Its Ben or Todd not going to be both in 2014

[Dwinsgames]

The Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.nfl.com/teams/pittsburghsteelers/profile?team=PIT) came out of the gate doing what we expected them to do in the snow Sunday at Heinz Field.






Against the visiting Dolphins (http://www.nfl.com/teams/miamidolphins/profile?team=MIA), Pittsburgh ran the ball down Miami's throat early, handing the rock to rookie Le'Veon Bell (http://www.nfl.com/player/le%27veonbell/2540175/profile) eight times on the team's 12-play touchdown drive in the opening quarter. The formula worked -- so why did the Steelers (http://www.nfl.com/teams/pittsburghsteelers/profile?team=PIT) drift away from it in a game they eventually lost 34-28 (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013120806/2013/REG14/dolphins@steelers#menu=highlights&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore)?
"Their scheme, I don't know, there was no particular reason," quarterback Ben Roethlisberger (http://www.nfl.com/player/benroethlisberger/2506109/profile) said, before "tersely" (http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/gene-collier/2013/12/09/Gene-Collier-Hazy-coaching-calls-darken-poor-season/stories/201312090063) directing reporters to offensive coordinator Todd Haley (http://www.nfl.com/player/toddhaley/2515611/profile), per the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000295503/article/big-ben-frustrated-with-steelers-approach-vs-dolphins

[zulater]

Ok say the Steelers end up 6-10 ( which they likely will) and when their turn in the first round comes up there's a qb that they have a high first round grade on. What do they do?

[Dwinsgames]

Ok say the Steelers end up 6-10 ( which they likely will) and when their turn in the first round comes up there's a qb that they have a high first round grade on. What do they do?

hard to say , what THEY would do , It may well depend on who is running the show in terms of the draft , is Colbert still the GM or have they moved on to someone else ?

we have way way way more questions than answers at this juncture IMO

are we going to fish or cut bait ? if cutting bait ( seems like the common theme in most posts here in terms of players and contracts because of the cap and declining play ) then you look for a trade partner for Ben and rebuild because cutting a bunch of bait makes you a non contender for a few years at least and then a new contract is due to keep Ben and more cap issues that will probably come with that .....

if fishing you keep Ben and try a mobile rebuild where you keep moving and try and plug in some pieces here and their and hope you can still compete at a high enough level to make a late run (this has not worked as of late for us as our record the past few years shows ) ...


I honestly do not know what they will do but it is pretty clear a Ben and Haley combo should not be the direction they try for a 3rd season ...


personally I am not a fan of some of the bigger named College prospects that will go early ( round 1 ) at QB for me they have as many questions about their game at the pro level as some guys who for me are more ready to play at the NFL level that can be had a bit later on .... But I am not a NFL GM ( although I have been better than Colbert at picks over the last half dozen years or so )

[stillers4me]

Actually, I saw the interview where Ben said that, and he did not say it "tersely". He simply directed the question to the proper person.

But the Pittsburgh media would never imply that Ben had any beef with Haley, would they?

[Dwinsgames]

Actually, I saw the interview where Ben said that, and he did not say it "tersely". He simply directed the question to the proper person.

But the Pittsburgh media would never imply that Ben had any beef with Haley, would they?

and he may have not said it tersely , he may have been in a pissy mood all together , they just lost a closely contested battle with playoff asperations on the line , its disheartening ....

however if he and Haley where " buddy's " he would have said SOMETHING ) one would think ) that would at the very least try and explain like he often times did for BA when asked the tough questions about play calling ... to this date I do not believe Ben has come to Todd's aid once ( not that he should have to , it is what it is )

I doubt they have a good relationship and that has nothing to do with the media , football relationships are built out of common goal and success , we have seen little success so you already have the deck stacked against you in forming a good relationship

just my observations right or wrong

[X-Terminator]

Haley will go before Ben does, you can be sure of that. Their relationship was doomed from the beginning. Ben already wasn't happy about BA being let go, but if they would have brought in an OC who wasn't a control freak, it could have ended up working out. But since Art II was determined to get back to his "3-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust" offense and to rein Ben in, Todd Haley ends up getting the job. It's pretty obvious that Ben wants more control of the offense, and he's pretty damn good when he's given that control, so they need to bring in an OC with an open mind who will give him that control.

[Dwinsgames]

But since Art II was determined to get back to his "3-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust" offense

no such mandate was EVER made why are seemingly so many not getting this correct is beyond me ....


in 2010 when Steelers President Art Rooney II publicly stated that he and head coach Mike Tomlin agreed the Steelers (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/pittsburgh-steelers) need to run the ball more effectively (http://www.post-gazette.com/steelers/2010/01/15/Rooney-wants-Steelers-to-run-the-ball-more/stories/201001150244).




Effectively

Use Effectively in a sentence (http://www.reference.com/example-sentences/effectively)
ef·fec·tive

[ih-fek-tiv] Show IPA
adjective

1. adequate to accomplish a purpose; producing the intended or expected result: effective teaching methods; effective steps toward peace (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/peace).

2. actually in operation or in force (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/force); functioning: The law becomes effective at midnight.

3. producing a deep or vivid impression; striking: an effective photograph.

4. prepared and available for service, especially military service.





WHERE does that say 3 yards and a cloud of dust ?

where does that say run 3 times and punt ?

where does that say take the ball out of Bens hands ?

it says we MUST BE BETTER AT IT WHEN DOING IT !!

Nothing more , nothing less

[fansince'76]

One of the biggest complaints of the Nation for years was that Arians didn't believe in Steelers football (see: smashmouth running game) and that the Steelers didn't run the ball enough. It doesn't take much reading between the lines to know what AR II really meant. In this case "more effectively" = "more."

Anyway, even by the "run the ball more effectively" measure, Haley has failed.

Steelers running game - yards-per-carry by year:

2013 (through 13 games): 3.4

2012: 3.7

2011: 4.4

2010: 4.1

2009: 4.2

2008: 3.7

2007: 4.2

The 3.4 YPC figure above is the lowest for the Steelers since they went 6-10 back in 2003, when they averaged 3.3 YPC. Time to give someone else the headset.

[Dwinsgames]

One of the biggest complaints of the Nation for years was that Arians didn't believe in Steelers football (see: smashmouth running game) and that the Steelers didn't run the ball enough. It doesn't take much reading between the lines to know what AR II really meant. In this case "more effectively" = "more."

Anyway, even by the "run the ball more effectively" measure, Haley has failed.

Steelers running game - yards-per-carry by year:

2013 (through 13 games): 3.4

2012: 3.7

2011: 4.4

2010: 4.1

2009: 4.2

2008: 3.7

2007: 4.2

The 3.4 YPC figure above is the lowest for the Steelers since they went 6-10 back in 2003, when they averaged 3.3 YPC. Time to give someone else the headset.


sorry do not buy it , run more effectively means exactly what it says .... run the ball better . no place is the word MORE used ! Art may or may not be a lot of things ., he may lack some of the people skills his dad has in spades but the one thing he does not lack is the ability to articulate what he is saying ...

he does not need to sugar coat or use selective wording deceive you or me in how he words things , its HIS team not ours we are but fans and have only an emotional investment ... if he said we are going to trade Ben sign Tebow and run the option as out base O he could and nothing you or I could do or say would change that , he does not answer to us nor should he have to ....

to say he said one thing and meant another is a load of crap and subjective as all get out .... on top of that IF what he meant was what any of the people here claiming it was Tomlin would have already been fired , Haley would not have been back for 2013 either ... we pass 60% of the time ( maybe more I did not go check but it has to be that or more ) directly disobeying your boss gets you walking papers in this league just like it would at the local doughnut shop ...3 yards and a cloud of dust would be running 60% or more not 40% or less



as for Haley failing .... I agree he has in a multitude of areas , I would not say it has been all his fault though , the line has played like dog shit , injuries have not aided that any and he has a QB that he can not communicate with , sure Haley has some culpability in that but that sword is sharp on both sides make no mistake ....

Ben was pissed Arains was fired , he was resistant to Hailey ( and probably anyone else who would have been hired ) and Hailey tough guy approach and hard line attitude and arrogance is a deal clincher that it is probably right this moment as good as it will ever be and that is they both tolerate one another and that is about it

[X-Terminator]

Gonna agree to disagree, Dwins, and leave it at that. Not going to argue at length over this when my mind isn't going to be changed.

[fansince'76]

Gonna agree to disagree, Dwins, and leave it at that. Not going to argue at length over this when my mind isn't going to be changed.

Yep, same here. All one really has to do is go back and read the headline of the Ed Bouchette article Dwins linked:

"Rooney wants Steelers to run the ball more"

[Hawkman]

I'm almost certain Rooney said, "more EFFECTIVELY"!! What about the difference don't people get??!! While I'm at it, why are people harping on the OC, QB mistakes/relationships, when, except for the effectiveness of the running game, the offense is performing well, and it's the defense that's well below the line. Let's do just a quick compare to that "stellar" last year of BA's contract, 12-4(not fired, that would imply that he was gotten rid of during an active contract). 2011-Ben-TDs-21 Int-14, PPG-20.3, Passing yards per game-255.......2013 (with three games left-Ben-TDs-24 Int-10, PPG-22.3, Passing yards per game-286.

Now for the real difference between 2013 and 2011 (the last year of BA's contract)......The defense is allowing 24 points per game in 2013, they allowed only 14 points per game in 2011.

Amazing how much space has been used talking about the problems of the offense, (Rooney sucks, Haley sucks, Tomlin sucks, Ben sucks, sanders sucks, OLine sucks, Brown blew it.......................................), and how little is spent on the wows of the defense. I for one am over it. Tomlin, Haley and Ben aren't going anywhere after this year. Mark my word.

[BnG_Hevn]

How many points this year came on short fields due to the offense turning the ball over?

The offense and defense (and ST) all compliment each other, you can't take one out back to the woodshed without the other.

When the offense is on, they chew up the clock to keep the defense rested, maybe even gain a good lead so the defense can concentrate on pass rush.

When the defense is on, they can give the offense a short field with which to work, making their life easier.

You can't hang any blame on one without looking at the other.

[Dwinsgames]

How many points this year came on short fields due to the offense turning the ball over?

The offense and defense (and ST) all compliment each other, you can't take one out back to the woodshed without the other.

When the offense is on, they chew up the clock to keep the defense rested, maybe even gain a good lead so the defense can concentrate on pass rush.

When the defense is on, they can give the offense a short field with which to work, making their life easier.

You can't hang any blame on one without looking at the other.

period

[Spike]

Protect Ben. We can't fix everything in one draft so I suggest we build up the offense to compete in the weekly 35+ pt games we will need to win against good teams. Look around the league at the scores, defenses have become irrelevant in the new NFL, we should go all offense. Lets find us a couple tall WR's, some real OT's and a TE...the defense it too expensive to fix with all those huge contracts, find some waiver wire scrubs and late rd picks to keep teams to around 20 pts. that's good enough.

and for the love of God, Fire the stink of losing Haley! He's the curse that needs to go first.... we started this slide to the bottom the minute he was brought on board, no wonder Ben hates him

[steelreserve]

I can't picture a situation where Haley wins that one. He has accomplished nothing of note since he got here. If it's a him-or-Ben ultimatum, probably nothing short of Ben going to jail would let him keep his job. Maybe not even then. I haven't been thrilled with his performance regardless.

[Dwinsgames]

Yep, same here. All one really has to do is go back and read the headline of the Ed Bouchette article Dwins linked:

"Rooney wants Steelers to run the ball more"







actually this was the headline ....
Steelers President Art Rooney II still waiting on improvements in running game


and here is the link http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/11/14/5102544/Steelers-running-game-statistics-depth-chart

but hey never let the facts get in the way of a good argument :eyebrows:

- - - Updated - - -


I can't picture a situation where Haley wins that one. He has accomplished nothing of note since he got here. If it's a him-or-Ben ultimatum, probably nothing short of Ben going to jail would let him keep his job. Maybe not even then. I haven't been thrilled with his performance regardless.


I agree ... Haley is a goner but that is not saying the potential for both isn't within the realm of possibility ....

at this point it's getting pretty hard to shock me , we could see anything from minimal changes to a complete housecleaning players and coaches the like ... again not much left that will shock me ( other than promoting Haley to HC ) now that would shock me ( and piss me off )

[Wallace108]

Yep, same here. All one really has to do is go back and read the headline of the Ed Bouchette article Dwins linked:

"Rooney wants Steelers to run the ball more"




Reporters generally don't write their own headlines. That's why sometimes you'll see some discrepancy between the story and headline.

With that said, I agree with your point in regard to what Rooney said. I just wanted to clarify that headlines don't always accurately summarize a story.

[Dwinsgames]

Reporters generally don't write their own headlines. That's why sometimes you'll see some discrepancy between the story and headline.

With that said, I agree with your point in regard to what Rooney said. I just wanted to clarify that headlines don't always accurately summarize a story.

the problem is its not what was said ... try reading it http://http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com...cs-depth-chart

[MrPgh]

One of the biggest complaints of the Nation for years was that Arians didn't believe in Steelers football (see: smashmouth running game) and that the Steelers didn't run the ball enough. It doesn't take much reading between the lines to know what AR II really meant. In this case "more effectively" = "more."

Anyway, even by the "run the ball more effectively" measure, Haley has failed.

Steelers running game - yards-per-carry by year:

2013 (through 13 games): 3.4

2012: 3.7

2011: 4.4

2010: 4.1

2009: 4.2

2008: 3.7

2007: 4.2

The 3.4 YPC figure above is the lowest for the Steelers since they went 6-10 back in 2003, when they averaged 3.3 YPC. Time to give someone else the headset.

Wait! You mean under the years where Ben was supposedly this selfish gun-slinger that only cared about his stats the Steelers were more effective at running the ball!? MY GOD! :faint:

Perhaps this is where running the ball just for the sake of running the ball has failed the Steelers. They get behind in the down and distance because they keep trying to bash their heads against a brick wall, and eventually fall behind on the scoreboard. Then they have to abandon the run and have Ben throw for 400+ yards for any hope of coming back. A team's running stats aren't going to look good when that happens - and that has happened all too often to the Steelers in the Haley offense.

As for the "Ben or Haley" argument, unless the Steelers want to be the laughing stock of the NFL, Haley is gone. No team with a franchise QB and OC at odds would choose the OC. Hell, even if they were going to move on from Ben they should still fire Haley.

[Wallace108]

the problem is its not what was said ... try reading it http://http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com...cs-depth-chart

I'm not sure a blogger has anymore insight than you and I do into what Rooney really meant. :noidea:

Running the ball isn't like a light switch that can be turned on and off at will. If it was that easy, every team would be able to do it. The Steelers have historically been a strong running team ... and that's what (I assume) Rooney wanted to get back to. Not 3 yards and a cloud of dust necessarily, but definitely more of a commitment to running the ball than what they had under Arians.

Mark Kaboly, one of the most reliable Steelers beat writers, said it like this back in August:


There’s no secret that the Steelers want to run the ball this year. No, like seriously run the ball like they used to.

Read more: http://blog.triblive.com/steel-mill/2013/08/01/did-steelers-use-wednesdays-live-practice-period-to-set-a-tone/#ixzz2n6Rplqjp

[Dwinsgames]

I'm not sure a blogger has anymore insight than you and I do into what Rooney really meant. :noidea:

Running the ball isn't like a light switch that can be turned on and off at will. If it was that easy, every team would be able to do it. The Steelers have historically been a strong running team ... and that's what (I assume) Rooney wanted to get back to. Not 3 yards and a cloud of dust necessarily, but definitely more of a commitment to running the ball than what they had under Arians.

Mark Kaboly, one of the most reliable Steelers beat writers, said it like this back in August:


problem is this is not what I want to make of what was said , it is not what you want to make of what was said , its not what any blogger or reporter wants to make of what was said .....

BUT it is about what was said

and at no time did he use the term RUN THE BALL MORE , he did in fact us the term RUN THE BALL MORE EFFECTIVELY ...

the meaning of those two statements are night and day yet many posters here seem to forget that all important word Effectively

[one side only]

Must a team commit to running the ball more to become effective at doing so? The function of a team should follows its form -- coaches, players, philosophy, vision, mission, strategic objectives, operational planning, and tactical execution. The Steelers are a model of dysfunction in this regard.

[Dwinsgames]

Must a team commit to running the ball more to become effective at doing so? The function of a team should follows its form -- coaches, players, philosophy, vision, mission, strategic objectives, operational planning, and tactical execution. The Steelers are a model of dysfunction in this regard.

good post

[one side only]

Thanks, Dwins . . . I meant this in the "on the field" context. The franchise benefits from a extremely large and loyal fan base. They can screw up the football part of the equation for years before it would have any effect at all on the overall operation of the franchise.

[MrPgh]

Thanks, Dwins . . . I meant this in the "on the field" context. The franchise benefits from a extremely large and loyal fan base. They can screw up the football part of the equation for years before it would have any effect at all on the overall operation of the franchise.

Which is more evidence of dysfunction in the organization.

[Wallace108]

problem is this is not what I want to make of what was said , it is not what you want to make of what was said , its not what any blogger or reporter wants to make of what was said .....

BUT it is about what was said

and at no time did he use the term RUN THE BALL MORE , he did in fact us the term RUN THE BALL MORE EFFECTIVELY ...

the meaning of those two statements are night and day yet many posters here seem to forget that all important word Effectively
What someone says and what they mean aren't always the same. That's why public figures are often bitching about their words being taken out of context. Usually, their words really weren't taken out of context ... but what they said might not have come out the way they meant it (or they're lying to cover their asses). The only people who truly know what Rooney meant is Rooney and the team. You and I don't know anything beyond a couple statements.

I responded to this thread only to point out that reporters generally don't write the headlines for their stories. I had no intention of getting into a debate about what Rooney meant when he said "run the ball more effectively." I have my opinion and you have yours, and I doubt there's anything either of us can say to change the other's mind. There can be no winner in this debate. Unless Rooney comes out and clarifies his statement, which is highly unlikely, we'll never be 100 percent sure what he really meant. No matter what Rooney meant, I think you and I can agree that it hasn't been achieved. :drink:

[fansince'76]

Reporters generally don't write their own headlines. That's why sometimes you'll see some discrepancy between the story and headline.

With that said, I agree with your point in regard to what Rooney said. I just wanted to clarify that headlines don't always accurately summarize a story.

I know you're a journalist by trade and I honestly didn't know that. And I acknowledge that I very well could have read too much into AR II's statements regarding the run, even though my gut has always told me different. :drink:

[Dwinsgames]

2012 season

For the record, the Steelers were in the dead middle of the league in run/pass ratio with 57.2 percent pass and 42.8 percent rush.

2011 season
55% passing 45 % rushing

so if a Edict was sent from Art 2 mandating a run first mentality and 3 yards and a cloud of dust blah blah blah it seems to me like heads would have already rolled

people always want proof around here there , now you have it .... a mandate never happened and the numbers and Jobs still held by the coaching staff proves that

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2011.htm

[Dwinsgames]

And I acknowledge that I very well could have read too much into AR II's statements regarding the run, even though my gut has always told me different. :drink:

:drink:

take a real man to admit he could be wrong , your ok in my book

[Dwinsgames]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/pittsburgh-steelers/0ap2000000296364/Roethlisberger-Todd-Haley-on-same-page

audio here ....

Ben sounds as pissed about this as anything ever IMO .... maybe him and haley do get along ? guess stranger things have happened perhaps we have all been wrong ?

[Wallace108]

I know you're a journalist by trade and I honestly didn't know that. And I acknowledge that I very well could have read too much into AR II's statements regarding the run, even though my gut has always told me different. :drink:

Most people naturally assume that reporters also write the headlines. If I wasn't a journalist, I'd assume the same thing.
And to be clear so no one tries to call me out on it later ... I'm not saying that they never write headlines, but generally they don't. Every paper doesn't use the same process, but headline writing typically is done by editors or page designers.

Again, I agree with your gut in regard to Rooney. I think what he was saying is that he wants to get back to Steelers football. Obviously, he doesn't want run-run-run-punt ... just more of a commitment to the running game. In my opinion, that requires them to run more. They can't run 15 percent of the time and expect it to be effective. But that's just my opinion, which is based on everything I read at the time. But as I said to Dwins, I'm not going to suggest that I know what Rooney was thinking when he made the comments.

[fansince'76]

:drink:

take a real man to admit he could be wrong , your ok in my book

Likewise. :drink:

[Hawkman]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/pittsburgh-steelers/0ap2000000296364/Roethlisberger-Todd-Haley-on-same-page

audio here ....

Ben sounds as pissed about this as anything ever IMO .... maybe him and haley do get along ? guess stranger things have happened perhaps we have all been wrong ?

He does sound pissed! If this is true along with the stuff Rappasshole reported a couple of weeks ago, I don't know why Ben would say anything to anyone outside of team meetings.......ever again. Media just doesn't seem to be concerned about getting it right......just dramatic. No wonder Bellicheat doesn't give them anything.

[MrPgh]

I know you're a journalist by trade and I honestly didn't know that. And I acknowledge that I very well could have read too much into AR II's statements regarding the run, even though my gut has always told me different. :drink:

Given the way the Haley offense has looked most of the time, it's pretty easy to get that gut feeling.

[Dwinsgames]

For the record ...................

year to date ....

Ben 500 passing attempts year to date

Rushes 269 total year to date

Bell 174

Dwyer 39

Jones 40

LSH 6

Redman 10

so without doing the math at a quick glance it seems .......

2013 we throw the ball 65% of the time

2012 57.2 percent pass

2011 55% passes


Interesting isn't it

[zulater]

For the record ...................

year to date ....

Ben 500 passing attempts year to date

Rushes 269 total year to date

Bell 174

Dwyer 39

Jones 40

LSH 6

Redman 10

so without doing the math at a quick glance it seems .......

2013 we throw the ball 65% of the time

2012 57.2 percent pass

2011 55% passes


Interesting isn't it

Think if our defense was it's usual self this would be the case?

[cold-hard-steel]

I don't know , but i think the offense is really starting to get a glimpse of what they are trying to do . My opinion is , if you bring another OC in now , then you pretty much wasted all the time , sweat , surgury , injuries , that you put into your plan . Changes need to be made , and anyone can see that . But do we really ax the OC ? I believe we have issues . But i don't think it starts at the OC position of this team .

[MrPgh]

For the record ...................

year to date ....

Ben 500 passing attempts year to date

Rushes 269 total year to date

Bell 174

Dwyer 39

Jones 40

LSH 6

Redman 10

so without doing the math at a quick glance it seems .......

2013 we throw the ball 65% of the time

2012 57.2 percent pass

2011 55% passes


Interesting isn't it

Again, you just throw out numbers without context. When a team is behind as often as the Steelers are they have to try and throw their way back into games. Passing more isn't causing losing, losing is causing more passing. It's been explained to you several times, but you ignore it. A big reason the Steelers are behind so often is because early on in games they waste downs running their heads into a brick wall or throwing screen passes that go nowhere.


I don't know , but i think the offense is really starting to get a glimpse of what they are trying to do . My opinion is , if you bring another OC in now , then you pretty much wasted all the time , sweat , surgury , injuries , that you put into your plan . Changes need to be made , and anyone can see that . But do we really ax the OC ? I believe we have issues . But i don't think it starts at the OC position of this team .

The flaw in your reasoning is that for the most part the offense has looked awful with Haley calling the plays. The times the offense has looked respectable is when Ben calls the plays. So why should the Steelers keep an OC that has put them in position to fail so many times?

[KeiselPower99]

For a team wanting to run the ball we are doing a shit job of it regardless of who the offensive coordinator is. Since 07 and when Willie Parker broke his leg it hasn't be the same.

[Hawkman]

Tomlin, Haley and Ben aren't going anywhere after this year. Mark my word.

Still holding true!:eyebrows:

[Dwinsgames]

Still holding true!:eyebrows:

pat pat

[86WARD]

Still holding true!:eyebrows:

And still...

[fansince'76]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/stampe/Forumpics/22727d1287876904-al-khalid-tank-necro-4_zpsaeb7f4ae.jpg

:chuckle:

[86WARD]

Lol. It's fun to bring up the past every now and again.