Robinson: Steelers all but have to keep Woodley, but what about Worilds?

[stillers4me]

As the Steelers (http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/) begin weighing personnel moves they'll make before next season, one appears to be obvious.

They need to find a way to bring back outside linebacker Jason Worilds, who has become a James Harrison-like sack machine with six sacks in six games and more quarterback hits (18) than the rest of their outside linebackers combined. All this production followed a move to left outside linebacker.

“I think he is emerging and developing like all players should,” coach Mike Tomlin said. “He is healthy, more healthy than he has been in recent years. … Also, I think he's a different, athletic matchup for right tackles. It's probably more of a level playing field with the athleticism of some left tackles in terms of matching his skill set.”

Left side or right, it won't be that easy to bring back Worilds........


Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/5226107-74/steelers-woodley-worilds#ixzz2nYpoSDDS

[Shoes]

How in the hell did this team get into such a mess with Woodley. I'd still dump him and keep Worilds.

[Count Steeler]

Have to try and shop Woodley. If we can get a couple of draft picks, I would make the move. I know the cap hit is going to be miserable, but I'd rather get some younger players and try to develop them. As for Worilds, offer him a reasonable contract. If he walks, we don't have many options. If the cap finally goes up this year, we may have a play for him. If the cap is stagnant, we should try and clear as much cap as we can next year and Worilds will be a casualty.

Keeping the SB window open is going to cost some casualties, unfortunately. However, time to build a new SB contender.

[MrPgh]

They need to dump Woodley. If they have to deal with the dead money, then deal with it. You can't keep a guy around for that much money who's always hurt and has been mediocre at best since signing his new contract.

[fansince'76]

They need to dump Woodley. If they have to deal with the dead money, then deal with it. You can't keep a guy around for that much money who's always hurt and has been mediocre at best since signing his new contract.

Yep. Make him a June 2nd cut and spread the cap hit out over two years. It's time to move on.

[Steeldude]

How in the hell did this team get into such a mess with Woodley. I'd still dump him and keep Worilds.

Because they are idiots. It's the same foolish crap they did with Kordell Stewart. The coaches and many fans were enamored by some sacks. I said many years ago this guy is not worth that kind of money. He is a product of the system. I have never been impressed by Woodley and his lack of hustle. That's right, hustle.

[zulater]

Have to try and shop Woodley. If we can get a couple of draft picks, I would make the move. I know the cap hit is going to be miserable, but I'd rather get some younger players and try to develop them. As for Worilds, offer him a reasonable contract. If he walks, we don't have many options. If the cap finally goes up this year, we may have a play for him. If the cap is stagnant, we should try and clear as much cap as we can next year and Worilds will be a casualty.

Keeping the SB window open is going to cost some casualties, unfortunately. However, time to build a new SB contender.

If we could get a deflated football and bag of kicking tee's for him it would be a minor miracle.

- - - Updated - - -


Because they are idiots. It's the same foolish crap they did with Kordell Stewart. The coaches and many fans were enamored by some sacks. I said many years ago this guy is not worth that kind of money. He is a product of the system. I have never been impressed by Woodley and his lack of hustle. That's right, hustle.

He hasn't been the same player since he popped his hammy in the first half of the Patriots game in 11.

[Dwinsgames]

I keep him ...

sorry I would not let him go and take the cap hit to then have to pay someone else to take his roster spot and cost more against the cap ...

even if I bench him and play someone else ahead of him he would certainly be of more $ per $ worth on the team than off of it considering he is getting paid either way

[steeldawg]

Have to try and shop Woodley. If we can get a couple of draft picks, I would make the move. I know the cap hit is going to be miserable, but I'd rather get some younger players and try to develop them. As for Worilds, offer him a reasonable contract. If he walks, we don't have many options. If the cap finally goes up this year, we may have a play for him. If the cap is stagnant, we should try and clear as much cap as we can next year and Worilds will be a casualty.

Keeping the SB window open is going to cost some casualties, unfortunately. However, time to build a new SB contender.

Nobody is going to take that contract we are married to woodley

[blackngldblood]

Nobody is going to take that contract we are married to woodley

It's time to finally start to consider the divorce. No one likes going through it, and it'll be painful, but we are better off without him. Besides, he isn't putting out anymore....


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[Mojouw]

I keep him ...

sorry I would not let him go and take the cap hit to then have to pay someone else to take his roster spot and cost more against the cap ...

even if I bench him and play someone else ahead of him he would certainly be of more $ per $ worth on the team than off of it considering he is getting paid either way

I agree with this. Dumping Woodley is a double whammy. I wouldn't want to take the cap hit and use one of 2014 draft picks to obtain and then develop a replacement.

I say the Steelers should find a way to resign Worilds and play him and Woodley on the outside and Jones and Timmons in the middle. Worked with Chad Brown for several years. No reason to think it could not work again.

If you need cap space to do a deal with Worilds, then get it from Kiesel, Hood, Clark, Taylor, and maybe Polamalu. That way the money isn't "dead".

[steeldawg]

It's time to finally start to consider the divorce. No one likes going through it, and it'll be painful, but we are better off without him. Besides, he isn't putting out anymore....


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Well actually we are better off keeping him, we cant dump him because of the dead money and we cant trade him because nobody wants that contract.

[steelreserve]

If we dump him on June 1, we save money against the cap next year versus his current cap number, then take $7M or so in dead money the following year. I'd take that deal in a second. In a half-second.

[Dwinsgames]

I agree with this. Dumping Woodley is a double whammy. I wouldn't want to take the cap hit and use one of 2014 draft picks to obtain and then develop a replacement.

I say the Steelers should find a way to resign Worilds and play him and Woodley on the outside and Jones and Timmons in the middle. Worked with Chad Brown for several years. No reason to think it could not work again.

If you need cap space to do a deal with Worilds, then get it from Kiesel, Hood, Clark, Taylor, and maybe Polamalu. That way the money isn't "dead".


Hood and Clark provide no relief for 2014 because they are both FA .... it will have to come from Ike and or Troy

[blackngldblood]

Well actually we are better off keeping him, we cant dump him because of the dead money and we cant trade him because nobody wants that contract.

Ugggg. There's only one thing left to do... Somebody call Joe Pesci...


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[oneforthetoe]

I see no reason to get rid of him. He has not been very good for two years, but keep him as a back-up at least. Cutting him will not help you keep Worlds, anyways.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I see no reason to get rid of him. He has not been very good for two years, but keep him as a back-up at least. Cutting him will not help you keep Worlds, anyways.

id rather not have the most expensive back up in the NFL, thanks. Worilds needs to stay. If we keep letting these overpriced, over the hill veterans eat up the entire cap, then losing very good, affordable young players like keenan lewis will become a regular thing

[Hindes204]

Surprise surprise, woodley is hurt again

[Mojouw]

At what point do you have to wonder if Woodley is using something. This seems to be a high frequency of soft tissue and muscle pull injuries. Recently that has typically been a marker of PED use in baseball. I don't really know anything about it, but this guy is pulling muscles walking to work.

[zulater]

I don't care what the cap hit is, Woodley needs to be removed from the roster.

[GBMelBlount]

Ugggg. There's only one thing left to do... Somebody call Joe Pesci...


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:rofl2:

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/6a/6a2b71136bcf88181344acb60b36b49df566bb2fc1866662cf 9b86435a5e66d4.jpg

[blackngldblood]

:rofl2:

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/6a/6a2b71136bcf88181344acb60b36b49df566bb2fc1866662cf 9b86435a5e66d4.jpg

Hahahahahaha! Exactly!


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[blackngldblood]

Oh and by the way, this was the OTHER calf. Give. Me. A. Break......


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[Shoes]

Backup? are you kidding me, backup? Woodley can't stay healthy to backup anything, show him the door.

[oneforthetoe]

id rather not have the most expensive back up in the NFL, thanks. Worilds needs to stay. If we keep letting these overpriced, over the hill veterans eat up the entire cap, then losing very good, affordable young players like keenan lewis will become a regular thing

I'd agree with you 100%. It's just that cutting Woodly isn't going to help us keep Worilds,or anhy other younger player. Here is a question. What are the cap ramifications of keeping Woodly one more year?

[Psycho Ward 86]

At what point do you have to wonder if Woodley is using something. This seems to be a high frequency of soft tissue and muscle pull injuries. Recently that has typically been a marker of PED use in baseball. I don't really know anything about it, but this guy is pulling muscles walking to work.

thats a good point. He does have a proportionally ridiculously big chest, trap, arm area, which ive heard is a sign of HGH use because thats where the greatest percentage of androgen receptors are.

Maybe Woodley is the new shawne merriman. At least merriman was good when he was roiding out lol

[X-Terminator]

thats a good point. He does have a proportionally ridiculously big chest, trap, arm area, which ive heard is a sign of HGH use because thats where the greatest percentage of androgen receptors are.

Maybe Woodley is the new shawne merriman. At least merriman was good when he was roiding out lol

No, I think he's just fat and out of shape. Like always.

Don't care how much dead money he will count against the cap, but his injury-prone and overrated ass needs to be on the street this spring or summer. Enough is enough.

[Psycho Ward 86]

No, I think he's just fat and out of shape. Like always.

Don't care how much dead money he will count against the cap, but his injury-prone and overrated ass needs to be on the street this spring or summer. Enough is enough.

Woodley has weight problems, that part we all know. It definitely tells you he's lazy. People who feel the need to use steroids and/or HGH, hormones and whatever come off to me as lazy too. Sad thing is the possibility that maybe woodley fits the bill under both :lol:

i dont understand the reasoning behind anyone who wants to keep woodley. He cant stay on the field, costs a lot, and is forcing us to lose much more valuable players. Ill take the cap pounding now instead of losing more and more of our younger players over time. Even if it loses us Worilds. Woodley's contract is that bad. I mean seriously, "other calf" injury? I dont want to take injuries lightly especially if they are very real, but that sounds like some albert haynseworth shit to me at this point

[blackngldblood]

You have to imagine that he knows most of us fans want his ass gone, replaced by Worilds. I'm sure he doesn't have a problem loafin around collecting a very large check.


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[blackngldblood]

Did he even make any physical contact in the game tonight? I sure as hell do not remember seeing anything out of him.

Edit to add that I mean before he left in the middle of the first quarter.

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[steelreserve]

I'd agree with you 100%. It's just that cutting Woodly isn't going to help us keep Worilds,or anhy other younger player. Here is a question. What are the cap ramifications of keeping Woodly one more year?

Basically, it's like this: We cut Woodley now, we eat like $15M-$16M in dead money next year. Cut him after June 1, and it's $8M in 2014 and $8M in 2015.

We keep him, we pay about $13.5M, and then about $8M in 2015 if we cut him, probably $16M-$20M if we don't. Don't forget, it's not just the dead money from bonuses if we cut him that we need to worry about; the additional base salary if we keep him is astronomical as well.

Bottom line: As far as I see it, any money we pay Woodley by keeping him on the roster is basically the same as dead money anyway, because he sucks and is always injured. Might as well eat that shit sandwich and get it over with, and that way we won't still be belching it up when we have our opportunity to kiss the hot girl a couple years from now.

[steeldawg]

At what point do you have to wonder if Woodley is using something. This seems to be a high frequency of soft tissue and muscle pull injuries. Recently that has typically been a marker of PED use in baseball. I don't really know anything about it, but this guy is pulling muscles walking to work.

I don't think there is a guy in the nfl not using hgh.

[Shoes]

He can also be a mental drain on the players. Fat cat collecting a big pay check while doing nothing to help the team year after year.

[zulater]

I don't think there is a guy in the nfl not using hgh.


Bull. Somewhere between 20-60% is more likely.

[vader29]

Duce Woodley :chuckle:

http://i41.tinypic.com/1z7m1d.jpg

[tube517]

Duce Woodley :chuckle:

http://i41.tinypic.com/1z7m1d.jpg

:lol:

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[KeiselPower99]

Woodley needs to take a pay cut to an incentive laden deal. Worilds gets a 4 year 30 million deal and the combination of Woodley Worilds and Jones runs wild next year!!!

[stillers4me]

Duce Woodley :chuckle:

http://i41.tinypic.com/1z7m1d.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sueincinci/uahahaha_zps0393992f.gif

[steeldawg]

Woodley needs to take a pay cut to an incentive laden deal. Worilds gets a 4 year 30 million deal and the combination of Woodley Worilds and Jones runs wild next year!!!

I would be shocked if Woodley restructured, the guy is always hurt and he is getting major dollars he knows this deal is his last chance to make big money.

[zulater]

I say cut him in June and take whatever salary cap hit that comes with it. Roster spots have value as well. No sense burning one of those on him again. too

[Seven]

I'm not pointing to anyone in particular, but as a fan base, it's pretty funny to hear everyone loving on Jason Worilds now. All I've heard for the last several years was that we made a major mistake drafting him, should have selected Sean Lee, he's a bust... and now everyone talks about him like he was a no-brainer insertion into the starting lineup. I was called nuts before the season when I suggested Worilds should get his shot over Jarvis Jones. Obviously, he has played much better on the other side of the field, but it's amazing how this guy went from bust to fan favorite in a matter of weeks.

The team needs to keep him. This isn't a cornerback we're talking about, this isn't Keenan Lewis, Worilds is significantly more valuable. For this team to be successful, the pass rush has to be there. He should get a nice contract and the starting left outside linebacker position, no doubt. Whatever it takes in this case, I'm all for. Unlike Wallace and Lewis, this is a guy I think the team needs to keep at any cost.

I wouldn't mind seeing Woodley on the right side of the defense for the remainder of the season, if his injury allows him to play.

[steelreserve]

The Woodley crap is getting ridiculous. People say the dead money is too much to handle, but it's what, either $14M over one season or spread out over two seasons. If we don't dump his ass, we pay him $14M in BOTH seasons. Tell me, which one would you rather pay in exchange for no meaningful production?

As for Worilds, I was really on the bandwagon of calling him a WTF pick. The fact is, he'd had chances and done damn little to impress me over the course of 3 seasons. Now he suddenly seems to "get it," which is a bit unusual and definitely unexpected, but hey, I'll take it.

What I do NOT want to see is us hand him another $10M a year contract because of this. It's been a nice run lately, but let's not forget it's been weeks, not years. There's no guarantee it's going to continue for several seasons. Fact is, the value in Worilds to me is, we need to get rid of Woodley's sorry butt ASAP, and at least here's a guy who can take over and probably not do any worse, and hopefully he can do it for cheaper. If we could get him for something like $4M-$5M, it would make sense, and to me, that's about what his value is. If it would take $7M or $10M, enjoy playing for the Redskins, because paying him that would just be stupid.

Funny thing, I think that's almost the exact same thing I said about Woodley when his rookie contract was up, with the exact same numbers. Who now doesn't wish we'd offered Woodley $5M and if he accepted, great; if he walked, so be it? With both him and Timmons, I really think we were guilty of bidding against ourselves, and probably paid between 150% and double market value. I don't think Woodley was going anywhere if he didn't get $10M, and neither was Timmons. What the fuck? Hopefully, we learn from it and don't make the same mistake again.

[GBMelBlount]

The Woodley crap is getting ridiculous. People say the dead money is too much to handle, but it's what, either $14M over one season or spread out over two seasons. If we don't dump his ass, we pay him $14M in BOTH seasons. Tell me, which one would you rather pay in exchange for no meaningful production?

As for Worilds, I was really on the bandwagon of calling him a WTF pick. The fact is, he'd had chances and done damn little to impress me over the course of 3 seasons. Now he suddenly seems to "get it," which is a bit unusual and definitely unexpected, but hey, I'll take it.

What I do NOT want to see is us hand him another $10M a year contract because of this. It's been a nice run lately, but let's not forget it's been weeks, not years. There's no guarantee it's going to continue for several seasons. Fact is, the value in Worilds to me is, we need to get rid of Woodley's sorry butt ASAP, and at least here's a guy who can take over and probably not do any worse, and hopefully he can do it for cheaper. If we could get him for something like $4M-$5M, it would make sense, and to me, that's about what his value is. If it would take $7M or $10M, enjoy playing for the Redskins, because paying him that would just be stupid.

Funny thing, I think that's almost the exact same thing I said about Woodley when his rookie contract was up, with the exact same numbers. Who now doesn't wish we'd offered Woodley $5M and if he accepted, great; if he walked, so be it? With both him and Timmons, I really think we were guilty of bidding against ourselves, and probably paid between 150% and double market value. I don't think Woodley was going anywhere if he didn't get $10M, and neither was Timmons. What the fuck? Hopefully, we learn from it and don't make the same mistake again.

Great post.

[GBMelBlount]

Have to try and shop Woodley. If we can get a couple of draft picks, I would make the move. I know the cap hit is going to be miserable, but I'd rather get some younger players and try to develop them. As for Worilds, offer him a reasonable contract. If he walks, we don't have many options. If the cap finally goes up this year, we may have a play for him. If the cap is stagnant, we should try and clear as much cap as we can next year and Worilds will be a casualty.

Keeping the SB window open is going to cost some casualties, unfortunately. However, time to build a new SB contender.

It was mentioned that Woodley will cost 14 million in 2015 as well. If that is the case I would shop him out too. Can't see overpaying someone 10 million for 2 years.

Unless he takes a huge pay cut which I cannot imagine happening....

[zulater]

Woodley's out for Sunday and possibly the season.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Woodley's out for Sunday and possibly the season.

id say from a team perspective thats great news. makes it more and more likely that woodley will be cut. And if he isnt, at the very least more likely that he will have to take a steep pay cut. I hope for the 1st one.

[Dwinsgames]

Woodley's out for Sunday and possibly the season.


Woodley checked out when he got paid

[zulater]

Could they pull an Arians on him and announce his retirement at the end of the season? :chuckle:

[vader29]

413036826748661760

413036965957623808

[Mojouw]

So is Woodley maybe not the worst outside linebacker in football?

From Rotoworld: "He finishes 2013 with five sacks and 36 tackles, grading out as the No. 11 3-4 outside linebacker in Pro Football Focus' ratings. Signed through 2016, Woodley is due $8 million in 2014."

[Dwinsgames]

So is Woodley maybe not the worst outside linebacker in football?

From Rotoworld: "He finishes 2013 with five sacks and 36 tackles, grading out as the No. 11 3-4 outside linebacker in Pro Football Focus' ratings. Signed through 2016, Woodley is due $8 million in 2014."


its not his due amount that has so many upset , its the cap hit .... problem is people blame Woodley for this when in fact it is Omar Kahn , Kevin Colbert and the rest of the front office that is to blame

[Mojouw]

Is anyone really to blame? Going into the contract Woodley was posting high level OLB stats. Comparable guys and their contracts:

Suggs - 6 years 62.5 million
Matthews - 6 years 69+ million
Ware - 7 year 75 million dollar contract

All these guys were signed to long-term deals after "outperforming" their original contracts. Ware, Suggs, and Woodley are around the same age, and all got similar deals. In the context of what the market for OLB pass rushers was around the league when the deal was signed -- Woodley's contract was reasonable. It is the injuries and lack of production that make it appear so onerous now. I don't think that anyone would have predicted that a previously healthy and productive player would see such a dramatic dip in performance and health during his "prime" years.

Pass rushers, offensive tackles, and quarterbacks are the premium positions now. Teams are having to pay a ton to get guys signed. And before anyone roles out some cheap pass rusher names out there, guys on capped rookie deals, and never-wases like Victor Butler don't count.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Is anyone really to blame? Going into the contract Woodley was posting high level OLB stats. Comparable guys and their contracts:

Suggs - 6 years 62.5 million
Matthews - 6 years 69+ million
Ware - 7 year 75 million dollar contract

All these guys were signed to long-term deals after "outperforming" their original contracts. Ware, Suggs, and Woodley are around the same age, and all got similar deals. In the context of what the market for OLB pass rushers was around the league when the deal was signed -- Woodley's contract was reasonable. It is the injuries and lack of production that make it appear so onerous now. I don't think that anyone would have predicted that a previously healthy and productive player would see such a dramatic dip in performance and health during his "prime" years.

Pass rushers, offensive tackles, and quarterbacks are the premium positions now. Teams are having to pay a ton to get guys signed. And before anyone roles out some cheap pass rusher names out there, guys on capped rookie deals, and never-wases like Victor Butler don't count.

its the restructures that are making it really bad

[Dwinsgames]

Is anyone really to blame? Going into the contract Woodley was posting high level OLB stats. Comparable guys and their contracts:

Suggs - 6 years 62.5 million
Matthews - 6 years 69+ million
Ware - 7 year 75 million dollar contract

All these guys were signed to long-term deals after "outperforming" their original contracts. Ware, Suggs, and Woodley are around the same age, and all got similar deals. In the context of what the market for OLB pass rushers was around the league when the deal was signed -- Woodley's contract was reasonable. It is the injuries and lack of production that make it appear so onerous now. I don't think that anyone would have predicted that a previously healthy and productive player would see such a dramatic dip in performance and health during his "prime" years.

Pass rushers, offensive tackles, and quarterbacks are the premium positions now. Teams are having to pay a ton to get guys signed. And before anyone roles out some cheap pass rusher names out there, guys on capped rookie deals, and never-wases like Victor Butler don't count.


again I do not think it was as much the contract itself , as the restructures that makes the contract a gag devise when you try and swallow it

[steelreserve]

So is Woodley maybe not the worst outside linebacker in football?

From Rotoworld: "He finishes 2013 with five sacks and 36 tackles, grading out as the No. 11 3-4 outside linebacker in Pro Football Focus' ratings. Signed through 2016, Woodley is due $8 million in 2014."

How many teams are running the 3-4 this season? If it's more than 11, I'd be shocked.



Is anyone really to blame? Going into the contract Woodley was posting high level OLB stats. Comparable guys and their contracts:

Suggs - 6 years 62.5 million
Matthews - 6 years 69+ million
Ware - 7 year 75 million dollar contract

All these guys were signed to long-term deals after "outperforming" their original contracts. Ware, Suggs, and Woodley are around the same age, and all got similar deals. In the context of what the market for OLB pass rushers was around the league when the deal was signed -- Woodley's contract was reasonable. It is the injuries and lack of production that make it appear so onerous now. I don't think that anyone would have predicted that a previously healthy and productive player would see such a dramatic dip in performance and health during his "prime" years.

Pass rushers, offensive tackles, and quarterbacks are the premium positions now. Teams are having to pay a ton to get guys signed. And before anyone roles out some cheap pass rusher names out there, guys on capped rookie deals, and never-wases like Victor Butler don't count.

If the Ravens jumped off a bridge, would you do it too? I'd argue that all of those guys are overpaid for what they do. You cannot, CANNOT pay a linebacker $10M a season, let alone two or three at once, which is what we were/are doing. Unless maybe he's the best all-around at his position in the game, and not limited to pass rushing - a guy like Patrick Willis, for example - and even then, that's pushing it.

At some point, you have to understand that you can afford about two $10M+ contracts on your entire team, one of which is for a franchise QB and the other for your best playmaker. MAYBE you can get away with a third one if it only overlaps for a season. If you've got more guys than that who would be nice to keep, but you're already at that limit? Guess what - yeah, it would be nice, but the salary cap isn't there to accommodate nice-to-have. You've got to make the tough call to let them go, or at least call their bluff. You're going to lose some guys, but fighting it makes it worse.

Pass rushers and WRs have to be some of the most overpaid positions for the value they add to the team. People always used to marvel at how the Steelers would just churn out great outside linebackers like it was easy; one leaves, the next one up is just as good too. You would think that after decades of that, maybe they'd figure out that in our scheme, even a pretty-good OLB is going to have a field day if he has guys like Hampton and Aaron Smith in front of him making his job easier. That's why we used to cycle through LBs without worrying too much or seeing much drop-off. It's not great pass rushing numbers that make our system work; more like great pass rushing numbers are a result of the system working.

Then one day, suddenly we forgot that and became the suckers who overpaid a system player, and by doing so, messed up our own ability to replenish the core guys who made the system work. It amazes me how random pass rushers can get paid a tenth of their team's salary cap for contributing one sack every two games, while guys like Aaron Smith make half that amount. Bad, bad, bad move on our part, and the fact that other teams fucked up too doesn't excuse it. In fact, NOT falling into that exact trap is one of the things that allowed us to stay contenders for so long. Look at our roster now, with what, 6 or 7 guys on $10M contracts, and you'd have to say we look like one of the most foolish spending teams in the league.

[Mojouw]

How many teams are running the 3-4 this season? If it's more than 11, I'd be shocked.




If the Ravens jumped off a bridge, would you do it too? I'd argue that all of those guys are overpaid for what they do. You cannot, CANNOT pay a linebacker $10M a season, let alone two or three at once, which is what we were/are doing. Unless maybe he's the best all-around at his position in the game, and not limited to pass rushing - a guy like Patrick Willis, for example - and even then, that's pushing it.

At some point, you have to understand that you can afford about two $10M+ contracts on your entire team, one of which is for a franchise QB and the other for your best playmaker. MAYBE you can get away with a third one if it only overlaps for a season. If you've got more guys than that who would be nice to keep, but you're already at that limit? Guess what - yeah, it would be nice, but the salary cap isn't there to accommodate nice-to-have. You've got to make the tough call to let them go, or at least call their bluff. You're going to lose some guys, but fighting it makes it worse.

Pass rushers and WRs have to be some of the most overpaid positions for the value they add to the team. People always used to marvel at how the Steelers would just churn out great outside linebackers like it was easy; one leaves, the next one up is just as good too. You would think that after decades of that, maybe they'd figure out that in our scheme, even a pretty-good OLB is going to have a field day if he has guys like Hampton and Aaron Smith in front of him making his job easier. That's why we used to cycle through LBs without worrying too much or seeing much drop-off. It's not great pass rushing numbers that make our system work; more like great pass rushing numbers are a result of the system working.

Then one day, suddenly we forgot that and became the suckers who overpaid a system player, and by doing so, messed up our own ability to replenish the core guys who made the system work. It amazes me how random pass rushers can get paid a tenth of their team's salary cap for contributing one sack every two games, while guys like Aaron Smith make half that amount. Bad, bad, bad move on our part, and the fact that other teams fucked up too doesn't excuse it. In fact, NOT falling into that exact trap is one of the things that allowed us to stay contenders for so long. Look at our roster now, with what, 6 or 7 guys on $10M contracts, and you'd have to say we look like one of the most foolish spending teams in the league.

A rough count has there between 12 and 16 teams playing a 3-4 defense in the league right now. So that is at least 24 OLB and more like 40 when you account for injuries and what not.

Since when is 10 million too much to pay for a pass rusher? No one would blink if a 4-3 team paid a DE that kind of money. In fact Mario Williams just got 6 years 96 million not too long ago. Hali is getting around 11 million per year. If you want sacks, there are two ways to go. Pay a premium to an established pass rusher, or keep rolling the dice on cheap young highly drafted edge players. And yes, these players are getting drafted higher than ever. With between 35-50 percent of the league playing a 3-4 in some mode or another recently, there are no longer "tweener" guys with great speed and pass rush ability slipping deep in the draft. Not saying it doesn't happen, you are simply seeing the prospects go earlier than in the past.

As to simply figuring that the Steelers can plug and play at OLB as long as there is premium talent on the defensive line; that is also false and a bit dated. First, everyone should stop looking for the next Aaron Smith. Smith made plays and put up stats that are simply unheard of for a 3-4 DE. In my mind Smith should get into Canton. I have a hard time coming up with an end in a 3-4 scheme that played it better. But returning to the larger point, the Steelers and Lebeau used to rely on zone blitzes and overloading the blocking scheme to generate pressure. In the past several seasons, counting the two most recent Super Bowl runs, the team has instead relied on generating pressure from mostly rushing 4 and mixing in well timed and placed 5th rushers in specific situations. This has larger been a result of two things. The first is that the team had to adjust to stop getting gouged by "spread" offenses. So dropping more guys into coverage, and not selling out with multiple extra pass rushers. In order to do that you need to have a higher caliber of player at the OLB position when it comes to pass rush skills. The Carlos Emmons of the world need not apply. Harrison and Woodley (before apparently he turned into a stretched out slinky or something) got a fairly high number of their sacks through simply lining up and beating the OL in front of them.

So with more teams playing the 3-4, edge rushers in general regardless of scheme becoming more highly prized around the league, the transition of pressure in Lebeau's scheme from primarily through exotic and overload blitzes to relying on the OLB to beat their blocker have all combined to make the assertion that the Steelers should not invest a large amount of money in the LB position to be fairly indefensible.

I think when the topic of Woodley comes up, everyone is in a rush to be the first and the loudest to shout "run the bum outta town" or "fat overpaid loser". If you really look at it, he is paid on par with his "peers". The problem begins when you take in to account his recent inability to stay on the field and the restructuring. Only one of those is on Woodley. If a player is missing as much time as he has recently with muscle pulls and strains, he better switch what he is doing in the off-season. Polamalu did that a few seasons ago and seems to be staying somewhat healthier.

The restructures, as has been belabored on here before, were to keep what the team thought was a championship core together for as long as possible. If you think that that decision was made at any level without the Rooneys signing off on it, then I can't really say much else.

[steelreserve]

A rough count has there between 12 and 16 teams playing a 3-4 defense in the league right now. So that is at least 24 OLB and more like 40 when you account for injuries and what not.

Since when is 10 million too much to pay for a pass rusher? No one would blink if a 4-3 team paid a DE that kind of money. In fact Mario Williams just got 6 years 96 million not too long ago. Hali is getting around 11 million per year. If you want sacks, there are two ways to go. Pay a premium to an established pass rusher, or keep rolling the dice on cheap young highly drafted edge players. And yes, these players are getting drafted higher than ever. With between 35-50 percent of the league playing a 3-4 in some mode or another recently, there are no longer "tweener" guys with great speed and pass rush ability slipping deep in the draft. Not saying it doesn't happen, you are simply seeing the prospects go earlier than in the past.

As to simply figuring that the Steelers can plug and play at OLB as long as there is premium talent on the defensive line; that is also false and a bit dated. First, everyone should stop looking for the next Aaron Smith. Smith made plays and put up stats that are simply unheard of for a 3-4 DE. In my mind Smith should get into Canton. I have a hard time coming up with an end in a 3-4 scheme that played it better. But returning to the larger point, the Steelers and Lebeau used to rely on zone blitzes and overloading the blocking scheme to generate pressure. In the past several seasons, counting the two most recent Super Bowl runs, the team has instead relied on generating pressure from mostly rushing 4 and mixing in well timed and placed 5th rushers in specific situations. This has larger been a result of two things. The first is that the team had to adjust to stop getting gouged by "spread" offenses. So dropping more guys into coverage, and not selling out with multiple extra pass rushers. In order to do that you need to have a higher caliber of player at the OLB position when it comes to pass rush skills. The Carlos Emmons of the world need not apply. Harrison and Woodley (before apparently he turned into a stretched out slinky or something) got a fairly high number of their sacks through simply lining up and beating the OL in front of them.

So with more teams playing the 3-4, edge rushers in general regardless of scheme becoming more highly prized around the league, the transition of pressure in Lebeau's scheme from primarily through exotic and overload blitzes to relying on the OLB to beat their blocker have all combined to make the assertion that the Steelers should not invest a large amount of money in the LB position to be fairly indefensible.

I think when the topic of Woodley comes up, everyone is in a rush to be the first and the loudest to shout "run the bum outta town" or "fat overpaid loser". If you really look at it, he is paid on par with his "peers". The problem begins when you take in to account his recent inability to stay on the field and the restructuring. Only one of those is on Woodley. If a player is missing as much time as he has recently with muscle pulls and strains, he better switch what he is doing in the off-season. Polamalu did that a few seasons ago and seems to be staying somewhat healthier.

The restructures, as has been belabored on here before, were to keep what the team thought was a championship core together for as long as possible. If you think that that decision was made at any level without the Rooneys signing off on it, then I can't really say much else.

Well, those are good points, and I respect your thoughts. I still think we paid our LBs more than we needed to, and more than was necessary to keep our championship window open, but hindsight is 20/20.

I think one thing that's become really obvious is that over the past 10-15 years, having our 3-4 scheme work well depended on having a couple of uniquely talented players in A. Smith and Polamalu. Smith's talents were the key to making the first scheme you mentioned stand up; Polamalu's were the key to the second. Yes, those are exactly the kind of rare, Hall-of-Fame players that you can't count on finding very often. On the other hand, winning a Super Bowl pretty much requires having rare, Hall-of-Fame players that you don't find often. True, you could have a rare talent as a pass rusher, but the fact is we don't. And it's hard to tell when you do have one - is it his production helping the team, or the team helping his production? I think far more pass rushers end up with eye-popping numbers and big contracts because of the players around them than the other way around. That's why a pass rusher is one of the easiest positions to take a big swing and a miss on. Take Aldon Smith and put him on our team, and watch how he'd do. You feeling me?

[Dwinsgames]

again it was not the contract , it was the restructuring of it multiple times that makes his cap hit the elephant in the room http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/lamarr-woodley/




(http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/lamarr-woodley/)

[Psycho Ward 86]

i dont get why woodley's dead money goes down the next 2 years if his pay goes up the next 2 years? how does that work

[Dwinsgames]

i dont get why woodley's dead money goes down the next 2 years if his pay goes up the next 2 years? how does that work


because its being chewed at with each passing season ....

when a player restructures the amount of the buyout in form of a bonus goes over the life of the contract part coming off in each year , the more years he plays the less dead money is on the deal ... by looking at the actual numbers it for me anyways reinforces the fact that he is uncutable ( is that even a word ? ) until perhaps his final season under contract

[steelreserve]

i dont get why woodley's dead money goes down the next 2 years if his pay goes up the next 2 years? how does that work

His base pay is separate from the dead money. The dead money is signing bonuses that we already paid him. They spread the cap hit for that out over the remaining years of the contract, which in Woodley's case is about $14M divided by 2 years. If we cut him, we have to take the whole $14M at once. If we wait until after June 1, they roll over the salary cap hits, so we can spread it out $7M that year and $7M the next.

Again, the base salary (which I believe is $8M next year, more in 2015) is separate from that; we have to pay him that on top of the dead money. That's what we would save by cutting him. So our choices are:

Cut now:
2014 - $14M dead money, $0 salary
$14M total

Cut on June 1:
2014 - $7M dead money, $0 salary
2015 - $7M dead money, $0 salary
$14M total

Keep for 2014, then cut:
2014 - $7M dead money, ~$8M salary = ~$15M
2015 - $7M dead money, $0 salary
$22M total

Keep for both years:
2014 - $7M dead money, ~$8M salary = ~$15M
2015 - $7M dead money, ~$9M salary = ~$16M
$31M total

To me, one of the first two is obvious; otherwise you're just throwing good money after bad, and at this point keeping him another year doesn't even help you manage your cap situation.

Knowing us, we'll probably choose option F) - extend him even longer to free up cap room in the immediate short term, and make the whole thing even worse.

[Dwinsgames]

Year
Base
S. Bonus
Misc.
Cap Hit
Dead


2011
1,100,000
2,600,000
4,000,000
7,700,000
-


2012
700,000
2,600,000
1,640,000
4,940,000
-


2013
3,600,000
2,600,000
2,990,000
9,190,000
19,760,000


2014
8,000,000
2,600,000
2,990,000
13,590,000
14,170,000


2015
8,500,000
2,600,000
2,990,000
14,090,000
8,580,000


2016
9,000,000
-
2,990,000
11,990,000
2,990,000





$22.5 million guaranteed
2011 Roster Bonus: $4 million
2012 Restructure Bonus: $8.2 million / 5 years
2013 Restructure Bonus: $5.4 million / 4years

[Dwinsgames]

hard to start chopping guys under contract and eating the hit and then having to replace them at yet another hit to the cap when you are already down all these guys under contract for 2014 and have to resign them or replace them all the while being over the cap already .....



Plaxico Burress (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/plaxico-burress/) at
at
620,000
UFA



Ryan Clark (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/ryan-clark/) at
at
4,750,000
UFA



Jerricho Cotchery (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/jerricho-cotchery/) at
at
1,500,000
UFA



Jonathan Dwyer (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/jonathan-dwyer/) at
at
592,941
UFA



Casey Hampton (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/casey-hampton/) at
at
UFA
-



Evander Hood (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/evander-hood/) at
at
2,990,860
UFA


David Johnson (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/david-johnson/) at
at
630,000
UFA



Felix Jones (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/felix-jones/) at
at
587,500
UFA



Brett Keisel (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/brett-keisel/) at
at
4,900,000
UFA




Mat McBriar (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/mat-mcbriar/) at
at
293,824
UFA



Eric Olsen (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/eric-olsen/) at
at
0
UFA


Michael Palmer (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/michael-palmer/) at
at
630,000
UFA


Emmanuel Sanders (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/emmanuel-sanders/) at
at
2,500,000
UFA



LaRod Stephens-Howling (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/larod-stephens-howling/) at
at
620,000
UFA


Stevenson Sylvester (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/stevenson-sylvester/) at
at
444,705
UFA




Fernando Velasco (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/fernando-velasco/) at
at
522,352
UFA



Cody Wallace (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/cody-wallace/) at
at
630,000
UFA


Greg Warren (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/greg-warren/) at
at
620,000
UFA



Guy Whimper (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/guy-whimper/) at
at
555,000
UFA



Al Woods (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/al-woods/) at
at
630,000
UFA



Jason Worilds (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/jason-worilds/) at
at
985,000
UFA

[steelreserve]

hard to start chopping guys under contract and eating the hit and then having to replace them at yet another hit to the cap when you are already down all these guys under contract for 2014 and have to resign them or replace them all the while being over the cap already .....

Yeah, but .. what would you rather do? Have Woodley cost you $14M next year for no production? Or have him cost you $14M EVERY year for no production? I don't give a shit if we still have to fill the roster spot. He's a waste of a roster spot now. Get someone for $500K and see what he can do, and if it's nothing, then no biggie.

It's a shitty situation no matter what you do. But at some point, enough is enough. Time to cut your losses before we get roped into paying him well into the 2020s. Because you KNOW if they don't get rid of him now, it's just going to end up as another restructure/extend next year that gets us even deeper into the bullshit in order to save a couple million in cap space in the immediate short term.

[katmandu]

The Woodley situation is just the tip of the iceberg walking into 2014. Time to pay the piper for all those restructured contracts.

[ALLD]

Maybe he will retire?

[steelreserve]

Maybe he will retire?

I'm reasonably certain that if he does that, the cap hit is calculated the same as if we cut him, so I don't think that would help our situation anyway.