Gay and Worilds to start, Jones and Allen demoted

[Count Steeler]

According to Steelers.com depth chart, Cortez Allen and Jarvis Jones won't be starting. Worilds and Gay listed as starters for the Pats* on Sunday.

[Psycho Ward 86]

gay has been starting. and both of these demotions are disconcerting. just like this whole season

[blackngldblood]

This has to be a cultural problem at this point. The talent is there.


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[Shoes]

There's no conductor to lead the symphony

[blackngldblood]

You're right. I've been a Tomlin fan since day one, but he's making it hard to be in his corner. And Hailey? Forget about it....


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[Seven]

This is why I felt Jones should not have been handed the starting job so soon. Worilds is simply more accomplished, despite Jones' superior talent. Now you've taken a promising player and benched him because you started him too soon in the first place.

[Craic]

This is why I felt Jones should not have been handed the starting job so soon. Worilds is simply more accomplished, despite Jones' superior talent. Now you've taken a promising player and benched him because you started him too soon in the first place.

And that is EXACTLY the type of thing I was arguing earlier this year. Jones should have ridden the pine and come in at various times to help out until he was ready to play every down our scheme afforded him.

[Mistah Q]

This is why I felt Jones should not have been handed the starting job so soon. Worilds is simply more accomplished, despite Jones' superior talent. Now you've taken a promising player and benched him because you started him too soon in the first place.And hurt a reliable vet in the process too.

My friends, we've become the Browns ;)

[Psycho Ward 86]

jones and worilds sharing playing time could prove helpful in the offseason. isnt worilds going to be an UFA? quieter production could result in making him easier to resign. id rather have him as top backup than any of the other crap we've had the past couple of years

[steelerrob]

I don't see what goes on in the locker room or on the training field, but I believe that Tomlin is a poor leader/motivator. I compare it to my own situation (pilot for a low cost carrier), where in recent times one mistake at work will have you sacked - the current manager is a very poor man-manager, he has no people skills and no character. I never feel that he is behind us and an atmosphere of fear has infiltrated the base. We just hear MBA management speak (read "Tomlinisms") the whole time, and nothing seems to come from the heart. Just my take.

[Steeldude]

IMO, the Woodley contract is what caused this mess(as I predicted). They should have let Woodley walk. Keep Harrison and start Worilds in Woodley's spot. Then groom Jones as a replacement. They should be benching Woodley, but I don't think Tomlin has the guts to do that. At least take him out more often.

The Steelers have done a poor job evaluating talent.

[zulater]

IMO, the Woodley contract is what caused this mess(as I predicted). They should have let Woodley walk. Keep Harrison and start Worilds in Woodley's spot. Then groom Jones as a replacement. They should be benching Woodley, but I don't think Tomlin has the guts to do that. At least take him out more often.

The Steelers have done a poor job evaluating talent.

That has no basis in reality. If you were watching the game you would have seen that the Raiders made it a point of emphasis to attack Jones every play he was in there. It was only after he was pulled and Worldidis was put in that the Steelers defense stabilized.

For example in the first 30 minutes of the game Woodley was killing the Raiders right tackle and causing all kind of problems for them. So what the Raiders did was start sliding Pryor a couple steps to his left as soon as he took the snap. Because they saw that there was no edge rush coming from that side and there's was no consistent middle rush by the Steelers. Later in the game Keisel's sack came about as a result of both Woodley and Jason W getting good pressure on both edges which made Pyror step up into Keisel. That sack doesn't happen if Jones was still in there. Because he was being blocked every single time.

[Steeldude]

That has no basis in reality. If you were watching the game you would have seen that the Raiders made it a point of emphasis to attack Jones every play he was in there. It was only after he was pulled and Worldidis was put in that the Steelers defense stabilized.

For example in the first 30 minutes of the game Woodley was killing the Raiders right tackle and causing all kind of problems for them. So what the Raiders did was start sliding Pryor a couple steps to his left as soon as he took the snap. Because they saw that there was no edge rush coming from that side and there's was no consistent middle rush by the Steelers. Later in the game Keisel's sack came about as a result of both Woodley and Jason W getting good pressure on both edges which made Pyror step up into Keisel. That sack doesn't happen if Jones was still in there. Because he was being blocked every single time.

Sorry Zulater, but Woodley's absurd contract is killing the Steelers cap. He did basically nothing the entire game. What? A couple of pressures? Where was he on Pryor's run? $61,000,000 for a blank stat sheet. Yes, stats aren't everything, but come on.


causing all kind of problems for them

Really? I didn't see that. I saw a couple of pressures, but not much else.

IMO, a Harrison/Worilds combo would be better and cheaper.

[86WARD]

IMO, the Woodley contract is what caused this mess(as I predicted). They should have let Woodley walk. Keep Harrison and start Worilds in Woodley's spot. Then groom Jones as a replacement. They should be benching Woodley, but I don't think Tomlin has the guts to do that. At least take him out more often.

The Steelers have done a poor job evaluating talent.

Agree. And it's been proven that Worilds is better on Woodley's "side" than Harrison's side. Harrison's talent has declined, but his leadership would've helped this D...

[Spike]

If you can't contain the edge run and get flattened at the LOS play after play you won't be starting for LeBeau. I had high hopes we'd be getting a pass rusher off the edge but that's not happening. This defense doesn't scare anyone but Steelers fans.

[zulater]

Just for clarification I never said Woodley was cost effective. That contract is for too much. But I also don't think his play is ( to borrow a term from Tomlin) below the line this season. If someone can come up with a plan to lessen his cap hit if he's cut or traded then by all means get rid of him. But I don't really think that's much of a possibility, so I accept things for what they are. Woodley is playing pretty good football this year. Not great. Good.

[jb500ex]

So woodleys contract is bad but what about timmons

[zulater]

So woodleys contract is bad but what about timmons

I believe Timmons is playing at a higher level than Woodley. I think he's earning his contract such as it is. It's your right to disagree.

[The Bark]

The D right now lacks an identity. Harrison wasn't a motor-mouth, but he was a presence that, despite his declining production, is missed. Joey Porter was a motor-mouth but backed the intensity up. I don't see any meanness, nastiness on this team - not that I want penalty flags flying left and right - but there's nothing to fear other than Troy's berserker play. Whether it's the personalities or defensive schemes, or both, I'm not sure, but there was a time when the personnel on the field seemed to match the blitz mentality and unpredictability the schemes brought. Now it's all very vanilla.

[tube517]

The D right now lacks an identity. Harrison wasn't a motor-mouth, but he was a presence that, despite his declining production, is missed. Joey Porter was a motor-mouth but backed the intensity up. I don't see any meanness, nastiness on this team - not that I want penalty flags flying left and right - but there's nothing to fear other than Troy's berserker play. Whether it's the personalities or defensive schemes, or both, I'm not sure, but there was a time when the personnel on the field seemed to match the blitz mentality and unpredictability the schemes brought. Now it's all very vanilla.

I agree. There is no dominating personality on defense. Troy ike timmons and kiesel are all quiet guys. Clark talks but is really auditioning for bspn. There are no leaders on this team

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[Shoes]

I agree. There is no dominating personality on defense. Troy ike timmons and kiesel are all quiet guys. Clark talks but is really auditioning for bspn. There are no leaders on this team

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You are correct......and I'll add the head coach isn't one either.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Just for clarification I never said Woodley was cost effective. That contract is for too much. But I also don't think his play is ( to borrow a term from Tomlin) below the line this season. If someone can come up with a plan to lessen his cap hit if he's cut or traded then by all means get rid of him. But I don't really think that's much of a possibility, so I accept things for what they are. Woodley is playing pretty good football this year. Not great. Good.

you do know woodley and his contract are the exact same thing as what wallace would have been had we resigned him?

Translation: Overrated players that arent worth their paycheck, but cant be cut because of the insurmountable amount of dead money. were just kind of stuck with him.

Btw, does anyone know how trading a player in the middle of a contract works? How much of does each party still have to pay for the player? Im all for trading woodley if this is the best he can do AND if we can make some breathing room (money wise) for the next couple of years

[Count Steeler]

you do know woodley and his contract are the exact same thing as what wallace would have been had we resigned him?

Translation: Overrated players that arent worth their paycheck, but cant be cut because of the insurmountable amount of dead money. were just kind of stuck with him.

Btw, does anyone know how trading a player in the middle of a contract works? How much of does each party still have to pay for the player? Im all for trading woodley if this is the best he can do AND if we can make some breathing room (money wise) for the next couple of years

The cap implications stay with us. If before June 1, all implications get hit in the current season. If after June 1, this year stays unchanged and all other implications get hit in the next season.

Checked a couple of sites and this is the case for trades, retirements and waivers.

[Psycho Ward 86]

The cap implications stay with us. If before June 1, all implications get hit in the current season. If after June 1, this year stays unchanged and all other implications get hit in the next season.

Checked a couple of sites and this is the case for trades, retirements and waivers.

but dont the cap implications only stay for 1 season?

[Count Steeler]

but dont the cap implications only stay for 1 season?

Yes, pre June 1, this season. After June 1, next season.

So if Woodley has a 10M salary this year and 15M in dead money that is being prorated over 2 or 3 seasons the following would happen.

Trade, release, retire pre June 1: 25M cap hit this season.

Trade, release, retire post June 1: 10m this season, 15m next season.

[zulater]

you do know woodley and his contract are the exact same thing as what wallace would have been had we resigned him?

Translation: Overrated players that arent worth their paycheck, but cant be cut because of the insurmountable amount of dead money. were just kind of stuck with him.

Btw, does anyone know how trading a player in the middle of a contract works? How much of does each party still have to pay for the player? Im all for trading woodley if this is the best he can do AND if we can make some breathing room (money wise) for the next couple of years\

So how exactly are we disagreeing? I said I wasn't in favor of his contract. But we're stuck with it nevertheless, or as far as I can tell.

[Psycho Ward 86]

\

So how exactly are we disagreeing? I said I wasn't in favor of his contract. But we're stuck with it nevertheless, or as far as I can tell.

you were defending woodley's play. as if he were earning it at all. i respectfully disagree

[jb500ex]

I believe Timmons is playing at a higher level than Woodley. I think he's earning his contract such as it is. It's your right to disagree.
I couldn't disagree more. He's getting paid as a top ilb when in reality he's a 15-20 ilb. He is as weak as they come for a ilb, out of position constantly and circles plays to get his tackles. You add a weak jones to the lb core and its no wonder we have one of the worst group of linebackers in the league Woodley has by far been the best linebacker this year he gets pressure every game which is his job. Timmons has had one good game and several bad games most over rated player by steeler fans. Watch other games you will see how bad he really is

[zulater]

you were defending woodley's play. as if he were earning it at all. i respectfully disagree

I was trying to say he isn't playing as poorly as his detractors claim he is. Actually he's playing pretty good football for the most part. But he'd need to play great almost every game to justify his salary.

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I couldn't disagree more. He's getting paid as a top ilb when in reality he's a 15-20 ilb. He is as weak as they come for a ilb, out of position constantly and circles plays to get his tackles. You add a weak jones to the lb core and its no wonder we have one of the worst group of linebackers in the league Woodley has by far been the best linebacker this year he gets pressure every game which is his job. Timmons has had one good game and several bad games most over rated player by steeler fans. Watch other games you will see how bad he really is

I've seen you reference Tunch and Wolf, and coach Bradley a few times on this board. Tell you what, call in to their show and run that opinion of Timmons by them and see what they have to say.


Timmons could be more consistent.But overall he's a damn good player. We could use a few more like him.

[jb500ex]

I was trying to say he isn't playing as poorly as his detractors claim he is. Actually he's playing pretty good football for the most part. But he'd need to play great almost every game to justify his salary.

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I've seen you reference Tunch and Wolf, and coach Bradley a few times on this board. Tell you what, call in to their show and run that opinion of Timmons by them and see what they have to say.


Timmons could be more consistent.But overall he's a damn good player. We could use a few more like him.
We have too many like him that's the problem over paid not very good. Timmons choked on the biggest play in that game. It was him who totally blew his assignment yet everyone rags on woodley. Woodley did exactly what he was suppose to do while Timmons was tripping over the other team completely blowing his responsibility. I don't care what steeler media says I starting listening to all the shows on the net recently and have never heard more puff media ever.

[Seven]

I couldn't disagree more. He's getting paid as a top ilb when in reality he's a 15-20 ilb. He is as weak as they come for a ilb, out of position constantly and circles plays to get his tackles. You add a weak jones to the lb core and its no wonder we have one of the worst group of linebackers in the league Woodley has by far been the best linebacker this year he gets pressure every game which is his job. Timmons has had one good game and several bad games most over rated player by steeler fans. Watch other games you will see how bad he really is

Your continued disdain for Timmons is probably the most unfounded criticism I consistently see from anyone on this board. Not saying you aren't entitled to your own opinion, but the things you say about Timmons compared to what the player actually does on the field are ludicrous. He is one of the most consistent performers on this team and also makes big plays on a regular basis. I think he earns his paycheck.

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you were defending woodley's play. as if he were earning it at all. i respectfully disagree

I think Woodley is playing well. Don't mistake that for me saying he's playing up to his contract, he's not. But I think he's having a good year.

[fansince'76]

I was trying to say he isn't playing as poorly as his detractors claim he is. Actually he's playing pretty good football for the most part. But he'd need to play great almost every game to justify his salary.


I think Woodley is playing well. Don't mistake that for me saying he's playing up to his contract, he's not. But I think he's having a good year.

Agreed. Woodley would need to be James-Harrison-of-2008 good to truly be earning what he's being paid. The Steelers' FO doesn't often overpay, but in Woodley's case they are. That being said, I think Woodley is playing well this season.

[Devilsdancefloor]

the only gripe i have with woodley is he doesnt stay home on a lot of his plays i feel like we are pulling Jones for not staying home, but woodley has done this for years and notta has been done about it. i have ooften wondered if worilds could play in the middle. but i do agree he plays better on woodleys side. as far as timmons i think he is earning his game checks woodley not so much

[Mojouw]

See all Woodley's salary (for any year with the menu in the upper left) and comparable ones here http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/2016/outside-linebacker/

Two names that jumped out at me on this list - -Clay Matthews and Terrell Suggs. Two OLB's I might like to have more than Woodley.

Looking at the stats -- (using 2011, 2012, and 2013 to date -- I believe these are the years so far of Woodley's big money extension) -- screw it just sacks because really that is what these three guys are getting paid for.

Woodley 2011 - 9, 2012- 5; 2013 - 4
Matthews 2011- 6, 2012-13; 2013 -3
Suggs 2011 - 14; 2012 -2 ; 2013 - 8

Two injury marred years and a bad one with no bookend. Also Suggs is a robotic pass rushing machine from the future.

I have no idea if Woodley is "worth it" but he is getting paid a lot. This is not debatable. What is debatable is looking at some of the other 'backers on the list and realizing that the premium placed on rushing the passer mandates Woodley gets paid like he is. The market is setting a value. If Connor Barwin, who is a black hole of suck and Paul Kruger who is not exactly lighting the world on fire this year as the primary pass rusher in Cleveland can get paid like they are...Woodley's contract while still onerous at least looks like it is on the proper scale.

Want to stress that I am not saying Woodley is the greatest or even that he is paid in proper proportion to performance. I am simply saying he may be properly paid versus what the NFL pass rusher market mandates.

Plus he will get restructured in 2014 or so when (if?) the cap expands and other contracts come off the books.

Let's say you get rid of Woodley (there is no cap penalty and whatnot). Who replaces him? Worlids? Jones? Carter? None of these gentlemen has demonstrated a consistent ability to set the edge against the run and rush the passer (I know...I know...neither has Woodley). Again not saying it is the best contract ever handed out by this team, but it is a contract that has to get handed out. Hell, by the standards this board holds most players to, Polamalu and Ben are grossly overpaid. So is Antonio Brown.