Well, I was wrong.

[Edman]

I was in the position of believing this team should tank the season and go for a high draft pick earlier in the year.

I said Ben should go.

I said "Fire This guy and that guy".

I gave up and I didn't really believe this team even had a chance, but here they are in the final week, with a shot (a longshot) to get into the postseason at 8-8. If they beat the Browns of course.

The Steelers could've caved in at any point, they knew they were a flawed team, but they never gave up. After losing a heartbreaker to Miami, they came out and punched the AFC North Champion Bengals in the mouth, then won a barnburner in Green Bay. You can tell by their play that this team has no quit in them. Fake Punt? Going for the TD? Call it stupid, call it insane, I call it desperation. This team is desperate and playing like they have nothing to lose. Just throw out caution and go for it. Tomlin is desperate and so is his team.

If only they didn't wait until November to wake up.

Does this team have ONE LAST Christmas Miracle in them? They need to win and have three other teams lose. 6.25% odds, but this has been a crazy year in the NFL as is.

[st33lersguy]

Call me pessimistic but I don't see it happening. The Jets need to beat Miami in Miami, the Jets are putrid on the road. They are 1-6, their only win was a 2 point win in Atlanta, and they lost to crappy Buffalo and Tennessee by more than 20 points. Add in Kansas City who is locked into the no. 5 seed and playing San Diego who won at Denver who was trying to fend off New England for home-field advantage. Then there is Cincinnati who always intentionally tanks their games just to hurt the Steelers. Plus, other teams don't like to help the Steelers, whenever the Steelers need other teams to lose, those teams always fail. No way they get 3 teams to help them to get to the playoffs

[GBMelBlount]

I was in the position of believing this team should tank the season and go for a high draft pick earlier in the year.

I said Ben should go.

I said "Fire This guy and that guy".

I gave up and I didn't really believe this team even had a chance, but here they are in the final week, with a shot (a longshot) to get into the postseason at 8-8. If they beat the Browns of course.

The Steelers could've caved in at any point, they knew they were a flawed team, but they never gave up. After losing a heartbreaker to Miami, they came out and punched the AFC North Champion Bengals in the mouth, then won a barnburner in Green Bay. You can tell by their play that this team has no quit in them. Fake Punt? Going for the TD? Call it stupid, call it insane, I call it desperation. This team is desperate and playing like they have nothing to lose. Just throw out caution and go for it. Tomlin is desperate and so is his team.

If only they didn't wait until November to wake up.

Does this team have ONE LAST Christmas Miracle in them? They need to win and have three other teams lose. 6.25% odds, but this has been a crazy year in the NFL as is.

The only thing you are guilty of in my opinion is being a passionate Steelers fan and speaking in the heat of the moment. :drink:

I'll take 6.25% at this point.

Anything can happen.

[steelreserve]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that we even have a chance to salvage the season at this point, and I'll be rooting for a miracle to happen this weekend, however unlikely it may be.

In the longer view, let's not kid ourselves. If we make the playoffs this year, it's because we were lucky, and the truth is that going into the offseason we'll be coming off (at best) back-to-back 8-8 seasons; we might even be 7-9. Not a ton to be proud of there, and the team has a ton of problems that need to be addressed. We came into the season totally unprepared, which has not been particularly unusual under this coaching staff.

So yes, while I'll be supporting the team all the way to the end, I think there still need to be big changes in the way we're doing things. That means trimming the roster of dead weight (Woodley, I'm looking at you) and older players who are no longer helping to "keep the championship window open" (Clark, Kiesel, Ike, Foote), and it means replacing some of the people who put us in this situation in the first place - at minimum, both line coaches and Omar Khan, and possibly Tomlin himself.

It's kind of like continuing to support the troops even if you think the commander-in-chief may be a jackass.

[MrPgh]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that we even have a chance to salvage the season at this point, and I'll be rooting for a miracle to happen this weekend, however unlikely it may be.

In the longer view, let's not kid ourselves. If we make the playoffs this year, it's because we were lucky, and the truth is that going into the offseason we'll be coming off (at best) back-to-back 8-8 seasons; we might even be 7-9. Not a ton to be proud of there, and the team has a ton of problems that need to be addressed. We came into the season totally unprepared, which has not been particularly unusual under this coaching staff.

So yes, while I'll be supporting the team all the way to the end, I think there still need to be big changes in the way we're doing things. That means trimming the roster of dead weight (Woodley, I'm looking at you) and older players who are no longer helping to "keep the championship window open" (Clark, Kiesel, Ike, Foote), and it means replacing some of the people who put us in this situation in the first place - at minimum, both line coaches and Omar Khan, and possibly Tomlin himself.

It's kind of like continuing to support the troops even if you think the commander-in-chief may be a jackass.

Unfortunately, Art II can't be elected out of owning the Steelers.

[Mojouw]

I don't know why this point bugs me so much, but it seems to always get my goat.

Omar Khan is simply the negotiation wing of the Steelers FO working group. He makes the players the personnel side mandates him to sign "fit" in a given year's cap structure. He does not make many (if any) decisions on who those players are. Woodley's original contract was viewed as a solid and potentially team friendly contract at the time. As Dwins has pointed out, it was the restructures that made it so onerous. I highly doubt Khan lay awake at night devising schemes to randomly restructure players' contacts to provided bloated cap #'s in future years. The decision to go to players like Woodley and get cap room from restructures was a decision made several pay grades above Omar Khan. Go ahead, we can do it. It is okay to criticize the owners.

Blaming/Firing Omar Khan over the restructuring mess, is like demanding the bagger at the grocery store be fired for crushing the cart full of groceries you told them to fit into only 2 bags. They did what they were asked. You simply asked for something stupid.

[GBMelBlount]

I don't know why this point bugs me so much, but it seems to always get my goat.

Omar Khan is simply the negotiation wing of the Steelers FO working group. He makes the players the personnel side mandates him to sign "fit" in a given year's cap structure. He does not make many (if any) decisions on who those players are. Woodley's original contract was viewed as a solid and potentially team friendly contract at the time. As Dwins has pointed out, it was the restructures that made it so onerous. I highly doubt Khan lay awake at night devising schemes to randomly restructure players' contacts to provided bloated cap #'s in future years. The decision to go to players like Woodley and get cap room from restructures was a decision made several pay grades above Omar Khan. Go ahead, we can do it. It is okay to criticize the owners.

Blaming/Firing Omar Khan over the restructuring mess, is like demanding the bagger at the grocery store be fired for crushing the cart full of groceries you told them to fit into only 2 bags.

They did what they were asked. You simply asked for something stupid.

Exactly!

Or someone making their girlfriend wear jeans 3 sizes to small and then breaking up with her because she looks like 20 lbs. of shit in a 10 lb bag!

[MrPgh]

I don't know why this point bugs me so much, but it seems to always get my goat.

Omar Khan is simply the negotiation wing of the Steelers FO working group. He makes the players the personnel side mandates him to sign "fit" in a given year's cap structure. He does not make many (if any) decisions on who those players are. Woodley's original contract was viewed as a solid and potentially team friendly contract at the time. As Dwins has pointed out, it was the restructures that made it so onerous. I highly doubt Khan lay awake at night devising schemes to randomly restructure players' contacts to provided bloated cap #'s in future years. The decision to go to players like Woodley and get cap room from restructures was a decision made several pay grades above Omar Khan. Go ahead, we can do it. It is okay to criticize the owners.

Blaming/Firing Omar Khan over the restructuring mess, is like demanding the bagger at the grocery store be fired for crushing the cart full of groceries you told them to fit into only 2 bags. They did what they were asked. You simply asked for something stupid.

Omar Khan and Kevin Colbert didn't make many bad decisions for much of the last decade. Did they suddenly wake up stupid one day? Or perhaps it had something to do with their old boss leaving the country?

I know, some of you roll your eyes when I take shots at Art II. As another poster put it, he's the elephant in the room here. Khan and Colbert didn't seem to have the problems they do now before Dan Rooney went over to Ireland.

[steelreserve]

I don't know why this point bugs me so much, but it seems to always get my goat.

Omar Khan is simply the negotiation wing of the Steelers FO working group. He makes the players the personnel side mandates him to sign "fit" in a given year's cap structure. He does not make many (if any) decisions on who those players are. Woodley's original contract was viewed as a solid and potentially team friendly contract at the time. As Dwins has pointed out, it was the restructures that made it so onerous. I highly doubt Khan lay awake at night devising schemes to randomly restructure players' contacts to provided bloated cap #'s in future years. The decision to go to players like Woodley and get cap room from restructures was a decision made several pay grades above Omar Khan. Go ahead, we can do it. It is okay to criticize the owners.

Blaming/Firing Omar Khan over the restructuring mess, is like demanding the bagger at the grocery store be fired for crushing the cart full of groceries you told them to fit into only 2 bags. They did what they were asked. You simply asked for something stupid.

Sort of. I know he's not the guy who decides who to sign and who not to - however, as the negotiator, he's supposed to get us the best deal he can, and I don't think he's done even close to that. With the Woodley and especially the Timmons contract, and possibly the Brown contract, I think we basically negotiated against ourselves to pay an extra 30%-50% premium over market value. Timmons? I love the way the guy plays, but there's no way you're convincing me he would've commanded $10M a year on the open market. Brown at $8.5M a year? Probably overshot that one by a million or two as well.

Yes, the restructures made the Woodley deal more of a burden toward the tail end, but the fundamental problem is that the dollar amount of the contract was too high to begin with. If Woodley was on a 5-year, $30M deal or a 4-year, $28M deal instead of a 6-year, $61M deal, a lot of those cap issues and restructure problems aren't there in the first place. Do I KNOW for a fact that we could've gotten those guys at those prices? Of course I don't. But I do think we got a bum deal in all three cases as a result of less-than-stellar negotiating.

The other part of it is that as the chief negotiator and salary cap expert, even if your bosses tell you to go sign someone, it IS your job to raise the red flag and say, "Hey .. guys. This would give us six players taking up half the salary cap. We can't afford another $10M contract." Sure, maybe they would overrule you anyway, but somehow I'm not 100% convinced that's the way it's gone down every time. Believe me, I am less than fully confident about the new generation of ownership.



Unfortunately, Art II can't be elected out of owning the Steelers.

Heh ... maybe, maybe not. Like a lot of sports franchises these days, there is the "owner" who is the traditional face of the franchise that everyone knows, and then there are the other owners who control the majority stake. The Rooneys own 30% of the team - who do you think owns the other 70%? (hint: http://www.steelers.com/news/article-1/Steelers-ownership-transition-moves-forward/14AD9E6C-B9E1-447B-A2B6-31C6A443979B)

Now, here's where we really get into the realm of where none of us have any idea what the hell actually goes on behind the scenes. But you would think that just like in any company, if things got bad enough, the people controlling the 70% could theoretically force the guy controlling the 30% to become a figurehead. Or maybe just get involved more somehow. Anyway, let's hope that Art Jr. wises up instead, and nobody has to deal with that kind of ugly scenario.

[Count Steeler]

AND we have experienced 3 years of a flat cap. Unprecedented. The cap SHOULD be at least 135mil if previous years trends were followed. IF the cap followed historic trends we would not have restructured anyone and we would not be in cap hell.

Again it blows my mind that the NFLPA is not grieving the cap level. 3 years without a raise in the years when the NFL is flush with cash. Enough so to pay Goofball 20M/year.

[Spike]

Fuck all the AFC - the only team we can't beat is the Pats - just need to sidestep them is all - we can beat any of the rest.

Bengals will kill the Ratbirds, KC can bench half their team and still beat the Chargers and Sexy Rexy has the Jets all hopped up ready to stomp a gunshy Tannehill & the Phins.

Playoffs here we come!

[stillers4me]

Fuck all the AFC - the only team we can't beat is the Pats - just need to sidestep them is all - we can beat any of the rest.

Bengals will kill the Ratbirds, KC can bench half their team and still beat the Chargers and Sexy Rexy has the Jets all hopped up ready to stomp a gunshy Tannehill & the Phins.

Playoffs here we come!
I like it! Can't beat the Pats*?. Never say never. Especially this year. And this Steelers team has a whole new mindset since the day we played them.

[Mojouw]

Sort of. I know he's not the guy who decides who to sign and who not to - however, as the negotiator, he's supposed to get us the best deal he can, and I don't think he's done even close to that. With the Woodley and especially the Timmons contract, and possibly the Brown contract, I think we basically negotiated against ourselves to pay an extra 30%-50% premium over market value. Timmons? I love the way the guy plays, but there's no way you're convincing me he would've commanded $10M a year on the open market. Brown at $8.5M a year? Probably overshot that one by a million or two as well.

Yes, the restructures made the Woodley deal more of a burden toward the tail end, but the fundamental problem is that the dollar amount of the contract was too high to begin with. If Woodley was on a 5-year, $30M deal or a 4-year, $28M deal instead of a 6-year, $61M deal, a lot of those cap issues and restructure problems aren't there in the first place. Do I KNOW for a fact that we could've gotten those guys at those prices? Of course I don't. But I do think we got a bum deal in all three cases as a result of less-than-stellar negotiating.

The other part of it is that as the chief negotiator and salary cap expert, even if your bosses tell you to go sign someone, it IS your job to raise the red flag and say, "Hey .. guys. This would give us six players taking up half the salary cap. We can't afford another $10M contract." Sure, maybe they would overrule you anyway, but somehow I'm not 100% convinced that's the way it's gone down every time. Believe me, I am less than fully confident about the new generation of ownership.




Heh ... maybe, maybe not. Like a lot of sports franchises these days, there is the "owner" who is the traditional face of the franchise that everyone knows, and then there are the other owners who control the majority stake. The Rooneys own 30% of the team - who do you think owns the other 70%? (hint: http://www.steelers.com/news/article-1/Steelers-ownership-transition-moves-forward/14AD9E6C-B9E1-447B-A2B6-31C6A443979B)

Now, here's where we really get into the realm of where none of us have any idea what the hell actually goes on behind the scenes. But you would think that just like in any company, if things got bad enough, the people controlling the 70% could theoretically force the guy controlling the 30% to become a figurehead. Or maybe just get involved more somehow. Anyway, let's hope that Art Jr. wises up instead, and nobody has to deal with that kind of ugly scenario.

Good points. I would counter that if you look at the pre-contract production from Woodley and combine that with his age at the time of the contract, it was at or below market value. I posted some comparable salaries in another thread somewhere or other. As hard as it is to say, especially on Steelers message board, I think you are undervaluing some of the players. Perhaps not in an objective analysis of their skill sets and production, but certainly in an analysis of the over-heated NFL free agent market. Timmons was an ILB in 3-4 with coverage and pass rush skills, demonstrated tackling ability, the potential to move out to the edge and impact, and would likely offer scheme flexibility in a 4-3 (I think he would do well in the old Derrick Brooks role in a 4-3). Hitting the market with (arguably) that skill-set at his age? He would have gotten more than the Steelers gave him. Same with Brown. Putting up #'s second only to Calvin Johnson and Josh Gordon? At less than $10-12 million per? Bargain.

Overall, I think the Steelers typically value their players correctly, at least in relation to what the they would command on the UFA market. They have a troubling pattern of over-valuing past production and running veterans out there a year too long. Additionally, as Count Steeler pointed out, if the cap would have progressed they way it was prior to the new CBA, none of this would have become an issue. The Steelers simply got that wrong. They signed a bunch of big contracts based on a progressively increasing salary cap. Instead they got a flat cap.

[Craic]

Omar Khan and Kevin Colbert didn't make many bad decisions for much of the last decade. Did they suddenly wake up stupid one day? Or perhaps it had something to do with their old boss leaving the country?

I know, some of you roll your eyes when I take shots at Art II. As another poster put it, he's the elephant in the room here. Khan and Colbert didn't seem to have the problems they do now before Dan Rooney went over to Ireland.

You were so close to being right, then took a hard left into blameland and forgettingsville. The Steeler organization literally came out a few years ago and SAID that they were keeping a SB team together, extending the window to get back to the SB. It was a calculated risk and they were willing to take on cap issues in order to try for another SB. As far as I remember, everyone but Steelreserve and one other had no problems with it, and those two complain about everything so they'd obviously have problems with it, too.

[Psycho Ward 86]

You were so close to being right, then took a hard left into blameland and forgettingsville. The Steeler organization literally came out a few years ago and SAID that they were keeping a SB team together, extending the window to get back to the SB. It was a calculated risk and they were willing to take on cap issues in order to try for another SB. As far as I remember, everyone but Steelreserve and one other had no problems with it, and those two complain about everything so they'd obviously have problems with it, too.

the only reason they did that is because this team forgot how to draft since 2008. if we actually remembered how, this team would be both a championship caliber team AND not stuck in the mouth of hell with the salary cap

[MrPgh]

You were so close to being right, then took a hard left into blameland and forgettingsville. The Steeler organization literally came out a few years ago and SAID that they were keeping a SB team together, extending the window to get back to the SB. It was a calculated risk and they were willing to take on cap issues in order to try for another SB. As far as I remember, everyone but Steelreserve and one other had no problems with it, and those two complain about everything so they'd obviously have problems with it, too.

When did this happen? Was Dan already in Ireland? If so, just another bad decision by Art II.

They don't get to dictate their window of opportunity with aging players on defense, father time does. The Steelers were never afraid to part ways with a longtime player in the past, now they're crippling their cap trying to squeeze more years out of washed-up players when in reality the Steelers are nowhere close to being contenders. Not only is it poor cap management, it's terrible assessment of their own talent.

[Dwinsgames]

Art II is also to blame for the black plague , the depression , WW2 , Korean war , Watergate , Aids , Polio , the stock market crash , the Johnstown flood 1 &2 and rumor is he pushed the buttons at Haarp headquarters that caused Catrina .....

[Count Steeler]

Art II is also to blame for the black plague , the depression , WW2 , Korean war , Watergate , Aids , Polio , the stock market crash , the Johnstown flood 1 &2 and rumor is he pushed the buttons at Haarp headquarters that caused Catrina .....

I thought Arians had those covered. :heh:

[Dwinsgames]

I thought Arians had those covered. :heh:


no he was in partnership with Art II till he retired and II never got another partner in crime after he left town

[Chidi29]

Reason why knee-jerk reactions and big overhauls are usually bad things. Steelers realize that and their success comes from their stability.

But at least you're man enough to own it. Most would hide from it. So kudos.

EDIT: And for the record, I was all about firing Jack Bicknell mid-way through the season. Now, I still wouldn't mind it, but I've cooled down on the idea. So I'm guilty too.

[X-Terminator]

DOOOOOOOOOOD...where have you been? Good to see you back!

[Chidi29]

DOOOOOOOOOOD...where have you been? Good to see you back!

Haha, I know, it's been too long. School, Depot, stuff. But finally on Christmas break and wanted to pop back in. Missed you guys, ha.

[salamander]

Welcome back, Chidi!

[Spike]

I like it! Can't beat the Pats*?. Never say never. Especially this year. And this Steelers team has a whole new mindset since the day we played them.
you could be right - but I'd rather beat the Bengals and the Broncos first and let the Pats get knocked out - in my speculations, that would be the best route

we can crack Peyton a couple times in the ribs and he could stiffen up in the cold and get the happy feet...but it's a long row to hoe till then

throw all the virgins in the volcano! - - it could happen!



I believe

[86WARD]

In REX we trust!!!

[zulater]

Nice thread topic Edman! :applaudit: And congratulations for owning up!

Ok now here's some things I was wrong about.

I thought Worilds was a bust and should have been cut this summer. :doh:

I thought Isaac Redman was a solid enough back to hold down the fort until Leveon Bell was healthy and up to speed. :doh:

I thought Romney would at least take the election into the wee hours of election night if not win the election entirely. I wont give myself a :doh: on this though, I reserve that for the American electorate who aided and abetted Obama's reelection either through action or inaction. :doh: You got what you asked for America.


I was wrong in wanting Ben traded for his own good early in the season. :doh: I was frustrated by the Steelers level of early season play and didn't see any rainbows on the horizon at the time. I now believe that if this team has a good offseason and a little bit of luck they could be right back in the thick of things next year as a legitimate contender.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a ton of other stuff I was wrong on, so I apologize for that as well.

And I'm sure I'm going to be wrong on 100 different things in the New Year, so I apologize in advance now for that too. :doh: :chuckle:

[Hawkman]

And I'm sure I'm going to be wrong on 100 different things in the New Year, so I apologize in advance now for that too. :doh: :chuckle:

Well spoken well said.:lol:

[pepsyman1]

Write or wrong, I still think it's time to move on from Coach D...lol

[Spike]

I was soooooo damn close

[zulater]

I know one poster who wont ever come on this thread and admit he was wrong about anything. I wont mention names, but here's a hint.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4752640247202244&pid=15.1http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4987939997224995&pid=15.1


:chuckle:

[steelerdiva]

I know one poster who wont ever come on this thread and admit he was wrong about anything. I wont mention names, but here's a hint.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4752640247202244&pid=15.1http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4987939997224995&pid=15.1


:chuckle:


Well played...:hatsoff:

[GBMelBlount]

I know one poster who wont ever come on this thread and admit he was wrong about anything. I wont mention names, but here's a hint.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4752640247202244&pid=15.1http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4987939997224995&pid=15.1


:chuckle:

USS Mutt? LOL

[Shoes]

I was wrong about Worilds also. I didn't say much about him but didn't think he would come around. I hope he stays with the team to drive that point home. I was also a bit hard on Cam Hay and he turned out to be the bright hope on the D-line. Zone Bicknell, if he doesn't get fired, we'll have to see what happens next season. Until then I'll stick to my guns. And then there's Ziggy, nothing imo has changed.

[GBMelBlount]

I was wrong about Worilds also. I didn't say much about him but didn't think he would come around. I hope he stays with the team to drive that point home. I was also a bit hard on Cam Hay and he turned out to be the bright hope on the D-line. Zone Bicknell, if he doesn't get fired, we'll have to see what happens next season. Until then I'll stick to my guns. And then there's Ziggy, nothing imo has changed.

If the scouts and FO are wrong half the time how can we expect to be be perfect.

Pimping who will make it is half the fun and arguing about it is the other half imo. lol.

[Shoes]

If the scouts and FO are wrong half the time how can we expect to be be perfect.

Pimping who will make it is half the fun and arguing about it is the other half imo. lol.

Bro, I'm almost to the point of offering you money to get rid of that brady pic. :chuckle:

[GBMelBlount]

Bro, I'm almost to the point of offering you money to get rid of that brady pic. :chuckle:

I am pretty sure it is a real picture of Brady Shoes (except for the obvious sock he put in his panties)