Kirby Wilson leaving Steelers for Vikings

[stillers4me]

Two years ago, Kirby Wilson suffered serious burns in a house fire (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7431734/pittsburgh-steelers-rb-coach-kirby-wilson-burned-house-fire). He made a full recovery, returning to his job as Steelers running backs coach later that same year.

Wilson is now moving on from the Steelers.

According to Ed Bouchette of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Wilson will be joining the Vikings’ coaching staff, led by new head coach Mike Zimmer.......

Read more @ http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/25/kirby-wilson-leaving-steelers-for-vikings/

[stillers4me]

The Steelers running game has been mediocre, at best. I admire Kirby Wilson , am grateful for his recovery, and wish him nothing but the best. Really getting excited, though, with Munchak coming on board and now comes the search for a RB coach that can take Bell to the next level!

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427195051123277824

[fansince'76]

The Steelers running game has been mediocre, at best. I admire Kirby Wilson , am grateful for his recovery, and wish him nothing but the best. Really getting excited, though, with Munchak coming on board and now comes the search for a RB coach that can take Bell to the next level!

Agreed. Best of luck to Coach Wilson, but our running game has suffered ever since Dick Hoak retired. Hell, I'd look good coaching AP and I don't know squat about coaching RBs! Seriously, how do you coach a talent like that? "Just go out there and do what you do."

[MrPgh]

Agreed. Best of luck to Coach Wilson, but our running game has suffered ever since Dick Hoak retired. Hell, I'd look good coaching AP and I don't know squat about coaching RBs! Seriously, how do you coach a talent like that? "Just go out there and do what you do."

There are two steps to coaching AP:

1.) Let him do what he does

2.) Make sure Todd Haley isn't his OC. :eyebrows:

[Steelerette]

I busted down some numbers for Kirby's tenure in another thread
http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/19269-Kirby-Wilson-scheduled-to-interview-for-Ravens-offensive-coordinator?p=421111&viewfull=1#post421111

I think the search for a new RB coach and someone to work with Munchak is going to be a positive thing. I also think that Kirby stepping away from being OC Heir Apparent is also a good thing. I wish him well but eh.

Bobby Morris is a very appealing candidate to me. Between Alfred Morris coming out of nowhere, and before that, Denver's consistently dominant run game? Sure that's mostly to do with their focus on getting the O-line right but he obviously knows how to work with the O-line coach to get rushing results. Color me interested.

[stillers4me]

427220498582605824

427220370056552448
Is that code speak for "Todd Haley is an asshole." ??

427220209116909568

[Count Steeler]

So which RB coach is available that has roots close to Pittsburgh. Seems to be the trend with our coaches.x

[KeiselPower99]

Good luck in Minnesota coach. He will be a OC somewhere in the next few years due to AP.

[Steelerette]

So which RB coach is available that has roots close to Pittsburgh. Seems to be the trend with our coaches.x
Scranton is closer to Philly, and Munchak was by far the best coach for the job.

In fact I think it's kind of encouraging that the team has been willing to spend to get the best coaching talent lately. Let's be honest, whatever you think about Haley now, that's what we thought we were getting with him after the offensive explosion out of Arizona and the way he had the Chiefs humming for a while. Munchak is equally a "homerun on paper". I think if we went and hired Bobby Morris to coach our RBs, it would send a very strong message. Last year they even expanded their scouting staff and added Mark Bruener.

[ALLD]

Kuhn for new RB coach.

[stillers4me]

I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with this particular article.........just throwing it out there for my own enjoyment of reading YOUR responses. :lol:


Steelers running backs coach candidates list should include Willie Parker
Pittsburgh has hired position coaches with just a little experience previously. What Willie Parker may lose in a lack of pro coaching experience he can make up with a well-versed history of Steelers culture.

Tucked away in the middle of Nowhere, West Virginia sits West Virginia Wesleyan - a small Division II school with an enrollment of 1,400 students.

The Bobcats aren't exactly a pipeline to the pros. None of their players will attend the NFL Scouting Combine (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-combine) in February, and none were invited to play in the Senior Bowl (http://www.sbnation.com/senior-bowl). It has produced two Hall of Famers, though - Earle "Greasy" Neale of the Philadelphia Eagles (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/philadelphia-eagles) and Cliff Battles of the Washington Redskins (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/washington-redskins).

If it's famous for anything right now in the football world, it's the final collegiate destination of Nate Montana, the son of the Hall of Fame quarterback Joe Montana.

And, on the coaching staff, the record holder for the longest run in a Super Bowl (http://www.sbnation.com/super-bowl), former Steelers (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/pittsburgh-steelers) running back Willie Parker.............

read more @ http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/latest-news/2014/1/26/5346870/steelers-running-backs-coaching-candidates-willie-parker

[zulater]

Some will see this lateral move as an indictment on Haley. And I can't say they're wrong. Seems like a lot of Steelers offensive coaches have left for lateral or inferior jobs since Haley started running the offense.

[NCSteeler]

While it's quite possible Haley is hard to work for, it's also possible that people see no future for themselves with him in place.

[Dwinsgames]

Some will see this lateral move as an indictment on Haley. And I can't say they're wrong. Seems like a lot of Steelers offensive coaches have left for lateral or inferior jobs since Haley started running the offense.

so Kugler's O-Line coach to HC of a college program is a lateral move ? ( his Alma mater )

Montgomery going from WR coach to OC and assistant HC at Duke is a lateral move ??

shit like this is what starts bad rumors

sure this move may be considered lateral but now you all the sudden have it in your mind its Haleys fault because 3 moves have happened during his tenure that where lateral when the fact is this is the first one ...

as a side note whomever was the reason / whatever was the reason I am fine with it , fact is Kirby just was not very good at his job and I for one welcome the change

[Count Steeler]

Mike Munchak WANTS to coach under Haley. I'm not a Haley apologist, but the media has its whipping boy and his first name is Todd.

[Dwinsgames]

Mike Munchak WANTS to coach under Haley. I'm not a Haley apologist, but the media has its whipping boy and his first name is Todd.


trust me I am not Haley apologist either , but I prefer to keep the facts straight and not start stories that should never be written

[Count Steeler]

trust me I am not Haley apologist either , but I prefer to keep the facts straight and not start stories that should never be written

Agreed. I wonder if Ben and Todd are EVER going to have their sideline tirade.

[MrPgh]

so Kugler's O-Line coach to HC of a college program is a lateral move ? ( his Alma mater )

Montgomery going from WR coach to OC and assistant HC at Duke is a lateral move ??

shit like this is what starts bad rumors

sure this move may be considered lateral but now you all the sudden have it in your mind its Haleys fault because 3 moves have happened during his tenure that where lateral when the fact is this is the first one ...

as a side note whomever was the reason / whatever was the reason I am fine with it , fact is Kirby just was not very good at his job and I for one welcome the change

He did say lateral OR inferior. Kulger and Montgomery might've went to their alma mater, but UTEP and Duke aren't exactly big-time programs.

[SteelerFanInStl]

If anything I think that this could be a good thing for the Steelers, depending on who they hire. Wilson leaving doesn't bother me at all.

[Dwinsgames]

He did say lateral OR inferior. Kulger and Montgomery might've went to their alma mater, but UTEP and Duke aren't exactly big-time programs.


stepping stones perhaps , others may argue their personal dream job ....

one can not determine another mans thoughts without him saying it out loud .... Yugos where horrible cars but some people loved them and grew attached to them , we can not always understand someone elses attachment to some things be it a car , a old recliner or even their alma mater ... just because we do not understand it does not mean it does not make perfect sense for them

in either case I am certain a HC job gets you more looks ( if you do a good job ) at bigger programs than a O-Line coach gets you ...

YSU ( small ass program way way smaller than UTEP ) once had Jim Tressel as its HC he used that as a stepping stone to Ohio State and would still be there @6 mill a year if not for NCAA violations headed toward the program ....

[zulater]

The rumors have been out there that Haley's difficult to work with. I didn't start them. Promise.

The offense finished up strong. So I didn't want or expect him to get fired. But that doesn't change that Haley obviously is an asshole.
Don't be surprised if the coaching exodus of offensive coaches continues as long as Todd stays.


Notice the defensive coaches only leave for NFL positions that exceeded their status on the Steelers staff.

http://nicepickcowher.com/2013/10/10/inept-offense-wasnt-enough-pittsburgh-steelers-oc-todd-haley-legal-trouble/

[Dwinsgames]

The rumors have been out there that Haley's difficult to work with. I didn't start them. Promise.

The offense finished up strong. So I didn't want or expect him to get fired. But that doesn't change that Haley obviously is an asshole.
Don't be surprised if the coaching exodus of offensive coaches continues as long as Todd stays.


Notice the defensive coaches only leave for NFL positions that exceeded their status on the Steelers staff.

http://nicepickcowher.com/2013/10/10/inept-offense-wasnt-enough-pittsburgh-steelers-oc-todd-haley-legal-trouble/


while those thing do look bad ( can't argue or explain it away ) simply put we do not know the whole story ...

where the dogs kept in deplorable conditions ? did 2 of them come back aggressive when they went there docile ? did Haley take the appliances in the house he had yet to live in or did someone else take them while the house was unoccupied ?

we simply do not know the answers to those questions and may never know them .... I am not looking for the man to balance my checkbook , I want him to coach football two very different things and if he can do the 1 thing that I expect from him and do it well so be it ...


as for his " performance" or lack there of to this point I am not sure how much of it lays at his feet considering he was not given much to work with from a protection standpoint and not mny holes where being opened in the running game either ... Yet people will blame him for the running game not being top notch but at the same time give the RBs a pass because of the Line play ... somehow that just not make much sense to me

[GoSlash27]

I'm not a Haley detractor *or* apologist, but I'd like to point out one thing:
Wilson would have been our OC if not for the fire happening when it did. There are a couple reasons I can think of why he'd take a job elsewhere and I don't know which is correct *but*... This implies strongly that (at least from the FO perspective) Wilson is a pretty good coach.

[zulater]

I'm not a Haley detractor *or* apologist, but I'd like to point out one thing:
Wilson would have been our OC if not for the fire happening when it did. There are a couple reasons I can think of why he'd take a job elsewhere and I don't know which is correct *but*... This implies strongly that (at least from the FO perspective) Wilson is a pretty good coach.


I tend to agree. Leveon Bell certainly improved as the season went on. Dwyer and Redman both got the most out of their respective abilities as Steelers. Mendenhall had a nice run too until his quirks got the better of him.

[fansince'76]

But that doesn't change that Haley obviously is an asshole.

http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/haleyfyou.gif

:chuckle:

[GoSlash27]

http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/haleyfyou.gif

:chuckle:

Ol' "Boss Todd" :D
Maybe he *is* an asshole. Perhaps even hard to work for. I wouldn't know, 'cuz 1) I don't work for him and 2) Nobody in the organization is ever gonna bad- mouth him publicly even if he deserves it.
But either way, it's not like he's the first coach we've had that was yelly and angry- faced on the sidelines.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_f3fTVkavMVg/Sh6vBvb1XZI/AAAAAAAAB6I/vrZp-K7GHUM/s400/cowher2.jpg
/ and we loved him for it...

[zulater]

You beat me to the punch Slash. Being an asshole doesn't preclude one from being a good or great coach. And over time to some degree I think Bill Cowher became an ass. The fact that he wouldn't put in a good word for any his coaching staff to succeed him is a good indicator of this. Take Whisenhunt for example. He passed up the Falcon job after the 2005 season. Virtually any other coach in Cowher's position would have publicly endorsed Whisenhunt ( or Grimm) for the job. But Cowher seemingly had no real relationship with his coaches outside the building and apparently couldn't have cared less who succeeded him.

[GoSlash27]

You beat me to the punch Slash. Being an asshole doesn't preclude one from being a good or great coach. And over time to some degree I think Bill Cowher became an ass. The fact that he wouldn't put in a good word for any his coaching staff to succeed him is a good indicator of this. Take Whisenhunt for example. He passed up the Falcon job after the 2005 season. Virtually any other coach in Cowher's position would have publicly endorsed Whisenhunt ( or Grimm) for the job. But Cowher seemingly had no real relationship with his coaches outside the building and apparently couldn't have cared less who succeeded him.

You and I are starting to make a habit of this "agreeing" thing. What's next? Self- slicing bread? :drink:

[katmandu]

Agreed. I wonder if Ben and Todd are EVER going to have their sideline tirade.X2.

I still have my guns. Do you ?

[katmandu]

But either way, it's not like he's the first coach we've had that was yelly and angry- faced on the sidelines.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_f3fTVkavMVg/Sh6vBvb1XZI/AAAAAAAAB6I/vrZp-K7GHUM/s400/cowher2.jpg
/ and we loved him for it...It's the "WAY" they displayed and used their anger to motivate that is the big difference. Cowher is not a dickhead. He also used one of the best out there in displaying positive reinforcement.

[Shoes]

I'm not a Tomlin or Haley apologist but I really hope they do well and are very successful. In spite of my opinion or how I feel about them. Maybe the presence of Munch on the team will settle things down.

[GoSlash27]

It's the "WAY" they displayed and used their anger to motivate that is the big difference. Cowher is not a dickhead. He also used one of the best out there in displaying positive reinforcement.

No argument here. When a player did well, The Chin made sure he knew it. And when a player did poorly, The Chin made sure he knew that too.

[MrPgh]

Surprise surprise......

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2014/01/report-kirby-wilson-didnt-always-get-along-with-todd-haley/

[Count Steeler]

Surprise surprise......

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2014/01/report-kirby-wilson-didnt-always-get-along-with-todd-haley/

Reporters quoting other reporters. Good news source.

Don't know how much Batch is privy to anymore, but that would be a source that could cause me concern. Dulac quoting Fittipaldo doesn't do it for me.

[MrPgh]

Reporters quoting other reporters. Good news source.

Don't know how much Batch is privy to anymore, but that would be a source that could cause me concern. Dulac quoting Fittipaldo doesn't do it for me.

How about the fact that it's well-documented that Haley can be an ass and that others generally don't like working with him?

[Mojouw]

Surprise surprise......

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2014/01/report-kirby-wilson-didnt-always-get-along-with-todd-haley/

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2014/01/report-steelers-defensive-assistant-jerry-olsavsky-to-interview-with-bills/

Must be hard to work with Keith Butler and Lebeau. See how easy that is to do?

The Haley is an arrogant prick that no one can work with theme started when he face-planted as a head coach with the Chiefs. Prior to that failure, no one said anything about his being hard to work with. During his tenure with the Cardinals, I remember him being billed as the next offensive mastermind. I bet he is a big jerk. Where there is smoke there is fire.

You know who else was a walking asshole? Buddy Ryan. But the man could coach the hell out of a defense. I personally don't care if Haley is the most hated man in Pittsburgh. He gets this offense scoring points and moving the ball consistently, no one will worry about any of this "Silly Season" non-sense.

I suspect that the Steelers will recover from the loses of those coaching stalwarts in Bicknell, Wilson, and Montgomery.

In closing, don't forget about this:


http://youtu.be/bPK3cDl7Ftw

Finally, if NFL coaches are leaving jobs because they don't "like" their co-workers or bosses...all I have to say is welcome to the real world. That is why it is called "work" not "fun". If you want to go somewhere and hang out with your friends all day; they already invented that. It is called a bar.

[Count Steeler]

How about the fact that it's well-documented that Haley can be an ass and that others generally don't like working with him?

I have yet to see any of the dramatics that he has the reputation for, since becoming a Steeler.

Maybe it is more of an indictment of Tomlin and that these coaches don't foresee an SB in the near future.

[steelreserve]

Reporters quoting other reporters. Good news source.

Don't know how much Batch is privy to anymore, but that would be a source that could cause me concern. Dulac quoting Fittipaldo doesn't do it for me.


I didn't take it that way. It's a fan site giving their own take on news stories. I mean, the folks at Steelers Depot are a bit more well-run and offer better-constructed analysis than a typical fan site, but I would stop short of calling them a news outlet in their own right. And if I'm not mistaken, they were quoting two separate reports, not a reporter quoting another reporter.

Who knows. But if people are leaving of their own volition and not for a better job, it does raise an eyebrow. Could be the guy didn't get along with someone personally, or maybe there's more to it. I sure as hell don't know.

[MrPgh]

I have yet to see any of the dramatics that he has the reputation for, since becoming a Steeler.
Maybe it is more of an indictment of Tomlin and that these coaches don't foresee an SB in the near future.

Might be an indictment of someone above Tomlin...

[Mojouw]

Might be an indictment of someone above Tomlin...

Jesus? I bet it is Jesus.

He already tried to smote Wilson with hell-fire.

[Hawkman]

Might be an indictment of someone above Tomlin...

You can't help yourself can you.

[blackngldblood]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2014/01/report-steelers-defensive-assistant-jerry-olsavsky-to-interview-with-bills/

Must be hard to work with Keith Butler and Lebeau. See how easy that is to do?

The Haley is an arrogant prick that no one can work with theme started when he face-planted as a head coach with the Chiefs. Prior to that failure, no one said anything about his being hard to work with. During his tenure with the Cardinals, I remember him being billed as the next offensive mastermind. I bet he is a big jerk. Where there is smoke there is fire.

You know who else was a walking asshole? Buddy Ryan. But the man could coach the hell out of a defense. I personally don't care if Haley is the most hated man in Pittsburgh. He gets this offense scoring points and moving the ball consistently, no one will worry about any of this "Silly Season" non-sense.

I suspect that the Steelers will recover from the loses of those coaching stalwarts in Bicknell, Wilson, and Montgomery.

In closing, don't forget about this:


http://youtu.be/bPK3cDl7Ftw

Finally, if NFL coaches are leaving jobs because they don't "like" their co-workers or bosses...all I have to say is welcome to the real world. That is why it is called "work" not "fun". If you want to go somewhere and hang out with your friends all day; they already invented that. It is called a bar.

Easy man, that's waaaaaaay too much logic and sense in one post. You're going to break the internet!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blackngldblood]

Jesus? I bet it is Jesus.

He already tried to smote Wilson with hell-fire.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!!

God hates the Steelers....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MrPgh]

You can't help yourself can you.

Amazing how easily it hits a nerve with some people. I bet if I were one of those yinzers that constantly bashed Ben you'd love me.



The Haley is an arrogant prick that no one can work with theme started when he face-planted as a head coach with the Chiefs. Prior to that failure, no one said anything about his being hard to work with. During his tenure with the Cardinals, I remember him being billed as the next offensive mastermind. I bet he is a big jerk. Where there is smoke there is fire.

Guess you never heard about him getting into arguments with Boldin or Fitzgerald? How convenient of you to not mention that. Let's not forget Whiz was the head coach of Arizona at the time. Rather naive to assume he didn't have a lot of input in that offense.

[Mojouw]

Guess you never heard about him getting into arguments with Boldin or Fitzgerald? How convenient of you to not mention that. Let's not forget Whiz was the head coach of Arizona at the time. Rather naive to assume he didn't have a lot of input in that offense.

Look. I have said (in almost all of the multiple threads where you take up this issue) that I have no doubt that Haley is an abrasive jerk. I agree with you that there is too much smoke for there not to be truth to that particular fire. Does it date back to his time in Arizona? More than likely. However, the idea that someone is a jerk is no basis for the series of staggeringly illogical and speculative leaps you have made in several posts across multiple threads.

I am only arguing for the application of logic and reason. Attempting to blame Haley's personality or lack thereof for every problem and situation that the Steelers have encountered or will encounter recently is just silly.

I thought about an even longer post with facts and links to back up some points comparing Haley's offenses, both here and in Arizona, to support the guy's ability to call plays and design a scheme; but then I realized that in the various threads that you have started a line of argument against Rooney, Tomlin, or Haley whenever you have been confronted with facts that don't fit you story, you simply disappear and restart the argument on another thread.

Bottom line is that Arians got given the boot because the offense struggled to score points (ranked between 12 and 21 his entire tenure here in points scored) and his offensive scheme exposes his QB to a great deal of contact.

Haley was brought in because he claims he can fix that. In two seasons he has struggled to score more points, but has gotten the QB hit less. Based on the closing part of the season and the hiring of Munchak, there is a possibility that in 2014 he can recreate the offensive success he saw during his time with the Cardinals (7th and 3rd in points scored). Again, using some logic -- not anything to do with his personality -- if the offense does not improve on its #16 rank in points scored from 2013 then Haley will be fired; just as Arians was.

[Dwinsgames]

Look. I have said (in almost all of the multiple threads where you take up this issue) that I have no doubt that Haley is an abrasive jerk. I agree with you that there is too much smoke for there not to be truth to that particular fire. Does it date back to his time in Arizona? More than likely. However, the idea that someone is a jerk is no basis for the series of staggeringly illogical and speculative leaps you have made in several posts across multiple threads.

I am only arguing for the application of logic and reason. Attempting to blame Haley's personality or lack thereof for every problem and situation that the Steelers have encountered or will encounter recently is just silly.

I thought about an even longer post with facts and links to back up some points comparing Haley's offenses, both here and in Arizona, to support the guy's ability to call plays and design a scheme; but then I realized that in the various threads that you have started a line of argument against Rooney, Tomlin, or Haley whenever you have been confronted with facts that don't fit you story, you simply disappear and restart the argument on another thread.

Bottom line is that Arians got given the boot because the offense struggled to score points (ranked between 12 and 21 his entire tenure here in points scored) and his offensive scheme exposes his QB to a great deal of contact.

Haley was brought in because he claims he can fix that. In two seasons he has struggled to score more points, but has gotten the QB hit less. Based on the closing part of the season and the hiring of Munchak, there is a possibility that in 2014 he can recreate the offensive success he saw during his time with the Cardinals (7th and 3rd in points scored). Again, using some logic -- not anything to do with his personality -- if the offense does not improve on its #16 rank in points scored from 2013 then Haley will be fired; just as Arians was.


lets not forget Art2 ....

[Mojouw]

lets not forget Art2 ....


I know, but the posts suck me in every time. Maybe I just like to argue?

Finally, for anyone still interested, this is what a properly dysfunctional and toxic NFL team looks like:

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9343/scott-linehan

When the Steelers get there, then we can re-open this debate.

[Hawkman]

Amazing how easily it hits a nerve with some people. I bet if I were one of those yinzers that constantly bashed Ben you'd love me.




No I wouldn't. You just happen to say the same thing over and over, without any constructive content. It so nice to read threads that you can't possibly turn into a Haley or Rooney bashing.

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I know, but the posts suck me in every time.




Yep, me too! Probably what MrPgh wants.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I know, but the posts suck me in every time. Maybe I just like to argue?

Finally, for anyone still interested, this is what a properly dysfunctional and toxic NFL team looks like:

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9343/scott-linehan

When the Steelers get there, then we can re-open this debate.

"passing game coordinator"

http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/dr-evil-bunny-quotes.jpg

:lol:

[zulater]

Reporters quoting other reporters. Good news source.

Don't know how much Batch is privy to anymore, but that would be a source that could cause me concern. Dulac quoting Fittipaldo doesn't do it for me.

Dulac had Bicknell leaving before anyone else. So I wouldn't dismiss what he has to say out of hand.

But honestly it really doesn't matter. Coaches often don't get along with each other. As long as you don't get a Buddy Ryan - Kevin Gilbride situation it's just part of the process.

[Dwinsgames]

I know, but the posts suck me in every time. Maybe I just like to argue?

Finally, for anyone still interested, this is what a properly dysfunctional and toxic NFL team looks like:

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9343/scott-linehan

When the Steelers get there, then we can re-open this debate.


looks like they are doing the same on the Def side of the ball LMAO http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000319405/article/rod-marinelli-new-cowboys-dc-kiffin-remains-on-staff


but but but we are the dysfunctional ones

[86WARD]

Hating on Todd Haley - Must be the offseason...lol.

[MrPgh]

Look. I have said (in almost all of the multiple threads where you take up this issue) that I have no doubt that Haley is an abrasive jerk. I agree with you that there is too much smoke for there not to be truth to that particular fire. Does it date back to his time in Arizona? More than likely. However, the idea that someone is a jerk is no basis for the series of staggeringly illogical and speculative leaps you have made in several posts across multiple threads.

I am only arguing for the application of logic and reason. Attempting to blame Haley's personality or lack thereof for every problem and situation that the Steelers have encountered or will encounter recently is just silly.

If you're referring to the recent departure of one of the defensive assistants, I don't recall ever blaming that on Haley. If anything, I've had words put in my mouth about that one. I did say there could be bigger problems in the organization besides Haley, but I sure as hell didn't blame that one particular issue on Haley.


I thought about an even longer post with facts and links to back up some points comparing Haley's offenses, both here and in Arizona, to support the guy's ability to call plays and design a scheme; but then I realized that in the various threads that you have started a line of argument against Rooney, Tomlin, or Haley whenever you have been confronted with facts that don't fit you story, you simply disappear and restart the argument on another thread.

So if Haley is/was a great play caller, why hasn't it shown in Pittsburgh? Why is this offense at it's best when Haley ISN'T calling the plays? That's great that you have facts to show he was a great play caller in AZ, but that hasn't been the case in Pittsburgh. My question to you is, why do you get so easily irritated when criticism of Art II is brought up? Is he beyond criticism?

So in regards to Haley, using some logic, one of two things must be happening: 1.) Despite some of the success he had in Arizona, he simply isn't that good of a coordinator, or at least he's not a good fit in Pittsburgh. 2.) He has a mandate to run a certain style of offense from someone above him even though it may not fit the Steelers personnel. Those ARE rational things to ponder, and like it or not, some of that pondering points to Art II. Personally I like a lot of your posts, so lets not stoop to Dwinsgames' level here.

And in regards to me "disappearing," I have a life outside of this forum. Being that Steeler season is over there's really no reason for me to be glued to it.


Bottom line is that Arians got given the boot because the offense struggled to score points (ranked between 12 and 21 his entire tenure here in points scored) and his offensive scheme exposes his QB to a great deal of contact.

Didn't he also get the boot because the running game was inadequate? That's only gotten worse under Haley. Ben still got hit a lot over Haley's time as OC. Really that hitting didn't start to go down until the Steelers turned to the no-huddle more often and kept defenses from substituting. That is something Arians should have done. From what I remember he was too concerned about the young WRs and the ever-changing o-line to run it unless the Steelers were down.


Haley was brought in because he claims he can fix that. In two seasons he has struggled to score more points, but has gotten the QB hit less. Based on the closing part of the season and the hiring of Munchak, there is a possibility that in 2014 he can recreate the offensive success he saw during his time with the Cardinals (7th and 3rd in points scored). Again, using some logic -- not anything to do with his personality -- if the offense does not improve on its #16 rank in points scored from 2013 then Haley will be fired; just as Arians was.

And to be a better offense, the unit has to get away from what it was doing in the first season and a half under Haley and focus more on what they did in the second half of 2013. Whatever the original vision for this offense was when Haley was hired, whether it was from Haley himself or someone above him, ultimately failed. If the Steelers realize this they have a chance to be better in 2014. Yet if they don't and they go back to trying to ram their heads into a brick wall, then would you concede there are some significant organizational problems?

[Dwinsgames]

so lets not stoop to Dwinsgames' level here.



first thanks for the heads up this was here to those who told me ....

stooping to my level ?

wow ... this coming from the guy who said Art 2 is nothing but the winner in a sperm lottery ( I can link the post if you need reminded and no need to look for it to edit because it was quoted so you cant edit that )...

[MrPgh]

first thanks for the heads up this was here to those who told me ....

stooping to my level ?

wow ... this coming from the guy who said Art 2 is nothing but the winner in a sperm lottery ( I can link the post if you need reminded and no need to look for it to edit because it was quoted so you cant edit that )...


For someone you put on ignore, you sure do love reading my posts. The difference between me and you is that I don't insult other posters on this board. Disagree with them at times, yes, but I don't make it personal. You do. As for what I've said about Art II, he doesn't post on this board does he? He's a public figure, just like Goodell. You want everyone on this board who has insulted Goodell banned?

[Count Steeler]

Let's not forget that the Steeler offense was doing quite well at the beginning of last season. The wheels fell off when Ben got injured on an unlucky play.

[MrPgh]

Let's not forget that the Steeler offense was doing quite well at the beginning of last season. The wheels fell off when Ben got injured on an unlucky play.

Let's not also forget Ben's play on third down & long kept a lot of those drives alive. It was the main reason some considered him a viable MVP candidate. Needing your QB to bail you out on 3rd downs all the time was no way to sustain an offense. The running game in 2012 had a nice three game stretch, but that was it.

[Jaucer]

I'll throw a monkey wrench into both arguments. Being a good OC at designing plays and being a good OC at calling plays are two totally different things. I had a head coach in high school that could devise the best game plan but for some reason when game time came around he completely forgot everything we worked on all week. So maybe, just maybe Haley is great at devising a game plan but totally has a brain fart during the game. Therefore Ben remembers what the game plan was and can execute it during the game with no huddle because he is now in charge and remembers what it was that Haley wanted to do in the first place.

This type of shit happens all the time in the business an personal world. How many times have you had a great "game plan" only to completely forget about it when the time come to implement it?

[Mojouw]

If you're referring to the recent departure of one of the defensive assistants, I don't recall ever blaming that on Haley. If anything, I've had words put in my mouth about that one. I did say there could be bigger problems in the organization besides Haley, but I sure as hell didn't blame that one particular issue on Haley.

I was referring to the departure of Kugler, Montgomery, and Wilson. As I have stated, I honestly believe that 2 of the 3 left in order to pursue job opportunities in their chosen field (football coaching -- not just NFL coaching) that may potentially serve to further their chances for future advancement. As for Wilson, there are so many ways to look at it and until their is a more definitive statement from either the Steelers or Wilson, there is no way to know. Like I said, Haley is most likely a jerk. Big deal. I do not think the team has lost coaches because of it. Maybe in the case of Wilson, maybe. But more than likely he realized that due to catastrophic outside circumstances, he had hit a glass ceiling on Pittsburgh. Time to make a lateral move in order to advance up the coaching ladder later.




So if Haley is/was a great play caller, why hasn't it shown in Pittsburgh? Why is this offense at it's best when Haley ISN'T calling the plays? That's great that you have facts to show he was a great play caller in AZ, but that hasn't been the case in Pittsburgh. My question to you is, why do you get so easily irritated when criticism of Art II is brought up? Is he beyond criticism?

So in regards to Haley, using some logic, one of two things must be happening: 1.) Despite some of the success he had in Arizona, he simply isn't that good of a coordinator, or at least he's not a good fit in Pittsburgh. 2.) He has a mandate to run a certain style of offense from someone above him even though it may not fit the Steelers personnel. Those ARE rational things to ponder, and like it or not, some of that pondering points to Art II. Personally I like a lot of your posts, so lets not stoop to Dwinsgames' level here.

As I previously posted. Arians ran between the #12 (highest ranked) and #21 ranked offense in the league based on points scored. Haley has ran the #16 ranked offense this year and in 2012 he had the #22 ranked offense based on points scored last year. My irritation is that it can readily be demonstrated that your steadfast belief that Art II delivered a mandate to run the ball more frequently is incorrect. What was actually said by Art II was that the Steelers need to run the ball more effectively. This statement was selectively quoted and mangled by the media and others into a simplistic mandate from the ownership that the Steelers had lost their identity and needed to return to a simpler more physical brand of football and run the ball at a greater rate than under Arians. A quick look at some data points can also serve to back this line of reasoning up.

In 2011, Arians last season as co-ordinator, Pro Football Reference has the Steelers listed as running 434 rushing attempts and running 539 pass plays. I am discounting the 2012 season as the injuries to Roethlisberger clearly greatly altered the play-calling in 3-4 games. So then looking at 2013 Pro Football Reference has the Steelers listed as calling 394 rushing attempts and 586 passes.

I do not see a dramatically altered ratio of run to pass plays in the offense. If, for the sake of argument, we take as a given that there is interference/input from the owner on the type or style of offense that the Steelers are to be running; what form does that take? It clearly does not take the form of an increase in rushing attempts. Hell, let's look at 2012. 412 rushing attempts against 574 passing attempts. That is still a pass-centered offense even in a season where I remember several games that the forward pass was treated like a toxic substance due to terrible QB play. So does it take the form of the types of plays that Haley is calling? As I have documented before, Haley is getting the QB hit less and calling shorter passing plays (based on yards/attempt #'s). In that I do so a response to statements from ownership. Art II was pretty clear in expressing his belief that it was a piss-poor idea to expose the 100+ million dollar franchise player to a consistent battering. So there is a potential correlation with that and Haley's man-crush on the Antonio Brown bubble-screen. There is also the concept that Arians is arguably a fan of running a scheme that is (at least) conceptually related to "Air Coryell" while Haley is running something that seems to have its roots in more of what Ron Erhardt would do. So which drive what? Ownership or the styles of the guy calling the plays? One play caller favors deep passes one favors shorter higher percentage throws.


And in regards to me "disappearing," I have a life outside of this forum. Being that Steeler season is over there's really no reason for me to be glued to it.

This is not to do with the frequency of posts. I have a busy and stressful life outside of internet football boards as well. My comment was a swipe at the fact that you have yet to post anything beyond speculation and vaguely worded condemnations of some combination of Haley, Tomlin, Art II, and the janitorial staff at the Steelers' facilities in every post. Then, when these speculative criticisms (using plural here is a stretch as it is really the same critique just dressed up in a slightly different outfit each time) are countered with factual data from other members of this forum, you cease the discussion or at most respond with some hand-waving half-mumbled response about "homers" or "yinzers" and then re-repost the same cobbled together crap in another thread.




Didn't he also get the boot because the running game was inadequate? That's only gotten worse under Haley. Ben still got hit a lot over Haley's time as OC. Really that hitting didn't start to go down until the Steelers turned to the no-huddle more often and kept defenses from substituting. That is something Arians should have done. From what I remember he was too concerned about the young WRs and the ever-changing o-line to run it unless the Steelers were down.

Yes. Part of Arians troubles were that the run game seemed to be ineffective when needed most. Short yardage, late game clock killing, etc. He also seemed to employ the no-huddle only as a last resort type of option for when the offense struggled. I remember constantly complaining that Arians was superfluous and Ben was better at calling the plays anyway, so why employ the bum? Much the same argument could be applied to 2013 and Haley. However, what is clear is that starting somewhat in 2012 and definitely so in 2013, when the Steelers ran the no-huddle they were running Haley's plays. Those plays worked. So maybe there is something to the argument posted by others that Haley can design plays, but calls a shit game? Maybe there is a correlation/causation debate with the 2013 success of the no huddle, the stabilization of the line, and the return to health and effectiveness of Bell and Miller? Who really knows? Certainly not me, I'm just one idiot with a TV and computer.

I do not think the hitting went down solely because of the no huddle. Beachum, while not a stone wall at LT, performed well above the turnstile levels of blocking that Adams provided in the first 1/4 of the season. Velasco eventually prevented the middle of the line from being the blocking equivalent of a traffic cone. Bell eventually ran effectively enough to keep defenses honest or even a bit concerned about the run game. Throw the no-huddle in the mix (which I must point out the team did not run exclusively) and of course the QB is going to get hit less. The #'s say far less. But Haley also got his QB hit at a rate lesser than Arains and on par with the rate in 2013 in 2012. That was without the no huddle, but more effective tackle play. So, again, which came first the chicken or the egg?

Keep in mind that for all the benefits of a no-huddle offense very few teams have ever ran it exclusively for extended stretches. The K-gun was one of the last.




And to be a better offense, the unit has to get away from what it was doing in the first season and a half under Haley and focus more on what they did in the second half of 2013. Whatever the original vision for this offense was when Haley was hired, whether it was from Haley himself or someone above him, ultimately failed. If the Steelers realize this they have a chance to be better in 2014. Yet if they don't and they go back to trying to ram their heads into a brick wall, then would you concede there are some significant organizational problems?

What was the offensive failure? The planned lynch-pin of a young rebuilt line gets hurt a handful of snaps into the season. The "solution" at LT turns out to be atrocious against actual NFL pass-rushers. No one can design and implement an offense that contends well with those factors. Does this "excuse" Haley and others from blame and criticism? Of course not. It does, however, serve as a more than adequate explanation for the events of the 2013 season.

So we can take it that Haley's offense failed or we can argue that we have not yet even seen the damn thing, since the pieces needed to run that offense are maybe now finally in place. Also, I am not certain that what was going on for the Roethlisberger games in 2012 was that terrible. I seem to remember the word MVP getting tossed around a bunch. Of course, we may have different definitions of the word "failure".


So after a far too wordy post, I am left with the same basic point I have tried to state prior. Your posts have an a priori assumption behind them. You are convinced that something is rotten in Denmark. Denmark, in this case, being the Steelers' organizational structure. Everything connected with the team is taken to be skewed and influenced by that event. My argument is that there are empirical facts and evidence that do not support the series of speculative assumptions that underpin your central argument. You have done nothing to convince me otherwise.

[Hawkman]

I was referring to the departure of Kugler, Montgomery, and Wilson. As I have stated, I honestly believe that 2 of the 3 left in order to pursue job opportunities in their chosen field (football coaching -- not just NFL coaching) that may potentially serve to further their chances for future advancement. As for Wilson, there are so many ways to look at it and until their is a more definitive statement from either the Steelers or Wilson, there is no way to know. Like I said, Haley is most likely a jerk. Big deal. I do not think the team has lost coaches because of it. Maybe in the case of Wilson, maybe. But more than likely he realized that due to catastrophic outside circumstances, he had hit a glass ceiling on Pittsburgh. Time to make a lateral move in order to advance up the coaching ladder later.





As I previously posted. Arians ran between the #12 (highest ranked) and #21 ranked offense in the league based on points scored. Haley has ran the #16 ranked offense this year and in 2012 he had the #22 ranked offense based on points scored last year. My irritation is that it can readily be demonstrated that your steadfast belief that Art II delivered a mandate to run the ball more frequently is incorrect. What was actually said by Art II was that the Steelers need to run the ball more effectively. This statement was selectively quoted and mangled by the media and others into a simplistic mandate from the ownership that the Steelers had lost their identity and needed to return to a simpler more physical brand of football and run the ball at a greater rate than under Arians. A quick look at some data points can also serve to back this line of reasoning up.

In 2011, Arians last season as co-ordinator, Pro Football Reference has the Steelers listed as running 434 rushing attempts and running 539 pass plays. I am discounting the 2012 season as the injuries to Roethlisberger clearly greatly altered the play-calling in 3-4 games. So then looking at 2013 Pro Football Reference has the Steelers listed as calling 394 rushing attempts and 586 passes.

I do not see a dramatically altered ratio of run to pass plays in the offense. If, for the sake of argument, we take as a given that there is interference/input from the owner on the type or style of offense that the Steelers are to be running; what form does that take? It clearly does not take the form of an increase in rushing attempts. Hell, let's look at 2012. 412 rushing attempts against 574 passing attempts. That is still a pass-centered offense even in a season where I remember several games that the forward pass was treated like a toxic substance due to terrible QB play. So does it take the form of the types of plays that Haley is calling? As I have documented before, Haley is getting the QB hit less and calling shorter passing plays (based on yards/attempt #'s). In that I do so a response to statements from ownership. Art II was pretty clear in expressing his belief that it was a piss-poor idea to expose the 100+ million dollar franchise player to a consistent battering. So there is a potential correlation with that and Haley's man-crush on the Antonio Brown bubble-screen. There is also the concept that Arians is arguably a fan of running a scheme that is (at least) conceptually related to "Air Coryell" while Haley is running something that seems to have its roots in more of what Ron Erhardt would do. So which drive what? Ownership or the styles of the guy calling the plays? One play caller favors deep passes one favors shorter higher percentage throws.



This is not to do with the frequency of posts. I have a busy and stressful life outside of internet football boards as well. My comment was a swipe at the fact that you have yet to post anything beyond speculation and vaguely worded condemnations of some combination of Haley, Tomlin, Art II, and the janitorial staff at the Steelers' facilities in every post. Then, when these speculative criticisms (using plural here is a stretch as it is really the same critique just dressed up in a slightly different outfit each time) are countered with factual data from other members of this forum, you cease the discussion or at most respond with some hand-waving half-mumbled response about "homers" or "yinzers" and then re-repost the same cobbled together crap in another thread.





Yes. Part of Arians troubles were that the run game seemed to be ineffective when needed most. Short yardage, late game clock killing, etc. He also seemed to employ the no-huddle only as a last resort type of option for when the offense struggled. I remember constantly complaining that Arians was superfluous and Ben was better at calling the plays anyway, so why employ the bum? Much the same argument could be applied to 2013 and Haley. However, what is clear is that starting somewhat in 2012 and definitely so in 2013, when the Steelers ran the no-huddle they were running Haley's plays. Those plays worked. So maybe there is something to the argument posted by others that Haley can design plays, but calls a shit game? Maybe there is a correlation/causation debate with the 2013 success of the no huddle, the stabilization of the line, and the return to health and effectiveness of Bell and Miller? Who really knows? Certainly not me, I'm just one idiot with a TV and computer.

I do not think the hitting went down solely because of the no huddle. Beachum, while not a stone wall at LT, performed well above the turnstile levels of blocking that Adams provided in the first 1/4 of the season. Velasco eventually prevented the middle of the line from being the blocking equivalent of a traffic cone. Bell eventually ran effectively enough to keep defenses honest or even a bit concerned about the run game. Throw the no-huddle in the mix (which I must point out the team did not run exclusively) and of course the QB is going to get hit less. The #'s say far less. But Haley also got his QB hit at a rate lesser than Arains and on par with the rate in 2013 in 2012. That was without the no huddle, but more effective tackle play. So, again, which came first the chicken or the egg?

Keep in mind that for all the benefits of a no-huddle offense very few teams have ever ran it exclusively for extended stretches. The K-gun was one of the last.





What was the offensive failure? The planned lynch-pin of a young rebuilt line gets hurt a handful of snaps into the season. The "solution" at LT turns out to be atrocious against actual NFL pass-rushers. No one can design and implement an offense that contends well with those factors. Does this "excuse" Haley and others from blame and criticism? Of course not. It does, however, serve as a more than adequate explanation for the events of the 2013 season.

So we can take it that Haley's offense failed or we can argue that we have not yet even seen the damn thing, since the pieces needed to run that offense are maybe now finally in place. Also, I am not certain that what was going on for the Roethlisberger games in 2012 was that terrible. I seem to remember the word MVP getting tossed around a bunch. Of course, we may have different definitions of the word "failure".


So after a far too wordy post, I am left with the same basic point I have tried to state prior. Your posts have an a priori assumption behind them. You are convinced that something is rotten in Denmark. Denmark, in this case, being the Steelers' organizational structure. Everything connected with the team is taken to be skewed and influenced by that event. My argument is that there are empirical facts and evidence that do not support the series of speculative assumptions that underpin your central argument. You have done nothing to convince me otherwise.

NICE!!!! Won't do any good.....but NICE!!

[86WARD]

I was referring to the departure of Kugler, Montgomery, and Wilson. As I have stated, I honestly believe that 2 of the 3 left in order to pursue job opportunities in their chosen field (football coaching -- not just NFL coaching) that may potentially serve to further their chances for future advancement. As for Wilson, there are so many ways to look at it and until their is a more definitive statement from either the Steelers or Wilson, there is no way to know. Like I said, Haley is most likely a jerk. Big deal. I do not think the team has lost coaches because of it. Maybe in the case of Wilson, maybe. But more than likely he realized that due to catastrophic outside circumstances, he had hit a glass ceiling on Pittsburgh. Time to make a lateral move in order to advance up the coaching ladder later.





As I previously posted. Arians ran between the #12 (highest ranked) and #21 ranked offense in the league based on points scored. Haley has ran the #16 ranked offense this year and in 2012 he had the #22 ranked offense based on points scored last year. My irritation is that it can readily be demonstrated that your steadfast belief that Art II delivered a mandate to run the ball more frequently is incorrect. What was actually said by Art II was that the Steelers need to run the ball more effectively. This statement was selectively quoted and mangled by the media and others into a simplistic mandate from the ownership that the Steelers had lost their identity and needed to return to a simpler more physical brand of football and run the ball at a greater rate than under Arians. A quick look at some data points can also serve to back this line of reasoning up.

In 2011, Arians last season as co-ordinator, Pro Football Reference has the Steelers listed as running 434 rushing attempts and running 539 pass plays. I am discounting the 2012 season as the injuries to Roethlisberger clearly greatly altered the play-calling in 3-4 games. So then looking at 2013 Pro Football Reference has the Steelers listed as calling 394 rushing attempts and 586 passes.

I do not see a dramatically altered ratio of run to pass plays in the offense. If, for the sake of argument, we take as a given that there is interference/input from the owner on the type or style of offense that the Steelers are to be running; what form does that take? It clearly does not take the form of an increase in rushing attempts. Hell, let's look at 2012. 412 rushing attempts against 574 passing attempts. That is still a pass-centered offense even in a season where I remember several games that the forward pass was treated like a toxic substance due to terrible QB play. So does it take the form of the types of plays that Haley is calling? As I have documented before, Haley is getting the QB hit less and calling shorter passing plays (based on yards/attempt #'s). In that I do so a response to statements from ownership. Art II was pretty clear in expressing his belief that it was a piss-poor idea to expose the 100+ million dollar franchise player to a consistent battering. So there is a potential correlation with that and Haley's man-crush on the Antonio Brown bubble-screen. There is also the concept that Arians is arguably a fan of running a scheme that is (at least) conceptually related to "Air Coryell" while Haley is running something that seems to have its roots in more of what Ron Erhardt would do. So which drive what? Ownership or the styles of the guy calling the plays? One play caller favors deep passes one favors shorter higher percentage throws.



This is not to do with the frequency of posts. I have a busy and stressful life outside of internet football boards as well. My comment was a swipe at the fact that you have yet to post anything beyond speculation and vaguely worded condemnations of some combination of Haley, Tomlin, Art II, and the janitorial staff at the Steelers' facilities in every post. Then, when these speculative criticisms (using plural here is a stretch as it is really the same critique just dressed up in a slightly different outfit each time) are countered with factual data from other members of this forum, you cease the discussion or at most respond with some hand-waving half-mumbled response about "homers" or "yinzers" and then re-repost the same cobbled together crap in another thread.





Yes. Part of Arians troubles were that the run game seemed to be ineffective when needed most. Short yardage, late game clock killing, etc. He also seemed to employ the no-huddle only as a last resort type of option for when the offense struggled. I remember constantly complaining that Arians was superfluous and Ben was better at calling the plays anyway, so why employ the bum? Much the same argument could be applied to 2013 and Haley. However, what is clear is that starting somewhat in 2012 and definitely so in 2013, when the Steelers ran the no-huddle they were running Haley's plays. Those plays worked. So maybe there is something to the argument posted by others that Haley can design plays, but calls a shit game? Maybe there is a correlation/causation debate with the 2013 success of the no huddle, the stabilization of the line, and the return to health and effectiveness of Bell and Miller? Who really knows? Certainly not me, I'm just one idiot with a TV and computer.

I do not think the hitting went down solely because of the no huddle. Beachum, while not a stone wall at LT, performed well above the turnstile levels of blocking that Adams provided in the first 1/4 of the season. Velasco eventually prevented the middle of the line from being the blocking equivalent of a traffic cone. Bell eventually ran effectively enough to keep defenses honest or even a bit concerned about the run game. Throw the no-huddle in the mix (which I must point out the team did not run exclusively) and of course the QB is going to get hit less. The #'s say far less. But Haley also got his QB hit at a rate lesser than Arains and on par with the rate in 2013 in 2012. That was without the no huddle, but more effective tackle play. So, again, which came first the chicken or the egg?

Keep in mind that for all the benefits of a no-huddle offense very few teams have ever ran it exclusively for extended stretches. The K-gun was one of the last.





What was the offensive failure? The planned lynch-pin of a young rebuilt line gets hurt a handful of snaps into the season. The "solution" at LT turns out to be atrocious against actual NFL pass-rushers. No one can design and implement an offense that contends well with those factors. Does this "excuse" Haley and others from blame and criticism? Of course not. It does, however, serve as a more than adequate explanation for the events of the 2013 season.

So we can take it that Haley's offense failed or we can argue that we have not yet even seen the damn thing, since the pieces needed to run that offense are maybe now finally in place. Also, I am not certain that what was going on for the Roethlisberger games in 2012 was that terrible. I seem to remember the word MVP getting tossed around a bunch. Of course, we may have different definitions of the word "failure".


So after a far too wordy post, I am left with the same basic point I have tried to state prior. Your posts have an a priori assumption behind them. You are convinced that something is rotten in Denmark. Denmark, in this case, being the Steelers' organizational structure. Everything connected with the team is taken to be skewed and influenced by that event. My argument is that there are empirical facts and evidence that do not support the series of speculative assumptions that underpin your central argument. You have done nothing to convince me otherwise.

Who is even taking the time to read all that...lol.