Can the Steelers "tag" Worilds? If so how much would it cost?

[zulater]

Do the Steelers have a franchise tag or transition tag available to them that they could use to keep Jason Worilds? If so what would be the one year cost of doing this?

I know everyone's scared of overpaying a player for one year's worth of production. But if you can tag him that's only a one year contract, so he'd have to sing for his supper again in order to have a chance of getting that big long term deal he most likely wants.

The Steelers can't afford to lose him in my opinion. And if it means bucking up for a big one year contract find a way.

[Chidi29]

Yes, they can tag him. Not sure what this offseason's number will be but it was 10.6 last year.

So not realistic for the Steelers given the cap situation.

[zulater]

Yes, they can tag him. Not sure what this offseason's number will be but it was 10.6 last year.

So not realistic for the Steelers given the cap situation.


Why not? You're going to restructure Ben. You're going to ask Troy to take a pay cut or you will likely cut him too. Clark and Keisel are gone and off the books. Sanders and his 2.8 million are gone.

Where's there's a will there's a way. You can't come into spring OTA's with Jarvis Jones being your best OLB.

Woodley is gone no matter what they do with Jason, or so I believe. I think the team is fed up with him.

[Chidi29]

Why not? You're going to restructure Ben. You're going to ask Troy to take a pay cut or you will likely cut him too. Clark and Keisel are gone and off the books. Sanders and his 2.8 million are gone.

Where's there's a will there's a way. You can't come into spring OTA's with Jarvis Jones being your best OLB.

Woodley is gone no matter what they do with Jason, or I believe. I think the team is fed up with him.

Yeah, you're going to restructure just so you can function as a team. Those are all band-aids and you can't live on restructures forever. Those moves are the reason why we are always so cap-strapped. And why we can't spend nearly 10 million on one guy for one season and then have to try and re-sign him to a long-term deal next year, spending big money again.

I don't think the team is fed up with him. I think he's been hit by a strung of nasty, nagging injuries. He's productive when healthy. Moreso than Worilds.

[zulater]

Yeah, you're going to restructure just so you can function as a team. Those are all band-aids and you can't live on restructures forever. Those moves are the reason why we are always so cap-strapped. And why we can't spend nearly 10 million on one guy for one season and then have to try and re-sign him to a long-term deal next year, spending big money again.

I don't think the team is fed up with him. I think he's been hit by a strung of nasty, nagging injuries. He's productive when healthy. Moreso than Worilds.

That last line must be a joke? But your forget your smiley to let us know.

Seriously I'll wager you a $50 board contribution that Woodley doesn't play another down as a Steeler.

[Chidi29]

That last line must be a joke? But your forget your smiley to let us know.

Seriously I'll wager you a $50 board contribution that Woodley doesn't play another down as a Steeler.

Woodley's first six games? Five sacks.

Prorate that for an entire season and he registers 13. Just the math.

[zulater]

Despite not starting the first 6 games of this season Worilds has 63 tackles ( assists and tackles combined) with a game to go. Woodley's career high for tackles is 62 in 2009. In the last 8 games Jason has been more productive and been more of a force than Woodley at any time in his career.

Woodley's either too old or not committed enough to cause to be a productive player anymore. But even at his best, he was never as good as Worilds has been these last two months.

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Woodley's first six games? Five sacks.

Prorate that for an entire season and he registers 13. Just the math.

So what happened the next four games? He was worthless before his most recent spate of injuries.

[Chidi29]

Although before you yell at me more, let me say this...

There could be a way to pull the deal off.

Looked up Paul Kruger's contract since it serves as a good benchmark. Only making 715K this year as his base before it jumps to 7 million next year. But his cap hit for the first year is just 3.1 million.

So not taking up much cap space. I would even wager to do that deal, keep Woodley, and if need be, cut Wood next year when it saves you 4 million to do so.

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Despite not starting the first 6 games of this season Worilds has 63 tackles ( assists and tackles combined) with a game to go. Woodley's career high for tackles is 62 in 2009. In the last 8 games Jason has been more productive and been more of a force than Woodley at any time in his career.

Woodley's either too old or not committed enough to cause to be a productive player anymore. But even at his best, he was never as good as Worilds has been these last two months.

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So what happened the next four games? He was worthless before his most recent spate of injuries.

So we'll give Worilds a pass (1 sack in his first seven) for being "worthless" for a long stretch but not Woodley? Seems hypocritical.

[zulater]

The last 5 games Woodley started this year 5 tackles zero sacks. What's that prorate to over 16 games Chidi?

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Although before you yell at me more, let me say this...

There could be a way to pull the deal off.

Looked up Paul Kruger's contract since it serves as a good benchmark. Only making 715K this year as his base before it jumps to 7 million next year. But his cap hit for the first year is just 3.1 million.

So not taking up much cap space. I would even wager to do that deal, keep Woodley, and if need be, cut Wood next year when it saves you 4 million to do so.

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So we'll give Worilds a pass (1 sack in his first seven) for being "worthless" for a long stretch but not Woodley? Seems hypocritical.

Jason didn't bloom until he was put in his more natural position of LOLB. Since being inserted there he's played at a higher level than Woodley has since at least 2010. Or possibly ever.

[Chidi29]

The last 5 games Woodley started this year 5 tackles zero sacks. What's that prorate to over 16 games Chidi?

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Jason didn't bloom until he was put in his more natural position of LOLB. Since being inserted there he's played at a higher level than Woodley has since at least 2010. Or possibly ever.

Which in essence, is just 3.5 games. Played two snaps vs Cincy and a half against Buffalo. Not really fair to give Woodley five games. And much less of a drought than Worilds, no?

I'm not saying Woodley had a Cinderella season. He didn't. Just that he isn't crap either and people forget he was our lone source of pass rushing power for the first quarter of the season.

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In his last six games, mainly at LOLB, he has five sacks. The same as Woodley did...

[zulater]

Which in essence, is just 3.5 games. Played two snaps vs Cincy and a half against Buffalo. Not really fair to give Woodley five games. And much less of a drought than Worilds, no?

I'm not saying Woodley had a Cinderella season. He didn't. Just that he isn't crap either and people forget he was our lone source of pass rushing power for the first quarter of the season.

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In his last six games, mainly at LOLB, he has five sacks. The same as Woodley did...

In the 10 games Worilds has started at LOLB he has 51 tackles, 7 sacks and 2 forced fumbles. Jason didn't have a sack in the Cleveland game but still dominated to such a point that he was named Steelers player of the game by multiple media outlets.

Keeping Woodley would be a huge mistake. Letting Worilds go would be an even bigger one.

So are we on for the board bet? Woodley never plays another down for the Steelers.

[Dwinsgames]

. Clark and Keisel are gone and off the books. Sanders and his 2.8 million are gone.

.

forget who is gone , because they are not on the books ( that fact they are off the books is not a blessing ) considering we are over the cap without them as it stands and someone will need to replace then ( additional cost ) ....

[Chidi29]

Zu trying to make a bet with me...

It's good to be back.

[X-Terminator]

I'm with Zu on this one. Woodley has played his last down as a Steeler. I've always thought he was overrated and overpaid, but if you just ignore that, the fact that he is showing up to camp fat and out of shape and can't stay on the field is reason enough to get rid of him. It does not make good business sense to tie up millions of dollars and waste a roster spot for that. Better to cut him June 1 and eat the dead money.

[zulater]

forget who is gone , because they are not on the books ( that fact they are off the books is not a blessing ) considering we are over the cap without them as it stands and someone will need to replace then ( additional cost ) ....


Losing 2nd contract players the quality of Keenan Lewis and Jason Worilds is akin to the late 90's losses of Leon Searcy and Chad Brown. Those sort of short sighted talent bleeds of emerging young players is what kills a franchise more than a strained cap.

[The Bark]

The team has a lot of needs, but I wouldn't be surprised if their first pick were another LB if they believed that were the highest quality pick at whatever slot they end up with. Spence remains a big question mark. I think Woodley is gone. They cut Stevenson Sylvester only to bring him back so they seem a bit iffy with him. Carter hasn't really done much. Foote is on the tail end of his career. The rest, save Williams, really haven't contributed and were undrafted. Safety is a huge need because of age, but there's only really one bonafide 1st rounder. Should be an interesting pick either way.

On a side note, Woodley delivered in the playoffs, except perhaps 2011. He was a monster in 2008 and 2010, but those are grower more distant in the rearview mirror.

[Dwinsgames]

Losing 2nd contract players the quality of Keenan Lewis and Jason Worilds is akin to the late 90's losses of Leon Searcy and Chad Brown. Those sort of short sighted talent bleeds of emerging young players is what kills a franchise more than a strained cap.

sorry but I fail to grasp what that has to do with the fact those players are not on the roster and do not count against our cap number in 2014 yet we are till over the cap as it stands ...

simply sayin this guy and that guy are gone so that will save us money is 100% irrelivent because they are not counted vs the 2014 cap to begin with yet we are over that figure as of today based on todays cap number ....

will the cap number increase , Probably , but to what is anyones guess and it is not 100% certainty it will increase at all or by much ... its all conjecture until it happens

[zulater]

Zu trying to make a bet with me...

It's good to be back.

You should take me up on my offer. You're due to win one eventually. :heh: :wink02:

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sorry but I fail to grasp what that has to do with the fact those players are not on the roster and do not count against our cap number in 2014 yet we are till over the cap as it stands ...

simply sayin this guy and that guy are gone so that will save us money is 100% irrelivent because they are not counted vs the 2014 cap to begin with yet we are over that figure as of today based on todays cap number ....

will the cap number increase , Probably , but to what is anyones guess and it is not 100% certainty it will increase at all or by much ... its all conjecture until it happens

You can bet they're going to restructure Ben and gain some space there. Also if you tag Jason you can continue to work on a longer term deal to alleviate immediate cap hit.

Bottom line you got to do something. You can't go into the Latrobe next summer with your veteran outside linebackers being injury waiting to happen Lammar, and totally unproven and highly suspect Jarvis Jones. Figure on giving up 30 points a game if that's your strategy.

[Dwinsgames]

You can bet they're going to restructure Ben and gain some space there.

ahh the devil in the cookie jar AGAIN ....

that is the sort of thing that got us into this mess to begin with , continuing to practice those same practices is not going to help us , but instead will only hurt us moving forward .......

Einsteins definition of insanity ...doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

[zulater]

ahh the devil in the cookie jar AGAIN ....

that is the sort of thing that got us into this mess to begin with , continuing to practice those same practices is not going to help us , but instead will only hurt us moving forward .......

Einsteins definition of insanity ...doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

It hasn't exactly made us the worst team in the world has it? This season's bad start had more to do with Pouncey's injury, and Heath Miller's and Leveon Bell's early absence from the lineup, and the inept play of Adams at left tackle, than a strained cap.

Again lose Worilds and figure you're defense is going to suck ball next year and you throw another prime year of Ben's career away. Not a good plan.

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The cap isn't what killed this team's early season. And it wont kill next year or the year after either. Yeah eventually there comes a day you pay for everything. But let it be the day after Big Ben retires. As long as he's playing at a high level push back the costs and keep trying to win it now!

[Dwinsgames]

The cap isn't what killed this team's early season. And it wont kill next year or the year after either. Yeah eventually there comes a day you pay for everything. But let it be the day after Big Ben retires. As long as he's playing at a high level push back the costs and keep trying to win it now!

really ?

I think it had a TON to do with it ....

a team not financially burdened do not go into the season with BOTH starting tackles never having a full season under their belts during their careers .... no legit depth and no backup center ...

those are cap created issues and front office oversights

[Chidi29]

It's still a risk to try and push those cap issues off. You're really banking on the salary cap spiking when the TV deals kick in for 2015 but you never really know for sure.

The entire point I'm making here is that it is a bit short-sighted to think Woodley played awful. Again, by far our most productive pass rusher the first half of the year. Easily forgotten because it was marred by a terrible start.

I like Worilds. I seriously do. Great bend around the edge and has good hustle. But two cavaets.

1. I still don't buy into paying big money for a position where we've thrown guys in and they've had success. Overall, all Bruce Davis aside, we evaluate OLBs well. I was against Woodley's contract from the day he signed it for that reason (proof of that because I said that in an interview with The Trib representing this site the day the news broke).

2. As much as I like Worilds, you can't deny you're paying 40+ million for a guy what, six or seven weeks of strong production? It's a risk basing it off that small sample size. Not like Worilds has been productive for two seasons now.

[zulater]

really ?

I think it had a TON to do with it ....

a team not financially burdened do not go into the season with BOTH starting tackles never having a full season under their belts during their careers .... no legit depth and no backup center ...

those are cap created issues and front office oversights

No I'd say it was more to do with poor drafting than cap mismanagement. The Steelers were determined to make Adams their starting left tackle because of his draft status. The loss of Pouncey was compounded by letting Legurskey go. Did Legurskey make more money in Buffalo than Whimper got here, or Velsaco after was signed? Just organizational short sightedness and roster mismanagement.

Not drafting Tyler Eifert when you knew Miller was going to miss time and is getting old, poor drafting.

Regardless of the past. The offense seems to have turned itself around and looks as if there's something sustainable there.

But if you don't have a defense then you just waste another prime year of Ben's career. Again that's not a good option.

Hey let's not try to contend for the next two years. Let's worry about the 2018 post Roethlisberger Steelers. Yeah man , good plan.

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It's still a risk to try and push those cap issues off. You're really banking on the salary cap spiking when the TV deals kick in for 2015 but you never really know for sure.

The entire point I'm making here is that it is a bit short-sighted to think Woodley played awful. Again, by far our most productive pass rusher the first half of the year. Easily forgotten because it was marred by a terrible start.

I like Worilds. I seriously do. Great bend around the edge and has good hustle. But two cavaets.

1. I still don't buy into paying big money for a position where we've thrown guys in and they've had success. Overall, all Bruce Davis aside, we evaluate OLBs well. I was against Woodley's contract from the day he signed it for that reason (proof of that because I said that in an interview with The Trib representing this site the day the news broke).

2. As much as I like Worilds, you can't deny you're paying 40+ million for a guy what, six or seven weeks of strong production? It's a risk basing it off that small sample size. Not like Worilds has been productive for two seasons now.

It was the same risk assessment that could be applied to Keenan Lewis last offseason. In fact I would say Jason has showed more.

[X-Terminator]

ahh the devil in the cookie jar AGAIN ....

that is the sort of thing that got us into this mess to begin with , continuing to practice those same practices is not going to help us , but instead will only hurt us moving forward .......

Einsteins definition of insanity ...doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

They would be better off giving Ben a new contract and saving money that way. Another restructure of his current deal can't happen.

[Chidi29]

No I'd say it was more to do with poor drafting than cap mismanagement. The Steelers were determined to make Adams their starting left tackle because of his draft status. The loss of Pouncey was compounded by letting Legurskey go. Did Legurskey make more money in Buffalo than Whimper got here, or Velsaco after was signed? Just organizational short sightedness and roster mismanagement.

Not drafting Tyler Eifert when you knew Miller was going to miss time and is getting old, poor drafting.

Regardless of the past. The offense seems to have turned itself around and looks as if there's something sustainable there.

But if you don't have a defense then you just waste another prime year of Ben's career. Again that's not a good option.

Hey let's not try to contend for the next two years. Let's worry about the 2018 post Roethlisberger Steelers. Yeah man , good plan.

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It was the same risk assessment that could be applied to Keenan Lewis last offseason. In fact I would say Jason has showed more.

And you saw they let Keenan walk...and I'm pretty sure he cost less than Worilds will. .

[zulater]

And you saw they let Keenan walk...and I'm pretty sure he cost less than Worilds will. .

And you don't think they're kicking themselves now about it?

[Chidi29]

And you don't think they're kicking themselves now about it?

I don't think that's how they view their decisions. They focus on the present. Just because they didn't sign Player A, doesn't mean they will/won't sign Player B. All unique and independent situations.

[Psycho Ward 86]

2. As much as I like Worilds, you can't deny you're paying 40+ million for a guy what, six or seven weeks of strong production? It's a risk basing it off that small sample size. Not like Worilds has been productive for two seasons now.

sounds like a keenan lewis evaluation by 90% of the people on this board last year. that turned out just awesome.

[zulater]

I don't think that's how they view their decisions. They focus on the present. Just because they didn't sign Player A, doesn't mean they will/won't sign Player B. All unique and independent situations.


It's being reported they're dissatisfied with Woodley on a number of levels and the decision has all but been made that he's not in the Steelers future plans. If this is true then doesn't that put added emphasis on keeping Worilds? Also that they kept a diminishing Ike Taylor rather than try to retain an emerging 2nd contract player in Keenan Lewis, you're saying that doesn't apply here? No similarities? Once bitten twice shy.


Let me put it this way, if the decision to jettison Woodley has been made wouldn't it make sense that there's some strategy in place to at least attempt to keep Worilds? And wouldn't tagging him in fact probably be the most likely way to achieve that?

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sounds like a keenan lewis evaluation by 90% of the people on this board last year. that turned out just awesome.

Honestly I think a good portion of this board who expressed an opinion at the time were very bothered by the Steelers retaining Ike over Keenan. I know I was at least. :lol:

[steelreserve]

Yes, we could use the tag on him. No, it wouldn't be smart, a good value, or something that we could afford.

Above all else, we need to STOP GIVING $10M CONTRACTS TO ANY MORE LINEBACKERS. One is the most you can have at a time, and we've got that slot filled. If we can get Worilds for about half of that, then great; if not, then unfortunately I don't see much choice for us but to bid him adios. Nice-to-keep is not really something that is supported under our current salary cap.

As for Woodley, I don't see him having a future here. If we don't cut our losses now, we're morons. We're at the point where if we cut him, we take a $14M cap hit total, and if we keep him we take a $14M cap hit EACH YEAR. Which one is worse, duh?

Sure, he happened into a few sacks at the start of the season, but I sure as hell didn't see him making much of an impact. Worst contract in franchise history.

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Honestly I think a good portion of this board who expressed an opinion at the time were very bothered by the Steelers retaining Ike over Keenan. I know I was at least. :lol:

Honestly, I think that was another cap issue. Or more specifically, our hands were tied because of restructures that made Taylor a poor value to get rid of, so we were stuck. If we had the choice of taking Ike's salary and giving it to Lewis, that move would be so obvious it's painful, but unfortunately, we were locked into paying Taylor.

[Dwinsgames]

They would be better off giving Ben a new contract and saving money that way. Another restructure of his current deal can't happen.


110% agree ...

restructures are NOT the way to go ... rip it up and start over is a far more effective manner of doing things getting any left over salary cap hits out of the way in the first year where you keep the base salary LOW

[dislocatedday]

IMO. the Steelers should offer Worilds something like 6 years for 36 million, with 8 million of that a signing bonus. I think that is reasonable and fair for both sides based on where Worilds is at this stage.

....and Woodley must go. I don't think he is awful, but rather I think he is just an "above average" player at this point in his career, and "above average" players should not be getting the money he does. It's time to move on from him.

[zulater]

Would it be worth being in cap hell for another couple years if you could put yourself in next year's Super Bowl?

[Dwinsgames]

Would it be worth being in cap hell for another couple years if you could put yourself in next year's Super Bowl?


that is the same logic that was used that put us in the mess we are currently in = no thanks

[zulater]

that is the same logic that was used that put us in the mess we are currently in = no thanks

So instead we can spend the last few years of Ben's prime being mediocre ( at best), and build the team for his eventual successor? No thanks, been there and done that for the 20 years between Bradshaw and Ben.

If I'm in charge I do what I can to maximize our chances for the next 1-3 years. Then figure you can pay the piper at the end of Ben's run.

[Chidi29]

sounds like a keenan lewis evaluation by 90% of the people on this board last year. that turned out just awesome.

Just because it bit you once, doesn't mean you automatically switch course the next year. Each situation independent. If you make decisions based on what has most recently happened and not based on values/principles, you're never going to have a clear goal/philosophy. Will constantly change and you won't have stability.

Like I said, I outlined a way to sign Worilds and keep Woodley for a year. That's the idea I'm in favor of.

[Dwinsgames]

So instead we can spend the last few years of Ben's prime being mediocre, and build the team for his eventual successor? No thanks, been there and done that for the 20 years between Bradshaw and Ben.

I do not believe in mortgaging the future on a wing and a prayer proposition .....

you could always trade Ben if that is your worry and be mediocre with someone else under center ....

if Ben is all you claim he is he should be able to carry the team for half dozen wins all by himself ,...

there is no good answer , but you can not keep doing the same things that put you into a mess to somehow get out of the mess it does not work ....

under your scenario You wager the future of the team ( that still has question marks ) to try and get Ben another Lombardi or two and week 1 Ben goes down it was all for not .... not worth the risk of the future for something that is FAR from a sure thing ( another Lombardi or two )

[NCSteeler]

Woodley's first six games? Five sacks.

Prorate that for an entire season and he registers 13. Just the math.

He's averaging 6 sacks a season the last three years, averaging 11 games played, he's on serious decline. Time to move on

[steelreserve]

Would it be worth being in cap hell for another couple years if you could put yourself in next year's Super Bowl?

I would say yes ... but the key to that statement is "put yourself in next year's Super Bowl." Show me a way to do that and I'd be all for it.

However, I have no idea what in the hell we could do by next year to make it even remotely likely, apart from having blind luck. And since we'd need about the same amount of luck to win the Super Bowl WITHOUT trashing our cap situation even more, I'd say we might as well not.

[NCSteeler]

It's still a risk to try and push those cap issues off. You're really banking on the salary cap spiking when the TV deals kick in for 2015 but you never really know for sure.

The entire point I'm making here is that it is a bit short-sighted to think Woodley played awful. Again, by far our most productive pass rusher the first half of the year. Easily forgotten because it was marred by a terrible start.

I like Worilds. I seriously do. Great bend around the edge and has good hustle. But two cavaets.

1. I still don't buy into paying big money for a position where we've thrown guys in and they've had success. Overall, all Bruce Davis aside, we evaluate OLBs well. I was against Woodley's contract from the day he signed it for that reason (proof of that because I said that in an interview with The Trib representing this site the day the news broke).

2. As much as I like Worilds, you can't deny you're paying 40+ million for a guy what, six or seven weeks of strong production? It's a risk basing it off that small sample size. Not like Worilds has been productive for two seasons now.

Alonzo Jackson, Kendrel Bell, Bruce Davis..... I'd hang on to a young guy that we think can play, like Worilds.

[Chidi29]

He's averaging 6 sacks a season the last three years, averaging 11 games played, he's on serious decline. Time to move on

The injuries are random, nagging things and it was obvious he rushed them last season (likely pressured by the coaching staff). When he plays, he's productive. Anyone can get hurt and we're not talking about Woodley dealing with a major injury.

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Alonzo Jackson, Kendrel Bell, Bruce Davis..... I'd hang on to a young guy that we think can play, like Worilds.

We've seen a time where Clark Haggans can produce 8.5 sacks. I don't think we need to spend major dollars on them. And you have Jones for the next four years before you need to pony up cash. What Kruger got is about as high as I would go.

[Dwinsgames]

Alonzo Jackson, Kendrel Bell, Bruce Davis..... I'd hang on to a young guy that we think can play, like Worilds.


Bell does not deserve to be in the same conversation of the other two

[NCSteeler]

Bell does not deserve to be in the same conversation of the other two

I know I hesitated because of his injuries, but he still turned out to be nothing much for the Steelers

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The injuries are random, nagging things and it was obvious he rushed them last season (likely pressured by the coaching staff). When he plays, he's productive. Anyone can get hurt and we're not talking about Woodley dealing with a major injury.

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We've seen a time where Clark Haggans can produce 8.5 sacks. I don't think we need to spend major dollars on them. And you have Jones for the next four years before you need to pony up cash. What Kruger got is about as high as I would go.

Oh I'm not saying pay him mad cash, but I still think he's the better move over Woodley. Being that he showed he can only play against RT , I'm thinking his deal should be about the same as Kruger. If you could find a way to squeeze both for one more year, it would be ideal. The real question now becomes, Can Cris Carter turn the corner next season similar to Worilds doing it this year? Also, as far as our OLB evaluations, we must learn that we are not dealing with the same situation anymore. Too many teams are playing 3-4 for us to steal cheap productive OLBs.

[Chidi29]

You're looking at a 5 year/45 million deal for Worilds. Probably going to want slightly above what Kruger got (always look to one up the guy before you).

And if you want to use Kruger as comparison, look at how he regressed from last year to the next. Nine sacks in 2012 to 4.5 sacks in 2013. And that's playing in Ray Horton's scheme with a great defensive line and opposite pass rushers (Sheard, Keke). Big risk in ponying up money in a guy who really hasn't proven it. Woodley has put up sack numbers when healthy pretty much his whole career.

[dislocatedday]

You're looking at a 5 year/45 million deal for Worilds. Probably going to want slightly above what Kruger got (always look to one up the guy before you).
.

If that is what it would take to keep Worilds, then let him walk. I can't see the Steelers committing $9M per season to him, and I don't think he has done enough to earn that kind of money yet. He has played well this year, and is still young with room to improve, but I just don't see how or why the Steelers would commit $9M per season to him at this stage. The Browns were foolish to sign Kruger to that deal, so if that is the stick used for leverage, then the Steelers should walk away.

[Chidi29]

I know I hesitated because of his injuries, but he still turned out to be nothing much for the Steelers

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Oh I'm not saying pay him mad cash, but I still think he's the better move over Woodley. Being that he showed he can only play against RT , I'm thinking his deal should be about the same as Kruger. If you could find a way to squeeze both for one more year, it would be ideal. The real question now becomes, Can Cris Carter turn the corner next season similar to Worilds doing it this year? Also, as far as our OLB evaluations, we must learn that we are not dealing with the same situation anymore. Too many teams are playing 3-4 for us to steal cheap productive OLBs.

To answer this question, it's a resounding no. Not a chance. Doubt he is here next year.

[oneforthetoe]

A lot of good points. If given a choice, would like to keep both for one more year but that is not possible with our cap situation. One point I would like to make - all these linebackers would look a lot better with a dominate d line leading the way. That is why I think out number one priority is a finding a dominate NT.

[zulater]

I think people are very misguided and running scared of the scary cap monster. The Steelers do in fact have some clue in what they're doing and did in fact have a team that would have been capable of competing this year had not extraordinary circumstances intervened. That's not to say they didn't have some culpability, and there wasn't some poor planning and bad roster choices that helped fuel things. But luck as much as anything derailed this season's early fates. No Pouncey, no Miller, no left tackle, no real running back, this is what derailed the season out the gate. And losing Foote in the opener was a killer for the defense.

In today's NFL all teams have depth issues. Not many if any would have fared much better given the Steelers early season talent drain.

[Steeldude]

Hmm...I remember everyone giving me heat about my view on Woodley since he has been here. Oh how times have changed

[zulater]

Hmm...I remember everyone giving me heat about my view on Woodley since he has been here. Oh how times have changed


I still think you were wrong on him, in as much as pre injury 2011 he was in my opinion a very good outside linebacker in the Steelers system. Since he popped his hammy against the Patriots that year he's been a different player, one that's mostly a liability.

[NCSteeler]

A lot of good points. If given a choice, would like to keep both for one more year but that is not possible with our cap situation. One point I would like to make - all these linebackers would look a lot better with a dominate d line leading the way. That is why I think out number one priority is a finding a dominate NT.

A true Dominant NT. Is exactly what we need and the rest of the defense will get much better

[Chidi29]

A lot of good points. If given a choice, would like to keep both for one more year but that is not possible with our cap situation. One point I would like to make - all these linebackers would look a lot better with a dominate d line leading the way. That is why I think out number one priority is a finding a dominate NT.

I disagree. Think that's a blanket statement that sounds good in theory but doesn't work in practice. Your big 330 guy isn't playing on 3rd and long. He's off the field. And the Steelers have played very little base personnel this season, especially the second half of the year. So even if we had one, he wouldn't see the field. Our dime package is what we use the majority of the time now with just two down lineman.

[Steeldude]

I still think you were wrong on him, in as much as pre injury 2011 he was in my opinion a very good outside linebacker in the Steelers system. Since he popped his hammy against the Patriots that year he's been a different player, one that's mostly a liability.

He isn't good in pass coverage, against the run, containment or pursuit. He gets some sacks which fools a lot of fans. If he was healthy and had 14 sacks you would want to keep him, right? I wouldn't want to. I would rather have an all-around OLB.

As you said, "...in the Steelers system".

[Dwinsgames]

I think people are very misguided and running scared of the scary cap monster. The Steelers do in fact have some clue in what they're doing and did in fact have a team that would have been capable of competing this year had not extraordinary circumstances intervened. That's not to say they didn't have some culpability, and there wasn't some poor planning and bad roster choices that helped fuel things. But luck as much as anything derailed this season's early fates. No Pouncey, no Miller, no left tackle, no real running back, this is what derailed the season out the gate. And losing Foote in the opener was a killer for the defense.

In today's NFL all teams have depth issues. Not many if any would have fared much better given the Steelers early season talent drain.


sorry I could not disagree more , we ended last season on the suck .... they did little to change that

our preseason was the suck ...... they did nothing to change that

our first 4 games of the regular season was also the suck ......

[Hindes204]

I'm almost inclined to take that $50 bet Zu....I think he starts again next year

[Psycho Ward 86]

Would it be worth being in cap hell for another couple years if you could put yourself in next year's Super Bowl?

where are you getting this notion that we HAVE TO be in cap hell to get to a superbowl? other successful teams like the packers, ravens, patriots that have QB's on contracts that arent their first are doing really well and have been for a while. yes, theyve had to make some tough decisions with personnel to keep their salary cap situations in check, but they are still doing just fine. and if you are looking at how they are doing this season, well then you have to consider the tough personnel decisions and injuries that they have had to deal with, and how they are still hanging tough in a vicious playoff race. the fact that these are considered poor seasons for teams like those 3 speaks to their outstanding typical successes

[zulater]

sorry I could not disagree more , we ended last season on the suck .... they did little to change that

our preseason was the suck ...... they did nothing to change that

our first 4 games of the regular season was also the suck ......

Our first four games our primary tight end was David Paulson, our primary back was Ike Redman, our left tackle was the badly overmatched Mike Adams, and our replacement center was learning the offense and the team. If we beat Cleveland we finish our last 12 at 8-4.

Why am I to believe that isn't momentum we can take into next year? In 2006 the Steelers went 6-2 in their last 8 games and ended up in the playoffs the following year and the Super Bowl the year after that.

In 2009 they won their last 3 games and ended up in the Super Bowl the following year.

I think the 6-2 finish is reflective of real growth.

Guess we'll see next year.

[Dwinsgames]

Our first four games our primary tight end was David Paulson, our primary back was Ike Redman, our left tackle was the badly overmatched Mike Adams, and our replacement center was learning the offense and the team. If we beat Cleveland we finish our last 12 at 8-4.

Why am I to believe that isn't momentum we can take into next year? In 2006 the Steelers went 6-2 in their last 8 games and ended up in the playoffs the following year and the Super Bowl the year after that.

In 2009 they won their last 3 games and ended up in the Super Bowl the following year.

I think the 6-2 finish is reflective of real growth.

Guess we'll see next year.

we KNEW Miller was going to be out , what did we do to address it Spaeth ? Please ........

Redman being the primary back ? their choice I am well documented before that choice was made that is would be a big mistake , they chose it and it bit them in the ass ...many here knew it was the wrong move but the team could not recognize it ( what does that tell you about their abilities ? )

Many also addressed ( myself included ) that is was a dire mistake to go into the season with very little in terms of depth at the tackle pos , for a few reasons ...

1) lack of experience especially on the blind side

2) lack of proven durability at both tackle spots neither Gilbert or Adams proved to be a durable player prior to being named the starters with little to nothing behind them in terms of depth yet they did it anyways ...

6-2 finish tells us nothing really when you consider who we actually have beaten .... from that 6-2 record in the final 8 ( provided we beat the browns that is and we probably will ) only 1 team is playoff bound for certain and only 3 of those teams have the ability to finish at 500 or better ( but could end up being less ) a 2-6 finish last year I believe ( or something close ) all this season proves ot me is we are what we where last year , an average team who at times can ball but are just as likely to fold even against bad teams ....

we will see but I refuse to be had by slight of hand and good play vs bad teams or beat up teams with like GB who has 15 guys on IR and their Franchise QB on the sidelines ...

I am still a fan of the team but I am not a fan of its direction or its leadership and GM

Merry Christmas Zu

[zulater]

You ask who we beat in finishing up 6-2, when a better way of looking at it is to ask who we didn't beat in going 2-6. We didn't beat the Vikings, the Titans, the Bears, the Raiders. Half of being successful in the NFL is winning the games you're supposed to. The NFL will always afford you 6-8 2 foot putts. It's what you do with them that determines your fate as often as not.

[Dwinsgames]

You ask who we beat in finishing up 6-2, when a better way of looking at it is to ask who we didn't beat in going 2-6. We didn't beat the Vikings, the Titans, the Bears, the Raiders. Half of being successful in the NFL is winning the games you're supposed to. The NFL will always afford you 6-8 2 foot putts. It's what you do with them that determines your fate as often as not.


7 games all year (including the Bengals and Ravens x2 ) that will finish for sure at .500 that was on our schedule , this MIGHT be the lowest strength of schedule we have played in over a decade ( not based on those teams records of last year but their actual 2013 records )

the amount of teams sounds almost normal in itself , but all those teams except the Bengals are at or 1 game over 500

[NCSteeler]

I disagree. Think that's a blanket statement that sounds good in theory but doesn't work in practice. Your big 330 guy isn't playing on 3rd and long. He's off the field. And the Steelers have played very little base personnel this season, especially the second half of the year. So even if we had one, he wouldn't see the field. Our dime package is what we use the majority of the time now with just two down lineman.

I know you are a student of the game, but a true NT changes all that. We are playing more non base D because we have to. When Big Snack was in his glory he was in on a lot of downs and was all over the field. We need that type of player to make this D work that good again. Check what Ray Lewis looked like the 2 years after Goose retired, he was total crap because without that NT your MLBers are taking on blocks more. Without a NT you can spread Oline protection better.

I could be totally off base but I'm confident in the belief that a good 3-4 builds off the NT taking double teams every down, allowing your OLBs better rush lanes, allowing your MLBs clean lanes to the runner and all that makes your back end much better.

[Chidi29]

I know you are a student of the game, but a true NT changes all that. We are playing more non base D because we have to. When Big Snack was in his glory he was in on a lot of downs and was all over the field. We need that type of player to make this D work that good again. Check what Ray Lewis looked like the 2 years after Goose retired, he was total crap because without that NT your MLBers are taking on blocks more. Without a NT you can spread Oline protection better.

I could be totally off base but I'm confident in the belief that a good 3-4 builds off the NT taking double teams every down, allowing your OLBs better rush lanes, allowing your MLBs clean lanes to the runner and all that makes your back end much better.

We still have a pretty good NT in McClendon. And he's much more athletic so he'd be an asset on pass rushing downs. When Hampton played in his prime, there were teams spreading the field less, throwing less so there's a factor. Fact is we've been in base really little and that seems to be our style now. And even with that, our OLBs have seen a lot of one on one matchups. Just haven't one. Jarvis Jones' issues aren't because there isn't a nose tackle out there.

[zulater]

We still have a pretty good NT in McClendon. And he's much more athletic so he'd be an asset on pass rushing downs. When Hampton played in his prime, there were teams spreading the field less, throwing less so there's a factor. Fact is we've been in base really little and that seems to be our style now. And even with that, our OLBs have seen a lot of one on one matchups. Just haven't one. Jarvis Jones' issues aren't because there isn't a nose tackle out there.

I saw McClendon as a huge disappointment this year. If anything what he proved was that he's one of those guys where less is more. The fewer plays he's in the more effective he is. He just doesn't have the bulk to play NT in the 3-4. You got to be able to command double teams, one thing with Big Snack was if they dared block him man up you knew it was a passing play. Because do that on a run and he's blowing the play up 3 out of 5 times.

I haven't seen enough of Woods to say one way or the other right now. But I tend to agree with the mindset that we need to bring in a nose tackle from outside the present roster.

[GBMelBlount]

It hasn't exactly made us the worst team in the world has it? This season's bad start had more to do with Pouncey's injury, and Heath Miller's and Leveon Bell's early absence from the lineup, and the inept play of Adams at left tackle, than a strained cap.

Again lose Worilds and figure you're defense is going to suck ball next year and you throw another prime year of Ben's career away. Not a good plan.

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The cap isn't what killed this team's early season. And it wont kill next year or the year after either. Yeah eventually there comes a day you pay for everything. But let it be the day after Big Ben retires. As long as he's playing at a high level push back the costs and keep trying to win it now!

Don't most teams have just as many injuries to key players on average?

Personally I think it's a wash on the injury front and the cap is hurting us.

Not only are we not able to resign some up and coming players due to current contracts but have to dumpster dive on FA.

If I am not mistaken we only have about $40 million to sign 40+ members of the 53 man roster.....that is only about a million per player.

Not good.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I saw McClendon as a huge disappointment this year. If anything what he proved was that he's one of those guys where less is more. The fewer plays he's in the more effective he is. He just doesn't have the bulk to play NT in the 3-4. You got to be able to command double teams, one thing with Big Snack was if they dared block him man up you knew it was a passing play. Because do that on a run and he's blowing the play up 3 out of 5 times.

I haven't seen enough of Woods to say one way or the other right now. But I tend to agree with the mindset that we need to bring in a nose tackle from outside the present roster.

mclendon is bigger than woods. and if you want a nose tackle from free agency, who will we be afford thats worth having? And who will we be afford, keeping in mind, some of the key free agents in the offseason being jason worilds, fernando velasco, jerricho cotchery, al woods, and ziggy hood?

[zulater]

Don't most teams have just as many injuries to key players on average?

Personally I think it's a wash on the injury front and the cap is hurting us.

Not only are we not able to resign some up and coming players due to current contracts but have to dumpster dive on FA.

If I am not mistaken we only have about $40 million to sign 40+ members of the 53 man roster.....that is only about a million per player.


Not good.


All teams have injuries, but not all injuries are the same. Regardless, much of the early season troubles were of their own doing, but at the same token wouldn't you agree that the offense of the last 7 games is a helluva lot better than the one from the first 8? No team could win with the early season blocking the Steelers were serving up. If we can take a relatively healthy unit of Beachum, Foster, Pouncey, DeCastro, Gilbert, and Heath Miller. With Adams, Whimper, Wallace and possibly Speath in reserve the offense shouldn't be a liability like it was for so much of the early season.

[GBMelBlount]

All teams have injuries, but not all injuries are the same.

Regardless, much of the early season troubles were of their own doing, but at the same token wouldn't you agree that the offense of the last 7 games is a helluva lot better than the one from the first 8? No team could win with the early season blocking the Steelers were serving up.

If we can take a relatively healthy unit of Beachum, Foster, Pouncey, DeCastro, Gilbert, and Heath Miller. With Adams, Whimper, Wallace and possibly Speath in reserve the offense shouldn't be a liability like it was for so much of the early season.

I completely agree.

In fact this season seems to have turned out as many had predicted....a mediocre / poor first half of the season until the offensive line (and team as a whole) "gelled."

[NCSteeler]

Anyone who thinks a NT isn't important see multiple plays today where Woods got owned by one lonely man while Rbs made huge plays.

[dislocatedday]

Anyone who thinks a NT isn't important see multiple plays today where Woods got owned by one lonely man while Rbs made huge plays.

At the beginning of the year I would have said LT is our biggest need to address during next offseason..........not anymore though, NT has moved to the top of my want list for this team.

[LLT]

At the beginning of the year I would have said LT is our biggest need to address during next offseason..........not anymore though, NT has moved to the top of my want list for this team.

I would agree we need to upgrade...but keep in mind that Goodell has successfully turned the NFL into a passing league and that changes the need/value a bit.

[Chidi29]

Anyone who thinks a NT isn't important see multiple plays today where Woods got owned by one lonely man while Rbs made huge plays.

I'm talking about the usefulness of a NT to help generate pressure/sacks from an OLB. Not that big of a difference. Against the run, obviously a NT is the key player...

[LLT]

I'm talking about the usefulness of a NT to help generate pressure/sacks from an OLB. Not that big of a difference. Against the run, obviously a NT is the key player...

Exactly...which is why a more athletic NT is preferable over a fatbody. The run/pass percentage dictates that we rethink what we traditionally have used as a starter. But nothing says we cant have both. It just lowers the value of the 340 lb NT's that were all the rage 10 years ago.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Anyone who thinks a NT isn't important see multiple plays today where Woods got owned by one lonely man while Rbs made huge plays.

so much for al woods as a possible answer to our NT woes. damn.

[Chidi29]

Exactly...which is why a more athletic NT is preferable over a fatbody. The run/pass percentage dictates that we rethink what we traditionally have used as a starter. But nothing says we cant have both. It just lowers the value of the 340 lb NT's that were all the rage 10 years ago.

But if this year is an indication, with how much subpackage we use, we'll never have a NT on the field on 3rd down.

[LLT]

But if this year is an indication, with how much subpackage we use, we'll never have a NT on the field on 3rd down.

Possibly...but on definite short yardage run plays or when a team is trying to run the clock...a hole clogger would be nice. Other wise a more athletic NT would be used. The fatbody wouldnt be a waste because he could still act as a wave player when the other NT needs a breather.

[Dwinsgames]

But if this year is an indication, with how much subpackage we use, we'll never have a NT on the field on 3rd down.

perhaps part of the reason for all the sub package football is because the quality of the current NT is lacking ... not saying that is the case , however when your starting nose is not commanding a double team most downs and he is not disruptive in those situations there is a trickle down to the rest of the front 7 and consequently the back 4 in terms of play ... everything in the 34 is predicated on that nose commanding the double down , and everything flows off of that ... if it fails your doomed from the onset at your game plan and have to make other adjustments to counter

[Chidi29]

Possibly...but on definite short yardage run plays or when a team is trying to run the clock...a hole clogger would be nice. Other wise a more athletic NT would be used. The fatbody wouldnt be a waste because he could still act as a wave player when the other NT needs a breather.

Of course, getting a big body is a huge boost. Why people will link us to Louis Nix come draft time. And to be fair, though he is no Hamp, McClendon came into the year at 325.

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perhaps part of the reason for all the sub package football is because the quality of the current NT is lacking ... not saying that is the case , however when your starting nose is not commanding a double team most downs and he is not disruptive in those situations there is a trickle down to the rest of the front 7 and consequently the back 4 in terms of play ... everything in the 34 is predicated on that nose commanding the double down , and everything flows off of that ... if it fails your doomed from the onset at your game plan and have to make other adjustments to counter

I think it was more suited to opponent's personnel. Because there were games where we played a lot more base. Against Cincy for example, who use a ton of 2 TE sets.

Just keep in mind I'm talking about how helpful a NT is on passing downs. We're going to be in base 95% of the time and won't use one. And still, linebackers were left in a lot of one-on-ones this year. Heyward forced a ton of double-teams with the pressure he got. Linebackers just didn't win.

I fully see the value of a dominant nose tackle against the run.

[LLT]

Of course, getting a big body is a huge boost. Why people will link us to Louis Nix come draft time. And to be fair, though he is no Hamp, McClendon came into the year at 325.

I thought he never looked like 325. If he was...he carried it well.

[Dwinsgames]

I thought he never looked like 325. If he was...he carried it well.


that number kind of jumps off the page for me too ....

wonder if it is a reality of just creative scale work by the team ...

[Chidi29]

I thought he never looked like 325. If he was...he carried it well.

That's what he is listed at and says he is.

http://www.post-gazette.com/steelers/2012/08/18/On-the-Steelers-McLendon-wraps-big-paws-around-job-at-nose-tackle/stories/201208180110

"McLendon is 6-4 and preposterously listed by the Steelers as weighing 280. He said he weighed that as a junior at Troy. He weighs 325 today."

[Dwinsgames]

That's what he is listed at and says he is.

http://www.post-gazette.com/steelers/2012/08/18/On-the-Steelers-McLendon-wraps-big-paws-around-job-at-nose-tackle/stories/201208180110

"McLendon is 6-4 and preposterously listed by the Steelers as weighing 280. He said he weighed that as a junior at Troy. He weighs 325 today."


looking at him would make one believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle , but looks can be deceiving

[Psycho Ward 86]

But if this year is an indication, with how much subpackage we use, we'll never have a NT on the field on 3rd down.

i thought the whole reason for the heavy usage of subpackages this season was the lack of a proven NT commodity and a true 2nd ILB?

[Chidi29]

i thought the whole reason for the heavy usage of subpackages this season was the lack of a proven NT commodity and a true 2nd ILB?

I'm sure that played a bit of a role but McClendon saw a ton of snaps Week 1. I thought he had a pretty successful season. A lot of it was about having the versatility of an extra DB than a LB.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I'm sure that played a bit of a role but McClendon saw a ton of snaps Week 1. I thought he had a pretty successful season. A lot of it was about having the versatility of an extra DB than a LB.

well that is somewhat reassuring i suppose. so do you think the defenses overall lack of success was more of a product of not having a true 2nd ILB that could be relied upon?

[Chidi29]

well that is somewhat reassuring i suppose. so do you think the defenses overall lack of success was more of a product of not having a true 2nd ILB that could be relied upon?

I mean, it doesn't help. I think Vince Williams could be a full-time starter and he was seeing a lot of snaps the first half of the season (another reason why I think it's a philsophical idea to use more sub package). But he played so sparingly and then got replaced by Garvin in the nickel, stunting his growth even more.

I dunno, I guess I still need to think about what the team might do next year. But the amount of subpackage they played was overwhelmingly strong and you'd have to think part of that was a philosophical move, not a personnel one.