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Count Steeler
10-06-2013, 05:34 AM
By Ed Bouchette / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Steelers coach Mike Tomlin and his bosses did not wait long to back up the coach's threat to make changes in the lineup, trading Wednesday for offensive tackle Levi Brown.

How many more shoes can drop?

Tomlin made promises and threats of personnel changes in the past without following through, most notably late in the 2009 season as it unraveled. He first promised that year to "unleash hell in December," and the Steelers promptly lost their first two games in that month to the lowly Oakland Raiders and Cleveland Browns.

Before they played at Cleveland Dec. 10, 2009, Tomlin said this:

"We can't stay status quo in terms of how we're approaching this and expect the pattern of behavior or outcome to change. That's unrealistic. That's hoping. This is not a hope business."

He made only one small change, to his nickel corner, for the game against the Browns, who then upset the Steelers, 13-6.

But this time, Tomlin backed up the threats he made after their fourth consecutive loss Sunday. Whether Levi Brown starts or not when the Steelers resume play Oct. 13 at the New York Jets, the trade was a bold move that underlined the coach's message three days earlier on another continent.

Someone other than Mike Adams will start the fifth game at left tackle, be that Brown or Kelvin Beachum.


Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/tomlin-makes-good-on-promise-706101/#ixzz2gw8xaDtv

stillers4me
10-06-2013, 08:41 AM
Somebody needs to get Mike Adams out of town before someone tries to kill him again.

SteelerFanInStl
10-06-2013, 09:22 AM
Making a trade for a first round bust is a "bold move"? :lol:

salamander
10-06-2013, 10:06 AM
Making a trade for a first round bust is a "bold move"? :lol:

No, making at least an attempt to fix what has been a very weak link this season is a bold move (by Tomlin's standards anyways.)

Shoes
10-06-2013, 08:09 PM
Sounds like 2009 again..... When is it time for coach change, Mike? CLE, CIN, BAL won today... turn up the heat another notch.

Count Steeler
10-06-2013, 08:25 PM
Sounds like 2009 again..... When is it time for coach change, Mike? CLE, CIN, BAL won today... turn up the heat another notch.

Let as many rookies play as possible. Let Lake take on more responsibilities and groom him for DC. LeBeau can't have too many more years left.

Especially if we go 0-5 or 0-6. And save Ben.

Shoes
10-06-2013, 08:29 PM
Let as many rookies play as possible. Let Lake take on more responsibilities and groom him for DC. LeBeau can't have too many more years left.

Especially if we go 0-5 or 0-6. And save Ben.

You don't think Butler will take over for LeBeau? Let Lake and Tomlin switch coaching jobs.

Count Steeler
10-06-2013, 08:36 PM
You don't think Butler will take over for LeBeau? Let Lake and Tomlin switch coaching jobs.

Hard to say. I am most impressed with what Lake has done during his tenure as secondary coach. He has seemed to get the most out of his guys. Butler's guys have gone downhill and I'm not seeing anything inspiring from them. Timmons hasn't shined a lot. He is above average. Woodley, average. Worilds, disappointing in his development. Yes he has had injuries, but would expect more from him at this point in his career. Sylvester was OK on ST, never amounted to anything on D.

Tomlin will have at least this full year. I would imagine the Rooneys will have a heart to heart with him at the end of the season and make a decision on Mike's future.

Shoes
10-06-2013, 08:49 PM
Hard to say. I am most impressed with what Lake has done during his tenure as secondary coach. He has seemed to get the most out of his guys. Butler's guys have gone downhill and I'm not seeing anything inspiring from them. Timmons hasn't shined a lot. He is above average. Woodley, average. Worilds, disappointing in his development. Yes he has had injuries, but would expect more from him at this point in his career. Sylvester was OK on ST, never amounted to anything on D.

Tomlin will have at least this full year. I would imagine the Rooneys will have a heart to heart with him at the end of the season and make a decision on Mike's future.

If they drop a few more in the next few weeks, the spotlight will switch from players to coaches and Art II. Tomlin's Sh*t is running down on the players, Art II Sh*t will follow on Tomlin. It's American way of doing business.

HollywoodSteel
10-07-2013, 01:26 PM
If they drop a few more in the next few weeks, the spotlight will switch from players to coaches and Art II. Tomlin's Sh*t is running down on the players, Art II Sh*t will follow on Tomlin. It's American way of doing business.

The Steelers will never fire a head coach during the season unless he goes postal and starts shooting people. They probably won't let him go unless he has another dreadful season, and I'm okay with that. As harsh as I am on Tomlin I'd like to give him one more year to right the ship unless things totally collapse even more (if that's possible). I do think Haley will be given his walking papers after this year if the offense doesn't greatly improve.

Shoes
10-07-2013, 01:45 PM
The Steelers will never fire a head coach during the season unless he goes postal and starts shooting people. They probably won't let him go unless he has another dreadful season, and I'm okay with that. As harsh as I am on Tomlin I'd like to give him one more year to right the ship unless things totally collapse even more (if that's possible). I do think Haley will be given his walking papers after this year if the offense doesn't greatly improve.

I didn't say they would fire him during the season. But you can be sure Art is going to cover his butt.

HollywoodSteel
10-07-2013, 02:10 PM
I didn't say they would fire him during the season. But you can be sure Art is going to cover his butt.

I'm not really sure what Art can do short of firing him. Art can't teach him how to be a better head coach, and you can't really scare a coach into being better through threats. Either Tomlin has some capabilities as a head coach (that others seem to be aware of, but that for some reason remain hidden from me) or he does not. You can't ride him into working harder like you can a player. He either knows how to out-coach other teams, improve the players he has, make good personnel decisions, etc. or he does not. I'm hoping he does have these skills that I haven't seen yet. Others seem pretty sure of it, so that at least gives me some hope. :)

Shoes
10-07-2013, 06:50 PM
I think Art has the natural skills to make a person miserable. :chuckle:

tube517
10-08-2013, 01:58 PM
I think Art has the natural skills to make a person miserable. :chuckle:

Lol. I bet Cowher knows a thing or 2 about that

Sent from my SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 4

Craic
10-08-2013, 02:46 PM
The first sub-.500 season (so far) and we're already talking about firing the coach. You'd think we're all a bunch of bandwagon fans that don't know the history of this team. Tomlin is not going to get fired. He won't be let go at the end of this year, or even next year. Four, five consistent down seasons is another story, but the entire reason that we are in this mess is because we went away from the "Rooney way" of doing football . . . don't offer contracts to players over thirty unless it is a VERY special situation and don't mortgage the future for the present, specifically.

So why would deviating again, when the first two deviations were as culpable for the current situation as anything else, be the fix-all? It won't. It'd throw this organization into more turmoil with another new system to learn. What if that coach comes in and tries to instill the 4-3? Goodbye Lebeau. I'm not willing to do that. What if he comes in and wants to take the ball out of Ben's hands? Think that'd be a good thing? Changing coaches like underwear doesn't change a thing if the source of the stain isn't cleaned as well. There were corporate decisions (by that I mean front office and coaching staff together) that got us here, and did it to keep a SB window open. Now we're wanting to put the blame all on the coach and fire him.

And no, this isn't a "Tomlin is the greatest ever" argument. I've listed things that I think he's done wrong numerous times, and areas where I think he has really hurt player development. That, however, doesn't change anything I said above.

Dodt
10-08-2013, 03:23 PM
i think coach tomlin has finally gone off the deep end : http://profootballmock.com/mike-tomlin-to-steelers-if-you-dont-win-this-week-im-gonna-kill-this-kitten/

Craic
10-08-2013, 04:14 PM
i think coach tomlin has finally gone off the deep end : http://profootballmock.com/mike-tomlin-to-steelers-if-you-dont-win-this-week-im-gonna-kill-this-kitten/

Didn't really bother to read the article, but the picture is pretty funny. I'll read it when I have a bit more time.

Shoes
10-08-2013, 07:20 PM
Dang Preach, it's not easy calling you Craic. :chuckle:

Who was it that departed from the *Rooney Way*? Must have been a Rooney, no? We have a O-Cord, that's tearing up his rented house in Upper St.Clair (just a few miles from where I grew up), An O-line coach who said the *line was jelling....even if it doesn't look like it*, (meanwhile Adams is on third team). And head coach who talks non-stop, which is what he seems to be best at. Who gathered all these folks together?

I think we are in for some real changes with Mr. Art II at the controls.

Craic
10-08-2013, 07:47 PM
Dang Preach, it's not easy calling you Craic. :chuckle:

Who was it that departed from the *Rooney Way*? Must have been a Rooney, no? We have a O-Cord, that's tearing up his rented house in Upper St.Clair (just a few miles from where I grew up), An O-line coach who said the *line was jelling....even if it doesn't look like it*, (meanwhile Adams is on third team). And head coach who talks non-stop, which is what he seems to be best at. Who gathered all these folks together?

I think we are in for some real changes with Mr. Art II at the controls.

Yes, it was everyone, and yet, the one thing that we forget, is that it was done for a particular reason at a particular time. By that I mean, the extended contracts and mortgaging the future was done precisely to trade future competitiveness for current opportunities to win a SB. That window has passed and now we are in the "traded future competitiveness" part of the deal. There's nothing wrong with that as a whole. Matter of fact, in hindsight, I would've done the same thing in hopes of winning another SB or two as well.

The Bark
10-09-2013, 09:22 AM
So now they release Kion Wilson and re-sign Sylvester Stevenson. Can this coaching staff do anything else to show how much disarray they're in with the second-guessing going on?

zulater
10-09-2013, 09:27 AM
They need to get rid of that worthless punter Zoltan Mesko while they're at it. Butler was better than that ex Patriot pansy!

Mojouw
10-09-2013, 09:50 AM
Yes, it was everyone, and yet, the one thing that we forget, is that it was done for a particular reason at a particular time. By that I mean, the extended contracts and mortgaging the future was done precisely to trade future competitiveness for current opportunities to win a SB. That window has passed and now we are in the "traded future competitiveness" part of the deal. There's nothing wrong with that as a whole. Matter of fact, in hindsight, I would've done the same thing in hopes of winning another SB or two as well.

Whelp, that wins the thread. Most complete and succinct explanation of what is going on.

Steeldude
10-09-2013, 09:50 AM
They need to get rid of that worthless punter Zoltan Mesko while they're at it. Butler was better than that ex Patriot pansy!

I was hoping they would draft one of the top 3 punters

zulater
10-09-2013, 10:01 AM
Yes, it was everyone, and yet, the one thing that we forget, is that it was done for a particular reason at a particular time. By that I mean, the extended contracts and mortgaging the future was done precisely to trade future competitiveness for current opportunities to win a SB. That window has passed and now we are in the "traded future competitiveness" part of the deal. There's nothing wrong with that as a whole. Matter of fact, in hindsight, I would've done the same thing in hopes of winning another SB or two as well.

So when do the Patriots get to their critical mass day? What about the Colts when Manning was healthy? The Packers, two losing seasons ( one was Rodgers first year) from the time Favre got his first start in 92 until now. Sorry, but if you got the franchise qb in place then it's not supposed to deteriorate to this level.

fansince'76
10-09-2013, 10:28 AM
The first sub-.500 season (so far) and we're already talking about firing the coach. You'd think we're all a bunch of bandwagon fans that don't know the history of this team. Tomlin is not going to get fired. He won't be let go at the end of this year, or even next year.

I dunno - Art II has done some uncharacteristic things (for the Steelers) over the last couple of years. 10 years ago we would have NEVER taken Burress back the way we did and the way he pulled rank on Tomlin with the Arians situation was unusual as well. I honestly don't know what to expect from this FO anymore.

Mojouw
10-09-2013, 10:54 AM
So when do the Patriots get to their critical mass day? What about the Colts when Manning was healthy? The Packers, two losing seasons ( one was Rodgers first year) from the time Favre got his first start in 92 until now. Sorry, but if you got the franchise qb in place then it's not supposed to deteriorate to this level.

Poor comparable examples. The Patriots have never approached roster construction and cap management in the same way as most teams. They cast off players as soon as they get expensive (basically except for Brady and Wilfork), load up on draft picks and attempt to wall-paper over any deficiencies with either young players or inexpensive veteran players. That Bellicheck gets the production he does out of the general talent level of their roster every year is an admirable feat. Their struggles in the secondary and the WR corps are well documented. On offense, Brady has been their great equalizer and Belicheck's schemes have held the line on defense.

The Packers are/have been taking a similar approach. Youth all over the roster, nothing is more valuable than a draft pick, and no old vets getting contracts. It has worked in some cases (the WR group has not missed Driver or Jennings) and not worked elsewhere (their secondary is a mess). One can argue that this approach has hurt them in some areas, picks along the o-line and at rush LB'er have not worked out, and helped them in others, the WR's and Rb's have been improved recently. They have lost players (particularly Cullen Jenkins a few years ago hurt them) and they have also not been to 3 SB's in five years.

The Colts were totally hamstrung during Manning's tenure. Do you not remember how bad those teams were on defense? What about their "protection problems"? All their money was locked up in Manning, Freeney, and Harrison.

We could look up the #'s, but very few teams are attempting to do what the Steelers have done. Pay a 100+ million dollar franchise QB, hand out 3-4 high end contracts on defense and aggressively sign younger players (Woodley, Brown, etc) to extensions, while retaining key veterans on 3rd contracts. They tried to do it all. They attempted to construct a roster that oozed talent at almost every position group (except o-line) and retain that roster. Unlike other high-profile teams, they recent Steelers could beat you in multiple ways; defensive slug-fest, shoot-out, whatever. Not many teams can say that. Essentially they loaded for bear. It worked. They took home two Lombardi trophies and had an excellent chance at a third.

Now that butcher's bill is due. Consistently drafting outside the top 15, a few "busts" along the way, sag in veteran performance, and the flat cap (which really caught them unawares -- if the cap had kept increasing at the steady rate it had been we are never having this conversation) all came together and bit them in the butt.

Additionally, Ben is not as talented as Rodgers and Brady.

tube517
10-09-2013, 11:00 AM
I dunno - Art II has done some uncharacteristic things (for the Steelers) over the last couple of years. 10 years ago we would have NEVER taken Burress back the way we did and the way he pulled rank on Tomlin with the Arians situation was unusual as well. I honestly don't know what to expect from this FO anymore.

This.

Sent from my SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 4

HollywoodSteel
10-09-2013, 08:39 PM
Yes, it was everyone, and yet, the one thing that we forget, is that it was done for a particular reason at a particular time. By that I mean, the extended contracts and mortgaging the future was done precisely to trade future competitiveness for current opportunities to win a SB. That window has passed and now we are in the "traded future competitiveness" part of the deal. There's nothing wrong with that as a whole. Matter of fact, in hindsight, I would've done the same thing in hopes of winning another SB or two as well.

With all due respect, Preacher C, I think while our money choices over the years obviously impacts the current roster, it is not the main reason we are 0-4. Since "the Steeler way" is building through the draft and not being major players in free agency, our cap woes can't possibly be what's keeping us out of the W column.

I don't think we mortgaged our future. Do you honestly believe Belichick, Sean Peyton, Jim Harbaugh, Pete Caroll, etc. would have zero wins right now with this exact team (assuming any one of those guys took over at the start of the offseason)? Do you think any of those guys would have taken all offseason to determine whether or not Mike Adams was a legit LT? Do you think any of them would have entered the season with Beachum as our only real back up for all positions on the O-line? Do we have less talent than the Titans (home opener against them for Pete's sake!) or the Vikings (on grass with them starting a backup who was booed out of KC, and for good reason!).

What does mortgaging the future really look like? The Raiders? Possibly, only they have a couple of big deferences from us...They are called victories!

zulater
10-09-2013, 08:42 PM
Poor comparable examples. The Patriots have never approached roster construction and cap management in the same way as most teams. They cast off players as soon as they get expensive (basically except for Brady and Wilfork), load up on draft picks and attempt to wall-paper over any deficiencies with either young players or inexpensive veteran players. That Bellicheck gets the production he does out of the general talent level of their roster every year is an admirable feat. Their struggles in the secondary and the WR corps are well documented. On offense, Brady has been their great equalizer and Belicheck's schemes have held the line on defense.

The Packers are/have been taking a similar approach. Youth all over the roster, nothing is more valuable than a draft pick, and no old vets getting contracts. It has worked in some cases (the WR group has not missed Driver or Jennings) and not worked elsewhere (their secondary is a mess). One can argue that this approach has hurt them in some areas, picks along the o-line and at rush LB'er have not worked out, and helped them in others, the WR's and Rb's have been improved recently. They have lost players (particularly Cullen Jenkins a few years ago hurt them) and they have also not been to 3 SB's in five years.

The Colts were totally hamstrung during Manning's tenure. Do you not remember how bad those teams were on defense? What about their "protection problems"? All their money was locked up in Manning, Freeney, and Harrison.

We could look up the #'s, but very few teams are attempting to do what the Steelers have done. Pay a 100+ million dollar franchise QB, hand out 3-4 high end contracts on defense and aggressively sign younger players (Woodley, Brown, etc) to extensions, while retaining key veterans on 3rd contracts. They tried to do it all. They attempted to construct a roster that oozed talent at almost every position group (except o-line) and retain that roster. Unlike other high-profile teams, they recent Steelers could beat you in multiple ways; defensive slug-fest, shoot-out, whatever. Not many teams can say that. Essentially they loaded for bear. It worked. They took home two Lombardi trophies and had an excellent chance at a third.

Now that butcher's bill is due. Consistently drafting outside the top 15, a few "busts" along the way, sag in veteran performance, and the flat cap (which really caught them unawares -- if the cap had kept increasing at the steady rate it had been we are never having this conversation) all came together and bit them in the butt.

Additionally, Ben is not as talented as Rodgers and Brady.
Total load of shit!

zulater
10-09-2013, 08:48 PM
The Steelers have drafted poorly of late period. The Ravens have drafted late and get good value. We invested consecutive first round picks in defensive ends. A position we have traditionally stockpiled with later round draft picks and free agents. What kept the Steelers viable for most of the previous decade was hitting huge on late first round choices. Casey Hampton, Troy, Ben, Heath Miller, Holmes. Now we reach for need with premium draft picks. Gilbert and Adams being perfect examples. Do a better job scouting and drafting and we're not in this predicament.

HollywoodSteel
10-09-2013, 09:32 PM
With all due respect, Preacher C, I think while our money choices over the years obviously impacts the current roster, it is not the main reason we are 0-4. Since "the Steeler way" is building through the draft and not being major players in free agency, our cap woes can't possibly be what's keeping us out of the W column.

I don't think we mortgaged our future. Do you honestly believe Belichick, Sean Peyton, Jim Harbaugh, Pete Caroll, etc. would have zero wins right now with this exact team (assuming any one of those guys took over at the start of the offseason)? Do you think any of those guys would have taken all offseason to determine whether or not Mike Adams was a legit LT? Do you think any of them would have entered the season with Beachum as our only real back up for all positions on the O-line? Do we have less talent than the Titans (home opener against them for Pete's sake!) or the Vikings (on grass with them starting a backup who was booed out of KC, and for good reason!).

What does mortgaging the future really look like? The Raiders? Possibly, only they have a couple of big deferences from us...They are called victories!

As always, I feel compelled to add the caveat that no one hopes I'm wrong more than me. Perhaps Tomlin has made good choices and evaluations all the way through and perhaps he has gotten the most out of the talent we have. Maybe our 0-4 start is some weird perfect storm of bad luck and problems that are not of his making. Maybe he's so good of a coach that he'll turn it all around the way no one else could do.

Now, I'll concede that all of this is possible and I'd love to see it. The only guns I'll stick to is that no one here has put forth a compelling argument with facts and examples of his excellent coaching. The closest anyone has come is to say that he has swagger and the presence of a leader, which I totally agree with, but that is like maybe 10th on the list of things I'd want in a head coach (way behind being good at actually coaching and stuff). People have talked about the "Steeler way" of not firing guys willy-nilly the way other teams do. And in theory I totally agree, but really that has more to do with the actual caliber of the two head coaches that served for so long more so than the policy itself. Should the Cowboys have stuck with Barry Switzer (for example) simply for the sake of keeping the same guy? I'm not saying Tomlin is Switzer, I'm just saying the policy can be good or bad depending on the guy you are choosing to keep.

LLT
10-09-2013, 09:58 PM
Poor comparable examples. The Patriots have never approached roster construction and cap management in the same way as most teams. They cast off players as soon as they get expensive (basically except for Brady and Wilfork), load up on draft picks and attempt to wall-paper over any deficiencies with either young players or inexpensive veteran players. That Bellicheck gets the production he does out of the general talent level of their roster every year is an admirable feat. Their struggles in the secondary and the WR corps are well documented. On offense, Brady has been their great equalizer and Belicheck's schemes have held the line on defense.



Any success that the Patriots and Belichick had/have... is predicated on several years of cheating and the magnetic draw those years had on top line free agents. The struggles you see now are due to them losing that "draw" and the "great equalizer" is that they got caught.

Period.

zulater
10-09-2013, 10:00 PM
Any success that the Patriots and Belichick had/have... is predicated on several years of cheating and the magnetic draw those years had on top line free agents. The struggles you see now are due to them losing that "draw" and the "great equalizer" is that they got caught.

Period.

In case you missed it they're 4-1. I'd take that kind of struggling.

Psycho Ward 86
10-10-2013, 02:39 AM
Any success that the Patriots and Belichick had/have... is predicated on several years of cheating and the magnetic draw those years had on top line free agents. The struggles you see now are due to them losing that "draw" and the "great equalizer" is that they got caught.

Period.

what does recording other teams' defensive signals have to do with the quality of a team's drafting and salary cap management? And what does it matter if they're supposedly struggling if they're still winning? Isnt that what we've done during most of all these years during our "successful" seasons? Find ways to grind out hard wins, but not blow out and dominate teams? If being 4-1 with the 2nd best scoring defense in the league is considered a struggle, i would love to be in that position. fuck the patriots but there are definitely many things about all of the best overall franchises in the NFL (ravens, steelers, patriots, packers, giants, etc.) that one can appreciate

tube517
10-10-2013, 09:48 AM
http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/steelers-vs-jets-news-and-updates-leading-into-week-6/2013/10/8/4816052/steelers-jets-shamarko-thomas-ryan-clark-depth-chart-starting

More snaps for Sharknado

Psycho Ward 86
10-10-2013, 11:14 AM
http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/steelers-vs-jets-news-and-updates-leading-into-week-6/2013/10/8/4816052/steelers-jets-shamarko-thomas-ryan-clark-depth-chart-starting

More snaps for Sharknado

interesting. i like the decision. preparing for the future, just wish it didnt have to take a season going down the toilet (most likely) for it to happen. That, and the promotion of heyward.

LLT
10-10-2013, 05:15 PM
In case you missed it they're 4-1. I'd take that kind of struggling.

Yea...I own a television. In case YOU missed it, they are the #17 ranked offense and the #16 ranked defense. And since I obviously wasnt comparing them to our team, I'm not sure what your point was supposed to be.

- - - Updated - - -


what does recording other teams' defensive signals have to do with the quality of a team's drafting and salary cap management? And what does it matter if they're supposedly struggling if they're still winning? Isnt that what we've done during most of all these years during our "successful" seasons? Find ways to grind out hard wins, but not blow out and dominate teams? If being 4-1 with the 2nd best scoring defense in the league is considered a struggle, i would love to be in that position. fuck the patriots but there are definitely many things about all of the best overall franchises in the NFL (ravens, steelers, patriots, packers, giants, etc.) that one can appreciate

If you think the Patriots are a good drafting team...you have blown any chance of making a legitimate point.

GoSlash27
10-10-2013, 07:41 PM
This reminds me of Morgan Freeman's line in "RED"; "we're getting the band back together". And just like that movie, the really good ones are all old.
I blame Tomlin for this one. He upset the system whereby we grew new players into starters. Now the continuity is gone and we're relying on unseasoned rookies in starting positions and we're up against the salary cap.

LLT
10-10-2013, 08:17 PM
This reminds me of Morgan Freeman's line in "RED"; "we're getting the band back together". And just like that movie, the really good ones are all old.
I blame Tomlin for this one. He upset the system whereby we grew new players into starters. Now the continuity is gone and we're relying on unseasoned rookies in starting positions and we're up against the salary cap.

Bingo...this is pretty much what I was saying in another thread. We were so quick to get "younger" that we let Vets go before some of the younger players were properly developed. And Im not just talking about starters. Having undeveloped backups has proven detrimental as well.

zulater
10-10-2013, 08:46 PM
http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/steelers-vs-jets-news-and-updates-leading-into-week-6/2013/10/8/4816052/steelers-jets-shamarko-thomas-ryan-clark-depth-chart-starting

More snaps for Sharknado

I got a feeling this is as much about what Clark has to say as it is do with his play. Him questioning Ben on national tv wasn't a smart move, especially when you consider the drop off in his play.

steeldawg
10-11-2013, 05:38 AM
This reminds me of Morgan Freeman's line in "RED"; "we're getting the band back together". And just like that movie, the really good ones are all old.
I blame Tomlin for this one. He upset the system whereby we grew new players into starters. Now the continuity is gone and we're relying on unseasoned rookies in starting positions and we're up against the salary cap.

I don't know the only position rookies are starting is running back now and 2 linebacker spots. The rest of the starters are all seasoned guys should not see that much of a drop off by bringing one or two new guys into a unit. I think the problem is we have to much money tied up in our older players who are not what they used to be and not enough money to bring in or keep young talent.

Psycho Ward 86
10-11-2013, 01:17 PM
I don't know the only position rookies are starting is running back now and 2 linebacker spots. The rest of the starters are all seasoned guys should not see that much of a drop off by bringing one or two new guys into a unit. I think the problem is we have to much money tied up in our older players who are not what they used to be and not enough money to bring in or keep young talent.

Maurkice Pouncey is probably next.

Mojouw
10-12-2013, 10:27 AM
Total load of shit!

As always, way to come with facts and examples. Right away, I am going to apologize for the long post. But you seem to be only focusing on the easy ideas that the Patriots are cheaters and Ben is a franchise QB so the Steelers shouldn't suck and Tomlin is terrible. As in so much of life, context is key. So let us look at some context.

My point was that none of the teams mentioned has EVER tried to do what the Steelers have done recently. No one has refinanced as many contracts to push cap money down the line. No team has kept as much of a SB roster together for as long. Look how many guys currently on the Steelers roster (or even count recent departures such as Casey Hampton) got 3rd contracts. As a counter-example, how many players did the Ravens just shed after winning a SB to avoid giving that expensive and lengthy extension to some of their veteran players? The Steelers are/were trying to pay a bunch of guys all at the same time. You failed to mention that others teams are not doing that, hence they are not having the same reckoning as the Steelers.

You can call it total crap all you want, but find me a roster that paid as many high level contracts as the Steelers did recently. Heck at one time we were paying out the following players at or near top $$ for their positions:
1.Ben
2. Troy P
3. Harrison
4. Woodley
5. Harrison
6. Casey Hampton
7. Can't be certain but at one point Heath was being paid fairly high for TE's as well.

For contrast, look at the Packers in their recent run of success. They are paying top dollar currently for Rodgers, Matthews and maybe Finley (I can't remember the terms of his extension or tender offer or whatever). They simply refused to even discuss paying Jennings. They let Jenkins walk away and they were never going to give Charles Woodson another contract (that would have necessitated a raise and their previous other large $ contract). They did the same thing with some aging and expensive offensive linemen.

The Patriots are paying Brady, Wilfork, and a couple of their offensive linemen. That's it.

Look, we don't have to agree on everything. I am a frustrated fan of this team right now as well. I by no means am certain that the current coaching staff and front office folks are the ones to lead the Steelers to reloading and continued success. However, we do have to be realistic about how this team got here. They have little depth and lack experience at back-ups and starting positions because the roster was allowed to get top-heavy. The Steelers have been burned that they have yet to benefit from two things. One is that the cap stayed flat. It was going to increase each year and then the CBA fell apart. Prior to the new CBA was when a decent # of their big $$ extensions were handed out. They looked OK (not great, but OK) in future years under the OLD CBA. Ooops. Kahn and the Rooneys really misread the tea-leaves on that one. The second is that they are not getting elite production from any post rookie wage scale players. The rookie wage scale not only drives down the cost of players on their first contracts, but on future extensions as well. All of the Steelers star players (the ones you have rightly identified in your subsequent posts as "hitting huge" on in the first round) were signed to old style first round draft pick contracts and that drove up the cost of their subsequent contracts (along with performance) as the starting point was higher.

Should this team be better? Yes. Is this the most ridiculously over-talented 0-4 team ever? Yes. Has their been severe tactical and strategic miscalculations in roster construction? Of course. But it needs to remembered that this is the last remnants of a roster that at one point the team GM argued there was very little room for draft picks on the 53. The Steelers made a decision to prop open a SB window and bind a core roster together laden with high dollar contracts and veterans across the board. There was a great run of success with that. Now the roster is in turnover and needs an infusion of cheap young talent. Some help is on the way, but more is needed. The capped out veteran roster method that this team chose to pursue over multiple years is relatively without direct comparison.

I'm sure no one will read all this. And many will not agree or even think I have any grip on reality, but I simply say, follow the money.

HollywoodSteel
10-12-2013, 11:26 AM
As always, way to come with facts and examples. Right away, I am going to apologize for the long post. But you seem to be only focusing on the easy ideas that the Patriots are cheaters and Ben is a franchise QB so the Steelers shouldn't suck and Tomlin is terrible. As in so much of life, context is key. So let us look at some context.

My point was that none of the teams mentioned has EVER tried to do what the Steelers have done recently. No one has refinanced as many contracts to push cap money down the line. No team has kept as much of a SB roster together for as long. Look how many guys currently on the Steelers roster (or even count recent departures such as Casey Hampton) got 3rd contracts. As a counter-example, how many players did the Ravens just shed after winning a SB to avoid giving that expensive and lengthy extension to some of their veteran players? The Steelers are/were trying to pay a bunch of guys all at the same time. You failed to mention that others teams are not doing that, hence they are not having the same reckoning as the Steelers.

You can call it total crap all you want, but find me a roster that paid as many high level contracts as the Steelers did recently. Heck at one time we were paying out the following players at or near top $$ for their positions:
1.Ben
2. Troy P
3. Harrison
4. Woodley
5. Harrison
6. Casey Hampton
7. Can't be certain but at one point Heath was being paid fairly high for TE's as well.

For contrast, look at the Packers in their recent run of success. They are paying top dollar currently for Rodgers, Matthews and maybe Finley (I can't remember the terms of his extension or tender offer or whatever). They simply refused to even discuss paying Jennings. They let Jenkins walk away and they were never going to give Charles Woodson another contract (that would have necessitated a raise and their previous other large $ contract). They did the same thing with some aging and expensive offensive linemen.

The Patriots are paying Brady, Wilfork, and a couple of their offensive linemen. That's it.

Look, we don't have to agree on everything. I am a frustrated fan of this team right now as well. I by no means am certain that the current coaching staff and front office folks are the ones to lead the Steelers to reloading and continued success. However, we do have to be realistic about how this team got here. They have little depth and lack experience at back-ups and starting positions because the roster was allowed to get top-heavy. The Steelers have been burned that they have yet to benefit from two things. One is that the cap stayed flat. It was going to increase each year and then the CBA fell apart. Prior to the new CBA was when a decent # of their big $$ extensions were handed out. They looked OK (not great, but OK) in future years under the OLD CBA. Ooops. Kahn and the Rooneys really misread the tea-leaves on that one. The second is that they are not getting elite production from any post rookie wage scale players. The rookie wage scale not only drives down the cost of players on their first contracts, but on future extensions as well. All of the Steelers star players (the ones you have rightly identified in your subsequent posts as "hitting huge" on in the first round) were signed to old style first round draft pick contracts and that drove up the cost of their subsequent contracts (along with performance) as the starting point was higher.

Should this team be better? Yes. Is this the most ridiculously over-talented 0-4 team ever? Yes. Has their been severe tactical and strategic miscalculations in roster construction? Of course. But it needs to remembered that this is the last remnants of a roster that at one point the team GM argued there was very little room for draft picks on the 53. The Steelers made a decision to prop open a SB window and bind a core roster together laden with high dollar contracts and veterans across the board. There was a great run of success with that. Now the roster is in turnover and needs an infusion of cheap young talent. Some help is on the way, but more is needed. The capped out veteran roster method that this team chose to pursue over multiple years is relatively without direct comparison.

I'm sure no one will read all this. And many will not agree or even think I have any grip on reality, but I simply say, follow the money.

I think you made some very good points and I appreciate the caveat in the last couple of paragraphs. My only issue is that the $ thing is not the primary reason we are 0-4. I guess you could say that we'd have a different team with better talent had we not the spent the money the way we did, and maybe you're right, but it is still speculation. Who would we have gotten in place of the high paid guys? We are never big players in free agency so would we have somehow drafted better or done a better job coaching the guys we did draft if the money had been spent differently? Our o-line is mostly 1st and 2nd rounders. They were supposed to be the answer to all the problems of neglecting the line in the past. But either our guys misjudged their talent or mismanaged it. You are right that this team, with the talent we do have should not be 0-4 regardless of how the money lays out. To speculate what the team would look like if we had let guys walk earlier is very hard to do given the fact that we haven't coached the new guys we do have well.

Other than Keenan Lewis, who do you miss that we couldn't afford? But then again, isn't letting guys like Keenan Lewis walk rather than give him a big pay day the exact type of strategy you say works for other teams? So letting him go was the right move, yes?

Shoes
10-12-2013, 11:33 AM
<snip>


I am a frustrated fan of this team right now as well. I by no means am certain that the current coaching staff and front office folks are the ones to lead the Steelers to reloading and continued success. However, we do have to be realistic about how this team got here.

It got here by the current coaching staff and FO folks. This arrogant, pompous group will never admit to any error. Humility is 180 degrees south of Tomlin and Art II. My experience in life (regardless of the area) has shown me that a humble leader tends to make fewer mistakes.

Mojouw
10-12-2013, 12:27 PM
I think you made some very good points and I appreciate the caveat in the last couple of paragraphs. My only issue is that the $ thing is not the primary reason we are 0-4. I guess you could say that we'd have a different team with better talent had we not the spent the money the way we did, and maybe you're right, but it is still speculation. Who would we have gotten in place of the high paid guys? We are never big players in free agency so would we have somehow drafted better or done a better job coaching the guys we did draft if the money had been spent differently? Our o-line is mostly 1st and 2nd rounders. They were supposed to be the answer to all the problems of neglecting the line in the past. But either our guys misjudged their talent or mismanaged it. You are right that this team, with the talent we do have should not be 0-4 regardless of how the money lays out. To speculate what the team would look like if we had let guys walk earlier is very hard to do given the fact that we haven't coached the new guys we do have well.

Other than Keenan Lewis, who do you miss that we couldn't afford? But then again, isn't letting guys like Keenan Lewis walk rather than give him a big pay day the exact type of strategy you say works for other teams? So letting him go was the right move, yes?

I think that letting Lewis walk is a difficult one to evaluate. Lewis was given multiple shots at getting on the field and it only really happened in his contract year. They may regret letting him walk. They may not. It kind of hinges on Allen. If Allen develops along the lines of what the Steelers have indicated, then it works out fine. If not, they are screwed.

I am not so much saying that we should have gotten some FA's or that the high priced guys stunk, I just mean that they rolled out the same 22 for a bit too long. I actually think that very few if any players got run out of town that we couldn't afford that actually would be helpful right now. I can think of two, Willie Colon and Mike Wallace (I really don't want to start that debate up again though!).

Other than that, it was the commitment to veterans that may have stunted the growth of some younger players, and then terrible luck that have really assisted in getting this team to where it is. Some examples:

1. Harrison should have been pushed out as early as last year. A full year of seeing what you had in Worilds may have changed the Jones pick. I for one don't like the Jones pick. But since no one really knows what they have in Worilds and the fact that his contract is expiring forced that pick. I hate forced draft picks.

2. The injuries to Decastro, Pouncey, Adams, and Gilbert have just destroyed any chance at cohesion and growth along the line. We may never know if these guys are busts or just have not had a chance to "gel". Also the I am convinced the o-line coaching this off-season and early season has been abysmal. The mental mistakes are too numerous. Either it is coaching or stupid players. Perhaps some crap-storm of both?

3. They have had some terrible luck and critical misses in the draft. The o-line is some injury luck and some misses. Adams was viewed by many as a starting LT in the league and a bit of a steal in the 2nd round. Guess they were wrong. Curtis Brown (remember him) was supposed to be an above average starting NFL DB (they Steelers were not alone in this belief). He has developed into a ST's ace. Great. I don't know what the hell to make of Hood. Spence was supposed to be the answer at ILB (I know others have expressed their doubts about this, but the team thought so) and who knows if he will ever play again. Ta'amu was viewed as a tremendous value pick by draft evaluators. That worked not that way.

4. I think this team has made some serious coaching mistakes at the coordinator level and below as well as some philosophical decisions that are highly suspect. Pushing Arians out as some sort of scapegoat for not being able to run the ball was dumb. Haley is a poor fit for this team. Worrying about passing the ball too much was/is dumb. Zone blocking is stupid in general and really dumb when your linemen are fat, stupid, and have sloppy feet. In general this team lacks innovation on either side of the ball. Same stacked trips formations on offense with some power runs thrown in. Endless bubble screens. On defense it seems to be the same cross blitzes and stunts. Where is the mad scientist we have seen from Lebeau in the past? Either the players are too stupid to pull it off, or they lack the talent. Either way, the more I think about it the more I wonder if the staff has gone stale?

HollywoodSteel
10-12-2013, 07:38 PM
I think that letting Lewis walk is a difficult one to evaluate. Lewis was given multiple shots at getting on the field and it only really happened in his contract year. They may regret letting him walk. They may not. It kind of hinges on Allen. If Allen develops along the lines of what the Steelers have indicated, then it works out fine. If not, they are screwed.

I am not so much saying that we should have gotten some FA's or that the high priced guys stunk, I just mean that they rolled out the same 22 for a bit too long. I actually think that very few if any players got run out of town that we couldn't afford that actually would be helpful right now. I can think of two, Willie Colon and Mike Wallace (I really don't want to start that debate up again though!).

Other than that, it was the commitment to veterans that may have stunted the growth of some younger players, and then terrible luck that have really assisted in getting this team to where it is. Some examples:

1. Harrison should have been pushed out as early as last year. A full year of seeing what you had in Worilds may have changed the Jones pick. I for one don't like the Jones pick. But since no one really knows what they have in Worilds and the fact that his contract is expiring forced that pick. I hate forced draft picks.

2. The injuries to Decastro, Pouncey, Adams, and Gilbert have just destroyed any chance at cohesion and growth along the line. We may never know if these guys are busts or just have not had a chance to "gel". Also the I am convinced the o-line coaching this off-season and early season has been abysmal. The mental mistakes are too numerous. Either it is coaching or stupid players. Perhaps some crap-storm of both?

3. They have had some terrible luck and critical misses in the draft. The o-line is some injury luck and some misses. Adams was viewed by many as a starting LT in the league and a bit of a steal in the 2nd round. Guess they were wrong. Curtis Brown (remember him) was supposed to be an above average starting NFL DB (they Steelers were not alone in this belief). He has developed into a ST's ace. Great. I don't know what the hell to make of Hood. Spence was supposed to be the answer at ILB (I know others have expressed their doubts about this, but the team thought so) and who knows if he will ever play again. Ta'amu was viewed as a tremendous value pick by draft evaluators. That worked not that way.

4. I think this team has made some serious coaching mistakes at the coordinator level and below as well as some philosophical decisions that are highly suspect. Pushing Arians out as some sort of scapegoat for not being able to run the ball was dumb. Haley is a poor fit for this team. Worrying about passing the ball too much was/is dumb. Zone blocking is stupid in general and really dumb when your linemen are fat, stupid, and have sloppy feet. In general this team lacks innovation on either side of the ball. Same stacked trips formations on offense with some power runs thrown in. Endless bubble screens. On defense it seems to be the same cross blitzes and stunts. Where is the mad scientist we have seen from Lebeau in the past? Either the players are too stupid to pull it off, or they lack the talent. Either way, the more I think about it the more I wonder if the staff has gone stale?

We are not too far apart from each other opinion-wise, especially when it comes to the coaching failures. I think we just differ a bit on how much of a "butcher's bill" we are now paying. I was actually one of the guys that didn't like to see Wallace go, but I've kind of turned around on this after seeing A.B. really emerge as a true playmaker and #1 receiver. Maybe I'm buying into your theory a bit here and will go so far as to say that perhaps if we'd kept Wallace it would have stunted Brown's growth and his as emergence as the go-to wide receiver for us.

I can't say I agree that Worilds would have been any better had we let Harrison go sooner. He got plenty of chances with J.H. being off the field last year due to injury. If anything, I think we could have gotten one more good year out of J.H. and perhaps used that #1 pick elsewhere, but for a different reason than yours (BTW, I don't think his lack of productivity for the Bengals is a fair way to judge him. He would be far more valuable to us in our scheme and his familiarity with it. I also don't blame the Steelers for how the whole thing wet down. We made a fair offer and in retrospect he probably wishes he'd taken it).

In my opinion we are going to see good coaching and good drafting make an even bigger difference in the NFL going forward than in the past given the salary cap situation and the fact that rookie contracts are so much cheeper. Guys like Jim Harbaugh and Pete Carroll who can make the best out of young guys are going to do better than the type of coaches who need to slowly bring guys along. Perhaps one of the problems with our defense, and the reason why we tend to pay big money to the veterans that we've already taught, is that Dick Lebeau's scheme is hard to learn and it generally takes a few years for players to find their groove in it. That type of thing might be impractical going forward in the league now.

It seems that what you need is a really good QB and a really good coach who can make the best out of new guys coming in almost every year. Ben might be able to fill that QB role more or less (although he'll never be able to make due with whatever pieces are around him quite like P. Manning, Brady, Brees, or Rodgers) but I'm afraid that Tomlin will never be that guy (like Belichick, Sean Peyton, or Jim Harbaugh).

Psycho Ward 86
10-12-2013, 07:43 PM
As always, way to come with facts and examples. Right away, I am going to apologize for the long post. But you seem to be only focusing on the easy ideas that the Patriots are cheaters and Ben is a franchise QB so the Steelers shouldn't suck and Tomlin is terrible. As in so much of life, context is key. So let us look at some context.

My point was that none of the teams mentioned has EVER tried to do what the Steelers have done recently. No one has refinanced as many contracts to push cap money down the line. No team has kept as much of a SB roster together for as long. Look how many guys currently on the Steelers roster (or even count recent departures such as Casey Hampton) got 3rd contracts. As a counter-example, how many players did the Ravens just shed after winning a SB to avoid giving that expensive and lengthy extension to some of their veteran players? The Steelers are/were trying to pay a bunch of guys all at the same time. You failed to mention that others teams are not doing that, hence they are not having the same reckoning as the Steelers.

You can call it total crap all you want, but find me a roster that paid as many high level contracts as the Steelers did recently. Heck at one time we were paying out the following players at or near top $$ for their positions:
1.Ben
2. Troy P
3. Harrison
4. Woodley
5. Harrison
6. Casey Hampton
7. Can't be certain but at one point Heath was being paid fairly high for TE's as well.

For contrast, look at the Packers in their recent run of success. They are paying top dollar currently for Rodgers, Matthews and maybe Finley (I can't remember the terms of his extension or tender offer or whatever). They simply refused to even discuss paying Jennings. They let Jenkins walk away and they were never going to give Charles Woodson another contract (that would have necessitated a raise and their previous other large $ contract). They did the same thing with some aging and expensive offensive linemen.

The Patriots are paying Brady, Wilfork, and a couple of their offensive linemen. That's it.

Look, we don't have to agree on everything. I am a frustrated fan of this team right now as well. I by no means am certain that the current coaching staff and front office folks are the ones to lead the Steelers to reloading and continued success. However, we do have to be realistic about how this team got here. They have little depth and lack experience at back-ups and starting positions because the roster was allowed to get top-heavy. The Steelers have been burned that they have yet to benefit from two things. One is that the cap stayed flat. It was going to increase each year and then the CBA fell apart. Prior to the new CBA was when a decent # of their big $$ extensions were handed out. They looked OK (not great, but OK) in future years under the OLD CBA. Ooops. Kahn and the Rooneys really misread the tea-leaves on that one. The second is that they are not getting elite production from any post rookie wage scale players. The rookie wage scale not only drives down the cost of players on their first contracts, but on future extensions as well. All of the Steelers star players (the ones you have rightly identified in your subsequent posts as "hitting huge" on in the first round) were signed to old style first round draft pick contracts and that drove up the cost of their subsequent contracts (along with performance) as the starting point was higher.

Should this team be better? Yes. Is this the most ridiculously over-talented 0-4 team ever? Yes. Has their been severe tactical and strategic miscalculations in roster construction? Of course. But it needs to remembered that this is the last remnants of a roster that at one point the team GM argued there was very little room for draft picks on the 53. The Steelers made a decision to prop open a SB window and bind a core roster together laden with high dollar contracts and veterans across the board. There was a great run of success with that. Now the roster is in turnover and needs an infusion of cheap young talent. Some help is on the way, but more is needed. The capped out veteran roster method that this team chose to pursue over multiple years is relatively without direct comparison.

I'm sure no one will read all this. And many will not agree or even think I have any grip on reality, but I simply say, follow the money.

this post is golden. and i dont see how any of the "we had to let our salary cap go to shit in order to keep our superbowl window open" advocates can argue against this

Mistah Q
10-12-2013, 07:59 PM
Part of the problem is a response to market pressures - the Steelers have one of the most nostalgic fanbases in the league.

As much as it sucked to see Franco playing for the Seahawks, we should have seen much the same thing with Hines, Hampton, and a litany of others. But can you imagine the blowback had we gone on and done those things? What the Steelers have managed to do is create an environment that players want to come to -- but like all else, that too was a bubble and now we have some major fallout to deal with. Did it work? I don't think we can answer that right now - it depends on how many seasons it takes to turn it all back around. We had an elite QB for the first time since O'Donnell (yeah, I said it) and we spent a ton keeping superstars around him - oddly enough, almost everywhere but along the O-Line.

I think we realized the problem a few years ago but simply have been utter rubbish at drafting to correct it. We have a systemic problem on several levels, starting with talent evaluation and flowing into coaching from there. I think the approach of pushing back contracts to keep windows open can be more successful if you're very good at evaluating the talent in the trenches - but we simply haven't been.