PDA

View Full Version : Can Mike Tomlin fix the Steelers, or is he part of what needs fixing?



zulater
12-08-2013, 10:01 PM
Simple question. No need for smart Alec answers, belligerence or belittlement. Say what you believe and if you care to make the effort why you believe and see where the conversation goes.

Hell I'm not even sure what my own answer is. But two straight non playoff years. 3 straight seasons without a playoff win. a steady deterioration of the roster. Clock mismanagement, bad losses to bad teams etc... Where does it turn around?


I don't know, I'm not getting much sense that he has a plan to right things? :noidea:

How many more non playoff seasons does he get?

fansince'76
12-08-2013, 10:11 PM
Cowher got 2 back-to-back losing seasons, 3 straight non-playoff seasons and 4 non-playoff seasons in six years and he didn't get canned. What's more, he won a "he goes or I go" showdown with the GM at the time in the midst of it all. A GM, according to some, who is heads-and-tails better than the current one. And Cowher still didn't have a Super Bowl win on his résumé at that point.

Tomlin gets at least 2 more years. If things haven't improved by then, I think he will be let go. As X-T has pointed out (and I fully agree), the team is paying the piper for trying to win another Super Bowl with the "old guard" instead of letting aging players go as they traditionally would. And the decision to do that was made above Tomlin's head.

zulater
12-08-2013, 10:17 PM
Keenan Lewis has said he was never made an offer by the Steelers before he left via free agency. Doesn't Tomlin have some power to tell the team this is a guy we need to keep if he thought so? Coming into a season with only one viable back up for the entire offensive line, that's above Tomlin's pay grade? Cutting Dwyer because he's in your dog house to go with an injured and out of shape Isaac Redman,not on Tomlin?

MrPgh
12-08-2013, 10:17 PM
Cowher got 2 back-to-back losing seasons, 3 straight non-playoff seasons and 4 non-playoff seasons in six years and he didn't get canned. What's more, he won a "he goes or I go" showdown with the GM at the time in the midst of it all. A GM, according to some, who is heads-and-tails better than the current one. And Cowher still didn't have a Super Bowl win on his résumé at that point.

Tomlin gets at least 2 more years. If things haven't improved by then, I think he will be let go. As X-T has pointed out (and I fully agree), the team is paying the piper for trying to win another Super Bowl with the "old guard" instead of letting aging players go as they traditionally would. And the decision to do that was made above Tomlin's head.

Gee, I wonder who could be making those decisions? Certainly not anyone who was given a team because of who his daddy is!

zulater
12-08-2013, 10:20 PM
The Jets have won more games than the Steelers this season and they're going to fire their coach after the season's over. Anyone care to argue to me that the Jets are a more talented team than the Steelers?

86WARD
12-08-2013, 10:21 PM
Currently he is part of the problem IMO.

fansince'76
12-08-2013, 10:26 PM
Never mind - fire his ass. That's what you want to hear anyway.

zulater
12-08-2013, 10:33 PM
Currently he is part of the problem IMO.

No doubt he's been part of the problem.

But that doesn't necessarily preclude him from being part of the cure does it?

- - - Updated - - -


Never mind - fire his ass. That's what you want to hear anyway.


No. But it's what I knew I would hear from the it's never the coaches fault contingent.

- - - Updated - - -

Here's my "agenda" I think if you play it right you might have a 3 year window with Ben playing at an elite level. If you don't think Tomlin can deliver a solid message and plan to at least get things headed in the right direction by next season then maybe you need a new man.

fansince'76
12-08-2013, 10:34 PM
No. But it's what I knew I would hear from the it's never the coaches fault contingent.

My point was made based around the fact that the Rooneys traditionally have patience with their HCs. That's why I said he gets at least two more years. As opposed to your example of the Jets, who haven't sniffed a Super Bowl win since before the Apollo 11 moon landing. Patience has served the Steelers well, is my point. They stay the course for now, in my opinion.

dislocatedday
12-08-2013, 10:38 PM
I really don't know if I believe he can get this team back to consistently competing for divisions titles and championships. I've had my doubts for quite awhile about his ability, but I think he should be given another year to see if he can get this team going again. If next year is another dud, then I'm all for bringing in someone else.

steelreserve
12-08-2013, 10:39 PM
I don't know ... I liked him at first, but it's looking more and more like he inherited a great team and does not know how to sustain it and replenish it.

Don't get me wrong, I know it's quite possible to fuck up even WITH a stacked roster - numerous examples of that around the league every year - so he deserves some credit for being able to keep things on course for his first few years. But the fact that we're still relying so heavily on guys that were around in 2005 and 2008 is starting to look a lot less like some noble commitment to our core players, and a lot more like a simple inability to find good backups and successors. No, Tomlin's not the only one responsible for who we draft - but best case, he's doing nothing to improve the process; worst case, he's helping screw it up.

A good coach, you can tell he's helping to shape the draft and put together a team with his stamp on it, according to a coherent plan. Our drafts look like LeBeau fighting with Colbert over which broken part to swap out, and the result is that we draft like a guy chasing a bus. A coach who really, really had a vision for the long-term future of the team - and the respect necessary to influence things - would not let them run like that. As I've mentioned before, our player development after we do draft guys is also a concern, and that falls on no one but the coaches.

Anyway, those are my big concerns. Yeah, shit happens and sometimes you have a bad season. Two in a row, you start raising some eyebrows and trying to figure out why. Yes, we do have the handicap of the big salary cap problem - some will call it "the bill for the 2008/10 Super Bowl runs" - but guess what? The max length of an NFL contract is 7 years, so every last one of these deals was signed on Tomlin's watch. Again, the coach is not the only one who controls that, but a good one will be involved right in the middle of it. And the #1 way to avoid getting trapped into that situation is to find and bring along players who can replace the "old guard" veterans. There's no one else really to blame.

Do we fire him at the end of the year? I'd say yes - IF there's someone else worth going after. Just making a change for the hell of it and not having anything better in mind is the one way we could screw up even worse. "You run TO something, not FROM something," is the way they say it, I believe.

MrPgh
12-08-2013, 10:39 PM
My point was made based around the fact that the Rooneys traditionally have patience with their HCs. That's why I said he gets at least two more years. As opposed to your example of the Jets, who haven't sniffed a Super Bowl win since before the Apollo 11 moon landing. Patience has served the Steelers well, is my point. They stay the course for now, in my opinion.

While I'm not hot on Tomlin right now, I will say it must be hard to be a head coach when your team's owner dictates who your coaching staff is and what kind of style you can play.

Bad things happen when owners meddle constantly. If Art II cannot trust Tomlin, he needs to fire Tomlin and hire a coach he can trust, then stay the hell out of the new coach's way.

fansince'76
12-08-2013, 10:41 PM
While I'm not hot on Tomlin right now, I will say it must be hard to be a head coach when your team's owner dictates who your coaching staff is and what kind of style you can play.

Bad things happen when owners meddle constantly. If Art II cannot trust Tomlin, he needs to fire Tomlin and hire a coach he can trust, then stay the hell out of the new coach's way.

This too. Does anybody really believe Haley was hired by Tomlin? Really?

zulater
12-08-2013, 10:41 PM
My point was made based around the fact that the Rooneys traditionally have patience with their HCs. That's why I said he gets at least two more years. As opposed to your example of the Jets, who haven't sniffed a Super Bowl win since before the Apollo 11 moon landing. Patience has served the Steelers well, is my point. They stay the course for now, in my opinion.

Valid.

But again my big concern is you got a shelf ,life on your quarterback. So while patience has a place and has served this franchise well in the past, franchise qb's don't grow on trees, you can go decades between them. So you have to maximize your chances now to a greater extent than you normally would imo.

And maybe I'm wrong, but I think part of the problem is that the message has grown stale. We might not be the most talented team in the league, but we're not as bad as our record would indicate either imo. Again the Jets are 6-7 and we're 5-8. That's a serious underperformance on our part.:frusty:

zulater
12-08-2013, 10:49 PM
This too. Does anybody really believe Haley was hired by Tomlin? Really?

At the same token Dan Rooney forced Chuck Noll to fire Tony Dungy. Noll vowed never again. In 89 after a sub par year Rooney made it known that changes on the coaching staff would be in order. So Noll quit rather than have his hand forced again by Dan. Truth be told, as much as I admire and respected Noll it was time. So intervention isn't necessarily the worst thing in all cases.

Devilsdancefloor
12-08-2013, 10:51 PM
i think he can fix the problerm, but this team has not been the same since they lost to green bay in the super bowlit is time for coach T to stop with the talks and start walking the walk sometimes you cant be your players best friend

zulater
12-08-2013, 10:57 PM
i think he can fix the problerm, but this team has not been the same since they lost to green bay in the super bowlit is time for coach T to stop with the talks and start walking the walk sometimes you cant be your players best friend


Agreed

Dwinsgames
12-08-2013, 10:58 PM
going back to the original post


But two straight non playoff years. 3 straight seasons without a playoff win. a steady deterioration of the roster. Clock mismanagement, bad losses to bad teams etc... Where does it turn around?

Coaches coach and players play has always been a motto I entrusted , but when games are lost or potentially lost by things that happen on the sidelines you are now part of the problem and not part of the solution and we have seen some of that from Tomlin and his staff ....

question is has it effected things enough to merit change ? its a very subjective topic but I lean towards yes because when you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem .... 60% -40% on terminating him from my vantage point

moving on to the next part ...
But two straight non playoff years. 3 straight seasons without a playoff win. a steady deterioration of the roster. Clock mismanagement, bad losses to bad teams etc... Where does it turn around?

Look at the staff that produces your draft board for those answers ( Colbert and HIS hand picked scouting department ) , Tomlin can only assemble a roster with the men provided under contract and from the draft , he can not magically make guys appear on the roster they did not draft or sign , he can not make guys into players that never really had enough talent to begin with ... his hands are somewhat tied in this area of the team , the only time he deserves blame here is when more talented players sit the bench while lesser players play or when he cuts a superior player for a lesser one which does not happen often but has happened ..... Fire Colbert 85% lean towards this move from my vantage point ....

Lebeau ....... he is a legend , he has not lost his touch IMO , he just at this point in time has a slow back end of his defense , a soft nose who does not command a double team an grossly over paid OLB who is hurt as often as he is not and under performs on a weekly basis when his salary is considered into the equation and simply lack the over all talent to make his scheme work the way he and the rest of us expect it to ... It is hard to blame a man for the lack of talent his side of the ball has to operate with ... but some will anyways

MrPgh
12-08-2013, 10:58 PM
At the same token Dan Rooney forced Chuck Noll to fire Tony Dungy. Noll vowed never again. In 89 after a sub par year Rooney made it known that changes on the coaching staff would be in order. So Noll quit rather than have his hand forced again by Dan. Truth be told, as much as I admire and respected Noll it was time. So intervention isn't necessarily the worst thing in all cases.

It is after a 12-4 season when the players lost an OC they liked for an OC that nobody who's worked with him liked. Intervention may not ALWAYS be bad, like say when Dan Rooney wanted Ben drafted, but constant intervention by ownership IS a very bad thing.

zulater
12-08-2013, 11:02 PM
Gut feeling question, fill in the blank with the best choice as you see it.

The next time the Steelers are serious contenders to make a Super Bowl run.....

A. Both Big Ben and Mike Tomlin will be leading the charge.

B. Tomlin will be the coach but Ben wont be the quarterback.

C. Ben will be the quarterback but Tomlin will no longer be the coach.

D. Both Ben and Tomlin will be long done as Steelers.

Sad to say gun to my head I'd have to pick D.

Shoes
12-08-2013, 11:05 PM
I do not think Tomlin can fix the problem because he's part of it, I don't see him has HC qualified. The other part of the problem is Art II and how do you fix that?

- - - Updated - - -



Zu, I'd have to go with D also.

MrPgh
12-08-2013, 11:08 PM
I do not think Tomlin can fix the problem because he's part of it, I don't see him has HC qualified. The other part of the problem is Art II and how do you fix that?

- - - Updated - - -



Zu, I'd have to go with D also.

Dan Rooney could, but no way in hell he'd want to humiliate his own son like that.

Shoes
12-08-2013, 11:11 PM
Dan Rooney could, but no way in hell he'd want to humiliate his own son like that.

I think Dan is to tired to be involved in this mess even if he wanted to.

zulater
12-08-2013, 11:17 PM
It is after a 12-4 season when the players lost an OC they liked for an OC that nobody who's worked with him liked. Intervention may not ALWAYS be bad, like say when Dan Rooney wanted Ben drafted, but constant intervention by ownership IS a very bad thing.

I'm fairly certain there hasn't been "constant intervention." I think it was a one time specific event. And I'm not even certain the idea of firing Arians was wrong. There were things about Ben's game that needed tweaking and it seemed evident that Bruce was unable or unwilling to effect such change.

The problem came about with the replacement hire of Haley. A hire for which Tomlin has taken full credit ( or blame ) for.

Dwinsgames
12-08-2013, 11:20 PM
let us clarify what exactly Art 2 said .....


It's been three years and 10 months since that day in 2010 when Steelers President Art Rooney II publicly stated that he and head coach Mike Tomlin agreed the Steelers (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/pittsburgh-steelers) need to run the ball more effectively (http://www.post-gazette.com/steelers/2010/01/15/Rooney-wants-Steelers-to-run-the-ball-more/stories/201001150244). Three years of Rashard Mendenhall, Chris Rainey, Isaac Redman, Jonathan Dwyer and now, Le'Veon Bell. LaRod Stephens-Howling gets a nod, too.

Rooney is quoted as saying: "..."We have to get back to being able to run the football when we need to run the football, and being able to run more consistently than we have in the past season."




there is NOTHING wrong with that statement , it is true we MUST run the ball better than we have , 2.8 YPC is not good enough regardless of the name on the back of your jersey and most times that is what we are averaging , teams do not respect that sort of running game and can pin their ears back on your QB or drop an extra man in coverage hindering your QBs ability to make plays down field .....

here is a good article on it below and I implore you to read this before commenting on Art2 in a negative manner because he was correct in what he said ( some will have you believe he said something different , don't let selective memory be your guide as well )
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/3567491/What_Rooney_was_talking_about_medium.png (http://cdn1.sbnation.com/assets/3567491/What_Rooney_was_talking_about.png)



http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/11/14/5102544/Steelers-running-game-statistics-depth-chart

MrPgh
12-08-2013, 11:23 PM
I'm fairly certain there hasn't been "constant intervention." I think it was a one time specific event. And I'm not even certain the idea of firing Arians was wrong. There were things about Ben's game that needed tweaking and it seemed evident that Bruce was unable or unwilling to effect such change.

The problem came about with the replacement hire of Haley. A hire for which Tomlin has taken full credit ( or blame ) for.

Of course he would. You think Tomlin would tell the media Haley was Art II's hire?

As for the constant intervention, we see it on display every time the Steelers try to stubbornly pound their heads into a brick wall, or when they wait until they are down by 14 points until they let Ben run the no-huddle. If there was no intervention, why do the Steelers keep trying to do the same things that always fail and why do they avoid doing what works best?

zulater
12-08-2013, 11:33 PM
Of course he would. You think Tomlin would tell the media Haley was Art II's hire?

As for the constant intervention, we see it on display every time the Steelers try to stubbornly pound their heads into a brick wall, or when they wait until they are down by 14 points until they let Ben run the no-huddle. If there was no intervention, why do the Steelers keep trying to do the same things that always fail and why do they avoid doing what works best?


Because Haley isn't a good fit for this team or is just bad at his job doesn't mean that Art II is constantly intervening.

We get it, you think Art is the Devil incarnate.

Sorry but because he may have overstepped his bounds one time as managing partner or whatever you want to call him, doesn't make him the worst person in the world in my book.

Hopefully Haley is fired after this season and a better choice is made next time for OC.

MrPgh
12-08-2013, 11:36 PM
Because Haley isn't a good fit for this team or is just bad at his job doesn't mean that Art II is constantly intervening.

We get it, you think Art is the Devil incarnate.

Sorry but because he may have overstepped his bounds one time as managing partner or whatever you want to call him, doesn't make him the worst person in the world in my book.

Hopefully Haley is fired after this season and a better choice is made next time for OC.

So why do the Steelers keep doing the same things that don't work and refuse to do what does work?

As for Art II, it's pretty much universally accepted he made the call on Haley.

zulater
12-08-2013, 11:46 PM
So why do the Steelers keep doing the same things that don't work and refuse to do what does work?

As for Art II, it's pretty much universally accepted he made the call on Haley.


Because coaches and teams are myopic and arrogant and refuse to acknowledge when they're wrong until it's too late. This is true of a majority of teams in every sport that's played.

And it doesn't matter who hired Haley. Tomlin can reign him in anytime he wants. If he's denied it his resume is strong enough to get a job a week after he would be let go by the Steelers. So if he's (Tomlin) not standing up to Art that's on him.

Dwinsgames
12-08-2013, 11:51 PM
How many team presidents/owners talk about run/pass ratio? If Jerry Jones did that yinzer nation would be laughing their asses off at his meddling. If Art II does it, he must be right because his last name is Rooney! The guy is nowhere close to being in the class of owner as his father was. Really, Art II is just a bum that won a sperm lotto.

Since Art II made his mandate to get back to "Steeler football" during the 2012 offseason the Steelers hold a record of 13-15. That would lead most people to think Art II's direction is the wrong direction for the team, no?

not only the facts are dead wrong on what Art2 said , but the time frame is also off ... and just who the fuck are you to call the team President the winner of the sperm lotto ... ( post 30 of this link http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/18857-Offensive-Coordinator-Candidates/page2?highlight=sperm )

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com...cs-depth-chart (http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/11/14/5102544/Steelers-running-game-statistics-depth-chart)

so yes you are a TROLL and frankly am kind of shocked you have not been bounced out of here already for comments as such

Shoes
12-08-2013, 11:59 PM
Dwins I don't think there is a fan alive who doesn't want the team to run the ball better. My beef with Art II is trust. IMO, he lacks the makeup of his Dad and Grandfather, that being genuine, liking and taking an interest in people. This is a big part along with football smarts that made this team great.

Dwinsgames
12-09-2013, 12:06 AM
Dwins I don't think there is a fan alive who doesn't want the team to run the ball better. My beef with Art II is trust. IMO, he lacks the makeup of his Dad and Grandfather, that being a genuine liking and interest in people. This is a big part along with football smarts that made this team great.

that is not what he is being accused of over and over again by the one poster who was pointed out ...

Hell I could care less what people think if it is backed up by what they consider strong logic and fact , but I do take offense when they just make it up as they go along to fit their argument or in this case make their argument ...

base it on facts or feelings that is fine but do not make up shit and try and pass it off as fact and in the process taint other peoples minds with made up bullshit

Shoes
12-09-2013, 12:07 AM
that is not what he is being accused of over and over again by the one poster who was pointed out ...

Hell I could care less what people think if it is backed up by what they consider strong logic and fact , but I do take offense when they just make it up as they go along to fit their argument or in this case make their argument ...

base it on facts or feelings that is fine but do not make up shit and try and pass it off as fact and in the process taint other peoples minds with made up bullshit

:chuckle:

X-Terminator
12-09-2013, 12:26 AM
This too. Does anybody really believe Haley was hired by Tomlin? Really?

He was 100% Art's hand-picked OC. No doubt in my mind.


Because Haley isn't a good fit for this team or is just bad at his job doesn't mean that Art II is constantly intervening.

We get it, you think Art is the Devil incarnate.

Sorry but because he may have overstepped his bounds one time as managing partner or whatever you want to call him, doesn't make him the worst person in the world in my book.

Hopefully Haley is fired after this season and a better choice is made next time for OC.

Art II isn't the Devil's Incarnate, but he does deserve some of the blame for what's happened to the team. Is Tomlin part of the problem? Does he deserve blame? Yes and yes. However, there are FAR more problems with this team - very glaring and serious problems - that simply firing the HC will not fix.

Firing Tomlin alone will not fix the OL.
Firing Tomlin alone will not fix the offense's inconsistency.
Firing Tomlin alone will not fix the defense.
Firing Tomlin alone will not fix the overall lack of talent on the team.
Firing Tomlin alone will not fix the salary cap problems.
Firing Tomlin alone will not and does not absolve Art II of blame for his meddling, and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

So many fans think think otherwise that it's no wonder why I'm always so flippant about this. We need to look at ALL of the parts involved, not just one guy.

jb500ex
12-09-2013, 05:48 AM
Cowher got 2 back-to-back losing seasons, 3 straight non-playoff seasons and 4 non-playoff seasons in six years and he didn't get canned. What's more, he won a "he goes or I go" showdown with the GM at the time in the midst of it all. A GM, according to some, who is heads-and-tails better than the current one. And Cowher still didn't have a Super Bowl win on his résumé at that point.

Tomlin gets at least 2 more years. If things haven't improved by then, I think he will be let go. As X-T has pointed out (and I fully agree), the team is paying the piper for trying to win another Super Bowl with the "old guard" instead of letting aging players go as they traditionally would. And the decision to do that was made above Tomlin's head.
When did cowher miss the playoffs 3 out of his first 7 seasons with a franchise qb? It's stupid to keep going at things the same way if there's a problem.

zulater
12-09-2013, 06:14 AM
He was 100% Art's hand-picked OC. No doubt in my mind.



Art II isn't the Devil's Incarnate, but he does deserve some of the blame for what's happened to the team. Is Tomlin part of the problem? Does he deserve blame? Yes and yes. However, there are FAR more problems with this team - very glaring and serious problems - that simply firing the HC will not fix.

Firing Tomlin alone will not fix the OL.
Firing Tomlin alone will not fix the offense's inconsistency.
Firing Tomlin alone will not fix the defense.
Firing Tomlin alone will not fix the overall lack of talent on the team.
Firing Tomlin alone will not fix the salary cap problems.
Firing Tomlin alone will not and does not absolve Art II of blame for his meddling, and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

So many fans think think otherwise that it's no wonder why I'm always so flippant about this. We need to look at ALL of the parts involved, not just one guy.


It's not about blame. It's about what the best way to go about fixing the problem is. And even if we suggest that the best potential fix for this team might come from a coach outside the organization it doesn't mean we don't respect what Tomlin's done or his ability's as a coach.

Perfect example is Andy Reid and the Eagles and the Chiefs. Andy's message had grown old and tired in Philly. Yes he was and is a good coach but had he stayed in Philadelphia it would have been bad for everyone. The players were tuning him out. Anyway fast forward a year and the Eagles under Chip Kelly have rediscovered their mojo. Meanwhile Andy moves on to K.C. and proves it wasn't ever that he couldn't coach, just that his time in Philly was up.

So maybe that's part of what's going on here? Maybe an outside voice can get Troy to play more disciplined? Maybe an outsider can get players to reach down and get a little more out of themselves? ? Be more focused and on task.


Anyway I'm certainly not calling for Tomlin's job yet. But I think he has to come up with a plan to get this team righted. Either we need to see improvement next year or we at least have to see some form of a road map back to contention being put into place. If we follow this season with another of continued decline then I think you have to consider long and hard what Tomlin's status with this team is past 2014.

one side only
12-09-2013, 07:57 AM
Love this line from Dejan Kovacevic's column in this morning's Trib, "Tomlin, who couldn't manage a clock with an apprenticeship at a watch repair shop . . . "

The question in the thread's title answers itself. Of course, Tomlin's part of what needs to be fixed. This team and its performance reflects its leadership.

Should he be fired? Yes, as part of a massive housecleaning. Will he be fired? No.

fansince'76
12-09-2013, 08:30 AM
When did cowher miss the playoffs 3 out of his first 7 seasons with a franchise qb? It's stupid to keep going at things the same way if there's a problem.

Please. Cowher is the one who stubbornly stuck with Kordell Stewart as "his guy" for FIVE years. Cowher is the one who wanted to draft Shawn Andrews in 2004 before Dan Rooney stepped in and insisted on taking Roethlisberger instead. Cowher is the one who stubbornly insisted for more than a decade that he could win it all without a franchise QB and treated the QB position as an afterthought.

Give it a rest with the "Cowher didn't have a franchise QB" bullshit already, because Cowher himself was the main reason why he DIDN'T have one. :coffee:

steelreserve
12-09-2013, 10:48 AM
Please. Cowher is the one who stubbornly stuck with Kordell Stewart as "his guy" for FIVE years. Cowher is the one who wanted to draft Shawn Andrews in 2004 before Dan Rooney stepped in and insisted on taking Roethlisberger instead. Cowher is the one who stubbornly insisted for more than a decade that he could win it all without a franchise QB and treated the QB position as an afterthought.

Give it a rest with the "Cowher didn't have a franchise QB" bullshit already, because Cowher himself was the main reason why he DIDN'T have one. :coffee:

Wait, wait ... does that mean it ordinarily DOESN'T take 26 years to replace a franchise quarterback, then? Since that also comes up all the time.

NCSteeler
12-09-2013, 11:14 AM
Tomlin is certainly part of the problem, gameday management, sloppy un prepared players. But he will not be fired. one more year to do something then it's time to go. I don't care if we have a down year that happens, but loosing because of poor coaching sucks. The last three years have been marked with sloppy undisciplined play, that's on the coach.

On a side note I agree that Lebeau is not done, his scheme is not washed up. His players just don't fit. For starters a 3-4 DOES NOT work without a solid NT, Ike has lost a step with injuries, a rookie MLBer and 2 safeties that were out of position more than not all season.

Poor management from the top down, who makes the decisions? Who paid Sanders, DUH take the pick pass on screwing your Cap further, Who cut Dwyer? Who let Keenan walk without offering a deal(I am in the camp that believes he wanted to play in NO, BUT) make the man an offer let him at least turn it down.

NCSteeler
12-09-2013, 11:20 AM
Gee, I wonder who could be making those decisions? Certainly not anyone who was given a team because of who his daddy is!

No matter what people think of Art's intrusion yesterday it didn't matter , did it? Our stud RB on the sideline when it mattered. Maybe Art was right?


But it's not far less than astounding that with a 28-24 lead in the fourth quarter, on a snow-covered field, the Steelers' play-calls went, pass, pass, pass, pass, run, pass on one possession. Then pass, run, pass, pass, pass on a second.

That's against a Miami defense ranked 25th against the run.



Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/gene-collier/2013/12/09/Gene-Collier-Hazy-coaching-calls-darken-poor-season/stories/201312090063#ixzz2n00WnIGS

MrPgh
12-09-2013, 11:28 AM
No matter what people think of Art's intrusion yesterday it didn't matter , did it? Our stud RB on the sideline when it mattered. Maybe Art was right?

Considering the Steelers are 13-16 since Art II's decision to hire Haley, I'd hardly call him right. His intrusion has ruined two seasons.

As for yesterday against the Dolphins, the offense failed to hang onto the ball because of dumb penalties by offensive linemen. Otherwise, it's a first down on a catch by Cotchery putting the Steelers near scoring position.

Miami is ranked 25th against the run huh? What makes you think this Steeler team could take advantage of that giving how poorly they've run all year?

NCSteeler
12-09-2013, 11:32 AM
Considering the Steelers are 13-16 since Art II's decision to hire Haley, I'd hardly call him right. His intrusion has ruined two seasons.

As for yesterday against the Dolphins, the offense failed to hang onto the ball because of dumb penalties by offensive linemen. Otherwise, it's a first down on a catch by Cotchery putting the Steelers near scoring position.

Miami is ranked 25th against the run huh? What makes you think this Steeler team could take advantage of that giving how poorly they've run all year?

1st quarter results?

zulater
12-09-2013, 11:41 AM
Tomlin is certainly part of the problem, gameday management, sloppy un prepared players. But he will not be fired. one more year to do something then it's time to go. I don't care if we have a down year that happens, but loosing because of poor coaching sucks. The last three years have been marked with sloppy undisciplined play, that's on the coach.

On a side note I agree that Lebeau is not done, his scheme is not washed up. His players just don't fit. For starters a 3-4 DOES NOT work without a solid NT, Ike has lost a step with injuries, a rookie MLBer and 2 safeties that were out of position more than not all season.

Poor management from the top down, who makes the decisions? Who paid Sanders, DUH take the pick pass on screwing your Cap further, Who cut Dwyer? Who let Keenan walk without offering a deal(I am in the camp that believes he wanted to play in NO, BUT) make the man an offer let him at least turn it down.

Good post. :applaudit:


Additionally, If it's never the coaches fault why do NFL coaches get paid so much? And I believe Tomlin is in the upper echelon when it comes to pay. A baseball manager writes out a lineup card and decides when to go to the bull pen and who to bring out. I could take any hardcore baseball fan and put them in the managers chair for a week at midseason and there would be little or any falloff in that time.

But even the most hardcore football fan couldn't make up a game plan, offense or defense, or break down an opponents game film and find their strengths and weaknesses. This is why NFL coaching matters. This is why a Jim Harbaugh can come in and immediately win with the same roster a poor coach couldn't do shit with. This is why the Saints were a bad team without Sean Payton and a genuine Super Bowl contender with him back. And this is why the deflecting of blame away from Teflon Tomlin irks me. This is not a 5-8 roster! We might not be legitimate Super Bowl contenders, but don't try to tell me that we don't have better talent than Jets! (6-7) That our talent is only one game better than the Jaguars!(4-8) etc... etc... etc...

This team lacks focus, star players get away with undisciplined play. ( hello Troy) Hell even most of our offensive line issues yesterday didn't come from emergency insertions, it was Foster killing a promising drive being illegally downfield on a screen. It was DeCastro taking a huge penalty. It was Marcus Gilbert getting beat like a drum play after play.

And who's fault is it that we don't even have a punter that can even be trusted to get the ball off in time? Who cut the second year guy who had an excellent pre-season and training camp so he could put a Patriot cast off back there to start the season?

Tomlin's grade for this year is at best a D+. The thought of giving him at least two more years no matter what is absurd!

Give him next season, but let him know going in that another sub standard coaching job by him will be met by immediate dismissal following the 2014 season.

one side only
12-09-2013, 12:23 PM
What are Tomlin's strengths? What is he known for? He had 5 jobs in 5 years as a college assistant. He charmed his way onto Dungy's staff and helped Tampa win a Super Bowl. He gets a one-year DC gig and then through what was reported as a mindblowing interview, gets hired by the Steelers. Is he known as an innovator? A motivator? A strategist? A game day tactician? He is reportedly so much smarter than everyone around him. As a fan, I just don't see it. If he were to become available, and you were a GM, would you hire him? If so, why?

XxKnightxX
12-09-2013, 02:10 PM
What are Tomlin's strengths? What is he known for? He had 5 jobs in 5 years as a college assistant. He charmed his way onto Dungy's staff and helped Tampa win a Super Bowl. He gets a one-year DC gig and then through what was reported as a mindblowing interview, gets hired by the Steelers. Is he known as an innovator? A motivator? A strategist? A game day tactician? He is reportedly so much smarter than everyone around him. As a fan, I just don't see it. If he were to become available, and you were a GM, would you hire him? If so, why?

Because he vows to unleash hell on his opponents.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

fansince'76
12-09-2013, 02:14 PM
Wait, wait ... does that mean it ordinarily DOESN'T take 26 years to replace a franchise quarterback, then? Since that also comes up all the time.

It took the Broncos 13 years, and only because they broke the bank on an already established all-time great in the twilight of his career. The Dolphins have been looking for one for 14 years (jury's still out on Tannehill). The Bills have been looking for 17 years. The Bears have NEVER had one in the modern era.

In other words, it's really not that easy. It's even harder when your draft focus is on anything but a QB (see pretty much the entirety of Cowher's tenure and the second half of Noll's tenure after the swing-and-miss on Malone in the first round of the '80 draft). Also factor in that at any given time, more than half of the starting QBs in the NFL are hot garbage.

fansince'76
12-09-2013, 02:32 PM
Tomlin's grade for this year is at best a D+. The thought of giving him at least two more years no matter what is absurd!


Why is it absurd? When this team went from 2-6 to 5-6 and back into the thick of the AFC wildcard race, all of this talk ceased. They lose two heartbreakers to fall back to 5-8 and all of a sudden he sucks and can't do anything right and needs to be fired toot sweet again. Rail on us "Tomlin apologists" all you want, but this bipolar knee-jerk emotional overreaction is EXACTLY why the Redskins are a mess (and will more than likely remain a mess) - because they have a Redskins fan as an owner who actually has enough money to realize his armchair GM ambitions and who runs the team on emotional whim. It's also why AR II's sudden meddling in the last couple of years is concerning.

Want an example of what I'm talking about? Here it is:


The Washington Redskins are expected to pursue Baylor's Art Briles should they fire Mike Shanahan, according to league sources.

Not only are the strugging Redskins (3-10) losing, there also is a fractured relationship between coach Mike Shanahan and ownership. With Shanahan's partnership with quarterback Robert Griffin III also in peril, the club is likely to part with Shanahan, perhaps as soon as Monday. Once that happens, several league sources believe Baylor's Art Briles will be one of their targets.

Briles coached Griffin in college and maintains a strong connection with the QB and his family. While Briles recently agreed to an extension to remain at the school, it doesn't render a move to the NFL impossible. Briles proved uniquely able to handle Griffin's ego, unique playing style and health concerns while at Baylor, and also managed Griffin's parents and inner-circle, who have gone public at times -- voicing issues with Shanahan.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24369054/redskins-likely-to-pursue-baylors-briles-griffins-college-coach-if-shanahan-is-fired

Yeah, that certainly doesn't have "Steve Spurrier redux" written all over it or anything. I wonder if Snyder will make Briles the highest-paid coach in NFL history right out of the gate (like he did with Spurrier at the time) as well?

steelreserve
12-09-2013, 02:44 PM
Tomlin is certainly part of the problem, gameday management, sloppy un prepared players. But he will not be fired. one more year to do something then it's time to go. I don't care if we have a down year that happens, but loosing because of poor coaching sucks. The last three years have been marked with sloppy undisciplined play, that's on the coach.

On a side note I agree that Lebeau is not done, his scheme is not washed up. His players just don't fit. For starters a 3-4 DOES NOT work without a solid NT, Ike has lost a step with injuries, a rookie MLBer and 2 safeties that were out of position more than not all season.

Poor management from the top down, who makes the decisions? Who paid Sanders, DUH take the pick pass on screwing your Cap further, Who cut Dwyer? Who let Keenan walk without offering a deal(I am in the camp that believes he wanted to play in NO, BUT) make the man an offer let him at least turn it down.

I couldn't agree with you more. More often than not under Tomlin, we are simply not ready for the season, and pay the price for it. This year was possibly the worst I've ever seen it. We looked like crap all preseason - "OH, NO, NO, THERE'S NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT, IT'S JUST PRESEASON GAMES, THEY DON'T COUNT" - and then when the real season started, guess what, we were completely unprepared. I don't know what they do all training camp and all through preseason, but there's no excuse for that. Other teams don't do that. They might be bad for other reasons, but it's not often you see a whole team go through the first half a season looking like they barely even know the playbook. It was embarrassing, is what it was.

I also don't think Lebeau is "done" necessarily, but I think he deserves a lot of the blame for the state of things. It's not that the front office is just handing him players out of the blue and they happen not to fit. His fingerprints are all over the draft; I have no doubt he's heavily involved. The issue is that he's trying to force-draft for a 3-4 defense when the players aren't available to do it. The fact is that other teams started copycatting us about 7 or 8 years ago and taking the best players for the 3-4, and instead of doing something about it, for some reason we thought the smart thing to do was to stand pat and try the same thing with worse players. Whoops. Now we ended up with no good NT, a bunch of overdrafted defensive linemen and pass rushers, a lot of "converted DEs," a shortage of good ILBs, and an aging secondary that's liable to get burned when you take risks. Or in other words, a general personnel mix that is downright horrible for a 3-4 - I mean, I don't think you could pick a much worse square-peg-round-hole setup if you tried - but it would make an acceptable 4-3. So what's the smart things to do now? Oh, right, still stick with the 3-4.

Don't get me wrong, I still have great respect for LeBeau as far as getting results out of what he has on hand - I mean, making a 3-4 even remotely work in this situation takes some skill. But his absolute refusal to adapt to the circumstances has set the team back years from a personnel perspective. It could still be saved with a change in tactics; I'm not saying necessarily straight 4-3, maybe a hybrid kind of scheme or something new entirely; but what's clear is that this is bullshit and is not working. At some point, he's got to see that and say "what the hell am I doing," or else yes, that's the game passing you by.

st33lersguy
12-09-2013, 03:13 PM
I think Tomlin is part of the problem. I don't see much command with the team and he has too many flaws. Also playing down to his competition is something he does habitually. I really don't think he is the type of guy that can build a new team.

vader29
12-09-2013, 03:18 PM
Why is it absurd? When this team went from 2-6 to 5-6 and back into the thick of the AFC wildcard race, all of this talk ceased. They lose two heartbreakers to fall back to 5-8 and all of a sudden he sucks and can't do anything right and needs to be fired toot sweet again. Rail on us "Tomlin apologists" all you want, but this bipolar knee-jerk emotional overreaction is EXACTLY why the Redskins are a mess (and will more than likely remain a mess) - because they have a Redskins fan as an owner who actually has enough money to realize his armchair GM ambitions and who runs the team on emotional whim. It's also why AR II's sudden meddling in the last couple of years is concerning.

Want an example of what I'm talking about? Here it is:



http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24369054/redskins-likely-to-pursue-baylors-briles-griffins-college-coach-if-shanahan-is-fired

Yeah, that certainly doesn't have "Steve Spurrier redux" written all over it or anything. I wonder if Snyder will make Briles the highest-paid coach in NFL history right out of the gate (like he did with Spurrier at the time) as well?
I wouldn't mind seeing Shanahan come here as offensive coordinator if he doesn't get another head coaching job somewhere else.

zulater
12-09-2013, 03:45 PM
Why is it absurd? When this team went from 2-6 to 5-6 and back into the thick of the AFC wildcard race, all of this talk ceased. They lose two heartbreakers to fall back to 5-8 and all of a sudden he sucks and can't do anything right and needs to be fired toot sweet again. Rail on us "Tomlin apologists" all you want, but this bipolar knee-jerk emotional overreaction is EXACTLY why the Redskins are a mess (and will more than likely remain a mess) - because they have a Redskins fan as an owner who actually has enough money to realize his armchair GM ambitions and who runs the team on emotional whim. It's also why AR II's sudden meddling in the last couple of years is concerning.

Want an example of what I'm talking about? Here it is:



http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24369054/redskins-likely-to-pursue-baylors-briles-griffins-college-coach-if-shanahan-is-fired

Yeah, that certainly doesn't have "Steve Spurrier redux" written all over it or anything. I wonder if Snyder will make Briles the highest-paid coach in NFL history right out of the gate (like he did with Spurrier at the time) as well?

So say we go 7-9 or worse in 2014. That makes two straight losing seasons, (assuming at least one more loss this year), three straight non playoff seasons, and 4 straight years without a playoff win. And you just want to rubber stamp another what 3, 4, 5 years of Tomlin?

Just because you dismiss one coach in 40 years doesn't all of a sudden make you the Redskins or the Bills. It means you're getting rid of one coach who for whatever reason lost his message with the players.

So by your logic no one good is going to want to coach the Steelers? Or maybe there's no good coaches to hire? Or all of a sudden they've become morons and don't know how to conduct a coaching search?

Tomlin's the only guy who can ever coach the Steelers again until he decides to retire in 30 years? That the point? :doh:

And I never said close the door. I'm saying he needs to show something more in order to be brought back. I don't see how anyone can claim Tomlin had a good year this season?

I need to see the team showing some sign they're moving in the right direction next year more than anything else. I never really even mentioned a winning record specifically. When did showing signs of improvement after 3 straight years of decline become too much to ask of a coach?

fansince'76
12-09-2013, 04:03 PM
So say we go 7-9 or worse in 2014. That makes two straight losing seasons, (assuming at least one more loss this year), three straight non playoff seasons, and 4 straight years without a playoff win. And you just want to rubber stamp another what 3, 4, 5 years of Tomlin?

Just because you dismiss one coach in 40 years doesn't all of a sudden make you the Redskins or the Bills. It means you're getting rid of one coach who for whatever reason lost his message with the players.

So by your logic no one good is going to want to coach the Steelers? Or maybe there's no good coaches to hire? Or all of a sudden they've become morons and don't know how to conduct a coaching search?

Tomlin's the only guy who can ever coach the Steelers again until he decides to retire in 30 years? That the point? :doh:

Where did I say any of that?

From my first post (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/18913-Can-Mike-Tomlin-fix-the-Steelers-or-is-he-part-of-what-needs-fixing?p=412267&viewfull=1#post412267) in this thread:


Tomlin gets at least 2 more years. If things haven't improved by then, I think he will be let go.

Translation: If things stay the way they are or worsen, he's gone after 2015. You are giving him a deadline of the end of next year. We're really not as far apart on this as you think.

zulater
12-09-2013, 04:09 PM
Where did I say any of that?

From my first post (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/18913-Can-Mike-Tomlin-fix-the-Steelers-or-is-he-part-of-what-needs-fixing?p=412267&viewfull=1#post412267) in this thread:



Translation: If things stay the way they are or worsen, he's gone after 2015. You are giving him a deadline of the end of next year. We're really not as far apart on this as you think.

The thing is I'm sure you're right in as much as the Steelers wont fire Tomlin next season no matter how poorly the team performs or how much the team falls into disarray. He will almost certainly be given at least two more bad seasons, maybe even three, being as how they're married to their never fire a coach legacy.

I'm just telling you what I would do. The standard I would hold him to in order to keep him past next season.

Dwinsgames
12-09-2013, 04:17 PM
Considering the Steelers are 13-16 since Art II's decision to hire Haley, I'd hardly call him right. His intrusion has ruined two seasons.



so now its not since Arts proclamation of we need to run the ball more effectively and instead since he hired Haley , when Tomlin is on record for making the hire ....

So Tomlin is not only a bad coach , but also a bad game manager , bad conductor of interviews and man in charge of hiring his staff but a liar as well ?

gotcha troll

you have cut down Ownership
you have cut down the HC
you have cut down the OC
you have cut down the DC
you have cut down GM

what part of this team is it you like again ? the colors perhaps or is there something wrong with them too

steelreserve
12-09-2013, 04:47 PM
It took the Broncos 13 years, and only because they broke the bank on an already established all-time great in the twilight of his career. The Dolphins have been looking for one for 14 years (jury's still out on Tannehill). The Bills have been looking for 17 years. The Bears have NEVER had one in the modern era.

In other words, it's really not that easy. It's even harder when your draft focus is on anything but a QB (see pretty much the entirety of Cowher's tenure and the second half of Noll's tenure after the swing-and-miss on Malone in the first round of the '80 draft). Also factor in that at any given time, more than half of the starting QBs in the NFL are hot garbage.

Dude ... before Tannehill, the Dolphins hadn't drafted a QB in the first round since Marino. The Bills drafted one QB in the first round since Kelly, which was J.P. Losman ... IIRC even at the time that was thought of as a desperation pick when all the good QBs were off the board. And Denver's QB situation has actually been not bad. Plummer and then Cutler certainly weren't at Elway's level, but they were good enough to lead a contender.

All that really goes to show is that yes, if you dick around for 20 years without trying to get a good QB, you probably won't get a good QB. Or if you go about it in a dumb way, you probably won't get a good QB.

The Bears just suck at quarterbacks, is all I can say.

fansince'76
12-09-2013, 05:17 PM
Dude ... before Tannehill, the Dolphins hadn't drafted a QB in the first round since Marino. The Bills drafted one QB in the first round since Kelly, which was J.P. Losman ... IIRC even at the time that was thought of as a desperation pick when all the good QBs were off the board. And Denver's QB situation has actually been not bad. Plummer and then Cutler certainly weren't at Elway's level, but they were good enough to lead a contender.

All that really goes to show is that yes, if you dick around for 20 years without trying to get a good QB, you probably won't get a good QB. Or if you go about it in a dumb way, you probably won't get a good QB.

The Bears just suck at quarterbacks, is all I can say.

I still don't think it's nearly that simple. Like I said, for 32 starting QBs in any given year in the NFL, only about a dozen of them are truly worth a shit and can be considered bona fide franchise QBs. Few QBs are taken in the first round in general because very few college QBs are actually worth taking that kind of gamble on in the first place (and more of them than not wash out - usually because they've been drafted by a really shitty team to begin with and they are thrown to the wolves immediately). That is why the QB classes of '83 and '04 were so special - they occur about as regularly as a blue moon.

LLT
12-09-2013, 05:28 PM
I still don't think it's nearly that simple. Like I said, for 32 starting QBs in any given year in the NFL, only about a dozen of them are truly worth a shit and can be considered bona fide franchise QBs. Few QBs are taken in the first round in general because very few college QBs are actually worth taking that kind of gamble on in the first place (and more of them than not wash out). That is why the QB classes of '83 and '04 were so special - they occur about as regularly as a blue moon.

BINGO!!!! The college formula (because not every player is "elite"), is to find a "system" in which your teams strengths can be translated into success. Therefore you have players who get drafted into the NFL who wash out because they are products of those systems and NOT individual talented enough to play in the pros. The flip side of that is that there are VERY good players playing on bad teams who get lost in the W/L stats.

Dwinsgames
12-09-2013, 05:43 PM
you do not have to have a " franchise QB " to be mediocre in this league . if mediocrity is considered good enough then field a balanced team so several players have the ability to be " the man " to play over his head that week to get you a W ......

in other words , what good is a " franchise QB " if you are playing year after year for 2nd or 3rd place in your division .....

we as a team have far to much money spent on to few of players leaving us void of enough talent team wide to compete week in and week out , the only way that sort of mentality works out for teams is when they draft exceedingly well in stretches ( not once in that rare blue moon ) ... we have not had those stretches of good to superior drafts and have had to let what talented players we did get go elsewhere in FA because of it ....

you can not over pay for any one facet of the team without another area suffering , only so much money to go around ....



Is Josh McCown a franchise QB ? NO , but he sure is putting up the numbers of one because he has a good running game



. G
GS
Comp
Att
Pct
Yds
Avg
TD
Int
Sck
SckY
Rate
Att
Yds
Avg
TD
FUM
Lost




2013
Chicago Bears (http://www.nfl.com/teams/chicagobears/profile?team=CHI)
6
4
120
184
65.2
1,461
7.9
9
1
10
30
103.6
9
56
6.2
0
2
1






tonight alone ...
Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT
J. McCown 27/36 348 4 0



this guy bounced around the league for several years never really finding a home let alone a starting job ... systems make the Player not the other way around

ALLD
12-09-2013, 06:16 PM
I hope five years from now in retrospect, the high point of Tomlin's career with the Steelers was not 2008 with somebody else's players.

Devilsdancefloor
12-09-2013, 09:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYIL8C9YO8E


i think this is part of the problem with coach T

60_MINUTES
12-09-2013, 10:12 PM
Bingo devils dance floor. U are spot on. It's no different than being a parent. When u have a mom trying to dress and hang out with her 16 year old daughter as best friends. That daughter will never listen or respect her . A coach who is one of the boys. One of them as James says will have no respect.

Also for those that think mike gets two more years no matter what your dead wrong. If he gets this year he will not get another one if we finish outside the playoffs again.

And please enough with the cowher comparisons. Tomlin is losing and losing bad with a HOF QB in his prime. Period.... The reason mike loses is the direction of who he wants to play for him. He's all about speed and talent guys. Not football guys.

U want a comparison here it is

Tomlins idea of a DT. Ziggi hood ( run a good 40 and is a gym rat )
cowher idea. Arron smith ( no explanation needed )
tomlin idea of WR. ( mike all speed all about me Wallace )
cowher idea Hines ward. A football player
tomlin wants David Johnson
cowher. Heath miller
Tomlin. Carry Davis Frank summers
cowher. John Whitman. Dan KREIDER
tomlin takes Jason worilds ( his pick by his admission who is finally in a contract year showing signs of life )
instead of Sean lee.

Bottom line is its a completely different team. And since the cowher guys are gone we are now left with no identity and a team full of kids. Not football team first guys.

IMO mike Tomlin is not the answer and needs to go. We shall see how it shakes out

steelreserve
12-09-2013, 11:15 PM
I still don't think it's nearly that simple. Like I said, for 32 starting QBs in any given year in the NFL, only about a dozen of them are truly worth a shit and can be considered bona fide franchise QBs. Few QBs are taken in the first round in general because very few college QBs are actually worth taking that kind of gamble on in the first place (and more of them than not wash out - usually because they've been drafted by a really shitty team to begin with and they are thrown to the wolves immediately). That is why the QB classes of '83 and '04 were so special - they occur about as regularly as a blue moon.

I'm not saying it's simple to find a good QB. I just don't think it's as difficult as the once-in-a-lifetime event some people make it out to be. There are probably an average of 1 or 2 a year. Remember, I'm talking QBs good enough to contend with, not necessarily Hall of Famers.

No, you're probably not going to be able to just go out and find one whenever you choose just by spending a first-round pick; that's how you end up with J.P. Lohsman. There's definitely timing and luck involved, and maybe it takes 3 years or 5 years and a trade at the right time or something. But it's not like you are completely helpless to affect the process and you just have to sit there waiting for them to come to you. You're also not going to get a date with the prom queen if you spend all your free time dicking around playing Dungeons & Dragons instead. But that's a choice that teams make for whatever reason.

Dwinsgames
12-09-2013, 11:29 PM
I'm not saying it's simple to find a good QB. I just don't think it's as difficult as the once-in-a-lifetime event some people make it out to be. There are probably an average of 1 or 2 a year. Remember, I'm talking QBs good enough to contend with, not necessarily Hall of Famers.

No, you're probably not going to be able to just go out and find one whenever you choose just by spending a first-round pick; that's how you end up with J.P. Lohsman. There's definitely timing and luck involved, and maybe it takes 3 years or 5 years and a trade at the right time or something. But it's not like you are completely helpless to affect the process and you just have to sit there waiting for them to come to you. You're also not going to get a date with the prom queen if you spend all your free time dicking around playing Dungeons & Dragons instead. But that's a choice that teams make for whatever reason.

Josh McCown was unemployed a few months ago , after 6 or 7 games in relief of Cutler it does not look to me like Cutler is going to get his job back when he is healthy

tonight
Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT
J. McCown 27/36 348 4 0

for the year QB rating well over 100 13 TDs 1 int , the key is a good running game that teams have to respect ... so no it does not take years to find a good QB it just takes diligence and a game plan that allows him to be effective

X-Terminator
12-10-2013, 12:10 AM
It's not about blame. It's about what the best way to go about fixing the problem is. And even if we suggest that the best potential fix for this team might come from a coach outside the organization it doesn't mean we don't respect what Tomlin's done or his ability's as a coach.

Perfect example is Andy Reid and the Eagles and the Chiefs. Andy's message had grown old and tired in Philly. Yes he was and is a good coach but had he stayed in Philadelphia it would have been bad for everyone. The players were tuning him out. Anyway fast forward a year and the Eagles under Chip Kelly have rediscovered their mojo. Meanwhile Andy moves on to K.C. and proves it wasn't ever that he couldn't coach, just that his time in Philly was up.

So maybe that's part of what's going on here? Maybe an outside voice can get Troy to play more disciplined? Maybe an outsider can get players to reach down and get a little more out of themselves? ? Be more focused and on task.


Anyway I'm certainly not calling for Tomlin's job yet. But I think he has to come up with a plan to get this team righted. Either we need to see improvement next year or we at least have to see some form of a road map back to contention being put into place. If we follow this season with another of continued decline then I think you have to consider long and hard what Tomlin's status with this team is past 2014.

So basically what you are asking for, besides a change in direction, is a change in message? If so, then I really can't argue against it. A change in message is one of the bigger reasons why I want Dan Bylsma fired, so I can relate to that. It was pretty obvious after last season that the message had been lost. However, I still believe that if they don't fix all of the other problems, it won't matter who is coaching the team.

Anyway, I guess you can put me in the "if there's no improvement next season, then he should be let go" category. I want to see what he does with a healthy, or at least a healthier, team. That way, there are no excuses. If the team is still mediocre, then I think you have to consider firing him. And believe me, it took a LOT to get me to admit that, because you know how I feel about the knee-jerk "fire the HC" sentiment from so much of the fan base.

zulater
12-10-2013, 04:14 AM
Josh McCown was unemployed a few months ago , after 6 or 7 games in relief of Cutler it does not look to me like Cutler is going to get his job back when he is healthy

tonight
Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT
J. McCown 27/36 348 4 0

for the year QB rating well over 100 13 TDs 1 int , the key is a good running game that teams have to respect ... so no it does not take years to find a good QB it just takes diligence and a game plan that allows him to be effective

Ah the old fools gold based on a few good games trick. Aka as the Scott Mitchell, Tommy Maddox effect.

You give these kinda qb's a few games, maybe even a season, and it all looks great. But the more film that's put out there, the longer they're exposed to the light the worse it gets. And you dedicate a strong overall team to one of these guys long term and you end up like Kotite with the Jets when he married himself to Neil O'Donnell.

Put me down for no thanks here. I'd rather try to figure out a way to reboot the defense and give Ben a few more years.

Aussie_steeler
12-10-2013, 05:00 AM
What are Tomlin's strengths? What is he known for? He had 5 jobs in 5 years as a college assistant. He charmed his way onto Dungy's staff and helped Tampa win a Super Bowl. He gets a one-year DC gig and then through what was reported as a mindblowing interview, gets hired by the Steelers. Is he known as an innovator? A motivator? A strategist? A game day tactician? He is reportedly so much smarter than everyone around him. As a fan, I just don't see it. If he were to become available, and you were a GM, would you hire him? If so, why?

Exactly what I am thinking. I believe that Tomlin is all Smoke and Mirrors and his lack of real football knowledge and experience is finally catching up with him.

With great talent (management, coaching and player personnel) around you it is very easy to achieve success by relying on the system and also being a great motivator.

However when faced with adversity, the true measure of a persons capacity is highlighted.

A very interesting comparison is that of Cowher and Tomlin. I think it really highlights their individual strengths, qualities, attributes and capacities.

As Players.

College Career
Cowher - Starting linebacker, team captain, team MVP at NC state
Tomlin - Split end tight end - William Mary

NFL Career
Cowher: 5 year career. 3 teams. primarily special teams player
Tomlin: nil

Coaching Career:
Cowher: 2 years Browns Special Teams coach
2 years Browns Secondary coach
3 years Chiefs Defensive co-ordinator

Tomlin: 1 year Virgina Military Wide Rec coach
1 year Memphis Grad Assist
1 year Arkansas State Wide Rec coach
1 year Arkansas State Def Backs coach
2 year Cincinatti Bearcats Def Backs coach
5 year Bucs Def Backs coach ( Rhonde Barber and John Lynch in the back field, who's coaching them really???)
1 year Vikings Defensive Co-ordinator ( first against run, last against the pass. Pat & Kevin Williams at DT.... no one is running their. Tomlin --- DB guru???)

Tomlin has had a dream run, right place / right time and obviously interviewed extremely well.

I believe his lack of real football knowledge is biting him on the ass now.


Is he totally to blame...... My answer is no.

I just think that his leadership skills lay entirely with his ability to motivate and inspire. How well is he doing this year.
If he indeed is having a say in picking personnel at the draft then I would add that he and Colbert are not doing too good a job their.

His coaching expertise as a defensive specialist has brought absolutely nothing to this roster. The only growth in Defensive back talent has occurred coincidentally with the arrival of Carnell Lake.

I can still remember the day coach Tomlin was hired. I eagerly awaited the decision. When it was announced I said " Mike Who". I had no idea who he was.

Looking back the tell tale sign of Tomlins true capacity was the staff that he assembled on his arrival. He brought no one with him. He rolled totally with Bill Cowhers staff. Why? to maintain continuity. In reality, he had been around long enough to have developed his own coaching philosophy, system, colleagues / disciples.

The more I type, the more he sounds like the Talented Mr Ripley to me. Ultimately, there is my answer to the OP.

X-Terminator
12-10-2013, 05:07 AM
Wow, has this thread really turned into a "Mike Tomlin is an uneducated moron" thread.

Should have known better, I guess.

And before anyone says I'm wrong, go back and look at some of the posts for proof.

You don't get to be a coach at the highest level of the game of football if you're an idiot who knows nothing about the sport. If you want to point out his flaws - and he has many - fine. But don't say he doesn't know anything about football. That is insulting on every possible level.

Count Steeler
12-10-2013, 06:11 AM
Wow, has this thread really turned into a "Mike Tomlin is an uneducated moron" thread.

Should have known better, I guess.

And before anyone says I'm wrong, go back and look at some of the posts for proof.

You don't get to be a coach at the highest level of the game of football if you're an idiot who knows nothing about the sport. If you want to point out his flaws - and he has many - fine. But don't say he doesn't know anything about football. That is insulting on every possible level.

And what does it say about the Steeler organization? Sure he impressed in the interview, but did the Steelers not check him out further?

My take, he is in the first real difficult situation of his coaching career. IF he doesn't Show signs of improvement next season, he should be gone.

But please, let's be real. A moron would not have accomplished what he has in his short tenure, even with a talented team.

X-Terminator
12-10-2013, 06:40 AM
And what does it say about the Steeler organization? Sure he impressed in the interview, but did the Steelers not check him out further?

My take, he is in the first real difficult situation of his coaching career. IF he doesn't Show signs of improvement next season, he should be gone.

But please, let's be real. A moron would not have accomplished what he has in his short tenure, even with a talented team.

If you want to say he lacked the experience for the job, OK. That is debatable. But the way people are running down his intelligence level or knowledge of the game...sorry, that's just ridiculous.

fansince'76
12-10-2013, 07:06 AM
And please enough with the cowher comparisons. Tomlin is losing and losing bad with a HOF QB in his prime. Period.... The reason mike loses is the direction of who he wants to play for him. He's all about speed and talent guys. Not football guys.

U want a comparison here it is

Tomlins idea of a DT. Ziggi hood ( run a good 40 and is a gym rat )
cowher idea. Arron smith ( no explanation needed )
tomlin idea of WR. ( mike all speed all about me Wallace )
cowher idea Hines ward. A football player
tomlin wants David Johnson
cowher. Heath miller
Tomlin. Carry Davis Frank summers
cowher. John Whitman. Dan KREIDER
tomlin takes Jason worilds ( his pick by his admission who is finally in a contract year showing signs of life )
instead of Sean lee.

Bottom line is its a completely different team. And since the cowher guys are gone we are now left with no identity and a team full of kids. Not football team first guys.

Do I really have to pull up the post of mine pointing out how many picks Cowher missed on the last time you made this argument?

zulater
12-10-2013, 07:27 AM
I think Tomlin's a good coach. If he and the Steelers do part ways he'll be unemployed all of 5 minutes. That said if it doesn't work out here past next season I think Tomlin's undoing was of his own making. I think he let the team get away from him. I think the veterans have essentially run this team for the past 5 years. A good indicator was the whole pool and ping pong table b.s. Tomlin should have nixed that as soon as it happened, but instead he took two weeks to figure out it was a divisive move by the veteran's and wouldn't do anything other than divide the club further into niche's.

Anyway I don't think the player's coach thing works over the long haul. The guys you trust the most will let you down the most. Because even though they like you, they wont drive themselves hard enough in practice and with their personal training..And will over time left to their own devices develop sloppy habits that will lead to poor fundamentals that will eventually manifest itself in such as things as poor tackling, and bad blocking technique, sloppy routes, etc.. Then you're left with an under-performing team that cant right itself.

And the thing is once you establish your self as a players coach no one takes you seriously when you take to the whip. I think you can go from hard ass and lighten up some like Coughlin did and that works. But to go from friend to dictator doesn't wash, and wont resonate once you're established.

Put Tomlin on a new team and he'll probably have learned from his time in Pittsburgh and will be hard and consistent from the get go with the core players.

And who knows get rid of some of the old guys here and maybe he can remake himself in time? I'm open to see how next year develops before judging Tomlin too harshly.

But just let me end with this. this team certainly has talent and injury issues. But they also are fundamentally inconsistent. The little things add up, and this teams overall lack of fundamentals, focus, and discipline have more to do with their record in my opinion than lack of talent and injuries. The coaching has to improve! And that's not saying the coaches have to be changed. They just have to do a better job preparing this team, and making sure that players are playing to their strengths and full ability.

Shoes
12-10-2013, 08:15 AM
Wow, has this thread really turned into a "Mike Tomlin is an uneducated moron" thread.

Should have known better, I guess.

And before anyone says I'm wrong, go back and look at some of the posts for proof.

You don't get to be a coach at the highest level of the game of football if you're an idiot who knows nothing about the sport. If you want to point out his flaws - and he has many - fine. But don't say he doesn't know anything about football. That is insulting on every possible level.

I agree there are more problems than Tomlin, and no one said "Mike Tomlin is an uneducated moron". He's just not qualified to be a HC imo. Head coaches come and go every year that couldn't cut it, and educated people are put in positions everyday that aren't qualified, just look around in daily life and behold the bunch in Washington DC! :chuckle:

NCSteeler
12-10-2013, 08:32 AM
I'm sorry but I doubt many teams will be clamoring for Tomln if he were out of work. He's an Ok coach and not much more .
I'll also say this I hate Billicheat, hate his demeanor, attitude and smugness, BUT his teams are solid on situation football, doing the little things right, he's always coaching them during games on the sideline and players clamor to go play there, but he's also a rarity. Still think they got a few of the SB rings via direct cheating but they are still a good football team, even on the decline the last few season, were much better than us. Nobody heard about Keenan waiting for an offer from us because he thought it was the best situation and best chance to win a SB?

X-Terminator
12-10-2013, 09:32 AM
I agree there are more problems than Tomlin, and no one said "Mike Tomlin is an uneducated moron". He's just not qualified to be a HC imo. Head coaches come and go every year that couldn't cut it, and educated people are put in positions everyday that aren't qualified, just look around in daily life and behold the bunch in Washington DC! :chuckle:

OK then, what would be your definition of "qualified?" Not being flippant or dissing you or anything, I'm genuinely curious. This question goes to everyone here.

And hell, it could be worse - we could have had Norv Turner as HC. He's the very definition of an educated guy who couldn't cut the mustard as a HC. Wade Phillips would be another one. And let's not forget our very own Dick LeBeau. His one stint as a HC didn't work out very well at all. All 3 of them would be considered "qualified" based on their track records as coordinators, yet all of them were miserable failures as head coaches.

Mojouw
12-10-2013, 10:37 AM
I think there is a problem of expectations here. Are the people posting that Tomlin is a moron, lacks football knowledge, can't identify and develop talent, etc actually think that the Steelers are a championship caliber team right now? I don't. I realistically think this team has 8-8 or 9-7 talent right now. Throw in all the offensive line injuries and the decline in DB performance due to Ike and Clark suddenly getting a case of the olds and what exactly are people expecting? Does anyone really think this roster should be going 10 and 6 or 12 and 4?

What I see is that ownership and potentially Tomlin forced out an innovative offensive coordinator who schemed according to the strengths of his personnel and replaced him with a coordinator who is putting a scheme in place regardless of strengths or weaknesses in the players. The team as a whole as "whiffed" on several high priced attempts to fix the deficiencies along the offensive line. Is that on Tomlin? If so then there is a problem. Is that on Colbert and the personnel guys? I don't know, the Steelers have stopped letting me sit in on player personnel meetings...weird.

On defense this team is a DB and DL away from returning to a high level. I think that some combination of Worilds, Jones, Timmons, another player, and Woodley can form a new core of LBs to drive the team. On offense, as soon as the line stabilizes, that whole unit will take off.

I think Tomlin's main weakness is that he hires crappy assistants.

Dwinsgames
12-10-2013, 11:07 AM
Ah the old fools gold based on a few good games trick. Aka as the Scott Mitchell, Tommy Maddox effect.

You give these kinda qb's a few games, maybe even a season, and it all looks great. But the more film that's put out there, the longer they're exposed to the light the worse it gets. And you dedicate a strong overall team to one of these guys long term and you end up like Kotite with the Jets when he married himself to Neil O'Donnell.

Put me down for no thanks here. I'd rather try to figure out a way to reboot the defense and give Ben a few more years.

don't put words in my mouth Zu , I can do that for myself just fine ....

the point of the post was this , nothing more and nothing less ...

you can win with a QB who is far from a franchise QB and you can make him look damn good in the process if you have the proper people around him and a running game teams have to respect

Psycho Ward 86
12-10-2013, 11:13 AM
I'm sorry but I doubt many teams will be clamoring for Tomln if he were out of work. He's an Ok coach and not much more .


Under Tomlin's guidance, Minnesota led the NFL in stopping the run and ranked eighth in the league in total defense. At Tampa Bay, he helped the Buccaneers lead the NFL in pass defense in 2004 and rank third in 2003.

In 2002, Tomlin guided Tampa Bay's defensive backfield that led the NFL in pass defense and interceptions (31), while limiting opposing passers to a 48.4 rating and just 10 touchdowns en route to winning Super Bowl XXXVII. The Buccaneers ranked fifth in the NFL in pass defense and second in interceptions (28) in 2001, Tomlin's first season in Tampa Bay."

hell of a resume as defensive coordinator and a DB Coach if you ask me...

fansince'76
12-10-2013, 11:19 AM
Let's get Jim Mora. If the team continues to suck, at least the post game rants will be entertaining. :lol:

"We got our asses kicked! In my opinion that sucked!"

Psycho Ward 86
12-10-2013, 11:25 AM
don't put words in my mouth Zu , I can do that for myself just fine ....

the point of the post was this , nothing more and nothing less ...

you can win with a QB who is far from a franchise QB and you can make him look damn good in the process if you have the proper people around him and a running game teams have to respect

To assume that josh mccown isnt a franchise QB is actually a very curious assumption imo. When you look at what Marc Trestman did for Rich Gannon's seemingly perpetual journeyman career (turning him into the NFL MVP and giving him by far the finest years of his career), its not hard to believe that he has done the same for Mccown. Granted, gannon obviously still had the better career up to that point.

Point being, lets not forget even Rich Gannon, who was surrounded by immense talent, and i think we can all assume he is better than McCown, still couldnt even come close to winning a superbowl. im a spoiled brat. i WANT to win it all, everytime we can. And history says you dont stand a chance unless you have a legendary surrounding cast like the Ravens a little over a decade ago

Dwinsgames
12-10-2013, 11:31 AM
hell of a resume as defensive coordinator and a DB Coach if you ask me...


some will say this ...

at Tampa his pass def was aided by a superior effort at getting after the QB with Sapp and Rice and they will have a point in doing so , and with the vikes it is hard run when you have 675 pounds of beef in the middle of the line that is basically unmovable and was so superior at stopping the run that propelled that D to number 8 overall and again they will have a valid point ...

but it is just as ignorant on the flip side to say Tomlin had nothing to do with how they performed .... he is a good motivator in small doses I just think his message get stale and as cliche as his pre game and post game pressers do .... but that is subjective and not everyone will agree with it

zulater
12-10-2013, 11:42 AM
don't put words in my mouth Zu , I can do that for myself just fine ....

the point of the post was this , nothing more and nothing less ...

you can win with a QB who is far from a franchise QB and you can make him look damn good in the process if you have the proper people around him and a running game teams have to respect

And my answer to that is we had some talented Steeler teams between 1994-2002 that rotted on the vine for lack of a franchise quarterback. I would venture to say that the 94, 95, 96, 97, and 01 teams probably all had better overall talent than any team Ben was on with the exception of the 2004 team.

So again no thank you to the "serviceable" quarterback on the solid overall team.

Given the right defensive fixes you can have this team ready to compete again in Ben's window of excellence.


With existing talent ,and health and direction the offense is already good enough and will be able to compete for a playoff berth next year.

You just need to fix the back end of the defense and find Larry Foote's replacement and the defense will be close to good enough too.

Dwinsgames
12-10-2013, 11:48 AM
And my answer to that is we had some talented Steeler teams between 1994-2002 that rotted on the vine for lack of a franchise quarterback. I would venture to say that the 94, 95, 96, 97, and 01 teams probably all had better overall talent than any team Ben was on with the exception of the 2004 team.

So again no thank you to the "serviceable" quarterback on the solid overall team.

Given the right defensive fixes you can have this team ready to compete again in Ben's window of excellence.


With existing talent ,and health and direction the offense is already good enough and will be able to compete for a playoff berth next year.

You just need to fix the back end of the defense and find Larry Foote's replacement and the defense will be close to good enough too.


I guess it all hinges on what your definition of serviceable is .... Kordell was not IMO serviceable , at least not in the capacity he was used in , perhaps some version of the Pistol he may have been but who knows for sure , as he was used as a drop back passer taking his best attribute away from him ( his legs not his arm ) then I must say unequivocally NO he was not serviceable ....

as a side note until this team has a legitimate NT that commands a double team no amount of players elsewhere on the def will make them good enough ..... it all starts in the 3-4 with the NT and filters to the linebackers for the pressure that eases the burden in the secondary

steelreserve
12-10-2013, 12:21 PM
OK then, what would be your definition of "qualified?" Not being flippant or dissing you or anything, I'm genuinely curious. This question goes to everyone here.

And hell, it could be worse - we could have had Norv Turner as HC. He's the very definition of an educated guy who couldn't cut the mustard as a HC. Wade Phillips would be another one. And let's not forget our very own Dick LeBeau. His one stint as a HC didn't work out very well at all. All 3 of them would be considered "qualified" based on their track records as coordinators, yet all of them were miserable failures as head coaches.

That's a very good question. I would say being "qualified" to be an NFL head coach is a lot like being "qualified" to be an NFL quarterback. Either you get it or you don't, and there is no magic formula to tell ahead of time.

Plenty of guys LOOK like they would make great head coaches. Norv Turner is a perfect example: Plenty of NFL experience, successful as an offensive coordinator, etc ... or how about a guy like Steve Spurrier: One of the most successful college coaches in the game, and ran a program that was for all intents and purposes just as big as an NFL team. But for whatever reason, neither of them could put it all together as an NFL head coach. Then you have other guys like Jim Harbaugh who were in the exact same position, and came in and did great. You can use background and qualifications "on paper" to make an educated guess about what kind of a coach someone is going to be, but that's all.

In Tomlin's case ... what I see is a guy who did OK at getting production out of an already-talented group of players, but sucks at building a team in the long term. Poor drafting and no player development; our preparation is poor at times, and I would say we have been pretty unimaginitive on both sides of the ball.

One last word about this. People always point to the Steelers' record of having coaches that stick around for decades as evidence that either a) Tomlin must know what he's doing because we don't get head coaching decisions wrong, or b) we will give him more time because we put a lot of faith in our coaches. To that I would refer to my first point, which is that even if it LOOKS like you hired a great coach, you don't know for sure what you're getting until you've seen a few years of him. We hired two great coaches in a row; maybe it was because we knew what we were doing, or maybe we were also unusually lucky. The 49ers were lucky enough to have two HOF quarterbacks in a row, but then they fucked up on the next 6 or 7. That kind of thing happens with a sample size of two. The other thing to consider is that it was a different owner doing the hiring for those two coaches. When that changes, so do the rules of the game, you know?

steelreserve
12-10-2013, 12:35 PM
Point being, lets not forget even Rich Gannon, who was surrounded by immense talent, and i think we can all assume he is better than McCown, still couldnt even come close to winning a superbowl. im a spoiled brat. i WANT to win it all, everytime we can. And history says you dont stand a chance unless you have a legendary surrounding cast like the Ravens a little over a decade ago

What do you mean he couldn't even come close to winning a Super Bowl? He went to the Super Bowl in 2002. Didn't win the game itself, but that's pretty close if you ask me.

There's a long list of pretty-good QBs who made it to the Super Bowl that I would say fall short of "franchise" or "elite." Matt Hasselbeck, Jake Delhomme, Kerry Collins, Stan Humphries, Chris Chandler, Drew Bledsoe, Steve McNair, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams ... and let's not forget our man Joe Flacco. I'm not even counting Trent Dilfer, Rex Grossman, and Brad Johnson, because I wouldn't even consider them pretty good; they just sucked.

So yes, it's rare to get to the Super Bowl with a QB who is actually BAD, unless the rest of the team is amazing. It's not that uncommon to get to the Super Bowl with a second-tier guy, and then once you're in, it's one game and anything can happen. The pretty-good and shitty QBs mentioned above had a combined record of 5-8 in the Super Bowl, which is about 40% - not great, but nothing to sneeze at for something that so many deem impossible.

Dwinsgames
12-10-2013, 12:40 PM
Do I really have to pull up the post of mine pointing out how many picks Cowher missed on the last time you made this argument?

NONE .......

Picks are the job of the GM with some influence from the HC based on what he feels his team needs are and whom ( of a group of players and the highlights they provide ) best fits his scheme but at the end of the day it is on the GM's resume of whom the selections are attributed because it is their scouting department that puts together the board that places all the potential selections in the spots they are in on the draft board ..when the College season is going on the HC's in the NFL do not have time to watch these games intently they are to busy working with their staff in preparation for their own game the following day

- - - Updated - - -

as a side note if the HCs had a ton to say guys from Hofstra and Fort valley state would never get picked because they are rarely on TV and they do not have enough time to watch film on every game or even from every team that has kids eligible for the draft

Psycho Ward 86
12-10-2013, 02:08 PM
What do you mean he couldn't even come close to winning a Super Bowl? He went to the Super Bowl in 2002. Didn't win the game itself, but that's pretty close if you ask me.

There's a long list of pretty-good QBs who made it to the Super Bowl that I would say fall short of "franchise" or "elite." Matt Hasselbeck, Jake Delhomme, Kerry Collins, Stan Humphries, Chris Chandler, Drew Bledsoe, Steve McNair, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams ... and let's not forget our man Joe Flacco. I'm not even counting Trent Dilfer, Rex Grossman, and Brad Johnson, because I wouldn't even consider them pretty good; they just sucked.

So yes, it's rare to get to the Super Bowl with a QB who is actually BAD, unless the rest of the team is amazing. It's not that uncommon to get to the Super Bowl with a second-tier guy, and then once you're in, it's one game and anything can happen. The pretty-good and shitty QBs mentioned above had a combined record of 5-8 in the Super Bowl, which is about 40% - not great, but nothing to sneeze at for something that so many deem impossible.

Rich Gannon threw an NFL record 5 interceptions in his lone superbowl appearance and got his team blown out in the process. Steve McNair, Drew Bledsoe, Matt Hasselbeck, Jeff Hostetler, and Jake Delhomme ARE franchise quarterbacks. All of them were probowlers and were good for at least part of their career. Hell, McNair was NFL co-MVP before. Even Chris Chandler was a probowler at one point. I guess we have a difference in opinion but i dont think a franchise QB necessarily has to be elite, but i think he definitely has to be pretty good for some time and a stalwart for your team.

The rest of those guys either lost or won because they were on really really loaded teams. i guess you're just debating my point, not whether or not a superbowl can be won with this team without a franchise QB like ben, but nonetheless ill make it known that ill take my chances with ben because i dont think our surrounding cast is anywhere near capable of winning jack without him

Dwinsgames
12-10-2013, 02:22 PM
Steve McNair, Drew Bledsoe, Matt Hasselbeck, Jeff Hostetler, and Jake Delhomme ARE franchise quarterbacks.


sorry I stopped reading here ...


Jeff Hostetler a franchise QB LMAO http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HostJe00.htm

Jake Delhomme a franchise QB LMAO http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DelhJa00.htm

zulater
12-10-2013, 02:40 PM
sorry I stopped reading here ...


Jeff Hostetler a franchise QB LMAO http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HostJe00.htm

Jake Delhomme a franchise QB LMAO http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DelhJa00.htm

Yeah those guys are good for getting you to one. But tell me all the non Hall of Famer's that have taken a team to 3? The odds are a lot more in your favor if you have a qb the caliber of Ben.

steelreserve
12-10-2013, 03:04 PM
Rich Gannon threw an NFL record 5 interceptions in his lone superbowl appearance and got his team blown out in the process. Steve McNair, Drew Bledsoe, Matt Hasselbeck, Jeff Hostetler, and Jake Delhomme ARE franchise quarterbacks. All of them were probowlers and were good for at least part of their career. Hell, McNair was NFL co-MVP before. Even Chris Chandler was a probowler at one point. I guess we have a difference in opinion but i dont think a franchise QB necessarily has to be elite, but i think he definitely has to be pretty good for some time and a stalwart for your team.

Well, if we disagree on what constitutes a "franchise" QB, the result is still the same; you don't have to have the rare-as-a-unicorn Hall of Fame QB to make a run at a title. Yes, we all know Trent Dilfer sucked and his team won in spite of him. But no, you don't need the second coming of John Elway to win. There are all kinds of QBs in between that give you a shot. People are just stuck on that super-elite, "It takes 26 years to find one" quarterback as an absolute. Just like we'd never find another kicker who could kick at Heinz Field after Jeff Reed because we'd had some bad kickers in the past. When in fact, the very next guy did just fine.


The rest of those guys either lost or won because they were on really really loaded teams. i guess you're just debating my point, not whether or not a superbowl can be won with this team without a franchise QB like ben, but nonetheless ill make it known that ill take my chances with ben because i dont think our surrounding cast is anywhere near capable of winning jack without him

You are 100% right. And THAT'S the real issue with this team. I forget how the franchise QB thing even came up in this thread, but I don't think anyone is arguing that we should let Ben go or we'd be OK without him. We'd suck. But if we're trying to make it relevant to whether Tomlin is any good, here's what I see ... Cowher stubbornly tried to win without even a good QB, which is a fatal error. But he built a great team up at all the other positions - then when he finally got a good QB, winning championships was almost instant. Tomlin inherited a franchise QB and won for a while, but since then the team has crumbled around him. That tells me he has trouble with the long-term building of a successful team. If you put a guy like Cowher in charge of the Jaguars - or, let's say, Bill Parcells since I'm sick of using Cowher as the only comparison - you could be reasonably sure that some progress would be made in a couple of years. If you put Tomlin on the Jaguars, I don't think you could say that. Maybe he's an OK tactician, but as a franchise, we're not going forward or holding steady; we can't even hold on to what we've got.

Dwinsgames
12-10-2013, 03:20 PM
to much emphasis is being put on Tomlin in terms to team talent IMO , since we build through the draft and only add small pieces in FA , Tomlin on has the ingredients to bake the cake that Colbert gives him ....

No Flour no cake , no Eggs no cake ..... no water no cake , to make a cake you have to have the ingredients ....

now if the arguement is Tomlin is not getting the most of the players he has , Then I will agree but at the same time I do not believe he has enough talent team wide to deliver a championship either even if he got 110% from every man every play all season long .....

then once you add in coaching errors , clock mismanagement and play calling you end up middle of the pack if you are lucky and here we sit waiting on getting lucky

steelreserve
12-10-2013, 04:10 PM
I disagree that the head coach has so little to do with the players we acquire, whether through the draft or FA. No, the head coach doesn't have time to go over hours and hours of footage on hundreds of draft prospects; that's the scouts' job to filter it down to a manageable level. The job of a GOOD head coach is to take what he can and be heavily involved in the process of building the roster according to plan. Not just take a bunch of random players handed to him by the GM and try to make it work.

Take successful coaches like Parcells, Walsh, Belichick - they 100% definitely had a role in shaping the draft and getting key players for their schemes. I haven't seen anything to indicate Tomlin is active in doing that. Hell, I haven't seen anything to indicate he even has a scheme. On one side of the ball, you've got a slapdick offense that he's barely involved in; on the other side of the ball, you've got a defense using the wrong alignment with the wrong players, and he dare not challenge LeBeau's wisdom. And both of those guys seem to be WAY more involved in personnel decisions than Tomlin.

What the hell is this? The head coach basically subordinate to his coordinators in every visible aspect of on-field tactics and off-field organizational decisions? What exactly is he in charge of? Hanging out with the players? It's no wonder our team looks like a disjointed mess. It IS a disjointed mess.

Dwinsgames
12-10-2013, 04:19 PM
I disagree that the head coach has so little to do with the players we acquire, whether through the draft or FA. No, the head coach doesn't have time to go over hours and hours of footage on hundreds of draft prospects; that's the scouts' job to filter it down to a manageable level. The job of a GOOD head coach is to take what he can and be heavily involved in the process of building the roster according to plan. Not just take a bunch of random players handed to him by the GM and try to make it work.

Take successful coaches like Parcells, Walsh, Belichick - they 100% definitely had a role in shaping the draft and getting key players for their schemes. I haven't seen anything to indicate Tomlin is active in doing that. Hell, I haven't seen anything to indicate he even has a scheme. On one side of the ball, you've got a slapdick offense that he's barely involved in; on the other side of the ball, you've got a defense using the wrong alignment with the wrong players, and he dare not challenge LeBeau's wisdom. And both of those guys seem to be WAY more involved in personnel decisions than Tomlin.

What the hell is this? The head coach basically subordinate to his coordinators in every visible aspect of on-field tactics and off-field organizational decisions? What exactly is he in charge of? Hanging out with the players? It's no wonder our team looks like a disjointed mess. It IS a disjointed mess.

Tomlin on has the ingredients to bake the cake that Colbert gives him .... the draft board is of Colbert's making that board is the ingredients

steelreserve
12-10-2013, 04:33 PM
Tomlin on has the ingredients to bake the cake that Colbert gives him .... the draft board is of Colbert's making that board is the ingredients

I don't know. If that's really the way it is, I don't think Tomlin's doing his job fully. Why do the coordinators have their fingerprints all over the draft? They apparently get to be involved in building the roster.

Like I said, a GOOD head coach is involved in creating the recipe, not just assembling it from a pile of parts that's handed to him. Tomlin either isn't doing that, or if he is, he's doing a poor job of it.

It's possible that the reason for both of the above is that Tomlin actually doesn't have a scheme. What's his style? What's his big-picture plan? I couldn't even make an educated guess, and he's been here seven years. Isn't that a little concerning for a someone who's supposed to be the leader of the team and the face of the organization?

Dwinsgames
12-10-2013, 04:40 PM
I don't know. If that's really the way it is, I don't think Tomlin's doing his job fully. Why do the coordinators have their fingerprints all over the draft? They apparently get to be involved in building the roster.

Like I said, a GOOD head coach is involved in creating the recipe, not just assembling it from a pile of parts that's handed to him. Tomlin either isn't doing that, or if he is, he's doing a poor job of it.

It's possible that the reason for both of the above is that Tomlin actually doesn't have a scheme. What's his style? What's his big-picture plan? I couldn't even make an educated guess, and he's been here seven years. Isn't that a little concerning for a someone who's supposed to be the leader of the team and the face of the organization?

supposedly or so he was billed as a 4-3 cover 2 Coach ala Dungy via Carson - Noll ( many where concerned about Lebeaus future when the hire was announced ) , but he has no fingerprints on this team other than results ( or lack there of ) he has seemingly kept his fingers out of the O and the D but word was he was going to be hands on with the ST after he fired the coach there but we seen nothing in terms of improvement and it was business as usual in that department ......

if evidence is what you seek , have fun searching for clues because there is very little to be found....

again he stays out of the O and D coords way , they have fingerprints as you like to call them on the players but those players still came from Colbert and his scouts board ...

I believe ( have zero proof ) but believe if the player is not on Colbert's board he is not on the roster when the draft concludes that draft board is roughly 150 players total

steelreserve
12-10-2013, 04:59 PM
That's a big part of what I'm frustrated with. He's supposed to be the leader of the team, but what sign is there of his influence? You don't become a great coach by staying out of your coordinators' way and being pals with your players. Those people are all working for YOU. The GM's job, at the end of the day, is to give you what YOU need to be successful. It's almost as if he's trying to sit back and let things run themselves. That's not going to lead anywhere but a train wreck, which seems rapidly approaching.

zulater
12-10-2013, 05:16 PM
Tomlin more or less made the pick of Mike Adams from what I've been led to believe. Adams was supposedly off the Steelers board when Adams arranged a personal meeting with Tomlin. Tomnlin was so impressed that a player most of the NFL had as a late 3rd or early 4th round pick was chosen in the 2nd round by the Steelers. I can't believe Tomlin doesn't have influence or at least veto power with certain key picks.

Dwinsgames
12-10-2013, 05:20 PM
Tomlin more or less made the pick of Mike Adams from what I've been led to believe. Adams was supposedly off the Steelers board when Adams arranged a personal meeting with Tomlin. Tomnlin was so impressed that a player most of the NFL had as a late 3rd or early 4th round pick was chosen in the 2nd round by the Steelers. I can't believe Tomlin doesn't have influence or at least veto power with certain key picks.


Adams was regarded as a potential 1st round pick and many had him rated as the second or 3rd best Tackle prospect in the draft but was sliding due to off field issues general consensus was 4th best tackle , not sure where you got the 3rd or 4th round stuff at

Tattoo gate

Pos pot test at combine

stillers4me
12-10-2013, 05:40 PM
You don't become a great coach by staying out of your coordinators' way and being pals with your players.

Everybody keeps saying stuff like this, but I would like to see some kind of proof of his being "buddies" with any particular player. In my search for articles and news to post here at SU, I see probably about 90% of the main stream articles and twitter posts.......I don't recall any proof of statements like this. Other than a player here or there saying "he's about our age"......and even that isn't true after 7 years a HC.

Dwinsgames
12-10-2013, 05:42 PM
That's a big part of what I'm frustrated with. He's supposed to be the leader of the team, but what sign is there of his influence? You don't become a great coach by staying out of your coordinators' way and being pals with your players. Those people are all working for YOU. The GM's job, at the end of the day, is to give you what YOU need to be successful. It's almost as if he's trying to sit back and let things run themselves. That's not going to lead anywhere but a train wreck, which seems rapidly approaching.


no argument from me

Shoes
12-10-2013, 09:17 PM
OK then, what would be your definition of "qualified?" Not being flippant or dissing you or anything, I'm genuinely curious. This question goes to everyone here.

And hell, it could be worse - we could have had Norv Turner as HC. He's the very definition of an educated guy who couldn't cut the mustard as a HC. Wade Phillips would be another one. And let's not forget our very own Dick LeBeau. His one stint as a HC didn't work out very well at all. All 3 of them would be considered "qualified" based on their track records as coordinators, yet all of them were miserable failures as head coaches.

Heck thats fair enough, XT. I don't believe Tomlin is qualified because he's not a good leader….the guys you mentioned above fall into that category. Leadership is the #1 quality as a HC in imo. If you don't have that you can flush the rest. What I do believe Tomlin is, is a delegator and thats where it seems to stop. He came to a team that was up and running and I'll give him credit for not trying to fix what wasn't broke. But he's been stuck there…as a delegator. There are many who say he's a great coach but no one can seem to say why and use the *he's taken the team to 2 SB's.* I believe any of the coaches that were interviewed or considered for this position would have done the same.

As I said before I don't blame Tomlin… He was offered a job he wasn't qualified for and simply took it. I would like Tomlin and every coach, player and draft pick on this team to excel and succeed. And I'm not so foolish to wish my opinion would triumph that.

Here is an interesting article I happened across this afternoon.

The Failure of Head Coaches.

http://nflphilosophy.com/the-failure-of-head-coaches/

Dwinsgames
12-10-2013, 09:32 PM
http://nflphilosophy.com/the-failure-of-head-coaches/

thanks , was a good read and worth the effort involved

zulater
12-11-2013, 10:32 AM
If Tomlin would have used his timeouts less stupidly the Steelers could have still gone for it on 4th and 10, and if the play sequence that followed held up, and if Tomlin calls the timeout before the 2 minute warning as opposed to after the Steelers could have started their last possession with aprox. 1.54 to play. :doh: Tell me he's a good game day coach. :mad:

XxKnightxX
12-11-2013, 11:45 AM
Bingo devils dance floor. U are spot on. It's no different than being a parent. When u have a mom trying to dress and hang out with her 16 year old daughter as best friends. That daughter will never listen or respect her . A coach who is one of the boys. One of them as James says will have no respect.

Also for those that think mike gets two more years no matter what your dead wrong. If he gets this year he will not get another one if we finish outside the playoffs again.

And please enough with the cowher comparisons. Tomlin is losing and losing bad with a HOF QB in his prime. Period.... The reason mike loses is the direction of who he wants to play for him. He's all about speed and talent guys. Not football guys.

U want a comparison here it is

Tomlins idea of a DT. Ziggi hood ( run a good 40 and is a gym rat )
cowher idea. Arron smith ( no explanation needed )
tomlin idea of WR. ( mike all speed all about me Wallace )
cowher idea Hines ward. A football player
tomlin wants David Johnson
cowher. Heath miller
Tomlin. Carry Davis Frank summers
cowher. John Whitman. Dan KREIDER
tomlin takes Jason worilds ( his pick by his admission who is finally in a contract year showing signs of life )
instead of Sean lee.

Bottom line is its a completely different team. And since the cowher guys are gone we are now left with no identity and a team full of kids. Not football team first guys.

IMO mike Tomlin is not the answer and needs to go. We shall see how it shakes out

I'm sorry. I'm not sold with the whole Sean lee vs worilds pick. Lee is an amazing talent. But the dude CANNOT Stay healthy. Period. If he's that hurt with the cowboys, just imagine with us. Was Worilds the best pick based on that situation? Probably not. But Sean lee is the deuce staley of defense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

cold-hard-steel
12-12-2013, 01:51 AM
Tomlin is who he is . We are who we are . I've said it before and will so again . He is growing as a HC , but who is to question his decisions ? I like Mike man but c'mon man !!!!!! We have withstood the test of time , and once we get out of our own way , we will continue to move forward and reembarq on our quest to be the very best . We already proved that we are . Guess when you set the bar that high , you tend to look down on yourself . Always room for improvement is my motto .

X-Terminator
12-12-2013, 03:22 AM
Heck thats fair enough, XT. I don't believe Tomlin is qualified because he's not a good leader….the guys you mentioned above fall into that category. Leadership is the #1 quality as a HC in imo. If you don't have that you can flush the rest. What I do believe Tomlin is, is a delegator and thats where it seems to stop. He came to a team that was up and running and I'll give him credit for not trying to fix what wasn't broke. But he's been stuck there…as a delegator. There are many who say he's a great coach but no one can seem to say why and use the *he's taken the team to 2 SB's.* I believe any of the coaches that were interviewed or considered for this position would have done the same.

As I said before I don't blame Tomlin… He was offered a job he wasn't qualified for and simply took it. I would like Tomlin and every coach, player and draft pick on this team to excel and succeed. And I'm not so foolish to wish my opinion would triumph that.

Here is an interesting article I happened across this afternoon.

The Failure of Head Coaches.

http://nflphilosophy.com/the-failure-of-head-coaches/

Yeah, I have to agree about the "delegator" description. My biggest problem with him is that he allows his coordinators too much freedom and doesn't influence them in any way. I can understand not wanting to look like an overbearing taskmaster, but he's still the head coach, and those guys work for HIM.

MrPgh
12-12-2013, 02:05 PM
Yeah, I have to agree about the "delegator" description. My biggest problem with him is that he allows his coordinators too much freedom and doesn't influence them in any way. I can understand not wanting to look like an overbearing taskmaster, but he's still the head coach, and those guys work for HIM.

Considering that Tomlin isn't even allowed to pick who his own coordinators are, would it be fair to assume he doesn't hold much authority to overrule them? That might sound incredibly stupid and not make any sense, but for the past two seasons there's been a lot of things about the Steelers that have been incredibly stupid and don't make any sense. This might have something to do with the "elephant in the room."