Was royally f***ing up the punter OK with you?

[steelreserve]

Just so you know, I'm not endorsing any one answer on this. Let's just say I understand both sides of it. I've been involved in a handful of sports plays like that, on either side (though thankfully I was never the one actually getting injured, only teammates), and I'm sure neither of the players involved felt great about it. I mean apart from the fact that we scored a touchdown. There's no doubt in my mind that it was a legal hit within the rules, but man, did the guy get messed up.

[blackngldblood]

If he didn't want to get his ass handed to him, he shouldn't be running around out there with those monsters on the field. It happens. Keep your head on a swivel and maybe next time you won't be picking your jaw up off the grass...


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[steelreserve]

If he didn't want to get his ass handed to him, he shouldn't be running around out there with those monsters on the field. It happens. Keep your head on a swivel and maybe next time you won't be picking your jaw up off the grass... Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

That was pretty much my reaction. I mean, he was in the middle of the play in a close game (at that point), and how many times do you see a kicker or a punter make the tackle or slow a guy down enough for someone else to knock him out of bounds or something? Still, you feel bad if you're the guy who injured someone like that, especially the kicker, since he's the only player on the field who's a regular guy and everyone else is a badass. It reminds me of one time in youth soccer when we were kicking the other team's ass, and I tried to pull off some crazy bicycle kick, and instead kicked their goalie right in the face. I mean, there was nothing really WRONG about it, but people were pissed.

[Psycho Ward 86]

yeah im cool with it. few better ways to send a message to your opponent than laying the wood early. im sure garvin didnt mean to break his jaw. he's just a special teamer that was lucky to make a roster so he's out there trying to make his case everytime he's out there on special teams. Message received lol. Hope huber recovers. Kind of like james harrison said, he tries to hurt people but not injure people. Thats the kind of thing i can condone, but this was just misfortune for huber

[blackngldblood]

That was pretty much my reaction. I mean, he was in the middle of the play in a close game (at that point), and how many times do you see a kicker or a punter make the tackle or slow a guy down enough for someone else to knock him out of bounds or something? Still, you feel bad if you're the guy who injured someone like that, especially the kicker, since he's the only player on the field who's a regular guy and everyone else is a badass. It reminds me of one time in youth soccer when we were kicking the other team's ass, and I tried to pull off some crazy bicycle kick, and instead kicked their goalie right in the face. I mean, there was nothing really WRONG about it, but people were pissed.

Haha! Yeah, I see your point. The dude was in the wrong place at the wrong time!


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[Count Steeler]

Punter is fair game. Unlike a QB on an INT return, a rule I don't agree with. I feel bad for the punter and the end result, but that is the kind of play I want on my team. Hit and hit hard. Win the physical battles.

[stillers4me]

Would anybody else care if it were our punter?

I didn't know Hines was playing special teams.

[TheRuneMeister]

This SHOULD be a legal hit since the punter is on the field and blocking like everyone else and is not does not have anything on his uniform to distinguish him from other players. It is however NOT a legal hit since the punter is a defenseless player.
Personally, this is why I like football. The margin of error is small, and if you make a mistake (like a punter engaging players without being aware of his surroundings) you pay the price.

It was brutal...that was kind of the point.

[stillers4me]

412409910606184449

[GoSlash27]

Hell yeah I'm cool with it. That guy was standing between us and our touchdown.
I have no interest in injuring people, but it's bound to happen from time to time.

[fansince'76]

412409910606184449

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Would anybody else care if it were our punter?

And this.

Oh, and color me amazed that the return wasn't nullified by a block in the back call clear over on the other side of the field.

[tube517]

Poll is not valid without the missing choice on every SU poll....

[X-Terminator]

Poll is not valid without the missing choice on every SU poll....

It's now valid. :heh:

BTW, I don't have a single problem with the punter getting wasted. Just like in hockey...keep your head up, kid!

[Devilsdancefloor]

that was a awesome block, sadly it broke his jaw, but he know WTF he is doing out there

[SteelerFanInStl]

I'm already dealing with a Bengals fan on another forum crying about that hit and saying that it was a cheap shot and illegal. These idiots don't have a clue about what the actual rules are. They just like to cry.

The punter shouldn't be 'defenseless'. I see punters make tackles all the time. They're part of the play and should expect to get hit just like the rest of the guys out there. His problem was that he wasn't watching in front of him and he got tagged. If you can't hit them, they shouldn't be allowed to make a tackle.

[Shoes]

Its football or whats's left of it.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I see that PFT now has an article up crying that a flag should have been thrown.

It figures that the Steelers come out and kick their asses and all anyone talks about is this hit.

[fansince'76]

I see that PFT now has an article up crying that a flag should have been thrown.

It figures that the Steelers come out and kick their asses and all anyone talks about is this hit.

Yeah, that figures.

WAAAHHH! DA STEALERS ARE DURRTY! WAAAHHH! WAAAHHH! WAAAHHH!

:coffee:

[salamander]

Yeah, that figures.

WAAAHHH! DA STEALERS ARE DURRTY! WAAAHHH! WAAAHHH! WAAAHHH!

:coffee:

DA STEALERS PAY DA REFS!! :chuckle:

[Craic]

Legal hit. He was in the play. Reminds me however, why I used to like Hockey better than football (back when Hockey wasn't turned into basketball on ice). There was always an unwritten rule that you didn't unload on a smaller/lesser skilled player unless that guy was actually handling the puck and a threat to score.

Oh, and a "protected player" only means that he cannot be hit in the head or neck area by a helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, can't be speared, and can't be launched at. So nothing to see here. (Rule 12, Section 12 Article 7b).

[Steelman]

It happened so fast I didn't know who got hit, but man did Garvin ever rip him a new one. It reminded me of when Hines knocked Rivers' jaw out too. (Sorry Bungles!)

It looked like a clean hit to me, can't say I disagree with it at all. The punter was there ready to slow the runner down and was promptly taken out of the play.

[st33lersguy]

If it were Teniis or Soccer, then I would have a problem with it, but it is football.

[Lambert_Loonie]

I know I'm in the minority, but I didn't like it at all. Kickers aren't even real football players for God's sakes. Shoving the guy on his ass would've worked just fine. :P

[Dwinsgames]

my response is ,

That's football and its inherited risks , if the risk is to large don't play the game .... but remember this is why you get paid the big bucks for " Playing a game"

Members of our ( and every ) Armed forces across the globe risk more by being a member of those services and are not awarded nearly as much to put it in perspective ......

back on point , its football and it is a collision sport and when you go on the road don't forget to pack your balls

[Moose]

I voted HELL YES ! Welcome to the NFL Huber. When you are on the field keep you head on a swivel, as they say, or you'll find it up your ass. It's Steeler football....I love it. I watched it a few times and it still looks like Garvin came in with his right shoulder. Great hit ! In my book Punter's and QBs should wear pink uniforms anyway.

[zulater]

Yeah I couldn't believe that whining article at PFT complaining how that was an illegal play by the Steelers. If that's true then the kicker has no more business on the field after the kick is delivered than Mike Tomlin. Maybe they should turtle in place after getting off the kick, or better yet run backwards until they're safely in the end zone behind them. :sarcasm:

Fucking ridiculous that this is even a topic.. :doh:

By the way anyone remember some of the blistering hits Sepulvada delivered on coverage? I think Danny would be insulted if you suggested to him that he couldn't be blocked hard on an attempted return.

[Shoes]

my response is ,

That's football and its inherited risks , if the risk is to large don't play the game .... but remember this is why you get paid the big bucks for " Playing a game"

Members of our ( and every ) Armed forces across the globe risk more by being a member of those services and are not awarded nearly as much to put it in perspective ......

back on point , its football and it is a collision sport and when you go on the road don't forget to pack your balls

......and with Cody Wallace on our team you won't have them long. :chuckle:

[steelreserve]

Poll is not valid without the missing choice on every SU poll....


It's now valid. :heh:

Oh, man. I completely dropped the ball on that. I fully expect a fine.

[tube517]

Oh, man. I completely dropped the ball on that. I fully expect a fine.

Cody Wallace is on his way

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk

[bong477]

Part of me felt bad for the punter, the other part of me felt like if we played like that all season be looking at much different picture for Jan.

[Texasteel]

As soon as the ball is kicked, the man is no longer a kicker, he becomes a tackler. I don't like players that intentionally hurt, or try to hurt another player, but I don't think this was the case. It was a good and legal block on a player that was trying to make a tackle. I feel bad the guy was hurt, but saying we have to have different rules for the kickers on the field would be extending the Brady rule to other players. Of course this hit would never be placed on Brady, the guy would have chase him down from behind as he headed toward the sideline.

[Dwinsgames]

[/B]

......and with Cody Wallace on our team you won't have them long. :chuckle:

Lmao

http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/rofl.gif

[steelreserve]

Cody Wallace is on his way

Dude ... dude. Now I'm frightened. I guess the punter isn't the only one who needs his head on a swivel now.

[Texasteel]

Cody Wallace is on his way

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk


I still don't know why Cody got fined. I know guys in California that pay for that sort of thing.

[Dwinsgames]

I still don't know why Cody got fined. I know guys in California that pay for that sort of thing.

lol that's just foul ( clearly on many levels )

- - - Updated - - -

as a side note had Wallace saved that move for next week , it would not have been a fine , they can use all the fudgepackers they can get up in Green Bay and probably would pony up a first round pick for Cody

[steelreserve]

As soon as the ball is kicked, the man is no longer a kicker, he becomes a tackler. I don't like players that intentionally hurt, or try to hurt another player, but I don't think this was the case. It was a good and legal block on a player that was trying to make a tackle. I feel bad the guy was hurt, but saying we have to have different rules for the kickers on the field would be extending the Brady rule to other players. Of course this hit would never be placed on Brady, the guy would have chase him down from behind as he headed toward the sideline.

People can't seem to make up their minds on that. Half the people you see leaving comments like, "OMG the kicker is a defenseless player, you shouldn't be able to hit him" and half say (correctly IMO) "There are already so many rules about tackling, and it already happens too fast to adjust to, so now you're also telling guys that in that split-second, they also have to identify which position the guy they're trying to block plays, and let up accordingly? Get real."

I really think that if they wanted to have special rules about the kicker for any time other than when he's actually kicking the ball, the only way they could possibly make it work is by having kickers wear different-colored uniforms like soccer goalies. I still think that would be BS - if you can't be blocked, you shouldn't be allowed to make a tackle either. You want to be involved in the play, you do so at your own risk.

[fansince'76]

Don't want the punter to get hit? Then he needs to get the hell off the field immediately after he kicks the ball.

[Dwinsgames]

Don't want the punter to get hit? Then he needs to get the hell off the field immediately after he kicks the ball.

this....

some say he is not a real football player , if that is the case why is he trying to block like one ?

some say he should be protected ? again why is he trying to block ?

if he is going to block ( or try to ) then he is and should be fair game to be blocked as well or the receiving team would be at a competitive disadvantage by way of the opponent having a " free man in play" who can hurt your chances at a return but can not be neutralized .....

[steelreserve]

this....

some say he is not a real football player , if that is the case why is he trying to block like one ?

some say he should be protected ? again why is he trying to block ?

if he is going to block ( or try to ) then he is and should be fair game to be blocked as well or the receiving team would be at a competitive disadvantage by way of the opponent having a " free man in play" who can hurt your chances at a return but can not be neutralized .....

There's also the option of having a punter who's a badass himself. Although let's face it, that's not going to happen very often. This situation won't come up again very often either. Although I'm 99% certain they're going to try to make up some dumbass rule about it in the offseason, and it will come back and wipe out a super-important return TD on a questionable call next season. Maybe it'll even lead to kickers "flopping" during the play, not just the kick itself. Book it.

[tube517]

Why does the punter wear a helmet and pads. Just put his ass in sweats from the Duce Staley collection

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[Texasteel]

People can't seem to make up their minds on that. Half the people you see leaving comments like, "OMG the kicker is a defenseless player, you shouldn't be able to hit him" and half say (correctly IMO) "There are already so many rules about tackling, and it already happens too fast to adjust to, so now you're also telling guys that in that split-second, they also have to identify which position the guy they're trying to block plays, and let up accordingly? Get real."

I really think that if they wanted to have special rules about the kicker for any time other than when he's actually kicking the ball, the only way they could possibly make it work is by having kickers wear different-colored uniforms like soccer goalies. I still think that would be BS - if you can't be blocked, you shouldn't be allowed to make a tackle either. You want to be involved in the play, you do so at your own risk.


Defenseless player. First off, I know you don't agree with that.

To call a kicker a defenseless player is not only totally wrong, but shows a complete lack of a football IQ. ( A group, by the way that has been increasing since Goodell has taken total control.) Why is he a defenseless player?

Because he is not as big as most of the other players? Then logically it should be illegal for a lineman to block a DB. A LBer should only be able to tackle a RB with his hands, if any part of his body touches the RB it is unnecessary roughness. Any WR that is covered by a shorter defender should not be allowed to catch a ball above his head . A TE that is covered by a safety should be disqualified.

Because he does not work on tackling? That is a coaching problem, and the coaching staff should be fined.

Because he is not as talented, football wise? Then any player playing against a less talented play should be penalized.

This is what our football is coming to. Special rules, for special players. THANK YOU MR. GODELL.

Yes, I know this is all ridiculous, but so is calling a kicker a defenseless player.

[zulater]

Maybe I'm missing it? But it looks as if PFT withdrew their stupid illegal play story on the block on Huber.

Oops, found it. Bengal fans are pathetic. Reading the comments they claim the refs gave us the game. :doh:

[Steelman]

Maybe I'm missing it? But it looks as if PFT withdrew their stupid illegal play story on the block on Huber.

Maybe they actually watched the replay instead of Twitter.

[st33lersguy]

Part of me felt bad for the punter, the other part of me felt like if we played like that all season be looking at much different picture for Jan.

We probably would have been the ones with the opportunity to take hold of the no. 2 seed or even the no. 1 seed

[steelreserve]

Defenseless player. First off, I know you don't agree with that.

To call a kicker a defenseless player is not only totally wrong, but shows a complete lack of a football IQ. ( A group, by the way that has been increasing since Goodell has taken total control.) Why is he a defenseless player?

Because he is not as big as most of the other players? Then logically it should be illegal for a lineman to block a DB. A LBer should only be able to tackle a RB with his hands, if any part of his body touches the RB it is unnecessary roughness. Any WR that is covered by a shorter defender should not be allowed to catch a ball above his head . A TE that is covered by a safety should be disqualified.

Because he does not work on tackling? That is a coaching problem, and the coaching staff should be fined.

Because he is not as talented, football wise? Then any player playing against a less talented play should be penalized.

This is what our football is coming to. Special rules, for special players. THANK YOU MR. GODELL.

Yes, I know this is all ridiculous, but so is calling a kicker a defenseless player.


Yup, you've hit the nail right on the head. It all started with the fact that they expanded the definition of a "defenseless" player to include WRs making a catch. Then they had the Brady Rule, and the Carson Palmer Rule, and then added then defensive players with the Hines Ward Rule, then QBs on turnovers, then all offensive players on turnovers, then all kinds of players on kick returns, etc. They basically add one or two more classes of "protected players" every offseason, and now people just accept it because they've forgotten that they used to know any better.

In my mind, the only truly "defenseless players" are punters and kickers WHILE ACTUALLY KICKING THE BALL, and the long snapper right at the moment of the snap, and even then only if you try to take a real cheap shot. Beyond that, you should never assume that you're not going to take a hit, and in fact, you'd do well to account for that possibility while going to make a play.

The only thing that would be a question for me - completely separate from whether it's legal or not, which is not a question IMO - is whether destroying the punter goes a little too far in some unwritten athletes' sense of fairness, like running over the catcher in a baseball game if you don't need to. Personally, if I was the guy making the hit, I'd feel bad later about jacking up the punter if I could've just blocked him. On the other hand, if it all just happened too fast to think about, then you know, shit happens.

[slippy]

it's unfortunate for him that he has to deal with a broken jaw.

that said, i'm all for putting the punter on the bench for the rest of the game with a tough legal hit. it didn't really impact last nights game, but making a team work without a punter (or longsnapper for that matter ...) is a major advantage.

reminded me of when james harrison concussed josh cribbs in the first quarter a few years back. that put an end to the wildcat package for the browns in that game.

[ALLD]

Dude is going to be eating through straw for awhile.

[Craic]

I'm just wondering . . . without looking it up, can anyone here say what it actually means to be a defenseless player when it comes to hitting/tackling? (and without looking at my earlier post?) I mean, the way some of these posts read, it sounds like some people think that "defenseless player" equals "untouchable."

It doesn't.

[stillers4me]

It's all I heard about all day. :binky:

[SteelerFanInStl]

I'm just wondering . . . without looking it up, can anyone here say what it actually means to be a defenseless player when it comes to hitting/tackling? (and without looking at my earlier post?) I mean, the way some of these posts read, it sounds like some people think that "defenseless player" equals "untouchable."

It doesn't.

Hits to the head and neck area are illegal, just like every other "defenseless" player.

[Craic]

Hits to the head and neck area are illegal, just like every other "defenseless" player.

That's part of it. So, I'm not getting how some are posting almost as if a defenseless player is untouchable. Personally, I had no problem with the hit. Do I think it was a bit excessive? Yeah. But that's the hockey player in me from way back. In my day, on the ice, that would've caused a line-brawl. But nevertheless, dirty, it wasn't.

[Butch]

I don't have a problem with the hit, to bad the guy got hurt the way he did, but that's football and nobody put a gun to his head to force him to play.

For those who ask how we would feel if it was the other way around I got one for you.

How po'ed would you be if the guy wiffs on the block and the punter knocks the ball out and recovers it?

[Dwinsgames]

part of the problem is some people ( not pointing fingers here specifically but all over the net , sportswriters included ) are misinterpreting the rules on kickers , they see the word defenseless player and assume they are deemed that way through the entire play when they are not , they are considered defenseless when in the act of kicking not when they are running down the field eyeing up the returner and looking to make a tackle or at least divert the return man towards a potential tackler , at that point they are NOT considered a defenseless player they are just a player ......

you can hit them , you can pummel them , you can obliterate them as long as you do so according to the rules that pertain to any other player on the field at that time they have no specialized rules for kickers or punters after the kicking motion is over with ....

I expect to see a fine , but not for hitting the punter , but for hitting him in the head / neck area with the helmet , that is against the rules , some say he should have hit him in the chest ..... well maybe so , but had he done so I doubt it changes anything other than the injury incurred it was a solid hit made with leverage and punters do not wear the same pads as the rest of the players a hit to the chest could have been just as devastating and broken ribs / sternum injury just as likely IMO ....

its football hard tough hits are going to happen , logistics of those hits often times will not matter in terms to having an injury or not having one especially with guys not as equipped to take those hits from a pad perspective and a physical stature perspective ....

football is not a contact sport , it is a collision sport and everything happens in a blink of an eye ..the sooner the powers that be come to realize this the better the game will be for it ... you can not legislate hitting any more than you can legislate against stupid

[SteelerFanInStl]

part of the problem is some people ( not pointing fingers here specifically but all over the net , sportswriters included ) are misinterpreting the rules on kickers , they see the word defenseless player and assume they are deemed that way through the entire play when they are not , they are considered defenseless when in the act of kicking not when they are running down the field eyeing up the returner and looking to make a tackle or at least divert the return man towards a potential tackler , at that point they are NOT considered a defenseless player they are just a player ......

Yep, that's a big reason for all of the idiocy.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Anybody know the actual rule number on this? I'm trying to shut up some idiot Bengal fans on another forum.

[GoSlash27]

If you're trying to make a tackle, you're fair game. Ain't no such thing as a "defenseless player" under those circumstances. Even a QB is open to getting ear-holed in that situation. You either get out of the way, keep your head on a swivel, or suffer the consequences.

[Dwinsgames]

Anybody know the actual rule number on this? I'm trying to shut up some idiot Bengal fans on another forum.


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/18167031/new-rule-on-crackback-blocks-adds-defenders-to-defenseless-players


It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player in a defenseless position. For example, a player in a defenseless position can be a receiver in the act of catching a pass, a quarterback completing his throwing motion in the pocket, a punter completing a punt, or a kicker finishing a kick.

that punt had long been finished and he was now a defender

[SteelerFanInStl]

In searching for the actual NFL rule I'm finding all kinds of idiots posting about this and crying about how the Bengals were shafted by the officials. This is exactly why the NFL is headed in the direction that it's heading. The idiot fans want to get rid of the hitting and have teams just playing pass and catch all up and down the field for fantasy scores. It's pathetic!

[Dwinsgames]

In searching for the actual NFL rule I'm finding all kinds of idiots posting about this and crying about how the Bengals were shafted by the officials. This is exactly why the NFL is headed in the direction that it's heading. The idiot fans want to get rid of the hitting and have teams just playing pass and catch all up and down the field for fantasy scores. It's pathetic!

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook

[TheRuneMeister]

I'm not saying yould SHOULD be wrong in regards to the rules Dwinsgames, but you are. The quote you posted relates to defenseless position, not what constitutes a defenseless player. A hit to head to the head or neck area of punter during the return is by rule regarded as a hit on a defenseless player.
The rule is terrible, but that doesn't mean you won't be penalized for breaking it.

[SteelerFanInStl]

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook

Thanks!

Here's what the rules say about "defenseless players"

(6) A kicker/punter during the kick or during the return (Also see Article 6(g) for additional restrictions against a
kicker/punter);
(7) A quarterback at any time after a change of possession (Also see Article 8(f) for additional restrictions against a
quarterback after a change of possession);

Those two are pathetic. How can you make such a rule without giving the defense an easy way to identify these players?

- - - Updated - - -

Here's the whole article:

Article 7: Players in a Defenseless Posture. It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player who is in
a defenseless posture.
(a) Players in a defenseless posture are:
OFFICIAL NFL PLAYING RULES 67 RULE 12, SECTION 2, ARTICLE 4

(1) A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass;
(2) A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or
has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending
contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player;
(3) A runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped;
(4) A kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air;
(5) A player on the ground;
(6) A kicker/punter during the kick or during the return (Also see Article 6(g) for additional restrictions against a
kicker/punter);
(7) A quarterback at any time after a change of possession (Also see Article 8(f) for additional restrictions against a
quarterback after a change of possession);
(8) A player who receives a ―blindside‖ block when the offensive blocker is moving toward or parallel to his own end
line and approaches the opponent from behind or from the side, and
(9) A player who is protected from an illegal crackback block (see Article 2);
(10) The offensive player who attempts a snap during a Field Goal attempt or a Try Kick.
(b) Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:
(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, even
if the initial contact of the defender’s helmet or facemask is lower than the passer’s neck, and regardless of
whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him;
or
(2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/‖hairline‖ parts of the helmet
against any part of the defenseless player’s body; or
(3) Illegally launching into a defenseless opponent. It is an illegal launch if a player (i) leaves both feet prior to
contact to spring forward and upward into his opponent, and (ii) uses any part of his helmet (including the
top/crown and forehead/‖hairline‖ parts) to initiate forcible contact against any part of his opponent’s body. Note:
This does not apply to contact against a runner, unless the runner is still considered to be a defenseless player,
as defined in Article 7 above.
Note1: The provisions of (2) do not prohibit incidental contact by the mask or helmet in the course of a conventional tackle or
block on an opponent.
Note 2: A player who initiates contact against a defenseless opponent is responsible for avoiding an illegal act. This includes
illegal contact that may occur during the process of attempting to dislodge the ball from an opponent. A standard of strict
liability applies for any contact against a defenseless opponent, even if the opponent is an airborne player who is returning
to the ground or whose body position is otherwise in motion, and irrespective of any acts by the defenseless opponent,
such as ducking his head or curling up his body in anticipation of contact.

[Dwinsgames]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2013%20-%20Rule%20Book.pdf

- - - Updated - - -


I'm not saying yould SHOULD be wrong in regards to the rules Dwinsgames, but you are. The quote you posted relates to defenseless position, not what constitutes a defenseless player. A hit to head to the head or neck area of punter during the return is by rule regarded as a hit on a defenseless player.
The rule is terrible, but that doesn't mean you won't be penalized for breaking it.


basically one in the same . you are a defenseless player if you are in a defenseless pos. and that is what the rule means

[Spike]

it's all good


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONBU1uFXim8

[blackngldblood]

In searching for the actual NFL rule I'm finding all kinds of idiots posting about this and crying about how the Bengals were shafted by the officials. This is exactly why the NFL is headed in the direction that it's heading. The idiot fans want to get rid of the hitting and have teams just playing pass and catch all up and down the field for fantasy scores. It's pathetic!

Oh yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. You try to talk defense to some fans and you may as we'll be telling them the holocaust didn't happen judging by their reaction.

As for me, I always have and always will be a defensive minded football fan. If you don't want to be smashed by a rather large linebacker, kick rocks and go get a desk job....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[stillers4me]

412779539170078721

[GBMelBlount]

Just so you know, I'm not endorsing any one answer on this. Let's just say I understand both sides of it. I've been involved in a handful of sports plays like that, on either side (though thankfully I was never the one actually getting injured, only teammates), and I'm sure neither of the players involved felt great about it. I mean apart from the fact that we scored a touchdown. There's no doubt in my mind that it was a legal hit within the rules, but man, did the guy get messed up.

Stuff happens. While unfortunate you have to be prepared.

If you kicked the goalie in the face I am assuming he was moving toward the ball and into your bicycle kick. Ouch!

...and "Brady is Gay" got my vote. LOL

[steelreserve]

Well, it sounds like Tomlin is expecting him to get some sort of discipline from the league ...

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/12/tomlin-garvins-block-huber-is-not-what-they-are-looking-for/

Having seen this dissected to death over the past couple days, my guess is a fine is almost certain. I really don't think kickers should be a special "protected class" when they are involved in the coverage, but at least from what I can see, it looks like they are. Also, while I seriously doubt Garvin was deliberately attempting to smash him in the jaw, it's pretty hard to argue he didn't make contact there.

What it amounts to is another fine for an unlucky outcome to a play, just like the other dozen or so fines for "leading with the helmet" or "illegal hit on a defenseless player" every week. As usual, it will teach nobody anything. At this point, if anyone thinks players are out there deliberately trying to cause serious injuries and make dangerous plays - seriously, they have got to be completely retarded.

[steel striker]

It's football and, like many others of mentioned keep your head. Atleast the guy got up and, jogged off the field on his own power.

[Dwinsgames]

412779539170078721


hats off to him for having a sense of humor

[vader29]

NFL confirms flag should have been thrown on block that injured Kevin Huber

Mike Florio explained earlier on Tuesday that Steelers linebacker Terence Garvin should have been penalized for the helmet-to-helmet block that ended Bengals punter Kevin Huber’s season even though Huber was trying to make a tackle on the play.

Now NFL vice president of officiating Dean Blandino has confirmed it. During an appearance on NFL Network on Tuesday, Blandino said that Huber was considered a defenseless player on the play under the league’s rules and that the NFL wants to “flag hits like that” with 15-yard personal fouls.

“Huber, he’s a punter. And the key is he’s defenseless throughout the down,” Blandino said. “So even though he’s pursing the play, he still gets defenseless-player protection. You can’t hit him in the head or neck, and you can’t use the crown or forehead parts of the helmet to the body.”

In other words, Garvin should expect to hear from league about a fine.

Huber broke his jaw and cracked vertebrae in his neck on the hit and was place on injured reserve on Tuesday. Blandino said that hits like that on punters would be a “point of emphasis” with officials this week.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/12/17/nfl-says-flag-should-have-been-thrown-on-block-that-injured-kevin-huber/


“Huber, he’s a punter. And the key is he’s defenseless throughout the down,”

How about just revising the rule where the punter just punts the ball, and then makes a beeline to the sideline to get his ass the fuck off the field as fast as he can and therefore avoids any chance of injury by contact.

:jerkit:

[SteelerFanInStl]

I'm still trying to figure out how the Hell the returning team players are supposed to be able to look at an opposing player and automatically know that he's the kicker/punter? It's not always obvious. If they're going to have such a stupid rule in place, at least make the kicker/punter wear a different color jersey so that they can be quickly identified.

It's shit like this that continues to reduce my enjoyment and fandom to the NFL.

[7SteelGal43]

The Patriots* suck and Tom Brady swallows.

[Psycho Ward 86]

hats off to him for having a sense of humor

here's the avatar: http://images.thepostgame.com/sites/default/files/kevin-huber-avatar400.jpg

believe it or not, this was his avatar from before :lol: http://images.thepostgame.com/sites/default/files/kevin-huber-avatar4002.jpg

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/mvt-most-valuable-tweeters/201312/bengals-punter-mocks-self-new-twitter-avatar

[GoSlash27]

I didn't know he also had a cracked vertebrae. That could've been really really bad.

[Dwinsgames]

I didn't know he also had a cracked vertebrae. That could've been really really bad.

they said that was an old injury and not related to the latest hit /shrug

[Texasteel]

I'm still trying to figure out how the Hell the returning team players are supposed to be able to look at an opposing player and automatically know that he's the kicker/punter? It's not always obvious. If they're going to have such a stupid rule in place, at least make the kicker/punter wear a different color jersey so that they can be quickly identified.

It's shit like this that continues to reduce my enjoyment and fandom to the NFL.

I think your suppose to stop, shake his hand politely, and ask his name and position, check his photo ID, then ask for permission to block him.

[Seven]

412779539170078721

That's awesome. Good for him.

[stillers4me]

I think your suppose to stop, shake his hand politely, and ask his name and position, check his photo ID, then ask for permission to block him.

You beat me to it, Ed!

[SteelerFanInStl]

they said that was an old injury and not related to the latest hit /shrug

I read that yesterday also. The Bengals said that it was a pre-existing injury. Now I can't find the article. They probably pulled it to get more sympathy.

I did find this article on nfl.com where they say the following:


The test results show a crack, but the current belief is that it's an old hairline fracture, not something caused by Garvin's hit.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000299582/article/huber-to-ir-may-have-cracked-vertebrae-on-garvin-hit

Why don't any of the other million articles written about this hit disclose this information?

[GoSlash27]

I think your suppose to stop, shake his hand politely, and ask his name and position, check his photo ID, then ask for permission to block him.

FWIW I agree with you folks. If people are going to be considered "defenseless" even while trying to tackle the ball- carrier, they need to be clearly marked as such. Maybe with neon pink tutus.

[one side only]

Distinctive colored jerseys will be the next. Punters, kickers and long snappers will wear a different color, just like the goalkeeper in soccer. It should be pink, considering the direction the league has been going.

[Hawkman]

Distinctive colored jerseys will be the next. Punters, kickers and long snappers will wear a different color, just like the goalkeeper in soccer. It should be pink, considering the direction the league has been going.

Don't know about long snapper, Warren's been in on a lot of tackles.

[salamander]

Anything to make those big bad Steelers look even worse.

[steelreserve]

Distinctive colored jerseys will be the next. Punters, kickers and long snappers will wear a different color, just like the goalkeeper in soccer. It should be pink, considering the direction the league has been going.

But ... then what would they do for breast cancer month?

[salamander]

Just reaffirming what was already said.

CINCINNATI -- The hit by a Pittsburgh return team blocker that ended Cincinnati Bengals (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/cin/cincinnati-bengals) punter Kevin Huber (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/12669/kevin-huber)'s season was an illegal one, Dean Blandino, the NFL's head of officials, said Tuesday night.

The announcement confirmed what many had speculated since watching the violent play unfold in the first quarter of Sunday night's game between the Bengals and Pittsburgh Steelers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/pit/pittsburgh-steelers).

more: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10155375/dean-blandino-head-nfl-officials-says-hit-kevin-huber-was-illegal

The poor widdle punter got hurt by the big bad Stealers. :cry02:

[Steelman]

That ESPN story was so anti-Steelers. But what else is new.

[vader29]

Garvin got hit with a $25,000 fine.

[steelreserve]

Well, apparently the only one not up in arms about it is the punter himself:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10158504/kevin-huber-cincinnati-bengals-not-upset-hit-terence-garvin-pittsburgh-steelers

Much as I dislike giving credit to a rival team, you have to take you hat off to the guy for handling things this well. Most players (and fans) would be doing nothing but bitching and moaning if they were in his shoes. Hell, I don't know how well I'd be handling it myself if I was the one with messed up teeth and a broken jaw .. it's one thing to watch it happen to someone, but another thing entirely to have to go through it yourself.

[Hawkman]

Well, apparently the only one not up in arms about it is the punter himself:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10158504/kevin-huber-cincinnati-bengals-not-upset-hit-terence-garvin-pittsburgh-steelers

Much as I dislike giving credit to a rival team, you have to take you hat off to the guy for handling things this well. Most players (and fans) would be doing nothing but bitching and moaning if they were in his shoes. Hell, I don't know how well I'd be handling it myself if I was the one with messed up teeth and a broken jaw .. it's one thing to watch it happen to someone, but another thing entirely to have to go through it yourself.

Nice rant by Golic.

[Spike]

$25,000: Pretty steep for a rookie - the Rooney's should pay that

[TheRuneMeister]

$25,000: Pretty steep for a rookie - the Rooney's should pay that
That is why they put in certain protections in the CBA. An appeal will reduce it to 25% of his salary for the given week. If there were no protections like that you could bankrupt free agent rookies in weeks. The amount is just symbolic.

[TheRuneMeister]

That is why they put in certain protections in the CBA. An appeal will reduce it to 25% of his salary for the given week. If there were no protections like that you could bankrupt free agent rookies in weeks. The amount is just symbolic.


http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2013%20-%20Rule%20Book.pdf

- - - Updated - - -




basically one in the same . you are a defenseless player if you are in a defenseless pos. and that is what the rule means
No. Two different rules. Not one in the same. You posted the rule to prove that the punter was only protected during the kick, and since the rule relates to defensless 'positions' and not 'players' it wasn't really relevant to specific rule that was broken.
a rule was boken...a terrible rule...but everyone that says that a flag should have been thrown are 100% correct.

[Dwinsgames]

No. Two different rules. Not one in the same. You posted the rule to prove that the punter was only protected during the kick, and since the rule relates to defensless 'positions' and not 'players' it wasn't really relevant to specific rule that was broken.
a rule was boken...a terrible rule...but everyone that says that a flag should have been thrown are 100% correct.


show us the rule then ...

because clearly this is just an interpretation
Huber, he’s a punter. And the key is he’s defenseless throughout the down,” Dean Blandino, who supervises NFL officials, told the NFL Network. “So even though he’s pursuing the play, he still gets defenseless-player protection. You can’t hit him in the head or neck, and you can’t use the crown or forehead parts of the helmet to the body.”

[zulater]

So I guess the Steelers should just run the punter on fourth and short from now on. Tackle him at your own peril.

[steelreserve]

So I guess the Steelers should just run the punter on fourth and short from now on. Tackle him at your own peril.

Fourth and short? Hell, why not just run the punter on first down? You get four chances for a personal foul penalty and a new set of downs.

For that matter, why not list Bell as a punter. Or every offensive skill player on the team.

[Dwinsgames]

So I guess the Steelers should just run the punter on fourth and short from now on. Tackle him at your own peril.


I said the same thing earlier 4th and 5 of less run the punter !!

[GBMelBlount]

Fourth and short? Hell, why not just run the punter on first down? You get four chances for a personal foul penalty and a new set of downs.

For that matter, why not list Bell as a punter. Or every offensive skill player on the team.

LOL!

Exposing Jackassery at it's finest.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Fourth and short? Hell, why not just run the punter on first down? You get four chances for a personal foul penalty and a new set of downs.

For that matter, why not list Bell as a punter. Or every offensive skill player on the team.

nah, he's never punted. Goodell would flip shit. ben has 5 career punts so he'll pass as one :)

[TheRuneMeister]

show us the rule then ...

because clearly this is just an interpretation
There is no 'interpretation'. Defenseless player: Article 6: "A kicker/punter during the kick or during the return."

[SteelerFanInStl]

After all of the whining and crying about the hit, Florio has now posted an article on PFT talking about the absurdity of the "defenseless punter" rule and is saying that the NFL needs to get rid of it.

DUH! That's what Steeler fans have been saying since it happened.

[steelreserve]

After all of the whining and crying about the hit, Florio has now posted an article on PFT talking about the absurdity of the "defenseless punter" rule and is saying that the NFL needs to get rid of it.

DUH! That's what Steeler fans have been saying since it happened.

You should see the comments on that article. Every other one is from some idiot saying "OMG the problem isn't that he blocked the punter ITS THAT HE LED WITH HIS HELMET!! THATS ALWAYS A PENALTY!!!!"

Last time I checked, the rules didn't say anything about helmet-to-helmet contact on a block, just when trying to tackle certain players. They have it exactly backwards; the only problem is that the block was against the punter.

This is the caliber of the typical NFL fan. Doesn't even know the rules, but gets off on nitpicking every play and screaming about injustice. They should go back to trolling the comments on CNN every time there's a story about racial inequality or government spending. But anyway, that goes a LONG way toward explaining why Goodell is able to do what he does and people still think he's doing a great job. People are dumbfucks who don't know any better.


edit: I went to their site and tried to post a comment about the lack of a helmet-to-helmet rule on blocks, and it was removed within 5 minutes. Nice!

[Dwinsgames]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/cincinnati-bengals/0ap2000000300539/Kevin-Huber-talks-about-injury-in-neck-brace

watch the video here , seems like the media could take a lesson from him ( so should the league )

[TheRuneMeister]

You should see the comments on that article. Every other one is from some idiot saying "OMG the problem isn't that he blocked the punter ITS THAT HE LED WITH HIS HELMET!! THATS ALWAYS A PENALTY!!!!"

Last time I checked, the rules didn't say anything about helmet-to-helmet contact on a block, just when trying to tackle certain players. They have it exactly backwards; the only problem is that the block was against the punter.

This is the caliber of the typical NFL fan. Doesn't even know the rules, but gets off on nitpicking every play and screaming about injustice. They should go back to trolling the comments on CNN every time there's a story about racial inequality or government spending. But anyway, that goes a LONG way toward explaining why Goodell is able to do what he does and people still think he's doing a great job. People are dumbfucks who don't know any better.


edit: I went to their site and tried to post a comment about the lack of a helmet-to-helmet rule on blocks, and it was removed within 5 minutes. Nice!
Helmet to helmet...leading with the crown of the helmet...on a defenseless player. Had he blocked him violently in the (by rule that is) correct area, it would not be an issue. So all the idiots are basically, or at least somewhat, correct.

[Steelman]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/cincinnati-bengals/0ap2000000300539/Kevin-Huber-talks-about-injury-in-neck-brace

watch the video here , seems like the media could take a lesson from him ( so should the league )

This guy is a class act! :thumbsup:

We should get this guy into a Steelers uniform. He has my respect.

[steelreserve]

Helmet to helmet...leading with the crown of the helmet...on a defenseless player. Had he blocked him violently in the (by rule that is) correct area, it would not be an issue. So all the idiots are basically, or at least somewhat, correct.

The only part of the above that counts is "defenseless player." Yes, in this case, that's what made it against the rules. People for some reason have it in their heads that there's a rule against helmet-to-helmet contact while blocking a regular player, which I'm pretty sure there isn't. But listen to them scream about it.

[steeldawg]

The only part of the above that counts is "defenseless player." Yes, in this case, that's what made it against the rules. People for some reason have it in their heads that there's a rule against helmet-to-helmet contact while blocking a regular player, which I'm pretty sure there isn't. But listen to them scream about it.

I think its only a penalty if its a peel back block towards your own endzone. This play wasn't that it was a block coming across the field so it was perfectly legal. I do however think he could of just engaged the punter instead of decapitating him but hey that's football.

[Dwinsgames]

I think its only a penalty if its a peel back block towards your own endzone. This play wasn't that it was a block coming across the field so it was perfectly legal. I do however think he could of just engaged the punter instead of decapitating him but hey that's football.


can the punter unload on another player ? ( YES ) so he should be fair game too or it is an unfair advantage .....

some will say but man its a punter not even a real football player and to those people I say many NFL Punters are 200 pounds and some punt returners are 160 pounds soak n wet ....

with that in mind should we also then not be able to tackle those returners hard ?

at some point it becomes a freaking joke of a game , that point in time is getting very very close


For the record Huber is a 212 pound man
For the record Garvin is a 221 pound man

Trindon Holliday is 5'5" tall ( listed at 170 ) but I guarantee you he isn't 170 pounds with his pads and uniform on after diving into a swimming pool if he is 150 pounds in uniform I would be surprised


http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/0ap2000000252436/WK-4-Can-t-Miss-Play-Home-for-the-Holliday

[SteelerFanInStl]

I think its only a penalty if its a peel back block towards your own endzone. This play wasn't that it was a block coming across the field so it was perfectly legal. I do however think he could of just engaged the punter instead of decapitating him but hey that's football.

No, we've already established that a punter or kicker is considered to be "defenseless" at all times during a play. Any helmet to helmet contact is illegal.

It's a stupid rule and should be thrown out.

[86WARD]

I'm willing to wager that Garvin didn't even know that was the punter. A lot of times these special teams guys are just flying around blocking based on the opposite jersey color. He made a great block that helped spring Brown for a TD. There were two other crushing blocks on that play and neither of those are being spoken about because Garvin destroyed Huber...probably wouldn't even be talk about it if Huber didn't break his mouth...lol.

[stillers4me]

I'm willing to wager that Garvin didn't even know that was the punter. A lot of times these special teams guys are just flying around blocking based on the opposite jersey color. He made a great block that helped spring Brown for a TD. There were two other crushing blocks on that play and neither of those are being spoken about because Garvin destroyed Huber...probably wouldn't even be talk about it if Huber didn't break his mouth...lol.

DING.DING.DING..........Players are now getting fined soley for the results of the play. If Huber hadn't gotten hurt, nobody would even care about it.

[steelerdiva]

Hell yeah I'm cool with it. That guy was standing between us and our touchdown.
I have no interest in injuring people, but it's bound to happen from time to time.

This X1000

[steeldawg]

No, we've already established that a punter or kicker is considered to be "defenseless" at all times during a play. Any helmet to helmet contact is illegal.

It's a stupid rule and should be thrown out.

Huh, ya just read up on it, that's weird it would be different for a kicker in that situation because he is a potential tackler.

[steelreserve]

Huh, ya just read up on it, that's weird it would be different for a kicker in that situation because he is a potential tackler.

Yeah, that's why it's a stupid rule. Gotta go the extra mile to protect kickers from helmet-to-helmet contact, since they're the ones most at risk, right? The old folks' homes are full of retired kickers with brain damage, since they're right there on the front lines getting involved in 40-50 violent collisions every game.

Er -- what I meant was, one or two big hits over the course of your entire career is what's dangerous. Gotta look out for player safety!

Er -- I mean ... wait, what WAS my point anyway?

[SteelMember]

I'm willing to wager that Garvin didn't even know that was the punter. A lot of times these special teams guys are just flying around blocking based on the opposite jersey color. He made a great block that helped spring Brown for a TD. There were two other crushing blocks on that play and neither of those are being spoken about because Garvin destroyed Huber...probably wouldn't even be talk about it if Huber didn't break his mouth...lol.

He did say he slipped initially and was getting back into the play and went for a White jersey. So he may have not know it was the punter... just a guy on the other team. And yes, It was a violent hit, but sorry, Huber has got to scan the field. His eyes were locked in on the returner. Shit like this can happen... to anyone, if you don't stay alert to your surroundings.

[GBMelBlount]

Unless they are wearing breasts or flags they are fair game imo.

http://www.bubblews.com/assets/images/news/1494666268_1380558017.jpg

[steelreserve]

Unless they are wearing breasts or flags they are fair game imo.

http://www.bubblews.com/assets/images/news/1494666268_1380558017.jpg


Now whoever came up with that was AWESOME.

The dong is a little bit frightening, though.

[vader29]

I didn't notice it but Stan Savran mentioned on his radio show yesterday that the Bengals punter wasn't wearing a mouth guard, don't know if that would have prevented his jaw from being broken but at the very least it maybe could have saved his teeth from being knocked out. :noidea:

[GBMelBlount]

I didn't notice it but Stan Savran mentioned on his radio show yesterday that the Bengals punter wasn't wearing a mouth guard, don't know if that would have prevented his jaw from being broken but at the very least it maybe could have saved his teeth from being knocked out. :noidea:

Great point....and I would imagine a good mouthpiece could help keep the jaw in place.

[Dwinsgames]

http://www.nfl.com/2020

[SteelerFanInStl]

I didn't notice it but Stan Savran mentioned on his radio show yesterday that the Bengals punter wasn't wearing a mouth guard, don't know if that would have prevented his jaw from being broken but at the very least it maybe could have saved his teeth from being knocked out. :noidea:

Funny how these details don't get made public. I don't wish for anyone to get injured but if you're not going to wear the safety equipment, then whatever happens to you is your own damn fault.

[stillers4me]

If Huber wasn't wearing the right equipment, then he is the one that should be fined, not Garvin.

[86WARD]

Mouth piece isn't mandatory. How it's not is actually quite crazy...player safety though!

[SteelerFanInStl]

Mouth piece isn't mandatory. How it's not is actually quite crazy...player safety though!

Exactly. The first step in trying to prevent concussions is to make it mandatory to wear a mouth piece. It's just one more thing that shows that the NFL isn't really interested in player safety.

[GBMelBlount]

If Huber wasn't wearing the right equipment, then he is the one that should be fined, not Garvin.

LOL! How freaking true!

This is what happens when you get a bunch of attorneys legislating.

Random rules that are often inconsistent, unfair, have no rhyme or reason and are inconsistently enforced.

[steelreserve]

Mouth piece isn't mandatory. How it's not is actually quite crazy...player safety though!

I could hardly believe that when I read it, but I guess it's not. Apparently the NFLPA is equally to blame in that one, but - man. Come on. This is one of the most basic things to prevent mouth injuries and concussions that's common knowledge in every sport. Gimme a fuckin' break.

[Texasteel]

I just saw the defenseless player on Cincy, force the kick returner out of bounds to save a TD..