Pouncey is going to be hella expensive to keep in Pittsburgh now.....

[Psycho Ward 86]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000340444/article/alex-mack-to-sign-5year-42m-offer-sheet-with-jags



Alex Mack's future will be decided over the next week. No matter what happens, he's going to be the highest paid center in football.

NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport reports that Mack will sign a five-year, $42 million offer sheet with the Jacksonville Jaguars on Friday.


----------------------

Oh boy....

[Mojouw]

Extend Pouncey now while he has no real leverage. Then hope he outperforms the deal and doesn't holdout?

[ALLD]

If Pouncey ever played a full season I would be concerned.

[Psycho Ward 86]

im still worried because he started his career as a 3x all pro

[Dwinsgames]

I am still in favor of trying to deal him on draft day ...sign Valesco and draft a guy like Stork in the 4th round

[X-Terminator]

I am still in favor of trying to deal him on draft day ...sign Valesco and draft a guy like Stork in the 4th round

I'm in favor of this also. No way should the Steelers pay him the nearly $10 million per year it will take to re-sign him.

[Steeltreal]

Not like we have two top tier Tackles. Whats the problem

[Mojouw]

While I do not relish the idea of having to make Pouncey one of the highest paid players on the team; I do not like the idea of going with Velasco and some dudes. Velasco was on the street prior to signing with the Steelers. While he played decent, several breakdowns that use a good amount of detail rated Velasco as average at best. When he is healthy, Pouncey is well above average.

I also seem to remember whole seasons and one SB loss in particular being marred by playing "just a guy" at center. Velasco is just a guy.

[Hawkman]

I am still in favor of trying to deal him on draft day ...sign Valesco and draft a guy like Stork in the 4th round

Any guarantee when or if Valesco can play next year. Pretty bad injury he sustained.

[pepsyman1]

While I do not relish the idea of having to make Pouncey one of the highest paid players on the team; I do not like the idea of going with Velasco and some dudes. Velasco was on the street prior to signing with the Steelers. While he played decent, several breakdowns that use a good amount of detail rated Velasco as average at best. When he is healthy, Pouncey is well above average.

I also seem to remember whole seasons and one SB loss in particular being marred by playing "just a guy" at center. Velasco is just a guy.

Velasco graded out higher than Pouncey did the previous season, then came in here and stepped into the starting line up on no notice like he'd been playing here for years. If we have him (assuming he's healthy) and Cody Wallace, I'd have no problem seeing Pouncey go. Pouncey is quicker but Velasco is stronger and meaner

[Psycho Ward 86]

if we think wallace can not only hold it down, but play fairly well (I am NOT going back to the sean mahan/jeff hartwig years), then im all for trading pouncey if we can get something along the lines of a 2nd round pick or a 3rd round + 4th round pick for him. Yes, he's coming off an ACl tear, but he has been a 1st team all-pro for 3 out of the 4 years he's been in the league. That is REALLY worth something. how many centers in NFL history can say theyve achieved that? Can you imagine the gold mine of a draft we could have if we had 1 or 2 more early round draft picks from trading pouncey, and maybe 1 more from trading down? Wow. And this is the perfect draft to do that too.

[blackngldblood]

if we think wallace can not only hold it down, but play fairly well (I am NOT going back to the sean mahan/jeff hartwig years), then im all for trading pouncey if we can get something along the lines of a 2nd round pick or a 3rd round + 4th round pick for him. Yes, he's coming off an ACl tear, but he has been a 1st team all-pro for 3 out of the 4 years he's been in the league. That is REALLY worth something. how many centers in NFL history can say theyve achieved that? Can you imagine the gold mine of a draft we could have if we had 1 or 2 more early round draft picks from trading pouncey, and maybe 1 more from trading down? Wow. And this is the perfect draft to do that too.

And guess who might just need a center with a very high draft pick???

For the record, I am not for trading Pouncey. I get the arguments you all make, but this line is MUCH better with Pouncey at the helm. Maybe we can get a great year out of him before we lose him. Or maybe we get Worilds deal done then use the tag on Pouncey next season?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[86WARD]

While I do not relish the idea of having to make Pouncey one of the highest paid players on the team; I do not like the idea of going with Velasco and some dudes. Velasco was on the street prior to signing with the Steelers. While he played decent, several breakdowns that use a good amount of detail rated Velasco as average at best. When he is healthy, Pouncey is well above average.

I also seem to remember whole seasons and one SB loss in particular being marred by playing "just a guy" at center. Velasco is just a guy.

Legursky was actually a bright spot during that Super Bowl. Not sure there would've been much of a difference having Pouncey in there over him. He actually played extremely well.

[GBMelBlount]

I am still in favor of trying to deal him on draft day ...sign Valesco and draft a guy like Stork in the 4th round

This.

[Mojouw]

Legursky was actually a bright spot during that Super Bowl. Not sure there would've been much of a difference having Pouncey in there over him. He actually played extremely well.

I may be remembering things wrong and haven not watched the game in a long time BUT -- I seem to remember the pressure that lead to the pick when the Steelers were deep in their own end came right up the gut. I also seem to remember that Matthews filled through a center/guard gap to blow up Mendenhall and cause the back-breaking fumble. I also have it in my head that Ben had no where to step up in the pocket to all game because the interior of the line got no push. Based on a quick scan of the Youtube highlights, both plays were a combination of the crap sandwhich of Legursky and Kemo not blocking all that well and well, Mendenhall was Mendenhall. ANyways...


As for Velasco -

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/12/fernando-velascos-rough-send-off-due-to-more-than-injury/

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2014/01/pittsburgh-steelers-2014-free-agents-analysis-c-g-fernando-velasco-unrestricted/

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2014/01/steelers-2013-player-evaluations-by-position-centersguards/

[steelreserve]

I doubt Velasco is an option; he tore his Achilles late in the year.

Still, I definitely would rather get what I can for Pouncey now. There's no point in keeping him as a one-year rental, and I also don't want to be paying $10 million for one lineman given our other problems and our cap situation. Not sure what we can do on short notice, but we survived before without Pouncey and we'll do it again; we have to.

Let this be a lesson to all those who say things like "It would be great if we drafted __________ (insert name of offensive lineman) and locked down the left side for 10 years without having to worry about it." Well -- yeah, you do have to worry about it. You have to worry about this. Your blue-chip offensive lineman won't throw many blocks for you after he leaves for Miami, and paying him market value isn't worth it.

[Mojouw]

I doubt Velasco is an option; he tore his Achilles late in the year.

Still, I definitely would rather get what I can for Pouncey now. There's no point in keeping him as a one-year rental, and I also don't want to be paying $10 million for one lineman given our other problems and our cap situation. Not sure what we can do on short notice, but we survived before without Pouncey and we'll do it again; we have to.

Let this be a lesson to all those who say things like "It would be great if we drafted __________ (insert name of offensive lineman) and locked down the left side for 10 years without having to worry about it." Well -- yeah, you do have to worry about it. You have to worry about this. Your blue-chip offensive lineman won't throw many blocks for you after he leaves for Miami, and paying him market value isn't worth it.

Let me attempt to remove all the snark from this question, because I by no means am attempting to start an argument, but a discussion could be fun.

Who are you in favor of paying "market value"? Based on previous posts, the list of NOT worth it seems to include pass rushers, offensive linemen, wide receivers, and safeties.

While I by no means want to stand on the side of handing out money like candy and wrecking a cap structure for years and years, I do believe in paying high caliber talent high caliber money.

Say Pouncey comes back this season and plays at a high level (say top 10 centers in the game) for a full season. I am by no means saying give him stupid money (Alex Mack and the Jags) but paying him as such may not be the worst idea ever. If the Steelers continue to pick outside of the top 10, the will likely never field elite tackles, so having a rock-solid interior of the line may be the best they can hope for.

The value of the contracts is usually not what gets teams into trouble with the cap, it is the restructuring of the guaranteed money. It looks like the Steelers have recently gotten smarter about this. They left themselves "outs" with all of FA contracts this off-season and resisted the urge to restructure Timmons.

[zulater]

I am still in favor of trying to deal him on draft day ...sign Valesco and draft a guy like Stork in the 4th round

Who knows when Velsaco will be back and ready to play? Remember it was a late season achillies injury. So even in a best case scenario he's probably going to start the season on the PUP list. And who's to say he's the same player after the injury? Of course the same questions exists with Pouncey, but at least with Pouncey you should have some sort of grasp on that after spring OTA's.

Gambling on Velasco just doesn't make sense to me. Ride Pouncey out this year and see if you can tag and trade him next offseason.

[Hawkman]

Who knows when Velsaco will be back and ready to play? Remember it was a late season achillies injury. So even in a best case scenario he's probably going to start the season on the PUP list. And who's to say he's the same player after the injury? Of course the same questions exists with Pouncey, but at least with Pouncey you should have some sort of grasp on that after spring OTA's.

Gambling on Velasco just doesn't make sense to me. Ride Pouncey out this year and see if you can tag and trade him next offseason.

This makes the most sense to me.

[Mojouw]

Who knows when Velsaco will be back and ready to play? Remember it was a late season achillies injury. So even in a best case scenario he's probably going to start the season on the PUP list. And who's to say he's the same player after the injury? Of course the same questions exists with Pouncey, but at least with Pouncey you should have some sort of grasp on that after spring OTA's.

Gambling on Velasco just doesn't make sense to me. Ride Pouncey out this year and see if you can tag and trade him next offseason.

Not a bad idea. My concern would be that I can not remember the last "tag and trade" scenario that worked out equally. Usually the other teams know you are desperate to trade a player and will only give pennies on the dollar back.

Why not approach Pouncey with an incentive based extension later this off-season after Munchak et al have a better read on his rehab?

[zulater]

Not a bad idea. My concern would be that I can not remember the last "tag and trade" scenario that worked out equally. Usually the other teams know you are desperate to trade a player and will only give pennies on the dollar back.


Why not approach Pouncey with an incentive based extension later this off-season after Munchak et al have a better read on his rehab?

I'd be fine with that. What I would really like is to have one year of Ben's career where the line was strong and consistent at every position from start to finish. If that results in some offseason decision making or turbulence next offseason, oh well such is life.

I just want that one year where the offense lives up to it's potential, and it starts with the o-line. And to me Pouncey is a big part of that.

[Dwinsgames]

we could probably garner something in the neighborhood of a 2nd and 4th or 5th for Pouncey now ..... Tag n Trade we are luck to get half that ( possibly a 3rd ) we would get that for leaving him walk so why risk the $$'s .....

when healthy he is a very good C , problem is you can not rely on him being healthy and we wont be able to afford him ...

for me , that is reason to trade him and draft a suitable replacement and sign a serviceable vet ...


lets say we could land a 2nd and 4th ...

we could draft one of the top LGs in the draft with the 2nd rounder and get Stork ( who will be more than serviceable ) at C

huge upgrade to one interior spot and slight downgrade at C but Stork lining up between Decastro and someone like Xavier Su'a-Filo or David Yankey is very formidable and one hell of an interior line IMO

[steelreserve]

Let me attempt to remove all the snark from this question, because I by no means am attempting to start an argument, but a discussion could be fun.

Who are you in favor of paying "market value"? Based on previous posts, the list of NOT worth it seems to include pass rushers, offensive linemen, wide receivers, and safeties.

While I by no means want to stand on the side of handing out money like candy and wrecking a cap structure for years and years, I do believe in paying high caliber talent high caliber money.

Say Pouncey comes back this season and plays at a high level (say top 10 centers in the game) for a full season. I am by no means saying give him stupid money (Alex Mack and the Jags) but paying him as such may not be the worst idea ever. If the Steelers continue to pick outside of the top 10, the will likely never field elite tackles, so having a rock-solid interior of the line may be the best they can hope for.

The value of the contracts is usually not what gets teams into trouble with the cap, it is the restructuring of the guaranteed money. It looks like the Steelers have recently gotten smarter about this. They left themselves "outs" with all of FA contracts this off-season and resisted the urge to restructure Timmons.


Don't worry; no offense taken. I complain about overpaying players all the time, and I've not really said much about it beyond an individual basis.

First, I don't think that there's any position except OL where you should NEVER give out a big contract. And even that's not because OL is unimportant, but because it's a weakest-link situation and you have five guys, so you CAN'T do it. Two All-Pros, two average guys and a scrub don't balance each other out and make an above-average line or even an average one; the line as a whole will be as good as the scrub. (Cornerback works the same way, except that there's only two of them.) So unless you go big on all five positions, it does you little good to go big on one or two, and you can't go big on all of them because of the cap. What you want is a balance of above-average guys making medium salaries, and hopefully one or more will be on their rookie contracts and save you some money. Take a look at these examples of how some successful teams handle it vs. some traditionally unsuccessful ones:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,denver-broncos
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,new-england-patriots
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,san-francisco-49ers

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,tampa-bay-buccaneers
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,washington-redskins
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,cleveland-browns
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,cincinnati-bengals


As for big contracts at other positions, it's OK to do that sometimes, but the problem is that at the high end, "market value" gets away from talent very quickly. If you'll excuse the crude drawing, I'd say it looks something like this:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f370/capt_taco/nfl-talent-price-crude-graph_zps2416ce8e.jpg


You've basically got three tiers of salary: The rookie contracts, the veterans making market value, and then the insanely overpriced. Who you want for your best players are the guys just before the elbow of the second big jump - guys who are very good players who contribute 95% of what players in the very top tier do, but for $6M or $8M instead of $11M or $14M. Antonio Brown is a perfect example of that; Casey Hampton and A. Smith were before they declined; Keenan Lewis would've been one if he wasn't playing for New Orleans; Timmons would've been another except that we outbid ourselves and put him in the wrong tier.

The problem with players in the very top pay tier is that they all get paid like they're the Defensive Player of the Year, but only a couple actually are that good. Some guys actually do justify that salary, but it's rare. In our entire recent history, I'd say Troy Polamalu and James Harrison are the only ones who have been that good.

If there's a guy whose "market value" is the same as Troy Polamalu or James Harrison in their primes, but he's not Troy Polamalu or James Harrison in his prime, then you've got a problem, and really the only thing you ought to do is let it be somebody else's problem. Worilds at $10M is exactly that; Worilds at $7M or maybe even $8M is not. DeSean Jackson at $11M is that kind of problem; DeSean Jackson on Brown's salary is not. Just about any position can make it into the top tier if the player is really that level of a difference-maker, but very, very few are, and it's a very, very expensive mistake to make. 80%-90% of big-money contracts end up not being justified, so 80%-90% of the time I definitely am against them.

Offensive line is the one special category because while their salary can make it well into the $10M+ top tier, the value of any one player maxes out before that big jump, so that is why the big salary there is off the board entirely as far as I'm concerned.

[86WARD]

I may be remembering things wrong and haven not watched the game in a long time BUT -- I seem to remember the pressure that lead to the pick when the Steelers were deep in their own end came right up the gut. I also seem to remember that Matthews filled through a center/guard gap to blow up Mendenhall and cause the back-breaking fumble. I also have it in my head that Ben had no where to step up in the pocket to all game because the interior of the line got no push. Based on a quick scan of the Youtube highlights, both plays were a combination of the crap sandwhich of Legursky and Kemo not blocking all that well and well, Mendenhall was Mendenhall.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/12/u2e2ejyr.jpg

[Shoes]

we could probably garner something in the neighborhood of a 2nd and 4th or 5th for Pouncey now ..... Tag n Trade we are luck to get half that ( possibly a 3rd ) we would get that for leaving him walk so why risk the $$'s .....

when healthy he is a very good C , problem is you can not rely on him being healthy and we wont be able to afford him ...

for me , that is reason to trade him and draft a suitable replacement and sign a serviceable vet ...


lets say we could land a 2nd and 4th ...

we could draft one of the top LGs in the draft with the 2nd rounder and get Stork ( who will be more than serviceable ) at C

huge upgrade to one interior spot and slight downgrade at C but Stork lining up between Decastro and someone like Xavier Su'a-Filo or David Yankey is very formidable and one hell of an interior line IMO


Makes sense to me.

[fansince'76]

I may be remembering things wrong and haven not watched the game in a long time BUT -- I seem to remember the pressure that lead to the pick when the Steelers were deep in their own end came right up the gut.

Nope. That play broke down primarily because of that no blocking, holding-call-waiting-to-happen waste of space Kemoeatu getting owned and being walked right back into Roethlisberger's grill (as usual), not Legursky. By a backup NT, no less.

Here's the whole play in nausea-inducing detail - pay particular attention at about 53 seconds into the clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erzMuwXDRK8

86WARD has it right - in fact, Legursky may have been the only bright spot for us in that whole shitty game. Legursky wasn't much of a guard, but he was a damned good center.

[Mojouw]

Don't worry; no offense taken. I complain about overpaying players all the time, and I've not really said much about it beyond an individual basis.

First, I don't think that there's any position except OL where you should NEVER give out a big contract. And even that's not because OL is unimportant, but because it's a weakest-link situation and you have five guys, so you CAN'T do it. Two All-Pros, two average guys and a scrub don't balance each other out and make an above-average line or even an average one; the line as a whole will be as good as the scrub. (Cornerback works the same way, except that there's only two of them.) So unless you go big on all five positions, it does you little good to go big on one or two, and you can't go big on all of them because of the cap. What you want is a balance of above-average guys making medium salaries, and hopefully one or more will be on their rookie contracts and save you some money. Take a look at these examples of how some successful teams handle it vs. some traditionally unsuccessful ones:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,denver-broncos
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,new-england-patriots
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,san-francisco-49ers

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,tampa-bay-buccaneers
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,washington-redskins
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,cleveland-browns
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/interactive/2013/jan/30/nfl-salaries-team-position#pittsburgh-steelers,cincinnati-bengals


As for big contracts at other positions, it's OK to do that sometimes, but the problem is that at the high end, "market value" gets away from talent very quickly. If you'll excuse the crude drawing, I'd say it looks something like this:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f370/capt_taco/nfl-talent-price-crude-graph_zps2416ce8e.jpg


You've basically got three tiers of salary: The rookie contracts, the veterans making market value, and then the insanely overpriced. Who you want for your best players are the guys just before the elbow of the second big jump - guys who are very good players who contribute 95% of what players in the very top tier do, but for $6M or $8M instead of $11M or $14M. Antonio Brown is a perfect example of that; Casey Hampton and A. Smith were before they declined; Keenan Lewis would've been one if he wasn't playing for New Orleans; Timmons would've been another except that we outbid ourselves and put him in the wrong tier.

The problem with players in the very top pay tier is that they all get paid like they're the Defensive Player of the Year, but only a couple actually are that good. Some guys actually do justify that salary, but it's rare. In our entire recent history, I'd say Troy Polamalu and James Harrison are the only ones who have been that good.

If there's a guy whose "market value" is the same as Troy Polamalu or James Harrison in their primes, but he's not Troy Polamalu or James Harrison in his prime, then you've got a problem, and really the only thing you ought to do is let it be somebody else's problem. Worilds at $10M is exactly that; Worilds at $7M or maybe even $8M is not. DeSean Jackson at $11M is that kind of problem; DeSean Jackson on Brown's salary is not. Just about any position can make it into the top tier if the player is really that level of a difference-maker, but very, very few are, and it's a very, very expensive mistake to make. 80%-90% of big-money contracts end up not being justified, so 80%-90% of the time I definitely am against them.

Offensive line is the one special category because while their salary can make it well into the $10M+ top tier, the value of any one player maxes out before that big jump, so that is why the big salary there is off the board entirely as far as I'm concerned.

I can totally get on board with that. I did not follow all the links yet, but I will. I think I can see and agree with you on almost everything. I think my only point is that Pouncey at 5-7 million per might be okay, but not 8-10. Not sure if you would agree, but that is where I was coming from.

- - - Updated - - -


Nope. That play broke down primarily because of that no blocking, holding-call-waiting-to-happen waste of space Kemoeatu getting owned and being walked right back into Roethlisberger's grill (as usual), not Legursky. By a backup NT, no less.

Here's the whole play in nausea-inducing detail - pay particular attention at about 53 seconds into the clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erzMuwXDRK8

86WARD has it right - in fact, Legursky may have been the only bright spot for us in that whole shitty game. Legursky wasn't much of a guard, but he was a damned good center.

To both you and 86Ward, I stand corrected. I had remembered incorrectly. Legursky got blowed up on the fumble, but the rest was basically Kemo. In fact some other highlights indicate it was Kemo all night. I should have remembered how terrible that cat was.

[86WARD]

Just his name makes me cringe...not as bad as the name Mahan though...lol

[steelreserve]

I can totally get on board with that. I did not follow all the links yet, but I will. I think I can see and agree with you on almost everything. I think my only point is that Pouncey at 5-7 million per might be okay, but not 8-10. Not sure if you would agree, but that is where I was coming from.


If we could keep Pouncey for $5M-$7M, I would be completely behind it. $7M for me is at the very top of what I would want to pay even the very best lineman, but he is one of the few that really is that good. For $10M ... well, like I said, even the best lineman in the world can't make $10M worth of difference.

Unfortunately (for us), with a guy in Pouncey's situation, $5M is almost laughable and $7M is at the very low end of "market value" ... the only way I would even see $7M happening is if the injury plays into it. As in, maybe he thinks playing out the one remaining season to get to UFA is too much of a risk, so he's willing to trade a little of the top-end money for security. I don't think any sense of "team loyalty" or "a chance to be in a winning environment" or "loving the city of Pittsburgh" is really going to do it; everything I've seen would indicate that he's going to be a complete mercenary.

[Mojouw]

If we could keep Pouncey for $5M-$7M, I would be completely behind it. $7M for me is at the very top of what I would want to pay even the very best lineman, but he is one of the few that really is that good. For $10M ... well, like I said, even the best lineman in the world can't make $10M worth of difference.

Unfortunately (for us), with a guy in Pouncey's situation, $5M is almost laughable and $7M is at the very low end of "market value" ... the only way I would even see $7M happening is if the injury plays into it. As in, maybe he thinks playing out the one remaining season to get to UFA is too much of a risk, so he's willing to trade a little of the top-end money for security. I don't think any sense of "team loyalty" or "a chance to be in a winning environment" or "loving the city of Pittsburgh" is really going to do it; everything I've seen would indicate that he's going to be a complete mercenary.

Yeah it is pretty clear that the Pouncey Boys (kinda like a messed up version of the Hardy Boys) are in this to get paid. Although "our" Pouncey does seem to be a bit better of a human being than his brother.

[Craic]

If we could keep Pouncey for $5M-$7M, I would be completely behind it. $7M for me is at the very top of what I would want to pay even the very best lineman, but he is one of the few that really is that good. For $10M ... well, like I said, even the best lineman in the world can't make $10M worth of difference.

Unfortunately (for us), with a guy in Pouncey's situation, $5M is almost laughable and $7M is at the very low end of "market value" ... the only way I would even see $7M happening is if the injury plays into it. As in, maybe he thinks playing out the one remaining season to get to UFA is too much of a risk, so he's willing to trade a little of the top-end money for security. I don't think any sense of "team loyalty" or "a chance to be in a winning environment" or "loving the city of Pittsburgh" is really going to do it; everything I've seen would indicate that he's going to be a complete mercenary.

I understand what you're saying here, and you make a lot of sense, but I also can't get the years between Hartings and Pouncey out of my head. With our purge of the big contracts on defense, not to mention that we'll lose Troy's contract in a year or two, I wouldn't be surprised if they go a bit higher than you're suggesting. However, I also would expect a decent portion of that contract to be based on incentives and elevators for Pouncey staying healthy. Because on the other hand, you also hit the nail on the head when you mentioned earlier about him and injuries.

[steelreserve]

I understand what you're saying here, and you make a lot of sense, but I also can't get the years between Hartings and Pouncey out of my head. With our purge of the big contracts on defense, not to mention that we'll lose Troy's contract in a year or two, I wouldn't be surprised if they go a bit higher than you're suggesting. However, I also would expect a decent portion of that contract to be based on incentives and elevators for Pouncey staying healthy. Because on the other hand, you also hit the nail on the head when you mentioned earlier about him and injuries.

I want to keep the guy, but I don't think trading dollars for dollars straight up with expiring contracts is the answer. The big contracts on defense were killing us, and we'd basically be exchanging that problem for the same one with a different guy.

What we might be able to do for Pouncey is work out a contract that starts out at $7M and steps up a little bit, because the gradual increase of the cap will, for once, actually ease the later years. Something like 7-7-8-8-10, for 5 years and $40M, which would be right in the neighborhood of the top centers, and if we gave a lot of guaranteed money, might be an attractive offer if the injury thing is a concern on the player's part. Keeping the salary flat and realistic, not a huge backload, would make it something that we could actually pay out to the end, and skip the last year to save half of it if we had to.

Or, we could go something like 7-7-8-12-13, for a "5-year, $47M" contract with less guaranteed money, but what it really means is a 3-year, $22M contract and then see where the chips fall. That is the stupid way to do it for the player because there's no way in hell he'll ever see the last two years at full salary - but it seems the more realistic because it not only takes care of the injury/security worries, but also strokes the ego for being "highest paid." It also leaves us an out in that we can drop the last two years for a minimal dead money penalty, and leaves the player a perceived out because "if they cut me, I can just go get another blockbuster contract" -- never mind how often THAT goes awry; his agent will talk him into it.

Either of those would be pretty palatable to me; hell, after the Woodley money shows up June 1, we could fit it in comfortably this season without screwing up our cap, and no big future worries either. The one thing that would kill us is something dumb like 2-3-7-13-15 with a huge signing bonus so that we have a "cap-friendly contract," but actually it's just an irresponsible kick-the-can-down-the-road contract and after three years we face another Woodley situation. If we do a deal like that, it shows Khan hasn't learned his lesson and it's amateur hour.

Anyway, if we can get this worked out, I would say the next priority this season for the offensive line is figuring out which of Gilbert and Adams is worth keeping as the RT and backup LT; ride the Beachum and DeCastro rookie deals, and hope that a mid-round pick turns into the long-term solution at LG because Foster is looking like a stopgap. DeCastro we're solid on for three more seasons at reasonable pay, since we have the fifth-year option on him as a first-round pick. Beachum is an interesting case - we probably can't extend him at "market value" now, even though it'd be the cheapest; if we do it after this season, we can get him for a medium-value contract for a lineman, but we'd be taking a risk; if he's worth keeping but we wait until his deal expires, we either pay through the nose or lose him. Hopefully he has another decent but not stellar year, and we extend him at season's end for something like $4M escalating to $6M, which is exactly what you need to do for the line.

[Dwinsgames]

if we are not going to trade him and going to pay him , move him to guard where he has to earn his keep more and solidifies that LG spot at a higher level than Foster has been able to do as of late

[Mojouw]

I think that a responsible extension for Pouncey at center, DeCastro solidifying one of the guard spots, Munchak fixing Gilbert and Adams as the tackles and Beachum becoming the new starting other guard would be the "dream" scenario. I suspect that the nature of the picks made in the draft will let us all know if Munchak and others think that can happen.

I doubt either Gilbert and Adams can be salvaged, let alone both. Can't typically fix slow and stupid.

[steelreserve]

if we are not going to trade him and going to pay him , move him to guard where he has to earn his keep more and solidifies that LG spot at a higher level than Foster has been able to do as of late

That would be great, but then who plays center?

[Psycho Ward 86]

if we are not going to trade him and going to pay him , move him to guard where he has to earn his keep more and solidifies that LG spot at a higher level than Foster has been able to do as of late

that would be such a minor improvement at guard. Foster is doing a good job. besides, if we did that, it would be a significant drop off at center and nullify the move. if we keep Pouncey we need to keep him where he's best.

If we need some anal fisting action on the field to piss off so-and-so, then we'll throw wallace back in there

[Dwinsgames]

that would be such a minor improvement at guard. Foster is doing a good job. besides, if we did that, it would be a significant drop off at center and nullify the move. if we keep Pouncey we need to keep him where he's best.

If we need some anal fisting action on the field to piss off so-and-so, then we'll throw wallace back in there

assuming we would not then draft a guy to play C and continue to work Wallace as a backup ...

but I get it why not just draft a guard ...

I like Foster do not get me wrong but I like him as a RG he plays way better on the right side than on the left , he is to slow for a ZBS starting guard and with Munch in as line coach I suspect we will give that scheme another go as he likes it ....

another option is a LT and move Beachum to LG where I think ( and said it back in December here someplace ) he could be an all pro LG with his skill set IMO and someone just brought it up again recently here ...

I do not think Adams is the future at LT and I know Gilbert isnt but I do hold out Hope Adams can over take Gilbert at RT ...time will tell being a year removed from stabbing wounds should make him less tentative and that is my excuse for him last year right or wrong ....

[Psycho Ward 86]

assuming we would not then draft a guy to play C and continue to work Wallace as a backup ...

but I get it why not just draft a guard ...

I like Foster do not get me wrong but I like him as a RG he plays way better on the right side than on the left , he is to slow for a ZBS starting guard and with Munch in as line coach I suspect we will give that scheme another go as he likes it ....

another option is a LT and move Beachum to LG where I think ( and said it back in December here someplace ) he could be an all pro LG with his skill set IMO and someone just brought it up again recently here ...

I do not think Adams is the future at LT and I know Gilbert isnt but I do hold out Hope Adams can over take Gilbert at RT ...time will tell being a year removed from stabbing wounds should make him less tentative and that is my excuse for him last year right or wrong ....

again, any perceived improvements are nullified by downgrades at other spots. Move foster to RG, then you are moving Decastro out of his natural spot that he has been playing all through college and his NFL career. The coaching staff was so insistent on making him comfortable that they kept him there. He is already playing at a probowl level at right guard. dont fuck with that, just let it happen. No reason to get overzealous about tapping every last bit of efficiency out of the linemen with position shifts when we have the best O-line coach in the business.

[Dwinsgames]

again, any perceived improvements are nullified by downgrades at other spots. Move foster to RG, then you are moving Decastro out of his natural spot that he has been playing all through college and his NFL career. The coaching staff was so insistent on making him comfortable that they kept him there. He is already playing at a probowl level at right guard. dont fuck with that, just let it happen. No reason to get overzealous about tapping every last bit of efficiency out of the linemen with position shifts when we have the best O-line coach in the business.


never suggested moving Decastro ...

just upgrading Foster ...

I would be fine with a slightly better than average or even average Center , if both my Guards where top of the mark ....

its all about the money and proficiency for me ... I do not want to pay a Center the kind of coin it is going to take to keep Pouncey he will be wanting twice what I would be willing to pay for the pos.

that being said for me , if he stays at a higher dollar than 5 mill or so a year then he has to play Guard ( and I think he would be very good at it in a ZBS )

its not about who is right and who is wrong , its just opinions on what the position is worth and to me much over 5 mill is over paying for the pos ...

so again no hard feelings if they trade him away , draft a talented LG with one of the picks we could probably get for him and use the other pick on a Center ...

or draft a LT and put Beachum at LG move Adams to RT and Gilbert becomes first man of the bench as a backup swing tackle and draft a Center in the second round for one of the picks we could get for Pouncey and use the later pick to supplement elsewhere

[Psycho Ward 86]

never suggested moving Decastro ...

just upgrading Foster ...

I would be fine with a slightly better than average or even average Center , if both my Guards where top of the mark ....

its all about the money and proficiency for me ... I do not want to pay a Center the kind of coin it is going to take to keep Pouncey he will be wanting twice what I would be willing to pay for the pos.

that being said for me , if he stays at a higher dollar than 5 mill or so a year then he has to play Guard ( and I think he would be very good at it in a ZBS )

its not about who is right and who is wrong , its just opinions on what the position is worth and to me much over 5 mill is over paying for the pos ...

so again no hard feelings if they trade him away , draft a talented LG with one of the picks we could probably get for him and use the other pick on a Center ...

or draft a LT and put Beachum at LG move Adams to RT and Gilbert becomes first man of the bench as a backup swing tackle and draft a Center in the second round for one of the picks we could get for Pouncey and use the later pick to supplement elsewhere

You suggested upgrading Foster, and said you like him as a right guard. Decastro is very involved in that even if you dont mention him by name. Basically if Pouncey stays, moving anyone in the interior of our line will result in minimal to no improvement in one spot, and significant downgrading in another. For 42 of the past 50 seasons, our center has been manned by Ray Mansfield, Mike Webster, Dermontti Dawson, Jeff Hartings, and Maurkice Pouncey. History says keeping that kind of talent put is a good idea.

i guess it is a matter of opinion on what you value more, but im still trying to get the bad taste of sean mahan and justin hartwig out of my mouth so maybe thats why

[86WARD]

if we are not going to trade him and going to pay him , move him to guard where he has to earn his keep more and solidifies that LG spot at a higher level than Foster has been able to do as of late

100% in support of moving Pouncey to guard!!

[Dwinsgames]

i guess it is a matter of opinion on what you value more, but im still trying to get the bad taste of sean mahan and justin hartwig out of my mouth so maybe thats why


I can appreciate that but fact is one of two things is going to happen next off season ...

1) we will over pay Pouncey

2) Pouncey will be gone Via free agency and we will get a 3rd round comp pick in the 2016 draft for him ..

can't afford to do 1)

can't replace him with 2) and even if you could it would be a year after the fact when you get the comp selection ...


so for me it makes better sense to trade him now and get 2-3 times as much for him as we would by renting him 1 more year and getting a comp pick a year after he is gone .....

[86WARD]

I can appreciate that but fact is one of two things is going to happen next off season ...

1) we will over pay Pouncey

2) Pouncey will be gone Via free agency and we will get a 3rd round comp pick in the 2016 draft for him ..

can't afford to do 1)

can't replace him with 2) and even if you could it would be a year after the fact when you get the comp selection ...


so for me it makes better sense to trade him now and get 2-3 times as much for him as we would by renting him 1 more year and getting a comp pick a year after he is gone .....

* see Emmanuel Sanders. But on a larger scale.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I can appreciate that but fact is one of two things is going to happen next off season ...

1) we will over pay Pouncey

2) Pouncey will be gone Via free agency and we will get a 3rd round comp pick in the 2016 draft for him ..

can't afford to do 1)

can't replace him with 2) and even if you could it would be a year after the fact when you get the comp selection ...


so for me it makes better sense to trade him now and get 2-3 times as much for him as we would by renting him 1 more year and getting a comp pick a year after he is gone .....

again, im in support of trading pouncey. we were just discussing scenarios in case he isnt traded. overpaying for a player in the professional sports world isnt that big of a deal. No team in the NFL gets away with keeping all of their good players at market price or below market price. It will always take a little extra to keep one or some of them around

[zulater]

I'm in support of keeping Pouncey and building a resurgent young line around him and DeCastro.


Bottom line is I don't get any indication the Steelers plan on doing anything with Pouncey other than plugging him in at center for as many games as he's healthy for. And I personally don't see that as a bad thing. So rather than obsess on what they could or should do I'm looking forward to see what Pouncey does flanked by a competent guard on either side for just about the first time in his career.

The geniuses over at Profootball focus try to make out that Pouncey's play was middle of the pack in 2012. Overall it was, but that had more to do with the instability of the guard play around him. There was about a 5 game window in mid season when Colon had finally settled into place and Foster was playing competent enough where Pouncey was indeed the best center in football in 2012. Back to back 100 yard games by mutts like Dwyer and Redman tell the story there.

But then Colon's season got ended by injury, and Foster got shifted to the other side of the line ( where he clearly was unsettled at the time), then they even tried Pouncey at guard for a game etc... and the interior line went from being a huge plus to utter chaos.

So getting back to the present, I can't wait to see what Pouncey does with a full season ( hopefully- fingers crossed) with DeCastro and Foster settled in as good competent line mates. This could prove to be a very special year for the line. I intend on enjoying it.