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Seven
12-04-2013, 05:08 AM
Many Steelers fans point to the loss of Head Coach Bill Cowher after the 2006 NFL season as a reason behind recent draft failures. Is there any truth to that notion?

Bill Cowher and Kevin Colbert worked seven drafts together. Mike Tomlin and Kevin Colbert have worked seven drafts together. Let's take a look.


Kevin Colbert and Bill Cowher:

2000:

1: Plaxico Burress, WR - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.
2: Marvel Smith, T - Retired, 1 Pro Bowl selection, cut after 8 seasons with Steelers.
3: Kendrick Clancy, DT - Out of football, cut after 4 seasons with Steelers.
3: Hank Poteat, CB - Out of football, cut after 2 seasons with Steelers.
4: Danny Farmer, WR - Out of football, cut during rookie season with Steelers.
5: Clark Haggans, LB - Out of football, cut after 7 seasons with Steelers.
5: Tee Martin, QB - Out of football, cut after 2 seasons with Steelers.
6: Chris Combs, DE - Out of football, cut after 2 seasons with Steelers.
6: Jason Gavadza, TE - Out of football. 0 seasons with Steelers.
7: Hank Fraley, C - Out of football, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
7: Dan Kreider, FB - Out of football, cut after 7 seasons with Steelers.

1 draft pick currently on Steelers roster, 0 draft picks current Steelers starters, 1 Pro Bowl selection.

2001:

1: Casey Hampton, NT - Out of football, 5 Pro Bowl selections, cut after 11 seasons with Steelers.
2: Kendrell Bell, LB - Retired, 1 Pro Bowl selection, cut after three seasons with Steelers.
4: Mathias Nkwenti, T - Retired, cut after 2 seasons with Steelers.
5: Chukki Okobi, C - Out of football, cut after 5 years with Steelers.
6: Rodney Bailey, DE - Out of football, cut after 2 years with Steelers.
6: Roger Knight, LB - Out of football, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
7: Chris Taylor, WR - Out of football.

0 draft picks currently on Steelers roster, 0 draft picks current Steelers starter, 6 Pro Bowl selections.

2002:

1: Kendall Simmons, G - Out of football, cut after 6 years with Steelers.
2: Antwaan Randle El, WR - Retired, 6 total seasons with Steelers.
3: Chris Hope, S - Out of football, cut after 4 years with Steelers.
4: Larry Foote, LB - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve*.
5: Verron Haynes, RB - Out of football, cut after 6 years with Steelers.
6: Lee mays, WR - Out of football, cut after 5 years with Steelers.
7: Lavar Glover, CB - Retired, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
7: Brett Keisel, DE - Pittsburgh Steelers starter, 1 Pro Bowl selection.

2 draft picks currently on Steelers roster, 1 draft pick current Steelers starter, 1 Pro Bowl selection.

2003:

1: Troy Polamalu, S - Pittsburgh Steelers starter, 7 pro Bowl selections.
2: Alonzo Jackson, LB - Out of football, cut after 2 years with Steelers.
3: Ike Taylor, CB - Pittsburgh Steelers starter.
5: Brian St. Pierre, QB - Out of football, 4 years with Steelers.
7: J.T. Wall, FB - Retired.

2 draft picks currently on Steelers roster, 2 draft picks current Steelers starters, 7 Pro Bowl selections.

2004:

1: Ben Roethlisberger, QB - Pittsburgh Steelers starter, 2 Pro Bowl selections.
2: Ricardo Colclough, CB - Canadian league, cut after 4 years with Steelers.
3: Max Starks, T - Out of football, cut after 8 years with Steelers.
5: Nathan Adibi, LB - Out of football.
6: Bo Lacy, T - Out of football, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
6: Matt Kranchick, TE - Out of football, cut after 2 years with Steelers.
6: Drew Caylor, C - Out of football.
7: Eric Taylor, DT - Canadian league, cut after 2 years, practice squad, with Steelers.

1 draft pick currently on Steelers roster, 1 draft pick current Steelers starter, 2 Pro Bowl selections.

2005:

1: Heath Miller, TE - Pittsburgh Steelers starter, 2 Pro Bowl selections.
2: Bryant McFadden, CB - Out of football, 6 total years with Steelers.
3: Trai Essex, G - Out of football, cut after 7 years with Steelers.
4: Fred Gibson, WR - Out of football, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
5: Rian Wallace, LB - Out of football, cut after 2 years with Steelers.
6: Chris Kemoeatu, G - Out of football, cut after 7 years with Steelers.
7: Shaun Nua, DE - Out of football, cut after 2 years with Steelers.
7: Noah Herron, RB - Out of football, cut during rookie season.

1 draft pick currently on Steelers roster, 1 draft pick current Steelers starter, 2 Pro Bowl selections.

2006:

1: Santonio Holmes, WR - New York Jets starter, traded after 4 years with Steelers.
2: Anthony Smith, S - Out of football, cut after 2 years with Steelers.
3: Willie Reid, WR - Out of football, cut after 2 years with Steelers.
4: Willie Colon, G - New York Jets starter, cut after 7 years with Steelers.
4: Orien Harris, DT - Out of football, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
5: Omar Jacobs, QB - Out of football, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
5: Charles Davis, TE - Out of football, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
6: Marvin Philip, C - Out of football, cut after 2 years with Steelers.
7: Cedric Humes, RB - Out of football.

0 draft picks currently on Steelers roster, 0 draft picks current Steelers starters, 0 Pro Bowl selections.


Kevin Colbert and Mike Tomlin:

2007:

1: Lawrence Timmons, LB - Pittsburgh Steelers starter.
2: LaMarr Woodley, LB - Pittsburgh Steelers starter*, 1 Pro Bowl selection.
3: Matt Spaeth, TE - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.
4: Daniel Sepulveda, P - Out of football, cut after 5 years with Steelers.
4: Ryan McBean, DT - Out of football, cut after 1 year on Steelers roster.
5: Cameron Stephenson, G - Arena league, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
5: William Gay, CB - Pittsburgh Steelers starter.
7: Dallas Baker, WR - Arena league, cut after 2 years with Steelers.

4 draft picks currently on Steelers roster, 3 draft picks current Steelers starters, 1 Pro Bowl selection.

2008:

1: Rashard Mendenhall, RB - Arizona Cardinals starter, cut after 5 years with Steelers.
2: Limas Sweed, WR - Canadian league, cut after 2 years with Steelers.
3: Bruce Davis, LB - Canadian league, cut after 1 year with Steelers.
4: Ton Hills, T - Oakland Raiders reserve, cut after 2 years with Steelers.
5: Dennis Dixon, QB - Buffalo Bills wide receiver, practice squad , cut after 4 years with Steelers.
6: Mike Humpal, LB - Out of football, cut after 1 year with Steelers.
6: Ryan Mundy, S - New York Giants reserve, cut after 5 years with Steelers.

0 draft picks currently on Steelers roster, 0 draft picks current Steelers starters, 0 Pro Bowl selections.

2009:

1: Ziggy Hood, DT - Pittsburgh Steelers starter*.
2: Kraig Urbik, G - Buffalo Bills starter, cut after 1 year with Steelers.
3: Mike Wallace, WR - Miami Dolphins starter, cut after 4 years with Steelers, 1 Pro Bowl selection.
4: Keenan Lewis, CB - New Orleans Saints, cut after 4 years with Steelers.
5: Joe Burnett, CB - Canadian league, cut after 2 years with Steelers.
5: Frank Summers, FB - Buffalo Bills starter, cut after 2 years with Steelers.
6: Ra'Shon Harris, DT - Out of football, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
7: A.Q. Shipley, C - Baltimore Ravens reserve, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
7: David Johnson, TE - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.

2 draft picks currently on Steelers roster, 1 draft pick current Steelers starter*, 1 Pro Bowl selection.

2010:

1: Maurkice Pouncey, C - Pittsburgh Steelers starter, 3 Pro Bowl selections.
2: Jason Worilds, LB - Pittsburgh Steelers starter*.
3: Emmanuel Sanders, WR - Pittsburgh Steelers starter.
4: Thaddeus Gibson, LB - Out of football, lost via waivers during rookie season.
5: Chris Scott, T - Carolina Panthers reserve, cut after 2 years with Steelers.
5: Crezdon Butler, CB - Dan Diego Chargers reserve, cut after 1 year with Steelers.
5: Stevenson Sylvester, LB - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.
6: Jonathan Dwyer, RB - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.
6: Antonio Brown, WR - Pittsburgh Steelers starter, 1 Pro Bowl selection.
7: Doug Worthington, DT - Washington Redskins reserve, cut after 1 year with Steelers.

6 draft picks currently on Steelers roster, 4 draft picks current Steelers starters, 4 Pro Bowl selections.

2011:

1: Cameron Heyward, DE - Pittsburgh Steelers starter.
2: Marcus Gilbert, T - Pittsburgh Steelers starter.
3: Curtis Brown, CB - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.
4: Cortez Allen, CB - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.
5: Chris Carter, LB - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.
6: Keith Williams, G - Out of football, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
7: Baron Batch, RB - Out of football, cut after 2 years with Steelers.

5 draft picks currently on Steelers roster, 2 draft picks current Steelers starters, 0 Pro Bowl selections.

2012:

1: David DeCastro, G - Pittsburgh Steelers starter.
2: Mike Adams, T - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.
3: Sean Spence, LB - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.
4: Alameda Ta'amu DT, Arizona Cardinals reserve, cut after 1 year with Steelers.
5: Chris Rainey, RB - Indianapolis Colts reserve, cut after 1 year with Steelers.
7: Toney Clemons, WR - Carolina Panthers reserve, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
7: David Paulson, TE - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.
7: Terrence Frederick, CB - Cleveland Browns, practice squad, cut after 1 year with Steelers.
7: Kelvin Beachum, T - Pittsburgh Steelers starter.

5 draft picks currently on Steelers roster, 2 draft picks current Steelers starters, 0 Pro Bowl selections.

2013:

1: Jarvis Jones, LB - Pittsburgh Steelers starter.
2: Le'Veon Bell, RB - Pittsburgh Steelers starter.
3: Markus Wheaton, WR - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.
4: Shamarko Thomas, S - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.
4: Landry Jones, QB - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve.
5: Terry Hawthorne, CB - Out of football, cut in Steelers training camp rookie year.
6: Justin Brown, WR - Pittsburgh Steelers reserve, practice squad.
7: Vince Williams, LB - Pittsburgh Steelers starter.

7 draft picks currently on Steelers roster, 3 draft picks current Steelers starters, Pro Bowl selections N/A.



Players drafted during Cowher's tenure under Colbert who made the Pro Bowl over that seven year span: 2.

Players drafted during Tomlin's tenure under Colbert who made the Pro Bowl over that seven year span: 4.


Overall number of Pro Bowl appearances by players drafted by Colbert & Cowher during Cowher's coaching tenure: 6.

Overall number of Pro Bowl appearances by players drafted by Colbert & Tomlin during Tomlin's coaching tenure: 6.


Total number of players drafted by Cowher & Colbert who remained with the team longer than two years: 25.

Total number of players drafted by Tomlin & Colbert who remained with the team longer than two years: 22 (and that's with a two season disadvantage).



Looks pretty damn close to me. We drafted some studs when Cowher was here at the top of drafts, but wow did he and Colbert totally blow it in the mid to late rounds. Tomlin and Colbert have found more gems after round one, no doubt.


Thoughts?

(And please no "Tomlin sucks, Cowher was obviously much better" bullshit. I think Cowher was a great coach and solid personnel guy, but this totally destroys that nonsense. So don't even go there.)

They're almost the same guy after seven years of working with Colbert, outside of the obvious difference; that 2000 - 2006 were better first round players while 2007 - present have been superior in the later rounds.

I was hoping to come away with more than that, but that's really all I take away from this. Other than the fact that the Cowher being clearly superior to Tomlin propaganda is unfounded garbage, obviously.


I apologize for any errors. I'm in my twenties, the early 2000's is pretty cloudy to me and some of those picks are hard to find information on.

steeldawg
12-04-2013, 09:34 AM
Lol wallace cut? Come on man! Wallace was a free agent and he turned down steelers offer.

zulater
12-04-2013, 09:39 AM
Lol wallace cut? Come on man! Wallace was a free agent and he turned down steelers offer.

You're right he wasn't cut. He left as an unrestricted free agent. Same as Keenan Lewis, Rashard Mendenhall and a few others.

The 2011 draft is looking better every day with Marcus Gilbert's and Cam Heyward's recent strong play.

Mistah Q
12-04-2013, 02:04 PM
So the difference is... we went from drafting Jets to drafting Cardinals.

Why don't we look at the Donahoe drafts now.

MrPgh
12-04-2013, 02:09 PM
I'd like to know who has more say in drafts, Tomlin or Colbert. Some might assume Colbert, but keep in mind in 2010 he wanted Sean Lee and Tomlin wanted Jason Worlids. Who got their way on that one?

Maybe there are too many cooks in the kitchen. Maybe the Steelers need to have a singular direction from one guy who actually knows what he's doing.

Dwinsgames
12-04-2013, 02:54 PM
So the difference is... we went from drafting Jets to drafting Cardinals.

Why don't we look at the Donahoe drafts now.


I posted a thread on this a couple months ago comparing Donahoe vs Colbert and Donahoe may have been microscopically better but is so close its splitting hairs ...

If Donahoe could lose his job for poor results so can Colbert ..

steelreserve
12-04-2013, 03:32 PM
The Cowher-era drafts were better by a landslide. We were getting a couple of solid starters every year, and a bona fide star more often than not. The 2002 draft alone gave us more results than any three seasons under the new regime. None of the super-horseshit washout drafts like 2008 and likely 2009, either.

Part of the difference, yeah, probably had to do with the people doing the drafting. A huge part of our recent failures has to do with getting poor value because we're forcing draft picks. Under Tomlin, 11 of our 14 picks in rounds 1-2 have been linemen or linebackers. Before Tomlin, it was 5 of 14. That tells me we used to take literally the best player available, and make our plans around them. Now we're basically button-mashing because we're locked into the same scheme while market values have changed around us. I don't know if that's LeBeau's fault because who knows how much direct say he has in the draft - I'd probably call it more of the Aura of LeBeau doing its work. But the start of that definitely coincides with his arrival.

Mistah Q
12-04-2013, 04:42 PM
While Colbert is by no means magical, I do not think there are many who are really too much better... Ozzy Newsome perhaps (not his fault is it that they overpaid Flacco?). If we cut Colbert who can we replace him with? I think unless you can lure Ozzy Newsome or Phil Savage here, you probably don't replace Colbert at this point.

edited to add: I would give BigCurt a shot at GM though ;)

It's true that Cowher had a bit of a control complex, but can we say that Tomlin doesn't? Butler wanting Arthur Brown, but us getting Le'Veon Bell... and I like Bell but would he have really made a bigger impact for this team? We can only answer that a few years from now in hindsight but Tomlin is by no means innocent of doing what he wants.

Psycho Ward 86
12-04-2013, 05:53 PM
well, Cowher cant take credit for ben roethlisberger. the rooneys stepped in to make that happen. Unless Tomlin's past 4 drafts pick it up, there is no question who has done better. You also should have included UDFA. Lots of significant players there. Cowher, for example, didnt see the same thing in James Harrison that Tomlin did.

the 2010 draft however is looking more and more like an outstanding draft. Rarely do you get 5 solid-to-outstanding players in any draft.

Dwinsgames
12-04-2013, 06:42 PM
the 2010 draft however is looking more and more like an outstanding draft. Rarely do you get 5 solid-to-outstanding players in any draft.


for every 2010 you have a 2008 or even 2006

86WARD
12-04-2013, 07:19 PM
How about a comparison to let's say the patriots draft over the same period of time...is theirs that much better? How about the Eagles over the same period of time? Considering those two and the Steelers are the top winning teams of recent time...

steelreserve
12-05-2013, 01:48 AM
well, Cowher cant take credit for ben roethlisberger. the rooneys stepped in to make that happen. Unless Tomlin's past 4 drafts pick it up, there is no question who has done better. You also should have included UDFA. Lots of significant players there. Cowher, for example, didnt see the same thing in James Harrison that Tomlin did.

the 2010 draft however is looking more and more like an outstanding draft. Rarely do you get 5 solid-to-outstanding players in any draft.

I don't disagree with anything else you said, but Harrison was getting nothing but rave reviews from Cowher; it was just a matter of which happened first: Haggans' play slipping, or Porter's salary being a problem. Harrison was basically the reason why we let Porter become a salary cap casualty, and it was no secret while Cowher was still there that James was going to be replacing one of those two guys very soon.

Seven
12-05-2013, 01:52 AM
Lol wallace cut? Come on man! Wallace was a free agent and he turned down steelers offer.

"Cut" is simply in place to indicate when the team chose to part ways with a player, obviously the circumstances of departure vary.

- - - Updated - - -


I'd like to know who has more say in drafts, Tomlin or Colbert. Some might assume Colbert, but keep in mind in 2010 he wanted Sean Lee and Tomlin wanted Jason Worlids. Who got their way on that one?

Maybe there are too many cooks in the kitchen. Maybe the Steelers need to have a singular direction from one guy who actually knows what he's doing.

Obviously it's just speculation, but I tend to think they both probably pick their spots and have about the same amount of pull.

Mojouw
12-05-2013, 08:12 AM
How about a comparison to let's say the patriots draft over the same period of time...is theirs that much better? How about the Eagles over the same period of time? Considering those two and the Steelers are the top winning teams of recent time...

If only there was some place where I could go and almost instantly look up all of that information...

- - - Updated - - -


well, Cowher cant take credit for ben roethlisberger. the rooneys stepped in to make that happen. Unless Tomlin's past 4 drafts pick it up, there is no question who has done better. You also should have included UDFA. Lots of significant players there. Cowher, for example, didnt see the same thing in James Harrison that Tomlin did.

the 2010 draft however is looking more and more like an outstanding draft. Rarely do you get 5 solid-to-outstanding players in any draft.

For years, people were highly critical of the 2010 draft because of the 2nd round pick. Now 3 years later, it looks to be in a different light...