your points:

1. McCullers is a solid "maybe," nothing else. Would be great if he turned out to be what we need, but NT has been SUCH a problem that I don't feel like waiting around for "maybe" is the answer.

3. Jones plus Moats or whoever can be the pass rushers. Shazier outside with Spence inside if we really can't find anyone. The problem is not the linebackers, it's the D-Line play. Put Lawrence Taylor and the Incredible Hulk rushing the passer behind our DL of the past few years, and they'll have a sub-par season. Put a couple even halfway decent LBs in there next to a good line and they'll look great. We spend all our premium picks on linebackers, without having the other parts in place to make them successful, then we wonder why they're not living up to their potential. It's like spending $5,000 on your car for rims and a sound system, and you still don't have an engine. It's not talent at the linebacker position that's our problem.

4. Yup, exactly that. We can't be perfect everywhere, and we have much more urgent needs than offensive line. The line was at least adequate for once, and it's a case where "good enough" will have to do. Gilbert and Beachum weren't what was losing us games; that was Troy, Mitchell, Ike, Cam Thomas, and Worilds. Fortunately we have a chance to replace most or all of that shit parade over the next few months, so I'd rather have good options in place than waste a high pick on an offensive tackle to replace a guy who, let's face it, isn't going anywhere. The most important thing we can do for the tackle position is whatever it takes to keep Munchak.

A rookie NT has only ever suceeded in this defense once - Casey Hampton. Unless the second coming of the "Big Snack" is available in the first round, it is not a pick that will help at all in 2015. McClendon played much better than he is given credit for in 2014. McCullers looks like an immovable object in the making. To my unpracticed eye, his play in much of the Wildcard game was outstanding. So for the NT spot to be better next season the options are to devote a round 1 pick to an "elite" DT prospect, or bank on the continued improvement of the McClendon/McCullers duo. In terms of resources, the cost-benefit favors standing pat at the nose.

There are two fundamental problems with the defense, lack of pass rush and atrocious safety play. At least one of those needs addressed in the draft. A pass rushing combination of Jones and Moats would likely be more anemic than the feeble pass rush the Steelers mustered this year. I can't think of a decent 3-4 defense w/out at least one credible outside pass rush threat. Oh. Wait. Yes I can. The 2014 Steelers. And it was awful. Shazier at 230 or so would look even worse on the edge than Worilds does.

The Steelers need to bring in 2-3 OLB'ers this off-season and anyone who is over 5'6" and claims to be able to cover NFL WRs.

[Steelman]

anyone who is over 5'6" and claims to be able to cover NFL WRs.

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/234/files/2012/01/ike.jpg

:chuckle:

[Mojouw]

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/234/files/2012/01/ike.jpg

:chuckle:

You got me there!

[steelreserve]

A rookie NT has only ever suceeded in this defense once - Casey Hampton. Unless the second coming of the "Big Snack" is available in the first round, it is not a pick that will help at all in 2015. McClendon played much better than he is given credit for in 2014. McCullers looks like an immovable object in the making. To my unpracticed eye, his play in much of the Wildcard game was outstanding. So for the NT spot to be better next season the options are to devote a round 1 pick to an "elite" DT prospect, or bank on the continued improvement of the McClendon/McCullers duo. In terms of resources, the cost-benefit favors standing pat at the nose.

There are two fundamental problems with the defense, lack of pass rush and atrocious safety play. At least one of those needs addressed in the draft. A pass rushing combination of Jones and Moats would likely be more anemic than the feeble pass rush the Steelers mustered this year. I can't think of a decent 3-4 defense w/out at least one credible outside pass rush threat. Oh. Wait. Yes I can. The 2014 Steelers. And it was awful. Shazier at 230 or so would look even worse on the edge than Worilds does.

The Steelers need to bring in 2-3 OLB'ers this off-season and anyone who is over 5'6" and claims to be able to cover NFL WRs.


Yes, that's it. Keep drafting linebackers. You do realize that's how we got into this mess on defense in the first place, right?

Ignore the nose tackle because it doesn't pencil out in the immediate short-term the same season. Guess what, it's never going to pencil out the way you apparently want it to. So the choice is to keep putting it off, and then next season you're in the same exact position, only it will take ANOTHER year to get results. We've done this before also. It's why the defense doesn't work. I hope McCullers is the guy who changes things, I really do, but it's still a question mark. He's got a long way to go before he does what Casey Hampton did. And yes, judging by the before/after that's unfolded right in front of us for the past several years, it IS most certainly worth the Round 1 pick for an "elite" DT prospect. I don't know what more evidence we need.

The whole point of this is that a good NT, coupled with what Tuitt is shaping up to be, will make our LBs into a credible pass rush. Jones and Moats have looked uninspiring because they get little help from the line; it's all 1-on-1 blocking; the tackles are generally free to block our pass rushers straight up and there are no mismatches. You have linemen drawing double-teams or collapsing the pocket, and guys like Clark Haggans come up with 8 or 10 sacks. Our overall sack totals and ability to get pressure went off a cliff whether we were with a healthy Harrison and Woodley, without a healthy Harrison and Woodley, with Jones and Worilds or without Jones and Worilds - really no matter who we've put out there. The one common theme is that Aaron Smith and Casey Hampton were replaced with a collection of guys who didn't do shit, and everyone else behind them was worse off for it, which will continue to be the case as long as we keep putting the cart before the horse with all the damn linebacker picks.

We used to be known for "developing linebackers" and coming up with great pass rushers in the middle rounds - well, no, it wasn't just coincidence that those guys turned out to be good; they had Pro Bowl caliber linemen in front of them making their jobs easier. The reason we have to spend first-round picks now, and they still don't work out, is not the old worn-out bullshit: "Well, other teams play a 3-4 now, so there's a premium on the kind of players we want." Horsecrap. What happened is we ignored the key ingredient to making the pass rushers successful for over a decade, whiffed on a couple picks by trying to make up for lost time and forcing it, and here we are. It is not something I am eager to continue for another year voluntarily.

[Mojouw]

Yes, that's it. Keep drafting linebackers. You do realize that's how we got into this mess on defense in the first place, right?

Ignore the nose tackle because it doesn't pencil out in the immediate short-term the same season. Guess what, it's never going to pencil out the way you apparently want it to. So the choice is to keep putting it off, and then next season you're in the same exact position, only it will take ANOTHER year to get results. We've done this before also. It's why the defense doesn't work. I hope McCullers is the guy who changes things, I really do, but it's still a question mark. He's got a long way to go before he does what Casey Hampton did. And yes, judging by the before/after that's unfolded right in front of us for the past several years, it IS most certainly worth the Round 1 pick for an "elite" DT prospect. I don't know what more evidence we need.

The whole point of this is that a good NT, coupled with what Tuitt is shaping up to be, will make our LBs into a credible pass rush. Jones and Moats have looked uninspiring because they get little help from the line; it's all 1-on-1 blocking; the tackles are generally free to block our pass rushers straight up and there are no mismatches. You have linemen drawing double-teams or collapsing the pocket, and guys like Clark Haggans come up with 8 or 10 sacks. Our overall sack totals and ability to get pressure went off a cliff whether we were with a healthy Harrison and Woodley, without a healthy Harrison and Woodley, with Jones and Worilds or without Jones and Worilds - really no matter who we've put out there. The one common theme is that Aaron Smith and Casey Hampton were replaced with a collection of guys who didn't do shit, and everyone else behind them was worse off for it, which will continue to be the case as long as we keep putting the cart before the horse with all the damn linebacker picks.

We used to be known for "developing linebackers" and coming up with great pass rushers in the middle rounds - well, no, it wasn't just coincidence that those guys turned out to be good; they had Pro Bowl caliber linemen in front of them making their jobs easier. The reason we have to spend first-round picks now, and they still don't work out, is not the old worn-out bullshit: "Well, other teams play a 3-4 now, so there's a premium on the kind of players we want." Horsecrap. What happened is we ignored the key ingredient to making the pass rushers successful for over a decade, whiffed on a couple picks by trying to make up for lost time and forcing it, and here we are. It is not something I am eager to continue for another year voluntarily.

I couldn't disagree more. Heyward is about as good as you can hope for at one end. Tuitt appears to be on his way at the other. Between McLendon and McCullers there is no reason to expect anything less than above average from the NT spot.

I don't care who lines up in front of them, it could be 3 of the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse, Jones and Moats have done nothing to demonstrate that they can be a consistent force rushing the passer off the edge.

For the record, Clark Haggans recorded more than 6.5 sacks once in his entire career (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HaggCl20.htm) and that was playing with a good book-end OLB and a DL that was made up of the proper double team drawing linemen. The guy rushing the passer has to have some talent as well. No one under contract for 2015 has demonstrated that for the Steelers.

As for drafting LB'ers -- here goes this list since 2007 (when Timmons and Woodley went back to back):
2014 - Shazier in Round 1 and Zumalt in Round 6
2013 - Jones in Round 1 and Williams in Round 6
2012 - Spence in Round 3 (his injury drives the picks of Williams and Shazier)
2011 - Chris Carter in Round 5
2010 - Worilds in Round 2 and Sylvester in Round 5
2009 - None
2008- Davis in Round 3

So that is 7 linebackers with 2 in the first round. In that same span of time 8 WRs and 10 DBs were taken. Jones stinks, so we agree that was waste. Spence ripped up knee, so that can't really be held against anyone. Shazier, who knows. Worilds was over-drafted. Other than those three, and they sting, the rest were middle round dart throws. Not really the reason the next great __________ isn't on the roster.

I just think that DL is a relative position of strength right now. LB and DB are not. The limited draft resources need to go there.

[steelreserve]

I just think that DL is a relative position of strength right now. LB and DB are not. The limited draft resources need to go there.


3 of the 4 linebacker spots are already filled with first-round draft picks. I don't know what else you could possibly want at that position. Unless you want to get into the "Is it too early to call _____ a bust" debate with Jones. I don't know why we're all supposed to agree he sucks; he played something like 250 snaps all year and about 170 of them were in the first three weeks. They never got him back into the rotation after his injury because Harrison was playing well. They didn't lean on Shazier or Worilds either, because Spence and Moats were doing all right. We have a bunch of average to above-average players there, including one established star and one potential star. It's a position of strength on the team, and apart from the Harrison thing being up in the air, our main loss is one Bozo who underperformed for three and half out of the four years he was here anyway. We have free agency holes all the time and we find ways to fill them without always spending a high draft pick. Grab someone if the value is there in the middle rounds, I guess, but I would not go seeking out LB as an urgent priority.

As you said, and as probably everyone would agree, DB is our worst position by far, and if we do not do something about that, I will be very angry. That includes picking a linebacker before a DB under any circumstances.

I would not call McLendon above-average at NT; he does an admirable job for a guy who does not really fit the prototypical nose tackle type, I guess. But our defensive system does not call for an OK nose tackle. It needs an awesome nose tackle. The question is not whether McLendon is average or not - average won't work. If we're going to give McCullers another year to see if he pans out, I would at least like to see us bring in a veteran guy like, say, Pat Sims, who wouldn't cost a fortune but is built like a NT and you know he can shove people around, and you can probably depend on for solid play. I'm not against the idea of McCullers being our guy, but counting on that as the ONLY option makes me very nervous.

[tube517]

We really need to bring in some competition for Brad Wingberger. This guy can hit some long punts but he will morph into Paul Ernster at the worst time.

[Craic]

We really need to bring in some competition for Brad Wingberger. This guy can hit some long punts but he will morph into Paul Ernster at the worst time.

Leave Brad Winger alone.


He's never had a punt blocked!

:chuckle:

[Psycho Ward 86]

what is the deal with the alleged problems at nose tackle? Mclendon has been playing at a high level. He cant help it if he was flanked by a god awful Cam Thomas for most of the season with an even more god awful run stopper in jason worilds. Theres a reason why the vast majority of big runs came from that side.

Look at the games where we got torched on the ground. In every single one of them, Steve Mclendon was either out or he was still being flanked by Cam Thomas. I don't think striking out or picking questionable players frequently at a position is a valid reason to stop drafting that position and/or stop drafting it so early. We just need to do a better job of drafting in that area.

Even if JJ pans out, we need something there via free agency and/or the draft. I would prefer free agency, and I saw an article on steelers depot with some great suggestions like jabaal sheard, kroy biermann, and Pernell Mcphee. Remember, he's the only one under contract.

It seems likely we get Arthur Moats and/or James Harrison back but that isnt for certain. Al Woods seemed like a sure cheap resigning and look what happened. Even if we do, where is the depth?

[Mojouw]

Hampton went what about 6 feet and 325 (of course Hampton played far north of this). McLendon is 6 feet 4 and 325. So body type seems about right.

Now, McLendon does seem to want to penetrate upfield, but that was something that Hampton did really well when he was younger as well.

McCullers is about the largest man to ever try and play NT -- so not going to draft a bigger body.

Honestly, most outside this board see McLendon as a pretty good NT. I don't see how a draft pick changes anything, even in a year or two - by then McCullers should be a force.

As to Jones, let's be honest - -he is over-matched in the NFL. He has one pass rush move that worked in the SEC and does not work in the NFL. Most Sundays he looks lost and runs around like a confused Golden Retriever puppy. If he has Worilds or Carter's college pedigree we would already be wanting him off the roster. But he did produce in college, so maybe there is hope.

In 2015 you have two starting caliber linebackers on the roster - Timmons and Shaz-penc-illiams. Moats can start, but is better inside than outside. The FA landscape is littered with guys no better than Worilds. So real improvement = a draft pick.

Maybe not before an impact CB, but a draft pick or picks nonetheless.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Hampton went what about 6 feet and 325 (of course Hampton played far north of this). McLendon is 6 feet 4 and 325. So body type seems about right.

Now, McLendon does seem to want to penetrate upfield, but that was something that Hampton did really well when he was younger as well.

McCullers is about the largest man to ever try and play NT -- so not going to draft a bigger body.

Honestly, most outside this board see McLendon as a pretty good NT. I don't see how a draft pick changes anything, even in a year or two - by then McCullers should be a force.

As to Jones, let's be honest - -he is over-matched in the NFL. He has one pass rush move that worked in the SEC and does not work in the NFL. Most Sundays he looks lost and runs around like a confused Golden Retriever puppy. If he has Worilds or Carter's college pedigree we would already be wanting him off the roster. But he did produce in college, so maybe there is hope.

In 2015 you have two starting caliber linebackers on the roster - Timmons and Shaz-penc-illiams. Moats can start, but is better inside than outside. The FA landscape is littered with guys no better than Worilds. So real improvement = a draft pick.

Maybe not before an impact CB, but a draft pick or picks nonetheless.

This. Also, Shaz-penc-williams had me rolling :lol:.

The size diversity between McCullers could really prove to be a pain for other teams preparing against us in the future. We saw first hand in that wild card game how dangerous they can be. I agree with Mojouw, that was a phenomenal game by McCullers. I thought Mclendon played arguably his best game as well

[Dwinsgames]

To your points:

1. McCullers is a solid "maybe," nothing else. Would be great if he turned out to be what we need, but NT has been SUCH a problem that I don't feel like waiting around for "maybe" is the answer.

3. Jones plus Moats or whoever can be the pass rushers. Shazier outside with Spence inside if we really can't find anyone. The problem is not the linebackers, it's the D-Line play. Put Lawrence Taylor and the Incredible Hulk rushing the passer behind our DL of the past few years, and they'll have a sub-par season. Put a couple even halfway decent LBs in there next to a good line and they'll look great. We spend all our premium picks on linebackers, without having the other parts in place to make them successful, then we wonder why they're not living up to their potential. It's like spending $5,000 on your car for rims and a sound system, and you still don't have an engine. It's not talent at the linebacker position that's our problem.

4. Yup, exactly that. We can't be perfect everywhere, and we have much more urgent needs than offensive line. The line was at least adequate for once, and it's a case where "good enough" will have to do. Gilbert and Beachum weren't what was losing us games; that was Troy, Mitchell, Ike, Cam Thomas, and Worilds. Fortunately we have a chance to replace most or all of that shit parade over the next few months, so I'd rather have good options in place than waste a high pick on an offensive tackle to replace a guy who, let's face it, isn't going anywhere. The most important thing we can do for the tackle position is whatever it takes to keep Munchak.

the problem with all this is ...

1) you are assuming spending another pick at NT will in fact be the answer when I see it as just as possible being a lateral move , a rookie in this def is difficult , IMO McCullers looked about as good as you could expect for any rookie ...

2) Jones is the only guy currently on the roster that is currently under contract in 2015 Moats may or may not sign , but Jones is still a question mark and as much as I like Moats did not see enough of him to put all my chips to the middle of the table on him being any better than what we had with Worilds this year ... and in ther 3-4 you must have a dominant pass rush from your OLB duo just as much as you need a solid NT to handle 2 men and still push the pocket a bit and cause some amount of disruption ... 1 without the other puts you no place better than where we stand today for me ...

so no we do not know for sure if McCullers is the guy , but we do know we have a big whole at OLB and we also have a big question mark at S and CB...

[Dwinsgames]

After doing a bit more looking, I'm starting to think that maybe we do need to address the NT position. I'm not sure I'm comfortable going another year with the anchor of our run defense being as weak as it is. McCullers has a lot of upside and I watched him manhandle centers like nobody's business, but does that mean he can take the big step? Don't know.

And, we do have young guys at Safety. It's time to see what they can do. Afterall, as others have said, our pass defense actually looked decent in the latter part of the season.


Shamarko first has to figure out how to be available before we can ever consider relying on him to be a player of true value

[Mojouw]

what is the deal with the alleged problems at nose tackle? Mclendon has been playing at a high level. He cant help it if he was flanked by a god awful Cam Thomas for most of the season with an even more god awful run stopper in jason worilds. Theres a reason why the vast majority of big runs came from that side.

This. This is the most straightforward way of saying it.

Seriously, what is it that people don't like about McLendon? I mean he isn't Casey Hampton, but if that is the worst you can say about him.

As for the run game, McLendon was backed by crap safety play and inexperienced LBers in Shaz-penc-illiams (I'm using it until it sticks!). All those holes that used to be filled by Foote, Polamalu, Clark, etc -- not filled so much this year.

[steelreserve]

This. This is the most straightforward way of saying it

Seriously, what is it that people don't like about McLendon? I mean he isn't Casey Hampton, but if that is the worst you can say about him.

As for the run game, McLendon was backed by crap safety play and inexperienced LBers in Shaz-penc-illiams (I'm using it until it sticks!). All those holes that used to be filled by Foote, Polamalu, Clark, etc -- not filled so much this year.


Replying not just to you, but to all the points above about McLendon/NT ... the reason why I don't think he's the answer just comes from his style of play and capabilities. Sure, he holds his own on the line, but if you look at what the real difference-making nose tackles do, that's not it. Watch guys like Casey Hampton circa 2005, or B.J. Raji in his early years, and it was like trying to block a bull. Like one of those cartoon fights where it's a dust cloud moving around with stars and curse-word dingbats flying our, and sometimes you see an arm or a head pop out. I don't see that with McLendon, just a guy playing defensive tackle. Efficient, but not disruptive. No, you can't quantify it, but the difference is there for sure, and it's not a positive one.

As for McCullers, while I remain hopeful, I just don't know. The one guy I keep coming back to is Gilbert Brown (the 370-pound DT from the Packers back in the 1990s). Is that what he's going to turn out like - an "anchor" more than a "disruptor?"

Yes, the "anchor" type of defensive tackle can be very useful and a very good player, but I think the 3-4, or at least the "pressure" 3-4, calls more for the latter. If that's what McCullers turns out to be, if we continue running the 3-4 with him and McLendon, we'd better have some frikk'n excellent defensive backs. Otherwise, it may be that they're both more suited to the 4-3 DT position in completely different ways, although apparently bringing up the idea of "4-3" around our coaching staff is worse than calling someone a motherfucker.

[Mojouw]

Replying not just to you, but to all the points above about McLendon/NT ... the reason why I don't think he's the answer just comes from his style of play and capabilities. Sure, he holds his own on the line, but if you look at what the real difference-making nose tackles do, that's not it. Watch guys like Casey Hampton circa 2005, or B.J. Raji in his early years, and it was like trying to block a bull. Like one of those cartoon fights where it's a dust cloud moving around with stars and curse-word dingbats flying our, and sometimes you see an arm or a head pop out. I don't see that with McLendon, just a guy playing defensive tackle. Efficient, but not disruptive. No, you can't quantify it, but the difference is there for sure, and it's not a positive one.

As for McCullers, while I remain hopeful, I just don't know. The one guy I keep coming back to is Gilbert Brown (the 370-pound DT from the Packers back in the 1990s). Is that what he's going to turn out like - an "anchor" more than a "disruptor?"

Yes, the "anchor" type of defensive tackle can be very useful and a very good player, but I think the 3-4, or at least the "pressure" 3-4, calls more for the latter. If that's what McCullers turns out to be, if we continue running the 3-4 with him and McLendon, we'd better have some frikk'n excellent defensive backs. Otherwise, it may be that they're both more suited to the 4-3 DT position in completely different ways, although apparently bringing up the idea of "4-3" around our coaching staff is worse than calling someone a motherfucker.

In his prime, which was fairly short, the "Gravedigger" was disruptive as all hell. He didn't post big sack or tackle #'s but he was far more than an anchor. If McCullers could have 3-5 years of Gilbert Brownness - -that would be awesome.

I can see the general point about McLendon vs Hampton, but I just disagree. I really don't think that McLendon's abilities at the point of attack are what is wrong with the run defense. I am willing to admit I may be totally, 100% wrong.

[steelreserve]

In his prime, which was fairly short, the "Gravedigger" was disruptive as all hell. He didn't post big sack or tackle #'s but he was far more than an anchor. If McCullers could have 3-5 years of Gilbert Brownness - -that would be awesome.

I can see the general point about McLendon vs Hampton, but I just disagree. I really don't think that McLendon's abilities at the point of attack are what is wrong with the run defense. I am willing to admit I may be totally, 100% wrong.


If we're talking about the run defense, and especially runs straight up the middle, I agree with you. McLendon does his job all right there. What he doesn't bring to the table (and Hampton did) is the ability to force two guys to back up while trying to block you, either collapsing the pocket or screwing up routes for delays and counters. THAT was the big disruptive factor that didn't show up in the stat sheet but made everybody else on the field much more effective, including against the pass.

One other thing that's been missing is Troy's wildcard ability, which also forced teams to scramble and adjust their blocking schemes to account for the possibility. Even when he didn't rush but just crept up to the line and scared them that he was going to, it was like having half an extra guy rushing the passer. Not as much or as consistent of a difference-makes as having an excellent nose tackle, but losing that definitely did not help.

[Craic]

If we're talking about the run defense, and especially runs straight up the middle, I agree with you. McLendon does his job all right there. What he doesn't bring to the table (and Hampton did) is the ability to force two guys to back up while trying to block you, either collapsing the pocket or screwing up routes for delays and counters. THAT was the big disruptive factor that didn't show up in the stat sheet but made everybody else on the field much more effective, including against the pass.

One other thing that's been missing is Troy's wildcard ability, which also forced teams to scramble and adjust their blocking schemes to account for the possibility. Even when he didn't rush but just crept up to the line and scared them that he was going to, it was like having half an extra guy rushing the passer. Not as much or as consistent of a difference-makes as having an excellent nose tackle, but losing that definitely did not help.

I think these are all fair statements, though I'm not sure about McLendon's run stopping ability. At least his tackle stats don't show it, and I'm afraid that's all I have to go on since I didn't focus on him this year, so I'll take your word for it.

But you bring up a different point. Basically, what you're saying is that our defense had two main points of disruption that everything else keyed from. If that is true, the ability to gain another player like Troy is little to none, and that means our defense needs to shift out of it's current philosophy to another one. I think Dick Lebeau has seen this and is in the process of doing that very thing. A year or two ago, we heard the O line saying that they were now expected to be more aggressive and go get sacks. That doesn't sound like just eating up blockers anymore, that sounds like a shift from the Zone-blitz scheme to a different kind of 3-4 defense. What that is, I have no idea. But with that said, if that's the way we're going, then maybe McClendon is a decent to good NT, and the offseason focus then has to shift from the Dline to the CBs and safeties.

[Psycho Ward 86]

One other thing that's been missing is Troy's wildcard ability, which also forced teams to scramble and adjust their blocking schemes to account for the possibility. Even when he didn't rush but just crept up to the line and scared them that he was going to, it was like having half an extra guy rushing the passer. Not as much or as consistent of a difference-makes as having an excellent nose tackle, but losing that definitely did not help.

well theres nothing mclendon can do about that. unless a superstar or two emerges on this defense, were going to have to aim to be great by having a plethora of pretty good, but not elite players on defense. and i think that will work just fine.

id rather that the sense of urgency for a NT be redirected at OLB (CB/S being bigger priorities overall). At nose tackle we have a pretty good one who we've seen play in extensive playing time and a very promising looking one. We have contingency plans there. JJ is the only OLB under contract and who knows if he'll be any good. Thats a scary thought because who knows if both the steelers and james harrison can agree that he needs to come back. And who knows if were able to hang onto arthur moats. and im most certainly not relying on zumwalt, a 6th round pick who mainly played ILB in college and didnt play at all this year.

[The Pittsburgh Kid]

1) Troy needs to retire. His career as a player is over. He isn't anywhere near the player he once was. If he decides to come back, cut him. Don't get me wrong, I think he is a great guy and is the greatest safety in Steelers' history, but he's a former shell of himself.

2)Time to address the corner position in the draft. I'm not talking about drafting a corner in the later rounds like this team does year in and year out. I'm talking about a first rounder; someone who is a shutdown corner and can actually catch a ball. The front office and coaching staff needs to stop neglecting this issue. Biggest issue on this team IMO.

3)Find a suitable backup for Le'Veon. We're not going to find someone like Le'Veon, but if we can find a decent backup who can help eat up some carries and score some touchdowns, that would be great.

4)I think we should also let Jason Worilds go. I think he's a good guy, but he hasn't shown enough to get a contract extension. It also doesn't help that there were many times he was asked to drop back in coverage earlier in the season, but I just feel he didn't do enough for the team.

5)Enough of the playing our corners ten yards off the receiver. I hate that thought and they should trash that idea. Play press.

6)Can the front office finally bring in a good punter?




As mentioned in point 6 above. The world population is over7 BILLION, There are only 32 punters in the NFL. Certainly we can find a better option living on this planet than Brad Wing.