PDA

View Full Version : Steelers' Dri Archer has minimal impact on offense, kicking game



Shoes
10-22-2014, 09:50 PM
PITTSBURGH -- Whenever I am asked after an NFL draft how the Pittsburgh Steelers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/pit/pittsburgh-steelers) fared my stock answer is this: Ask me in three years.


http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/10000/steelers-dri-archer-has-made-minimal-impact-on-offense-and-in-kicking-game

Dwinsgames
10-22-2014, 10:08 PM
people have to remember it is a HUGE leap from Kent state to the NFL , not sure how that effects him as a return man ( Josh Cribbs made exact same leap seamlessly as a returner ) , but another thing we have to remember not only is the leap huge but he is asked to be in 3 different meeting rooms as a rookie ( ST , RB and WR rooms ) its a huge portion of learning to take in ...

I think next year we will see a completely different player , less thinking more pure athletic ability ... still may be a hit / miss kind of player as his size is always going to be an issue

Steeltreal
10-22-2014, 10:14 PM
Hes a rookie, if anyone followed him at Kent St. his Junior year ended with a major leg injury. He really had minimal impact as a Senior. Basically got a year to strengthen it and blewup the Combine. If he can return to form and be used more as a RunningBack hes bound to break off some big gains.
As for Kickoff returns , I say let him keep bringing it out, its like a Horse trying to break his Maiden, might take a few before he Scores but once he does watch out he might string em in bunches.

Steeldude
10-22-2014, 10:21 PM
Hes a rookie, if anyone followed him at Kent St. his Junior year ended with a major leg injury. He really had minimal impact as a Senior. Basically got a year to strengthen it and blewup the Combine. If he can return to form and be used more as a RunningBack hes bound to break off some big gains.
As for Kickoff returns , I say let him keep bringing it out, its like a Horse trying to break his Maiden, might take a few before he Scores but once he does watch out he might string em in bunches.

IMO, they should have spent the 3rd round pick on a position of need.

Shoes
10-22-2014, 10:22 PM
people have to remember it is a HUGE leap from Kent state to the NFL , not sure how that effects him as a return man ( Josh Cribbs made exact same leap seamlessly as a returner ) , but another thing we have to remember not only is the leap huge but he is asked to be in 3 different meeting rooms as a rookie ( ST , RB and WR rooms ) its a huge portion of learning to take in ...

I think next year we will see a completely different player , less thinking more pure athletic ability ... still may be a hit / miss kind of player as his size is always going to be an issue

Agreed Dwins, he hasn't had much of a chance to do anything.

Dwinsgames
10-22-2014, 10:38 PM
IMO, they should have spent the 3rd round pick on a position of need.

when it went down I was pissed because I wanted Bryant ( he ended up being there later so lessened the blow )

but when we took Bryant later I though we missed our chance at McCullers or Justin Ellis , but we ended up with McCullers anyways so was less concerned ...

wish we had taken a CB but thought we might be ok who would have thought Cortez would have stunk it up like he has ( I certainly did not see that coming )

Devilsdancefloor
10-22-2014, 10:43 PM
IMO, they should have spent the 3rd round pick on a position of need.
you mean like a CB? bah we get those in the 4th and beyond...... i really think every one is looking for the next sproles and that dude is just special. i hate the pick yes he is fast but i dont think we needed him hope he changes my mind

stillers4me
10-23-2014, 05:51 AM
Is it Dri or those around him? He can't run down the field unless they block for him.

BTW, I don't know if any posted it, but I saw that we parted ways with our long awaited CB from the 2014 5th round, Shaq Richardson with an injury settlement.
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2014/10/steelers-reach-injury-settlement-rookie-cb-shaquille-richardson/

Shoes
10-23-2014, 07:57 AM
>snip<


BTW, I don't know if any posted it, but I saw that we parted ways with our long awaited CB from the 2014 5th round, Shaq Richardson with an injury settlement.
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2014/10/steelers-reach-injury-settlement-rookie-cb-shaquille-richardson/

Two gone from the 2014 draft, who's next?

ALLD
10-23-2014, 08:09 AM
The Archer pick is something Al Davis would do. If he was going to be good in the return game he would have flashed something in the attempts he already had. Guy can't make it to the 20 on KRs and that's simply not the productivity of a star.

zulater
10-23-2014, 08:25 AM
IMO, they should have spent the 3rd round pick on a position of need.

Too late for that now. I don't think this guy runs with the vision or instinct needed at this level. I don't think that will change. Straight line speed at his level of college ball was good enough. But it doesn't translate to the NFL unless you have some wiggle and field awareness. Some things you can't teach. Instinct being chief among them. I think this will prove to be a wasted pick. I think trying to force feed him into games will continue to backfire. Every touch they give to him takes the ball out of a legitimate NFL player's hands.

This is how I feel. I hope I'm proven wrong.

one side only
10-23-2014, 08:41 AM
I just hope the Colts kick it Archer every time, regardless of field position. I have a feeling the Colts will try a surprise onside, with Pat McAfee kicking to himself. The Colts are 3 for 3 in onside kicks this year.

slippy
10-23-2014, 02:23 PM
hated the pick at the time, a real head scratcher. hate it even more now. hope you're happy todd.

and to echo Zu, every rep for archer is one less rep for blount/bell. stupid stupid stupid.

remember when they were going to teach him to return punts ... LOL.

steelreserve
10-23-2014, 03:22 PM
This is turning out exactly as I thought. Running back who can't run, receiver who can't get open. And I guess someone forgot to tell Tomlin/Haley/Colbert that the NFL barely even has kickoffs anymore, so a return man's going to help you much there.

It should've been easy to see this coming. 4.2 speed in the 40-yard dash doesn't make much difference when everyone else is running a 4.4 and they also know how to get the angles on you. It makes a big difference at a small college where most people's speed is approaching 5.0, but it's a different ballgame in the pros and if speed was the only thing making you stand out, you're toast, the light bulb is not going to click on, forget it.

Archer's speed compared to a normal NFL defender's speed is good for about an extra foot every 10 yards of running. Even if you're Usain Bolt, you're not going to beat anyone with straight-line speed, ever. Just line up an extra foot or two outside, and you stop him from turning the corner. It might be a different story if he could react to the defense, create some hesitation or make them cheat a little, spot an opening and make a move at just the right time. But he can't. He just runs in a straight line, and since the defenders are in the right position, they tackle him. Incidentally, a lot of this is the same skill set needed to make an effective kick returner. Lacking that, it's no surprise that he's struggling at both. Wish we could have that pick back.

Count Steeler
10-23-2014, 03:41 PM
Come on now. He is improving. Heck he got us to the18 yard line on 1 return.

Maybe someone should tell him we get the 20 just by taking a knee.

GBMelBlount
10-23-2014, 04:06 PM
Come on now. He is improving. Heck he got us to the18 yard line on 1 return.

Maybe someone should tell him we get the 20 just by taking a knee.

LOL

Mojouw
10-23-2014, 05:33 PM
Here are Darren Sproles stats. Look at his rookie year -- not that great. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SproDa00.htm

Sproles is what the Steelers have to hope Archer can grow into. He is likely the ceiling; with Rainey being the floor; and McCluster somewhere in the middle.

Looking at other small speedy return guys (McCluster, Josh Cribbs, Sproles, etc) they all took 1-3 years to really find their way. Some even made the Pro Bowl as return guys at the end of that window. I am not saying that Archer is going to do that, but it will be a process for him to adjust to simply not being so much faster that he can run by everyone. Dennard Robinson stunk last year for the Jags. Now it looks like he may have figured out how to make his skills play in the NFL.

If we are willing to give WR prospects 1-2 years to "figure it out" and "adjust to the pro game" (see the year 3 breakout that is always predicted for WR projects) or to let lineman take a year in the weight room to get ready to start in the NFL, then Archer should get a bit of lee-way as well to make adjustments to his game and settle into a role. Hard to have an impact when you touch the ball less than 10 times a game.

As to the "Wasted draft pick" argument, it very well may be. But look at the CB's drafted after Archer and before Bryant in the 4th. None of them has yet to have any impact on the current season. Who knows going forward. In fact the corner drafted after the 2nd round that is having the biggest impact is EJ Gaines who went in the 6th to the Rams - -after we took Shaq Richardson (who is cut now). So if anything -- we could focus more of the draft anger there.

I'll start. Richardson was a wasted pick. Gaines was sitting on the board and Dumbert and Momlin ignored him to take one of Lake's guys from recruiting. Stupid. Wasted pick.

What we all should really be lamenting is that the emerging freak of nature that is Jerrick McKinon went one pick before the Steelers took Archer.

Steeldude
10-23-2014, 05:40 PM
you mean like a CB? bah we get those in the 4th and beyond...... i really think every one is looking for the next sproles and that dude is just special. i hate the pick yes he is fast but i dont think we needed him hope he changes my mind

I was thinking more like a LT prospect.

zulater
10-23-2014, 05:44 PM
Sproles averaged 24.3 yards per kick return as a rookie. Archer's longest kick return to date is 23 yards. And Rainey averaged 26.5 yards per kickoff return as a rookie.

Mojouw
10-23-2014, 06:03 PM
Sproles averaged 24.3 yards per kick return as a rookie. Archer's longest kick return to date is 23 yards. And Rainey averaged 26.5 yards per kickoff return as a rookie.

I get it. Archer is not very good at all right now. It is also 7 weeks into his pro career. I am saying give him at least until the end of the season before we totally throw him out of the NFL and to the CFL.

Also, there are other aspects of the game that Archer MAY be able to contribute too. Hopefully now that the staff seems to be realizing that they can play the young guys, we see Archer get a chance to do something outside of the kicking game.

- - - Updated - - -


I was thinking more like a LT prospect.

We have 4 or 5 post 1st round LT prospects on the roster currently. 2 of them are struggling to play RT at a consistently mediocre level. 1 is doing a fairly decent imitation of a LG. 1 is on the bench as the swing lineman. 1 is almost miraculously hanging on as a slightly lesser version of Max Starks at LT. That does not count the one who is now on some other team's practice squad.

So, no, I will not lament the lack of yet another, slow-footed, dim-witted LT prospect taken in 3-5 round. The one prospect everyone but Buffalo missed on was Henderson. Smoked some weed, got fat, and went in like the 7th round. Then showed up and won the job in camp over a guy drafted in the 2nd. Oops. That is the kind of prospect I would be willing to lament not taking.

SteelerFanInStl
10-23-2014, 06:25 PM
Too late for that now. I don't think this guy runs with the vision or instinct needed at this level. I don't think that will change. Straight line speed at his level of college ball was good enough. But it doesn't translate to the NFL unless you have some wiggle and field awareness. Some things you can't teach. Instinct being chief among them. I think this will prove to be a wasted pick. I think trying to force feed him into games will continue to backfire. Every touch they give to him takes the ball out of a legitimate NFL player's hands.

This is how I feel. I hope I'm proven wrong.

I think that you're right on here. Archer doesn't seem to have that awareness and field vision that's needed.

Compare him to AB. Archer is much faster in a straight line but AB makes guys miss and has great elusiveness. Archer just seems to run right into guys.

zulater
10-23-2014, 06:40 PM
I think that you're right on here. Archer doesn't seem to have that awareness and field vision that's needed.

Compare him to AB. Archer is much faster in a straight line but AB makes guys miss and has great elusiveness. Archer just seems to run right into guys.

And gets tackled by a fingertip.

Shoes
10-23-2014, 07:01 PM
Sproles averaged 24.3 yards per kick return as a rookie. Archer's longest kick return to date is 23 yards. And Rainey averaged 26.5 yards per kickoff return as a rookie.

I think Sproles surely had more opportunities. I believe he was returning kicks ( as a rookie) before the rule was changed, no so with Archer. I think Dwins nailed it with being meeting-upped and little chance to play.

Count Steeler
10-23-2014, 07:03 PM
I was thinking more like a LT prospect.

What's that?

Hindes204
10-23-2014, 07:21 PM
Too late for that now. I don't think this guy runs with the vision or instinct needed at this level. I don't think that will change. Straight line speed at his level of college ball was good enough. But it doesn't translate to the NFL unless you have some wiggle and field awareness. Some things you can't teach. Instinct being chief among them. I think this will prove to be a wasted pick. I think trying to force feed him into games will continue to backfire. Every touch they give to him takes the ball out of a legitimate NFL player's hands.

This is how I feel. I hope I'm proven wrong.

these were my thoughts as soon as they drafted him....my thoughts have not changed

86WARD
10-23-2014, 07:55 PM
He's a waste. Fits in perfect with the Steelers recent draft history.

Dwinsgames
10-23-2014, 08:06 PM
As to the "Wasted draft pick" argument, it very well may be. But look at the CB's drafted after Archer and before Bryant in the 4th. None of them has yet to have any impact on the current season. Who knows going forward. In fact the corner drafted after the 2nd round that is having the biggest impact is EJ Gaines who went in the 6th to the Rams - -after we took Shaq Richardson (who is cut now). So if anything -- we could focus more of the draft anger there.

I'll start. Richardson was a wasted pick. Gaines was sitting on the board and Dumbert and Momlin ignored him to take one of Lake's guys from recruiting. Stupid. Wasted pick.



Gaines ( EJ and Phillip ) both got talked about in our draft forum quite a bit ... and NOBODY talked about Shaq Richardson ... this is part of what pisses me off so much about Colbert and his scouting department ...

I am not sure what kind of schedules the rest of the guys that regularly talk in that section of the forum have but I work , have a second part time business as well , have family and grandchildren yet I find the time to scout players extensively prior to the draft without the resources those men have ( steeler employed pros that are paid to do that and little else so far more time to do so )

yet we can come up with Gaines and they come up with Shaq Richardson ... WTF that for me speaks volumes people either have no clue how to do their jobs or they simply are negligent in doing so IMO and its rinse repeat of the same bozos year in and out in the scouting department and when one does leave Colbert simply hires another family member or friend to fill the supposed void instead of someone who can do the job and will do so diligently

fansince'76
10-23-2014, 08:13 PM
Here are Darren Sproles stats. Look at his rookie year -- not that great. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SproDa00.htm

Sproles is what the Steelers have to hope Archer can grow into. He is likely the ceiling; with Rainey being the floor; and McCluster somewhere in the middle.

Looking at other small speedy return guys (McCluster, Josh Cribbs, Sproles, etc) they all took 1-3 years to really find their way. Some even made the Pro Bowl as return guys at the end of that window. I am not saying that Archer is going to do that, but it will be a process for him to adjust to simply not being so much faster that he can run by everyone. Dennard Robinson stunk last year for the Jags. Now it looks like he may have figured out how to make his skills play in the NFL.

Seems to me we could have gotten the same thing from a UDFA and not burned a fairly high pick in the process.

Oh well, what's done is done. I've never been into crying over spilled milk when it comes to draft picks, because everybody misses on picks. Everybody.

SteelerFanInStl
10-23-2014, 08:26 PM
Gaines ( EJ and Phillip ) both got talked about in our draft forum quite a bit ... and NOBODY talked about Shaq Richardson ... this is part of what pisses me off so much about Colbert and his scouting department ...

I pushed for EJ Gaines quite a bit in here. It was a bit of a homer pick since he's from Mizzou but I knew that the kid could play. He didn't get drafted higher because he's not 6' 2" and doesn't run a 4.3 40.

Dwinsgames
10-23-2014, 08:49 PM
I pushed for EJ Gaines quite a bit in here. It was a bit of a homer pick since he's from Mizzou but I knew that the kid could play. He didn't get drafted higher because he's not 6' 2" and doesn't run a 4.3 40.

nope he is closer to 5'9 and 4.45 but he can cover and proved it vs upper level competition at the College ranks holding guys who where slated to go in the 1st round at WR with little to nothing to show vs him ...

kid packs his lunch and comes to play , can NEVER have enough of those sort of players on a roster IMO 5'9 or otherwise

TMC
10-24-2014, 07:04 AM
If we are willing to give WR prospects 1-2 years to "figure it out" and "adjust to the pro game" (see the year 3 breakout that is always predicted for WR projects) or to let lineman take a year in the weight room to get ready to start in the NFL, then Archer should get a bit of lee-way as well to make adjustments to his game and settle into a role. Hard to have an impact when you touch the ball less than 10 times a game.

As to the "Wasted draft pick" argument, it very well may be. But look at the CB's drafted after Archer and before Bryant in the 4th. None of them has yet to have any impact on the current season. Who knows going forward. In fact the corner drafted after the 2nd round that is having the biggest impact is EJ Gaines who went in the 6th to the Rams - -after we took Shaq Richardson (who is cut now). So if anything -- we could focus more of the draft anger there.

I'll start. Richardson was a wasted pick. Gaines was sitting on the board and Dumbert and Momlin ignored him to take one of Lake's guys from recruiting. Stupid. Wasted pick.

I'll tell you why I am fine waiting on a WR, OL, LB, or any other position to develop, because after that 2nd or 3rd year, I have a full-time starter that is game ready to play 60-70 snaps and contribute fully. That is the goal, to draft a guy in the later rounds that DEVELOPS into a heavy contributor. What will Archer develop into? People are talking he may be Darren Sproles (not buying it, but that is the ceiling). The thing is, Sproles is 190 pounds and better able to stand the beating as a runningback. Archer is only 173. So, if anyone thinks he can stand in the backfield like Sproles has done (he had 850 snaps from scrimmage in 2 different seasons since 2011 to garner his production), they are out of their mind.

He is too small to carry that load as a runningback. He is too raw in his skill set to handle being a WR. He is, at best, a damn gimmick. And we are now being told we have to wait 3 seasons for a gimmick? He is not going to develop into a player that can come in and contribute in the normal offense. He lacks the size to do it as a RB and the ability to do it as a WR.

As for who came after him, why not Brandon Thomas. Sure, he was injured, but he has tackle potential and certainly has a shot at playing LG. Foster's contract is up after this season. Maybe they take a backup interior guy. Bryan Stork was the next inside player drafted, he started for the Pats prior to injury. He is 6'4"-310 pounds and started as a rookie. They could have taken Cameron Fleming, a true 6'6"-325 pound right tackle that has some brains (he majored in Aeronautics and Aviation, he is a rocket scientist). No need to take a shot at fixing this OL, just let Ben run. What about Justin Ellis? Here is a novel idea, why not draft Ellis, then take McCullers later as well. Ellis can play LDE. What about Taylor Hart, the DE from Oregon that was compared to Aaron Smith? Then, you have youth learning all across the DL so, maybe next year, it just does not suck. Hey, how about a RB that can actually play RB? Why not Devonte Freeman, Andre Williams, or Ka'deem Carey? All are over 200 pounds and should be more capable of being a contributor at RB? Want a WR? Well, I would have taken Bryant in the 3rd, but that does not mean they could not have doubled down with the 4th and taken another WR. You want a smaller slot guy? Robert Herron. Possession receiver? Jared Abbrederis. Bigger WR? Devin Street. Developmental guy? Quincy Enunwa.

What about a defensive back? Hey, a novel idea, maybe they should try and find a pass rush. Nope, the smart move was to take a gimmick. I never will understand that one. They could have signed a 400-pound kick return specialist whose best move is kneeling on the ball and, to this point in the season, they would have better starting field position.

It defies logic.

ALLD
10-24-2014, 07:19 AM
The reason they took Archer is because they didn't know Bell was going to be MVP this season. They wanted to give as much help as possible to the O. I don't agree with the strategy, but I understand the assumption of their logic looking into the unknown.

A solid OL with a good running game will add at least a couple of extra wins over the season. We now have a good running game without Archer who is not a RB. Big 3rd round gamble where we usually hit on a WR. Long shots are too unpredictable, give Munchak two picks in the first four rounds next draft.

Mojouw
10-24-2014, 10:24 AM
Gaines ( EJ and Phillip ) both got talked about in our draft forum quite a bit ... and NOBODY talked about Shaq Richardson ... this is part of what pisses me off so much about Colbert and his scouting department ...

I am not sure what kind of schedules the rest of the guys that regularly talk in that section of the forum have but I work , have a second part time business as well , have family and grandchildren yet I find the time to scout players extensively prior to the draft without the resources those men have ( steeler employed pros that are paid to do that and little else so far more time to do so )

yet we can come up with Gaines and they come up with Shaq Richardson ... WTF that for me speaks volumes people either have no clue how to do their jobs or they simply are negligent in doing so IMO and its rinse repeat of the same bozos year in and out in the scouting department and when one does leave Colbert simply hires another family member or friend to fill the supposed void instead of someone who can do the job and will do so diligently

I know that many pushed for Gaines on here. In fact postings in this forum were the only reason I knew about the guy. My limited point was the Archer pick is not the ONLY reason that we do not have a young CB on the roster. The Richardson and ZUmmalt picks can be blamed just as easily.

Mojouw
10-24-2014, 10:35 AM
I'll tell you why I am fine waiting on a WR, OL, LB, or any other position to develop, because after that 2nd or 3rd year, I have a full-time starter that is game ready to play 60-70 snaps and contribute fully. That is the goal, to draft a guy in the later rounds that DEVELOPS into a heavy contributor. What will Archer develop into? People are talking he may be Darren Sproles (not buying it, but that is the ceiling). The thing is, Sproles is 190 pounds and better able to stand the beating as a runningback. Archer is only 173. So, if anyone thinks he can stand in the backfield like Sproles has done (he had 850 snaps from scrimmage in 2 different seasons since 2011 to garner his production), they are out of their mind.

He is too small to carry that load as a runningback. He is too raw in his skill set to handle being a WR. He is, at best, a damn gimmick. And we are now being told we have to wait 3 seasons for a gimmick? He is not going to develop into a player that can come in and contribute in the normal offense. He lacks the size to do it as a RB and the ability to do it as a WR.

As for who came after him, why not Brandon Thomas. Sure, he was injured, but he has tackle potential and certainly has a shot at playing LG. Foster's contract is up after this season. Maybe they take a backup interior guy. Bryan Stork was the next inside player drafted, he started for the Pats prior to injury. He is 6'4"-310 pounds and started as a rookie. They could have taken Cameron Fleming, a true 6'6"-325 pound right tackle that has some brains (he majored in Aeronautics and Aviation, he is a rocket scientist). No need to take a shot at fixing this OL, just let Ben run. What about Justin Ellis? Here is a novel idea, why not draft Ellis, then take McCullers later as well. Ellis can play LDE. What about Taylor Hart, the DE from Oregon that was compared to Aaron Smith? Then, you have youth learning all across the DL so, maybe next year, it just does not suck. Hey, how about a RB that can actually play RB? Why not Devonte Freeman, Andre Williams, or Ka'deem Carey? All are over 200 pounds and should be more capable of being a contributor at RB? Want a WR? Well, I would have taken Bryant in the 3rd, but that does not mean they could not have doubled down with the 4th and taken another WR. You want a smaller slot guy? Robert Herron. Possession receiver? Jared Abbrederis. Bigger WR? Devin Street. Developmental guy? Quincy Enunwa.

What about a defensive back? Hey, a novel idea, maybe they should try and find a pass rush. Nope, the smart move was to take a gimmick. I never will understand that one. They could have signed a 400-pound kick return specialist whose best move is kneeling on the ball and, to this point in the season, they would have better starting field position.

It defies logic.

I can not really disagree. I do not think he is going to be Darren Sproles 2.0 either. I suspect he will get cut prior to the start of next season. My only point was that Archer does deserve some time to develop, as he will need to attempt (which may fail) to adapt his skill set to the NFL. Other comparable players who have successfully done that (defined as guys still in the league and playing snaps) needed a season or two.

I think this past draft, for me at least, cemented what the Colbert/Tomlin roster construction strategy is/will be (assuming they get another chance). They are clearly going down a path of identifying size and or speed "freaks" and then attempting to guess what round they have to draft them in to get them on the roster. Shazier, Bryant, Archer, McCullers, Tuitt, and to an extent Heyward, Pouncey, and DeCastro as well as even Timmons are guys whose size and quickness or raw speed are what immediately stands out about them. However, this year, the duo took it to the next level. They clearly were taking gambles on size/speed guys in previous drafts (well, hello Limas Sweed), but this draft they seemed to push it to the extreme.

Not saying I am in total agreement with it. I also think there is a painful disconnect between what Colbert and Tomlin appear to be envisioning and what the team is actually putting on the field. If it is the array of freakishly fast offensive weapons, and a "run and hit" defense, then the kids got to play not the vets from the previous model. I guess I am saying that I am starting to see a chain of logic here, I don't like it, but since I no longer think this team can be competitive again without a major overhaul, I'm just going to sit back and let it play out.

steelreserve
10-24-2014, 10:54 AM
Oh well, what's done is done. I've never been into crying over spilled milk when it comes to draft picks, because everybody misses on picks. Everybody.


True, but it's rare to see us just throw one in the garbage like that. It was a WTF pick from about a second after his name was called (faster than he can run the 40), and it turns out WTF was right.



The reason they took Archer is because they didn't know Bell was going to be MVP this season. They wanted to give as much help as possible to the O. I don't agree with the strategy, but I understand the assumption of their logic looking into the unknown.

A solid OL with a good running game will add at least a couple of extra wins over the season. We now have a good running game without Archer who is not a RB. Big 3rd round gamble where we usually hit on a WR. Long shots are too unpredictable, give Munchak two picks in the first four rounds next draft.


No. NO. We've ruined both the offense and the defense by drafting nothing but linemen and LBs 1-2 for almost a decade, and missing on half of them. Sign one in free agency if we really have to.

In the draft we need to deal with other problems and do so now.

NO MORE LINEMEN.

SteelerFanInStl
10-24-2014, 01:19 PM
No. NO. We've ruined both the offense and the defense by drafting nothing but linemen and LBs 1-2 for almost a decade, and missing on half of them. Sign one in free agency if we really have to.

In the draft we need to deal with other problems and do so now.

NO MORE LINEMEN.

But yet we still don't have a competent starting LT. Beachum is not the answer there. We need a new LT, either through the draft or FA, and then we can move Beachum to LG.

RT is also still up in the air for us. We can only hope that either Adams or Gilbert steps up their game and at least becomes adequate.

steelreserve
10-24-2014, 01:26 PM
But yet we still don't have a competent starting LT. Beachum is not the answer there. We need a new LT, either through the draft or FA, and then we can move Beachum to LG.


I don't agree with that. Beachum's OK. Not great, but not Jonathan Scott either. Yeah, it'd be nice to have a really good LT, but they cost $10M as free agents and as far as drafting, we have other things that are much more pressing needs than making sure every single OL position is a five-star talent. I wouldn't be opposed to signing a mid-range veteran, Flozell Adams style, if a guy like that becomes available. But if you asked me to pick between fixing the defense and upgrading one position on the OL which will cost us our #1 draft pick, the defensive need wins and it's not even close.

NO MORE LINEMEN.

Mojouw
10-24-2014, 01:59 PM
I don't agree with that. Beachum's OK. Not great, but not Jonathan Scott either. Yeah, it'd be nice to have a really good LT, but they cost $10M as free agents and as far as drafting, we have other things that are much more pressing needs than making sure every single OL position is a five-star talent. I wouldn't be opposed to signing a mid-range veteran, Flozell Adams style, if a guy like that becomes available. But if you asked me to pick between fixing the defense and upgrading one position on the OL which will cost us our #1 draft pick, the defensive need wins and it's not even close.

NO MORE LINEMEN.

Look what a dominant o-line of all high draft picks that actually play like it has done for the Cowboys. It covers up for multiple deficiencies elsewhere. You build a team from the line out. If the Steelers have a chance to significantly upgrade the offensive tackle position, either in the draft or through free agency, they would be foolish to not take it.

steelreserve
10-24-2014, 02:11 PM
Look what a dominant o-line of all high draft picks that actually play like it has done for the Cowboys. It covers up for multiple deficiencies elsewhere. You build a team from the line out. If the Steelers have a chance to significantly upgrade the offensive tackle position, either in the draft or through free agency, they would be foolish to not take it.


If we just got the opportunity for free, then yes, we'd be foolish not to take it. But everything has a cost.

If the cost is that all the good DBs are off the board, so we wait like idiots until the fifth round to draft yet another CB who doesn't make the team - then we'd be foolish to take the lineman. Or if the cost is another shitpile pass rush for five years - then we'd be foolish to take the

Our offensive line is far from perfect, but sorry, we really need to make do and fix other things. Another year of piling the draft picks on there means our talent rot everywhere else is only going to get worse.

To put it as bluntly as possible: Yes, right now I think the offensive line IS less important than that.

Dwinsgames
10-24-2014, 02:22 PM
If we just got the opportunity for free, then yes, we'd be foolish not to take it. But everything has a cost.

If the cost is that all the good DBs are off the board, so we wait like idiots until the fifth round to draft yet another CB who doesn't make the team - then we'd be foolish to take the lineman. Or if the cost is another shitpile pass rush for five years - then we'd be foolish to take the

Our offensive line is far from perfect, but sorry, we really need to make do and fix other things. Another year of piling the draft picks on there means our talent rot everywhere else is only going to get worse.

To put it as bluntly as possible: Yes, right now I think the offensive line IS less important than that.


while I understand your logic in my opinion it is flawed logic here is why ...

the old adage of it all starts up front did not become a famous saying as a bunch of hollow words , it is a fact ...

a teams Offense gets dramatically better the longer the line can protect the QB from duress , and the same is true for a def the quicker a QB is under duress the better the CBs become ...

its easy to cover for 1.7 seconds after the snap the hard part is covering from that point on ...

if both lines are strong you can protect longer and harass quicker , making both sides of the football team more effective ....

we complain about lacking a pass rush but in the 34 the linebackers will only be as effective as the lineman they line up behind ....

we complain about our CBs ability to cover but with no pass rush they are being asked to cover longer than they should need to based on the scheme .... ( that is in no way saying we have great corners because we do not but with a great pass rush you do not need great corners average looks great )

just my opinion

steelreserve
10-24-2014, 03:11 PM
Well, you're right in a grand-scheme-of-things sense, but is the way to address the offensive line by spending another two or three #1 picks on it? No, we can't afford to do that anymore. The relative cost is too much now. We have to settle for pretty-good with the line unless we want other things to become critical failures.

To use another car analogy, this would be like taking a car that runs OK, not great, but the front end is creaking and the mechanic tells you there are cracks in the metal ... so you spend $5,000 turbocharging the engine. Then in six months, you snap the front axle and the wheels fall off. Great engine. Car doesn't run. That's our situation if we burn any more top picks on the offensive line.

On the defensive side of the ball, our biggest need IS on the line, just not where we've been picking with all of the high choices. Every year: "Oh, but this!" "Oh, but that!" The bottom line is we haven't drafted a nose tackle since the Clinton administration, and there's no excuse for that. You're absolutely correct that it's a cascading problem from the DL to the pass rush to the secondary. Getting a real nose tackle is how to fix that. I've been saying it for years. Although we also need to do better with the guys we have back there covering if we want it to all come together.

The one common theme in all of that: There are two or three serious positions of need, and none of them have anything to do with offensive tackles.

Dwinsgames
10-24-2014, 03:16 PM
Well, you're right in a grand-scheme-of-things sense, but is the way to address the offensive line by spending another two or three #1 picks on it? No, we can't afford to do that anymore. The relative cost is too much now. We have to settle for pretty-good with the line unless we want other things to become critical failures.

To use another car analogy, this would be like taking a car that runs OK, not great, but the front end is creaking and the mechanic tells you there are cracks in the metal ... so you spend $5,000 turbocharging the engine. Then in six months, you snap the front axle and the wheels fall off. Great engine. Car doesn't run. That's our situation if we burn any more top picks on the offensive line.

On the defensive side of the ball, our biggest need IS on the line, just not where we've been picking with all of the high choices. Every year: "Oh, but this!" "Oh, but that!" The bottom line is we haven't drafted a nose tackle since the Clinton administration, and there's no excuse for that. You're absolutely correct that it's a cascading problem from the DL to the pass rush to the secondary. Getting a real nose tackle is how to fix that. I've been saying it for years. Although we also need to do better with the guys we have back there covering if we want it to all come together.

The one common theme in all of that: There are two or three serious positions of need, and none of them have anything to do with offensive tackles.


well we did draft the drunk driver hit and run artist , and we now have the Mammoth Big Dan ....but I think you was meaning high round pick 1-2 not 4-6

steelreserve
10-24-2014, 03:45 PM
well we did draft the drunk driver hit and run artist , and we now have the Mammoth Big Dan ....but I think you was meaning high round pick 1-2 not 4-6


Yeah ... in other words, I mean actually trying. Not using the same late-round-flyer strategy we use for CBs. Funny thing, we haven't had any of those work out for over a decade either. It's almost like there's a pattern or something.

I mean, I have no problem taking guys there and hoping they turn into something. But that can't be your ONLY strategy.

Mojouw
10-24-2014, 05:19 PM
So where does one get a good nosetackle? The Steelers got Casey Hampton in the first round. Is that what other 3-4 teams do? Let's take a look:

Packers – Letroy Guion (5th Round Pick by the Vikings in 2008). This is after they did not sign their high round previous starter (BJ Raji Round 1 Pick 9 in 2009) to a long term extension because he has been in a steady decline for two seasons now.

49’ers – Ian Williams – UDFA 2011

Jets – Damon Harrison – UDFA 2012

Ravens – Brandon Williams – Round 3 Pick #94 2013

Browns – Ahtyba Rubin – Round 6 Pick #190 2008

Chiefs – Dontari Poe – Round 1 Pick 11 2012

Cardinals – Dan Williams – Round 1 Pick 26 2010

Redskins – Chris Baker – UDFA 2009 by the Broncos; signed by the ‘Skins in 2011

Eagles – Bennie Logan – Round 3 Pick #67 2013

Falcons (not sure if they are 3-4 or 4-3 front but this would be their NT in a 3-4) – Paul Soliai – Round 4 Pick 108 by the Dolphins in 2007. FA signing by the Falcons this March.

Colts – Josh Chapman – Round 5 Pick #136 2012

Saints - Broderick Bunkley – Round 1 Pick #14 in 2006 for the Philadelphia Eagles (important to note that this was to play 4-3 tackle – driving the draft cost up). Acquired by Saints in 2013 as a FA after a stint with the Broncos.

Chargers – Sean Lissemore – Round 7 Pick #234 by Dallas in 2010

Texans – Ryan Pickett – Round 1 Pick 29 by the Rams in 2001 (again important to note that he was drafted as a pass rushing 4-3 end NOT as a NT). Pickett was acquired by the Texans as a FA in response to their preferred starting NT; Lois Nix (Round 3 Pick 83 2014) getting hurt for the year.

That is 14 teams plus the Steelers (total of 15 or around 47% of the league) that trots out a base 3-4. Only 4 of those 15 players were taken in the 1st round (26%). 2 of the 4 1st round picks were taken as primary pass rushers for a 4-3 front and it is only later in their careers, after failing in that role, that they have bulked up and moved inside in a 3-4 look. So that leaves us with two 1st round 3-4 nose tackles and two 3rd round NT's. The rest were taken later than the 3rd or undrafted!

I haven't done the same research for starting LT's but looking at this list - http://overthecap.com/position/left-tackle/ - I don't see nearly as many 4th-7th round picks; let alone UDFA's.

So why would a team pursue a policy of drafting a starting NT in the first 3 rounds of the draft, when they can be found in other places, at the cost of potentially landing a starting offensive tackle? Keeping in mind that tackles are almost exclusively found in the first 2 rounds. There is almost no data to support such a strategy.

I get it if the next Casey Hampton is on the board, but he is a once a decade type talent.

Count Steeler
10-24-2014, 05:38 PM
So McCullers fits just fine from the 6th round. Just let the kid play and develop.

If not, move him to LT and let Beachum play NT. Physically, those would be the better positions for them. Beachum would probably be able to play at NT. Don't think McCullers could pull off LT though.

tube517
10-24-2014, 10:27 PM
Dri Archer's been replaced by LeChong at KR......


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/steelers-blount-replaces-archer-kick-231943216--nfl.html

Dwinsgames
10-24-2014, 11:14 PM
So McCullers fits just fine from the 6th round. Just let the kid play and develop.

If not, move him to LT and let Beachum play NT. Physically, those would be the better positions for them. Beachum would probably be able to play at NT. Don't think McCullers could pull off LT though.

sorry but I believe Beachum would get trucked , he struggles with power moves vs 1 man 2 men would bury him ...

have said it all along Beachum is an all pro caliber LG , his pulling ability is his biggest strength that is nullified at tackle

Count Steeler
10-25-2014, 08:49 AM
sorry but I believe Beachum would get trucked , he struggles with power moves vs 1 man 2 men would bury him ...

have said it all along Beachum is an all pro caliber LG , his pulling ability is his biggest strength that is nullified at tackle

I think with his body shape, big in the ass and thighs, that with another 20-30 pounds he would be tough to move. Plus he would be smart enough to play the position.

But, it will never happen.

TMC
10-25-2014, 01:30 PM
I am all for drafting a left tackle in the first round, if it is the best player available. Last draft, to me, there were 2 LTs that I would have taken in the first and they were Robinson and Matthews. Robinson is now starting at left guard for the Rams (they have Jake Long at LT). Matthews has started every game at LT for the Falcons. The thing is, while some liked Lewan, and maybe he turns out to be worth where he was drafted, I was not settled on him. I guess my point is, if we take a LT in the first, he better be a guy they believe can be a franchise LT, not a maybe or an if, but a guy they are sold on. I do not want a LT just to draft a LT.

And, if there is a NT worthy, I am all for that as well. If it is a corner or a pass rusher or a tight end. I won't rule any out if the right player is there. I also won't advocate against drafting a guy because we have already spent so and so on that position. If the players we spent picks/cash on are failing, we still have a need.

The upside to potentially drafting a true blue chip LT is I think Beachum would be much better if he played guard. So, if you get a true LT, you kick Beachum to LG (as Foster is in his final season under contract), then you have potentially solidified two spot with one pick. You have your center and right guard and just paid for a right tackle (we should all hope he continues to improve). Then, you may be looking at the type of team the Steelers had when they sent out Smith, Faneca, Hartings, traffic cone, and Starks. In essence, you have a line again.

Let me also state this, if they spend a first round pick on a NT, he better be a powerful dude that can move, like Ngata was when he was young or Dontari Poe is now. We really do not need a pure run plugger because the league has changed. To me, if you are going to invest that much in a NT, go for a guy that can clog the middle and get after the passer.

Where I wish the Steelers would get back to making hay, I wish they would use their 4th round and later picks to look at height/weight/speed prospects instead of nabbing statistical outliers. I had no problem with them taking a guy like Blanchflower. Sure, it failed, but he had the height, weight, speed, and physical characteristics of a guy that could make it. Too many times do they draft players at positions where they lack the needed speed or size. Those later picks already have a mountain of odds against them contributing, when you draft guys lacking the physical attributes, you really reduced the odds that they make it.

- - - Updated - - -

And, one guy I would love to see them get all over in the offseason, is Michael Roos. I realize he is having knee surgery, but I think that knocks his price down. When you factor in his age, he could be a bargain. Then, you have a true LT, can still kick Beachum down, and save your draft picks to look at other positions. Granted, you will still need a LT in the future, but I think he has several good years left.

Mojouw
10-25-2014, 02:08 PM
I am all for drafting a left tackle in the first round, if it is the best player available. Last draft, to me, there were 2 LTs that I would have taken in the first and they were Robinson and Matthews. Robinson is now starting at left guard for the Rams (they have Jake Long at LT). Matthews has started every game at LT for the Falcons. The thing is, while some liked Lewan, and maybe he turns out to be worth where he was drafted, I was not settled on him. I guess my point is, if we take a LT in the first, he better be a guy they believe can be a franchise LT, not a maybe or an if, but a guy they are sold on. I do not want a LT just to draft a LT.

And, if there is a NT worthy, I am all for that as well. If it is a corner or a pass rusher or a tight end. I won't rule any out if the right player is there. I also won't advocate against drafting a guy because we have already spent so and so on that position. If the players we spent picks/cash on are failing, we still have a need.

The upside to potentially drafting a true blue chip LT is I think Beachum would be much better if he played guard. So, if you get a true LT, you kick Beachum to LG (as Foster is in his final season under contract), then you have potentially solidified two spot with one pick. You have your center and right guard and just paid for a right tackle (we should all hope he continues to improve). Then, you may be looking at the type of team the Steelers had when they sent out Smith, Faneca, Hartings, traffic cone, and Starks. In essence, you have a line again.

Let me also state this, if they spend a first round pick on a NT, he better be a powerful dude that can move, like Ngata was when he was young or Dontari Poe is now. We really do not need a pure run plugger because the league has changed. To me, if you are going to invest that much in a NT, go for a guy that can clog the middle and get after the passer.

Where I wish the Steelers would get back to making hay, I wish they would use their 4th round and later picks to look at height/weight/speed prospects instead of nabbing statistical outliers. I had no problem with them taking a guy like Blanchflower. Sure, it failed, but he had the height, weight, speed, and physical characteristics of a guy that could make it. Too many times do they draft players at positions where they lack the needed speed or size. Those later picks already have a mountain of odds against them contributing, when you draft guys lacking the physical attributes, you really reduced the odds that they make it.

- - - Updated - - -

And, one guy I would love to see them get all over in the offseason, is Michael Roos. I realize he is having knee surgery, but I think that knocks his price down. When you factor in his age, he could be a bargain. Then, you have a true LT, can still kick Beachum down, and save your draft picks to look at other positions. Granted, you will still need a LT in the future, but I think he has several good years left.

Agree with all that. If you are going to draft a NT in the 1st or 2nd round he has to be a 3 down player. If you "only" need a 2 down run stuffer, 4-6th round is fine.

As for Roos, he could be an excellent "bridge" to the next fixture LT - assuming his knee comes back right. Couldn't agree more that Beachum at LG could massively improve the line. Then you could pull with any of 3 guys (Pouncey, DeCastro, and Beachum) as well as have your 3 interior guys all mobile enough to help out at the second level. With Bell's running style and ability in the short passing game, those 3 could pave the way for a silly amount of yards. Additionally, a LT that can be left on an island, would ease any concerns that exist at RT. You can simply have all your "help" blocking slanted that way. Not to both tackles as it sometimes is now.

Put it this way, a top 15 LT may be the piece that catapults this offense into what many thought it could be this year.