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GBMelBlount
01-02-2014, 09:52 PM
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2014/01/steelers-2014-draft-needs-offense/

Aussie_steeler
01-03-2014, 01:12 AM
The article is correct. Give Ben a big bodied WR, a change of pace back to complement LeVeon and possibly a TE to groom (if the draft cards fall... remember Tyler Eifert was on the board in round 1 last draft and he was passed on)

But this team needs young players on D and plenty in the secondary.

Seven
01-03-2014, 03:25 AM
My opinion?

Round 1: Wide receiver

Remaining rounds: Defense

GBMelBlount
01-03-2014, 06:09 AM
My opinion?

Round 1: Wide receiver

Remaining rounds: Defense

Seems like the consensus is a WR (and possibly LT) and defense and the debate is simply WHERE to grab one.

Steeldude
01-03-2014, 06:14 AM
WR in round 1? Why? WRs can be found in the later rounds. I don't want another Burress, Holmes or Edwards. The team needs a LT, ILB, CB, S and probably a OLB if Worilds can't be re-signed.

GBMelBlount
01-03-2014, 06:23 AM
WR in round 1? Why? WRs can be found in the later rounds. I don't want another Burress, Holmes or Edwards. The team needs a LT, ILB, CB, S and probably a OLB if Worilds can't be re-signed.

Ben was sacked 7 times in the last 7 games.

Why is LT more important than WR in your mind?

Mojouw
01-03-2014, 08:14 AM
Ben was sacked 7 times in the last 7 games.

Why is LT more important than WR in your mind?

Those last 7 games were the Browns twice, the Bengals (minus several of their top pass rushers due to injuries), the Ravens (having a down year rushing the passer), the Packers (who got a great deal of pressure until Matthews, their only legitimate pass rusher, was hurt and left the game), the Dolphins, and the Lions. I haven't been able to find the stats on hits, hurries, and knockdowns for the last seven games. But pass rushing and by extension offensive line protection is more than just sacks. I don't remember watching many Steelers games this year, except for the final Browns game, and feeling like the line was "secure".

IF this team can lock down the LT position for the next several years with a top tackle prospect in the first round, they would be insane not to do so. They have been looking for one since Marvel Smith left town. Imagine the upgrade to the line if a rookie high quality LT was inserted into the line-up, Beachum moves to LG, POuncey returns to health and high-quality form, Decastro continues to develop, and either Adams or Gilbert asserts themselves at RT. Then you have a young, talented starting five, and actual depth for the inevitable 436 injuries the line suffers each year. First guys off the bench could be Velasco, Foster, Adams/Gilbert, Wallace; rather than pretzel venders and Guy Whimper.

Meanwhile, this team has a track record of finding and developing mid-round WR's. Not so much with linemen. The Steelers have tried the bargain basement tackle route and it has not been a total failure, but has yet to yield a complete solution at LT. And, no, I do not believe that Beachum is the answer long-term. He will likely always have problems one on one with speed-rushers.

Craic
01-03-2014, 08:17 AM
WR in round 1? Why? WRs can be found in the later rounds. I don't want another Burress, Holmes or Edwards. The team needs a LT, ILB, CB, S and probably a OLB if Worilds can't be re-signed.

Burress? I wouldn't mind another Burress. Sure, he had his issues, but the man put up the numbers. Holmes was a very good addition talent wise and also put up the numbers. We wouldn't have a sixth SB trophy if it wasn't for him.

However, I agree, I don't think WR is a big need. We have Brown as our number one. Manny is a decent number two, and truth be told Cotchery picks up anywhere that Many may let down. We have two young kids that are heading into their sophomore season and I expect one of them to step it up. If we go anywhere in the offense for this draft, I'd prefer we go TE in the first round if someone is there. If not, then ILB to replace an ailing Clark, or pick up a DB.

zulater
01-03-2014, 09:09 AM
I think Beachum gave up 2 sacks in the last 8 games. I'm not sure why that's seen as a problem? And I think a big bodied receiver who could beat coverage and catch would put this offense over the top. When you have a recieiver who can elevate above the coverage you're going to complete a lot more deep balls.

Steelman
01-03-2014, 09:22 AM
There are plenty of mid-round receiving talents that would fit this team well. (Robinson, Moncrief, Washington) So I think it would be more beneficial to nab a great defensive talent at 15 unless a top-tier tackle falls.

Psycho Ward 86
01-03-2014, 10:36 AM
lets be honest guys, Ben's deep ball accuracy is horrible. Like, really bad since 2005, but he's bailed us out of so many games that people dont really touch on the subject. For whatever reason he seems to have regressed in that area. It became more and more apparent down the stretch especially the packer and browns games (yes, weather can be a factor but elite QB's like aaron rodgers and tom brady still manage to play extremely well in the snow). All we can do to fix that is improve the run game and therefore the playaction, get ben another legitimate downfield threat other than Brown, and Ben just needs to flat out get better at it. He could have broken some of the games wide open if he got better at it. Brown mightve had double digit TD's and led the league in receiving if just a handful of those deep balls that misfired actually connected.

If a Sammy Watkins or Mike Evans drops, we should think about it imo. But if a player like Clinton-Dix or Dennard is still on the board, its a no brainer to bail on that plan.

zulater
01-03-2014, 11:46 AM
lets be honest guys, Ben's deep ball accuracy is horrible. Like, really bad since 2005, but he's bailed us out of so many games that people dont really touch on the subject. For whatever reason he seems to have regressed in that area. It became more and more apparent down the stretch especially the packer and browns games (yes, weather can be a factor but elite QB's like aaron rodgers and tom brady still manage to play extremely well in the snow). All we can do to fix that is improve the run game and therefore the playaction, get ben another legitimate downfield threat other than Brown, and Ben just needs to flat out get better at it. He could have broken some of the games wide open if he got better at it. Brown mightve had double digit TD's and led the league in receiving if just a handful of those deep balls that misfired actually connected.

If a Sammy Watkins or Mike Evans drops, we should think about it imo. But if a player like Clinton-Dix or Dennard is still on the board, its a no brainer to bail on that plan.

You're right it's not good. But he didn't miss by much on several. Give him a guy who's 3-4 inches taller and don't be surprised if he hits another half dozen next year.

Dwinsgames
01-03-2014, 11:57 AM
Trade down .......

get a WR with the additional 2 or 3 you pick up for making the move

GBMelBlount
01-03-2014, 12:10 PM
You're right it's not good.

But he didn't miss by much on several.

Give him a guy who's 3-4 inches taller and don't be surprised if he hits another half dozen next year.

OK Mr. Horseshoe Handgrenade. :lol:

GBMelBlount
01-03-2014, 12:19 PM
Since it sounds like we are being serious about a WR early I am curious how much 1st round picks hit versus later rounds.

Don't only a very small percentage of drafted receivers really excel in the pros?

Let me take a stab at this.

Say there are about 30-45 really good (#1 / #2 ) receivers in the nfl.

At a career of maybe 8 years that might be 4-6 good receivers per draft?

So how many receivers are picked in a typical draft in say 7 rounds, 35?

So maybe 10%-15% of drafted receivers excel in the pros?

So here is the question...WHEN does it become a true crap shoot with receivers.

For instance, while the entire draft is a crap shoot a very high percentage offensive lineman chosen in the top 15 excel in the pros.

Is this true for receivers as well?

Or are your chances in the middle of the 3rd round typically about as good as the middle of the 1st with receivers?

...and how deep is this draft at receiver?

Dwinsgames
01-03-2014, 12:29 PM
Since it sounds like we are being serious about a WR early I am curious how much 1st round picks hit versus later rounds.

Don't only a very small percentage of drafted receivers really excel in the pros?

Let me take a stab at this.

Say there are about 30-45 really good (#1 / #2 ) receivers in the nfl.

At a career of maybe 8 years that might be 4-6 good receivers per draft?

So how many receivers are picked in a typical draft in say 7 rounds, 35?

So maybe 10%-15% of drafted receivers excel in the pros?

So here is the question...WHEN does it become a true crap shoot with receivers.

For instance, while the entire draft is a crap shoot a very high percentage offensive lineman chosen in the top 15 excel in the pros.

Is this true for receivers as well?

Or are your chances in the middle of the 3rd round typically about as good as the middle of the 1st with receivers?

...and how deep is this draft at receiver?


to much math to mess with IMO ...

let your eye balls figure it out

I personally had 5 WRs in last years draft I liked 3rd round or later ...... 4 of the 5 had more production than Wheaton (King being the oddball but he was drafted by Denver whom was loaded at WR ) 2 of the remaining 4 where taken 5th round and UDFA ....

its not about where you draft them as much as it is what you are asking them to do in your system and if that fits their skillset ..... far to often mid/ late round WRs are looked to take on the full expanse of a system right out of the gate but the fact is its just tio much for most to take on regardless of their ability ..... find something they do and do well and utilize it and slowly expand that role to more ... if looking for a week 1 starter and complete WR you are limited in talent pool and the college game being played by many out of spread formations or option does not help the evaluation process much IMO because so many of the little things get masked over ...

Psycho Ward 86
01-03-2014, 02:40 PM
You're right it's not good. But he didn't miss by much on several. Give him a guy who's 3-4 inches taller and don't be surprised if he hits another half dozen next year.

again, i have to wonder if you saw the last 2 games of the season if you think more height would have made some of those deep balls catchable. Ill be shocked if he hits more deep passes than he normally does unless the running game ranks at least middling (about 16th) in the league or better. I think this team misses the play action more and more every year

one side only
01-03-2014, 02:54 PM
Isn't Derek Moye tall?

Mojouw
01-03-2014, 04:11 PM
I think the key here is to get a tall, physical receiver with the ability to catch the ball with his hands, not his arms or chest. Also some actual talent. Moye is tall...but the jury remains out on the other things.

Dwinsgames
01-03-2014, 04:16 PM
this should be happening in the draft section of the forum since it is draft related and there is already conversations going on about this stuff

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/20-Draft-Central

zulater
01-03-2014, 06:05 PM
again, i have to wonder if you saw the last 2 games of the season if you think more height would have made some of those deep balls catchable. Ill be shocked if he hits more deep passes than he normally does unless the running game ranks at least middling (about 16th) in the league or better. I think this team misses the play action more and more every year

I saw the one that hit Brown on the off shoulder pad. I saw a couple others that missed by a matter of inches. I also saw a few that he missed by a country mile. More of those than usual. Maybe Ben had a little bit of a dead arm at the end? It happens.

zulater
01-04-2014, 07:12 AM
Q: Would the Steelers have a hard time passing on Mike Evans if he was available at #15 knowing that not only would they be passing on giving Ben a big target with good hands, But also the strong likelihood that the Ravens who draft right behind the Steelere would grab him, giving Flacco a big target, potentially creating a nightmare scenario competing with the Ravens for the division. As you know Flacco likes those big receivers and he's been lacking one since Bolden's departure.





A:To me, if they did, shame on them -- unless they drafted another tall receiver with good hands and tremendous athletic ability. The Steelers and Ben each know they need a tall receiver. Nothing against Antonio Brown or even Markus Wheaton, but do you know how exact Ben has to be when throwing a deep ball to a smaller receiver? Do you how precise that ball has to be to get over a corner or safety, unless the guy is 5 to 10 yards in the clear? You think Ben is accurate now. He'd be even more so w a tall guy.To me, it's priority No. 1 in the draft.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2014/01/02/Gerry-Dulac-s-Steelers-chat-transcript-1-2-13/stories/2014010202350000000#ixzz2pR1wwWgt

Psycho Ward 86
01-04-2014, 10:01 AM
Sammy Watkins, 16 receptions 227 yards 2 TD's vs. OSU :jawdrop2:

his stock is sky high. looks like mike evans will be the best receiver on the board by the time we pick. if we decide to go in that direction

SteelerFanInStl
01-04-2014, 06:09 PM
I'd be surprised to see Evans still there when we draft but if he is, we better damn well take him! I don't want to see him in a Ravens uniform.

katmandu
01-05-2014, 12:29 AM
Isn't Derek Moye tall?Tall and SKINNY!

We need a tall, big-bodied receiver that can bully his way through a crowd.

zulater
01-05-2014, 07:02 AM
Unlike the Steelers offense, which was the NFL's seventh worst during the first half of the season but the sixth best during the second half, the defense wasn't much different. The Steelers (8-8) were 21st defensively during the first half, 20th during the second.

Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/5335745-74/season-steelers-defense#ixzz2pWpkxkuK
Follow us: @triblive on Twitter | triblive on Facebook

Steeldude
01-08-2014, 08:57 AM
Ben was sacked 7 times in the last 7 games.

Why is LT more important than WR in your mind?


Look at who the Steelers played in those 7 games. This is like last year. So many were saying how the O-line was fixed. The O-line isn't fixed. I don't want an average O-line. I want a great O-line. Perhaps Beachum will improve, but I doubt he has the physical tools to be a competent LT. Also, the team lacks a RT. Adams is a puss and Gilbert is one also.

Who do the Steelers have at OLB when Worilds leaves? Who do they have at S, CB and ILB? The last 3 WRs taken in the first round did not live up to their draft status. WRs can be found in the later rounds. Every year fans want a WR in the first round. Even if the Steelers draft a WR in the first for the next five years the fans will still say draft a WR in the first.

GBMelBlount
01-08-2014, 10:15 AM
1. Look at who the Steelers played in those 7 games. This is like last year.

2. The O-line isn't fixed. I don't want an average O-line. I want a great O-line. Perhaps Beachum will improve, but I doubt he has the physical tools to be a competent LT.

3. Also, the team lacks a RT. Adams is a puss and Gilbert is one also.

4. Who do the Steelers have at OLB when Worilds leaves? Who do they have at S, CB and ILB?

5. The last 3 WRs taken in the first round did not live up to their draft status. WRs can be found in the later rounds. Every year fans want a WR in the first round. Even if the Steelers draft a WR in the first for the next five years the fans will still say draft a WR in the first.

--------
1. I disagree. We had softer defenses the last half of the year but that does not mean that allowing 1 sack per game the last half of the season is meaningless.

2. Your opinion. Also, you can't have "great" at every position and since our lineman are young and still developing does it really make economic sense to spend another top pick on the line when we have spent 4 of the last 8 first two round picks on offensive line? Personally I think we need another year to see how these young linemen shake out because we simply have too many other pressing needs as you mentioned.

3. seems that way.

4. Are you pimping a linebacker early? Safety, Cornerback? ILB? I really would not be upset if every pick was defense this year.

5. Burress and Holmes were good receivers, not busts imo....and if I'm not mistaken a low percentage of receivers make it in the NFL regardless....even fewer in the later rounds. So I don't think the probability of grabbing a high quality nfl receiver in the later rounds is very good....maybe 15% I would guess.

steelreserve
01-08-2014, 12:19 PM
IF this team can lock down the LT position for the next several years with a top tackle prospect in the first round, they would be insane not to do so. They have been looking for one since Marvel Smith left town. Imagine the upgrade to the line if a rookie high quality LT was inserted into the line-up, Beachum moves to LG, POuncey returns to health and high-quality form, Decastro continues to develop, and either Adams or Gilbert asserts themselves at RT. Then you have a young, talented starting five, and actual depth for the inevitable 436 injuries the line suffers each year. First guys off the bench could be Velasco, Foster, Adams/Gilbert, Wallace; rather than pretzel venders and Guy Whimper.

Meanwhile, this team has a track record of finding and developing mid-round WR's. Not so much with linemen. The Steelers have tried the bargain basement tackle route and it has not been a total failure, but has yet to yield a complete solution at LT. And, no, I do not believe that Beachum is the answer long-term. He will likely always have problems one on one with speed-rushers.

What we'd be insane to do is spend another high draft pick on a lineman. That's been 8 out of our last 10 draft picks from the first two rounds, and look where it's gotten us. NO MORE LINEMEN! We're hurting in way more places than that. ILB, CB and NT (the one instance where I'd be OK taking a lineman early) come to mind right away.

WR is definitely a need to build up some depth, but I see no reason to go crazy with a #1 draft pick. We don't need a superstar, and decent to above-average WRs are a dime a dozen. It should be no problem to find someone adequate in the mid to late rounds (edit: or as a FA for roughly the same as Sanders was making). Yes, Sanders is as good as gone, but no big loss.

For what it's worth, I also think "elite" left tackles are one of the most overvalued positions in the entire game. If people are debating the value of taking a NT in the high first round, I'd argue that LT is the one position where you get even LESS return on your investment. It doesn't matter if we "lock down the left side for years" if the defense still can't stop the run and everybody's going on 40 years old. If you have an acceptable LT, you'll do fine, but fans of this team are a bit freaked out about left tackles because we've had a couple really bad ones recently - same idea as the Jeff Reed situation, really. Trust me - if we had a Pro Bowl LT, that wouldn't make as much measurable difference as a good skill player elsewhere on offense or an impact player on D. A first-round LT is also setting yourself up to have no LT in 4 years, at least for a team in our cap situation - since if he turns out to be any good, he'll command $10M and we can't afford that (see also: Pouncey, Maurkice).


Tight End - Unlike in 2013, tight ends Heath Miller and Matt Spaeth should both be ready to start the 2014 season baring a training camp injury. While both are the now, the Steelers could probably stand to use a draft pick on a tight end that could potentially succeed Miller, who could receive a small extension during the offseason. <b>David Paulson</b> is currently under contract, but after beginning the 2013 season as the starter due to both Miller and Spaeth being sidelined, he played a total of 14 snaps on offense in the second half of the season as even <b>Michael Palmer</b> was used more. In other words, he is a long-shot to stick around. Miller still has some tread left on his tires, however, so addressing this position might have to wait until the middle rounds.

Translation: Let's take another what-the-hell TE in the 7th round who doesn't contribute at all and is off the roster in a couple seasons. Meanwhile, still don't do anything about the shaky punting situation by drafting one of the decent prospects that are usually available there. Let those guys become UDFAs and sign with other teams while you bring in some dingbat off the street.

MrPgh
01-09-2014, 10:07 AM
WR in round 1? Why? WRs can be found in the later rounds. I don't want another Burress, Holmes or Edwards. The team needs a LT, ILB, CB, S and probably a OLB if Worilds can't be re-signed.

So you're just assuming that every WR taken out of round 1 will have character and off-field issues because of those three?

Steeldude
01-09-2014, 01:23 PM
So you're just assuming that every WR taken out of round 1 will have character and off-field issues because of those three?

No, I am saying why gamble on a position that can be filled in the later rounds. There are more pressing needs than WR in the first, IMO. Every year fans want a WR in the first. If the Steelers take one this year the fans will ask for another next year.

I am still waiting for you to list an OC that can make an offense click with an O-line that cannot run block or pass block. You did say you want Haley fired, right?

steelreserve
01-09-2014, 01:46 PM
No, I am saying why gamble on a position that can be filled in the later rounds. There are more pressing needs than WR in the first, IMO. Every year fans want a WR in the first. If the Steelers take one this year the fans will ask for another next year.

I am still waiting for you to list an OC that can make an offense click with an O-line that cannot run block or pass block. You did say you want Haley fired, right?

Not quite. On this team, every year fans want an offensive lineman in the first round. Then we get a bunch of them and they still want one.

I'm done with taking diva receivers early. We've shown that we can get them in the first round, or the third round, or wherever.

st33lersguy
01-09-2014, 04:40 PM
Wide receiver is not worth taking in the first round. The main problems on this team is offensive tackle where Gilbert/Adams don't belong on a starting line-up and an aging defense that looked atrocious on multiple occasions. With Brown and Wheaton as the first 2 wide receivers, worst case scenario is the team would need to draft a no. 3 wideout, something not worth drafting until round 4, bring back Cotchery and you have an even less of a need. With all the holes on defense, it would be foolish to go with a WR in round 1

MrPgh
01-09-2014, 04:55 PM
Wide receiver is not worth taking in the first round. The main problems on this team is offensive tackle where Gilbert/Adams don't belong on a starting line-up and an aging defense that looked atrocious on multiple occasions. With Brown and Wheaton as the first 2 wide receivers, worst case scenario is the team would need to draft a no. 3 wideout, something not worth drafting until round 4, bring back Cotchery and you have an even less of a need. With all the holes on defense, it would be foolish to go with a WR in round 1

No it wouldn't. No matter how well the Steelers draft this year, that defense will be average at best next year. The offense on the other hand only has a few holes, namely a big play WR and a #2 TE. Wheaton didn't get much of a look. I'm not sure the Steelers can count on him to step right in as the #2 WR. If a big play WR is available in the first round, the Steelers would be utterly stupid not to take one.

Fill the few holes on offense and allow it to carry the team next year.


I am still waiting for you to list an OC that can make an offense click with an O-line that cannot run block or pass block. You did say you want Haley fired, right?

So I assume you were against the Arians firing since the same problems existed, huh? Certainly you wouldn't be so hypocritical.

It took Haley far too long to realize that this offense worked best out of the no-huddle. Once they used the no-huddle more often, a lot of those problems seemed to go away. The offense looked downright embarrassing trying to stubbornly run up the middle or throw bubble screens until the team was down several points. Did Haley eventually put his ego aside? It seems so, but it was too little too late. Essentially, when Haley called most of the plays he was a negative factor to the offense, when the offense went into the no-huddle, Haley was a non-factor. Considering that and his off-field issues, the Steelers really wouldn't be losing anything by canning him.

Psycho Ward 86
01-09-2014, 05:22 PM
Wide receiver is not worth taking in the first round. The main problems on this team is offensive tackle where Gilbert/Adams don't belong on a starting line-up and an aging defense that looked atrocious on multiple occasions. With Brown and Wheaton as the first 2 wide receivers, worst case scenario is the team would need to draft a no. 3 wideout, something not worth drafting until round 4, bring back Cotchery and you have an even less of a need. With all the holes on defense, it would be foolish to go with a WR in round 1

What? why would you completely rule out one of the most top heavy positions in this draft that also fills a need? Why are you brimming with such confidence in Wheaton, who had 6 catches for 64 yards this season? Thats like one crappy game for antonio brown. If 6 catches for 64 yards is a green light for being a worthy starting receiver in the NFL the following season, then according to you, there are hundreds of starting receivers out there. We dont know what we have out of wheaton yet. He could be a Willie Reid for all we know. Cotchery hasnt been a full time starter in 4 years. Theres a reason for that. He's old and slow, but makes tough catches in traffic and the red zone. He can hold it down but he's done excelling in the nfl.

Refresh my memory on how well any team in the NFL drafts from rounds 4-7. Not well, and with good reason. Even a strong draft will typically only yield 3-4 true contributors for a team. Ben has yet to play for an offense that is absolutely armed to the teeth. With the o-line shaping up, leveon bell looking like a promising do-it-all back, and a probowl tight end and receiver, this offense could potentially be greatly feared and could compensate for a defense that needs some help. If Mike Evans, Sammy Watkins, and/or Marqise Lee are still available at #15, they should certainly at least be considered.

This draft has an overload of talent at CB/S in rounds 2-4

steeldawg
01-09-2014, 05:37 PM
What? why would you completely rule out one of the most top heavy positions in this draft that also fills a need? Why are you brimming with such confidence in Wheaton, who had 6 catches for 64 yards this season? Thats like one crappy game for antonio brown. If 6 catches for 64 yards is a green light for being a worthy starting receiver in the NFL the following season, then according to you, there are hundreds of starting receivers out there. We dont know what we have out of wheaton yet. He could be a Willie Reid for all we know. Cotchery hasnt been a full time starter in 4 years. Theres a reason for that. He's old and slow, but makes tough catches in traffic and the red zone. He can hold it down but he's done excelling in the nfl.

Refresh my memory on how well any team in the NFL drafts from rounds 4-7. Not well, and with good reason. Even a strong draft will typically only yield 3-4 true contributors for a team. Ben has yet to play for an offense that is absolutely armed to the teeth. With the o-line shaping up, leveon bell looking like a promising do-it-all back, and a probowl tight end and receiver, this offense could potentially be greatly feared and could compensate for a defense that needs some help. If Mike Evans, Sammy Watkins, and/or Marqise Lee are still available at #15, they should certainly at least be considered.

This draft has an overload of talent at CB/S in rounds 2-4

This is exactly right! The best players coming out in this draft are wide receivers, we would be crazy not to take a top athlete at the position to fill our needs. Now if the top guys are gone then ya, I don't think anyone is suggesting we take a 3rd round wr in the first just to pick a wide out.

MrPgh
01-09-2014, 05:41 PM
I'd like to stress something I made in my last post:

The Steelers WILL NOT have a dominant defense next year, no matter how well they draft this year.

I understand that this draft (and maybe even the next one) will have to be defense-heavy. But that's a lot of young talent and a lot of transitioning. There is no "quick fix" for this defense.

The offense on the other hand, only has a few holes. If these holes are filled, then the offense can pick up the slack and potentially be one of the better offenses in the NFL. You also have to consider the fact that the rules of today's NFL are bent to favor offenses. If theses holes are not filled though, then the offense will have a much harder time trying to make up for a defense going through a lot of transition.

The days of the Steelers being able to consistently grind out low-scoring wins are over, and they may not return for a very long time.

- - - Updated - - -


This is exactly right! The best players coming out in this draft are wide receivers, we would be crazy not to take a top athlete at the position to fill our needs. Now if the top guys are gone then ya, I don't think anyone is suggesting we take a 3rd round wr in the first just to pick a wide out.

I agree with this. However, look at the teams picking before the Steelers. Many of them need a QB, and this draft has a lot of depth at QB too. That tall, big play WR that Ben wants is very realistic.

steeldawg
01-09-2014, 05:45 PM
I'd like to stress something I made in my last post:

The Steelers WILL NOT have a dominant defense next year, no matter how well they draft this year.

I understand that this draft (and maybe even the next one) will have to be defense-heavy. But that's a lot of young talent and a lot of transitioning. There is no "quick fix" for this defense.

The offense on the other hand, only has a few holes. If these holes are filled, then the offense can pick up the slack and potentially be one of the better offenses in the NFL. You also have to consider the fact that the rules of today's NFL are bent to favor offenses. If theses holes are not filled though, then the offense will have a much harder time trying to make up for a defense going through a lot of transition.

The days of the Steelers being able to consistently grind out low-scoring wins are over, and they may not return for a very long time.

- - - Updated - - -



I agree with this. However, look at the teams picking before the Steelers. Many of them need a QB, and this draft has a lot of depth at QB too. That tall, big play WR that Ben wants is very realistic.

Oh ya it is realistic we have a great shot at getting a real playmaker on the outside, keeping my fingers crossed for evans or Benjamin if comes out.

Count Steeler
01-09-2014, 07:05 PM
Steelers won't need a dominate defense. Just one that doesn't allow big plays every other game.

All they need to do is peak at the right time. If the team gels at the right time, anything is possible.

Steeldude
01-10-2014, 04:00 AM
So I assume you were against the Arians firing since the same problems existed, huh? Certainly you wouldn't be so hypocritical.

It took Haley far too long to realize that this offense worked best out of the no-huddle. Once they used the no-huddle more often, a lot of those problems seemed to go away. The offense looked downright embarrassing trying to stubbornly run up the middle or throw bubble screens until the team was down several points. Did Haley eventually put his ego aside? It seems so, but it was too little too late. Essentially, when Haley called most of the plays he was a negative factor to the offense, when the offense went into the no-huddle, Haley was a non-factor. Considering that and his off-field issues, the Steelers really wouldn't be losing anything by canning him.

Explain how you know if Haley was the one who didn't want to use the no-huddle until late. It could be Tomlin. Also, how do you know how much of a grasp BR and others had with the no-huddle? The calls in the no-huddle are not BR's only. Tomlin admitted this in a press conference.

I was very happy when Arians was let go. Arians stunted BR's growth. Calling long developing plays with a porous O-line is not a good idea. Also, when Arians was here the Steelers had a LT(Starks). The Steelers went into 2013 without a legitimate tackle on either side. They also lacked a backup C.

I could care less if Haley is fired. Who will his replacement be?

MrPgh
01-10-2014, 09:43 AM
Explain how you know if Haley was the one who didn't want to use the no-huddle until late. It could be Tomlin. Also, how do you know how much of a grasp BR and others had with the no-huddle? The calls in the no-huddle are not BR's only. Tomlin admitted this in a press conference.

When has Tomlin ever had say over his coordinators? He's not even allowed to pick them.


I was very happy when Arians was let go. Arians stunted BR's growth. Calling long developing plays with a porous O-line is not a good idea. Also, when Arians was here the Steelers had a LT(Starks). The Steelers went into 2013 without a legitimate tackle on either side. They also lacked a backup C.

Yup, stunted Ben's growth to 3 Super Bowls and seasons with winning records.


I could care less if Haley is fired. Who will his replacement be?

Someone with zero ego. With Ben running things it really doesn't matter. The original plan was to promote Kirby Wilson.

Mojouw
01-10-2014, 09:44 AM
Wait. Can someone explain to me again how not having an elite LT is ever a good idea?

I was by no means saying that another OL should be drafted in the 1st round just to draft one. But let us try and at least look at this objectively. DeCastro was a first round pick and now looks to be on his way to being an upper tier guard. I personally believe that Pouncey got so much hype for 1.5 seasons of play and backlash to his poor reaction to off-field issues that he has gone from slightly over-rated back to critically under-rated. Those are our 1st round offensive lineman. One of the best young guards in the league and arguably a Pro-Bowl center (when healthy).

The tackles who have not lived up to their billings were drafted in the second round, from the second cluster of prospects in their respective draft years. One can only (reasonably) imagine that if the Steelers were able at the 15th pick in the 1st round to select a tackle from the first tier of prospects in this draft class, they might actually be able to obtain a "franchise" LT solution for the next decade.

As for the salary cap problems, it is not an issue for members of this draft class. A capped four year ookie deal will keep the immediate #'s reasonable and as long as the team makes some (potentially painful but necessary) stern financial decisions in the next 2 years, the cap #'s will be largely cleaned up by the time a potentially elite LT would "hit the market".

From a purely logical standpoint, one can make the same argument against drafting a CB, WR, or LB in the 1st round that has been made against going after a tackle. Keep in mind here that I am only advocating taking a tackle if someone who rates as a elite prospect falls, a LT that can start from day one and be set in stone as a high-end blindside protector for years to come -- I will leave it to others to identify if someone of that description even exists in this draft.

Personally, I think this team needs impact players at OT, DB, WR, DL, LB, and RB. I do not know the exact prioritization of these needs for the draft yet, because there is still the chance of some roster movement prior to the draft. A low-cost veteran pick-up may be able to fill a few of the listed needs.

But to return to my original question, in what world does the potential to draft an elite LT ever become a bad idea? I mean you can't throw to that fancy new tall, physical, deep threat WR from flat on your back.

Just to be clear, I want a fancy new tall physical playmaking wideout too.

st33lersguy
01-10-2014, 10:06 AM
No it wouldn't. No matter how well the Steelers draft this year, that defense will be average at best next year. The offense on the other hand only has a few holes, namely a big play WR and a #2 TE. Wheaton didn't get much of a look. I'm not sure the Steelers can count on him to step right in as the #2 WR. If a big play WR is available in the first round, the Steelers would be utterly stupid not to take one.

Fill the few holes on offense and allow it to carry the team next year.


What? why would you completely rule out one of the most top heavy positions in this draft that also fills a need? Why are you brimming with such confidence in Wheaton, who had 6 catches for 64 yards this season? Thats like one crappy game for antonio brown. If 6 catches for 64 yards is a green light for being a worthy starting receiver in the NFL the following season, then according to you, there are hundreds of starting receivers out there. We dont know what we have out of wheaton yet. He could be a Willie Reid for all we know. Cotchery hasnt been a full time starter in 4 years. Theres a reason for that. He's old and slow, but makes tough catches in traffic and the red zone. He can hold it down but he's done excelling in the nfl.

Refresh my memory on how well any team in the NFL drafts from rounds 4-7. Not well, and with good reason. Even a strong draft will typically only yield 3-4 true contributors for a team. Ben has yet to play for an offense that is absolutely armed to the teeth. With the o-line shaping up, leveon bell looking like a promising do-it-all back, and a probowl tight end and receiver, this offense could potentially be greatly feared and could compensate for a defense that needs some help. If Mike Evans, Sammy Watkins, and/or Marqise Lee are still available at #15, they should certainly at least be considered.

This draft has an overload of talent at CB/S in rounds 2-4

Markus Wheaton wasn't given much of a chance to succeed. Ward, Stallworth, and Swann hardly did anything their rookie years either so it is senseless just to write him off after one year. Also all the offensive firepower in the world won't matter if last year's defense which couldn't stop Matt Cassel, Terrelle Pryor, Ryan Tannehill's talentless offense in the snow, or Matt Flynn in the snow regresses from last year which is what is going to happen if everyone who they don't let go due to the salary cap is left to age another year and if the defense isn't properly fixed in the draft

MrPgh
01-10-2014, 10:12 AM
Markus Wheaton wasn't given much of a chance to succeed. Ward, Stallworth, and Swann hardly did anything their rookie years either so it is senseless just to write him off after one year.

It's also senseless to assume Wheaton is ready to step up, especially when WR depth on this team isn't good at all. It isn't the early 70's anymore where the Steelers can just pound it and pound it all they want. They need that big play WR. It will open up so much more for the rest of the offense.


Also all the offensive firepower in the world won't matter if last year's defense which couldn't stop Matt Cassel, Terrelle Pryor, Ryan Tannehill's talentless offense in the snow, or Matt Flynn in the snow regresses from last year which is what is going to happen if everyone who they don't let go due to the salary cap is left to age another year and if the defense isn't properly fixed in the draft

Even if that's true, the Steelers aren't fixing the defense in one draft anyways. There are fewer holes to fill on offense, so fix that first and have at least one dependable unit rather than two units that are sub-par.

Psycho Ward 86
01-10-2014, 11:32 AM
Markus Wheaton wasn't given much of a chance to succeed. Ward, Stallworth, and Swann hardly did anything their rookie years either so it is senseless just to write him off after one year. Also all the offensive firepower in the world won't matter if last year's defense which couldn't stop Matt Cassel, Terrelle Pryor, Ryan Tannehill's talentless offense in the snow, or Matt Flynn in the snow regresses from last year which is what is going to happen if everyone who they don't let go due to the salary cap is left to age another year and if the defense isn't properly fixed in the draft

Santonio Holmes, Willie Reid, Limas Sweed, Troy Edwards, Will Blackwell, Charles Johnson. 6 wide receivers that the steelers have drafted in rounds 3 and up that were either epic failures or didnt live up to their draft billing. How has Wheaton proven that he isnt one of them and he is instead an Emmanuel sanders (which isnt saying much), Antwan Randle El (which isnt saying much), plaxico burress (which isnt saying much), mike wallace (which isnt saying much), or hines ward? He hasnt. Dont give him credit for being a capable starting receiver when he hasnt done anything yet. Respect is earned, not given.

Steeldude
01-10-2014, 12:01 PM
When has Tomlin ever had say over his coordinators? He's not even allowed to pick them.

Then you are saying Tomlin is 3rd in command on the sideline?



Yup, stunted Ben's growth to 3 Super Bowls and seasons with winning records.

Do you know what growth refers to? Using that logic means every player on offense grew under Arians due to a W/L, not skills/teachings. Arians' offense was to hold the ball and have BR run around for 8+ seconds waiting for someone to get open down field.



Someone with zero ego. With Ben running things it really doesn't matter. The original plan was to promote Kirby Wilson.

But BR isn't running things. Where did you read that promoting Wilson was the original plan? You seem to think BR is Manning.

...

Dwinsgames
01-10-2014, 12:16 PM
Regardless to how anyone feels about our O-Line in terms of development ( good , bad , indifferent ) make no mistake it is far from a finished product and the pieces to perfect it are not on the roster , be that as a starter or backup we need help on that unit and preferably starter quality .....

The same can be said at WR .........

the same can be said at CB ........

the same can be said at ILB .....

the same can be said about the D-Line at this point cause we do not know who will be back in 2014 .....

the same can be said at OLB since we do not know who will be here in 2014 ......

the same can be said about FS and SS as we do not know who will be back in 2014 as our cap issues could cause cuts and FA walk offs ......

with so many needs I think it is clear we need a myriad of things to go our way in terms to the cap raising , smart moves with our potential FA's , cap management , making cuts , draft evaluations being better than in the past , someone falling in our laps in the first round of the draft that is a pos of need that is ready to start week 1 or a smart calculated series opf small trade backs in the first round to acquire more selection in the middle of the draft to supplement our roster with role players and future starters ....

there is a LOT of work to be done with this team and it is going to involve not only being smart but being lucky

st33lersguy
01-10-2014, 01:22 PM
Even if that's true, the Steelers aren't fixing the defense in one draft anyways. There are fewer holes to fill on offense, so fix that first and have at least one dependable unit rather than two units that are sub-par.

It can be easily argued that the offense is already dependable. The offense scored 20 points or more in 11 games last year including their last 9 games. Over their last 14 games, they averaged 25.7 ppg, over the past 9 games they averaged 28.2 ppg all while down to their 3rd center. Plus if Pouncey is back fully healthy to pro bowl level, it should make the offense even better. I think we can afford to give Wheaton a shot and see what he can do. The defense on the other hand gave up 20 points or more in 10 games, 30 points or more in 5 games, and averaged an unsatisfactory 23.1 ppg overall, all while only playing 2 games against above average QBs (Tom Brady and Matthew Stafford). Plus everyone is going to get a year older and some guys might not return because of salary cap issues so the defense could be even worse. I would rather try and fix the defense and plug up some holes rather than draft a WR in the first and hope and pray we outscore everybody next year

MrPgh
01-10-2014, 01:24 PM
Then you are saying Tomlin is 3rd in command on the sideline?

Considering the guy isn't even allowed to pick his own coordinators, I'm really not sure.


Do you know what growth refers to? Using that logic means every player on offense grew under Arians due to a W/L, not skills/teachings. Arians' offense was to hold the ball and have BR run around for 8+ seconds waiting for someone to get open down field.

Going from 12-4 and playoffs to 8-8 and no playoffs is growth? Throwing bubble screens until you're down multiple possessions is growth? Hmm....


But BR isn't running things. Where did you read that promoting Wilson was the original plan? You seem to think BR is Manning.

Funny, because the offense looked to be at it's best when Ben was running things. You prefer the method of the offense banging it's head against a wall until they're down by multiple possessions? Gee, that sure worked in the first four weeks of the regular season.

I'm kind of glad Ben isn't Peyton Manning. Ben can play in cold weather and doesn't have a losing record in the playoffs. Wait, I know your response: "BEN ISN'T IN THE PLAYOFFS THIS YEAR AND PEYTON HAS BEEN THERE MORE OFTEN!" Well, that is true, but Ben has done more in the playoffs with fewer opportunities whereas Peyton has done less with more opportunities. Hell, even Peyton's little brother has him beat in that regard.

It's common-knowledge that had Wilson not been injured in a fire a few days before the Wild Card game in Denver he was supposed to be promoted to OC after Arians was fired.

MrPgh
01-10-2014, 01:30 PM
What do you mean the offense isn't dependable? The offense scored 20 points or more in 11 games last year including their last 9 games. Over their last 14 games, they averaged 25.7 ppg, over the past 9 games they averaged 28.2 ppg all while down to their 3rd center. Plus if Pouncey is back fully healthy to pro bowl level, it should make the offense even better. I think we can afford to give Wheaton a shot and see what he can do. The defense on the other hand gave up 20 points or more in 10 games, 30 points or more in 5 games, and averaged an unsatisfactory 23.1 ppg overall, all while only playing 2 games against above average QBs (Tom Brady and Matthew Stafford). Plus everyone is going to get a year older and some guys might not return because of salary cap issues so the defense could be even worse. I would rather try and fix the defense and plug up some holes rather than draft a WR in the first and hope and pray we outscore everybody next year

You're missing the point: the defense isn't getting fixed in one draft. No matter how well the Steelers draft this year, that defense will be average at best next year.

In regards to Wheaton, why are you throwing blind faith in a WR that hardly saw the field? Look at the Steelers depth at WR, it sucks. What happens next year if Wheaton turns out to not be very good? Have Brown and Cotchery as the only two WRs? Also, who is dependable at TE behind Miller?

You fix the offense first because 1.) it only has a few holes, and 2.) the rules of today's NFL are biased towards offenses. You don't limit your offense to try and quick fix a defense that isn't going to be dominant no matter what the Steelers do in the off season.

Psycho Ward 86
01-10-2014, 02:50 PM
Regardless to how anyone feels about our O-Line in terms of development ( good , bad , indifferent ) make no mistake it is far from a finished product and the pieces to perfect it are not on the roster , be that as a starter or backup we need help on that unit and preferably starter quality .....



Aint that the truth! Im surprised that seemingly not a single person has pointed out that perhaps the lack of sacks allowed in the 2nd half of the season is directly correlated with the increased usage of the no-huddle. People need to realize that the no-huddle can only mask so many problems. It CANNOT be run consistently all game, and probably not even half. This is NOT the K-gun offense, and there never will be another one, because the K-gun only worked because that was the first time the no-huddle became a big deal. This offense needs to prove that it can still score without the no huddle, protect ben, and run block in a conventional offense.

st33lersguy
01-10-2014, 03:08 PM
You're missing the point: the defense isn't getting fixed in one draft. No matter how well the Steelers draft this year, that defense will be average at best next year.

In regards to Wheaton, why are you throwing blind faith in a WR that hardly saw the field? Look at the Steelers depth at WR, it sucks. What happens next year if Wheaton turns out to not be very good? Have Brown and Cotchery as the only two WRs? Also, who is dependable at TE behind Miller?

You fix the offense first because 1.) it only has a few holes, and 2.) the rules of today's NFL are biased towards offenses. You don't limit your offense to try and quick fix a defense that isn't going to be dominant no matter what the Steelers do in the off season.

I am not talking about fixing the defense completely, I am talking about IMPROVING the defense so they don't give up 30+ points to the likes of Ryan Tannehill or Matt Cassel. All the offense in the world won't matter if your defense has trouble stopping teams

MrPgh
01-10-2014, 04:08 PM
I am not talking about fixing the defense completely, I am talking about IMPROVING the defense so they don't give up 30+ points to the likes of Ryan Tannehill or Matt Cassel. All the offense in the world won't matter if your defense has trouble stopping teams

So are you implying the offense doesn't need anymore improving from where it is now? If so, you're very wrong. The offense may be a better unit than the defense, but that doesn't mean it's a complete unit. It's just closer to be a complete unit than the defense is, therefore the Steelers should fill the few holes the offense has. Better to have one unit that is dominant and another that is average rather than two units that are average.

I'm not saying don't draft defense at all, I'm saying don't neglect the offense or assume it's good to go for 2014 as it is.

Steeldude
01-11-2014, 04:09 AM
Considering the guy isn't even allowed to pick his own coordinators, I'm really not sure.



Going from 12-4 and playoffs to 8-8 and no playoffs is growth? Throwing bubble screens until you're down multiple possessions is growth? Hmm....



Funny, because the offense looked to be at it's best when Ben was running things. You prefer the method of the offense banging it's head against a wall until they're down by multiple possessions? Gee, that sure worked in the first four weeks of the regular season.

I'm kind of glad Ben isn't Peyton Manning. Ben can play in cold weather and doesn't have a losing record in the playoffs. Wait, I know your response: "BEN ISN'T IN THE PLAYOFFS THIS YEAR AND PEYTON HAS BEEN THERE MORE OFTEN!" Well, that is true, but Ben has done more in the playoffs with fewer opportunities whereas Peyton has done less with more opportunities. Hell, even Peyton's little brother has him beat in that regard.

It's common-knowledge that had Wilson not been injured in a fire a few days before the Wild Card game in Denver he was supposed to be promoted to OC after Arians was fired.

How many years has Haley had compared to Arians?

If it's common knowledge could you post some links supporting your statement? I heard he was a candidate, not the definite successor.

Did the Colts have the Steelers defense and running game during Manning's tenure? I find Marino to be the best passer(give or take) in the NFL, but he was not given a supporting cast. He had his pro bowl WRs, but no running game or defense.

Again, you are confusing team W/L record with personal growth. Why?

Funny, I just informed you that Tomlin stated in a press conference that BR is not the only one calling the plays. So please explain how he is running the offense. Or dodge another question...lol.

You prefer the method of having 5 WRs on the field. Why? How well has the worked in the NFL? As one poster recalled, do you remember the K-gun?

MrPgh
01-12-2014, 03:40 PM
How many years has Haley had compared to Arians?

Playoff years.


If it's common knowledge could you post some links supporting your statement? I heard he was a candidate, not the definite successor.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/19/kirby-wilson-was-in-line-to-be-next-offensive-coordinator/


Did the Colts have the Steelers defense and running game during Manning's tenure? I find Marino to be the best passer(give or take) in the NFL, but he was not given a supporting cast. He had his pro bowl WRs, but no running game or defense.

They had pretty good teams. No excuse for someone like Peyton Manning to put up all those big numbers in the regular season then get rattled easily come playoff time.


Again, you are confusing team W/L record with personal growth. Why?

Funny, you're implying W/L isn't as important in a league where winning means everything and for a team that has gone backwards since Haley was hired.


Funny, I just informed you that Tomlin stated in a press conference that BR is not the only one calling the plays. So please explain how he is running the offense. Or dodge another question...lol.

Yeah, because Tomlin always tells the truth. :lol:

You sound like you really don't like the idea that the offense became better when it went to the no-huddle. Is it because it went against what Art II originally wanted when he hired Haley? Is it because you hate the idea that Ben might look like he's bigger than the rest of the team when he runs it?



You prefer the method of having 5 WRs on the field. Why? How well has the worked in the NFL? As one poster recalled, do you remember the K-gun?

So because I stated the Steelers depth at WR sucks, that means I want 5 WRs on the field all the time? :lol:

I guess you missed my post in reply to st33lersguy:


So are you implying the offense doesn't need anymore improving from where it is now? If so, you're very wrong. The offense may be a better unit than the defense, but that doesn't mean it's a complete unit. It's just closer to be a complete unit than the defense is, therefore the Steelers should fill the few holes the offense has. Better to have one unit that is dominant and another that is average rather than two units that are average.

I'm not saying don't draft defense at all, I'm saying don't neglect the offense or assume it's good to go for 2014 as it is.

Dwinsgames
01-12-2014, 03:43 PM
ok who left the septic tank lid off ,the shit is getting everywhere again

MrPgh
01-12-2014, 03:55 PM
ok who left the septic tank lid off ,the shit is getting everywhere again

You trying to get banned or something?

Dwinsgames
01-12-2014, 04:34 PM
You trying to get banned or something?

nope just calling it as I see it , nothing more nothing less

how many times does somebody have to show you something with direct quotes from the man who makes the statement before you grasp what they are saying ?

tell me just how many times ...

its gets older than a 90 year old hooker telling you things over and over again for you to continually misrepresent them in your best Mark Madden impersonation ......

LLT
01-12-2014, 04:37 PM
You trying to get banned or something?

We will make those decisions....but thanks for the input.

As far as I can tell...Dwin is attacking the content...not the poster. That being said...lets ALL be civil in the course of the debate. Just back up your argument with personal opinion and facts...and respect the others right to do the same.

LLT
01-12-2014, 05:50 PM
Alright....cool the rhetoric. Ive already warned you guys once.

LLT
01-12-2014, 05:55 PM
Last warning.... the next person who gets personal is getting a few days off. I cant be any more clear about this. Id rather lock the thread then have to read the posts of two people trying to prove their point with insults!!!

I dont care who started it or who is right or wrong...no more personal insults. Fair enough?

LLT
01-12-2014, 06:04 PM
I removed all posts with personal insults...new start.

Steeldude
01-13-2014, 12:26 PM
How many years has Haley had compared to Arians?

So basically Bouchette was claiming him to be the leading candidate. Sounds more like a reporter's opinion than fact.

Manning still lacked a running game and defense. How well have teams played in the playoffs without a good defense? More often than not the team with the better defense went further. Could you imagine the Steelers in the playoffs or SB with a poor defense?


"you're implying W/L isn't as important in a league where winning means everything"

Where did I imply that at all? I clearly stated you are saying a W/L record is personal growth. How does a W/L determine a player's skill growth over the years?


"Yeah, because Tomlin always tells the truth"

You dodged the question as I stated you would...lol.


"You sound like you really don't like the idea that the offense became better when it went to the no-huddle."

Actually I have made no implication to that at all. I was asking for no-huddle seasons ago. Also, running no-huddle won't work all game long for 16 games. Eventually the O-line has to be fixed.


"Is it because you hate the idea that Ben might look like he's bigger than the rest of the team when he runs it"

Why would anyone hate the team performing better regardless of who is responsible? Isn't a QB supposed to be the biggest part of the offense? Or at least its leader?

So neglect the defense which needs more help? Before the offense was in shambles so the Steelers finally started addressing it. They didn't say "The defense has less holes so let us fix that first". The Steelers are going into 2014 with holes in the defense. They need a safety, a CB, 3-down ILB and probably an OLB when Worilds leaves.

On offense the Steelers most glaring need, IMO, is LT. Beachum is a stop-gap player, IMO. I am not so confident in the RT spot either. Adams and Gilbert of both pussies. The problem is a bluechip LT won't be available at #15. Trading down may be the Steelers best option.

Dwinsgames
01-13-2014, 02:11 PM
How many years has Haley had compared to Arians?

So basically Bouchette was claiming him to be the leading candidate. Sounds more like a reporter's opinion than fact.

Manning still lacked a running game and defense. How well have teams played in the playoffs without a good defense? More often than not the team with the better defense went further. Could you imagine the Steelers in the playoffs or SB with a poor defense?



Where did I imply that at all? I clearly stated you are saying a W/L record is personal growth. How does a W/L determine a player's skill growth over the years?



You dodged the question as I stated you would...lol.



Actually I have made no implication to that at all. I was asking for no-huddle seasons ago. Also, running no-huddle won't work all game long for 16 games. Eventually the O-line has to be fixed.



Why would anyone hate the team performing better regardless of who is responsible? Isn't a QB supposed to be the biggest part of the offense? Or at least its leader?

So neglect the defense which needs more help? Before the offense was in shambles so the Steelers finally started addressing it. They didn't say "The defense has less holes so let us fix that first". The Steelers are going into 2014 with holes in the defense. They need a safety, a CB, 3-down ILB and probably an OLB when Worilds leaves.

On offense the Steelers most glaring need, IMO, is LT. Beachum is a stop-gap player, IMO. I am not so confident in the RT spot either. Adams and Gilbert of both pussies. The problem is a bluechip LT won't be available at #15. Trading down may be the Steelers best option.

good post , backed up by sound logic and factual evidence

MrPgh
01-21-2014, 11:18 PM
How many years has Haley had compared to Arians?

How long did it take the Steelers to get back into the playoffs with Arians as OC? How many years did they miss the playoffs with Arians as OC?


So basically Bouchette was claiming him to be the leading candidate. Sounds more like a reporter's opinion than fact.

This is common knowledge that Wilson was supposed to be next up. If you don't want to accept that then it's your problem, and frankly I don't care enough about to argue over it.


Manning still lacked a running game and defense. How well have teams played in the playoffs without a good defense? More often than not the team with the better defense went further. Could you imagine the Steelers in the playoffs or SB with a poor defense?

Are you implying Manning was the team of a QB full of scrubs? Maybe statistically Manning didn't have a defense or running game as good as the Steelers, but if you're implying he was surrounded by crap your greatly exaggerating and frankly making excuses for him.




Where did I imply that at all? I clearly stated you are saying a W/L record is personal growth. How does a W/L determine a player's skill growth over the years?

Who has grown and how? It sounds like your using "personal growth" as an excuse to justify terrible decisions the team has made the last two off seasons.




You dodged the question as I stated you would...lol.

Nah, I just gave an answer you didn't like.




Actually I have made no implication to that at all. I was asking for no-huddle seasons ago. Also, running no-huddle won't work all game long for 16 games. Eventually the O-line has to be fixed.

It doesn't work for 16 games? No one can say for sure if that's true, but everything else they were doing sure as hell wasn't working. Perhaps turning to it earlier gets them a victory or two in the first four weeks.




Why would anyone hate the team performing better regardless of who is responsible? Isn't a QB supposed to be the biggest part of the offense? Or at least its leader?

Sure he is, but from your posts you really don't seem to like the idea of Ben running things when this offense has performed better when he has.


So neglect the defense which needs more help? Before the offense was in shambles so the Steelers finally started addressing it. They didn't say "The defense has less holes so let us fix that first". The Steelers are going into 2014 with holes in the defense. They need a safety, a CB, 3-down ILB and probably an OLB when Worilds leaves.

When did I say neglect the defense? I just said fill the few holes the offense has and let it lead the team next year. I've stated on this forum numerous times the next two drafts should be defense heavy, but that the offense still has some needs and shouldn't be neglected. Certain posters like you tend to knee-jerk and take it as "OMG HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE DEFENSE AND JUST WANTS FLASHY RECEIVERS!"

We all know rookies either struggle or spend the first year on the bench in a LeBeau defense. Why not have a great offense to help a struggling defense rather then having two average units? The Steelers could also try signing a decent FA or two on defense.


On offense the Steelers most glaring need, IMO, is LT. Beachum is a stop-gap player, IMO. I am not so confident in the RT spot either. Adams and Gilbert of both pussies. The problem is a bluechip LT won't be available at #15. Trading down may be the Steelers best option.

Wouldn't hold my breath for the Steelers drafting another OL in the first.

TMC
01-22-2014, 12:00 AM
Late to this party, but here is my take.

I do not rule out the potential to draft an offensive lineman in the first round, but it almost has to be a left tackle. The reason I state that is two fold. First, we just inked Foster, he has 2 seasons left. I think they try to retain Velasco and there was not a huge drop when Pouncey exited. DeCastro appears to be a stud in the making. They have some bodies behind them. Second, there are no centers or guards that rate that high. I like Beachum a ton. The issue with Beachum, he is shorter with shorter arms. Once NFL teams get film on those guys, they find ways to get them on tilt. Smaller framed LTs also struggle with injury (or so it seems) more than bigger guys. It is rare they work out for the long-term. At RT, they have Gilbert who is entering his contract season. You have to ask if you want to hand him a contract, how much, and how long or do you go with Adams, who has struggled worse than Gilbert (and he will be a free agent in 2 seasons). Or, do you draft a LT, extend Beachum, and use those two players as your OTs moving forward. If the right guy falls, that is what I do. At this point, I have seen 3 guys that fit the bill for me at #15 and they are Jake Matthews, Greg Robinson, and Cyrus Kouandjio. Outside of those 3, I pass on a LT in the first.

Here is the thing about WR. A first round WR busts about 35% of the time. That number climbs to @50% in the 2nd, 60% in the 3rd, and settles in the 70-80% in the 4th-6th. Of those taken in the first, another 32% are just average guys with only 33% making the Pro Bowl. That is not enough to make me completely shy away from WR, but you can find a Pro Bowl guy at a 10% clip in the other rounds. It is almost a feast or famine position. The thing is, big WRs are almost always feast or famine. Either they develop and start or they fall off rosters. The number of #3 and #4 WRs over 6'2" is not big.

As for the top WRs in this draft, they all have very concerning traits to their game.
-Sammy Watkins had 57.4% of his receptions come on screen passes this season. Just over 70% of his receptions were within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage. He is not a physical guy. He will go up and make some catches, but scheme got him wide open a lot. In instances where he had corners press him, he wilted. I think if he translates his game to the NFL, it will take some time as he develops as a route runner and learns how to beat guys off the line. Clemson moved him around a lot, kept him off the line, and used him because he has excellent RAC ability. I also do not know if he will come out with that plus speed (sub 4.4). I have my doubts.
-Mike Evans is far from a polished route runner. In fact, a majority of his routes are go routes or the appearance of a go route with a stop. He rarely ventures inside the numbers on the field and is sloppy in his routes. He rounds them to keep from scrubbing off speed. When he runs the In/Out route, he also fades away from the QB after the break and that coupled with his rounding of the route, makes it easier for elite level DBs to jump his routes. I think his quickness out of his breaks will be a big question. Very limited receiver that does a few things very well, but with more physical DBs in the NFL that can match him, he may not make that step forward. He is an edge guy only and may need a season or two before he can improve enough to be a factor.

-Marqise Lee may be the best route runner of all the guys named in the first round. He did not see a significant amount of deep passes and struggled to make catches over 20 yards. He also has a high number of drops and seemed out of his element this season. He struggled. He looked much less explosive and less dominant this season than he did last season. He ran a lot of routes that looked to get him yards after catch, but had his route tree trimmed from previous seasons. The biggest issue is his hands and ability to make the deep catch.

-Kelvin Benjamin is pretty similar to Evans. He runs a wider variety of routes and may be better prepared in that area, but he is still very raw. He drops too many passes. He is not an exceptionally fluid guy even though he appears more comfortable on the route tree than Evans. He is not as dominant as Evans is on the edge. Big boom or bust type guy. If he develops, you have something. If he falters, you do not. Big question is motivation as when the ball does not come his way, he is not a very eager guy.

At this point, I have yet to see a first round WR that I would want take at #15. Not sold on Nix either. Mosley is an interesting guy at that point to play the ILB spot. Definitely some pass rushers if they fall. I think this draft has good meat from #20 to #60, maybe even to #100, but not many blue-chip guys at the top.