If the Steelers miss the playoffs....?

[zulater]

If the Steelers miss the playoffs for the 3rd straight year do you think there would be some thought given to trading Ben? Remember 2015 is the last year of his current contract. He's in line for a big pay raise, if the team is so weakened that you haven't been able to make the playoffs 3 straight years why would you believe the 4th would be any different? You really want to commit that sort of salary cap space for an aging qb that hasn't advanced you to the playoffs for 3 straight years? Don't you think Bruce Arians and Pittsburgh west, or the Rams, two teams built to win now, but absent a quarterback wouldn't pay a nice price in draft picks to get Ben? Maybe even a player and picks for Ben? Aaron Donald and next year's 1 and 2 for Ben? Remember the Rams are loaded with extra picks from the RG III trade.


Look I'm not trying to start shit. Well maybe a little :heh: I'm a huge Ben fan as anyone on this board knows. But seriously if we lose this week to Cleveland, which many of you think we will ( I don't, I think this will be a Steelers statement win) then if that happens then I think you probably are looking at another non playoff year. And if this team starts going off the rails don't be shocked if the Haley - Ben rift reopens or widens. Maybe even a Tomlin -Ben rift could be exposed.

Also you have to consider that maybe we'd be better off with more of a game manager the next few seasons? I think LeVeon Bell is as good as back as there is in the league right now and for the next 4 or 5 years. Will Ben accept a smaller role in order to let Bell reach his full potential?

Just food for thought folks. Not trying to troll, just think this is something that could crop up this offseason if we were to miss the playoffs again.


But that all said I really don't think we will miss the playoffs. I think we start our run this week.

Ok now I'll step aside and let everyone kill me. :asskick: :chuckle:

[one side only]

Let the Landry Jones era begin. Seriously, I think Ben might want want a change in scenery if he sees the window closing in Pittsburgh. I think the Cardinals would trade a couple of number one picks for him.

[zulater]

Let the Landry Jones era begin. Seriously, I think Ben might want want a change in scenery if he sees the window closing in Pittsburgh. I think the Cardinals would trade a couple of number one picks for him.

The sad thing about Landry Jones is that if this team had recognized what they had in Brian Hoyer at the end of the 2012 season then they likely don;t waste that 4th round pick on Jones. Ryan Clark recognized his talent, said it was obvious he had a major league arm and good qb sense. But somehow it completely escaped our coaching staff?

[Shoes]

I'd rather get rid of Mike, Dick & Todd

[slippy]

sorry Zu, there is the bradshaw era and the ben era and nothing in between. we ride ben until the bitter end! 'nuff said.

[muncher]

the only thing saving tomlin from running this team into the ground is ben. he aint going anywhere.

[MrPgh]

Let the Landry Jones era begin. Seriously, I think Ben might want want a change in scenery if he sees the window closing in Pittsburgh. I think the Cardinals would trade a couple of number one picks for him.

Huh? Somebody still thinks Landry Jones can be an NFL QB?

[venom]

Ben stays until his arm falls off

[one side only]

Huh? Somebody still thinks Landry Jones can be an NFL QB?

Nobody that I know of . . . "Seriously" was the transition word from sarcasm to opinion.

[Steelman]

If we miss the playoffs again, I don't foresee the Rooney's being on board for trading Ben. I think they'd be more likely to make coaching changes.

[MrPgh]

If we miss the playoffs again, I don't foresee the Rooney's being on board for trading Ben. I think they'd be more likely to make coaching changes.

Given Art II's track record, I'm not so sure he should be picking the coach. If he wants to re-evaluate the GM position, fine, but once that's done, let the GM decide what to do with the head coach. Then let the head coach decide what he wants to do with his coordinators and staff.

[Mojouw]

Several things. Trading a franchise QB is never going to be a "win" for the team giving up the QB - unless that QB is in obvious decline and you have a replacement on the team (Favre and Rodgers situation). This is because almost all the resources you get in return, plus your existing draft resources will be expended to trade and secure a high enough pick to get your replacement QB. Say the Steelers finish 8-8 and trade with a 8-8 Rams team and get a 1st and a 2nd in 2015 plus 2016 1st. All those picks are middle of the first round or lower. Likely would need to move into the top 5 to get a franchise QB. So that means the 2015 1st from the Rams, the 2015 2nd from the rams and either the Steelers existing 2015 1st or that future pick from the Rams has to shipped to someone to get into the top portion of the draft. Not a good use of resources.

Hoyer is not that good. He is not a "franchise" QB. He has a mediocre arm at best and much of his stats have come in frantic garbage time or comeback situations. All other NFL teams have had multiple chances at rostering Brian Hoyer. Only the Browns decided to do it because they literally had no one else. Now, Landry Jones stinks, but I will not sit back and let Hoyer be viewed as the "one who got away".

All that being said, never trade Ben unless he tries to do something dumb like play until he is 47. The Steelers do need to keep taking shots at falling "prospects" like Landry Jones so they don't find themselves wandering the AB wilderness again after Ben hangs them up. I dream that in two years or so another Russell Wilson type falls in the draft. Never get that lucky!

[X-Terminator]

NO.

/thread

[fansince'76]

Hoyer is not that good. He is not a "franchise" QB. He has a mediocre arm at best and much of his stats have come in frantic garbage time or comeback situations. All other NFL teams have had multiple chances at rostering Brian Hoyer. Only the Browns decided to do it because they literally had no one else. Now, Landry Jones stinks, but I will not sit back and let Hoyer be viewed as the "one who got away".

This. Hoyer = Derek Anderson redux. And the Browns will probably throw a ton of cash at this one too.

[st33lersguy]

If we trade Ben, it better be an offer Pittsburgh can't refuse along, and by that I mean in the RG3 trade neighborhood like 3 1st round picks and at least another pick probably no lower than 4th. No sane team will agree to that for a QB in his 30s

[fansince'76]

If we trade Ben, it better be an offer Pittsburgh can't refuse along, and by that I mean in the RG3 trade neighborhood like 3 1st round picks and at least another pick probably no lower than 4th. No sane team will agree to that for a QB in his 30s

If the Steelers trade Ben, it better be a swindle on the level of the Dallas/Minnesota Herschel Walker trade.

[Mojouw]

If we trade Ben, it better be an offer Pittsburgh can't refuse along, and by that I mean in the RG3 trade neighborhood like 3 1st round picks and at least another pick probably no lower than 4th. No sane team will agree to that for a QB in his 30s

Even that wouldn't really be enough. The Rams have all that nice high draft pick talent and it is going nowhere because Austin Davis is the best they can do at QB.

Only way to even consider trading Ben is if another Luck type prospect is on the board or another class of 84 or 04 situation where there are multiple legit "franchise" guys in the draft. Since that happens every 20 years or so, I guess we are kinda screwed!

[st33lersguy]

If the Steelers trade Ben, it better be a swindle on the level of the Dallas/Minnesota Herschel Walker trade.

That would constitute an offer they couldn't refuse, to quote Vito Corleone

[fansince'76]

That would constitute an offer they couldn't refuse, to quote Vito Corleone

Not just an offer they couldn't refuse, but an offer that suggests that Colbert quite literally bent another team's GM over his desk and gave it to him dry the way Jimmy Johnson did to Mike Lynn. The kind of deal that literally ruins a NFL GM's career to the point that he'll never get another job in the league again.

[Dwinsgames]

I suggested this last year around december and the vast majority was appalled at the thought ...

it is not a "smart or dumb move " its a lateral move with long term potential gains at minimal $ but it could backfire too ...

no move is without risk ...

but with risk comes potential reward ..

I just dont want Tomlin and Colbert making any long terms franchise moves for this team as they are why we are in the place we are right now

[Count Steeler]

I think the only reason they would trade Ben is if Ben asked to be traded. I really don't think he would do that, but you never know. If this team has promise and growth potential, I think Ben takes a home town discount so that he can retire a Steeler.

If we miss the playoffs again and the FO is in turmoil, then all bets are off.

[ALLD]

Steelers would get too much bad PR. If changes need to be made they could make an unprecedented move and let Tomlin's contract run out before he is ready to retire.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I'd rather get rid of Mike, Dick & Todd

I'm with you on that one.

- - - Updated - - -


Remember the Rams are loaded with extra picks from the RG III trade.

If I'm not mistaken, the picks from the RG III trade have been used.

It's also possible that the Rams might have found their QB of the future already with the way that Austin Davis has been playing.

[HollywoodSteel]

I suggested this last year around december and the vast majority was appalled at the thought ...

it is not a "smart or dumb move " its a lateral move with long term potential gains at minimal $ but it could backfire too ...

no move is without risk ...

but with risk comes potential reward ..

I just dont want Tomlin and Colbert making any long terms franchise moves for this team as they are why we are in the place we are right now

I don't think it's a lateral move at all. In my opinion it's a crazy risk with no obvious reward unless you have someone to rebuild like Belichik or you're staring at an Andrew Luck situation. The logo on the helmet is not magic. Who is it that you trust to rebuild this team? This move just puts us somewhere in the pack praying that something good will happen in the next ten years. This offense has talent that has not been fully exploited. This defense could be a year away from being good enough to take us somewhere. I'd rather ride those odds with Ben than scrap everything for a couple of draft picks and a prayer.

[zulater]

This. Hoyer = Derek Anderson redux. And the Browns will probably throw a ton of cash at this one too.

My point was he was a more than competent back up for Ben had he been kept. The kind of back up that could keep a season afloat if your starter went down for 2-6 games. Had the Steelers brass recognized Hoyer's value perhaps they don't waste a 4th round pick on Landry Jones? My thought was that Jones wasn't drafted to be Ben's replacement so much as he was brought on board to replace Charlie Batch and Byron Leftwich who not coincidentally ended their run with the Steelers in the most recently completed season before Jones was drafted. So ergo recognize the value of Hoyer and don't waste that 4th round pick on a back up qb. Remember Aaron Smith, Ike Taylor, and Larry Foote are all former 4th round picks. So if you think we are better off with Landry Jones than Brian Hoyer as our back up to Ben, good for you.

[zulater]

I think the only reason they would trade Ben is if Ben asked to be traded. I really don't think he would do that, but you never know. If this team has promise and growth potential, I think Ben takes a home town discount so that he can retire a Steeler.

If we miss the playoffs again and the FO is in turmoil, then all bets are off.

The premise of this thread is that we miss the playoffs. Not that I'm predicting it. But judging by the way many on here on picking the Steelers to lose to the Browns this coming Sunday I'm guessing many of you are feeling we will.

So purely Devils advocate, say we miss the playoffs for the 3rd straight season, then do you really see the Steelers committing 90 million for a 4 year contract to a 33 year old qb? Figure at least 50 million guaranteed.

[one side only]

The premise of this thread is that we miss the playoffs. Not that I'm predicting it. But judging by the way many on here on picking the Steelers to lose to the Browns this coming Sunday I'm guessing many of you are feeling we will.

So purely Devils advocate, say we miss the playoffs for the 3rd straight season, then do you really see the Steelers committing 90 million for a 4 year contract to a 33 year old qb? Figure at least 50 million guaranteed.

More likely they don't extend him at all and franchise tag him.

[zulater]

More likely they don't extend him at all and franchise tag him.

So you're talking what, about 24 million for a single year against your cap? Isn't that about what a franchise tag would cost for a qb? Over a 1/4 of your cap tied up in one player, with a 53 man roster.

[one side only]

Isn't Jay Cutler the highest paid at $17.5M? Maybe its 24 mil with an expanded salary cap when Ben would be a free agent. They might like that idea better than a long term deal to a guy who might not play it out. If they don't extend him in the off season, maybe Ben decides to play out the last year of his deal and force their hand.

[Count Steeler]

The premise of this thread is that we miss the playoffs. Not that I'm predicting it. But judging by the way many on here on picking the Steelers to lose to the Browns this coming Sunday I'm guessing many of you are feeling we will.

So purely Devils advocate, say we miss the playoffs for the 3rd straight season, then do you really see the Steelers committing 90 million for a 4 year contract to a 33 year old qb? Figure at least 50 million guaranteed.

Who knows what it will take to keep Ben in the Black and Gold. He is getting to that nervous age, especially with the punishment he has taken. However, it depends what is on the horizon. If a player is available from where we end up in the draft, it would be worthwhile to test the waters.

I think it is going to come down to Ben and what he sees for his future. If there is hope that the Steelers are legitimate SB contenders in the short term, I think he will stay for a discount. If it is a repeat of this year's underwhelming effort, Ben may leave on his own.

[zulater]

Who knows what it will take to keep Ben in the Black and Gold. He is getting to that nervous age, especially with the punishment he has taken. However, it depends what is on the horizon. If a player is available from where we end up in the draft, it would be worthwhile to test the waters.

I think it is going to come down to Ben and what he sees for his future. If there is hope that the Steelers are legitimate SB contenders in the short term, I think he will stay for a discount. If it is a repeat of this year's underwhelming effort, Ben may leave on his own.

And that's why this thread isn't ridiculous. Because if, and this is a big if, one I don't believe will happen in fact, but one that many on this board seemingly do. If we miss the playoffs for a 3rd straight year, then how much do you commit to a qb who failed to get you to the playoffs for 3 straight seasons? Say he demands a Joe Flacco type contract how do you guarantee that sort of money to a 33 year old player who's been hit as often as Ben?

Again if we miss the playoffs this year, I honestly believe all options are going to be put on the table. I still think odds favor Ben finishing his career as a Steeler, but if Ben and Tomlin start staring daggers at each other at the end of a bad season, don't think that Ben might not yearn to join his buddy Bruce out in the dessert.

[X-Terminator]

It seems like this topic comes up every season. The Steelers would be absolute IDIOTS to trade Ben. Why in the world would you trade your franchise QB when there is no one ready to take his place? They will extend him with a 5-year, $100 million contract and get the money he deserves for taking the punishment he has during his career without so much as one complaint. His age is irrelevant - there is plenty of evidence that a QB can still be very productive into his late 30s. For everything he has done for this organization, he deserves to retire as a Steeler.

[Dwinsgames]

I don't think it's a lateral move at all. In my opinion it's a crazy risk with no obvious reward unless you have someone to rebuild like Belichik or you're staring at an Andrew Luck situation. The logo on the helmet is not magic. Who is it that you trust to rebuild this team? This move just puts us somewhere in the pack praying that something good will happen in the next ten years. This offense has talent that has not been fully exploited. This defense could be a year away from being good enough to take us somewhere. I'd rather ride those odds with Ben than scrap everything for a couple of draft picks and a prayer.


highly subjective don't you think ?

1 we have no idea what the offer would be......

2 we have no clue who the player would be

3 we have no idea who the draft picks would produce

4 we have no idea how those players careers pan out

that being said I doubt it happens , Ben is a Pittsburgh guy now , wife has life long roots to the area and now Ben has some pretty long time roots as well , their children where born here and they have grandparents just down the road ( just outside of New Castle in Laurel school district 38 miles from the Burgh )

[salamander]

The Steelers aren't going to trade Ben.

[zulater]

I agree Ben will most likely end his career as a Steeler. I hope he does. And if it weren't for his best buddy Arians being a qb away from a true Super Bowl contender then I might not even believe there's a chance that Ben wont be plying his trade in black and gold next year. But there he is out there. A qb away from being the favorite for the 2015 SB. So to dismiss the possibility out of hand is ridiculous.

[86WARD]

If it were to come down to Ben vs. Tomlin, Tomlin would be the one to go. If not, there would be mutiny not only by the fans, but by the players.

Trading a franchise QB is a terrible idea in any situation. Remember when people wanted to trade Ben for Nnamdi? How would that be looking now? You don't trade franchise QBs...especially a Top-5 guy...

[fansince'76]

My point was he was a more than competent back up for Ben had he been kept. The kind of back up that could keep a season afloat if your starter went down for 2-6 games. Had the Steelers brass recognized Hoyer's value perhaps they don't waste a 4th round pick on Landry Jones? My thought was that Jones wasn't drafted to be Ben's replacement so much as he was brought on board to replace Charlie Batch and Byron Leftwich who not coincidentally ended their run with the Steelers in the most recently completed season before Jones was drafted. So ergo recognize the value of Hoyer and don't waste that 4th round pick on a back up qb. Remember Aaron Smith, Ike Taylor, and Larry Foote are all former 4th round picks. So if you think we are better off with Landry Jones than Brian Hoyer as our back up to Ben, good for you.

I think Gradkowski is a better option at backup than both of them, myself. And good luck getting an Aaron Smith in the 4th round nowadays. Back in 1999 when almost nobody was playing a 3-4, sure.

[zulater]

I think Gradkowski is a better option at backup than both of them, myself.


Agree to disagree. But I think we could both agree the 4th round pick used on Landry Jones could have been better used.

[SteelerFanInStl]

It seems like this topic comes up every season. The Steelers would be absolute IDIOTS to trade Ben. Why in the world would you trade your franchise QB when there is no one ready to take his place? They will extend him with a 5-year, $100 million contract and get the money he deserves for taking the punishment he has during his career without so much as one complaint. His age is irrelevant - there is plenty of evidence that a QB can still be very productive into his late 30s. For everything he has done for this organization, he deserves to retire as a Steeler.

I agree * 1000!

[steelreserve]

The reason we're stuck on .500 isn't Ben, it's a stretch of poor drafting and worse coaching.

Trading him away would be like taking out the engine from your car because the shocks are worn out. Great, now you've still got bad shocks AND you've got no engine.

... and THAT'S the way you go 4-12.

[Mojouw]

Agree to disagree. But I think we could both agree the 4th round pick used on Landry Jones could have been better used.

Not at all. That is totally hindsight. Coming into the draft Landry Jones was viewed as a top 3 round selection by most pre-draft "scouting" that is publicly available. Some even had a 1-2 round slotting. Now, there were disagreements with that, Mayock and many round these parts had him as a 4th round grade. A 4th round draft pick being spent on a guy who has a big time arm (much better "Arm talent" than Hoyer -- to use a dumb-ass Jaworski phrase), is younger than any other QB on the roster, and many had rated as a "steal" at that part of the draft? How is that a bad use of a pick? It only looks bad because, Jones is a mental midget who can't read defenses and gets rattled by pressure like a small child. That was not certain at the time. QB is the most difficult position for NFL teams to identify and develop talent at. Taking a gamble on sliding prospect from a big-time college program...not a terrible idea.

Also, look at who was drafted between Jones and the Steelers next pick, the immortal Terry Hawthorne -- http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=2013&round=round4#round4. Who on that list jumps out as helping this team? Kenny Stills? The variety of back-ups and practice squad players that litter the picks between?

[zulater]

The reason we're stuck on .500 isn't Ben, it's a stretch of poor drafting and worse coaching.

Trading him away would be like taking out the engine from your car because the shocks are worn out. Great, now you've still got bad shocks AND you've got no engine.

... and THAT'S the way you go 4-12.

And going 4-12 is how you get your next franchise qb. ::wink02:

[st33lersguy]

If they do trade Ben, there better be a can't miss franchise QB entering next year's draft (along the lines of Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck), and the Steelers better be willing to lose enough games to get him. It would make some sense if Ben was declining to the point where he wasn't close to the player he used to be, but he isn't, he is still playing at a high level.

[Steelerette]

As much as I'm sick of the way Tomlin hobbles into the season, 3-2 is better than 0-4, regardless of whether we pulled it off by the skin of our teeth. I'm not one of those fans content to say "a win is a win" and ignore the problems - but that's how they count it when they do the math to see who makes the postseason.

If I had to predict anything at this juncture it's that Cleveland will be a tough game but even if we lose it, the team will once again pull together and we should finish around 10-6 - and Tomlin will not be in jeopardy.

That said. If we somehow find ourselves the beneficiary of a Herschel Walker-esque trade offer for Ben, you have to think long and hard whether you believe we have a title contender sometime over the next three seasons - essentially Ben's window. If you don't think so... pull the trigger, but also ask yourself why you are in that position, and don't let any of the persons culpable be involved in choosing how to spend those extra draft picks.

To get back on topic, I wouldn't pull that trigger. Even if we have some surprising losses to round out the season, we have a lot of young people on both sides of the ball with loads of promise, and we forget what a fast football team we have. We are maybe a little bit more depth, plus a left tackle, cornerback, maybe nose tackle, and maybe linebacker, away from having elite potential especially as these young guys we already have develop. Some harsher growing pains than Steelers fans are used to but in the long run no worse off than other teams, and if we play the next offseason or two right... I guess that's a roundabout way of saying that the window for Ben to get another ring isn't necessarily closed here, so you have to keep him on.

[Aussie_steeler]

I could be very wrong but if you look at the contracted players for 2015 and 2016 I can see that the front office is paving the way for giving Ben the keys to Fort Knox.

In 2014 Ben is earning $18.895M and they could absorb all that number under the cap

In 2015 38 players are under contract at $137 Million dollars in cap room. ( Ben at $18M can lower that number with a new contract)

In 2016 24 players are under contract at $83 Million dollars in cap room. ( I know that doesn't include URFA & RFA's coming up)

Troy and Heath may be retired freeing up around $13 million.

The core group of players that the Front office is counting on going forward is

1. Antonio Brown ( $12M)
2. Lawrence Timmons ( $12M)
3. Maurkice Pouncey ($9.6M)
4. Troy Polamalu ($8M)
5. Mitchell, Allen, Miller & Gilbert around $5M each


Add Cameron Heyward, David DeCastro to that group with new contracts and that leaves a lot of space for Ben.


Ben hasn't been restructured as yet (IMO) because:
1. he is being given his money in return for his service, loyalty and restructures
2. The cap number is set to increase again next year allowing for a bigger contract
3. more time equals more QB contracts signed to give both parties a better reference point.

The only way Ben doesn't sign a new contract is if he wants out.

The only way Ben will want out is that he sees no hope of winning with the current FO.

If the ultimatum was given by Ben, The FO goes or I go, I know who I am taking.

[vader29]

I've got 11 reasons why not to trade Ben.

Steelers starting quarterbacks between Bradshaw and Ben from 1983-2003:

Cliff Stoudt
Mark Malone
Bubby Brister
Steve Bono
Todd Blackledge
Neil O'Donnell
Mike Tomczak
Jim Miller
Kordell Stewart
Kent Graham
Tommy Maddox

20 years without a franchise quarterback. I don't want to go through that again.

[86WARD]

I've got 11 reasons why not to trade Ben.

Steelers starting quarterbacks between Bradshaw and Ben from 1983-2003:

Cliff Stoudt
Mark Malone
Bubby Brister
Steve Bono
Todd Blackledge
Neil O'Donnell
Mike Tomczak
Jim Miller
Kordell Stewart
Kent Graham
Tommy Maddox

20 years without a franchise quarterback. I don't want to go through that again.

UGH...

[Steelerette]

Neil O'Donnell was actually pretty good, and we had a system here that worked with him too. Too bad he chased the money and wound up in Jet and Bengal Suck-land. Then again, could he have lived it down his Super Bowl INTs if he had stayed? I always felt it was a shame he finished his career as a backup in TEN - he could have started somewhere.

[86WARD]

Brister had some good moments.
O'Donnell could've had a decent career had he stayed.
Stewart would've been killer had he stayed at WR.
Jim Miller, had he had time to develop and not a part of that QB mess Cowher had, had a whole lot of potential...and if he wasnt a starter, he wouldve been a top notch back up and a trade-able commodity.
Maddox had some moments...was a nice "story."

The rest was utter garbage.

[st33lersguy]

Brister had some good moments.
O'Donnell could've had a decent career had he stayed.
Stewart would've been killer had he stayed at WR.
Jim Miller, had he had time to develop and not a part of that QB mess Cowher had, had a whole lot of potential...and if he wasnt a starter, he wouldve been a top notch back up and a trade-able commodity.
Maddox had some moments...was a nice "story."

The rest was utter garbage.

O Donnell was nothing but the byproduct of a loaded supported cast, an elite O-line, and elite defense, a top notch running game. Super Bowl 30 and when he left Pittsburgh showed how bad he was

[Steelerette]

O Donnell was nothing but the byproduct of a loaded supported cast, an elite O-line, and elite defense, a top notch running game. Super Bowl 30 and when he left Pittsburgh showed how bad he was

Except O'Donnell consistently won the QB Competitions in Hawa'ii, beating out Aikman, Young, etc. His overall gametime talent level wasn't on par with those guys but he was more than mere byproduct... he was an accurate machine who, just somehow couldn't make good adjustments when plays didn't unfold like they were supposed to. Still had the tools to be pretty good though, and on the occasions he did sub in for McNair, there was no dropoff.

[86WARD]

O'Donnell was a dependable starter. He was what he was...kinda like Alex Smith is today.

[zulater]

O'Donnell was a dependable starter. He was what he was...kinda like Alex Smith is today.

Alex Smith is mobile. Neil was a statue.

[zulater]

If Neil would have stayed it wouldn't have surprised me if we had gone to another Super Bowl or two. The 96 and 97 team with Bettis didn't need much in the way of qb help and didn't get it with Tomzcak in 96. Kordell had a good year in 97 but the unsophisticated passing attack he provided never gets you to a Super Bowl.

[Steelerette]

Kordell was so mismanaged. He could have been a great wr/kr/slash... he could have even been a much better QB if we hadn't kept pretending he was supposed to be a standard pocket passer.

[zulater]

Anyone got a change of heart now?

[zulater]

Ben is never taking this team to the playoffs again. Trade him start building for the future. One more year and there wont be any value for him.

[st33lersguy]

Ben is never taking this team to the playoffs again. Trade him start building for the future. One more year and there wont be any value for him.

It would have to be a Herschel Walker type deal, and there better be a can't miss prospect at QB coming up if they trade him

[zulater]

It would have to be a Herschel Walker type deal, and there better be a can't miss prospect at QB coming up if they trade him

What difference does it make? You're not going to the playoffs with him again. Period. You really want to invest 100 million into a qb when the team has no playoff prospects?

[MrPgh]

What difference does it make? You're not going to the playoffs with him again. Period. You really want to invest 100 million into a qb when the team has no playoff prospects?

How about getting rid of the head coach and coordinators first?

[st33lersguy]

What difference does it make? You're not going to the playoffs with him again. Period. You really want to invest 100 million into a qb when the team has no playoff prospects?

He's our best player. Who do we replace him with?

[zulater]

How about getting rid of the head coach and coordinators first?

In our dreams. But you know that's not the Steelers way. We're stuck with Tomlin until he retires.

[MrPgh]

In our dreams. But you know that's not the Steelers way. We're stuck with Tomlin until he retires.

Then the Steelers replace Jacksonville as the NFL's laughing stock.

[steelerdude15]

The Steelers won't trade Ben.

[zulater]

The Steelers won't trade Ben.

What f Ben demands it?

[zulater]

Yeah Hoyer is worse than Gradkowski. :sarcasm:

[tube517]

Why did we never keep Hoyer as a backup?

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk

[fansince'76]

Yeah Hoyer is worse than Gradkowski. :sarcasm:

Derek Anderson made a Pro Bowl as a Brown too. Of course, the Steelers fielding the worst defense they've had in years also has something to do with it.

[zulater]

And Grakowski sucks

- - - Updated - - -


Why did we never keep Hoyer as a backup?

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk

Because our coaches don't recognize talent when it's right in front of their faces. I don't care what anyone says, Landry Jones wasn't brought in to replace Ben, he was brouhgt in to replace Leftwich and Batch. But we already had a viable replacement on the roster. But we cut him. Assholes.

[Mojouw]

Hoyer is not really that impressive. Almost anyone could carve up the Steelers pass defense at this point. Watch when Hoyer plays a competent NFL defense. The Manziel calls will be soon to follow.

Letting Hoer go is the least troubling of the personnel problems on the current roster.
1. NO DBs that can make plays on the outside
2. Lack of a true FS
3. No pass rush from the LB position
4. OT' s are still hot garbage
5. OUtside of AB, WR corps is too young and inexperienced.
6. ANother TE would be more than useful.

I could go on, and around 112 we might get to Hoyer.

[zulater]

Hoyer is not really that impressive. Almost anyone could carve up the Steelers pass defense at this point. Watch when Hoyer plays a competent NFL defense. The Manziel calls will be soon to follow.

Letting Hoer go is the least troubling of the personnel problems on the current roster.
1. NO DBs that can make plays on the outside
2. Lack of a true FS
3. No pass rush from the LB position
4. OT' s are still hot garbage
5. OUtside of AB, WR corps is too young and inexperienced.
6. ANother TE would be more than useful.

I could go on, and around 112 we might get to Hoyer.

The point is we had Batch and Leftwich's replacement on the roster at the end of the 2012 season if we keep Hoyer. But nope, this shitty copaching staff doesn't recognize they have a competent back up for Ben. A guy that culd hold a season together if the starter goes down. But nope, moron coaching staff decides he's not good enough and subsequently we waste a 4th round pick on a positiopn of no need when we had glaring needs all over.

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You draft developmental qb's when you don't have glaring needs elsewhere or when your qb is at the end of his rope. .Neither was the case here, so the choice on Landry was flat out stupid, as was cutting Hoyer.

[Steelerette]

I understand that the team has worse problems than the Hoyer thing, but I don't understand how some people can't admit that we could have just kept Hoyer as our backup.

On the same token it's hindsight to say the Landry Jones pick was bad. Even if Hoyer's your backup, that's what he is - your backup. You want to start developing a real heir to Ben, and Landry was a good draft value when we got him. Now it's true that he hasn't worked out, but still.

[tube517]

Hoyer is not really that impressive. Almost anyone could carve up the Steelers pass defense at this point. Watch when Hoyer plays a competent NFL defense. The Manziel calls will be soon to follow.

Letting Hoer go is the least troubling of the personnel problems on the current roster.
1. NO DBs that can make plays on the outside
2. Lack of a true FS
3. No pass rush from the LB position
4. OT' s are still hot garbage
5. OUtside of AB, WR corps is too young and inexperienced.
6. ANother TE would be more than useful.

I could go on, and around 112 we might get to Hoyer.

I'm not saying Hoyer is Montana. I mean our backups in 2012 were both on social security. I'm just wondering why he was not kept knowing they had the old guys at backup QB. He would be a competent Backup

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk

[steelerdude15]

What f Ben demands it?

Then I'll eat my words, but I highly doubt he'll ask to be traded.

[zulater]

I understand that the team has worse problems than the Hoyer thing, but I don't understand how some people can't admit that we could have just kept Hoyer as our backup.

On the same token it's hindsight to say the Landry Jones pick was bad. Even if Hoyer's your backup, that's what he is - your backup. You want to start developing a real heir to Ben, and Landry was a good draft value when we got him. Now it's true that he hasn't worked out, but still.


No. Tell me the last developmental qb drafted in the 4th round who became a high end starter. 4th round picks have value. But not when you use them for a developmental qb. They should have used the pick on a position of need. Not a qb who you hope doesn't see a down of serious play for 5years.

[zulater]

The 2008 Steeler defense, one of the best defenses in the past 20 years had 2 starters drafted in the 4th round. Aaron Smith and Ike Taylor. Plus longtime Steelers starter Larry Foote was a 4th round pick.

[zulater]

Think we can change the title of this thread from if to when.

[Mojouw]

No. Tell me the last developmental qb drafted in the 4th round who became a high end starter. 4th round picks have value. But not when you use them for a developmental qb. They should have used the pick on a position of need. Not a qb who you hope doesn't see a down of serious play for 5years.

Brady, Wilson, Hoyer (according to this board) were outside the 4th round. Orton went in the fourth round of the draft. Schuab and Foles went at the bottom of the third. Cousins went in the fourth.

All of those guys were originally taken as "developmental" QBs. Some were forced, or forced their way into earlier playing time. Others have fizzled as starters but say decent careers as back-ups. This is just off the top of my head.

The logic on Jones is what good organizations attempt to do. Buy low on talent at positions were that talent is scarce. Look at what the Pats have done with Matt Cassel and Ryan Mallet. Rinse. Repeat. Just because Jones didn't work out, doesn't mean the idea was not sound.

I posed the question in another thread and I will pose it again. Google the draft picks between Landry Jones and Terry Hawthorne. Take an honest look and tell me which of those players means this team still isn't a mess and lacking talent? There were not a ton of good football players taken in that span of picks.

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I'm not saying Hoyer is Montana. I mean our backups in 2012 were both on social security. I'm just wondering why he was not kept knowing they had the old guys at backup QB. He would be a competent Backup

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk

He was not kept because due to the litany of injuries at other positions, it was judged his roster spot was needed elsewhere.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I was busy working for most of the day so I didn't even get to follow the game. I don't even know what to say about this garbage other than PATHETIC!!!

The whole coaching staff and Colbert need to go.

[zulater]

Wilson was a 3rd round pick. Brady was drafted in the 6th round with no expectations. So outside of Brady which of those other guys took their original team to the Super Bowl? And drafting Mallet did the Patriots no good. Could have used that pick for some players to help Brady.

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Brady, Wilson, Hoyer (according to this board) were outside the 4th round. Orton went in the fourth round of the draft. Schuab and Foles went at the bottom of the third. Cousins went in the fourth.

All of those guys were originally taken as "developmental" QBs. Some were forced, or forced their way into earlier playing time. Others have fizzled as starters but say decent careers as back-ups. This is just off the top of my head.

The logic on Jones is what good organizations attempt to do. Buy low on talent at positions were that talent is scarce. Look at what the Pats have done with Matt Cassel and Ryan Mallet. Rinse. Repeat. Just because Jones didn't work out, doesn't mean the idea was not sound.

I posed the question in another thread and I will pose it again. Google the draft picks between Landry Jones and Terry Hawthorne. Take an honest look and tell me which of those players means this team still isn't a mess and lacking talent? There were not a ton of good football players taken in that span of picks.

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He was not kept because due to the litany of injuries at other positions, it was judged his roster spot was needed elsewhere.

So by your thinking we weren't going to carry a back up qb going into OTA's? We used Hoyer's spot on Gradkowski.

[Mojouw]

Wilson was a 3rd round pick. Brady was drafted in the 6th round with no expectations. So outside of Brady which of those other guys took their original team to the Super Bowl? And drafting Mallet did the Patriots no good. Could have used that pick for some players to help Brady.

Fine so QB's outside of 1st round rarely take their teams to the SB. If that is the point you want to argue, great, you win.

If you want to argue the larger, more relevant point, that taking Jones in the 4th round was a waste of resources, then actually look at what I said. There are many talented lower-end starters (I know you want to talk high-end, but that is skewing the debate to such a degree as to make it pointless), solid back-ups, developing prospects, etc that were taken from the latter 3rd of the 3rd round or later in the draft. It is not a "bad" strategy to roll the dice on QB prospects in the 2nd half of the draft. If you "hit" on one, you are set for a long time.

Jones was drafted with little expectations. So a Brady comparison is valid.

Mallet did help the Patriots. He turned a few years of sitting on the bench and looking pretty into an extra draft pick this upcoming year.

As to using the original draft pick, I refer you to the question I have asked you twice, and you refuse to answer. Who else would you have drafted that is anything but a bottom of the roster or practice squad player. I got Kenny Stills WR. That's about it.

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Wilson was a 3rd round pick. Brady was drafted in the 6th round with no expectations. So outside of Brady which of those other guys took their original team to the Super Bowl? And drafting Mallet did the Patriots no good. Could have used that pick for some players to help Brady.

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So by your thinking we weren't going to carry a back up qb going into OTA's? We used Hoyer's spot on Gradkowski.

Hoyer was released on December 8th, prior to Week 14 of the regular season. So the OTA's and Gradkowski issue is totally irrelevant.

[zulater]

Fine so QB's outside of 1st round rarely take their teams to the SB. If that is the point you want to argue, great, you win.

If you want to argue the larger, more relevant point, that taking Jones in the 4th round was a waste of resources, then actually look at what I said. There are many talented lower-end starters (I know you want to talk high-end, but that is skewing the debate to such a degree as to make it pointless), solid back-ups, developing prospects, etc that were taken from the latter 3rd of the 3rd round or later in the draft. It is not a "bad" strategy to roll the dice on QB prospects in the 2nd half of the draft. If you "hit" on one, you are set for a long time.

Jones was drafted with little expectations. So a Brady comparison is valid.

Mallet did help the Patriots. He turned a few years of sitting on the bench and looking pretty into an extra draft pick this upcoming year.

As to using the original draft pick, I refer you to the question I have asked you twice, and you refuse to answer. Who else would you have drafted that is anything but a bottom of the roster or practice squad player. I got Kenny Stills WR. That's about it.

Not a draft guy. Leave that question out there for Dwins.

And the Patriots got what, a 7th rounder for Mallet? That was worth them blowing a 3rd rounder whatever year they took him?

And honestly I don't care if there wasn't anyone great out there to draft. You pick a name at a position of need and get him right on the field playing special teams until he;'s ready to get reps at his position.

Landry was a poor choice. Many said it at the time.

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Fine so QB's outside of 1st round rarely take their teams to the SB. If that is the point you want to argue, great, you win.

If you want to argue the larger, more relevant point, that taking Jones in the 4th round was a waste of resources, then actually look at what I said. There are many talented lower-end starters (I know you want to talk high-end, but that is skewing the debate to such a degree as to make it pointless), solid back-ups, developing prospects, etc that were taken from the latter 3rd of the 3rd round or later in the draft. It is not a "bad" strategy to roll the dice on QB prospects in the 2nd half of the draft. If you "hit" on one, you are set for a long time.

Jones was drafted with little expectations. So a Brady comparison is valid.

Mallet did help the Patriots. He turned a few years of sitting on the bench and looking pretty into an extra draft pick this upcoming year.

As to using the original draft pick, I refer you to the question I have asked you twice, and you refuse to answer. Who else would you have drafted that is anything but a bottom of the roster or practice squad player. I got Kenny Stills WR. That's about it.

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Hoyer was released on December 8th, prior to Week 14 of the regular season. So the OTA's and Gradkowski issue is totally irrelevant.

So they could bring back Batch or Leftwich for a couple weeks. Yeah brilliant move Steelers.

[Mojouw]

Not a draft guy. Leave that question out there for Dwins.

And the Patriots got what, a 7th rounder for Mallet? That was worth them blowing a 3rd rounder whatever year they took him?

And honestly I don't care if there wasn't anyone great out there to draft. You pick a name at a position of need and get him right on the field playing special teams until he;'s ready to get reps at his position.

Landry was a poor choice. Many said it at the time.

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So they could bring back Batch or Leftwich for a couple weeks. Yeah brilliant move Steelers.

If you don't want to have a discussion using facts and logic, and just want to rant and rave -- then I'm going to step aside.

I'm not a draft guy either, but I do watch the rest of the NFL and I have never heard of any of the folks drafted between Jones and Hawthorne doing any more than Jones has to this point. I am likely wrong - not a rare occurrence, but at least trying to talk about stuff rather than yelling randomly.

Also, in regard to cutting Hoyer. He was cut because he was brought in as an emergency QB for two weeks. If I remember correctly, that Steelers team was not totally eliminated from playoff contention until late in the season (last week or so). A fairly logical decision was made that cutting a QB that did not know the offense and was never going to see the field barring a disaster was worth freeing up that roster spot for someone else. But, again, logic may not be your purpose here.

[zulater]

If you don't want to have a discussion using facts and logic, and just want to rant and rave -- then I'm going to step aside.

I'm not a draft guy either, but I do watch the rest of the NFL and I have never heard of any of the folks drafted between Jones and Hawthorne doing any more than Jones has to this point. I am likely wrong - not a rare occurrence, but at least trying to talk about stuff rather than yelling randomly.

Also, in regard to cutting Hoyer. He was cut because he was brought in as an emergency QB for two weeks. If I remember correctly, that Steelers team was not totally eliminated from playoff contention until late in the season (last week or so). A fairly logical decision was made that cutting a QB that did not know the offense and was never going to see the field barring a disaster was worth freeing up that roster spot for someone else. But, again, logic may not be your purpose here.

If they had any clue what Hoyer could be they would have kept him. They had no idea what they had. Ryan Clark said he saw major league arm talent with Hoyer. But it seemingly escaped our wonderful coaches that have your full confidence.

[zulater]

My purpose? Trying to cash in the chip that is what's left of Ben's career. Not wanting him to finish out his career on a 5-7 year non playoff run on proggesivleyworse teams. Not for Ben, though I am a huge fan of his, but for the Steelers, because i don't think we can start a new future until we let go of the past. And in my opinion I think Ben is the past. I don't see much of a scenario where he leads this team deep into the playoffs again. Perhaps I'm wrong? I would love to be. But regardless that's my purpose here.

Now what's yours outside of proving to everyone how above us you are?

[Mojouw]

If they had any clue what Hoyer could be they would have kept him. They had no idea what they had. Ryan Clark said he saw major league arm talent with Hoyer. But it seemingly escaped our wonderful coaches that have your full confidence.
Uggghhh. That is not what I am saying at all. There are two issues here.

1. At the point that Hoyer was cut, his roster spot was better served by a player that would make a tangible weekly contribution to the team's dwindling playoff aspirations. As for Ryan Clark, he has developed a talent to indicate he was always right about everything now that he is paid to talk about the NFL.

2. How good is Hoyer really? He carved up a shitty Steelers squad today and in week 1. Put up some #'s against a bad Titans team. I don't think we need to lament the loss of Brian Hoyer to this roster. What would Hoyer's presence change? I guess the drafting of Landry Jones. So which of the immortal dirtballs drafted between Jones and Hawthorne would fix this team's myriad flaws?

As for Hoyer's talent it "escaped" the Patriots, the Steelers, the Cardinals, and every other team but the Browns. Make of that what you will.

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My purpose? Trying to cash in the chip that is what's left of Ben's career. Not wanting him to finish out his career on a 5-7 year non playoff run on proggesivleyworse teams. Not for Ben, though I am a huge fan of his, but for the Steelers, because i don't think we can start a new future until we let go of the past. And in my opinion I think Ben is the past. I don't see much of a scenario where he leads this team deep into the playoffs again. Perhaps I'm wrong? I would love to be. But regardless that's my purpose here.

Now what's yours outside of proving to everyone how above us you are?

And, I have attempted to respond to that premise. I think it is an intriguing thought problem, I really do. However, I couldn't disagree more on the outcome. I can not envision a scenario where trading Ben helps this team in any way. Period. Any draft picks received as compensation would be expended in moving up to get Ben's replacement. The reason I have latched on to the Hoyer issue, is that I reject the idea that Hoyer is in any way a solution (long term or temporary) to any post Ben scenario.

I'm really trying to follow your logic, but I keep getting lost in the emotional outbursts and assumptions that every move made by this team in the past 5 years has been a brainless mistake of epic proportions. Many bad decisions have been made, but also many good decisions.

[zulater]

ON Hoyer. Real simple I wish that they had kept him to be Ben's back-up. Had they done so and realized that he was an able back-up then I presume, perhaps wrongly, that Landry Jones wouldn't have been drafted. Because it's my belief that Jones was drafted to replace Batch and Lefty, not so much to be Ben's replacement in waiting. Now would that 4th round pick have been used in a way that would be paying dividends today? Don't know. Just wish and think the effort should have been made to shore up an area more in need of immediate help. That's the last I have to say on Hoyer. Hope this clears things up.

[Mojouw]

ON Hoyer. Real simple I wish that they had kept him to be Ben's back-up. Had they done so and realized that he was an able back-up then I presume, perhaps wrongly, that Landry Jones wouldn't have been drafted. Because it's my belief that Jones was drafted to replace Batch and Lefty, not so much to be Ben's replacement in waiting. Now would that 4th round pick have been used in a way that would be paying dividends today? Don't know. Just wish and think the effort should have been made to shore up an area more in need of immediate help. That's the last I have to say on Hoyer. Hope this clears things up.

Got it. This team does traditionally struggle with QB succession planning and development. Tee Martin? Really?

[zulater]

Got it. This team does traditionally struggle with QB succession planning and development. Tee Martin? Really?

Thank you. As far as Ben goes. I know things can change in a hurry in this league. But I fear that we've seen our last playoff run under Ben. It's due t this belief that I think we should consider moving Ben while he still has value.

Imagine going 6-10 for this season and next, and Ben playing out his contract in 2015. Do you franchise tag him? give him 23 million for one year for a team that's in some stage of rebuilding? Or how about this, really let the bottom fall out. Go 4-12 next season and getting a top ten qb to build around.

Maybe the worse thing that could happen is that if Ben props the team up enough to go 8-8 year after year. Stuck forever in the mediocre triangle, then Ben walks away and you're already 3 hard years into LeVeon's career with no real future qb on the horizon.

I'm just saying keeping Ben might actually retard things rather than help.

[Mojouw]

Thank you. As far as Ben goes. I know things can change in a hurry in this league. But I fear that we've seen our last playoff run under Ben. It's due t this belief that I think we should consider moving Ben while he still has value.

Imagine going 6-10 for this season and next, and Ben playing out his contract in 2015. Do you franchise tag him? give him 23 million for one year for a team that's in some stage of rebuilding? Or how about this, really let the bottom fall out. Go 4-12 next season and getting a top ten qb to build around.

Maybe the worse thing that could happen is that if Ben props the team up enough to go 8-8 year after year. Stuck forever in the mediocre triangle, then Ben walks away and you're already 3 hard years into LeVeon's career with no real future qb on the horizon.

I'm just saying keeping Ben might actually retard things rather than help.

The only way I could agree with that plan is if they were going to amass enough picks to get their choice from another Eli, Rivers, Ben trio of prospects in a given draft. While keeping Ben may trap you in mediocrity, trading him and then having to start a Geno Smith level miscast franchise prospect from a bad draft class would lead to a death spiral.

While I think this team is bad, I don't think they are too far away from turning it around.

[KeiselPower99]

The sad thing about Landry Jones is that if this team had recognized what they had in Brian Hoyer at the end of the 2012 season then they likely don;t waste that 4th round pick on Jones. Ryan Clark recognized his talent, said it was obvious he had a major league arm and good qb sense. But somehow it completely escaped our coaching staff?

Actually when Pittsburgh released Hoyer Arizona jumped on him. Before Gradkowski was signed they wanted to bring him back to be the backup but Arizona tagged him as a RFA. Ultimately Palmer and Stanton were brought in he was released and Cleveland jumped on him.

[Steelerette]

I think the coaching has to be more of a problem than the talent on the roster. We have quite the history of having "great drafts" as judged right after draft day, that somehow turn into crap anyways. Who's developing these players? As much as I don't want to open this can of worms - is Colbert really the problem? The one pick this draft that most people could have had a real problem with was obviously a Haley choice... (and for the record I like the Archer pick but if we're doing these stupid things on the field, what does it matter?)

My prediction - if Colbert is canned, he signs on someplace like Buffalo or Oakland and builds a perennial contender... not saying he's perfect but can you honestly say we're doing a good job cultivating our talent? Some players just don't work out to their obvious potential, but it happens with us far too much to be coincidence.

[X-Terminator]

I think the coaching has to be more of a problem than the talent on the roster. We have quite the history of having "great drafts" as judged right after draft day, that somehow turn into crap anyways. Who's developing these players? As much as I don't want to open this can of worms - is Colbert really the problem? The one pick this draft that most people could have had a real problem with was obviously a Haley choice... (and for the record I like the Archer pick but if we're doing these stupid things on the field, what does it matter?)

My prediction - if Colbert is canned, he signs on someplace like Buffalo or Oakland and builds a perennial contender... not saying he's perfect but can you honestly say we're doing a good job cultivating our talent? Some players just don't work out to their obvious potential, but it happens with us far too much to be coincidence.

Considering that 2 whole drafts were pretty much wasted, especially when you consider how few players from those drafts are still playing elsewhere, I'd say Colbert's talent evaluation has been a large part of the problem.

[86WARD]

Alex Smith is mobile. Neil was a statue.

I'm talking more on the basis that they are what they are. ODonnells not gonna kill your team but he's not going to put the game on his shoulders and win it alone. He is what his supporting cast is.

[zulater]

I'm talking more on the basis that they are what they are. ODonnells not gonna kill your team but he's not going to put the game on his shoulders and win it alone. He is what his supporting cast is.

Fair enough.

[plenewken]

You said "IF" they miss the playoffs???? Are you serious? It's pretty much a given at this point that the way this team is currently playing, there's no freaking way they'll get a playoff seat. 2-4 if not 1-5 in our division is a realistic probability at this point.

[zulater]

You said "IF" they miss the playoffs???? Are you serious? It's pretty much a given at this point that the way this team is currently playing, there's no freaking way they'll get a playoff seat. 2-4 if not 1-5 in our division is a realistic probability at this point.

The thread was made before the Browns debacle. Silly me, I held up hope they could win that game. Had they done so, 4-2 isn't a longshot to make the playoffs.

[plenewken]

Sorry, I didn't look at the date of the 1st post. My bad. After a couple of debacles and zero convincing wins (Carolina to me looked like an accident), I don't think they'll do better than 2-4 in the AFC North so the playoffs are pretty much a pipe dream.

[zulater]

If the Steelers miss the playoffs for the 3rd straight year do you think there would be some thought given to trading Ben? Remember 2015 is the last year of his current contract. He's in line for a big pay raise, if the team is so weakened that you haven't been able to make the playoffs 3 straight years why would you believe the 4th would be any different? You really want to commit that sort of salary cap space for an aging qb that hasn't advanced you to the playoffs for 3 straight years? Don't you think Bruce Arians and Pittsburgh west, or the Rams, two teams built to win now, but absent a quarterback wouldn't pay a nice price in draft picks to get Ben? Maybe even a player and picks for Ben? Aaron Donald and next year's 1 and 2 for Ben? Remember the Rams are loaded with extra picks from the RG III trade.


Look I'm not trying to start shit. Well maybe a little :heh: I'm a huge Ben fan as anyone on this board knows. But seriously if we lose this week to Cleveland, which many of you think we will ( I don't, I think this will be a Steelers statement win) then if that happens then I think you probably are looking at another non playoff year. And if this team starts going off the rails don't be shocked if the Haley - Ben rift reopens or widens. Maybe even a Tomlin -Ben rift could be exposed.

Also you have to consider that maybe we'd be better off with more of a game manager the next few seasons? I think LeVeon Bell is as good as back as there is in the league right now and for the next 4 or 5 years. Will Ben accept a smaller role in order to let Bell reach his full potential?

Just food for thought folks. Not trying to troll, just think this is something that could crop up this offseason if we were to miss the playoffs again.


But that all said I really don't think we will miss the playoffs. I think we start our run this week.

Ok now I'll step aside and let everyone kill me. :asskick: :chuckle:

Here's the OP. Read it and outside of my prediction of a "statement win" against the Browns :doh: what's unreasonable about what was presented and how it was presented? And watch as the season unravels how the Ben- Haley- Tomlin chasm opens and grows. And then tell me something big isn't going to have to happen this offseason.

[zulater]

I suggested this last year around december and the vast majority was appalled at the thought ...

it is not a "smart or dumb move " its a lateral move with long term potential gains at minimal $ but it could backfire too ...

no move is without risk ...

but with risk comes potential reward ..

I just dont want Tomlin and Colbert making any long terms franchise moves for this team as they are why we are in the place we are right now

I suggested this last September when the Steelers were mired in their 0-4 start. :lol:

[86WARD]

Cardinals and Palmer talking contract and hope to have it done soon. Guess the price for Ben was too high and the Steelers will just release him to sign Sanchez...seeing that "Ben's Buddy" is spending money on Palmer. But hey, ton of cash they'll save to spend on other holes!

:coffee:

[zulater]

Cardinals and Palmer talking contract and hope to have it done soon. Guess the price for Ben was too high and the Steelers will just release him to sign Sanchez...seeing that "Ben's Buddy" is spending money on Palmer. But hey, ton of cash they'll save to spend on other holes!

:coffee:


What you think your some sort of smart ass?

[Steelerette]

I watched that Cleveland game and, the stat line doesn't come close to telling the whole story -- man, Hoyer is a player. Many of the backup guys we've let get away over the years (Omar Jacobs, etc) have been the right call, but I'd love having that guy as Ben's backup at this point.

[zulater]

Cardinals and Palmer talking contract and hope to have it done soon. Guess the price for Ben was too high and the Steelers will just release him to sign Sanchez...seeing that "Ben's Buddy" is spending money on Palmer. But hey, ton of cash they'll save to spend on other holes!

:coffee:

Sanchez will be starting somewhere next season.

[st33lersguy]

Sanchez will be starting somewhere next season.

Hopefully not in Pittaburgh, unless of course the next Andrew Luck type prospect is entering the 2016 draft

[zulater]

Hopefully not in Pittaburgh, unless of course the next Andrew Luck type prospect is entering the 2016 draft
\
No of course not. Houston or Buffalo would be two good guesses.

[Craic]

You said "IF" they miss the playoffs???? Are you serious? It's pretty much a given at this point that the way this team is currently playing, there's no freaking way they'll get a playoff seat. 2-4 if not 1-5 in our division is a realistic probability at this point.

And this is why I never post stuff like this in the first half of the season. I think we've all been around enough by now that we know this team can turn it around at any time and make a run for the playoffs. And, at this point, if the Browns win Thursday, we're tied for first place in the AFCN. If they lose, we're in second, with two shots at the team that's in first, and a game behind the "best teams" in the AFC.

[zulater]

Is it possible we could be looking at the last 4 games of Big Ben's Steelers career? That if in the last 4 games of this season Ben plays like he has in our last two losses the Steelers will decide the financial investment isn't worth it? That maybe it's time to pursue a game manager type qb and commit the offense to Lev Bell? And use whatever compensation you get back from trading Ben to start rebuilding the defense?


I hate to say it, but I'm losing faith in Ben. I harken back to the old Roy Blount book about the 72 Steeler team "About 3 bricks shy of a load." and think that about sums up the argument about Ben being truly a franchise qb. This might come across as a knock but being totally realistic Ben just falls that little bit short of being a franchise quarterback. And if you're going to slant your game plans to a 60-40 or higher pass - run ratio with this defense backing you you've got to be more consistent than he's been. And I understand the offensive failings of this team don't fall strictly on Ben. The offensive line has also been inconsistent. He clearly hasn't got in proper sync with the new wide receivers. Haley certainly has more than a few shortcomings. But at the end of the day a great qb elevates the play of those around him more than occasionally. Many a Steeler fan will knock Peyton Manning because of his spotty post season play. But hey if stupid ass reality star playing special teams recovers an onsides kick attempt kicked right into his supposed wide receiver hands Peyton almost surely has as many SB rings as Big Ben. But regardless of that, what makes Peyton and Brady elite and Ben not so much is they do in fact elevate the play of the rest of the team around them. They win 10-14 games every year. Not only do the get you to the playoffs, they get you a first round bye more often than not.

I might be wrong but in my opinion a Brady, Manning, Rodgers, and maybe even Brees would have elevated this Steeler team as it is to at least 10-12 wins given the relative ease of our schedule. That our offensive line deficiencies would be alleviated to a large extent by better defensive recognition by the qb. That the communication between the qb and the young receivers would be better at his point because the aforementioned qb's would have demanded it of them. That the defense would have been elevated by the offense setting a relentless pace that the other team would have been forced to match scores with. Thus forcing them into more predictable down and distance situations and pumping up your turnover total.

And don't attack me and say I'm a Ben hater. I love Ben. I think he's borderline Hall of Fame and will eventually get in. I take nothing away from the success we've had with him as the qb. He was the perfect fit for this team from 2004-2012. He was as much or more important than anyone on the team through those years for the sustained success we enjoyed.

But that was then this is now. Anyway bottom line is I think if the last 4 games go like the previous 3 then I think you can safely say that Ben can't win without a very strong defense backing him.
That while he can competently take a turn at the wheel he can't drive the bus over the long haul like the truly elite qb's can. And if he's not truly elite, and can't win with a marginal defense is he really worth paying what the market will demand?

I pray that Ben's play in these last four games will have me back here eating crow. But as of now I would say this just isn't going to work. Things aren't getting better and could easily get worse next year and beyond if a serious course correction isn't made.

[steelreserve]

This team isn't good enough to have a game-manager quarterback. You do that when you are stacked on defense, and we are nowhere close to that. All it would do is make our problems even worse.

Besides, Ben was pretty good when we asked him to play the game-manager role. And considering that even Alex Smith makes $16M a year, along with basically any other quarterback that can stand up, we wouldn't be saving much money bringing in someone else to do it. $2M-$3M a season - can't get much for that, and certainly not worth it to throw some bum out there behind center. How many wins do you think we'd have with Kyle Orton at QB? It probably would not be enough to lead the NFC South.

[fansince'76]

Dump Ben? This defense isn't marginal - it's TERRIBLE, and the secondary is even worse than that. Add to that zero pass rush, which allows the likes of people like Mike Glennon and Brian Hoyer to burn it on a consistent basis, which proves that even scrub QBs in the NFL will chew you up if you give them all frigging day to throw. Sorry, but despite his recent struggles, Ben is among the least of this team's worries right now.

[one side only]

A trade to Arizona would ensure he gets to play at least one more game at Heinz Field. What a homecoming that would be.

[zulater]

This team isn't good enough to have a game-manager quarterback. You do that when you are stacked on defense, and we are nowhere close to that. All it would do is make our problems even worse.

Besides, Ben was pretty good when we asked him to play the game-manager role. And considering that even Alex Smith makes $16M a year, along with basically any other quarterback that can stand up, we wouldn't be saving much money bringing in someone else to do it. $2M-$3M a season - can't get much for that, and certainly not worth it to throw some bum out there behind center. How many wins do you think we'd have with Kyle Orton at QB? It probably would not be enough to lead the NFC South.

Solid points. But I don't necessarily agree. If you've got a good enough back you can run on a stacked defense. We did it with the Bus plenty of times. A physical attack will wear down a defense and keep the other offense off the field. Plus you set up play action, which doesn't require a great qb.

And while Ben was a great game manager, I don't think he would willingly do it at this point in his career. Or maybe it's just that having him there makes it too difficult to commit to the running game. Half of having a great running game is committing to it. And when you have an established passer it's too easy to deviate from the running game at it's first failing.

[zulater]

Dump Ben? This defense isn't marginal - it's TERRIBLE, and the secondary is even worse than that. Add to that zero pass rush, which allows the likes of people like Mike Glennon and Brian Hoyer to burn it on a consistent basis. Sorry, but despite his recent struggles, Ben is among the least of this team's worries right now.

Dump him? No. Use him as a building block? Maybe? At least consider it.

This team needs a nose tackle, one DE, at least one OLB, two safeties, and two CB's. If Ben can't overcome this year's sorry defense chances are he wont be able to next year either.

[GBMelBlount]

Great thread Zu.

However franchise quarterbacks are few and far between.

It is a crap shoot.

I agree with the statement upstream...

Ride Ben til the bitter end.

[fansince'76]

Dump him? No. Use him as a building block? Maybe? At least consider it.

This team needs a nose tackle, one DE, at least one OLB, two safeties, and two CB's. If Ben can't overcome this year's sorry defense chances are he wont be able to next year either.

You're mentioning of Brees underlines the point - the Saints are 5-7 right now despite Brees as well, mainly because their defense might be even worse than ours. The Broncos, Patriots and Packers have far better defenses than ours right now. Hell, Von Miller and DeMarcus Ware alone probably have more sacks than our entire defense at the moment. Manning, Brady and Rodgers are not "doing it alone."

Sure, trade Ben - but get ready for several 3-13/4-12 seasons if you do.

[Dwinsgames]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000438501/article/qb-index-ranking-the-starters-132

[zulater]

You're mentioning of Brees underlines the point - the Saints are 5-7 right now despite Brees as well, mainly because their defense might be even worse than ours. The Broncos, Patriots and Packers have far better defenses than ours right now. Hell, Von Miller and DeMarcus Ware alone probably have more sacks than our entire defense at the moment. Manning, Brady and Rodgers are not "doing it alone."

Sure, trade Ben - but get ready for several 3-13/4-12 seasons if you do.

Yet they beat us in Pgh. Plus even in the seasons the Saints have missed the playoffs it would be hard to accuse Brees of not carrying his share of the load. I mean he's throwing nearly 40 td's a year on average. How many of their losses came about from not scoring 20 or more points? Where with the Saints do you find comparable losses to us losing to the Jets and only scoring a tack on TD at the end?

Lastly, several years of 2-5 win seasons might be what's necessary to bring about the organizational overhaul this team is badly in need of.

[fansince'76]

Yet they beat us in Pgh. Plus even in the seasons the Saints have missed the playoffs it would be hard to accuse Brees of not carrying his share of the load. I mean he's throwing nearly 40 td's a year on average. How many of their losses came about from not scoring 20 or more points? Where with the Saints do you find comparable losses to us losing to the Jets and only scoring a tack on TD at the end?

Which also goes to show that anybody can beat anybody on any given Sunday. The point is, that even an elite QB like Brees isn't going to win with a lousy defense. And the current Steelers defense isn't passable or marginal, it STINKS.

Like I said, trade Ben, and then watch how bad it really gets.

And as far as comparable losses are concerned, here ya go (http://www.neworleanssaints.com/schedule/game/2014/regular11). And division leader or not, with carrot top under center, the Bengals are, and will remain, a pretender.

[GBMelBlount]

Yet they beat us in Pgh. Plus even in the seasons the Saints have missed the playoffs it would be hard to accuse Brees of not carrying his share of the load. I mean he's throwing nearly 40 td's a year on average. How many of their losses came about from not scoring 20 or more points? Where with the Saints do you find comparable losses to us losing to the Jets and only scoring a tack on TD at the end?

Our offense is fine.

I wouldn't touch it except for a TE early next draft.

As we knew coming into the season everything would hinge on our defense.

They are young and inexperienced and the defense is very complex.

So unfortunately they are just not near where they need to be and it may take another year of development for us to really know what we have.

I also still wonder if a 4-3 would better suit our personnel.

[zulater]

Great thread Zu.

However franchise quarterbacks are few and far between.

It is a crap shoot.

I agree with the statement upstream...

Ride Ben til the bitter end.

Trouble is that's probably how it is going to end. Very bitterly.

Hey sorry I see a plane plunging into the sea. Just trying to figure the best way out of this death spiral. Truth is there may not be one? :noidea:

[fansince'76]

Just trying to figure the best way out of this death spiral. Truth is there may not be one? :noidea:

Perhaps Jarvis Jones, Ryan Shazier and Shamarko Thomas all staying healthy and starting to contribute, for starters? Maybe Cortez Allen can begin justifying his contract?

[zulater]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000438501/article/qb-index-ranking-the-starters-132


I'm not questioning whether Ben is really really good. I'm questioning whether he's great. And nothing short of great will see this team back to the playoffs anytime soon. So if you're going to miss the playoffs is there any real advantage winning 8 games as opposed to 4 or 5?

[one side only]

Perhaps Jarvis Jones, Ryan Shazier and Shamarko Thomas all staying healthy and starting to contribute, for starters? Maybe Cortez Allen can begin justifying his contract?

Add Stephon Tuitt and Dan McCullers to that equation, and perhaps the reclamation of Cortez Allen as well. Assuming they add a corner and a tight end in the draft, the Killer B's continue to produce at a high level, Heyward and Timmons continue to be rock solid, and this team's potential seems pretty good. Certainly not bad enough to jettison Roethlisberger.

[zulater]

Perhaps Jarvis Jones, Ryan Shazier and Shamarko Thomas all staying healthy and starting to contribute, for starters? Maybe Cortez Allen can begin justifying his contract?

And maybe unicorn farts will power Al Gore's private jet too? :wink02:


I get ya. And no one will be more heartbroken than me when Ben's time in Pittsburgh is up. But I just don't see it getting better anytime soon. I think a complete rebuilding of the defense is necessary and that we're at least two offseasons worth of almost perfect moves to rectify that side of the ball. So I have to ask will we win again with Ben? Do you weigh his contract into the equation? Do you pay a qb 20 million plus per when the best you can hope to do with him is win 7-9 games? .

- - - Updated - - -

So how much culpability does Ben have in our most recent losses? Would it be fair to say he was more a part of the problem than part of the cure in assessing how he played against the Saints, the Jets, and the Browns in our three most recent losses?

[zulater]

By the way I'm kinda trying to bring about a reverse Karma thing here. I'm hoping for Ben to go out and have the most brilliant 4 game block of his career, and then I'll come back and eat a huge helping of crow with a side of humble pie ala mode. :chuckle:

[tube517]

By the way I'm kinda trying to bring about a reverse Karma thing here. I'm hoping for Ben to go out and have the most brilliant 4 game block of his career, and then I'll come back and eat a huge helping of crow with a side of humble pie ala mode. :chuckle:

I always know you've got that reverse karma thing going on. Sometimes, it works! :chuckle:

[ALLD]

I am thinking there are not available players to draft to fix this team in the next couple of years. We have 4 core players on O and possibly 4 more on D. There might be another 8 second tier players on O, D, & STs combined. That means 36 players needed to be a real contender. A third grade child could do the math and figure out the Steelers' odds.

Without GM & coaching changes we are looking at insanity.

[Dwinsgames]

I get it ... we can build a top notch Def and win 8 games with an " ok" qb

every year a player of Bens age is squandered is huge , not only in missed chances at Lombardi's but also trade value .......

I would listen to offers if I was in charge but I am not in charge ...

I do not trust the current brain trust to make a good enough deal to begin with , nor do I trust what they would do with the picks obtained ...

so If Colbert stays in charge I do not even entertain trading him

[st33lersguy]

Who do we replace him with?

[Count Steeler]

Who do we replace him with?

Whoever has some balls.

[st33lersguy]

Whoever has some balls.

I am talking about a viable option for the future, a legit franchise QB.

[Mojouw]

So #'s may help here. So Brees, Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Luck, and Rivers are all guys that get mentioned as good at making the players around them better and what not. They are also all guys (except Rodgers) that are getting sacked at between 1-3% less than Ben is. The NFL average is 6.4%, Ben is at 6.5%. For comparison, Manning is at 3.3%. Easy to make throws when you aren't getting hit.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Look at the others years and it is similar story. The only "elite" QB that gets hit as much as Ben is Rodgers in GB. Roethlisberger is getting sacked at rates that make David Carr wet his paints and he is still putting up big time passing #'s.

But. Yeah. Trade him. He can't elevate his game when necessary. This team would be lucky to win 4 games in 2013 and 2014 w/out Ben at the helm. Do I think he is the best QB in the league? Of course not, but what would a return need to be?

Or look at it this way. QB's in the league that are as good or better than Roethlisberger. Quick list:

Manning
Brady
Luck
Brees
Rivers
Rodgers
Ryan (if we are feeling generous)

Now look at that same list and pick the guys that wouldn't go to crap behind the same lines as Roethlisberger. Based on comparative performances it looks something like this:

Rodgers
Luck
Rivers (maybe?)
Brady (if we are feeling generous)

Could you imagine Alex Smith or Nick Foles behind this line? C'mon. No one can be serious with this idea, right? If you can't stomach multiple 8-8 years at the fringes of competitive, how do you plan on stomaching 4 win or less seasons as the team lurches from QB to QB?

[Count Steeler]

I am talking about a viable option for the future, a legit franchise QB.

Thought you were referring to Dwins post.
However, same answer. Wouldn't need a QB for another 2 seasons, seeing how it takes 3 years to learn this defense.

[Dwinsgames]

So #'s may help here. So Brees, Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Luck, and Rivers are all guys that get mentioned as good at making the players around them better and what not. They are also all guys (except Rodgers) that are getting sacked at between 1-3% less than Ben is. The NFL average is 6.4%, Ben is at 6.5%. For comparison, Manning is at 3.3%. Easy to make throws when you aren't getting hit.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Look at the others years and it is similar story. The only "elite" QB that gets hit as much as Ben is Rodgers in GB. Roethlisberger is getting sacked at rates that make David Carr wet his paints and he is still putting up big time passing #'s.

But. Yeah. Trade him. He can't elevate his game when necessary. This team would be lucky to win 4 games in 2013 and 2014 w/out Ben at the helm. Do I think he is the best QB in the league? Of course not, but what would a return need to be?

Or look at it this way. QB's in the league that are as good or better than Roethlisberger. Quick list:

Manning
Brady
Luck
Brees
Rivers
Rodgers
Ryan (if we are feeling generous)

Now look at that same list and pick the guys that wouldn't go to crap behind the same lines as Roethlisberger. Based on comparative performances it looks something like this:

Rodgers
Luck
Rivers (maybe?)
Brady (if we are feeling generous)

Could you imagine Alex Smith or Nick Foles behind this line? C'mon. No one can be serious with this idea, right? If you can't stomach multiple 8-8 years at the fringes of competitive, how do you plan on stomaching 4 win or less seasons as the team lurches from QB to QB?


what is the difference in 4 wins and 8 wins ?

to sum it up in as few of words as possible ...

1) Hope ....

2) draft position ....

because either way in our division of the AFC 8 wins will not get you to the playoffs in any year

if I thought we could trade him , obtain a few high selections and parlay those selections into players that are difference makers I would do it .... ( those players would be young and around a decade Ben a few years at best )

but again with Colbert and his scouts & Tomlin making the decisions on how and where those draft selections are spent , I am just not interested

[Mojouw]

what is the difference in 4 wins and 8 wins ?

to sum it up in as few of words as possible ...

1) Hope ....

2) draft position ....

because either way in our division of the AFC 8 wins will not get you to the playoffs in any year

if I thought we could trade him , obtain a few high selections and parlay those selections into players that are difference makers I would do it .... ( those players would be young and around a decade Ben a few years at best )

but again with Colbert and his scouts & Tomlin making the decisions on how and where those draft selections are spent , I am just not interested

I still feel that you give back almost whatever you gain in draft position attempting to get the "next" QB. For every Brady and Wilson taken in rounds 3-6, there are 10 Landry Jones'.

[Dwinsgames]

I still feel that you give back almost whatever you gain in draft position attempting to get the "next" QB. For every Brady and Wilson taken in rounds 3-6, there are 10 Landry Jones'.


without a doubt at some point you have to pay up to get the QB ... however

you can wait on that piece while you get the rest of your ducks in line in terms of a solid def ready to help you cross the threshold ...

if you can run the football and play solid Def on all 3 levels of the field a young QB can take you to the next level ...

if you cant play solid Def at all 3 levels you can Have Ben and Bell and Brown and win 8 games .....


but with this brain trust , how can you make any deals involving high level players and trust the end result ?

[Mojouw]

without a doubt at some point you have to pay up to get the QB ... however

you can wait on that piece while you get the rest of your ducks in line in terms of a solid def ready to help you cross the threshold ...

if you can run the football and play solid Def on all 3 levels of the field a young QB can take you to the next level ...

if you cant play solid Def at all 3 levels you can Have Ben and Bell and Brown and win 8 games .....


but with this brain trust , how can you make any deals involving high level players and trust the end result ?

I still don't know how to answer the brain trust question. If Jones and Shazier turn out to be good to great, then things look good, but if they continue to not impact then....meh.

I laid out my thinking either earlier in this same thread or another one just like it. By the time you pay to get that young QB who can help your revamped D win, you don't really see much from the trade of the franchise QB. Here is the scenario I imagined further up the thread:

Say the Steelers finish 8-8 and trade with a 8-8 Rams team and get a 1st and a 2nd in 2015 plus 2016 1st. All those picks are middle of the first round or lower. Likely would need to move into the top 5 to get a franchise QB. So that means the 2015 1st from the Rams, the 2015 2nd from the rams and either the Steelers existing 2015 1st or that future pick from the Rams has to shipped to someone to get into the top portion of the draft. Not a good use of resources.

I honestly think that the past 2 seasons (2013 and 2014) are the first time this franchise has really committed to any long-term kind of rebuild. Previous to that it was patches and rolls of the dice. That has netted them Jones, Shazier, McCullers, Tuitt, Bell, Wheaton, and Bryant who most see as significant building blocks. Mixed in with those are some good young role players. Now get a good young CB and another pass rusher as well as some better injury luck and suddenly this team doesn't look like such a hot mess.

I am by no means saying that the fixes are easy or even probable, but it is possible. The most troubling part of this is that EVERYTHING has to break their way. They need to hit on almost every player. But again, isn't that how the last championship core was built? However, that was when the current brain trust was a bit younger and hungrier I think.

[Dwinsgames]

I still don't know how to answer the brain trust question. If Jones and Shazier turn out to be good to great, then things look good, but if they continue to not impact then....meh.

I laid out my thinking either earlier in this same thread or another one just like it. By the time you pay to get that young QB who can help your revamped D win, you don't really see much from the trade of the franchise QB. Here is the scenario I imagined further up the thread:

Say the Steelers finish 8-8 and trade with a 8-8 Rams team and get a 1st and a 2nd in 2015 plus 2016 1st. All those picks are middle of the first round or lower. Likely would need to move into the top 5 to get a franchise QB. So that means the 2015 1st from the Rams, the 2015 2nd from the rams and either the Steelers existing 2015 1st or that future pick from the Rams has to shipped to someone to get into the top portion of the draft. Not a good use of resources.

I honestly think that the past 2 seasons (2013 and 2014) are the first time this franchise has really committed to any long-term kind of rebuild. Previous to that it was patches and rolls of the dice. That has netted them Jones, Shazier, McCullers, Tuitt, Bell, Wheaton, and Bryant who most see as significant building blocks. Mixed in with those are some good young role players. Now get a good young CB and another pass rusher as well as some better injury luck and suddenly this team doesn't look like such a hot mess.

I am by no means saying that the fixes are easy or even probable, but it is possible. The most troubling part of this is that EVERYTHING has to break their way. They need to hit on almost every player. But again, isn't that how the last championship core was built? However, that was when the current brain trust was a bit younger and hungrier I think.

there in lies the problem ... thinking you have to pick top 5 to get a QB capable of winning the SB because simply put ... you don't

not if you have a solid Def ....

was Colin Kaepernik ( however the hell its spelled ) a top 5 pick ? I know he didnt win but half the battle is getting there

was Moonball Joe a top 5 pick ?
was Aaron Rogers a top 5 pick ?
Drew Brees ?

the list goes on and on . fact is being a top 5 pick is more of a curse than blessing in terms to how you turn out as a QB ...

[Butch]

Interesting thread. So would those who think we should trade Ben be willing to put up with Tommy Gun, Mark Malone, and a number of others who never panned out? My point being you are more likely to get these guys than to get say Rodgers and you are in turn getting rid of IMHO an elite QB. I just don't see it happening and certainly hope I don't have to live to see it.

Ben has been to 3 Superbowls and won 2, and were in the 3rd one until Mendy fumbled away the ball and the win. He won 15 games his rookie year and won the Suprebowl in his 2nd year. Yes he played crappy in the 1st one, but we wouldn't have been there if he had not played lights out in the playoffs. Mind you we were the 6th seed and played all games on the road in his 2nd year and beat Peyton in Indy...Wow!!! Oh and don't forget the "Tackle"...thank you Ben!!!

Superbowl 43 was Golden in my eyes. All year long Ben brought us from behind in more games than not and did the same in the big game. The game winning drive we go backwards on the 1st play and yet Ben was able to drive the field. Did he have some good receivers? Yes I think both Santonio and Washington were very good, at least very good at that time. Could Ben have been the MVP I think he was just as deserving as Santonio and would put Harrison in their as well. All 3 played key rolls in the win. Could Peyton do that? I don't think he could have done what Ben did. Ben had to hold onto the ball and scramble and pump fake and Peyton doesn't do that. Peyton once stated "there's no trophy for holding onto the ball to long". Brady? Field goal maybe Touchdown? Probably not. He cheated so without cheating would we even mention his name? I doubt it. These two are the media darlings and I think many are just as enamored with them as the press has wanted them to be. I wouldn't want either one over Ben.

Ben had a few bad games no doubt but does that mean he's less elite? Not in my eyes.

It is a shame that the Steelers organization has tried to change Ben into something he's not. They want him to take less sacks and get rid of the ball quicker. I believe this more than anything has affected Ben's Greatness. Getting rid of the ball quick means you don't look as long for the open receiver. Hanging onto the ball is what Ben does Great and it means he is going to be sacked more, but I would rather he hang onto the ball to long and be "Ben" than trying to change him into something he is not. Let him lead this team the way he does it best and let the rest be what it may even if that means sacks shorten his career. Hell for that matter give him control and see what it gets us. Let him call the plays and go no huddle. We get promises of it every year and every year we see less and less.

My 2 cents for what it's worth.

Notice as well that the giants are doing the same with Eli and it is affecting his performance as well. Owners need to learn to leave well enough alone and yes that means the Steelers owners as well.

[Butch]

there in lies the problem ... thinking you have to pick top 5 to get a QB capable of winning the SB because simply put ... you don't

not if you have a solid Def ....

was Colin Kaepernik ( however the hell its spelled ) a top 5 pick ? I know he didnt win but half the battle is getting there

was Moonball Joe a top 5 pick ?
was Aaron Rogers a top 5 pick ?
Drew Brees ?

the list goes on and on . fact is being a top 5 pick is more of a curse than blessing in terms to how you turn out as a QB ...

I will argue that a Great D will win you one maybe, but a Great QB will win you more than one. Tommy Maddox had the same team Ben did and couldn't do it. Trent Dilfer one and done. McMahon one and done. Neil O'Dollar enough said. Great D's won more when the run was more important than the pass.

[fansince'76]

without a doubt at some point you have to pay up to get the QB ... however

you can wait on that piece while you get the rest of your ducks in line in terms of a solid def ready to help you cross the threshold ...

Yeah, I remember them trying that once. And they (and we as fans) waited for over 20 years. And in the meantime it cost us a Super Bowl and multiple AFCCGs at home primarily due to journeyman QBs playing like the journeyman QBs they were when the moment called for a bit more.

[Godfather]

I would have to be in the Trade Ben camp. I suspect I'm still in the minority, but I don't see the benefit of giving him another big contract and I'd rather get something for him than just let him walk.

Even Neil O'Donnell took us to a Super Bowl. Kordell Stewart took us to two AFC Championship Games. Even Mark Malone--MARK MALONE--took us to an AFC Championship Game. So the only reason to have Ben is if he can win another Lombardi for us. I'm not sure that's going to happen, because at least once or twice a year he's going to lay an egg like the one we saw last weekend. And each of the last two seasons, we missed the playoffs by one game.

[steelreserve]

It is a shame that the Steelers organization has tried to change Ben into something he's not. They want him to take less sacks and get rid of the ball quicker. I believe this more than anything has affected Ben's Greatness. Getting rid of the ball quick means you don't look as long for the open receiver. Hanging onto the ball is what Ben does Great and it means he is going to be sacked more, but I would rather he hang onto the ball to long and be "Ben" than trying to change him into something he is not. Let him lead this team the way he does it best and let the rest be what it may even if that means sacks shorten his career. Hell for that matter give him control and see what it gets us. Let him call the plays and go no huddle. We get promises of it every year and every year we see less and less.


This seems to be a leaguewide epidemic, and I don't understand it. When you go into "Protect Your Investment" mode by stripping your star QB of his best weapon, you've already ruined your investment. It happened to Kaepernick, it happened to RG3 - and watch, when Russell Wilson gets his $100M contract, they'll do it to him too and everybody will wonder why he's in a slump. Fortunately, Ben is a good enough QB in his own right that he still makes it work well enough - if he was one of those mobile QBs who are garbage pocket passers, we'd be well on our way to a lottery pick by now.

I never really saw the number of sacks as a "threat" to Ben's long-term health. So you get tackled 20 or 30 extra times a season compared to other quarterbacks, and usually not while people are running especially fast or laying you out with big hits. Big fucking whoop. A lot of guys get knocked on their ass 30 times a game. He gets beat up with little things a fair bit, but I'd take that in a second over making him play with one hand tied behind his back.

[fansince'76]

I would have to be in the Trade Ben camp. I suspect I'm still in the minority, but I don't see the benefit of giving him another big contract and I'd rather get something for him than just let him walk.

Even Neil O'Donnell took us to a Super Bowl. Kordell Stewart took us to two AFC Championship Games. Even Mark Malone--MARK MALONE--took us to an AFC Championship Game. So the only reason to have Ben is if he can win another Lombardi for us. I'm not sure that's going to happen, because at least once or twice a year he's going to lay an egg like the one we saw last weekend. And each of the last two seasons, we missed the playoffs by one game.

And if we wind up with another string of O'Donnells/Stewarts/Malones I KNOW it ain't gonna happen, I don't care how good the D or the running game is. Especially nowadays with defenses being neutered by the rules as much as they have been.

[Butch]

I would have to be in the Trade Ben camp. I suspect I'm still in the minority, but I don't see the benefit of giving him another big contract and I'd rather get something for him than just let him walk.

Even Neil O'Donnell took us to a Super Bowl. Kordell Stewart took us to two AFC Championship Games. Even Mark Malone--MARK MALONE--took us to an AFC Championship Game. So the only reason to have Ben is if he can win another Lombardi for us. I'm not sure that's going to happen, because at least once or twice a year he's going to lay an egg like the one we saw last weekend. And each of the last two seasons, we missed the playoffs by one game.

Ouch!!! All of those horrible memories...thanks.

[Butch]

This seems to be a leaguewide epidemic, and I don't understand it. When you go into "Protect Your Investment" mode by stripping your star QB of his best weapon, you've already ruined your investment. It happened to Kaepernick, it happened to RG3 - and watch, when Russell Wilson gets his $100M contract, they'll do it to him too and everybody will wonder why he's in a slump. Fortunately, Ben is a good enough QB in his own right that he still makes it work well enough - if he was one of those mobile QBs who are garbage pocket passers, we'd be well on our way to a lottery pick by now.

Yes it does seem like it is a leaguewide epidemic, but that it has affected the Steelers is beyond belief. I don't know if I can believe that ownership has allowed the meddling to ruin this team, but if it is true they need to back off!!! Let the coach do his job and if they aren't satisfied fire him.

[Dwinsgames]

to the ones who completely oppose a trade ... ask yourself this will Ben be around when we can again compete or will he be done ??

if he is done ( or a year away ) why keep him instead of using him to reload the rest of the team cause you will then need to get a qb anyways

[MrPgh]

to the ones who completely oppose a trade ... ask yourself this will Ben be around when we can again compete or will he be done ??

if he is done ( or a year away ) why keep him instead of using him to reload the rest of the team cause you will then need to get a qb anyways

You assume the current FO is competent enough to properly "reload" the team?

[Dwinsgames]

You assume the current FO is competent enough to properly "reload" the team?


no . see prior posts in this thread

[Butch]

to the ones who completely oppose a trade ... ask yourself this will Ben be around when we can again compete or will he be done ??

if he is done ( or a year away ) why keep him instead of using him to reload the rest of the team cause you will then need to get a qb anyways

I get what you are saying, but there is no way to answer that question only time will tell. You see teams go from worst to first more often in the NFL than in any other sport. Jim Plunkett was once released the N.E. only to lead the raiders to a lombardi shortly there after. The Steelers once though Rod Woodson was washed up.

So now that I have answered your question. Are you prepared to have 20 years of trying to find the next franchise QB with no guarantees the trades we may get will even pan out? The draft IMHO is a crap shoot where you never really don't know what you might get. Nobody knew who Joe was, but cheered when we got Sweed and Mendy.

[Dwinsgames]

I get what you are saying, but there is no way to answer that question only time will tell. You see teams go from worst to first more often in the NFL than in any other sport. Jim Plunkett was once released the N.E. only to lead the raiders to a lombardi shortly there after. The Steelers once though Rod Woodson was washed up.

So now that I have answered your question. Are you prepared to have 20 years of trying to find the next franchise QB with no guarantees the trades we may get will even pan out? The draft IMHO is a crap shoot where you never really don't know what you might get. Nobody knew who Joe was, but cheered when we got Sweed and Mendy.

and keeping Ben with a team unable to win enough to matter changes the fact that we will be searching for a QB to take over for him when he is done and gone ? keeping him just holds off that search for a few short years of mediocrity ...

but again as said many times by me in this thread I do not entertain trading with the current brain trust in place

[Butch]

and keeping Ben with a team unable to win enough to matter changes the fact that we will be searching for a QB to take over for him when he is done and gone ? keeping him just holds off that search for a few short years of mediocrity ...

but again as said many times by me in this thread I do not entertain trading with the current brain trust in place

No you keep searching for his replacement if you are lucky you get a favre/rodgers situation. In the meantime you hope that he can lead us to glory once again before all is said and done. Hell he did have back to back 6 touchdown games this year and was 33 yards short of setting the NFL record for passing in a game.

I am willing to take my chances that Ben will be Great once again. Trading Ben is a risk I am not willing to take.

[Dwinsgames]

No you keep searching for his replacement if you are lucky you get a favre/rodgers situation. In the meantime you hope that he can lead us to glory once again before all is said and done. Hell he did have back to back 6 touchdown games this year and was 33 yards short of setting the NFL record for passing in a game.

I am willing to take my chances that Ben will be Great once again. Trading Ben is a risk I am not willing to take.

look I get it , and can see both sides of the coin ...

we will not get a Favre / Rogers situation here because we have to many needs to throw 1st round picks at QBs while we still have a 1st round QB on the roster , its wishful thinking ....

[Butch]

look I get it , and can see both sides of the coin ...

we will not get a Favre / Rogers situation here because we have to many needs to throw 1st round picks at QBs while we still have a 1st round QB on the roster , its wishful thinking ....

I unlike you cannot see both sides of the coin. I really don't see the Steelers trading Ben ever, franchise QBs don't grow on trees, and are even harder to replace. I have heard Luck's name thrown around on this thread and ask what the hell has he done to be a part of this conversation??? At least the colts had health considerations when they let Peyton go, and they didn't trade him they let him go to a team of his choice.

No doubt the Favre/Rogers situation is highly unlikely, but not impossible. Wishful thinking...sure and all the more reason that I would rather keep Ben then to give this team over to someone who is yet unproven.

Getting to the Superbowl is not an easy task,Ben has taken us to 3 and we won 2. Neil O'Dollar was 0-1 and he was a more accurate QB than Ben. Marino was 0-1 considered by most to be one of the greatest of all time.

Hell Steeler fans boo'ed Terry off the field his final game, I can't blame him for being bitter. Now some are saying Ben is not elite and we are talking trading him? Take your QBs for granted, and none worth a damn will ever want to come play here.

I think if we proved anything here it is that nothing is guaranteed, and that our success's should not be taken lightly. Keep Ben, stand behind him (BELIEVE!!!), hope and pray that he rights the ship. IMHO Trading him is a desperate move at best.

[Mojouw]

there in lies the problem ... thinking you have to pick top 5 to get a QB capable of winning the SB because simply put ... you don't

not if you have a solid Def ....

was Colin Kaepernik ( however the hell its spelled ) a top 5 pick ? I know he didnt win but half the battle is getting there

was Moonball Joe a top 5 pick ?
was Aaron Rogers a top 5 pick ?
Drew Brees ?

the list goes on and on . fact is being a top 5 pick is more of a curse than blessing in terms to how you turn out as a QB ...

Fair enough. I just strongly feel that the last several years has established a trend of teams prioritizing QBs in the draft more than ever. I feel that if you wait until outside the top 10-12 picks, you are left with guys like Dalton, Glennon, Mecklenberger, etc. These guys may be good to even slightly above average starters, but they will never be the guy to put a team on their backs and win critical games against high caliber competition. That was kinda of the original jumping off point somewhere in the thread.

I guess, at least for me, the only way I want to trade a QB is if I know that I can get a player, already have the player, or can get the draft picks needed to get a player that will equal or exceed the production/ability of the guy I sent out of town. Like a Favre /Rodgers, Manning/Luck, Montana/Young. As already said, this won't happen here, but it is my opinion on trading the most valuable asset in the game -- a championship caliber QB.

[Dwinsgames]

if it is any consolation to you all I do not believe the Steelers trade Ben at any point unless he demands one ..

[zulater]

if it is any consolation to you all I do not believe the Steelers trade Ben at any point unless he demands one ..


I agree. But I still feel that if contract talks go poorly it could at least come up from one or both sides.

And again I'm in no way defaming Ben. (not directed at you dwins) I love the guy. Think he's been a great Steeler. Still is for that matter. But if and underline if, if we miss the playoffs for a 3rd straight year, something has got to give. Your GM, your coach, your qb all become part of the discussion.
And when you further factor in the qb's contract is coming up to it's last year, wheels start turning.

Nothing I've put forth on this thread is outlandish, nor should anyone take offense at it.

[steelreserve]

But if and underline if, if we miss the playoffs for a 3rd straight year, something has got to give. Your GM, your coach, your qb all become part of the discussion.
And when you further factor in the qb's contract is coming up to it's last year, wheels start turning.


Anyone who is not completely blind should see that out of that group, Ben is the only one who's dragging the team in the RIGHT direction, kicking and screaming though it may be. He's proven he's capable of doing what it takes; if anything, others are getting in the way. If ownership would blame him of all people for the team's struggles, Art II must really be a 100% certified idiot, and I mean that in the least kind sense of the word.

Isn't Tomlin's contract coming up at the same time? Seems like that would make it a no-brainer, though I hope they don't even let him continue that long. Next week would be plenty for me.

[86WARD]

The front office isn't smart enough to deal Ben to upgrade this team. They'd just let him play his contract out and watch him walk without getting anything in return. Just like they did with Emmanuel Sanders. Gave up a third round pick to keep Sanders for one year. Smart move.

[Dwinsgames]

The front office isn't smart enough to deal Ben to upgrade this team. They'd just let him play his contract out and watch him walk without getting anything in return. Just like they did with Emmanuel Sanders. Gave up a third round pick to keep Sanders for one year. Smart move.

we will get a 3rd round compensatory selection for his leaving in this coming draft ...point taken none the less

Interesting that Sanders is now a pro bowl caliber WR in just his first year in a new system with Manning at the helm ... ( not making any accusations just find it interesting )

[Mojouw]

we will get a 3rd round compensatory selection for his leaving in this coming draft ...point taken none the less

Interesting that Sanders is now a pro bowl caliber WR in just his first year in a new system with Manning at the helm ... ( not making any accusations just find it interesting )

Manning made Austin Collie look pretty good as well. Point taken though. Sanders likely wasn't maximized in Pittsburgh because his skill set replicates AB's.

[Godfather]

Fair enough. I just strongly feel that the last several years has established a trend of teams prioritizing QBs in the draft more than ever. I feel that if you wait until outside the top 10-12 picks, you are left with guys like Dalton, Glennon, Mecklenberger, etc. These guys may be good to even slightly above average starters, but they will never be the guy to put a team on their backs and win critical games against high caliber competition. That was kinda of the original jumping off point somewhere in the thread.

I guess, at least for me, the only way I want to trade a QB is if I know that I can get a player, already have the player, or can get the draft picks needed to get a player that will equal or exceed the production/ability of the guy I sent out of town. Like a Favre /Rodgers, Manning/Luck, Montana/Young. As already said, this won't happen here, but it is my opinion on trading the most valuable asset in the game -- a championship caliber QB.

The question is whether Ben is still that guy, or if he's no longer able to produce better season outcomes than the Kordozas of the world. If he's still capable of leading us to a championship, great. If he's just going to Brett Favre the season away like he did in 2012 (or like he might have done last weekend), what's the point?

[bayz101]

You could hear a mouse fart in this thread for about a month. Out of the woodworks they come!

[Godfather]

You could hear a mouse fart in this thread for about a month. Out of the woodworks they come!

Well, when they were lighting it up the thread was irrelevant. Now there's a chance we'll miss the playoffs so the topic has become relevant again.

[zulater]

we will get a 3rd round compensatory selection for his leaving in this coming draft ...point taken none the less

Interesting that Sanders is now a pro bowl caliber WR in just his first year in a new system with Manning at the helm ... ( not making any accusations just find it interesting )

This gets back to my earlier point that Ben's about 3 bricks shy of a load when you talk elite. Think about it, has Ben ever been in the year end MVP discussion? No Has he ever been first or second team All Pro? No. Has he ever led the league in any major passing category? Again no.

This doesn't mean he isn't great in his own way. He's Hines Ward to Jerry Rice. He's Jerome Bettis to Jim Brown. You just can't quite put him up there with Manning ( the good one) Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Favre, Marino , Montana etc....

He doesn't consistently elevate the play of those around him the way the creme dela creme do. This isn't an insult. Just an honest observation.

[fansince'76]

Anyone who is not completely blind should see that out of that group, Ben is the only one who's dragging the team in the RIGHT direction, kicking and screaming though it may be. He's proven he's capable of doing what it takes; if anything, others are getting in the way. If ownership would blame him of all people for the team's struggles, Art II must really be a 100% certified idiot, and I mean that in the least kind sense of the word.

This.

The real reason as to why this team might miss the playoffs? Right here (http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2014/12/5/7338505/how-we-are-covering-for-a-terrible-defense). A number of people still seem to simply refuse to see this defense for how bad it really is. To reiterate: it's BAD. As in 5-11-in-1988-and-ranked-dead-last-in-yards-and-points-allowed BAD. We all need to hope that our recent high draft picks on that side of the ball begin to pan out and pan out soon, or we are, in a word, fucked. We also need to hope that our FO stops wasting 3rd rounders on midgets that are project players at best and too damn small to realistically make it in the NFL while continuing to completely ignore the CB position, beginning with the 2015 Draft.

And part of me really doesn't want to see this team make the playoffs primarily because of this putrid defense. For what? To watch Manning or Brady pick it apart and then get knobslobbed some more for how "great" they are? No thanks. A good high school QB could probably make this D look foolish.

And I'm sorry, even remotely comparing Roethlisberger to "Kordoza" Stewart is laughable. If this team had the likes of a Kordell Stewart under center right now, it would be right there in contention with the Raiders for the first pick in the draft next Spring. And we could only wish this team had Roethlisberger back in, say, 2001, when Stewart was the woefully weak link that stuck out like a sore thumb on a team that was basically rock solid everywhere else.

But yeah, let's cut our nose off to spite our face and trade him...

[fansince'76]

we will get a 3rd round compensatory selection for his leaving in this coming draft ...point taken none the less

Interesting that Sanders is now a pro bowl caliber WR in just his first year in a new system with Manning at the helm ... ( not making any accusations just find it interesting )

So I guess it was Ben's fault the dude would have been hard-pressed to catch a cold while he was here? Funny how AB hasn't been "held back" by Roethlisberger's "ineptitude" as a QB.

Yup, all Ben's fault (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000289537/Sanders-can-t-haul-in-two-point-conversion).

Wonder what the excuse du jour will be this year when Manning inevitably gacks in the postseason again...

[Hindes204]

I came in to comment but those last two responses by fansince detailed everything I wanted to say

[vasteeler]

if the defense could just play a little better we wouldnt even be having this conversation. Ben has played his best ball over the last three years. yeah he had a horrible game last week but thats all it was. 1 bad game. some of you guys that want to trade or get rid of him make no sense to me at all

[zulater]

This.

The real reason as to why this team might miss the playoffs? Right here (http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2014/12/5/7338505/how-we-are-covering-for-a-terrible-defense). A number of people still seem to simply refuse to see this defense for how bad it really is. To reiterate: it's BAD. As in 5-11-in-1988-and-ranked-dead-last-in-yards-and-points-allowed BAD. We all need to hope that our recent high draft picks on that side of the ball begin to pan out and pan out soon, or we are, in a word, fucked. We also need to hope that our FO stops wasting 3rd rounders on midgets that are project players at best and too damn small to realistically make it in the NFL while continuing to completely ignore the CB position, beginning with the 2015 Draft.

And part of me really doesn't want to see this team make the playoffs primarily because of this putrid defense. For what? To watch Manning or Brady pick it apart and then get knobslobbed some more for how "great" they are? No thanks. A good high school QB could probably make this D look foolish.

And I'm sorry, even remotely comparing Roethlisberger to "Kordoza" Stewart is laughable. If this team had the likes of a Kordell Stewart under center right now, it would be right there in contention with the Raiders for the first pick in the draft next Spring. And we could only wish this team had Roethlisberger back in, say, 2001, when Stewart was the woefully weak link that stuck out like a sore thumb on a team that was basically rock solid everywhere else.



But yeah, let's cut our nose off to spite our face and trade him...


I missed it. Who compared Ben to Kordell?


Here's my position. It comes down to these final four games. Ben needs to elevate his play. If he does the defense's play will improve. Because if you keep scoring the other team has to keep up. And that's when the defense can force turnovers easier and get sacks etc... The old M.O. of the offense feeding off the defense just isn't going to work with this team. The offense has to be the tone setter.

In our three most recent losses our offense didn't cash in early opportunities. If we're to make a playoff run that can't keep happening. Ben has to take the bull by the horns and stake this team to first half touchdown drives. Overall I would say we have at least 6 offensive starters that are well above average. (Ben, Bell, Brown, Miller, Pouncey, and DeCastro) I think Beachus is at least average. Look around the league. How many teams have 7 comparable offensive starters? We can't keep making excuses. The proof is in the pudding. If this team plays up to it's ability it should be able to drop 30 meaningful points against anyone. (the last 16 points against the Saints were meaningless) 4 games. Offense go to it.
.

- - - Updated - - -


if the defense could just play a little better we wouldnt even be having this conversation. Ben has played his best ball over the last three years. yeah he had a horrible game last week but thats all it was. 1 bad game. some of you guys that want to trade or get rid of him make no sense to me at all

Did Ben have a good game against the Jets? The Browns loss in Cleveland? The Jaguars game?

[fansince'76]

I missed it. Who compared Ben to Kordell?

Post 162 (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/20973-If-the-Steelers-miss-the-playoffs?p=462824&viewfull=1#post462824) - the "Kordoza" comment, to be specific.


Here's my position. It comes down to these final four games. Ben needs to elevate his play. If he does the defense's play will improve. Because if you keep scoring the other team has to keep up. And that's when the defense can force turnovers easier and get sacks etc... The old M.O. of the offense feeding off the defense just isn't going to work with this team. The offense has to be the tone setter.

In our three most recent losses our offense didn't cash in early opportunities. If we're to make a playoff run that can't keep happening. Ben has to take the bull by the horns and stake this team to first half touchdown drives. Overall I would say we have at least 6 offensive starters that are well above average. (Ben, Bell, Brown, Miller, Pouncey, and DeCastro) I think Beachus is at least average. Look around the league. How many teams have 7 comparable offensive starters? We can't keep making excuses. The proof is in the pudding. If this team plays up to it's ability it should be able to drop 30 meaningful points against anyone. (the last 16 points against the Saints were meaningless) 4 games. Offense go to it.

Fair enough. To that end, hopefully Haley also drops the "cutesy" bullshit in general (DHB as the ONLY option on a long pass, anyone?) and in the red zone (Harrison in on goal-to-go, anyone?) and begins to conjure up something like the game plans from the Colts and 2nd Ravens matchups again. With this defense being what it is, this team needs points first and foremost, not for him to feed his ego and try to prove how "smart" he is. You know, for as much shit as Arians caught for questionable playcalling, some of the stuff I've seen out of Haley in recent weeks equals the 2009 Cleveland game in terms of stupidity.

[stillers4me]

Offense go to it.Fair enough. To that end, hopefully Haley also drops the "cutesy" bullshit in general (DHB as the ONLY option on a long pass, anyone?) and the red zone (Harrison in on goal-to-go, anyone?) and begins to conjure up something like the game plans from the Colts and 2nd Ravens matchups again.
Afeakinmen!

[Edman]

Welp. here we go again. The Defense is called upon as a convenient scapegoat for an inconsistent offense and Quarterback.

It's not the Defense's fault Ben is inconsistent.

The Defense didn't cause Ben R. to go on an 8-22 stretch against the Saints.

The Defense didn't play like hot garbage to go 0-4 to start 2013.

The Defense didn't cause Ben to put up 13 points against the 1-8 Jets.

The Defense didn't falter down the stretch to kill 2012.

The Defense didn't throw 4 TD's and 5 INT's in the past three games.

The Defense is it's own issue entirely. They suck, but their suckage is no excuse for Ben's inconsistency.

If the Steelers miss the playoffs, it's because of what killed them the last two years: Inconsistency on Offense AND Defense.

[silver & black]

I've read through this whole thread. What I've taken from it:

It must be nice to bat around trade talk/scenarios for your franchise QB. Please, don't read anything into that.... It's just interesting to read.

As a non Steelers fan, I'll go ahead and put my.02 out there. I agree that Ben is not what we/most would consider an elite QB.... if the criteria for elite is Manning, Montana, Marino, Rodgers, etc.... Having said that, he's still a hell of good QB. Any fan of another team that says they wouldn't want him on their team is full of shit!

He sure would look great in Silver and Black.... and he'd fit the mold, too! :jolly:

[fansince'76]

Welp. here we go again. The Defense is called upon as a convenient scapegoat for an inconsistent offense and Quarterback.

It's not the Defense's fault Ben is inconsistent.

The Defense didn't cause Ben R. to go on an 8-22 stretch against the Saints.

The Defense didn't play like hot garbage to go 0-4 to start 2013.

The Defense didn't cause Ben to put up 13 points against the 1-8 Jets.

The Defense didn't falter down the stretch to kill 2012.

The Defense didn't throw 4 TD's and 5 INT's in the past three games.

The Defense is it's own issue entirely. They suck, but their suckage is no excuse for Ben's inconsistency.

If the Steelers miss the playoffs, it's because of what killed them the last two years: Inconsistency on Offense AND Defense.

You're forgetting the five 4th quarter leads the defense surrendered in 2009 which I'm sure were also Ben's fault in your world. And it's only gotten worse since then.

Whatever. Swap Roethlisberger for Dalton and this team is neck-and-neck with the Raiders right now for the #1 draft pick in 2015. But yeah, keep ignoring how embarrassingly bad this defense has become and heap all the blame on Ben. It's what you do best.

[zulater]

Welp. here we go again. The Defense is called upon as a convenient scapegoat for an inconsistent offense and Quarterback.

It's not the Defense's fault Ben is inconsistent.

The Defense didn't cause Ben R. to go on an 8-22 stretch against the Saints.

The Defense didn't play like hot garbage to go 0-4 to start 2013.

The Defense didn't cause Ben to put up 13 points against the 1-8 Jets.

The Defense didn't falter down the stretch to kill 2012.

The Defense didn't throw 4 TD's and 5 INT's in the past three games.

The Defense is it's own issue entirely. They suck, but their suckage is no excuse for Ben's inconsistency.

If the Steelers miss the playoffs, it's because of what killed them the last two years: Inconsistency on Offense AND Defense.

Some go too far one way. You go too far the other. For example Ben had very little to do with the 0-4 start last season.

[Dwinsgames]

Welp. here we go again. The Defense is called upon as a convenient scapegoat for an inconsistent offense and Quarterback.

It's not the Defense's fault Ben is inconsistent.

The Defense didn't cause Ben R. to go on an 8-22 stretch against the Saints.

The Defense didn't play like hot garbage to go 0-4 to start 2013.

The Defense didn't cause Ben to put up 13 points against the 1-8 Jets.

The Defense didn't falter down the stretch to kill 2012.

The Defense didn't throw 4 TD's and 5 INT's in the past three games.

The Defense is it's own issue entirely. They suck, but their suckage is no excuse for Ben's inconsistency.

If the Steelers miss the playoffs, it's because of what killed them the last two years: Inconsistency on Offense AND Defense.

many will dog this post and call him a Ben hater ....

fine whatever , but it does not change the fact that what was said is correct

[zulater]

You're forgetting the five 4th quarter leads the defense surrendered in 2009 which I'm sure were also Ben's fault in your world. And it's only gotten worse since then.

Whatever. Swap Roethlisberger for Dalton and this team is neck-and-neck with the Raiders right now for the #

1 draft pick in 2015. But yeah, keep ignoring how embarrassingly bad this defense has become and heap all the blame on Ben. It's what you do best.

Conversely if you put Ben on the Bengals they would be shooting for the one seed in the playoffs rather than the 3 or 4 seed they'll ceiling out at with Opie Taylor.

[fansince'76]

many will dog this post and call him a Ben hater ....

fine whatever , but it does not change the fact that what was said is correct

Nope. If anybody thinks he was anywhere near being 100% healthy at any time during the back half of 2012 after Houston and Hali landed on him in that Monday Night game, they're smoking crack. The reason he played? Because Ben @ 60% was still a damn sight better than Batch or Leftwich.

[vader29]

Some go too far one way. You go too far the other. For example Ben had very little to do with the 0-4 start last season.

Edman dislikes Ben so much that whenever the next Steelers starting quarterback has a bad game he will just blame it on Ben. :chuckle:

[zulater]

many will dog this post and call him a Ben hater ....

fine whatever , but it does not change the fact that what was said is correct

A lot of that was given without context. Ben was playing hurt down the stretch in 2012. It's a joke to suggest Ben was even remotely responsible for 0-4 last season. Just to give a few examples.

And Edman has never been objective when it comes to Ben.

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Edman dislikes Ben so much that whenever the next Steelers starting quarterback has a bad game he will just blame it on Ben. :chuckle:

:sofunny:

- - - Updated - - -


Nope. If anybody thinks he was anywhere near being 100% healthy at any time during the back half of 2012 after Houston and Hali landed on him in that Monday Night game, they're smoking crack. The reason he played? Because Ben @ 60% was still a damn sight better than Batch or Leftwich.


QFT:amen:

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Post 162 (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/20973-If-the-Steelers-miss-the-playoffs?p=462824&viewfull=1#post462824) - the "Kordoza" comment, to be specific.



Fair enough. To that end, hopefully Haley also drops the "cutesy" bullshit in general (DHB as the ONLY option on a long pass, anyone?) and in the red zone (Harrison in on goal-to-go, anyone?) and begins to conjure up something like the game plans from the Colts and 2nd Ravens matchups again. With this defense being what it is, this team needs points first and foremost, not for him to feed his ego and try to prove how "smart" he is. You know, for as much shit as Arians caught for questionable playcalling, some of the stuff I've seen out of Haley in recent weeks equals the 2009 Cleveland game in terms of stupidity.

100 agree with all of this.

[Dwinsgames]

Some go too far one way. You go too far the other. For example Ben had very little to do with the 0-4 start last season.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013090809/2013/REG1/titans@steelers#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap20000 00242599&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 1 2013 2 critical turnovers while only scoring 9 points

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013091600/2013/REG2/steelers@bengals#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap2000 000247035&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 2 outplayed by Opie Dalton and put up just 10 points

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013092213/2013/REG3/bears@steelers#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap200000 0249113&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 3... 2 ints and 2 fumbles by Ben while getting thumped by the bears and Jay freakin cutler

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013092906/2013/REG4/steelers@vikings#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap2000 000253076&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 4 ... another big lost fumble and int while the 1 win Matt Cassle led Vikings get the W


so I think Ben had plenty to do with our 0-4 start 9 turnovers in the first 4 games by Ben

[tube517]

Fire Joe Walton!

[fansince'76]

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013090809/2013/REG1/titans@steelers#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap20000 00242599&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 1 2013 2 critical turnovers while only scoring 9 points

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013091600/2013/REG2/steelers@bengals#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap2000 000247035&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 2 outplayed by Opie Dalton and put up just 10 points

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013092213/2013/REG3/bears@steelers#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap200000 0249113&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 3... 2 ints and 2 fumbles by Ben while getting thumped by the bears and Jay freakin cutler

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013092906/2013/REG4/steelers@vikings#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap2000 000253076&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 4 ... another big lost fumble and int while the 1 win Matt Cassle led Vikings get the W


so I think Ben had plenty to do with our 0-4 start

You mean the OL under the expert guidance of Jack Bicknell was blameless? Funny how they turned it around to finish 6-2 after they effectively stripped him of his duties.

As Zu mentioned, context.

Yeah, Ben is good for a couple of clunkers every year, but so is pretty much everyone. Weren't they calling Brady washed up early this season? Also see Peyton vs. the Rams and Rodgers vs. the Saints earlier this season as well.

[zulater]

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013090809/2013/REG1/titans@steelers#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap20000 00242599&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 1 2013 2 critical turnovers while only scoring 9 points

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013091600/2013/REG2/steelers@bengals#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap2000 000247035&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 2 outplayed by Opie Dalton and put up just 10 points

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013092213/2013/REG3/bears@steelers#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap200000 0249113&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 3... 2 ints and 2 fumbles by Ben while getting thumped by the bears and Jay freakin cutler

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013092906/2013/REG4/steelers@vikings#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap2000 000253076&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 4 ... another big lost fumble and int while the 1 win Matt Cassle led Vikings get the W


so I think Ben had plenty to do with our 0-4 start

Offensive line play was worse than atrocious those games. Running game didn't even exist. Heath was a shadow of himself the games he did play in. I've watched every one of those games several times and no qb in the league would have thrived with what was going on with that offense at the time.

[vasteeler]

Did Ben have a good game against the Jets? The Browns loss in Cleveland? The Jaguars game?


i should have said ben played 1 horrible game. in the games you mentioned, no he didnt play great but with a little more defense those games could have been won.

[Dwinsgames]

Offensive line play was worse than atrocious those games. Running game didn't even exist. I've watched every one of those games several times and no qb in the league would have thrived with what was going on with that offense at the time.

9 turnovers by Ben ....

sure the o-line sucked but they where not throwing the football ....

some cause and effect , but we tend to blame the line when Ben stinks , and praise Ben when the line is decent and Ben does well ... when Ben falters we look for other excuses such as the line , the play calling , game plan , the defense , anything but Ben ...

Look I am not saying he is Kent Graham but he is not Jesus either ....

when Ben sucks he costs us games , lets just admit that and give him equal blame as Credit to when he plays well and we win ....


and to be fair Ben makes his line look worse than they are at times ( not always sometimes he bales them out too ) extending plays can make you look bad as well as good .... its a live by the sword die by the sword kind of thing

[fansince'76]

Offensive line play was worse than atrocious those games.

Bicknell was the worst hire ever made by Tomlin, and that's saying something, considering he brought the "Email Porn King" and "Lig-a-shits-the-bed-sky" on board too. See: DeCastro taking out Pouncey for the year on the first offensive series of the season. :doh:

[Butch]

So of all the QBs that are out there and are considered "Elite" who else could do what Ben does behind this line? If there's not an "Elite" one then who? I still say we would be completely irrelevant if it were not for Ben taking over this team when he did. IMHO we are lucky to have him.

[zulater]

i should have said ben played 1 horrible game. in the games you mentioned, no he didnt play great but with a little more defense those games could have been won.

We can agree to disagree here. All things considered I think in our last 3 losses Ben has played as poorly as at any time in his career. Well excep for the Eagle- and Giant fiasco's of 08. It wasn't just his throwing. He wasn't making good reads, missing easy checkdowns, forcing the ball where it ought not to be etc... In Ben's 150 odd starts I would probably rate 75%+ of his games as C+ efforts or above. In these last 3 losses this season I would have graded every one them sub C-. Had Ben had a B- or better game in any of them we would have more wins today.

[fansince'76]

So of all the QBs that are out there and are considered "Elite" who else could do what Ben does behind this line?

Rodgers, and that's about it. Although, the OL is much improved this year now that it is finally getting some proper coaching.

[zulater]

9 turnovers by Ben ....

sure the o-line sucked but they where not throwing the football ....

some cause and effect , but we tend to blame the line when Ben stinks , and praise Ben when the line is decent and Ben does well ... when Ben falters we look for other excuses such as the line , the play calling , game plan , the defense , anything but Ben ...

Look I am not saying he is Kent Graham but he is not Jesus either ....

when Ben sucks he costs us games , lets just admit that and give him equal blame as Credit to when he plays well and we win ....


and to be fair Ben makes his line look worse than they are at times ( not always sometimes he bales them out too ) extending plays can make you look bad as well as good .... its a live by the sword die by the sword kind of thing

5 offensive lineman. Not a single one of them was playing at NFL level early last season. Archie Manning is Terry Bradshaw if he spent his entire career in the right black and gold. And Terry would have been Archie Manning had he inherited his lot. Any qb become a turnover machine when they're getting creamed more often than not when they drop back to pass.

I can be fair. I can tell you the offensive talent was good enough for Ben to perform better in our 3 most recent losses this year. But I can also just as easily say no qb in the league would have done squat shit with our offense at the start of last season. No one! All things considered Ben was pretty damn good in those games. That every single one of them was a play away from a win was a tribute to Ben's competitiveness.

[zulater]

Rodgers, and that's about it. Although, the OL is much improved this year now that it is finally getting some proper coaching.

You see that's why I'm disappointed with some of Ben's recent play. Because while it's true that losing Sanders and Cotchery in the same offseason has been a big set back. And Foster and the right tackle position have been spotty at best. Overall talent wise this offense is built to compete. Some of Ben's recent games are inexplicable to me?

Anyway if Ben can get his shit together and play like he's capable of we'll at least have an entertaining finish, if not a satisfying one. I just want Ben to put up 4 good games and whatever the result I'll be happy.

[zulater]

I'm not a person who subscribes to the belief that all turnovers that derive from the qb are the responsibility of the qb. That all sacks are the fault of the qb.Funny enough I heard all time Steeler great Jon Kolb address this issue last year. When it was suggested to him that many of Ben's sacks come from holding the ball too long he offered up a derisive laugh, and pointed out that no one ever held the ball longer than Terry Bradshaw. (the Steelers passing game of the era was very vertical) But if Terry got sacked Coach Noll and "Bad Rad" (Steelers o-line coach Dan Radokovich) never even considered pointing a finger of blame at Terry. It was always the offensive line's fault.

I understand it's a different game now. But I think we've turned it too far. If a qb gets to the end of his designed drop and there just happens to be two edge rushers waiting on him I probably am going to absolve him if he gets sacked, or even God forbid fumbles the ball or rushes an ill advised pass into coverage. And worse than that is when your offensive line is getting dominated in the "A gap". Go watch and see how Brady and Manning perform when the "A gap" is a complete sieve. Why do you think Brady sucks so bad against the Ravens?

Anyway getting back to the start of the 2012 season. Our offensive line was a joke. Our running game was a rumor. And Ben's favorite safety net Heath Miller was still feeling his way back from injury. Yes Ben turned the ball over. But if Ben had become a little girl and put ball security above all else we wouldn't have even competed in those games. Yeah his high wire act comes with risks. But it also provides rewards. And those rewards were why we scored the points that we did. Had he turtled and protected the ball we would have been lucky to get an occasional first down. :frusty:

Now I got that off my chest.... :lol:

[Dwinsgames]

at the end of the day , we would be over all worse off without Ben , but if the team in totality is not good enough to win consistently enough to matter with him , whats the point at this late date in his career ...

but fear not he is going no place fast , and neither is the team

[zulater]

at the end of the day , we would be over all worse off without Ben , but if the team in totality is not good enough to win consistently enough to matter with him , whats the point at this late date in his career ...

but fear not he is going no place fast , and neither is the team

I'm just going to say one last thing so hopefully you'll get where I'm coming from on this. Had Ben played to the same standard that he personally did in our first four games of 2012 in our 3 most recent losses this year, at least two of those losses from this season would be wins.

Now if anyone can make sense of that...::chuckle: But hopefully you get what I mean.

In other words I'm neither an apologist or a blame Ben first person. I look at the games play by play and make my opinion based on what I see. .

[Dwinsgames]

I'm just going to say one last thing so hopefully you'll get where I'm coming from on this. Had Ben played to the same standard that he personally did in our first four games of 2012 in our 3 most recent losses this year, at least two of those losses from this season would be wins.

Now if anyone can make sense of that...::chuckle: But hopefully you get what I mean.

In other words I'm neither an apologist or a blame Ben first person. I look at the games play by play and make my opinion based on what I see. .

fair enough

[st33lersguy]

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013090809/2013/REG1/titans@steelers#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap20000 00242599&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 1 2013 2 critical turnovers while only scoring 9 points

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013091600/2013/REG2/steelers@bengals#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap2000 000247035&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 2 outplayed by Opie Dalton and put up just 10 points

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013092213/2013/REG3/bears@steelers#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap200000 0249113&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 3... 2 ints and 2 fumbles by Ben while getting thumped by the bears and Jay freakin cutler

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013092906/2013/REG4/steelers@vikings#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap2000 000253076&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore week 4 ... another big lost fumble and int while the 1 win Matt Cassle led Vikings get the W


so I think Ben had plenty to do with our 0-4 start 9 turnovers in the first 4 games by Ben

O-line was non-existent, running game was non-existent for a lot of that stretch, and though the defense did moderately well point total wise the first 2 games, the defense surrendered 30+ points the last 2 while the offense managed to put up 23 and 27 points. The defense also failed to record a turnover in that 4 game span. Putting that 0-4 start entirely on Ben is not fair

[Dwinsgames]

O-line was non-existent, running game was non-existent for a lot of that stretch, and though the defense did moderately well point total wise the first 2 games, the defense surrendered 30+ points the last 2 while the offense managed to put up 23 and 27 points. The defense also failed to record a turnover in that 4 game span. Putting that 0-4 start entirely on Ben is not fair

2 turnovers that equated to 14 Vikings points is hardly the fault of the def ( so did the def give up 34 or 20 ? depends how you look at it I guess )

Bears game 5 turnovers 2 INTs and 2 Fumbles by Ben .... how do you fault the def when 5 offensive possessions end up being 5 extra drives you are now defending instead of scoring yourself ?

those are the 3rd and 4th game you wanted to blame the def for ... I simply can not blame a def for giving up a bunch of points when the offense turns the ball over 7 times in 8 quarters

[Psycho Ward 86]

Rodgers, and that's about it. Although, the OL is much improved this year now that it is finally getting some proper coaching.

And Luck.

[ALLD]

Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
Post 162 - the "Kordoza" comment, to be specific.



Fair enough. To that end, hopefully Haley also drops the "cutesy" bullshit in general (DHB as the ONLY option on a long pass, anyone?) and in the red zone (Harrison in on goal-to-go, anyone?) and begins to conjure up something like the game plans from the Colts and 2nd Ravens matchups again. With this defense being what it is, this team needs points first and foremost, not for him to feed his ego and try to prove how "smart" he is. You know, for as much shit as Arians caught for questionable playcalling, some of the stuff I've seen out of Haley in recent weeks equals the 2009 Cleveland game in terms of stupidity.

BA was just getting too predictable with the Steelers while Haley has turned into bizarre stuff Al Davis would do.

[zulater]

Slight deviation of the thread. If the Steelers miss the playoffs the most likely major change they would make is to "retire" Dick LeBeau. Now try this on for a scenario. Within a week of the season ending the Steelers announce the "retirement" of dick LeBeau. Within the week Cardinals DC Todd Bowles accepts a head coaching job somewhere in the league. (almost a given at this point) What do you think the chances are that Bruce Arians's next phone call is to..... :heh:

[st33lersguy]

2 turnovers that equated to 14 Vikings points is hardly the fault of the def ( so did the def give up 34 or 20 ? depends how you look at it I guess )

Bears game 5 turnovers 2 INTs and 2 Fumbles by Ben .... how do you fault the def when 5 offensive possessions end up being 5 extra drives you are now defending instead of scoring yourself ?

those are the 3rd and 4th game you wanted to blame the def for ... I simply can not blame a def for giving up a bunch of points when the offense turns the ball over 7 times in 8 quarters

For one the defense is to blame for not forcing any turnovers themselves for the first 18 quarters of the season, how does an NFL defense allow that happen. 2nd I will concede after 2nd look that the offense played a big role in the loss, but you can't blame Ben and the offense for allowing slow ass Jay Cutler to scramble for a first down on a 3rd and 10 and allowing the Bears to march down the field for a 74 yard TD with ease right after Pittsburgh got within 4 with the offense rolling and the Steelers in firm control of momentum. As for the Vikings game, you have to put a lot of blame on the defense off the hook. Most of those drives started in Vikings territory and the Vikings gained nearly 400 yards with Matt Cassel throwing for nearly 250 yards with a completion percentage over 60% with a 2-0 TD INT ratio. Also against Cinci, the Steelers surrendered over 400 yards and would have surrendered over 300 yards through the air had Howdy Doody not overthrew a bunch of passes. So the narrative that the defense is blameless is not true, at best they were merely adequate but unclutch

[fansince'76]

And Luck.

:iagree:

When Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees and Ben are retired, Luck is gonna OWN the NFL. He is heads-and-tails above the rest of the young QBs right now.

[st33lersguy]

:iagree:

When Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees and Ben are retired, Luck is gonna OWN the NFL. He is heads-and-tails above the rest of the young QBs right now.

Unless of course another elite QB enters the league in a few years, and with the new rules, it is easier to look elite

[86WARD]

Elite QB's are very, very rare. Franchise QBs are very rare. Good QBs are rare. Then there's everything else. Ben is a franchise QB. Not something you let go unless you have a replacement. ie) Indianapolis Colts. It's almost unfair that they went from Peyton Manning to Andrew Luck.

[Mojouw]

Anyone regretting Hoyer now?

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5463/brian-hoyer

It is almost like once the league got enough film on him, learned his tendencies, strengths, and weakness, he was exposed as an average player at best. Kind of like the career of the guy the Steelers have as a back-up. Anyone else remember when people thought Gradkowski could be the answer for the team in need of a QB?

Not trying to start a knock-down drag out. My only point is that you can find a guy with Hoyer's talent/production almost anytime. How is he far better than Brian St. Pierre? Kelly Holcomb? Tommy Maddox? The list goes on.

Would Hoyer look better at the end of the bench and holding a clipboard than Landry Jones? Absolutely. Jones stinks and seems to be regressing each pre-season. But Hoyer leading the team to the line as the starter? I shudder to think.

[st33lersguy]

Anyone regretting Hoyer now?

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5463/brian-hoyer

It is almost like once the league got enough film on him, learned his tendencies, strengths, and weakness, he was exposed as an average player at best. Kind of like the career of the guy the Steelers have as a back-up. Anyone else remember when people thought Gradkowski could be the answer for the team in need of a QB?

Not trying to start a knock-down drag out. My only point is that you can find a guy with Hoyer's talent/production almost anytime. How is he far better than Brian St. Pierre? Kelly Holcomb? Tommy Maddox? The list goes on.

Would Hoyer look better at the end of the bench and holding a clipboard than Landry Jones? Absolutely. Jones stinks and seems to be regressing each pre-season. But Hoyer leading the team to the line as the starter? I shudder to think.

I agree. He looked much better in the beginning of the season starting a few games than he did down the stretch at the end of the season. Johnny Tebow will be starting any game now

[zulater]

Anyone regretting Hoyer now?

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5463/brian-hoyer

It is almost like once the league got enough film on him, learned his tendencies, strengths, and weakness, he was exposed as an average player at best. Kind of like the career of the guy the Steelers have as a back-up. Anyone else remember when people thought Gradkowski could be the answer for the team in need of a QB?

Not trying to start a knock-down drag out. My only point is that you can find a guy with Hoyer's talent/production almost anytime. How is he far better than Brian St. Pierre? Kelly Holcomb? Tommy Maddox? The list goes on.

Would Hoyer look better at the end of the bench and holding a clipboard than Landry Jones? Absolutely. Jones stinks and seems to be regressing each pre-season. But Hoyer leading the team to the line as the starter? I shudder to think.


I never suggested he was starter material. I think he's a Charlie Batch type. A guy who can go in and keep a season afloat for 2-5 games if your starter has a short term injury. My position was and remains that Landry Jones was drafted to replace Leftwich and Batch. Not to eventually replace Ben. I think we would have been better keeping Hoyer as Ben's back up than draft a developmental back up in the 4th round.

[Dwinsgames]

I never suggested he was starter material. I think he's a Charlie Batch type. A guy who can go in and keep a season afloat for 2-5 games if your starter has a short term injury. My position was and remains that Landry Jones was drafted to replace Leftwich and Batch. Not to eventually replace Ben. I think we would have been better keeping Hoyer as Ben's back up than draft a developmental back up in the 4th round.

in fairness Landry Jones was a 2nd round pick /talent on many draft sites coming from such a prolific passing team as he did many thought he could be a pretty good NFL QB , what was over looked is his inability to read a def when taking a snap under center ( something he did maybe 5 times at Oklahoma ) and his inability to learn the necessary footwork to be a drop back passer ( a necessity in the NFL ) .. those 2 things should be a gimme but not always are as easily learned as it sounds ... Jones has failed at this point to become comfortable doing so and it has more than hindered his ability to develop ... there is no questioning his arm , he has a very good arm ...

trust me I am in no way validating his roster spot as he is undeserving , but he is not a talentless bum , he just lacks the ability to do some mandatory aspects of the pro game that went unrecognized prior to being drafted ...

its hard to say what a guy can't do when you have not seen him try it before pulling the trigger on him ... it did seem to be a steal at the time , but time has proven otherwise ( and I am not one to defend this front office )

[Shoes]

in fairness Landry Jones was a 2nd round pick /talent on many draft sites coming from such a prolific passing team as he did many thought he could be a pretty good NFL QB , what was over looked is his inability to read a def when taking a snap under center ( something he did maybe 5 times at Oklahoma ) and his inability to learn the necessary footwork to be a drop back passer ( a necessity in the NFL ) .. those 2 things should be a gimme but not always are as easily learned as it sounds ... Jones has failed at this point to become comfortable doing so and it has more than hindered his ability to develop ... there is no questioning his arm , he has a very good arm ...

trust me I am in no way validating his roster spot as he is undeserving , but he is not a talentless bum , he just lacks the ability to do some mandatory aspects of the pro game that went unrecognized prior to being drafted ...

its hard to say what a guy can't do when you have not seen him try it before pulling the trigger on him ... it did seem to be a steal at the time , but time has proven otherwise ( and I am not one to defend this front office )

He does indeed, its too bad he won't have the chance to develop, so he should be on the PS imo.

[Mojouw]

For me, I would rather gamble on a guy like Landry Jones developing and reaching his ceiling, then take the "Safe" bet with a guy with limited upside, like Hoyer.

In this case, as will often be the case, it bit the Steelers in the ass. Guys you gamble on for the prospect of them reaching their ceiling also have far lower floors.

But I am a big believer in rolling the dice with the bottom 1/3 of your roster and wish the Steelers more frequently churned theirs.

For instance, I would sign Chris Carter's kid and cut Justin Brown.

[Dwinsgames]

For instance, I would sign Chris Carter's kid and cut Justin Brown.

I would have had the contract drawn up and ready to sign before he made it to the facility and his plane would have been due to land by 11pm Nov. 30 ( he could have signed dec 1 in the nfl )

[fansince'76]

Anyone regretting Hoyer now?

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5463/brian-hoyer

It is almost like once the league got enough film on him, learned his tendencies, strengths, and weakness, he was exposed as an average player at best.

Gee, that sounds familiar...kinda like Derek Anderson's career bell curve...



Hoyer is not that good. He is not a "franchise" QB. He has a mediocre arm at best and much of his stats have come in frantic garbage time or comeback situations. All other NFL teams have had multiple chances at rostering Brian Hoyer. Only the Browns decided to do it because they literally had no one else. Now, Landry Jones stinks, but I will not sit back and let Hoyer be viewed as the "one who got away".

This. Hoyer = Derek Anderson redux. And the Browns will probably throw a ton of cash at this one too.

[zulater]

There's nothing wrong with Derek Anderson as a backup. In small doses he's proven to be player who can go in and help win a game. Saying Hoyer is the same guy is fair enough. Because like Anderson, Hoyer has a place in the league. As a back up.


Landry Jones, not so much.

[Mojouw]

I would have had the contract drawn up and ready to sign before he made it to the facility and his plane would have been due to land by 11pm Nov. 30 ( he could have signed dec 1 in the nfl )

Looks like he has decided to hold a "Pro Day" in January then sign with a team. Colts and Browns are rumored to be very interested.

[steelreserve]

But I am a big believer in rolling the dice with the bottom 1/3 of your roster and wish the Steelers more frequently churned theirs.

For instance, I would sign Chris Carter's kid and cut Justin Brown.


Now there's a guy who just - I mean really - why the fuck is he even on the roster at this point? Even if all the rest of our receivers broke their ankles, I still wouldn't want him out there. We tried that experiment and the results were stupid. So what exactly are we waiting for?

[zulater]

Play at the same level you have for the past two games for the next two games Ben and I'll gladly eat all the crow anyone here cares to serve me. Perhaps it was as simple as correcting his throwing motion? Maybe he just needs that chip planted back on his shoulder? The more he's doubted the better he performs? I couldn't tell you? We all know what he's capable of at his best. Now it's simply a matter of finishing.

[Psycho Ward 86]

For me, I would rather gamble on a guy like Landry Jones developing and reaching his ceiling, then take the "Safe" bet with a guy with limited upside, like Hoyer.

In this case, as will often be the case, it bit the Steelers in the ass. Guys you gamble on for the prospect of them reaching their ceiling also have far lower floors.

But I am a big believer in rolling the dice with the bottom 1/3 of your roster and wish the Steelers more frequently churned theirs.

For instance, I would sign Chris Carter's kid and cut Justin Brown.

Ugh, no kidding. Like with Bills safety Bacarri Rambo who picked off Aaron Rodgers TWICE on Sunday. Think he was undrafted or a 7th rounder and i remember lots of people here clamoring for him

[polamalubeast]

Currently, the Steelers have the following rankings in these major categories:


- 13th in rushing attempts
- 13th in rushing yards
- T20th in rushing TDs
- 13th in YPC

- 19th in points allowed
- 21st in yards allowed
- T30th in yards per play allowed
- T24th in takeaways

- 28th in punting average
- 18th in punt return average
- 28th in kickoff return average
- 30th in average starting field position

[X-Terminator]

I think this thread can be "retired" now.