Report Card: Steelers vs. Saints, 35-32

[Shoes]

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2014/12/01/Report-Card-Steelers-vs-Saints-35-32/stories/201412010076

[Dwinsgames]

http://539291878014087168

[Shoes]

Look at Mike Adams. All the other linemen are on their blocks, Adams was pushed back 2 to 3 feet on almost every play I saw, just by the D-lineman extending his arms with a push.

[zulater]

Look at Mike Adams. All the other linemen are on their blocks, Adams was pushed back 2 to 3 feet on almost every play I saw, just by the D-lineman extending his arms with a push.

I think that waste of a 2nd round pick is on Tomlin. He was off the Steelers board completely but because his agent arranged a meeting with Tomlin, and Tomlin decides he likes him we use a 2nd round pick on a reserve right tackle. :doh:

[GBMelBlount]

I think that waste of a 2nd round pick is on Tomlin. He was off the Steelers board completely but because his agent arranged a meeting with Tomlin, and Tomlin decides he likes him we use a 2nd round pick on a reserve right tackle. :doh:

Adams problem, like several other lineman we have drafted over the years is that he does not have the work ethic or "nasty" for the trenches imo.

Could he eventually be decent, sure.

However I would much prefer we draft linemen like Beachum who are athletic & hardworking and are overlooked because they may not have the ideal measurables (i.e. size)

However again, the fact that we have whiffed on so many players from so many recent drafts is more an indication of bad coaching than bad drafting imo (law of large numbers).

[86WARD]

More blunders. We should begin a thread just listing the blunders by the coaching staff and front office during the Tomlin era.

[zulater]

Adams problem, like several other lineman we have drafted over the years is that he does not have the work ethic or "nasty" for the trenches imo.

Could he eventually be decent, sure.

However I would much prefer we draft linemen like Beachum who are athletic & hardworking and are overlooked because they may not have the ideal measurables (i.e. size)

However again, the fact that we have whiffed on so many players from so many recent drafts is more an indication of bad coaching than bad drafting imo (law of large numbers).

Interesting. But at the same token without researching it I couldn't say? I mean are there players that get away from the Steelers who suddenly improve immensely? I'm not really seeing our washouts catch on elsewhere and tear up the league? But maybe that's not the best way to gauge it?

[GBMelBlount]

Interesting. But at the same token without researching it I couldn't say?

I mean are there players that get away from the Steelers who suddenly improve immensely?

I'm not really seeing our washouts catch on elsewhere and tear up the league? But maybe that's not the best way to gauge it?

That is a great point.

Here is a question...

Do you think the Patriots kick ass and take numbers and throttle opponenets year after year because they draft better?

That may be part of it.

But I think it is more Belichek is brilliant and runs everything from top to bottom like a well oiled machine.

Second question.

How did Belichek do in his early years as a head coach as compared to Tomlin?

[Mojouw]

Wasn't Adams rated by many as a 1st or 2nd round LEFT tackle pick that was only off of draft boards for dope? That is how I remember it being reported. Few draft evaluators questioned his talent.

Also, isn't this the same message board that roasted the coaching staff for inserting Gilbert back into the line-up earlier this season? Just saying.

[GBMelBlount]

Wasn't Adams rated by many as a 1st or 2nd round LEFT tackle pick that was only off of draft boards for dope?

That is how I remember it being reported. Few draft evaluators questioned his talent.

Also, isn't this the same message board that roasted the coaching staff for inserting Gilbert back into the line-up earlier this season? Just saying.

Absolutely, I still think he could develop into a good starter.

Everyone takes different amounts of time to transition to the NFL (assuming they do.)

[zulater]

Wasn't Adams rated by many as a 1st or 2nd round LEFT tackle pick that was only off of draft boards for dope? That is how I remember it being reported. Few draft evaluators questioned his talent.

Also, isn't this the same message board that roasted the coaching staff for inserting Gilbert back into the line-up earlier this season? Just saying.

There was a lot of division on Adams as I remember. I think his draft stock was low on many boards due to his inconsistent play.

Dwins?

[Mojouw]

There was a lot of division on Adams as I remember. I think his draft stock was low on many boards due to his inconsistent play.

Dwins?

Fair enough. I just read some reports (checked a few this morning via Google searches) and some had him as a top 10 LT.

[zulater]

Fair enough. I just read some reports (checked a few this morning via Google searches) and some had him as a top 10 LT.

Think those were early reports? I think his stock dropped as the Ohio State season progressed. He struggled against better competition as I remember

[Shoes]

Some reports have Colbert in the top 5 or 10 GM's in the NFL, which I don't think is the so. As for Gilbert and Adams, I'd trade them both for a pound of butter.

[GBMelBlount]

A lot of reports have Colbert as the second best GM in the NFL .

As for Gilbert and Adams, I'd trade them both for a pound of butter.

...and If I am not mistaken both were labeled as being potential lazy underachievers in the NFL.

Shocker.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Interesting. But at the same token without researching it I couldn't say? I mean are there players that get away from the Steelers who suddenly improve immensely? I'm not really seeing our washouts catch on elsewhere and tear up the league? But maybe that's not the best way to gauge it?

I think that overall we're drafting drafting poorly. Urbik is a guy that we cut after drafting in the 3rd round who's been a solid starter for the Bills.

[Mojouw]

I was not totally correct in my earlier report(ing). Adams was rated as a 1-2 round prospect with questions about his ability to take on speed rushers and adapt to the NFL quickly.

He was the 4th rated tackle on most boards behind Kalil, Reif, and Martin. Sounds about right. Although I might rather have Adams than a plummeting Kalil at this point.

[Dwinsgames]

There was a lot of division on Adams as I remember. I think his draft stock was low on many boards due to his inconsistent play.

Dwins?


his stock did drop from early in the process where many had him as a top 3 LT prospect to top 10-12 ...

he did have some struggles and then the failed test ...

he has failed far more as a pro and even more so since being stabbed ...

if we go back to his early play as a steeler he was a road grader on the right side for half a season starting there ...

have we seen anything close to that sort of play post stabbing ? I think not

for me the experiment is ( or should be ) over when the contract ends

[Mojouw]

I think that overall we're drafting drafting poorly. Urbik is a guy that we cut after drafting in the 3rd round who's been a solid starter for the Bills.

No. Urbik has not been a solid starter. He has had stretches of games where he isn't a total dumpster fire, but he has been in and out of the line-up since his arrival. He plays when the constant parade of people they try to replace him with get hurt or also stink. Urbik is the Bill's Trai Essex. They just keep trying to quit him, but can't.

I am by no means arguing that all former Steelers stink or that the front office is infallible, but I can't stand the "myth" that Urbik is awesome and he was one that got away. Just because he starts on a fairly crappy team the past couple of years doesn't mean that he was a mistake.

http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/nfl/5326/kraig-urbik

[SteelerFanInStl]

No. Urbik has not been a solid starter. He has had stretches of games where he isn't a total dumpster fire, but he has been in and out of the line-up since his arrival. He plays when the constant parade of people they try to replace him with get hurt or also stink. Urbik is the Bill's Trai Essex. They just keep trying to quit him, but can't.

I am by no means arguing that all former Steelers stink or that the front office is infallible, but I can't stand the "myth" that Urbik is awesome and he was one that got away. Just because he starts on a fairly crappy team the past couple of years doesn't mean that he was a mistake.

http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/nfl/5326/kraig-urbik

I didn't say that he was "awesome", just that he's been solid. Read from your own link:


He graded out as a top-20 guard at PFF in 2013, receiving positive marks both in the run and pass games.

[GBMelBlount]

his stock did drop from early in the process where many had him as a top 3 LT prospect to top 10-12 ...

he did have some struggles and then the failed test ...

he has failed far more as a pro and even more so since being stabbed ...

if we go back to his early play as a steeler he was a road grader on the right side for half a season starting there ...

have we seen anything close to that sort of play post stabbing ? I think not

for me the experiment is ( or should be ) over when the contract ends

So you think that the stabbing could still have a significant effect on his play this much later?

I can understand in a case like Spence but not so much on Adams after thi smuch time has passed.

Kids in their early twenties usually heal up pretty quick from most things...

[tube517]

That is a great point.

Here is a question...

Do you think the Patriots kick ass and take numbers and throttle opponenets year after year because they draft better?

That may be part of it.

But I think it is more Belichek is brilliant and runs everything from top to bottom like a well oiled machine.

Second question.

How did Belichek do in his early years as a head coach as compared to Tomlin?

5 seasons with the Stains, 4 losing seasons, 1 year in the playoffs. 36-44 record w/the Stains. Tomlin's early record is actually with Cowher's players so his early years are null and void :chuckle:

[plenewken]

5 seasons with the Stains, 4 losing seasons, 1 year in the playoffs. 36-44 record w/the Stains. Tomlin's early record is actually with Cowher's players so his early years are null and void :chuckle:

Bellichik has been HC for the Pats for 16 seasons now and his record as of last season was 208 W and 108 L or .658 Win %.
I don't think Tomlin will ever come close to these numbers, and I don't think it'll be coaching the Steelers this long either.

[Dwinsgames]

So you think that the stabbing could still have a significant effect on his play this much later?

I can understand in a case like Spence but not so much on Adams after thi smuch time has passed.

Kids in their early twenties usually heal up pretty quick from most things...

not sure physically the stabbing would have any impact at this point but I am no Dr.

however mentally it is hard to say what kind of lingering effects it may have ,

he plays timid now and he didn't before , is this a lingering effect ( mental ) or is it a regression in ability / style ?

I won't claim to have the answers that I clearly do not have , can only comment on what is visually clear and Mike Adams is not the same player post stabbing as he was prior to being stabbed ..

coincidence ? maybe , but I am not so sure .....

[tube517]

Bellichik has been HC for the Pats for 16 seasons now and his record as of last season was 208 W and 108 L or .658 Win %.
I don't think Tomlin will ever come close to these numbers, and I don't think it'll be coaching the Steelers this long either.

That wasn't the question. Reread what was asked.

[Mojouw]

I didn't say that he was "awesome", just that he's been solid. Read from your own link:




[/FONT][/COLOR]

And most of the rest of the linked blurbs were about the team's consistent attempts to improve on Urbik. At best Urbik is a push with Foster, the player that replaced him on the Steelers roster. We can argue all day about how good or not good Urbik is, but how would his presence on the Steelers roster improved anything over the last 3 years?

[SteelerFanInStl]

And most of the rest of the linked blurbs were about the team's consistent attempts to improve on Urbik. At best Urbik is a push with Foster, the player that replaced him on the Steelers roster. We can argue all day about how good or not good Urbik is, but how would his presence on the Steelers roster improved anything over the last 3 years?

Again, not saying that Urbik is any good. If anything, it's just another shining example of the crappy drafting that this team has done, which continues year after year.

[GBMelBlount]

(Belichek had) 5 seasons with the Stains, 4 losing seasons, 1 year in the playoffs. 36-44 record w/the Stains.

Tomlin's early record is actually with Cowher's players so his early years are null and void :chuckle:

It is funny but what you are saying about Tomlin winning with Cowher's team is very true imo.

I liken Tomlin's tenure to date more like a young kid who inherits his dad'ssuccessful company.

Everything is in place and there is not nearly as much work to do initially to continue to have success.

The bad thing about inheriting a good team or profitable company is that when you are winning right from the getgo you assume it is "easy" and fail to see the problems that are developing until it is too late because you are inexperienced and it take a while for these poor decisions to really manifest.

It also reinforces bad habits. In other words, when you are making bad choices short term and end up 12-4 for the year it SEEMS like you are doing all the right things.

Now with regard to Belichek, coming in new and inexperienced and fixing any complex system that is broken is very difficult and takes time.

So it seems like Belichek's career is a good example.

It took years of learning and good decisions, large and small to get the team right side up and winning.

So I am willing to give Tomlin another year or two, especially in light of the fact that he has not even had a losing season yet.

While I get very irritated with this team at times, when I take a step back and put things in perspective, it could be a hell of a lot worse.

....and thank God we have Ben!

[Dwinsgames]

Urbik is a quick footed player who should be used in a ZBS , nothing wrong with him as a player IMO provided he is employed in the proper scheme ...

the problem with that is we failed to recognize prior to drafting him that he did not fit the scheme we at that time employed ( a power man scheme )

this falls on Colbert , not for selecting a " bad player" but selecting a square peg and trying to place him in a round hole ...

we do this PLENTY and STILL do it not only in player selections but player utilization , see yesterdays game per example ...

Dri Archer gets 1 touch it was 2nd and 1 , they call a run play that sends Archer straight up the gut between Pouncey and Decastro ( a power running play ) with a Back that weights 175 pounds soak n wet , Anybody with half a brain knows Archers one and only strength in the run game is when he can utilize his speed so that would be stretch plays to the outside of the formation and NOT between the tackles ... Yet for his one and only touch they play him inside the box going against his one and only strength as a player ( I call this square peg / round hole ) ...

when a team plays against its own strengths they are then playing to their own deficiencies / weaknesses and those teams find ways to lose games they should not lose ...

that is a coaching deficiency , a talent pool recognition deficiency and a skill set identification deficiency ....

this entire organization is broken .... the system is broken too ...

where does Colberts tail end and Tomlins begin ? does anybody know ?

Colbert either is failing to understand what the coaching staff needs in terms of players for the scheme they employ or the coaching staff is unable to explain what they need to run the scheme properly either way its a broken system ...

if they wanted a power back to run 2nd and 1 up the gut they should have drafted Andre Williams or Storm Johnson NOT Dri Archer , if they wanted Archer then they should be understanding he is a gadget player that can get you big chunks of yardage when he plays in space catching the ball and on some runs designed to go to the outside and the occasional reverse ....

1st step at improving is recognizing what the talents are of the players you employ on your roster and playing to their strengths and not against them ...

[Mojouw]

Interesting bit of comparison. The Pats 1999 final roster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_New_England_Patriots_season#Final_roster -- Caroll's last terrible season

and the 2000 Pats SB winning roster in Belichick's second season http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_New_England_Patriots_season#Final_roster

Looks like the biggest difference was at QB and the Offensive and Defensive lines. Point being is that Belichick inherited talent as well. Maybe not as much as Tomlin, but one could argue his first SB win was with Parcells/Carroll guys. No one sees it that way because of Brady and Richard Seymour.

Not trying to go to the mat for Tomlin and Company here. I know it seems like it, but I just think that we should make our criticisms as balanced as possible.

This F.O. and coaching staff has made some bone-headed decisions. But for sake of comparison, how many otherwise SB caliber teams did Belichick's refusal to upgrade his DB's sabatoge in the mid 2000's? Every team makes poor decisions here and there. The question is does the current brain trust (I know it is a stretch!) for the Steelers make more or less than the rest of the league?

[steelreserve]

Interesting bit of comparison. The Pats 1999 final roster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_New_England_Patriots_season#Final_roster -- Caroll's last terrible season

and the 2000 Pats SB winning roster in Belichick's second season http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_New_England_Patriots_season#Final_roster

Looks like the biggest difference was at QB and the Offensive and Defensive lines. Point being is that Belichick inherited talent as well. Maybe not as much as Tomlin, but one could argue his first SB win was with Parcells/Carroll guys. No one sees it that way because of Brady and Richard Seymour.

Not trying to go to the mat for Tomlin and Company here. I know it seems like it, but I just think that we should make our criticisms as balanced as possible.

This F.O. and coaching staff has made some bone-headed decisions. But for sake of comparison, how many otherwise SB caliber teams did Belichick's refusal to upgrade his DB's sabatoge in the mid 2000's? Every team makes poor decisions here and there. The question is does the current brain trust (I know it is a stretch!) for the Steelers make more or less than the rest of the league?


There's an important difference. Belichick took over a team of "someone else's players" and then that's when they STARTED winning. Kind of like what Harbaugh did in San Francisco more recently.

Tomlin, on the other hand, took over a team of someone else's players that was ALREADY winning, and then basically rode along with them until they tailed off.

I'll give you that the Patriots' original roster was talented - but if you have a roster of talented players who aren't winning anything, and then a new coach comes along and they start winning ... that's what it looks like when a good coach makes the difference.

When you have a team that WAS winning, and then a new coach comes in and after a few years they stop winning ... that's what it looks like when a coach comes in and makes a difference negatively.

The real clincher for me is how the teams have fared over time. Belichick and Tomlin have both been around long enough that they have had to completely rebuild the roster. What is the result of building these two teams from scratch? One team keeps winning every year, the other is mediocre and would probably suck ass if not for the efforts of the only remaining Cowher-era player who makes a difference anymore (Ben, if you couldn't tell).

You can say "Well Belichick has Brady!" but Tomlin inherited a very good QB too, and when Brady missed a whole season, the rest of the team (or "the system" if you will) was still good enough to win 11 games with Matt fricking Cassel. You can say "Well, the Steelers were always drafting low!" but the Patriots were always drafting just as low, and for longer. Our roster is full of first- and second-round picks that are still struggling to live up to their potential.

Basically, one is the picture of a coach who knows exactly what the hell he is doing; the other is of a coach who is just OK. Maybe Tomlin's really not the worst; after all, the teams he put together from scratch are still 8-8, not 4-12 (again, I suspect partly thanks to Ben). But we shouldn't be aiming for OK. We should be aiming for excellent, and this isn't it. "Just be happy we're not the Raiders" - fuck that! If your goal is anything less than to win the Super Bowl, what the fuck are you even doing.

[Shoes]

It is funny but what you are saying about Tomlin winning with Cowher's team is very true imo.

I liken Tomlin's tenure to date more like a young kid who inherits his dad'ssuccessful company.

Everything is in place and there is not nearly as much work to do initially to continue to have success.

The bad thing about inheriting a good team or profitable company is that when you are winning right from the getgo you assume it is "easy" and fail to see the problems that are developing until it is too late because you are inexperienced and it take a while for these poor decisions to really manifest.

It also reinforces bad habits. In other words, when you are making bad choices short term and end up 12-4 for the year it SEEMS like you are doing all the right things.

Now with regard to Belichek, coming in new and inexperienced and fixing any complex system that is broken is very difficult and takes time.

So it seems like Belichek's career is a good example.

It took years of learning and good decisions, large and small to get the team right side up and winning.

So I am willing to give Tomlin another year or two, especially in light of the fact that he has not even had a losing season yet.

While I get very irritated with this team at times, when I take a step back and put things in perspective, it could be a hell of a lot worse.

....and thank God we have Ben!

I agree with everything you said dear brother except giving Tomlin more time. To me it's clear there is a disconnect with him, he's in over his head. The means he uses to deal with it is to delegate all responsibility to other people, then make decision on what he is told. I don't know of one good coach who operates like this but I do believe, unfortunately the Rooneys will give him more time. Colbert should be fired today.

[zulater]

There's an important difference. Belichick took over a team of "someone else's players" and then that's when they STARTED winning. Kind of like what Harbaugh did in San Francisco more recently.

Tomlin, on the other hand, took over a team of someone else's players that was ALREADY winning, and then basically rode along with them until they tailed off.

I'll give you that the Patriots' original roster was talented - but if you have a roster of talented players who aren't winning anything, and then a new coach comes along and they start winning ... that's what it looks like when a good coach makes the difference.

When you have a team that WAS winning, and then a new coach comes in and after a few years they stop winning ... that's what it looks like when a coach comes in and makes a difference negatively.

The real clincher for me is how the teams have fared over time. Belichick and Tomlin have both been around long enough that they have had to completely rebuild the roster. What is the result of building these two teams from scratch? One team keeps winning every year, the other is mediocre and would probably suck ass if not for the efforts of the only remaining Cowher-era player who makes a difference anymore (Ben, if you couldn't tell).

You can say "Well Belichick has Brady!" but Tomlin inherited a very good QB too, and when Brady missed a whole season, the rest of the team (or "the system" if you will) was still good enough to win 11 games with Matt fricking Cassel. You can say "Well, the Steelers were always drafting low!" but the Patriots were always drafting just as low, and for longer. Our roster is full of first- and second-round picks that are still struggling to live up to their potential.

Basically, one is the picture of a coach who knows exactly what the hell he is doing; the other is of a coach who is just OK. Maybe Tomlin's really not the worst; after all, the teams he put together from scratch are still 8-8, not 4-12 (again, I suspect partly thanks to Ben). But we shouldn't be aiming for OK. We should be aiming for excellent, and this isn't it. "Just be happy we're not the Raiders" - fuck that! If your goal is anything less than to win the Super Bowl, what the fuck are you even doing.

:applaudit:

[zulater]

Urbik is a quick footed player who should be used in a ZBS , nothing wrong with him as a player IMO provided he is employed in the proper scheme ...

the problem with that is we failed to recognize prior to drafting him that he did not fit the scheme we at that time employed ( a power man scheme )

this falls on Colbert , not for selecting a " bad player" but selecting a square peg and trying to place him in a round hole ...

we do this PLENTY and STILL do it not only in player selections but player utilization , see yesterdays game per example ...

Dri Archer gets 1 touch it was 2nd and 1 , they call a run play that sends Archer straight up the gut between Pouncey and Decastro ( a power running play ) with a Back that weights 175 pounds soak n wet , Anybody with half a brain knows Archers one and only strength in the run game is when he can utilize his speed so that would be stretch plays to the outside of the formation and NOT between the tackles ... Yet for his one and only touch they play him inside the box going against his one and only strength as a player ( I call this square peg / round hole ) ...

when a team plays against its own strengths they are then playing to their own deficiencies / weaknesses and those teams find ways to lose games they should not lose ...

that is a coaching deficiency , a talent pool recognition deficiency and a skill set identification deficiency ....

this entire organization is broken .... the system is broken too ...

where does Colberts tail end and Tomlins begin ? does anybody know ?

Colbert either is failing to understand what the coaching staff needs in terms of players for the scheme they employ or the coaching staff is unable to explain what they need to run the scheme properly either way its a broken system ...

if they wanted a power back to run 2nd and 1 up the gut they should have drafted Andre Williams or Storm Johnson NOT Dri Archer , if they wanted Archer then they should be understanding he is a gadget player that can get you big chunks of yardage when he plays in space catching the ball and on some runs designed to go to the outside and the occasional reverse ....

1st step at improving is recognizing what the talents are of the players you employ on your roster and playing to their strengths and not against them ...


Excellent points!

[ALLD]

F:
The team was unprepared and came out sleep walking. Brown and Bell and a couple on D came to play, but was not enough to carry the team with a QB out of sync. Coaching adjustments weren't made. It was like they were running a script of 25 plays regardless of what was working. There were no analytics applied to anything.

Ben didn't warm up until the 3rd quarter and he didn't seem to care about ball security at all. With the offensive weapons at his disposal regardless of the OL, more points should have been scored in the first half by a more mature QB. If Ben has a legitimate injury it should have been listed pre-game. His head simply was not in it and lost the game. Doesn't anybody speak to him to feel him out or pump him up before kick off?

[Shoes]

Excellent points!

Indeed!