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View Full Version : Why Exactly is Mike Tomlin Untouchable?



tube517
09-28-2014, 06:02 PM
http://dkonpittsburghsports.com/2014/09/28/column-why-exactly-is-tomlin-untouchable/


Or go right ahead and blame, as Mike Tomlin strongly suggested, the 13 penalties the Steelers took for 125 yards, including six 15-yarders. He called that “unacceptable,” “inexcusable” and “ridiculous” before the first question could reach his postgame podium.

But when you do blame the penalties, be sure you do so in a complete vacuum.

Because that’s what this coach did.

“The bottom line is we’re an undisciplined group,” Tomlin said. “Obviously, we are not coaching it. We are allowing it to happen, so I take responsibility for that.”

Wait, what?

If the Steelers’ coaches aren’t coaching the most dominant trait their players have displayed to this point in the season, then pardon my failure to buy the “obvious,” but who the hell is?

Edman
09-28-2014, 06:05 PM
Untouchable?

He's been (rightfully) getting reamed left and right on this board and others.

st33lersguy
09-28-2014, 06:07 PM
The Rooneys think he's untouchable

Lambert_Loonie
09-28-2014, 06:19 PM
http://prod.www.steelers.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/MediaContent/2009/06/09/12/home_page_105799.jpg

And it fucking sucks.

fansince'76
09-28-2014, 06:23 PM
The Rooneys think he's untouchable

No, they just have a ton of patience. They didn't fire Cowher after three LOSING seasons and four non-playoff seasons in a six-year stretch (1998-2003) and Cowher hadn't won anything in 12 seasons up to that point outside of one AFCCG.

Steelermania
09-28-2014, 06:28 PM
The Rooneys think he's untouchable

I doubt the Rooneys think he's untouchable, but they're not going to be quick to fire a guy who's never had a losing season. People were calling for Cowher's head 15 years ago, and he posted two losing seasons, including a 6-10 season while missing the playoffs 3 straight years, and he didn't have a Super Bowl win on his resume at the time. Well, after missing the playoffs 3 straight years, Cowher righted the ship. Even after slipping back to 6-10 in 2003, mostly because of some bad decisions he made (benching the Bus for Zeruoue, and thinking that he could win with Maddox slinging the ball all over the field), the Rooneys stuck by him, and it paid off. Keep in mind that Cowher only made the playoffs 4 of his last 9 seasons. You can be sure they remember this, and that it will inform their decisions with regard to Tomlin. Their track record over the last 45 years leads me to believe that they know what they're doing. Now, if this team were to slip to 6-10 this year, I think Tomlin would be in a do or die situation next year. Coaches do tend to do their best work fairly early in their regimes. Very few of the coaches who have won big, have done so late in their regimes.

polamalubeast
09-28-2014, 06:39 PM
Cowher was not perfect, but the Steelers have very often been a Super Bowl contender with him....6 AFC title game in 15 seasons is very impressive, and two in it was with Kordell Stewart as QB.

The Steelers were 15-1 in 2004 and winning the Super Bowl in 2005, when Cowher finally had a very good QB...Cowher would probably been in the HOF if Cowher would not retire after the 2006 season

Steelermania
09-28-2014, 07:37 PM
Cowher was not perfect, but the Steelers have very often been a Super Bowl contender with him....6 AFC title game in 15 seasons is very impressive, and two in it was with Kordell Stewart as QB.

The Steelers were 15-1 in 2004 and winning the Super Bowl in 2005, when Cowher finally had a very good QB...Cowher would probably been in the HOF if Cowher would not retire after the 2006 season

I'm not going to give BC a pass for his quarterbacks though. It's not like he didn't pick em. Plus, he didn't want to pick Ben, and was overruled by Dan Rooney.

Cowher had a very good run his first 6 years here, but again, he missed the playoffs 5 of his last 9 years. Had Ben not made that tackle, Cowher would have a very different legacy here, something along the lines of Andy Reid. It's frequently a very thin line between winning and losing. Change a couple of plays, and BC could have three rings. Conversely, the Steelers of the 70's had some close calls during their championship seasons, and easily could have lost to Oakland or Dallas in 75, Dallas, in 78, and either Houston, or the Rams in 79, had a play or two turned out different.

steelreserve
09-28-2014, 08:04 PM
I doubt the Rooneys think he's untouchable, but they're not going to be quick to fire a guy who's never had a losing season. People were calling for Cowher's head 15 years ago, and he posted two losing seasons, including a 6-10 season while missing the playoffs 3 straight years, and he didn't have a Super Bowl win on his resume at the time. Well, after missing the playoffs 3 straight years, Cowher righted the ship. Even after slipping back to 6-10 in 2003, mostly because of some bad decisions he made (benching the Bus for Zeruoue, and thinking that he could win with Maddox slinging the ball all over the field), the Rooneys stuck by him, and it paid off. Keep in mind that Cowher only made the playoffs 4 of his last 9 seasons. You can be sure they remember this, and that it will inform their decisions with regard to Tomlin. Their track record over the last 45 years leads me to believe that they know what they're doing. Now, if this team were to slip to 6-10 this year, I think Tomlin would be in a do or die situation next year. Coaches do tend to do their best work fairly early in their regimes. Very few of the coaches who have won big, have done so late in their regimes.

With Cowher, even when we we were going through a rough patch, you could already tell he was a good coach. Not perfect, obviously, but a good coach.

With Tomlin, he hasn't shown much of anything. He isn't even in control of his coordinators, doesn't look like he's really in control of the team, and definitely looks like he exerts a minimal amount of control over the franchise. Even though nobody here is a fan of them, is that kind of crap going on under Bill Belichick, Jim Harbaugh, Pete Carroll, etc.?

This team is like the motor is running but the car is being allowed to drive itself itself. I guess that worked OK at the start when we were already on course, but the longer it goes on, the farther away it veers, and we're currently bumping through a corn field somewhere 300 yards off the road. We need a real coach, not a guy who talks a good gane and then lets the team not have its shit together.

86WARD
09-28-2014, 08:11 PM
I'd take any of the three coaches mentioned in a second. Belichick is flat out awesome. Tomlin is flat out garbage and it's really starting to show.

MrPgh
09-28-2014, 08:16 PM
I doubt the Rooneys think he's untouchable, but they're not going to be quick to fire a guy who's never had a losing season. People were calling for Cowher's head 15 years ago, and he posted two losing seasons, including a 6-10 season while missing the playoffs 3 straight years, and he didn't have a Super Bowl win on his resume at the time. Well, after missing the playoffs 3 straight years, Cowher righted the ship. Even after slipping back to 6-10 in 2003, mostly because of some bad decisions he made (benching the Bus for Zeruoue, and thinking that he could win with Maddox slinging the ball all over the field), the Rooneys stuck by him, and it paid off. Keep in mind that Cowher only made the playoffs 4 of his last 9 seasons. You can be sure they remember this, and that it will inform their decisions with regard to Tomlin. Their track record over the last 45 years leads me to believe that they know what they're doing. Now, if this team were to slip to 6-10 this year, I think Tomlin would be in a do or die situation next year. Coaches do tend to do their best work fairly early in their regimes. Very few of the coaches who have won big, have done so late in their regimes.

Don't give Art II credit for what Dan has accomplished. Football acumen isn't passed along genetically. So far Art II has shown he is badly lacking in that department.

X-Terminator
09-28-2014, 09:56 PM
I'd take any of the three coaches mentioned in a second. Belichick is flat out awesome. Tomlin is flat out garbage and it's really starting to show.

But Belichick was garbage before going to the Patriots. Same for Pete Carroll flaming out in his first stint as an NFL HC.

Just saying.

steelerdude15
09-28-2014, 10:06 PM
Why is Mike untouchable? It's because the Rooney's are patient with their coaching as noted above.

Shoes
09-28-2014, 10:12 PM
Why is Mike untouchable? It's because the Rooney's are patient with their coaching as noted above.

and they also give their full support to Roger Goodell. We'll see how patient Art II is and how things really change when Dan is gone.

steelerdude15
09-28-2014, 10:13 PM
and they also give their full support to Roger Goodell. We'll see how patient Art II is and how things really change when Dan is gone.

As do the rest of the owners.

Shoes
09-28-2014, 10:16 PM
As do the rest of the owners.


Thats correct..it all comes down to business.

steelerdude15
09-28-2014, 10:18 PM
Thats correct..it all comes down to business.

And you know the owner's are making a killing with Goodell in charge.

Mojouw
09-28-2014, 10:59 PM
With Cowher, even when we we were going through a rough patch, you could already tell he was a good coach. Not perfect, obviously, but a good coach.

With Tomlin, he hasn't shown much of anything. He isn't even in control of his coordinators, doesn't look like he's really in control of the team, and definitely looks like he exerts a minimal amount of control over the franchise. Even though nobody here is a fan of them, is that kind of crap going on under Bill Belichick, Jim Harbaugh, Pete Carroll, etc.?

This team is like the motor is running but the car is being allowed to drive itself itself. I guess that worked OK at the start when we were already on course, but the longer it goes on, the farther away it veers, and we're currently bumping through a corn field somewhere 300 yards off the road. We need a real coach, not a guy who talks a good gane and then lets the team not have its shit together.

Helps that all three of those coaches have more talented rosters than the Pittsburgh Steelers. What did Caroll and Bellicheck do in their first stints when they had talent deficient rosters.

Look, I am not a huge Tomlin fan at the moment. I never really liked Haley's offense, and Lebeau is Lebeau. No 70 some year old man is going to change. But everyone is acting like this team is a decent head coach away from contending for a SB. They are not. Ben, AB, Bell, Heyward, Timmons and 2 of 5 offensive linemen are of that caliber. That is 7 out of 53. Rest of the roster is league average at best.

Name me three defenders from this team that start on the Pats, 49'ers, Broncos, Seahawks, or another legit SB contender right now?

zulater
09-29-2014, 01:20 AM
No, they just have a ton of patience. They didn't fire Cowher after three LOSING seasons and four non-playoff seasons in a six-year stretch (1998-2003) and Cowher hadn't won anything in 12 seasons up to that point outside of one AFCCG.

A big difference.


Cowher wasn't wasting the prime years of the franchise best qb ever in his non playoff years.

jb500ex
09-29-2014, 05:51 AM
A big difference.


Cowher wasn't wasting the prime years of the franchise best qb ever in his non playoff years.bingo there you have it

GBMelBlount
09-29-2014, 05:53 AM
With an average QB we might be 4-12

MrPgh
09-29-2014, 06:19 AM
A big difference.


Cowher wasn't wasting the prime years of the franchise best qb ever in his non playoff years.

THISx1000000000000!

What happened in the late 90's doesn't apply to what's happening now. The Steelers didn't have a franchise QB in his prime back then. Now they do, and their wasting his best years because of an antiquated tradition. I don't care that Noll and Cowher were kept for a long time, I just want to see the Steelers be competitive while their best player is still in his prime.

Hawkman
09-29-2014, 06:35 AM
So you are saying......that the coolest play.......thrown to the surest hands in the NFL, and dropped is MT fault?? How about we not get face mask penalties.....I think MT wants that to stop!! We are the most penalized team and I'm sure we have the most FM penalties...(5 at least in the last two games).......Are you thinking that MT is coaching face mask??? Give me a fat hairy break!!

Steelermania
09-29-2014, 08:43 AM
A big difference.


Cowher wasn't wasting the prime years of the franchise best qb ever in his non playoff years.

Nah, he was wasting the prime years of Jerome Bettis instead.

fansince'76
09-29-2014, 09:32 AM
A big difference.


Cowher wasn't wasting the prime years of the franchise best qb ever in his non playoff years.

No, he was effectively pissing away the Bus' prime instead with his stubborn insistence on sticking with Kordell Stewart for five years. Cowher wouldn't know what to do with a franchise QB, which is part of my point.

And, once again, if it were left entirely up to Cowher, we would have never drafted that "franchise best-ever QB" in the first place...

fansince'76
09-29-2014, 09:33 AM
Nah, he was wasting the prime years of Jerome Bettis instead.

Beat me to it. "Kordell Stewart is my guy!"

polamalubeast
09-29-2014, 10:01 AM
No, he was effectively pissing away the Bus' prime instead with his stubborn insistence on sticking with Kordell Stewart for five years. Cowher wouldn't know what to do with a franchise QB, which is part of my point.

And, once again, if it were left entirely up to Cowher, we would have never drafted that "franchise best-ever QB" in the first place...

I disagree with that.

Cowher had a 15-1 season in 2004 and a Super Bowl in 2005 when Cowher finally had a franchise QB

Mojouw
09-29-2014, 10:07 AM
I disagree with that.

Cowher had a 15-1 season in 2004 and a Super Bowl in 2005 when Cowher finally had a franchise QB

You would be referring to the franchise QB that Cowher wanted to leave on the draft board for the illustrious Shawn Andrews (OT) and then only played when there was a season ending injury to the other QB - the immortal Tommy Maddox.

Cowher had a ton of good qualities, but his achilles heel was that he completely undervalued and/or miss-evaluated QB talent.

zulater
09-29-2014, 10:14 AM
You would be referring to the franchise QB that Cowher wanted to leave on the draft board for the illustrious Shawn Andrews (OT) and then only played when there was a season ending injury to the other QB - the immortal Tommy Maddox.

Cowher had a ton of good qualities, but his achilles heel was that he completely undervalued and/or miss-evaluated QB talent.I get that Cowher would have mismanaged that pick if it had been left to him. But once he had Ben I think he showed that he could adapt to having that sort of qb. 2004 and 2005 were two pretty damn good years if you ask me. Yeah I know Cowher mangled Ben's injuries in 2006. But do you really believe that if Bill had kept his enthusiasm for the job that we wouldn't have had a pretty good run from 2007-12 had he stayed on the job?


By the way I'm not sitting here saying Tomlin has to be fired. I'm just saying we got to at least start considering whether he's more part of the problem or more part of the cure?

polamalubeast
09-29-2014, 10:16 AM
You would be referring to the franchise QB that Cowher wanted to leave on the draft board for the illustrious Shawn Andrews (OT) and then only played when there was a season ending injury to the other QB - the immortal Tommy Maddox.

Cowher had a ton of good qualities, but his achilles heel was that he completely undervalued and/or miss-evaluated QB talent.


Cowher is to blame for that but I think Cowher knows what to do with a franchise QB.

Also the Steelers had the best record in the NFL from 1992 to 2006 and it was without a franchise QB for 12 years.

fansince'76
09-29-2014, 10:17 AM
I disagree with that.

Cowher had a 15-1 season in 2004 and a Super Bowl in 2005 when Cowher finally had a franchise QB

A franchise QB who has spent his career trying to shake the bullshit "game manager" moniker largely because of the way Cowher (mis)handled him in those two years.

polamalubeast
09-29-2014, 10:21 AM
A franchise QB who has spent his career trying to shake the bullshit "game manager" moniker largely because of the way Cowher (mis)handled him in those two years.


Ben was a young QB at this time.Also game manager was not the right word. Ben was a playmaker in 2004 and 2005. Ben led the NFL for the YPA in 2004 and 2005.

And if I recalls well, the Steelers were a pass happy team under Cowher in 2002 with Tommy Maddox ....

fansince'76
09-29-2014, 10:29 AM
Cowher is to blame for that but I think Cowher knows what to do with a franchise QB.

Also the Steelers had the best record in the NFL from 1992 to 2006 and it was without a franchise QB for 12 years.

As Mojouw pointed out in another thread, without a very fortunate tackle by Roethlisberger, Cowher would have wound up a slimmer version of Andy Reid.

zulater
09-29-2014, 10:30 AM
A franchise QB who has spent his career trying to shake the bullshit "game manager" moniker largely because of the way Cowher (mis)handled him in those two years.

So now we got to rip Cowher to prop up Teflon Tomlin?

fansince'76
09-29-2014, 10:32 AM
So now we got to rip Cowher to prop up Teflon Tomlin?

No, what I do I think is that people need to stop over-romanticizing and playing revisionist history with the Cowher era to tear Tomlin down even further.

zulater
09-29-2014, 10:36 AM
As Mojouw pointed out in another thread, without a very fortunate tackle by Roethlisberger, Cowher would have wound up a slimmer version of Andy Reid.

So Cowher is responsible for Bettis fumbling? In all honestly it was as much of a fluke Bettis fumbling as Ben making the shoestring tackle. Also if I remember didn't the refs blow a turnover call by Polamala that would have sealed the win earlier?

If the suggestion is the Steelers weren't the better team that day or weren't properly prepared for that game, then I call.:poop:

- - - Updated - - -


No, what I do I think is that people need to stop over-romanticizing and playing revisionist history with the Cowher era to tear Tomlin down even further.

Tomlin deserves to be torn down today. Sorry but you shit the bed as a coaching staff as bad as the Steelers did yesterday people have a right to vent.


We all know Tomlin isn't going anywhere and will have the chance to right the ship. But for the next couple days I think Tomlin bashing is completely fair game.

polamalubeast
09-29-2014, 10:36 AM
As Mojouw pointed out in another thread, without a very fortunate tackle by Roethlisberger, Cowher would have wound up a slimmer version of Andy Reid.


This is Bettis which has been lucky to win this game, not Cowher.

And the referees made ​​the wrong decision on the interception of Polamalu so the game would not have been Close If the referee would have make the right decision on this play.

fansince'76
09-29-2014, 10:41 AM
Tomlin deserves to be torn down today. Sorry but you shit the bed as a coaching staff as bad as the Steelers did yesterday people have a right to vent.


We all know Tomlin isn't going anywhere and will have the chance to right the ship. But for the next couple days I think Tomlin bashing is completely fair game.

Fair enough. My question is why does Cowher always have to be brought back up like his tenure was some sort of "Golden Age" of Steelers football?

fansince'76
09-29-2014, 10:44 AM
This is Bettis which has been lucky to win this game, not Cowher.

And the referees made ​​the wrong decision on the interception of Polamalu so the game would not have been Close If the referee would have make the right decision on this play.

And if McNabb hadn't the biggest big game choker this side of Peyton Manning, chances are Reid would have won a couple of rings.

zulater
09-29-2014, 10:45 AM
Fair enough. My question is why does Cowher always have to be brought back up like his tenure was some sort of "Golden Age" of Steelers football?

My guess it's the losses and poor performances against bad teams that bring it up?

I haven't done the research, and sometimes memories are fonder than reality. But I don't remember Cowher teams losing or almost losing on a regular basis to teams that have or project to lose 10 plus games. The fact that no win can be taken for granted in the last few years is disturbing. I mean I'm nervous as shit that we give Jacksonville their first win next week. Aren't you?

steelreserve
09-29-2014, 11:24 AM
Helps that all three of those coaches have more talented rosters than the Pittsburgh Steelers. What did Caroll and Bellicheck do in their first stints when they had talent deficient rosters.

Look, I am not a huge Tomlin fan at the moment. I never really liked Haley's offense, and Lebeau is Lebeau. No 70 some year old man is going to change. But everyone is acting like this team is a decent head coach away from contending for a SB. They are not. Ben, AB, Bell, Heyward, Timmons and 2 of 5 offensive linemen are of that caliber. That is 7 out of 53. Rest of the roster is league average at best.

Name me three defenders from this team that start on the Pats, 49'ers, Broncos, Seahawks, or another legit SB contender right now?


You can say what you want about talent, but that's no excuse. Homeboy has had EIGHT YEARS "in charge" of the team (quotes intentional), so he owns that. Not enough good players on the team? That's on him. The coach doesn't have any control over roster moves? That's also on him. If you're a GOOD COACH, you will gain enough influence and exert it to build the team as you see fit. He has had plenty of time to do that. Using the argument of "well, the talent level isn't there" says one of two things about Tomlin: Either he's done a poor job of evaluating and developing players, or the other people who matter in the organization don't take him seriously.

As for the Cowher debate taking place on the side throughout the thread. I don't think anyone believes the man was without his faults as a coach. But there were certain things - very important things - that he did better, that were key to building a winning football team. First, for whatever reason, he was able to consistently get excellent line play on both sides of the ball, and not by spending every first- and second-round pick on the line and whiffing on well over half of them. Second, for the defense in general, he seemed to have a knack for identifying difference-making players and coaching them up if necessary. Again, not always by throwing so many first-round picks at it that eventually some were bound to stick. We've suffered from a serious inability to find any talent in the defensive backfield for a full decade now, and it's absolutely killing us. The only positions we've really managed to MAINTAIN under Tomlin (notice I didn't say "improve") have been wide receiver and linebacker, and even the second one is iffy. Everything else has been a major backslide.

Eight years. After that long, your problems are nobody's fault but your own. It's enough time to draft a whole new team, it's enough time to turn over your entire salary cap multiple times, it's enough time to gain control over all of those processes if you know what you're doing. Talent evaluation has been lacking, preparation has been poor both for individual games and for the season overall, and player development has been nil. That looks to me like it's a mindset thing.

Again, Cowher was far from perfect, but THAT was never a problem, and our team could use a healthy dose of it. The amount of success the guy had with no quarterback really indicates how strong he must have been at almost everything else. We went through a handful of tough years retooling the team, but for the most part we stayed competitive even then and there was a clear path to getting back on our feet - there was never this prolonged stretch of losing games just because we were aimless.

In the hypothetical situation that he did come back, you would think it would be easy to say, "Oh - SHIT! There was one thing I was doing wrong, and as soon as it got fixed, we went to three Super Bowls! I get how that works now!" Not that I think that is going to happen. But as far as Tomlin-vs.-Cowher, give me a fuckin' break, it's no contest at all.

Dwinsgames
09-29-2014, 11:45 AM
Why Exactly is Mike Tomlin Untouchable?

because he is " Soundbite Mike "

Mojouw
09-29-2014, 11:46 AM
You can say what you want about talent, but that's no excuse. Homeboy has had EIGHT YEARS "in charge" of the team (quotes intentional), so he owns that. Not enough good players on the team? That's on him. The coach doesn't have any control over roster moves? That's also on him. If you're a GOOD COACH, you will gain enough influence and exert it to build the team as you see fit. He has had plenty of time to do that. Using the argument of "well, the talent level isn't there" says one of two things about Tomlin: Either he's done a poor job of evaluating and developing players, or the other people who matter in the organization don't take him seriously.

As for the Cowher debate taking place on the side throughout the thread. I don't think anyone believes the man was without his faults as a coach. But there were certain things - very important things - that he did better, that were key to building a winning football team. First, for whatever reason, he was able to consistently get excellent line play on both sides of the ball, and not by spending every first- and second-round pick on the line and whiffing on well over half of them. Second, for the defense in general, he seemed to have a knack for identifying difference-making players and coaching them up if necessary. Again, not always by throwing so many first-round picks at it that eventually some were bound to stick. We've suffered from a serious inability to find any talent in the defensive backfield for a full decade now, and it's absolutely killing us. The only positions we've really managed to MAINTAIN under Tomlin (notice I didn't say "improve") have been wide receiver and linebacker, and even the second one is iffy. Everything else has been a major backslide.

Eight years. After that long, your problems are nobody's fault but your own. It's enough time to draft a whole new team, it's enough time to turn over your entire salary cap multiple times, it's enough time to gain control over all of those processes if you know what you're doing. Talent evaluation has been lacking, preparation has been poor both for individual games and for the season overall, and player development has been nil. That looks to me like it's a mindset thing.

Again, Cowher was far from perfect, but THAT was never a problem, and our team could use a healthy dose of it. The amount of success the guy had with no quarterback really indicates how strong he must have been at almost everything else. We went through a handful of tough years retooling the team, but for the most part we stayed competitive even then and there was a clear path to getting back on our feet - there was never this prolonged stretch of losing games just because we were aimless.

In the hypothetical situation that he did come back, you would think it would be easy to say, "Oh - SHIT! There was one thing I was doing wrong, and as soon as it got fixed, we went to three Super Bowls! I get how that works now!" Not that I think that is going to happen. But as far as Tomlin-vs.-Cowher, give me a fuckin' break, it's no contest at all.

Do any of us actually remember the Cowher era for what it was? Other than Rod Woodson and Carnell Lake, this team struggled for years to find DB talent. Remember when the corners were Chad Scott and Dewayne Washington? Remember who Deshea Townsend sat on the bench for YEARS before he got into the top 3 corner rotation and then performed really well? LEt us all pause and remember that Scott Shields started for this team once upon a time.

As for the low draft picks performing amazingly well, remember the rate at which teams played the 3-4 for much of Cowher's tenure and look at it now. Cowher and the Steelers benefitted from being able to draft guys that other teams were undervaluing. What round would Aaron Smith and Joey Porter go in today? Likely the top 2. Same for Jason Gildon and Brett Kiesel.

As for the WR's -- things have been a major improvement in the Tomlin regime. The talent is better overall and talented young WR's are not wasting away on the bench, while the team continues to bring in other players. That is what happened with THigpen, Hakwins, and Ward.

Also as for not spending high picks on linemen - that is demonstrably false -- http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/steelers.html

Look I know that Cowher is a better coach than Tomlin. He is likely a better coach than about half the league right now. But head-coaching is far from this team's most glaring problem.

Looking at the past through Black and Gold colored classes and pining away for the Chin doesn't do anything either.

The lack of significant contributions from the recent draft classes (2008 anyone?) and the aging of HOF level talents (Smith, Harrison, Polamalu) has made this a not so good football team.

fansince'76
09-29-2014, 12:08 PM
Do any of us actually remember the Cowher era for what it was? Other than Rod Woodson and Carnell Lake, this team struggled for years to find DB talent. Remember when the corners were Chad Scott and Dewayne Washington? Remember who Deshea Townsend sat on the bench for YEARS before he got into the top 3 corner rotation and then performed really well? LEt us all pause and remember that Scott Shields started for this team once upon a time.

As for the low draft picks performing amazingly well, remember the rate at which teams played the 3-4 for much of Cowher's tenure and look at it now. Cowher and the Steelers benefitted from being able to draft guys that other teams were undervaluing. What round would Aaron Smith and Joey Porter go in today? Likely the top 2. Same for Jason Gildon and Brett Kiesel.

As for the WR's -- things have been a major improvement in the Tomlin regime. The talent is better overall and talented young WR's are not wasting away on the bench, while the team continues to bring in other players. That is what happened with THigpen, Hakwins, and Ward.

Also as for not spending high picks on linemen - that is demonstrably false -- http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/steelers.html

Look I know that Cowher is a better coach than Tomlin. He is likely a better coach than about half the league right now. But head-coaching is far from this team's most glaring problem.

Looking at the past through Black and Gold colored classes and pining away for the Chin doesn't do anything either.

The lack of significant contributions from the recent draft classes (2008 anyone?) and the aging of HOF level talents (Smith, Harrison, Polamalu) has made this a not so good football team.

Never mind - this was eveything I was going to point out and then some.

zulater
09-29-2014, 12:59 PM
I think this team is better than Tampa Bay.

I think this team should be able to protect a 24 point halftime lead over the Browns without having to kick a last second field goal to grab victory from the jaws of defeat.

I think the amount and type of penalties this team takes is more reflective of lack of discipline and preparation than overall lack of talent.

I think Lance Moore of the 3 million dollar free agent contract languishing on the bench in Tomlin's doghouse while non NFL talent Justin Brown is dropping balls in the end zone is reflective of organizational lack of direction.


I think taking the ball out of your best players hands (Ben) on the most crucial play of the game (3rd and 5 with under a minute to play) is a perfect example of coaching not to lose rather than coaching to win. I guess the powers that be forgot how we closed out the 2010 AFC Championship game against the surging Jets? I guess the powers that be forgot how this team blew a 24 point lead against the Browns only 3 weeks before?

Yeah Mojouw the talent could be better. But the same could be said about 25 or so other NFL teams.

Right now the coaches are doing little or nothing to maximize the strengths and abilities of available talent.

steelreserve
09-29-2014, 01:07 PM
Do any of us actually remember the Cowher era for what it was? Other than Rod Woodson and Carnell Lake, this team struggled for years to find DB talent. Remember when the corners were Chad Scott and Dewayne Washington? Remember who Deshea Townsend sat on the bench for YEARS before he got into the top 3 corner rotation and then performed really well? LEt us all pause and remember that Scott Shields started for this team once upon a time.

As for the low draft picks performing amazingly well, remember the rate at which teams played the 3-4 for much of Cowher's tenure and look at it now. Cowher and the Steelers benefitted from being able to draft guys that other teams were undervaluing. What round would Aaron Smith and Joey Porter go in today? Likely the top 2. Same for Jason Gildon and Brett Kiesel.

As for the WR's -- things have been a major improvement in the Tomlin regime. The talent is better overall and talented young WR's are not wasting away on the bench, while the team continues to bring in other players. That is what happened with THigpen, Hakwins, and Ward.

Also as for not spending high picks on linemen - that is demonstrably false -- http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/steelers.html

Look I know that Cowher is a better coach than Tomlin. He is likely a better coach than about half the league right now. But head-coaching is far from this team's most glaring problem.

Looking at the past through Black and Gold colored classes and pining away for the Chin doesn't do anything either.

The lack of significant contributions from the recent draft classes (2008 anyone?) and the aging of HOF level talents (Smith, Harrison, Polamalu) has made this a not so good football team.


Some good points, especially about the DBs, but the fact is we've gotten better at ONE position (WR), and even then, you could argue that the previous 3 years notwithstanding, with currently one super stud receiver followed by a bunch of young guys and question marks, we're presently not that much better off. The passing game is not as overlooked as it was before, but I wouldn't call that a "major" improvement in talent at all. The QB is the same guy, hopefully this new RB continues to do well, but we've gotten worse at literally EVERYTHING else. You cannot chalk all of that up to bad luck and stuff that we could not do anything about.

I didn't say we NEVER spent high picks on linemen, we just didn't use ALL of them that way. Go check your own link for proof. Under Cowher we spent something like 40% of our #1 and #2 picks on linemen and LBs. Under Tomlin 15 of 18 #1 and #2 draft picks have been linemen or linebackers. It's like someone took the idea of "OMG STEELERS FOOTBALL" and turned it into a caricature, and this is what came out. Previously, those picks were spread out pretty evenly across the rounds, but the sad thing is that now, even though we're using all our premium draft picks on them, we still have about the same success rate. That speaks to poor talent evaluation, poor player development, and undoubtedly some poor adaptability mixed in, which are all coaching things.

Don't give me the crap about how all our woes are because more teams are switching to the 3-4 and making it harder to find players. Why aren't they all struggling too, then? Is there a rule somewhere that says we can never change what we're doing, but everyone else can? I don't even mean just the scheme, I mean about how you evaluate players, coach them, and all of the things that go into making your system work with the players you've got. Instead we've been square-peg-round-holing it for over half a decade because the coach either doesn't have control over that part of the team or doesn't have a clue about how to tweak what the team is doing, and in the meantime we've paying a premium price for the players to try it with. I don't think Tomlin even knows what a nose tackle looks like, and probably not a DB either.

Then the lack of preparedness. We seem to get beaten by inferior teams more often than not. We've come out the last three years in a row looking like we were simply not ready for the season. I don't know how that could be anything BUT a coaching problem. Say what you want about Cowher, but that kind of crap almost never went on under him, the last season when he was obviously mailing it in notwithstanding. Our team frustrates and plays down to opponents; individual players disappoint and play below their raw talent level. It's a total shitfuck with no one driving.

I don't intend any of this to mean "Gee, Cowher's entire tenure here was great and there weren't any problems at all," or "We should bring Cowher back to run the team now." I don't think that at all. But since the question was asked, my point is that despite having his faults, yes, the guy was superior to Tomlin in almost every way. We've got a problem in the coaching department, and it's becoming more clear every day that we hired the wrong guy. Making excuses with "but Cowher this" and "but Cowher that" doesn't change the current situation a bit.

Dwinsgames
09-29-2014, 01:09 PM
I think this team is better than Tampa Bay.

I think this team should be able to protect a 24 point halftime lead over the Browns without having to kick a last second field goal to grab victory from the jaws of defeat.

I think the amount and type of penalties this team takes is more reflective of lack of discipline and preparation than overall lack of talent.

I think Lance Moore of the 3 million dollar free agent contract languishing on the bench in Tomlin's doghouse while non NFL talent Justin Brown is dropping balls in the end zone is reflective of organizational lack of direction.


I think taking the ball out of your best players hands (Ben) on the most crucial play of the game (3rd and 5 with under a minute to play) is a perfect example of coaching not to lose rather than coaching to win. I guess the powers that be forgot how we closed out the 2010 AFC Championship game against the surging Jets? I guess the powers that be forgot how this team blew a 24 point lead against the Browns only 3 weeks before?

Yeah Mojouw the talent could be better. But the same could be said about 25 or so other NFL teams.

Right now the coaches are doing little or nothing to maximize the strengths and abilities of available talent.

perhaps your best post in a year ... Bravo

zulater
09-29-2014, 01:29 PM
perhaps your best post in a year ... Bravo


Damn. I didn't realize I was in a slump! :chuckle:

Thanks for the good word friend. :wave:

Shoes
09-29-2014, 01:59 PM
I think this team is better than Tampa Bay.

I think this team should be able to protect a 24 point halftime lead over the Browns without having to kick a last second field goal to grab victory from the jaws of defeat.

I think the amount and type of penalties this team takes is more reflective of lack of discipline and preparation than overall lack of talent.

I think Lance Moore of the 3 million dollar free agent contract languishing on the bench in Tomlin's doghouse while non NFL talent Justin Brown is dropping balls in the end zone is reflective of organizational lack of direction.


I think taking the ball out of your best players hands (Ben) on the most crucial play of the game (3rd and 5 with under a minute to play) is a perfect example of coaching not to lose rather than coaching to win. I guess the powers that be forgot how we closed out the 2010 AFC Championship game against the surging Jets? I guess the powers that be forgot how this team blew a 24 point lead against the Browns only 3 weeks before?

Yeah Mojouw the talent could be better. But the same could be said about 25 or so other NFL teams.

Right now the coaches are doing little or nothing to maximize the strengths and abilities of available talent.


Well said Zu!

Mojouw
09-29-2014, 03:38 PM
Some good points, especially about the DBs, but the fact is we've gotten better at ONE position (WR), and even then, you could argue that the previous 3 years notwithstanding, with currently one super stud receiver followed by a bunch of young guys and question marks, we're presently not that much better off. The passing game is not as overlooked as it was before, but I wouldn't call that a "major" improvement in talent at all. The QB is the same guy, hopefully this new RB continues to do well, but we've gotten worse at literally EVERYTHING else. You cannot chalk all of that up to bad luck and stuff that we could not do anything about.

I didn't say we NEVER spent high picks on linemen, we just didn't use ALL of them that way. Go check your own link for proof. Under Cowher we spent something like 40% of our #1 and #2 picks on linemen and LBs. Under Tomlin 15 of 18 #1 and #2 draft picks have been linemen or linebackers. It's like someone took the idea of "OMG STEELERS FOOTBALL" and turned it into a caricature, and this is what came out. Previously, those picks were spread out pretty evenly across the rounds, but the sad thing is that now, even though we're using all our premium draft picks on them, we still have about the same success rate. That speaks to poor talent evaluation, poor player development, and undoubtedly some poor adaptability mixed in, which are all coaching things.

Don't give me the crap about how all our woes are because more teams are switching to the 3-4 and making it harder to find players. Why aren't they all struggling too, then? Is there a rule somewhere that says we can never change what we're doing, but everyone else can? I don't even mean just the scheme, I mean about how you evaluate players, coach them, and all of the things that go into making your system work with the players you've got. Instead we've been square-peg-round-holing it for over half a decade because the coach either doesn't have control over that part of the team or doesn't have a clue about how to tweak what the team is doing, and in the meantime we've paying a premium price for the players to try it with. I don't think Tomlin even knows what a nose tackle looks like, and probably not a DB either.

Then the lack of preparedness. We seem to get beaten by inferior teams more often than not. We've come out the last three years in a row looking like we were simply not ready for the season. I don't know how that could be anything BUT a coaching problem. Say what you want about Cowher, but that kind of crap almost never went on under him, the last season when he was obviously mailing it in notwithstanding. Our team frustrates and plays down to opponents; individual players disappoint and play below their raw talent level. It's a total shitfuck with no one driving.

I don't intend any of this to mean "Gee, Cowher's entire tenure here was great and there weren't any problems at all," or "We should bring Cowher back to run the team now." I don't think that at all. But since the question was asked, my point is that despite having his faults, yes, the guy was superior to Tomlin in almost every way. We've got a problem in the coaching department, and it's becoming more clear every day that we hired the wrong guy. Making excuses with "but Cowher this" and "but Cowher that" doesn't change the current situation a bit.

The thing is, we actually agree on most things. Cowher is a better coach than Tomlin, but we need to criticize what is actually wrong with the team and not focus on "der mental toughness", "hrrr glib press conference answers", etc and pretend that changing these thing would in any way make this team better.

The draft situation is a feedback loop. As more teams "value" edge players that can play in a 3-4 or multiple fronts - then you have to spend better (first 2 rounds) and more resources to get them. Additionally having a 100+ million dollar franchise cornerstone that is/was getting hit at levels that would make David Carr shiver in horror, will drive a prioritization of how many resources one devotes to the OL.

Further, the Steelers, when Tomlin took over, were a 3 yards and a cloud of dust kind of football team. Their OL was built specifically to block for power I football. The team and the NFL was no longer focused on that type of offense. As a result the ENTIRE offensive line had to be rebuilt on the fly. Now, as you have said, they pretty well bungled it outside of Pouncey and DeCastro.

As for talent evaluation and the role of young/er players, we agree there as well. I have long said that the excuse that the defense is too difficult to rapidly incorporate 1-3 year players is a load of crap and simply means you have to coach better.

But none of these excellent points were what was being focused on. What was being focused on was armchair psycology and coach-speak quotes. These are meaningless.

Discussing why young players are not contributing earlier, why early round draft picks have fizzled, and why there are entire draft classes that are barely represented on the roster -- this is what actually makes or breaks a football team -- not what gets said in an NFL mandated media scrum after the game.

- - - Updated - - -


I think this team is better than Tampa Bay.

I think this team should be able to protect a 24 point halftime lead over the Browns without having to kick a last second field goal to grab victory from the jaws of defeat.

I think the amount and type of penalties this team takes is more reflective of lack of discipline and preparation than overall lack of talent.

I think Lance Moore of the 3 million dollar free agent contract languishing on the bench in Tomlin's doghouse while non NFL talent Justin Brown is dropping balls in the end zone is reflective of organizational lack of direction.


I think taking the ball out of your best players hands (Ben) on the most crucial play of the game (3rd and 5 with under a minute to play) is a perfect example of coaching not to lose rather than coaching to win. I guess the powers that be forgot how we closed out the 2010 AFC Championship game against the surging Jets? I guess the powers that be forgot how this team blew a 24 point lead against the Browns only 3 weeks before?

Yeah Mojouw the talent could be better. But the same could be said about 25 or so other NFL teams.

Right now the coaches are doing little or nothing to maximize the strengths and abilities of available talent.

Such as? How can this staff "maximize" the DB's on this rosters (in)ability to match up with receivers on the outside? Change that from a negative (which it has been all season) to a positive and Haley could have called delayed draws all second half. The Steelers would have won going away.

The lack of playmakers on the edges of this defense (OLB and CB) has been a killer for 2 years now. Until that changes, be prepared for more of what happened on Sunday.

polamalubeast
09-29-2014, 03:47 PM
The thing is, we actually agree on most things. Cowher is a better coach than Tomlin, but we need to criticize what is actually wrong with the team and not focus on "der mental toughness", "hrrr glib press conference answers", etc and pretend that changing these thing would in any way make this team better.

The draft situation is a feedback loop. As more teams "value" edge players that can play in a 3-4 or multiple fronts - then you have to spend better (first 2 rounds) and more resources to get them. Additionally having a 100+ million dollar franchise cornerstone that is/was getting hit at levels that would make David Carr shiver in horror, will drive a prioritization of how many resources one devotes to the OL.

Further, the Steelers, when Tomlin took over, were a 3 yards and a cloud of dust kind of football team. Their OL was built specifically to block for power I football. The team and the NFL was no longer focused on that type of offense. As a result the ENTIRE offensive line had to be rebuilt on the fly. Now, as you have said, they pretty well bungled it outside of Pouncey and DeCastro.

As for talent evaluation and the role of young/er players, we agree there as well. I have long said that the excuse that the defense is too difficult to rapidly incorporate 1-3 year players is a load of crap and simply means you have to coach better.

But none of these excellent points were what was being focused on. What was being focused on was armchair psycology and coach-speak quotes. These are meaningless.

Discussing why young players are not contributing earlier, why early round draft picks have fizzled, and why there are entire draft classes that are barely represented on the roster -- this is what actually makes or breaks a football team -- not what gets said in an NFL mandated media scrum after the game.

- - - Updated - - -



Such as? How can this staff "maximize" the DB's on this rosters (in)ability to match up with receivers on the outside? Change that from a negative (which it has been all season) to a positive and Haley could have called delayed draws all second half. The Steelers would have won going away.

The lack of playmakers on the edges of this defense (OLB and CB) has been a killer for 2 years now. Until that changes, be prepared for more of what happened on Sunday.

Do you think Colbert and/or Tomlin deserves to be fired if the Steelers continue to be bad/average this year?

I know that talent on the defense is not very good right now, but they are the ones who put the product on the field

zulater
09-29-2014, 03:54 PM
When the Steelers offense plays with urgency they are dangerous. The second quarter the Steelers played with urgency because they were behind. As soon as they get the lead they go too conservative.

So what's the apologist explanation for our "two minute offense" at the end of the first half? Getting the ball at your own 39 with 1.53 to play with 3 time outs, and you have to "clock a ball" (wasting a valuable down) after only 5 plays having already used two time outs? :frusty:

Contrast that with TB getting the ball at the Steelers 46 with 40 seconds on the clock with no timeouts and managing to run 5 plays to the end zone. Hell they even left 12 seconds on the clock.

How the hell can you use that much time (Steelers) with timeouts being used?

Yeah effing great coaching. Lets give them all life time extensions.

Dwinsgames
09-29-2014, 04:03 PM
if this team was disciplined we would have won that game PERIOD

you can not start the game down 10-0 and commit 6 penalties of 15 yards a pop and win games ( 125 penalty yards in all )

discipline is a word 90% of these guys never heard ( or so it seems ) I blame that on the coaching staff and any blame that goes to the coaches goes to Tomlin as it is his job as the " Manager" ( head coach ) to get in his coaches ass's to make sure they drive the points across to the team in each player grouping ....

think of it as work .... if you are a manager / foreman and your people are screwing up your boss comes down on YOU not them because its your fault for not being a better manager /foreman in instructing your people on what the expectation is .... if those coaches are turning a deaf ear to you then you lost their respect and your message is stale ...

Sound Bite Mike Tomlins message I fear is stale , his talk is just that talk .... he does not back the talk up with actions and the coaches and players alike know that its idle talk , meaningless words that have nothing backing them up ....

it happens to many coaches so its not a just Tomlin .. I honestly do not know the answer but what we have been doing is not working ....

Sound bites are NOT the answer

zulater
09-29-2014, 04:08 PM
Here's another way to look at it. The Steelers burned two timeouts and 1.22 seconds in moving 31 yardsn in 5 plays, necessitating clocking the ball to stop the clock with 30 seconds remaining in the half.

The Bucs moved 46 yards in 5 plays in 28 seconds with no time outs.

Something's wrong here.

And before you go blaming it on Ben I can find you multiple examples of Ben moving the team down the field in less time for scores throughout his career.

The sideline decided the urgency in my opinion. They practically played for the field goal with great starting field position 3 time outs and almost all of two minutes on the clock.

This possession swung the second half's momentum in my opinion.

Steelermania
09-29-2014, 04:08 PM
Homeboy has had EIGHT YEARS "in charge" of the team (quotes intentional), so he owns that.

Homeboy? Really?

Steelermania
09-29-2014, 04:13 PM
Here's another way to look at it. The Steelers burned two timeouts and 1.22 seconds in moving 31 yardsn in 5 plays, necessitating clocking the ball to stop the clock with 30 seconds remaining in the half.

The Bucs moved 46 yards in 5 plays in 28 seconds with no time outs.

Something's wrong here.

And before you go blaming it on Ben I can find you multiple examples of Ben moving the team down the field in less time for scores throughout his career.

The sideline decided the urgency in my opinion. They practically played for the field goal with great starting field position 3 time outs and almost all of two minutes on the clock.

This possession swung the second half's momentum in my opinion.

Actually, clocking the ball there was dumb. Teams clock the ball too damn much. That was no 20 yard gain where guys where running up to the line. It's second down and 6, run a play. You have to value downs as much as you do clock. A quick sideline pass would have gained a first down, and left you with enough time to try for a td. If the pass fails, you still have 25 seconds left, plus a timeout.

steelreserve
09-29-2014, 04:14 PM
The thing is, we actually agree on most things. Cowher is a better coach than Tomlin, but we need to criticize what is actually wrong with the team and not focus on "der mental toughness", "hrrr glib press conference answers", etc and pretend that changing these thing would in any way make this team better.

The draft situation is a feedback loop. As more teams "value" edge players that can play in a 3-4 or multiple fronts - then you have to spend better (first 2 rounds) and more resources to get them. Additionally having a 100+ million dollar franchise cornerstone that is/was getting hit at levels that would make David Carr shiver in horror, will drive a prioritization of how many resources one devotes to the OL.

Further, the Steelers, when Tomlin took over, were a 3 yards and a cloud of dust kind of football team. Their OL was built specifically to block for power I football. The team and the NFL was no longer focused on that type of offense. As a result the ENTIRE offensive line had to be rebuilt on the fly. Now, as you have said, they pretty well bungled it outside of Pouncey and DeCastro.

As for talent evaluation and the role of young/er players, we agree there as well. I have long said that the excuse that the defense is too difficult to rapidly incorporate 1-3 year players is a load of crap and simply means you have to coach better.

But none of these excellent points were what was being focused on. What was being focused on was armchair psycology and coach-speak quotes. These are meaningless.

Discussing why young players are not contributing earlier, why early round draft picks have fizzled, and why there are entire draft classes that are barely represented on the roster -- this is what actually makes or breaks a football team -- not what gets said in an NFL mandated media scrum after the game.


I'm with you on just about all of that. Except for the part about the "draft feedback loop" ruining our chances. Everybody else is picking in the same draft as us. What we did in a lot of cases was to foolishly go looking for 1:1 replacements that weren't there, just so we wouldn't have to adapt our system. You want to talk about Cowher running an offensive system that would be 10 years out of date, take a look at how we're handling the replenishment of the defense right now. Other teams have caught up and passed us, and we still refuse to budge an inch.

Anyway. Not to argue that point, because it's really just one out of a thousand that make up the whole. We shouldn't be missing on as many picks as we did; and we shouldn't be taking talented players and seeing so many of them never progress much past the way they were in their rookie seasons. Your point about needing to rebuild the offensive line is valid, but we didn't need to do it by way of spending all premium draft picks on it. On a normal team, you'd do it with a mix of high and low-round picks. But none of our low-round picks ever seem to work out, which makes sense if you're talking 5th-round guys who never improve because the coaching isn't there.

In the meantime, the firehose of top draft picks spent on non-skill positions has left us hurting at the positions where you legitimately need to spend high picks every so often. We haven't drafted a successful nose tackle since 2001, and the one good cornerback we've taken in the last decade now plays for New Orleans. No coincidence that all we use on those positions are 4th- and 5th-round flyers, because that's all we have left after we used all our high picks to cover up the fact that we can't coach fundamentals like blocking or tackling. So we take some freak athletes at low-value positions, hoping they can get the job done on natural talent alone, and sometimes they do, but none of them play anything like a coherent unit. That to me is the mark of a poorly coached team.

The edge pass rushers have been a problem, but I also think it's too easy to blame that on the hyped-up pass-rushing OLB position because that's who gets the most sacks. When really, the number of sacks the outside rushers get is more a function of how good the defensive line is. Look at the number of sacks we get year to year, and you'll see it drop off sharply as soon as A. Smith and Hampton started declining, with no replacements. Woodley isn't a great pass rusher in his own right, but he got a ton of sacks when he lined up outside Aaron Smith. Throw Ziggy Hood in there, and it was next to nothing. When the line knew what it was doing, it didn't really matter who you put at OLB; if they were even OK, they'd get you at least 8 or 9 sacks. How do you think it is we always used to have plug-and-play linebackers in the 1990s and 2000s, and no matter who you put in, they turned into a star? Because we were just super super super lucky? Or because their job was made a shitload easier by the guys in front of them. Guys who we've failed to replace despite throwing one high pick after another at the position, while inexplicably ignoring the position in the middle that's arguably the most important of all.

Fundamentals, man. If we could coach those, we wouldn't NEED to spend all those top picks at those positions, guys like Adams and Gilbert would be doing their jobs, and a guy like Cam Heyward would be a legitimate star. Instead it's drift ... drift ... try to figure it out on your own .. drift more, and you get like 3 guys on the team who are naturally of such star-caliber talent that they can improve with or without coaching, and the rest just keep drifting. It's a damn shame, because with even a little direction, I think we have the talent to make ourselves into a legitimate contender again.

stillers4me
09-29-2014, 04:16 PM
Homeboy? Really?I was a little put back by that myself.

Mojouw
09-29-2014, 04:40 PM
Do you think Colbert and/or Tomlin deserves to be fired if the Steelers continue to be bad/average this year?

I know that talent on the defense is not very good right now, but they are the ones who put the product on the field

If there is no progress with the young players and they continue to make mistakes, then yes. If there is player development and the team shows progress (like last season) then no.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm with you on just about all of that. Except for the part about the "draft feedback loop" ruining our chances. Everybody else is picking in the same draft as us. What we did in a lot of cases was to foolishly go looking for 1:1 replacements that weren't there, just so we wouldn't have to adapt our system. You want to talk about Cowher running an offensive system that would be 10 years out of date, take a look at how we're handling the replenishment of the defense right now. Other teams have caught up and passed us, and we still refuse to budge an inch.

Anyway. Not to argue that point, because it's really just one out of a thousand that make up the whole. We shouldn't be missing on as many picks as we did; and we shouldn't be taking talented players and seeing so many of them never progress much past the way they were in their rookie seasons. Your point about needing to rebuild the offensive line is valid, but we didn't need to do it by way of spending all premium draft picks on it. On a normal team, you'd do it with a mix of high and low-round picks. But none of our low-round picks ever seem to work out, which makes sense if you're talking 5th-round guys who never improve because the coaching isn't there.

In the meantime, the firehose of top draft picks spent on non-skill positions has left us hurting at the positions where you legitimately need to spend high picks every so often. We haven't drafted a successful nose tackle since 2001, and the one good cornerback we've taken in the last decade now plays for New Orleans. No coincidence that all we use on those positions are 4th- and 5th-round flyers, because that's all we have left after we used all our high picks to cover up the fact that we can't coach fundamentals like blocking or tackling. So we take some freak athletes at low-value positions, hoping they can get the job done on natural talent alone, and sometimes they do, but none of them play anything like a coherent unit. That to me is the mark of a poorly coached team.

The edge pass rushers have been a problem, but I also think it's too easy to blame that on the hyped-up pass-rushing OLB position because that's who gets the most sacks. When really, the number of sacks the outside rushers get is more a function of how good the defensive line is. Look at the number of sacks we get year to year, and you'll see it drop off sharply as soon as A. Smith and Hampton started declining, with no replacements. Woodley isn't a great pass rusher in his own right, but he got a ton of sacks when he lined up outside Aaron Smith. Throw Ziggy Hood in there, and it was next to nothing. When the line knew what it was doing, it didn't really matter who you put at OLB; if they were even OK, they'd get you at least 8 or 9 sacks. How do you think it is we always used to have plug-and-play linebackers in the 1990s and 2000s, and no matter who you put in, they turned into a star? Because we were just super super super lucky? Or because their job was made a shitload easier by the guys in front of them. Guys who we've failed to replace despite throwing one high pick after another at the position, while inexplicably ignoring the position in the middle that's arguably the most important of all.

Fundamentals, man. If we could coach those, we wouldn't NEED to spend all those top picks at those positions, guys like Adams and Gilbert would be doing their jobs, and a guy like Cam Heyward would be a legitimate star. Instead it's drift ... drift ... try to figure it out on your own .. drift more, and you get like 3 guys on the team who are naturally of such star-caliber talent that they can improve with or without coaching, and the rest just keep drifting. It's a damn shame, because with even a little direction, I think we have the talent to make ourselves into a legitimate contender again.

I really can't disagree with much of that. I don't think we have more than 9-7 or 8-8 talent however.

steelreserve
09-29-2014, 04:42 PM
Homeboy? Really?


I was a little put back by that myself.


You've never heard people say that? It really has nothing to do with his race. If you took it that way, sorry.

zulater
09-29-2014, 04:43 PM
Actually, clocking the ball there was dumb. Teams clock the ball too damn much. That was no 20 yard gain where guys where running up to the line. It's second down and 6, run a play. You have to value downs as much as you do clock. A quick sideline pass would have gained a first down, and left you with enough time to try for a td. If the pass fails, you still have 25 seconds left, plus a timeout.





I know. I knew when it happened. Just wonder why Ben didn't know? Was that the plan or did he make that move on his volition?

And it still doesn't explain why or how they burned 1.22 and two time outs in only five plays to that point?