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Steeldude
10-09-2013, 06:39 AM
Gerry Dulac says...


Latest Steelers depth chart has @CamHeyward listed as starter at LDE over Ziggy Hood.


Tomlin on Cam Heyward moving ahead of Ziggy: "We want Cam to play more than he's been playing. To ensure that, put him in starting lineup.

https://twitter.com/gerrydulac



Can Heyward do the job?

st33lersguy
10-09-2013, 06:47 AM
It's about time

Steeldude
10-09-2013, 07:04 AM
Can Heyward occupy multiple blockers? Hopefully he knows the gap assignments better than Hood.

zulater
10-09-2013, 07:20 AM
Can Heyward occupy multiple blockers? Hopefully he knows the gap assignments better than Hood.



It wouldn't surprise me if the best result they could get would come from switching McClendon and Hood. McClendon doesn't have the bulk to play more than 20 snaps a game at nose tackle. I think he could be a pretty good DE in our system. And Hood would probably be a better every down nose tackle. Because believe it or not, he is very strong and can control multiple blockers.

Devilsdancefloor
10-09-2013, 07:43 AM
Cam has been playing and playing well, so i do not think he will be a problem. Zu i never thought of ziggy being in the middle, but it makes some sense to try him there, but McClendon is his work out buddy on the team, so i would guess he is strong as a freaking ox as well just not enough bulk. It has been a LONG time since we have had NT problems.

Shoes
10-09-2013, 07:51 AM
Can Heyward occupy multiple blockers? Hopefully he knows the gap assignments better than Hood.

Your asking way to much from a 1st round pick in his 4th year! :chuckle: He's good at training videos tho.

Zu, it would be worth a try.

Steeldude
10-09-2013, 08:35 AM
McClendon is bigger than Hood. What about Fangupo at NT?

steelreserve
10-09-2013, 08:41 AM
bout damn time. The guy was getting by on draft status alone IMO. Time to admit we blew it and look for a real answer.

zulater
10-09-2013, 09:10 AM
McClendon is bigger than Hood. What about Fangupo at NT?

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/3879599/mcclendon.0_standard_352.0.gif

As they're listed in the program maybe. McLendon tried to bulk up a little this offseason. But side by side Ziggy is thicker through the middle and carries 300 lbs more naturally.

- - - Updated - - -

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/58/files/2012/08/64745241.jpg

McClendon's not thick enough through the ass and thighs to play nose tackle in a 3-4.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3431/3932572386_5367f8f257_z.jpg

Steeldude
10-09-2013, 09:15 AM
I agree. I think he would be better suited at DE too. He has the height. Maybe he can be another Ray Seals

zulater
10-09-2013, 09:21 AM
I agree. I think he would be better suited at DE too. He has the height. Maybe he can be another Ray Seals

Agreed. In limited snaps last year he was a dynamo. Asking him to bulk up to 325 was a mistake. He's not playing nearly as good at that weight as he was at 300. I guess the thought process was that he'd wear down at his natural weight at nose tackle. and they're probably right. But I'm with you, I think this guy would be an outstanding DE. So instead of being really good at one position, were' not good at either.

Devilsdancefloor
10-09-2013, 10:33 AM
Agreed. In limited snaps last year he was a dynamo. Asking him to bulk up to 325 was a mistake. He's not playing nearly as good at that weight as he was at 300. I guess the thought process was that he'd wear down at his natural weight at nose tackle. and they're probably right. But I'm with you, I think this guy would be an outstanding DE. So instead of being really good at one position, were' not good at either.

I think that can be said about both sides of the ball when it comes to the guys in the trenches

86WARD
10-09-2013, 07:33 PM
Hopefully
Just the first step towards the door for Ziggy.

zulater
10-09-2013, 08:37 PM
Hopefully
Just the first step towards the door for Ziggy.

Ziggy isn't a bad player. He just doesn't fit this defense, and he wasn't worth a first round draft choice. Don't be shocked if Ziggy goes on to have a nice career for another team.

Seven
10-09-2013, 10:13 PM
I think Hood is a talented football player. But he looks like a DT to me. NT? Maybe. I think he'd be exceptional in a 43. He's a serviceable DE in a 34 but Heyward has been a budding talent since day one. Excited to see the staff finally recognize Cam should be starting.

LLT
10-10-2013, 06:15 PM
At the beginning of the season there were people calling for Cameron to be cut and they were singing Hoods praises....Way too soon to hit the panic button with Hood.

....This too shall pass and Ziggy/Cameron "may" give us a very effective young DE combo for the next several years

Devilsdancefloor
10-10-2013, 06:19 PM
At the beginning of the season there were people calling for Cameron to be cut and they were singing Hoods praises....Way too soon to hit the panic button with Hood.

....This too shall pass and Ziggy/Cameron "may" give us a very effective young DE combo for the next several years

im kinda hoping thathappens and Ziggy really need to be on the other side maybe?

LLT
10-10-2013, 06:27 PM
im kinda hoping that happens and Ziggy really need to be on the other side maybe?

He looked good last year...I dont see why he cant regain that form.

steelreserve
10-10-2013, 07:06 PM
At the beginning of the season there were people calling for Cameron to be cut and they were singing Hoods praises....Way too soon to hit the panic button with Hood.

....This too shall pass and Ziggy/Cameron "may" give us a very effective young DE combo for the next several years

What do you mean? There are exactly 12 games left before we have to decide whether to pay him a significant amount of money or cut him loose.

So far, I haven't seen anything too impressive out of Hood, and not much improvement either. That's over four years, which is half a career. He's OK, I guess, probably below average if you ask me, and we could fill his shoes with basically any random halfway-decent DE or 4-3 DT. No sense sticking with this project unless we were getting a lot better results or had a significant upside to look at, which so far I haven't seen. Only way I'd even consider keeping him would be if we switched to a 4-3, in which case he'd probably make a better 4-3 DT than a 3-4 DE, as others have already expressed. Odds of that actually happening? 1% would be pushing it.

LLT
10-10-2013, 07:52 PM
What do you mean? There are exactly 12 games left before we have to decide whether to pay him a significant amount of money or cut him loose.

So far, I haven't seen anything too impressive out of Hood, and not much improvement either. That's over four years, which is half a career. He's OK, I guess, probably below average if you ask me, and we could fill his shoes with basically any random halfway-decent DE or 4-3 DT. No sense sticking with this project unless we were getting a lot better results or had a significant upside to look at, which so far I haven't seen. Only way I'd even consider keeping him would be if we switched to a 4-3, in which case he'd probably make a better 4-3 DT than a 3-4 DE, as others have already expressed. Odds of that actually happening? 1% would be pushing it.

Exactly what I said.

No one...and I mean NO ONE was ready to jettison Hood at the beginning of this year. Virtually any discussion about getting rid of a DE involved Heyward. Now...4 games later, and the negative nellies say Hood is dead weight. So.....what is more accurate?

Player development is rarely ever less than a roller coaster ride. Lets be patient until the end of the year before we start lopping players heads off. By then...If Ziggy regains even a portion of his form from last year...then this is all a mute point. And no one knows for certain what the remainder of this season will bring.

steelreserve
10-10-2013, 08:20 PM
Exactly what I said.

No one...and I mean NO ONE was ready to jettison Hood at the beginning of this year. Virtually any discussion about getting rid of a DE involved Heyward. Now...4 games later, and the negative nellies say Hood is dead weight. So.....what is more accurate?

Player development is rarely ever less than a roller coaster ride. Lets be patient until the end of the year before we start lopping players heads off. By then...If Ziggy regains even a portion of his form from last year...then this is all a mute point. And no one knows for certain what the remainder of this season will bring.

Seriously? I've thought he was dead weight for quite a while now, and Heyward was the one both playing better and showing more promise. And as far as I know, the same goes for like 3 out of every 4 people here. If anything, Hood didn't so much play well last year as just suck less. I've been ready to show that guy the door if he didn't improve in a hurry, and he really hasn't.

SteelMayhem72
10-10-2013, 08:22 PM
on another note...steelers sent the gm and scouts to watch bridgewater in louisville tonight...JUST SAY NO he is another kordell stewart clone!!!!

LLT
10-10-2013, 08:30 PM
Seriously? I've thought he was dead weight for quite a while now, and Heyward was the one both playing better and showing more promise. And as far as I know, the same goes for like 3 out of every 4 people here. If anything, Hood didn't so much play well last year as just suck less. I've been ready to show that guy the door if he didn't improve in a hurry, and he really hasn't.

Sorry...If anyone tries to say that they thought Heyward was better last year...they are writing revisionist history. I'm throwing the BS flag on that one. :bs:

I'd love to see the post in which someone said last year that Heyward was playing better.

SteelerFanInStl
10-10-2013, 08:37 PM
on another note...steelers sent the gm and scouts to watch bridgewater in louisville tonight...JUST SAY NO he is another kordell stewart clone!!!!

Kordell Stewart clone? :lol: Bridgewater isn't a running QB so I'm really not sure where you're getting that comparison from.

If the Steelers are even considering taking a QB with their first pick in the next draft, they're idiots who can't see the real problems with this team.

steelreserve
10-10-2013, 08:42 PM
Sorry...If anyone tries to say that they thought Heyward was better last year...they are writing revisionist history. I'm throwing the BS flag on that one. :bs:

I'd love to see the post in which someone said last year that Heyward was playing better.

Eh? Hood hasn't had what I would call a good season at any point in his career. Hell, maybe not even an above-average GAME. He's struggled the whole time. Heyward has been what I'd call pretty good in limited playing time. Great? Living up to a first-round pick? Not at all. Showing flashes sometimes? More like it. I don't know of anyone who was saying Heyward was the one who needed to go, though. This is really a first for me.

LLT
10-10-2013, 09:20 PM
Eh? Hood hasn't had what I would call a good season at any point in his career. Hell, maybe not even an above-average GAME. He's struggled the whole time. Heyward has been what I'd call pretty good in limited playing time. Great? Living up to a first-round pick? Not at all. Showing flashes sometimes? More like it. I don't know of anyone who was saying Heyward was the one who needed to go, though. This is really a first for me.


Actually there were several times in which posters stated that Heyward was a "wasted pick".....But back to the original point....Nothing is going to happen until the end of this year and since Kiesel isnt getting any younger, we had better all hope Hood can pull it together.

Last year Hood put up comparable numbers to Kiesel:


Brett Keisel: Total tackles: 46, Sacks: 4.5
Ziggy Hood: Total Tackles: 42, Sacks: 3.0

Thats the player that was "developing"...and thats the player I hope to see in the next few games.

steelreserve
10-10-2013, 10:06 PM
Well, I sure hope he figures it out. Even if he's not great, I'd much rather see at least a serviceable lineman than a wasted draft pick.

I have no idea how he got stats that were anywhere near Keisel's ... basically, what I see is that when Keisel is in the game, he makes a difference, and Hood does not. He gets shoved out of the way, and a couple times a game he gets a tackle from something like the RB freezing because the hole didn't open up, or trying to bounce outside and running into his own lineman's ass and then into Hood. Keisel actually fights past people and changes the play. Heyward does some of that too when he's in the game, which is not that often. The fact that he can still barely get off the bench as a first-round pick is somewhat concerning, but what I have seen of him I've liked.

steeldawg
10-11-2013, 05:30 AM
Kordell Stewart clone? :lol: Bridgewater isn't a running QB so I'm really not sure where you're getting that comparison from.

If the Steelers are even considering taking a QB with their first pick in the next draft, they're idiots who can't see the real problems with this team.

Exactly right he is nothing like kordell stewart, he is a pocket passer in a pro style offense, as soon a people see a black qb they automatically classify him as a running qb. I also agree no way should we be looking at a qb first round.

Psycho Ward 86
10-11-2013, 01:23 PM
i think Hood is as good as gone. Not that its what the team wants to do. We have places that need more help than at DE. We'll have Keisel back (at the ripe young age of 36 because we've been making a trademark out of keeping guys this old), Heyward, Woods, and some rookie or under the radar free agent at DE. Not terrible i suppose, although Keisel could literally stop being productive/get injured at any time because of his age. I think the same will happen to Pouncey, except Pouncey will command so much more money (which he deserves) and because we have Velasco. Doesnt make Pouncey truly expendable at all, but we wont have a choice. Not enough money to go around. Hurray for the salary cap

Bluecoat96
10-11-2013, 01:29 PM
Doesn't Houston run a base 3/4 defense? I know that J.J. Watt is listed as a defensive end for them. I would like to see Heyward used in a manner consistent with what they do down in Houston. I am not saying he's going to be a J.J. Watt, but I think what they do down there with Watt is something we could also do with a guy like Heyward. Maybe we alredy do, and I'm simply an unobservant moron.

Psycho Ward 86
10-11-2013, 05:12 PM
Doesn't Houston run a base 3/4 defense? I know that J.J. Watt is listed as a defensive end for them. I would like to see Heyward used in a manner consistent with what they do down in Houston. I am not saying he's going to be a J.J. Watt, but I think what they do down there with Watt is something we could also do with a guy like Heyward. Maybe we alredy do, and I'm simply an unobservant moron.

i 2nd that. especially if jarvis jones and worilds continue to be ineffective. Even if those 2 start picking it up, heyward should be utilized like J.J Swat in at least an occasional manner

HollywoodSteel
10-11-2013, 08:33 PM
Actually there were several times in which posters stated that Heyward was a "wasted pick".....But back to the original point....Nothing is going to happen until the end of this year and since Kiesel isnt getting any younger, we had better all hope Hood can pull it together.

Last year Hood put up comparable numbers to Kiesel:


Brett Keisel: Total tackles: 46, Sacks: 4.5
Ziggy Hood: Total Tackles: 42, Sacks: 3.0

Thats the player that was "developing"...and thats the player I hope to see in the next few games.

I'm not going to get into the Hood vs. Heywood debate, but aren't stats like these somewhat misleading (or at least hard to decipher the real meaning of them) for a 3/4 DE? Meaning, it's kind of hard to judge them based on stats. I'm not really sure what kind of sack and tackle numbers Aaton Smith used to put up, I just know that he was virtually unblockable 1 on 1 and he would do his job as well as humanly possible. If that translated to big numbers being put up by the linebackers or just horrible rushing stats for the opposition, that was really the better indicator of how well he was doing, no?

Keisel also seems to bat a lot of balls down. Do you know if Hood has comparable numbers in that department? I remember seeing Hood get his hand on a few, but I'm not going to trust my own memory on that one.

steelreserve
10-12-2013, 07:29 PM
I'm not going to get into the Hood vs. Heywood debate, but aren't stats like these somewhat misleading (or at least hard to decipher the real meaning of them) for a 3/4 DE? Meaning, it's kind of hard to judge them based on stats. I'm not really sure what kind of sack and tackle numbers Aaton Smith used to put up, I just know that he was virtually unblockable 1 on 1 and he would do his job as well as humanly possible. If that translated to big numbers being put up by the linebackers or just horrible rushing stats for the opposition, that was really the better indicator of how well he was doing, no?

Keisel also seems to bat a lot of balls down. Do you know if Hood has comparable numbers in that department? I remember seeing Hood get his hand on a few, but I'm not going to trust my own memory on that one.

Aaron Smith had comparable tackle numbers, but amazingly for a 3-4 DE, there were plenty of years when he would get 6 or 8 sacks, which is almost unheard of. It's hard to tell by the stats how those guys are doing, though. You could have two guys with exactly the same number of tackles, and one of them is getting them by pushing his way around and consistently affecting the play, while the other is getting his ass handed to him and happening to be in the right place a couple of times a game.

People are always saying "that's what good 3-4 DEs do, they just occupy blockers and do their job, and you don't notice them!" No, that's not the case at all. A GOOD 3-4 DE occupies blockers by moving THEM around, and messing up the play even though he's usually not the one who makes the tackle, and generally being such a beast that he is hard to deal with. A crappy 3-4 DE occupies blockers by getting blocked.

Psycho Ward 86
10-12-2013, 07:47 PM
Actually there were several times in which posters stated that Heyward was a "wasted pick".....

i feel like that was a common opinion amongst steeler fans when he was drafted/during his 1st year. But last year he was definitely being hailed as an obvious upgrade to Hood by most on this board. Im excited to see what he can do with starter snaps

HollywoodSteel
10-12-2013, 07:54 PM
Aaron Smith had comparable tackle numbers, but amazingly for a 3-4 DE, there were plenty of years when he would get 6 or 8 sacks, which is almost unheard of. It's hard to tell by the stats how those guys are doing, though. You could have two guys with exactly the same number of tackles, and one of them is getting them by pushing his way around and consistently affecting the play, while the other is getting his ass handed to him and happening to be in the right place a couple of times a game.

People are always saying "that's what good 3-4 DEs do, they just occupy blockers and do their job, and you don't notice them!" No, that's not the case at all. A GOOD 3-4 DE occupies blockers by moving THEM around, and messing up the play even though he's usually not the one who makes the tackle, and generally being such a beast that he is hard to deal with. A crappy 3-4 DE occupies blockers by getting blocked.

Exactly. Aaron Smith wasn't necessarily making the tackle, but he was almost always pushing both blockers on him whichever way he wanted them to go. He had a rare combination of flawless technique, strength, attitude, and football IQ, not to mention being one of the best human beings to ever put on a football uniform. But it's always far too easy to let one of these threads devolve into an Aaron Smith love-fest... :love2:

Dwinsgames
10-12-2013, 08:26 PM
i feel like that was a common opinion amongst steeler fans when he was drafted/during his 1st year. But last year he was definitely being hailed as an obvious upgrade to Hood by most on this board. Im excited to see what he can do with starter snaps

that is part of the problem with this team .... when fans on a website can clearly see the better player and the coaching staff is unable or unwilling to recognize it

Steeldude
10-12-2013, 11:20 PM
Well we get to see it tomorrow : ) Let's see if Heyward can read his gaps and absorb multiple blockers.

I would like to see the lineup...

RDE: Heyward
Fangupo(or Hood): NT Hood might be better there because I have heard that the NT has an easy read on gaps.
LDE: Mclendon

Seven
10-13-2013, 12:24 AM
Well we get to see it tomorrow : ) Let's see if Heyward can read his gaps and absorb multiple blockers.

I would like to see the lineup...

RDE: Heyward
Fangupo(or Hood): NT Hood might be better there because I have heard that the NT has an easy read on gaps.
LDE: Mclendon

You would sit Keisel down?

Steeldude
10-13-2013, 01:12 AM
You would sit Keisel down?

Why not? It's time to let go of these veterans that really don't amount to much. It's not like Keisel is lighting it up. They could at least rotate more often to see what works or who shows promise. What I don't want to see is re-signing Keisel after the season. It's time to move forward. The Steelers are also in cap trouble.

Seven
10-13-2013, 01:39 AM
Why not? It's time to let go of these veterans that really don't amount to much. It's not like Keisel is lighting it up. They could at least rotate more often to see what works or who shows promise. What I don't want to see is re-signing Keisel after the season. It's time to move forward. The Steelers are also in cap trouble.

Not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, I feel like Keisel is a good leader (a real one)and I don't necessarily think he's declining, but at the same time I can see some value in letting him walk. I guess it would come down to what the market dictates he's worth, to me. If it's significantly less than expected, I would re-sign him.

katmandu
10-13-2013, 08:36 PM
Nice to see Ziggy get a sack today! Finally !

steelreserve
10-14-2013, 01:19 AM
Not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, I feel like Keisel is a good leader (a real one)and I don't necessarily think he's declining, but at the same time I can see some value in letting him walk. I guess it would come down to what the market dictates he's worth, to me. If it's significantly less than expected, I would re-sign him.

I think we almost have to let Keisel go after this season for cap reasons if it's at anywhere his current salary of $5M. On the other hand, he's probably still our best defensive lineman at this point, and I doubt anyone else offers him much. If we have any shot at being competitive next year, AND we get him at a $1-2M salary, it would be a good move IMO ... but those are two big ifs, and there's also no telling whether someone like, say, SF or New England offers him a 1-year deal to plug a hole and he takes it to try and win one more championship.

Basically, I'd say odds are 90% he's out the door regardless. It would be nice to see whether Heyward is a worthy successor in the meantime; we've only got this year and next year to make up our minds on him, and not playing won't help that.

Steelman
10-14-2013, 09:45 AM
I wasn't able to see much of the game on my online crappy feed, so didn't get to observe Heyward vs Hood. Any observations on how it went for those two?

NJarhead
10-14-2013, 10:17 AM
I wasn't able to see much of the game on my online crappy feed, so didn't get to observe Heyward vs Hood. Any observations on how it went for those two?

Without looking up actual numbers, Cam was getting pressure and seemed to be more effective as the game went on. That was my observation.