Worilds wants to stay -- as starter

[stillers4me]

Jason Worilds (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/13306/jason-worilds) is open to re-signing with the Pittsburgh Steelers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/pit/pittsburgh-steelers) before he becomes an unrestricted free agent in March, with one caveat: The outside linebacker has to be confident he has secured a starting job.

Worilds led the Steelers with eight sacks in 2013, starting 11 games -- one more than he had started in his first three years combined -- during a breakout season. He also finished second on the team with 29 quarterback pressures and recorded 63 tackles with two forced fumbles.


When asked if he wants to stay in Pittsburgh, Worilds told ESPN.com during a telephone interview, "If the circumstances are right, for sure. They haven't been right for me in the past. I wouldn't want to fall back into (not starting) again."..........

read more @ http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10384781/jason-worilds-open-re-signing-pittsburgh-steelers-named-starter

[zulater]

Ultimatum time! :lol:

[Dwinsgames]

then if I am the steelers I say ok Jason here is what we would consider .... and give him a fair contract that is low end the first two years to help off set the cut of Woodley , then higher once woodley is off the books , if he takes it June 1 cut woodley if he does not then you know he wasn't serious about staying to begin with

[Psycho Ward 86]

im really glad worilds said he'll only stay as a starter. This all but forces the front office to designate woodley a june 1st casualty.

make it happen

[86WARD]

im really glad worilds said he'll only stay as a starter. This all but forces the front office to designate woodley a june 1st casualty.

make it happen.

Yes. Please.

[Devilsdancefloor]

im really glad worilds said he'll only stay as a starter. This all but forces the front office to designate woodley a june 1st casualty.

make it happen

Agreed

[Steelerette]

Works for me!

[Dwinsgames]

then again ....

Never make a major decision based solely on money. (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/chucknoll539306.html)
Chuck Noll (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/chucknoll539306.html)

[Steelerette]

then again ....

Never make a major decision based solely on money. (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/chucknoll539306.html)
Chuck Noll (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/chucknoll539306.html)

Money talks...

But it don't sing and dance and it don't walk.

In the end it will depend on whether they see Worilds as the future of the position and if they think Woodley is done for I guess. I can't blame Worilds for wanting to be the starter but it's a gamble either way. I'm ready to move on from Wood, great in flashes when healthy but when is that? We knew the right time to let go of Kendrell Bell too.

I guess the difference is we're paying Woodley a lot next year whether he's here or not. I'm with you, have Worilds put his money where his mouth is, okay fine you can be the future, here are the terms, since we have to move Woodley to accommodate you here's your deal structure, take it or don't.

[steeldawg]

It's not about staying in Pittsburgh, basically what he saying I proved I'm a starter and I want to be paid like it. He is going to take the biggest offer you can bank on that, so if we try and low ball him he is gone for sure.

[Dwinsgames]

Money talks...

But it don't sing and dance and it don't walk.



but but but ....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQLWF_ItzYs



he could say ....

Goodbye to you my trusted friend ....he had his season in the sun

[steelerdude15]

then if I am the steelers I say ok Jason here is what we would consider .... and give him a fair contract that is low end the first two years to help off set the cut of Woodley , then higher once woodley is off the books , if he takes it June 1 cut woodley if he does not then you know he wasn't serious about staying to begin with

I like this idea.

[Psycho Ward 86]

then again ....

Never make a major decision based solely on money. (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/chucknoll539306.html)
Chuck Noll (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/chucknoll539306.html)

shut up just this once chuck!!! :chuckle:

[Mojouw]

Worilds and a healthy re-structured Woodley on the outside with Jones and Timmons in the middle?

[Dwinsgames]

Worilds and a healthy re-structured Woodley on the outside with Jones and Timmons in the middle?

on paper it sounds mighty tempting , but when you look a bit deeper at it Worilds is night and day dependent upon the side he is on and we have no evidence Woodley can play the opposite side either ... top it off with the word restructure ( impart why we are in this mess of a contract with Woodley now ) it would take something vastly different than a restructure IMO to make me take the bait , something more like an extension adding 3 years to his current deal with the same exact amount of money being paid out and I highly doubt Woodley would go for anything that extreme ( he would probably consider it playing for free for 3 years ) and not train at all and come to camp looking like Big Snacks twin brother

[blackngldblood]

on paper it sounds mighty tempting , but when you look a bit deeper at it Worilds is night and day dependent upon the side he is on and we have no evidence Woodley can play the opposite side either ... top it off with the word restructure ( impart why we are in this mess of a contract with Woodley now ) it would take something vastly different than a restructure IMO to make me take the bait , something more like an extension adding 3 years to his current deal with the same exact amount of money being paid out and I highly doubt Woodley would go for anything that extreme ( he would probably consider it playing for free for 3 years ) and not train at all and come to camp looking like Big Snacks twin brother

.....and then we move him to nose and save a draft pick for three years?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Psycho Ward 86]

Worilds and a healthy re-structured Woodley on the outside with Jones and Timmons in the middle?

phrases like this make a grown man want to cry

[MrPgh]

No more restructures. Woodley needs to be off this team. Ever since he got that new contract he's been out of shape, hurt, and has had a shitty attitude. He's the kind of poison that needs to be out of that locker room.

[Texasteel]

No more restructures. Woodley needs to be off this team. Ever since he got that new contract he's been out of shape, hurt, and has had a shitty attitude. He's the kind of poison that needs to be out of that locker room.


Personally, I would be surprised if Woodley is not with us next year. I would also be a little surprised if Worlds is. That not saying it couldn't or won't happen, but I just don't think so.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Personally, I would be surprised if Woodley is not with us next year. I would also be a little surprised if Worlds is. That not saying it couldn't or won't happen, but I just don't think so.

if both of those occur, it would just be a monumental mistake.

[Texasteel]

if both of those occur, it would just be a monumental mistake.

Very well could be a mistake, but it may be a mistake they are forced into.

[Steelerette]

I think the Steelers only really have one shot at keeping Worilds. They have to say okay, put your money where your mouth is: you can be the future, but here's how the front of your contract is structured because we have to clean up Woodley to keep you. At that point it's all on Worilds and his agent, whether we have him or Woodley going forward.

And Worilds is probably justified in testing the market. If some team sees something they like in him and starts a bidding war, well there you have it.

[steeldawg]

I think the Steelers only really have one shot at keeping Worilds. They have to say okay, put your money where your mouth is: you can be the future, but here's how the front of your contract is structured because we have to clean up Woodley to keep you. At that point it's all on Worilds and his agent, whether we have him or Woodley going forward.

And Worilds is probably justified in testing the market. If some team sees something they like in him and starts a bidding war, well there you have it.

That sounds good on paper but in the nfl players need to strike while they are hot so I don't think worlids is going to take a back loaded deal. With the contracts not guaranteed the risk for him to take everything on the back end is too great, especially for a guy who is about to hit the free agent market and will get a nice deal with guaranteed money up front.

[Steelerette]

That sounds good on paper but in the nfl players need to strike while they are hot so I don't think worlids is going to take a back loaded deal. With the contracts not guaranteed the risk for him to take everything on the back end is too great, especially for a guy who is about to hit the free agent market and will get a nice deal with guaranteed money up front.Which is why Texasteel is saying that we probably don't get to keep Worilds.

[steelerdude15]

if both of those occur, it would just be a monumental mistake.

IMO, its one or the other. I highly doubt the Steelers would be able to keep both with the cap being in such bad shape.

[Texasteel]

IMO, its one or the other. I highly doubt the Steelers would be able to keep both with the cap being in such bad shape.

I'm no capoligist, in fact the whole thing confuses me, but if they cut Woodley wouldn't that hit next years cap even harder? That could make signing Worilds even harder.

[steelreserve]

I'm no capoligist, in fact the whole thing confuses me, but if they cut Woodley wouldn't that hit next years cap even harder? That could make signing Worilds even harder.

The way it works with Woodley is roughly as follows. At this point, cutting Woodley saves us money over keeping him, since his remaining dead money is approximately equal to what the cap hit would be for paying him to be on the roster. The only question is how the money would be distributed - over one year or two.

An important thing to remember is that if he is a June 1 cut, we don't actually "get" the cap space freed up until June 1 and still have to stay under the cap until then. Free agency starts in March. So anything we offered Worilds would have to be before any Woodley savings. That's why June 1 cuts are a lot more helpful in signing players under contract to an extension than they are for signing or re-signing UFAs. I'm sure we can think of something creative, like a June 2 roster bonus for Worilds, to massage a little more money out of it, but it's a less than ideal situation.


Do nothing:
$14M cap hit 2014
$15M cap hit in 2015

Cut before June 1:
$14M cap hit 2014
$0 cap hit 2015

Cut after June 1
$7M cap hit 2014
$7M cap hit 2015

Cut next offseason:
$14M cap hit 2014
$7M cap hit 2015


A common mistake that people make is saying "Yes, if we cut Woodley June 1, we save $7M in 2014, but we give it back by having $7M in dead money in 2015." That's not exactly true. We'd have to absorb that $7M in 2015 almost no matter what we do. If he was still on the roster, his cap hit would be $7M PLUS his base salary. The only way to get out of it would be to take the full $14M cap hit this coming year, which for some reason I don't think we'll do.

[MrPgh]

Hopefully the Steelers cut him before June 1st. That's $14M that's dead money in 2014, but after that his contract is off the Steelers' books. They would be much better off for it after the 2014 season.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Hopefully the Steelers cut him before June 1st. That's $14M that's dead money in 2014, but after that his contract is off the Steelers' books. They would be much better off for it after the 2014 season.

thats insane. do it before june 1st and you can expect to kiss all of our free agents good bye. if we someone how manage to keep some of the ones we still want, that will only be because we cut key players and restructured even more.

[steelreserve]

Hopefully the Steelers cut him before June 1st. That's $14M that's dead money in 2014, but after that his contract is off the Steelers' books. They would be much better off for it after the 2014 season.

You would think ... that's also the one way to pretty much guarantee we can't re-sign Worilds or bring in anyone new. However, as far as key players with expiring contracts go, this offseason is pretty tame: Worilds would be the biggest loss, and I don't exactly think that would kill us. If there was one year when it would cost us the least to just swallow the rest of the Woodley Contract shit sandwich all at once, this would be it.

[MrPgh]

thats insane. do it before june 1st and you can expect to kiss all of our free agents good bye. if we someone how manage to keep some of the ones we still want, that will only be because we cut key players and restructured even more.

The Steelers made this shit sandwich by restructures and keeping guys on defense for too long, time for them to take a bite out of it. If they did cut Woodley after June 1st I could live with that, but let's not pretend that extra $7M will turn them into a Super Bowl contender in 2014.

[Mojouw]

Okay. I'll bite. If the Steelers cut Woodley and take the whole $14 million pill in one 2014 dose, who in the hell plays OLB?

That would leave the team with Jones, Carter, and a whole teaming lot of nothing. Based on Jones' inability to rush the passer, although I get why he may improve, and Carter's inability to do much more than be the LB'er version of Curtis Brown -- that does not sound like a high quality plan.

That leaves the Steelers starting option(s) on the other side of Jones to be another 1st or 2nd round pick or a veteran re-tread. Is $7 million in cap relief worth another high draft pick at OLB?

[MrPgh]

Okay. I'll bite. If the Steelers cut Woodley and take the whole $14 million pill in one 2014 dose, who in the hell plays OLB?

That would leave the team with Jones, Carter, and a whole teaming lot of nothing. Based on Jones' inability to rush the passer, although I get why he may improve, and Carter's inability to do much more than be the LB'er version of Curtis Brown -- that does not sound like a high quality plan.

That leaves the Steelers starting option(s) on the other side of Jones to be another 1st or 2nd round pick or a veteran re-tread. Is $7 million in cap relief worth another high draft pick at OLB?

Maybe that depends on how the Steelers really feel about Jason Worlids. His first three years he was always hurt and wasn't anything special when he did get on the field. He certainly turned it on during the last 8 games this season, but is that the real Jason Worlids or is that a guy just looking for a new contract? If the latter is true, then maybe the Steelers will want to look at taking another OLB. It's not like this defense is close to being on a level with Seattle's defense with or without Jason Worlids. The Steelers are beyond retooling the defense, this needs to be a full-blown rebuild.

[GBMelBlount]

thats insane. do it before june 1st and you can expect to kiss all of our free agents good bye. if we someone how manage to keep some of the ones we still want, that will only be because we cut key players and restructured even more.

If we can save a significant amount of money by cutting Woodsloth early and then restructure as needed to ease the lost next year wouldn't we likely come out ahead?

[Mojouw]

Maybe that depends on how the Steelers really feel about Jason Worlids. His first three years he was always hurt and wasn't anything special when he did get on the field. He certainly turned it on during the last 8 games this season, but is that the real Jason Worlids or is that a guy just looking for a new contract? If the latter is true, then maybe the Steelers will want to look at taking another OLB. It's not like this defense is close to being on a level with Seattle's defense with or without Jason Worlids. The Steelers are beyond retooling the defense, this needs to be a full-blown rebuild.

Valid point. Worilds looked like a different player this year. Who knows maybe he is better at LOLB and is not ever going to consistently beat LT from the ROLB spot? Maybe he finally got healthy and put it all together. I don't know.

All I do know is that if the Steelers cut Woodley prior to June 1st that means they will definitely not have Worilds at either OLB spot. Or Woodley. Which was the point of my original question...

If Woodley gets cut prior to June 1, it is almost impossible to sign Worilds. So who plays OLB?

It is a crap situation, but Woodley is worth far more to this team on the roster than he is off of it in my opinion.

[XxKnightxX]

Not for nothing, but have you seen Woodleys FB posts and Tweets over the past couple of weeks? This dude is trying to warm himself up to us again. Talking about Steelers fans and all. Ugh man can you just be healthy and shut us up. I think whats pissing off us the most is Woodleys helath and lack of on field presence. Id still say cut him since hes proving to be more of a liability. But we might be stuck in the shitter with him for another year or so.

[steelreserve]

Valid point. Worilds looked like a different player this year. Who knows maybe he is better at LOLB and is not ever going to consistently beat LT from the ROLB spot? Maybe he finally got healthy and put it all together. I don't know.

All I do know is that if the Steelers cut Woodley prior to June 1st that means they will definitely not have Worilds at either OLB spot. Or Woodley. Which was the point of my original question...

If Woodley gets cut prior to June 1, it is almost impossible to sign Worilds. So who plays OLB?

It is a crap situation, but Woodley is worth far more to this team on the roster than he is off of it in my opinion.


There is no good option to take over. Cutting Woodley before June 1 is basically acknowledging that it's a rebuilding year and we're not going to have a capable OLB on one side until 2015.

I think it would be somewhat counterproductive to lose two LBs in the process of cutting one, but you also have to remember that if we do the June 1 cut and pay Worilds on the order of $7M a year, combine that with Woodley's dead money and we're still paying $14M a year for one OLB position the next two seasons. Maybe we really do scrap it and start over. As I said before, losing Worilds would be a bummer but it wouldn't kill us. He had a good run at the end of the season, but there's no guarantee that will go on forever.

[MrPgh]

Ike might factor into this as well. I read somewhere it's possible that the Steelers will ask him to take a pay cut or he's gone. Not sure if that will actually happen, but I'd like to know how it would affect the cap.

If the Steelers were to cut loose Ike and Woodley, then I think the full-blown rebuild is on. I don't know how much say LeBeau has on who stays or who goes, but if all of Ike, Woodley, and Worlids are gone does a DC his age really want to stick around for a rebuild?

[Psycho Ward 86]

Maybe that depends on how the Steelers really feel about Jason Worlids. His first three years he was always hurt and wasn't anything special when he did get on the field. He certainly turned it on during the last 8 games this season, but is that the real Jason Worlids or is that a guy just looking for a new contract?

lets establish a couple of facts here:

1) Keenan fucking Lewis. I literally should just stop there, but for the sake of debating I will point out that people who are skeptical of the thought of even resigning worilds are treating the situation similiarly to how keenan lewis was treated last season. Keenan was invisible his 1st 2 seasons and looked like he would get cut. Boom. Enter carnell lake and all of a sudden keenan has a great season as the nickel corner on the #1 pass defense in the league. The following season, he is part of the tandem that anchors the #1 pass defense in the league again, this time as a starter. Oh, but its all because he's looking for a contract and oh, it must have been because we have so many other great defenders, and oh he's not even that good. Instead he gets a modest deal for $5million a year and anchors the #2 pass defense in the league. Gee whiz Psycho, its because he took a hometown discount. How would anyone know if the steelers never gave him an offer? Gee whiz Psycho, its because the saints have so many great players on their defense. Valid point. But the saints pass defense continued to excel after half the starting DB line up went down for a significant stretch of time (jabrari greer and kenny vaccaro). Keenan Lewis is listed as a pro bowl snub on many websites. Google it and entertain yourself. Point now invalidated.

2) Keenan at least had a guy behind him that looked like a viable replacement. Boy were we wrong (at least for now), and that replacement got benched early into the season because he was that bad. Worilds doesnt have a viable replacement. Dont make me laugh and tell me woodley is that guy because he has been either injured or just plain sucked for the past 2 and a half season. that would be poor roster management to count on that to suddenly change. If worilds is gone, we have no proven pass rushers on the entire roster. Oh whats that? Woodley is a proven pass rusher? Read #2 again.

3) No worilds is going to mean either another early draft pick used on a pass rusher, or us being dumb enough to rely on woodley. And also one less early draft pick on our many other positions of need.

4) It is well documented by the players themselves and Dick Lebeau himself that his defense takes a long time to learn. This means calm your tits, and lower early expectations.

5) Worilds lost 2 whole offseasons. 1 due to the lockout, 1 due to wrist surgery, a period in which he couldn't even unhinge his wrist.

6) Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril with the seahawks. While they did get paid a lot, they got the job done. An offseason after they looked like they might be free agency busts because they had only a limited quantity of promising production.

[Texasteel]

It's not do we want to resign Worlds, but can we. I hope, and believe, the Steelers will try, but in the end will that be enough. I have a feeling that someone is going to throw a lot of money at him and that will likely be the deciding factor.

[MrPgh]

lets establish a couple of facts here:

1) Keenan fucking Lewis. I literally should just stop there, but for the sake of debating I will point out that people who are skeptical of the thought of even resigning worilds are treating the situation similiarly to how keenan lewis was treated last season. Keenan was invisible his 1st 2 seasons and looked like he would get cut. Boom. Enter carnell lake and all of a sudden keenan has a great season as the nickel corner on the #1 pass defense in the league. The following season, he is part of the tandem that anchors the #1 pass defense in the league again, this time as a starter. Oh, but its all because he's looking for a contract and oh, it must have been because we have so many other great defenders, and oh he's not even that good. Instead he gets a modest deal for $5million a year and anchors the #2 pass defense in the league. Gee whiz Psycho, its because he took a hometown discount. How would anyone know if the steelers never gave him an offer? Gee whiz Psycho, its because the saints have so many great players on their defense. Valid point. But the saints pass defense continued to excel after half the starting DB line up went down for a significant stretch of time (jabrari greer and kenny vaccaro). Keenan Lewis is listed as a pro bowl snub on many websites. Google it and entertain yourself. Point now invalidated.

That's all true about Keenan Lewis, but that's Keenan Lewis. Would the same be true for Jason Worlids?


2) Keenan at least had a guy behind him that looked like a viable replacement. Boy were we wrong (at least for now), and that replacement got benched early into the season because he was that bad. Worilds doesnt have a viable replacement. Dont make me laugh and tell me woodley is that guy because he has been either injured or just plain sucked for the past 2 and a half season. that would be poor roster management to count on that to suddenly change. If worilds is gone, we have no proven pass rushers on the entire roster. Oh whats that? Woodley is a proven pass rusher? Read #2 again.

Who exactly is arguing in favor of Woodley? If the Steelers can't keep Worlids, then you can't rule out the Steelers drafting another OLB.


3) No worilds is going to mean either another early draft pick used on a pass rusher, or us being dumb enough to rely on woodley. And also one less early draft pick on our many other positions of need.

All depends on how they feel about Worlids. Could he be like Keenan Lewis, or was he just playing for a new contract? Not an easy decision for the Steelers to make, and there's a 50/50 chance whatever decision they do make comes back and slaps them in the face.


4) It is well documented by the players themselves and Dick Lebeau himself that his defense takes a long time to learn. This means calm your tits, and lower early expectations.

You don't have to tell me that. I've been saying on other threads this defense will be average at best next season no matter how well the Steelers draft. I can't for the life of me understand why some Steeler fans think this defense will be a dominant unit next year.


5) Worilds lost 2 whole offseasons. 1 due to the lockout, 1 due to wrist surgery, a period in which he couldn't even unhinge his wrist.

6) Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril with the seahawks. While they did get paid a lot, they got the job done. An offseason after they looked like they might be free agency busts because they had only a limited quantity of promising production.

I won't argue or defend these last two points. All I can say is there's really no easy decision for the Steelers here.

[st33lersguy]

They need to keep Worilds. They need to cut at least Ike Taylor and Woodley to ensure it happens. If they need to get rid of other aging defensive players no longer capable of making a meaningful contribution to the team, then do it. It was very frustrating watching Keenan Lewis help revive New Orleans defense while our defensive backs stunk. Worilds is one of the few proven defenders on this team that is still young and not past his prime.

[Dwinsgames]

unless they backup this , its highly doubtful he stays

http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/dynamics/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2013/07/Brinks.jpg

[st33lersguy]

If the Steelers don't find a way to re-sign Worilds, this defense WILL regress. I guarantee it

[Psycho Ward 86]

That's all true about Keenan Lewis, but that's Keenan Lewis. Would the same be true for Jason Worlids?



Who exactly is arguing in favor of Woodley? If the Steelers can't keep Worlids, then you can't rule out the Steelers drafting another OLB.



All depends on how they feel about Worlids. Could he be like Keenan Lewis, or was he just playing for a new contract? Not an easy decision for the Steelers to make, and there's a 50/50 chance whatever decision they do make comes back and slaps them in the face.



You don't have to tell me that. I've been saying on other threads this defense will be average at best next season no matter how well the Steelers draft. I can't for the life of me understand why some Steeler fans think this defense will be a dominant unit next year.



I won't argue or defend these last two points. All I can say is there's really no easy decision for the Steelers here.

half of these questions can be answered by reading more carefully. as for your logic, i have to question it. so you feel like this defense is going to be average at best next season no matter what. Alright....so your solution is to let go of a young rising player at arguably our most important position and make the defense a whole lot worse?

[steeldawg]

I don't think its a question of should we resign him, I think its a question of can we? Will we be able to compete with the FA market with our current situation? I don't think so. Do we want to rebuild on defense?

[jb500ex]

Losing worilds will be the best thing for this team. He's not good and giving him any decent contract would be a waste of money. Let him go and start getting some real players and linebackers on this team. Stop throwing money at patching the team and fix it right

[86WARD]

With the exception of Chad Brown, the Steelers have made pretty good choices when it comes to keeping/releasing their LBs.

[fansince'76]

Losing worilds will be the best thing for this team. He's not good and giving him any decent contract would be a waste of money. Let him go and start getting some real players and linebackers on this team. Stop throwing money at patching the team and fix it right

Cool story, bro. Now let's hear some more about how much Timmons blows. :rolleyes:

[jb500ex]

Cool story, bro. Now let's hear some more about how much Timmons blows. :rolleyes:
Oh no he's well worth the 9 mill he gets a year. That's the going rate for a soft dumb linebacker who can't call the defense. Might as well give worilds close to the same

[fansince'76]

Oh no he's well worth the 9 mill he gets a year. That's the going rate for a soft dumb linebacker who can't call the defense. Might as well give worilds close to the same

Gee, I sure do hope the Steelers see the error of their ways and hire you to replace Colbert! 2-14 here we come! :tt02:

[st33lersguy]

Oh no he's well worth the 9 mill he gets a year. That's the going rate for a soft dumb linebacker who can't call the defense. Might as well give worilds close to the same

I didn't know Flacco trolled on Steeler forums

[Mojouw]

No to be too much of a contrary grump, but while I am certainly in favor of re-signing Worilds if at all possible. Maybe we should all be careful about what we wish for.

Injury prone player who only flashes in a few short bursts of good health. Kinda sounds like Woodley post 2011!

My point is that if we are all willing to heap some praise and positive expectations on Worilds, there is no reason to believe that IF Woodley can stay healthy that he could not return to previous double digit sack levels.

Wouldn't that @ 7-8 Million against the cap + a resigning of Worilds look a heck of a lot better than that same $$ against the cap and no Woodley AND no Worilds?

[steelreserve]

No to be too much of a contrary grump, but while I am certainly in favor of re-signing Worilds if at all possible. Maybe we should all be careful about what we wish for.

Injury prone player who only flashes in a few short bursts of good health. Kinda sounds like Woodley post 2011!

My point is that if we are all willing to heap some praise and positive expectations on Worilds, there is no reason to believe that IF Woodley can stay healthy that he could not return to previous double digit sack levels.

Wouldn't that @ 7-8 Million against the cap + a resigning of Worilds look a heck of a lot better than that same $$ against the cap and no Woodley AND no Worilds?


I think with Woodley, we know what we have, which is a guy who got opportunistic pressure and sacks when there were a lot of other good players around him, but is not actually a disruptive force on his own. I'm not convinced he'll return to double-digit sack levels unless we have playmakers on the DL and other LB positions. And in any case, even if he did make a comeback of sorts, 10 sacks are not worth $14 million.

Worilds maybe has shown a little potential to be disruptive in his own right, but it's far from enough to convince me to bet the house on him. As I said about Woodley, if we can get him at a reasonable rate like $4M or $5M, then great. If he commands $8M on the open market, then sorry, but he'll have to walk. With the same amount of money, we could find at least two players who we need more than a semi-proven pass rusher.

We have the Woodley contract fiasco staring us right in the face, so sorry if I am not eager to jump right into the same exact gamble again, only with a guy who showed even less in his early years and happens to be peaking at the right time. If Worilds had fought his way into the starting lineup and emerged as a guy that other teams had to account for, that would be one thing. But all I've seen is a backup who was pressed into service and did pretty well once moved to a certain spot. If someone else wants to sign him to a blockbuster deal for that, they can go right ahead. What we need to do is stop cornering ourselves into handing out $10M contracts like candy because we panic every time a linebacker might leave. We never used to worry about that. Seriously, what the hell?

[Dwinsgames]

again , I said this many times over but will say it again 1 last time ....

Woodleys contract numbers are not of Woodleys making , they are the making of the front office he had a deal , maybe not the best deal for the team but a deal none the less ( arguably a fair deal when it was signed based on production at that time ) ...

above is the " 10 sacks not worth 14 million a year " no it is not I agree , however it would not be 14 million a year had we not ( as a team ) reneged on the initial deal forcing yesterdays money into tomorrow , in essence we are paying him impart for past seasons ... part of that 14 million is what we owe him from before ...

its like bitching about your mortgage payments because the house initially cost you x amount of $$ but in the end your paying way more for it ..... ( not what you was thinking going into it ) .....

it is what it is ... I myself look at his yearly amount and base if a player is worth that or not , forget the cap hit part ""that is the teams fault ""

that's just me though

[Psycho Ward 86]

No to be too much of a contrary grump, but while I am certainly in favor of re-signing Worilds if at all possible. Maybe we should all be careful about what we wish for.

Injury prone player who only flashes in a few short bursts of good health. Kinda sounds like Woodley post 2011!

My point is that if we are all willing to heap some praise and positive expectations on Worilds, there is no reason to believe that IF Woodley can stay healthy that he could not return to previous double digit sack levels.

Wouldn't that @ 7-8 Million against the cap + a resigning of Worilds look a heck of a lot better than that same $$ against the cap and no Woodley AND no Worilds?

youre reaching there. worilds only major injury has been his offseason wrist surgery. and i wouldnt call playing strong the entire 2nd half of the season a "flash."

on a side note, it seems like the only possible way that worilds, woodley, and jarvis are going to be in pittsburgh at the same time is if jarvis isnt starting next season. pretty interesting stuff to discuss imo.

personally, i will be appalled if jarvis isnt starting next season, because it will mean he is either rotting on the bench when he could be outdoing woodley and possibly worilds, or it will mean that jarvis jones isnt panning out. Yes, it will only be his 2nd season learning a complicated defense, but were talking about a guy who actually played 3-4 OLB in college in a top conference and was once a possible top 5 pick if not for a spinal contusion. at the end of the day, no way are we paying starter money to worilds and woodley and not starting them.

worilds is definitely getting starter money with him and brian orakpo likely the top OLB's in free agency. i dont think that necessarily constitutes a paul kruger type contract. this year's OLB crop doesnt look impressive imo

[Mojouw]

youre reaching there. worilds only major injury has been his offseason wrist surgery. and i wouldnt call playing strong the entire 2nd half of the season a "flash."

on a side note, it seems like the only possible way that worilds, woodley, and jarvis are going to be in pittsburgh at the same time is if jarvis isnt starting next season. pretty interesting stuff to discuss imo.

personally, i will be appalled if jarvis isnt starting next season, because it will mean he is either rotting on the bench when he could be outdoing woodley and possibly worilds, or it will mean that jarvis jones isnt panning out. Yes, it will only be his 2nd season learning a complicated defense, but were talking about a guy who actually played 3-4 OLB in college in a top conference and was once a possible top 5 pick if not for a spinal contusion. at the end of the day, no way are we paying starter money to worilds and woodley and not starting them.

worilds is definitely getting starter money with him and brian orakpo likely the top OLB's in free agency. i dont think that necessarily constitutes a paul kruger type contract. this year's OLB crop doesnt look impressive imo

I am by no means saying that Worilds is currently, or will become terrible and/or injury prone. Just trying to point out that for all the bashing of Woodley around these parts, he is a very effective pass-rushing linebacker when on the field.

As was pointed out by DWins, it is not Woodley's fault that the cap hit got so out of hand, he likely thought he was helping the team out.

If Jones doesn't start that is bad. That it is how the team got to this point with Worilds, letting his rookie deal run out before they found out what they had.

[MrPgh]

No to be too much of a contrary grump, but while I am certainly in favor of re-signing Worilds if at all possible. Maybe we should all be careful about what we wish for.

Injury prone player who only flashes in a few short bursts of good health. Kinda sounds like Woodley post 2011!

My point is that if we are all willing to heap some praise and positive expectations on Worilds, there is no reason to believe that IF Woodley can stay healthy that he could not return to previous double digit sack levels.

Wouldn't that @ 7-8 Million against the cap + a resigning of Worilds look a heck of a lot better than that same $$ against the cap and no Woodley AND no Worilds?

Basically, there's no easy decision for the Steelers here. Whatever they do might work well, or it could come back and slap them in the face.

[steelreserve]

again , I said this many times over but will say it again 1 last time ....

Woodleys contract numbers are not of Woodleys making , they are the making of the front office he had a deal , maybe not the best deal for the team but a deal none the less ( arguably a fair deal when it was signed based on production at that time ) ...

above is the " 10 sacks not worth 14 million a year " no it is not I agree , however it would not be 14 million a year had we not ( as a team ) reneged on the initial deal forcing yesterdays money into tomorrow , in essence we are paying him impart for past seasons ... part of that 14 million is what we owe him from before ...

its like bitching about your mortgage payments because the house initially cost you x amount of $$ but in the end your paying way more for it ..... ( not what you was thinking going into it ) .....

it is what it is ... I myself look at his yearly amount and base if a player is worth that or not , forget the cap hit part ""that is the teams fault ""

that's just me though


OK, ignore the $14M that we got ourselves into. That's just the number we're working with for the current cut/keep argument. But was it a bad contract overall? Absolutely. $61M over 6 years is still over $10M a year no matter how you slice it. And 10 sacks aren't worth $10M a year either. At least not unless you're also making all kinds of other impact plays all over the field, which I hate to say, Woodley ain't.

[Dwinsgames]

OK, ignore the $14M that we got ourselves into. That's just the number we're working with for the current cut/keep argument. But was it a bad contract overall? Absolutely. $61M over 6 years is still over $10M a year no matter how you slice it. And 10 sacks aren't worth $10M a year either. At least not unless you're also making all kinds of other impact plays all over the field, which I hate to say, Woodley ain't.

he drops into coverage more often than he rushes the passer yet still gets pressure at a high rate , whether or not we agree if it is enough to merit the money he gets or not we can not let the facts go by the way side in the process as they are part of the argument when dealing with the numbers ...

he is being used to be Mr Everything OLB when his best attributes ( rushing the passer ) take a back seat to what the team needs from the pos , be it to help mask lackadaisical play in the secondary , inability in coverage by the ILB on his side of the field or some combination of both and perhaps that is partly to blame for his injury issues , he is not a man built to play in coverage as often as he is asked to do it . its just not natural for a man of his size to be doing this at the rate he is having to do it ...

again , not making excuses just thinking out loud and discussing possible causes for what we have witnessed

Woodley drops into coverage nearly 2 out of 3 snaps on average , for a guy who made his living chasing the QB to me that is asking him to do something way way outside the box and out of his skill set from a physical standpoint , maybe that is my problem I dunno ...

seems to me if he doubled his rush attempts by natural law his sack numbers would also double ( or somewhere close ) and consequently his injury issues would be reduced as his problems are leg related if he is running less distances and almost exclusively running forward instead of backpedaling and changing direction so much at his size those injuries should be reduced by a large margin ( or erased almost all together )

granted this is theory but pretty logical I believe ...

I have no stock in this either way , just a fan of the game and the team , just relaying what I see and think based on results ....

I should not be seeing a 260 pound man 20- 30 yards down field in coverage when his best asset to the team is playing within 10 yards of the LOS , we need to fix the issues that force men of his size to have to try and help out 30 yards down field so he no longer has to do this sort of thing IMO .....


is 18-20 sacks worth what he makes per year in Salary ? I think it is

is 18-20 sacks a year a possibility if he is able to do what he was hired to do and rush the passer more often than not ? I think it is based on his sacks per rush total the past several years the issue is he just is not getting the rush attempts ...

fix the backend of the D and the front end will be much better because of it , yes it all starts up front but when the guys upfront are playing in the back end more than the front end you are going to have major problems

[steelreserve]

Well, if that's the case, then it sounds to me like our defensive game plan trying to be too cute. Which one is messing up - Woodley or LeBeau? It has to be one or the other.

I don't subscribe to the idea that - if the problem is that our DBs can't cover well enough - sending a 260-pound pass rushing linebacker to do the job is the intelligent solution. If what we need is more pressure, why isn't Woodley rushing more? If we need another guy in coverage, why is Woodley on the field on those plays? Is it really worth square-peg-round-holing it on two-thirds of our plays so we can have Woodley out there as an expensive decoy, putting the fear of God into the opponents that he's going to rush? Not that he really puts the fear of God into anyone these days either.

[Mojouw]

I still say that as long as the cap can be wrangled, the best use of player resources is to line Woodley up at ROLB and just let him try and get to the backfield on almost every play. Put Worilds at LOLB and let him do whatever he was doing at the end of this past season. Leave Timmons alone in the middle as the signal caller, and then let Jones take the other ILB spot. Jones is far better in space than either Worilds or Woodley and with this quickness would look pretty good on that cross A gap blitz Lebeau loves to run.

Now how in the world you pay for that and what you do moving past 2014 with those players, I don't have the vaguest idea.

[Dwinsgames]

Well, if that's the case, then it sounds to me like our defensive game plan trying to be too cute. Which one is messing up - Woodley or LeBeau? It has to be one or the other.

I don't subscribe to the idea that - if the problem is that our DBs can't cover well enough - sending a 260-pound pass rushing linebacker to do the job is the intelligent solution. If what we need is more pressure, why isn't Woodley rushing more? If we need another guy in coverage, why is Woodley on the field on those plays? Is it really worth square-peg-round-holing it on two-thirds of our plays so we can have Woodley out there as an expensive decoy, putting the fear of God into the opponents that he's going to rush? Not that he really puts the fear of God into anyone these days either.


its not as cut and dry as that , you can do a multitude of things out of a personnel grouping , your first read as a def determines what you try and run with the guys you have on the field , you can not get that read before the O sets its formation prior to that all you have is educated guess work based on down /distance /tendencies ....

I do not think it is square peg round hole by design , but out of necessity but that necessity is not a known quantity until the O sets itself and with just 3 time outs per half you cant at the drop of a dime change personnel to account for the formation or they just change formations while you go to time out to make your changes in personnel and are now playing against your adjustments ...

football is chess in speed mode not much time to think all you can do is react

[steelreserve]

its not as cut and dry as that , you can do a multitude of things out of a personnel grouping , your first read as a def determines what you try and run with the guys you have on the field , you can not get that read before the O sets its formation prior to that all you have is educated guess work based on down /distance /tendencies ....

I do not think it is square peg round hole by design , but out of necessity but that necessity is not a known quantity until the O sets itself and with just 3 time outs per half you cant at the drop of a dime change personnel to account for the formation or they just change formations while you go to time out to make your changes in personnel and are now playing against your adjustments ...

football is chess in speed mode not much time to think all you can do is react


I understand that ... but the point is, if they are forcing us to play Woodley to his weaknesses two-thirds of the time, we ought to be making adjustments either in scheme or in personnel. That does not necessarily mean taking Woodley out of the game; it could just as well mean having someone else assigned to handle those kinds of coverage duties who's more suited for it, so Woodley can do what he does best and rush more often. Because dong it this way sure as hell doesn't produce results ... and then throwing up our hands saying we have to do it this way because we're "stuck" just means we got outcoached or we have the wrong personnel, take your pick.

[Dwinsgames]

I understand that ... but the point is, if they are forcing us to play Woodley to his weaknesses two-thirds of the time, we ought to be making adjustments either in scheme or in personnel. That does not necessarily mean taking Woodley out of the game; it could just as well mean having someone else assigned to handle those kinds of coverage duties who's more suited for it, so Woodley can do what he does best and rush more often. Because dong it this way sure as hell doesn't produce results ... and then throwing up our hands saying we have to do it this way because we're "stuck" just means we got outcoached or we have the wrong personnel, take your pick.


I am not a NFL coach ( as we all know by now ) but I think ( could be wrong ) but think it is a matter of not having the proper guy on the roster that is capable of filling that role at ILB , Foote is aging and has never been a great coverage linebacker ( I like Larry but he is what he is ) and the Rookie Williams is more of a LOS player and was never intended to get anywhere near the reps he got this year ( he was 3rd string and was slated as a ST player ) so the choice was keep woodley on the field and see what formation came out of said personnel grouping and go from there or take him off and be short handed if it was a formation that favored rushing the QB on that side ...

no square peg round hole , no being out coached , just short handed and the lack of a quality ILB to do the job based on age / injury /talent at the pos. and Woodley ( albeit not adequate and at to much risk to health ) may not be the best choice and you are giving something up to protect against something else pretty much may have been the only choice right/wrong or indifferent

that is why I think no matter who we draft in the first round is the guy we take in round 2 ( where I believe we will select an ILB ) will be the biggest improvement to this def and its capabilities ( provided I am right of course ) Levon Kirkland where are ya son ......


again just my take from my perspective

[Mojouw]

I understand that ... but the point is, if they are forcing us to play Woodley to his weaknesses two-thirds of the time, we ought to be making adjustments either in scheme or in personnel. That does not necessarily mean taking Woodley out of the game; it could just as well mean having someone else assigned to handle those kinds of coverage duties who's more suited for it, so Woodley can do what he does best and rush more often. Because dong it this way sure as hell doesn't produce results ... and then throwing up our hands saying we have to do it this way because we're "stuck" just means we got outcoached or we have the wrong personnel, take your pick.

I think they have tried to do this, it has for a long time been a personnel problem. They have not had 2 ILB's that can run in a long time. I remember even during Farrior's heyday an ESPN miked up segment where the Ravens said they were targeting him in the passing game all day because they thought he was the weak link. Recently neither Foote nor Williams is much in coverage. The Timmons pick was largely made to get an athletic linebacker to run with RB's and TE's.

The Steelers have always seemed to favor having 2 types of LB in the middle, a gap filling thumper, and a more athletic coverage guy. Recently, I feel they are trying to get another coverage guy. The guy they signed off the Eagles PS 2 years ago or so, Spence, Sylvester, etc. Maybe if both ILB's could cover, they wouldn't have to drop Woodley so much? I don't really know.

[Psycho Ward 86]

hmm havent heard that one before. i find the prospect of jarvis jones intriguing but extremely risky and most likely something that wont be immediately successful. timmons was a successful OLB to ILB convert, perhaps we could do it again. still, there is the high probability that vince williams never becomes a viable permanent starter (cant blame a 6th rounder) and sean spence might never play another down in the nfl. and there is an additional high probability of woodley never becoming healthy AND effective ever again.

imo, moving jarvis jones to ILB is just too many moving variables and too much risk vs. reward. Besides, at worst, were stuck with woodley for 2 more years. by the time jarvis gets good at playing ILB, woodley will probably be gone and were back to square one

[Dwinsgames]

for me .... Jones does not have the kind of speed we need at ILB for TE coverage , he is more of a focus / destination player , not as much read /react ...he may be ok in a zone situation but not a man coverage situation , I think teams would eat him alive in coverage if asked to go man up on a pass catching TE ... I could be wrong but that's what I see but I do believe he would create some turnovers in doing so with the way he swings his arm at the ball

[Mojouw]

hmm havent heard that one before. i find the prospect of jarvis jones intriguing but extremely risky and most likely something that wont be immediately successful. timmons was a successful OLB to ILB convert, perhaps we could do it again. still, there is the high probability that vince williams never becomes a viable permanent starter (cant blame a 6th rounder) and sean spence might never play another down in the nfl. and there is an additional high probability of woodley never becoming healthy AND effective ever again.

imo, moving jarvis jones to ILB is just too many moving variables and too much risk vs. reward. Besides, at worst, were stuck with woodley for 2 more years. by the time jarvis gets good at playing ILB, woodley will probably be gone and were back to square one

I see your point and other posters have offered some more detailed thoughts than I am able to on why or why not moving Jones to the inside should or should not be tried.

I just keep coming back to the fact that I think we are stuck with Woodley and I am a big believer in getting your best 1 athletes on the field and let the positions sort themselves out later. In a scenario where Jones, Woodley, and Worilds are all rostered in 2014, playing all three is far better than benching someone.

[steelreserve]

no square peg round hole , no being out coached , just short handed and the lack of a quality ILB to do the job based on age / injury /talent at the pos. and Woodley ( albeit not adequate and at to much risk to health ) may not be the best choice and you are giving something up to protect against something else pretty much may have been the only choice right/wrong or indifferent


I think they have tried to do this, it has for a long time been a personnel problem. They have not had 2 ILB's that can run in a long time.

I think we've identified the problem. Woodley's not much of a coverage guy, but neither is anyone else except Timmons, so if we want Woodley on the field at all, we get exposed. Personally, if I was the coach and I had a choice between Woodley dropping back, or some other LB who's equally bad in coverage but not a good pass rusher dropping back, I'd just as soon have the other guy drop back and at least get some semblance of a pass rush. Then again, I doubt it's that simple.

[Count Steeler]

Dont think we have a singlular problem at LB. We are thin at OLB and even thinner at ILB. All this discussion of Worilds or Woodley, is ignoring our problems in the middle. Timmons is fine but we can't have Polamalu helping as an ILB. We need at least 3 solid pickups on defense just to stay competitive.

Settle the OLB, a better ILB, and a solid safety or CB. The offense better be able to consistently score 30 points next year, as it stands now.

[Dwinsgames]

Dont think we have a singlular problem at LB. We are thin at OLB and even thinner at ILB. All this discussion of Worilds or Woodley, is ignoring our problems in the middle. Timmons is fine but we can't have Polamalu helping as an ILB. We need at least 3 solid pickups on defense just to stay competitive.

Settle the OLB, a better ILB, and a solid safety or CB. The offense better be able to consistently score 30 points next year, as it stands now.

this

[Steelerette]

I personally don't understand the point of some of the hypotheticals being presented in this thread.

OLB starters is going to be either Woodley and Worilds, Woodley and Jones, or Worilds and Jones. I kind of assumed that if we found a way to keep Worilds, then Woodley would have to go , and our starting OLB would be Worilds and Jones. If we don't keep Worilds, then we have to ride out Woodley's cap hit, and our starting OLB would be Woodley and Jones.

I'm not sure where all this confusion of who will start as the other OLB is coming from. Ready or not, unless they pull off some serious cap wizardry to keep both Wood and Worilds, then Jones is up, and we mostly have to be sure we're comfortable with our depth. Jones is a second year first round draft pick who looked good in flashes down the stretch. There will be a few hiccups but in the long run he'll be fine or at least adequate. It's go time. Worilds on the left and Jones on the right, it's where they naturally fit anyways.

Who will be ILB beside Timmons is the bigger question but that doesn't have a lot to do with whether Worilds stays or goes. Jones, Worilds, those guys are not going to be moved inside. They did not draft Jones to be an inside linebacker.

[dislocatedday]

Anybody have any inside info on how Sean Spence is coming along in his recovery? I'm not holding my breath, but I know that he was impressing the coaches mightily before that nasty knee injury a couple years ago, and he was able to start practicing with the team again during this past season. I'm pulling for the young man, and hope his story turns out like Rocky Bleier's did.

[Count Steeler]

Anybody have any inside info on how Sean Spence is coming along in his recovery? I'm not holding my breath, but I know that he was impressing the coaches mightily before that nasty knee injury a couple years ago, and he was able to start practicing with the team again during this past season. I'm pulling for the young man, and hope his story turns out like Rocky Bleier's did.

Hope for the best, expect the worst. If Sean is able to play again, it will be an added bonus to our situation. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

It is however, quite amazing that he has come back as far as he has.

[Steelerette]

Anybody have any inside info on how Sean Spence is coming along in his recovery? I'm not holding my breath, but I know that he was impressing the coaches mightily before that nasty knee injury a couple years ago, and he was able to start practicing with the team again during this past season. I'm pulling for the young man, and hope his story turns out like Rocky Bleier's did.

Don't know why all the fuss about Sean Spence. I have to wonder if he was supposed to be a Safety conversion project, or a guy they wanted to plug into hybrid packages. I wish him well but even if he does recover he is not really what we need in terms of a regular ILB presence. He never did fit that mold :confused:

[Count Steeler]

Don't know why all the fuss about Sean Spence. I have to wonder if he was supposed to be a Safety conversion project, or a guy they wanted to plug into hybrid packages. I wish him well but even if he does recover he is not really what we need in terms of a regular ILB presence. He never did fit that mold :confused:


Yeah, I thought he would be a replacement candidate for Polamalu, more than an ILB regular.