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tube517
10-02-2013, 09:51 AM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/02/cardinals-dont-get-much-for-levi-brown/

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/23965290/steelers-looking-to-fix-oline-near-deal-with-cards-for-tackle-levi-brown

For late round draft picks???

Does Adams or Beachum move to RT ??

NCSteeler
10-02-2013, 09:55 AM
How can we afford him?

And should we be trading future anything to suck a little less now? It's not like were trying to salvage a SB run. This is the year to play with the cards you've dealt yourself and work towards a real fix in the next 2 years. Maybe we get a sweet heart deal but I'll be a bit pissed if they trade any real value for a guy that has been a bit of a bust.

Mistah Q
10-02-2013, 09:59 AM
As much as I like Adams and think he still has good potential at RT... you almost have to go with Beachum.

MAYBE one of these guys can slide inside to RG, and we can get DeCastro over on the left side pulling...

Devilsdancefloor
10-02-2013, 10:14 AM
i dont understand why decastro isnt on the Left side to begin with, but maybe gilbert is a Guard not a tackle? (yeah i am wishing upon a star here)

LLT
10-02-2013, 10:23 AM
Even if Brown only ends up being an "OK" Left tackle...and we move Adams to the right side....we will have upgraded out offensive line by several degrees.

steelreserve
10-02-2013, 10:37 AM
How can we afford him?

That's what I'm wondering. He makes close to $5M, and last time I checked, we had $0M. We'd better not be taking the "worry about it next year" approach, which means restructuring him as soon as he signs so we push it into next year and take an $8M cap hit for a so-so offensive lineman. That's what got us into this mess in the first place.

Psycho Ward 86
10-02-2013, 10:41 AM
http://nfl.si.com/2013/10/02/levi-brown-traded-pittsburgh-steelers-arizona-cardinals/

"In 2013, Brown has allowed 18 total pressures (four sacks, six hits and eight hurries) in 164 snaps, while Adams has allowed 23 pressures (four sacks, six hurries, 13 hits)."


"...the Steelers are $1.9 million under the cap this season, and Brown is due $3.6 million in base salary for the remainder of the season. Brown signed a five-year, $30-million contract extension in 2012."

The poor get poorer...

Dwinsgames
10-02-2013, 10:53 AM
Brown has not been anything to write home about thus far this season either ....... Better than Adams YES ( same can be said for almost anybody that plays LT in the NFL and perhaps some High School kids ) ... but do not confuse Levi Brown with Joe Thomas because playing left tackle in the NFL is where the comparisons there stop ...

steelreserve
10-02-2013, 11:17 AM
How much do we save if we cut Redman right now? Not the entire $1.7M difference, but it seems like that could be in the offing anyway. Maybe if we got rid of Whimper too.

I am not looking forward to absorbing a $6M salary along the offensive line given all the other issues we have. If he was a Pro Bowl tackle, sure, but everything I've seen indicates he's merely serviceable.

Dwinsgames
10-02-2013, 11:20 AM
How much do we save if we cut Redman right now? Not the entire $1.7M difference, but it seems like that could be in the offing anyway. Maybe if we got rid of Whimper too.

I am not looking forward to absorbing a $6M salary along the offensive line given all the other issues we have. If he was a Pro Bowl tackle, sure, but everything I've seen indicates he's merely serviceable.


I could be wrong BUT ....

1) Redmans deal is fully guaranteed UNLESS they suspend him for conduct detrimental to the team and find a loophole that way

2) Whimper is a VET who was on the active roster week 1 so his money is also guaranteed ....

again I COULD be wrong , but I do not believe I am

HOWEVER ... if those players are included in the trade they go to the Cards cap and off ours for the prorated potion of the season remaining making the hit a bit more tolerable ...

If Colbert has an ounce of sense he tries to accomplish something like Whimper , Redman and a 5th and 7th round pick for Brown

HollywoodSteel
10-02-2013, 11:51 AM
How can we afford him?

And should we be trading future anything to suck a little less now? It's not like were trying to salvage a SB run. This is the year to play with the cards you've dealt yourself and work towards a real fix in the next 2 years. Maybe we get a sweet heart deal but I'll be a bit pissed if they trade any real value for a guy that has been a bit of a bust.

I had the same thought about sacrificing future for hopeless present. The only practical reason I can see is protecting Ben - our only chance at having an immediate future at all. Although I'm not sure if Brown actually accomplishes that.

Mojouw
10-02-2013, 11:54 AM
So this amounts to shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. Brown has been in the league long enough that he has reached his ceiling. He is unlikely to magically get better. Only an arrogant coach with his head up his rear....oh....right...of course Bicknell thinks he can "fix" him. At least with Adams and Gilbert, there is some (however small and pointless) hope that they have yet to maximize their talent and they could get better with playing time. It is not like either of those guys has really seen all that many snaps.

What is the most ridiculous thing about all this is that the Ravens acquired a legitimate blindside protector from the Jags less than 24 hours prior to the Steelers acquiring another jumbo sized traffic cone. From the reports I have read, the Ravens are only giving "day three" picks. Well, say a 3rd and a 6th for Monroe versus lets say a 6th for Levi Brown?(Obviously I do not know the terms of either deal, but those are reasonable maximums for each) Which deal looks better.

And I know this team has cap issues, but they are apparently squeezing Levi under the cap...

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4185/levi-brown -- yup he stinks

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5198/eugene-monroe -- not a ton to give up for a top 10 left tackle. Who is only 26.

The more I think about this....the more I am losing any optimism and lee-way I was willing to give this coaching staff and football operations team. Logic demands that if the Ravens "knew" enough to ask after Monroe and make a trade that other teams in the NFL should have known that he was available. I honestly know not much of anything about the Jaguars -- except that they stink -- but I have never read that the o-line is one of their many problems. I guess the trade makes sense for them (more picks in a loaded draft and they had an in-house replacement) -- but I can't get past these two moves happening close together and comparing what the Ravens got and what the Steelers got.

Edman
10-02-2013, 11:59 AM
It's Official. This team has lost it and isn't going to be good for a long time.

HollywoodSteel
10-02-2013, 11:59 AM
I had the same thought about sacrificing future for hopeless present. The only practical reason I can see is protecting Ben - our only chance at having an immediate future at all. Although I'm not sure if Brown actually accomplishes that.

Although the cynic in me suspects it has little to do with Ben or the big picture. It could be that Colbert and Tomlin need to protect themselves first and foremost. If they can turn this into an 8-8 season or possibly a 9-7 season then they look like heroes who took action and know what they're doing. People might even forget that their failure to do things differently earlier might have necessitated this desperation.

Edman
10-02-2013, 12:00 PM
It's Official. This team has lost it and isn't going to be good for a long time.

We are witnessing the demise of the Steelers right before our eyes.

HollywoodSteel
10-02-2013, 12:02 PM
I could be wrong BUT ....

1) Redmans deal is fully guaranteed UNLESS they suspend him for conduct detrimental to the team and find a loophole that way

2) Whimper is a VET who was on the active roster week 1 so his money is also guaranteed ....

again I COULD be wrong , but I do not believe I am

HOWEVER ... if those players are included in the trade they go to the Cards cap and off ours for the prorated potion of the season remaining making the hit a bit more tolerable ...

If Colbert has an ounce of sense he tries to accomplish something like Whimper , Redman and a 5th and 7th round pick for Brown

That would be great for us by why would anyone want to take those salaries off our hands?

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, does this now make us Arizona East?

Craic
10-02-2013, 12:24 PM
Found this:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/levi-brown/ (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/levi-brown/)

I think the key to this trade is that we are only on the hook for money for the seasons that he actually plays. So if he pans out, we renegotiate a contract. If he doesn't pan out, we cut him in the offseason and owe him no money at all with no cap hit.

What I wonder is who pays the salary for the games that have already been paid. Is it prorated for the games already played, or do we pick up the full year's salary? (Pro-rated, it'd be 2.72 million. The 3.63 that you see in a previous post is the full season base salary).

NCSteeler
10-02-2013, 12:47 PM
So this amounts to shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. Brown has been in the league long enough that he has reached his ceiling. He is unlikely to magically get better. Only an arrogant coach with his head up his rear....oh....right...of course Bicknell thinks he can "fix" him. At least with Adams and Gilbert, there is some (however small and pointless) hope that they have yet to maximize their talent and they could get better with playing time. It is not like either of those guys has really seen all that many snaps.

What is the most ridiculous thing about all this is that the Ravens acquired a legitimate blindside protector from the Jags less than 24 hours prior to the Steelers acquiring another jumbo sized traffic cone. From the reports I have read, the Ravens are only giving "day three" picks. Well, say a 3rd and a 6th for Monroe versus lets say a 6th for Levi Brown?(Obviously I do not know the terms of either deal, but those are reasonable maximums for each) Which deal looks better.

And I know this team has cap issues, but they are apparently squeezing Levi under the cap...

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4185/levi-brown -- yup he stinks

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5198/eugene-monroe -- not a ton to give up for a top 10 left tackle. Who is only 26.

The more I think about this....the more I am losing any optimism and lee-way I was willing to give this coaching staff and football operations team. Logic demands that if the Ravens "knew" enough to ask after Monroe and make a trade that other teams in the NFL should have known that he was available. I honestly know not much of anything about the Jaguars -- except that they stink -- but I have never read that the o-line is one of their many problems. I guess the trade makes sense for them (more picks in a loaded draft and they had an in-house replacement) -- but I can't get past these two moves happening close together and comparing what the Ravens got and what the Steelers got.

yes, I was just reading on this trade. It definitely looks like our office didn't make the scoop. Ravens beat us yet again. This program is really off right now and it's not looking better at all. I'm so optimistic , I now think some combination of Heath, Ben and Bell will win us 4 games this year.

It does reek a bit of a office and staff protecting their short term rear ends versus doing what is right for the long haul

HollywoodSteel
10-02-2013, 12:57 PM
Found this:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/levi-brown/ (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/levi-brown/)

I think the key to this trade is that we are only on the hook for money for the seasons that he actually plays. So if he pans out, we renegotiate a contract. If he doesn't pan out, we cut him in the offseason and owe him no money at all with no cap hit.

What I wonder is who pays the salary for the games that have already been paid. Is it prorated for the games already played, or do we pick up the full year's salary? (Pro-rated, it'd be 2.72 million. The 3.63 that you see in a previous post is the full season base salary).

I can't say for certain how it works but he has already been receiving game checks so that money has been paid by cards. Are you saying that we might have to repay Arizona that money? I doubt we would make that deal.

NJarhead
10-02-2013, 01:43 PM
So much for Tomlin being "all talk."

Shoes
10-02-2013, 02:02 PM
Although the cynic in me suspects it has little to do with Ben or the big picture. It could be that Colbert and Tomlin need to protect themselves first and foremost. If they can turn this into an 8-8 season or possibly a 9-7 season then they look like heroes who took action and know what they're doing. People might even forget that their failure to do things differently earlier might have necessitated this desperation.

This. Which is why the sweating must continue.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z211/vestkap/dike_zps6635c980.jpg (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/vestkap/media/dike_zps6635c980.jpg.html)

Dwinsgames
10-02-2013, 02:29 PM
Found this:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/levi-brown/ (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/levi-brown/)

I think the key to this trade is that we are only on the hook for money for the seasons that he actually plays. So if he pans out, we renegotiate a contract. If he doesn't pan out, we cut him in the offseason and owe him no money at all with no cap hit.

What I wonder is who pays the salary for the games that have already been paid. Is it prorated for the games already played, or do we pick up the full year's salary? (Pro-rated, it'd be 2.72 million. The 3.63 that you see in a previous post is the full season base salary).


its prorated total amount of contract minus workout bonus etc /16 = blah blah blah and that 3/4 of a season game money is our pill to swallow

Craic
10-02-2013, 02:58 PM
its prorated total amount of contract minus workout bonus etc /16 = blah blah blah and that 3/4 of a season game money is our pill to swallow

Ahh, so the 2.72 mill salary.

You know, the chance to find out if a guy will do better with a change of scenery and no cap hit after the year is over really isn't a bad deal, depending on the draft pick. On top of that, remember that we're going to get picks awarded to us most likely for Wallace, Mendenhall (Possibly) and Keenan Lewis.

My guess is that we'll get a third or fourth, another fourth or fifth, and a sixth. Maybe two fourths and a sixth. So anything fifth round or later for this trade, IMO, is a good deal.

XxKnightxX
10-02-2013, 03:12 PM
It's Official. This team has lost it and isn't going to be good for a long time.

We are witnessing the demise of the Steelers right before our eyes.

We wont get any better until we start clearing the cap of these contracts, plain and simple, we have absolutely zero leverage at this point in the season, and for years to come.

stillers4me
10-02-2013, 03:49 PM
385505595387678721

steeldawg
10-02-2013, 04:13 PM
We have to do something, Adams is just not getting it done and our 100 million dollar investment is getting pummeled.

JayC
10-02-2013, 05:33 PM
not bad. anything is better than adams save jonathan scott. but our defense is still swiss cheese and cannot force a turnover for their life. you win in the nfl by not turning the ball over, and no one is turning the ball over against us which equals 0-4

Count Steeler
10-02-2013, 06:10 PM
While I appreciate the "local" feel that Tomlin is building, it is more important to get players that can play. Where they were born and raised should not be a consideration.

He seems to be taking the "Eat within 100 miles" to a new level. Seems like he wants all his players and coaches to be within 100 miles of Pittsburgh.

Bottom line is can the kid impede his man enough to give Ben enough time to throw, or can he move his man enough to give a lane to the RB.

Count Steeler
10-02-2013, 06:33 PM
Wonder if Adams is knife shy now? After that stabbing incident, maybe he has a fear to overcome.

st33lersguy
10-02-2013, 07:04 PM
Still better than Mike Adams, though he doesn't give me much hope at all

Dwinsgames
10-02-2013, 07:13 PM
Ahh, so the 2.72 mill salary.

You know, the chance to find out if a guy will do better with a change of scenery and no cap hit after the year is over really isn't a bad deal, depending on the draft pick. On top of that, remember that we're going to get picks awarded to us most likely for Wallace, Mendenhall (Possibly) and Keenan Lewis.

My guess is that we'll get a third or fourth, another fourth or fifth, and a sixth. Maybe two fourths and a sixth. So anything fifth round or later for this trade, IMO, is a good deal.

it might not be a bad deal , but it is not close to the deal the Ravens just pulled off ... Monroe is a top 10 talent at LT and they got him cheaper than a neighborhood fire sale

stillers4me
10-02-2013, 07:15 PM
385557202414866432

zulater
10-02-2013, 07:15 PM
Cardinals’ G.M. says Levi Brown was not living up to expectations

Why did the Cardinals trade Levi Brown, a former No. 5 overall pick, for a conditional late-round pick? Because Brown isn’t playing like a No. 5 overall pick.

That’s the word from Cardinals General Manager Steve Keim, who said after the trade of Brown to Pittsburgh was finalized that the Cardinals simply weren’t getting any production out of Brown.

“Levi Brown was not living up to expectations on the field,” Keim said, via Darren Urban of the Cardinals’ website.

Brown has started all four games at left tackle for the Cardinals this season and has started a total of 79 games in his career, but Keim said the Cardinals have long known it was time to move on and have been discussing a trade all season.

Cardinals coach Bruce Arians added that he doesn’t think Brown is as good now as he was before suffering a torn triceps in 2012, which caused him to miss the entire season. Arians said there’s no risk in trading Brown away from this point because the Cardinals couldn’t get any worse in pass protection than they have been in the first four games.

That’s harsh, but it’s not unfair: Brown was not playing well in Arizona. And Steelers fans shouldn’t get their hopes up that he can play well in Pittsburgh.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/02/cardinals-g-m-says-levi-brown-was-not-living-up-to-expectations/

As an organization this is who we've become.Now we take the trash out for the Cardinals! :doh:

We need to clean house. This team will most likely be bad as long as the current decision makers remain in place. In other words we're crap at least until 2016, which is the earliest possible date that Tomlin will be relieved of duties no matter how bad it gets.

Dwinsgames
10-02-2013, 07:22 PM
at Vet min he is a steal ... cant believe the cards agreed to pay most of the tab ..... they must have wanted him out of there bad ....

thinking more on that ..... it makes me nervous as to WHY ......

- - - Updated - - -


Cardinals’ G.M. says Levi Brown was not living up to expectations

Why did the Cardinals trade Levi Brown, a former No. 5 overall pick, for a conditional late-round pick? Because Brown isn’t playing like a No. 5 overall pick.

That’s the word from Cardinals General Manager Steve Keim, who said after the trade of Brown to Pittsburgh was finalized that the Cardinals simply weren’t getting any production out of Brown.

“Levi Brown was not living up to expectations on the field,” Keim said, via Darren Urban of the Cardinals’ website.

Brown has started all four games at left tackle for the Cardinals this season and has started a total of 79 games in his career, but Keim said the Cardinals have long known it was time to move on and have been discussing a trade all season.

Cardinals coach Bruce Arians added that he doesn’t think Brown is as good now as he was before suffering a torn triceps in 2012, which caused him to miss the entire season. Arians said there’s no risk in trading Brown away from this point because the Cardinals couldn’t get any worse in pass protection than they have been in the first four games.

That’s harsh, but it’s not unfair: Brown was not playing well in Arizona. And Steelers fans shouldn’t get their hopes up that he can play well in Pittsburgh.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/02/cardinals-g-m-says-levi-brown-was-not-living-up-to-expectations/

As an organization this is who we've become.Now we take the trash out for the Cardinals! :doh:

We need to clean house. This team will most likely be bad as long as the current decision makers remain in place. In other words we're crap at least until 2016, which is the earliest possible date that Tomlin will be relieved of duties no matter how bad it gets.


Trust me I am well past having faith in Tomlin , but this one goes far beyond his reach IMO .... this is on Colbert ... Tomlin is not the decision maker on all things personnel , that is Colbert ... I have called for his head for 5 years now some of you know it too ...

zulater
10-02-2013, 07:24 PM
at Vet min he is a steal ... cant believe the cards agreed to pay most of the tab ..... they must have wanted him out of there bad ....

thinking more on that ..... it makes me nervous as to WHY ......

- - - Updated - - -






Trust me I am well past having faith in Tomlin , but this one goes far beyond his reach IMO .... this is on Colbert ... Tomlin is not the decision maker on all things personnel , that is Colbert ... I have called for his head for 5 years now some of you know it too ...
I think it's both of them. And I think they'll both need to go before this team can get good again.

HollywoodSteel
10-02-2013, 07:29 PM
So much for Tomlin being "all talk."

I don't understand the tone of this comment. Are you joking? As in, we have to do something. This is something. Therefore it must be done.

I don't know if this move will end up helping or hurting us in the long run but it certainly doesn't silence the Tomlin critics, especially since you have to admit that we are certainly feeling the impact of all the decisions Tomlin's made so far. It reminds me of when I was a kid and my older brother would dangle me over the balcony, then he would pull me back and say, "look, I just saved your life." The only difference is that it remains to be seen if Tomlin actually does pull us back.

Mistah Q
10-02-2013, 07:34 PM
Bad, bad Levi Brown
The baddest trade in the whole damn town

zulater
10-02-2013, 07:40 PM
I really wanted to come on here today and say realistically this team could still go 9-7 and win the division. Because had they done the right things during their bye week they absolutely could. The division is awful and the Steelers have 5 games left with division rivals. Correct the things that are correctable and there's no reason you couldn't win all 5 of those games. Of the 5, the Bengals game would be the toughest, and if we don't beat ourselves we would have won at Cincy when we were at what should have been our lowest. Go 4-3 in your remaining non division games and they you are. 9-7. A little far fetched perhaps, but I honestly see signs of the offense coming around, and I think part of the defense's problem's in London stem from Tomlin's arrogance in not recognizing that his slogans aren't stronger than jet lag. 48 hours isn't enough for a body to overcome the time change. Don't believe me? The defense hasn't been great for some time now. But never have they looked as piss poor as they did at Wembley. Missing tackles missing assignments, coach sound bite fucked his team over royally. Their body clock was off, and so was their play.

Anyway the offense has showed signs of life, and talent wise the offense would be the best in the division with a little bit better line play. Maybe Levi is a slight upgrade, but is he as good as Max Starks has been the past two seasons? No. Not even close from what I gather.

Our braintrust is clueless and letting this team down.

Dwinsgames
10-02-2013, 07:42 PM
Bad, bad Levi Brown
The baddest trade in the whole damn town


badder than ole Mike Adams , but softer than a junkyard dog

Shoes
10-02-2013, 07:53 PM
I really wanted to come on here today and say realistically this team could still go 9-7 and win the division. Because had they done the right things during their bye week they absolutely could. The division is awful and the Steelers have 5 games left with division rivals. Correct the things that are correctable and there's no reason you couldn't win all 5 of those games. Of the 5, the Bengals game would be the toughest, and if we don't beat ourselves we would have won at Cincy when we were at what should have been our lowest. Go 4-3 in your remaining non division games and they you are. 9-7. A little far fetched perhaps, but I honestly see signs of the offense coming around, and I think part of the defense's problem's in London stem from Tomlin's arrogance in not recognizing that his slogans aren't stronger than jet lag. 48 hours isn't enough for a body to overcome the time change. Don't believe me? The defense hasn't been great for some time now. But never have they looked as piss poor as they did at Wembley. Missing tackles missing assignments, coach sound bite fucked his team over royally. Their body clock was off, and so was their play.

Anyway the offense has showed signs of life, and talent wise the offense would be the best in the division with a little bit better line play. Maybe Levi is a slight upgrade, but is he as good as Max Starks has been the past two seasons? No. Not even close from what I gather.

Our braintrust is clueless and letting this team down.

I've been across the pond and beyond countless times. I'm able to adjust pretty easy, but everyone is different. Your going to have issues when you a plane load of players, most of whom were never on an overseas flight.

86WARD
10-02-2013, 07:59 PM
$840K - worth the gamble.

Craic
10-02-2013, 08:08 PM
385557202414866432


at Vet min he is a steal ... cant believe the cards agreed to pay most of the tab ..... they must have wanted him out of there bad ....

thinking more on that ..... it makes me nervous as to WHY ......

Trust me I am well past having faith in Tomlin , but this one goes far beyond his reach IMO .... this is on Colbert ... Tomlin is not the decision maker on all things personnel , that is Colbert ... I have called for his head for 5 years now some of you know it too ...

That's just it. With the injuries we have, with the fact that we don't have a backup tackle anymore, we needed to pick someone up. Sure, he's not a barn-burner, but honestly, that's not what this was about. Look at the circumstances again.

1. Lost our LG, which means we lose our backup tackle since he now plays in that position.
2. We need someone to come in off the street and learn the new system.
3. We trade for a guy that already has a familiarity with the system since he's been in both Arians and Haley's system before.
4. We are paying vet. minimum for a guy that at the very least will be as good as our starters to be a backup.

Everyone heard "trade" and thoughts of "the Bus" danced in our head. Instead, this was a fancy waiver-wire or FA cast-off pick up to fill a backup role/spot start if necessary.

And as to "Why?" It makes sense for AZ. They get to dump a guy they no longer want, and they have over 8 million dollars in cap space that they can eat up a 2 mill salary and basically buy a draft pick. So, they don't lose quality of play, they aren't in cap trouble, and they buy a draft pick. Nothing to be nervous about.

SteelerFanInStl
10-02-2013, 08:12 PM
Our braintrust is clueless and letting this team down.

Pretty much how I feel.

Shoes
10-02-2013, 08:15 PM
I'm nervous about an O-line coach that makes statements that his O-line is jelling while Ben continues to get blasted. And he made that statement with Adams playing LT.

KeiselPower99
10-02-2013, 08:30 PM
I like this move for almost nothing. 840 and a possible 6th rounder good trade. I like that we are trying to fix this. Adams should be the RT until he gets a total feel for what he is doing.

Texasteel
10-02-2013, 08:54 PM
Brown is an upgrade over what we have now. I believe he is a slight upgrade in the passing game, and is an above average run blocker. I really didn't know what to think at first till I saw that the Cards are paying most of his salary. Whether this will help to straighten out our line problem remains to be seen. We may see an improvement but really don't see how much. Anyway, I do see this as a step forward, and lease hoping it is. One other thing that came to mind is the fact that I have read several people claiming Brown should be a OG. What if the team did this as a stop gap answer for this year, with one eye on next year if we can pick up a better LT. Going to hold my breath, and hope for the best.

salamander
10-02-2013, 09:16 PM
We sure as hell can't do any worse than what we already had at LT.

Lambert_Loonie
10-02-2013, 09:57 PM
If he just plays average offensive line, he'll look like Anthony Munoz compared to what we have now.

st33lersguy
10-02-2013, 10:22 PM
If at bare minimum he at least gets in someone's way, it would be a better situation than what we have now

Moose
10-02-2013, 10:23 PM
I'd have to agree that for the money you have to try it. Gotta be an improvement !

Lambert_Loonie
10-02-2013, 10:28 PM
Also seeing complaints that we're "mortgaging our future." It's a 5th-7th round draft pick. Judging our recent drafts, whoever we would've drafted with that pick probably would've been cut by preseason anyway.

Craic
10-02-2013, 11:12 PM
Also seeing complaints that we're "mortgaging our future." It's a 5th-7th round draft pick. Judging our recent drafts, whoever we would've drafted with that pick probably would've been cut by preseason anyway.

:chuckle: too true.

Here's what I'm hoping comes out of this.

Brown goes to the left side. Adams goes to the right side. Gilbert goes home with a pink slip.

steelreserve
10-02-2013, 11:23 PM
Wonder if Adams is knife shy now? After that stabbing incident, maybe he has a fear to overcome.

Good thing Ray Lewis retired last year, then.

steelreserve
10-02-2013, 11:30 PM
Also seeing complaints that we're "mortgaging our future." It's a 5th-7th round draft pick. Judging our recent drafts, whoever we would've drafted with that pick probably would've been cut by preseason anyway.

I think it's more about the cap space than the draft picks. We got a bargain on this year's salary, but next season it goes up to $6M, and we don't need to be paying $6M to linemen who are just OK. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. That's a way to make things worse before they get better. Maybe if we released him before the start of next season we'd save it, but then what have we accomplished except giving away a draft pick and getting nothing in return.

katmandu
10-03-2013, 12:36 AM
We are witnessing the demise of the Steelers right before our eyes.This has actually been in the works for past several years now. Remember all those "restructured" contracts that push money into the future ? Well, the future is here now and the Steelers are out of money and quickly running out of talent (ie draft busts).

The results are now here.

NJarhead
10-03-2013, 06:20 AM
I don't understand the tone of this comment. Are you joking? As in, we have to do something. This is something. Therefore it must be done.

I don't know if this move will end up helping or hurting us in the long run but it certainly doesn't silence the Tomlin critics, especially since you have to admit that we are certainly feeling the impact of all the decisions Tomlin's made so far. It reminds me of when I was a kid and my older brother would dangle me over the balcony, then he would pull me back and say, "look, I just saved your life." The only difference is that it remains to be seen if Tomlin actually does pull us back.

Are you referring to personnel decisions? As if Tomlin has a lot of say there? As the end of the day, we can only keep the players we can afford.

Keep in mind where we've picked in the draft the last several years.

Steeldude
10-03-2013, 06:21 AM
Wait, we traded for a LT, who is poor in pass protection, to replace a LT who was poor in pass in protection? Is this correct? At least he is cheap : ) Keep your fingers crossed and hope for the best

NJarhead
10-03-2013, 07:06 AM
Wait, we traded for a LT, who is poor in pass protection, to replace a LT who was poor in pass in protection? Is this correct? At least he is cheap : ) Keep your fingers crossed and hope for the best

Came on the cheap, sends a message, offers competition, etc. Our options were limited. What would you like to have seen us do?

Steeldude
10-03-2013, 07:46 AM
Came on the cheap, sends a message, offers competition, etc. Our options were limited. What would you like to have seen us do?

I said he was cheap and hope for the best. Whimper offers competition and is cheap also. I commend the Steelers for actually doing something to rectify this glaring problem that was very noticeable in the off-season, pre-season and 2012.

NJarhead
10-03-2013, 07:53 AM
I said he was cheap and hope for the best. Whimper offers competition and is cheap also. I commend the Steelers for actually doing something to rectify this glaring problem that was very noticeable in the off-season, pre-season and 2012.

I can't defend Whimper. Not sure if I should be impressed or concerned that he made the final 53. Jury's still out on that

Texasteel
10-03-2013, 08:16 AM
You both are actually saying the same thing. It's just that one is a little more couscous about it, and one is a little more up beat. Just different personalities. Who knows, the change in scenery may light a fire under Brown. Either way I think we all think he is better than what we have been watching the last 4 games.

Steeldude
10-03-2013, 08:28 AM
You both are actually saying the same thing. It's just that one is a little more couscous about it, and one is a little more up beat. Just different personalities. Who knows, the change in scenery may light a fire under Brown. Either way I think we all think he is better than what we have been watching the last 4 games.

Hopefully it does light a fire.

NJarhead
10-03-2013, 08:31 AM
You both are actually saying the same thing. It's just that one is a little more couscous about it, and one is a little more up beat. Just different personalities. Who knows, the change in scenery may light a fire under Brown. Either way I think we all think he is better than what we have been watching the last 4 games.

I'm not sure where my new found patience came from, but it's making football season much easier (and it came in the nick of time). I didn't scream at the TV until this last week and that was on Ben's INT.

tube517
10-03-2013, 10:05 AM
I'm not sure where my new found patience came from, but it's making football season much easier (and it came in the nick of time). I didn't scream at the TV until this last week and that was on Ben's INT.

I've also been relatively calm this year. I guess I just set low expectations and it looks like I did the right thing

Sent from my SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 4

st33lersguy
10-03-2013, 01:43 PM
At first I thought he was the former Bengals tackle from the Bengals Carson Palmer/Chad Johnson era, the tackle who got in a fight with Joey Porter, before remembering that was Levi Jones and remembered Levi Brown was with the Cardinals

86WARD
10-03-2013, 04:10 PM
Not $840. $715k...even better...for what will most likely be "new trash."

Dwinsgames
10-03-2013, 04:48 PM
Not $840. $715k...even better...for what will most likely be "new trash."


oh he is an upgrade no question about it , just not a big upgrade ..... the price is right provided the draft picks has a low ceiling

the bigger issue for me is the fact that Tomlin , Haley and Bicknell failed to do what it took to give Adams help when it was clear to the entire free world he needed help be it a chip from a RB or a TE to his side to engage and release ...

without help Levi Brown would not have been much ( if any ) better than Adams against Jarred Allen and company .... whats the difference in 3 1/2 sacks and 3 sacks ? not game changing by any means

HollywoodSteel
10-03-2013, 05:12 PM
Are you referring to personnel decisions? As if Tomlin has a lot of say there? As the end of the day, we can only keep the players we can afford.

Keep in mind where we've picked in the draft the last several years.

If he has no say in personnel decisions why should he be getting any credit for doing something now?

HollywoodSteel
10-03-2013, 05:25 PM
Please understand, NJ, that I really don't want to be a Tomlin "hater" and I'm not trying to look smart and win any arguments. I really, really want to be wrong about Tomlin. A lot of really smart and knowledgeable football people insist he is like a top 5 head coach in the league. If they truly know something that I don't I would like it explained to me. I just have a hard time believing that a top tier head coach would be 0-4 with this team, or that a truly great head coach would not have made some moves, done some shuffling, or even done some actual coaching to affect the situation much sooner.

I do want Tomlin to be the great head coach that matches his cool presence and personality. But so far, no matter how many times I ask, no one tells me what aspect of coaching he is really good at.

Dwinsgames
10-03-2013, 05:47 PM
Please understand, NJ, that I really don't want to be a Tomlin "hater" and I'm not trying to look smart and win any arguments. I really, really want to be wrong about Tomlin. A lot of really smart and knowledgeable football people insist he is like a top 5 head coach in the league. If they truly know something that I don't I would like it explained to me. I just have a hard time believing that a top tier head coach would be 0-4 with this team, or that a truly great head coach would not have made some moves, done some shuffling, or even done some actual coaching to affect the situation much sooner.

I do want Tomlin to be the great head coach that matches his cool presence and personality. But so far, no matter how many times I ask, no one tells me what aspect of coaching he is really good at.


silence is golden ....

I believe he inherited a talented team , a team that was 2 years removed from the SB . came in with a new message and invigorated the team and they had success , now that message has become old , cliche and uninspiring ..the players are hearing the same thing we hear every week following a loss rinse repeat for several years and you lose their attention and they have to have the same things going through their heads as we do ... blah blah blah unleash hell blah blah blah ...

he may not have lost this team but IMO he is dam close .. hollow words only get you so far and I believe he is at the end of the line ..... I HOPE I am wrong because I do not see a coaching change being made until his contract expires


this team is lackadaisical , directionless , undisciplined , and poorly coached on a myriad of levels ...

clock management , play calling , personnel , correct personnel for specific formations and game planning

its all bad bad bad bad .....

shit rolls downhill so Tomlin won't be the first to lose his job

HollywoodSteel
10-03-2013, 06:12 PM
silence is golden ....

I believe he inherited a talented team , a team that was 2 years removed from the SB . came in with a new message and invigorated the team and they had success , now that message has become old , cliche and uninspiring ..the players are hearing the same thing we hear every week following a loss rinse repeat for several years and you lose their attention and they have to have the same things going through their heads as we do ... blah blah blah unleash hell blah blah blah ...

he may not have lost this team but IMO he is dam close .. hollow words only get you so far and I believe he is at the end of the line ..... I HOPE I am wrong because I do not see a coaching change being made until his contract expires


this team is lackadaisical , directionless , undisciplined , and poorly coached on a myriad of levels ...

clock management , play calling , personnel , correct personnel for specific formations and game planning

its all bad bad bad bad .....

shit rolls downhill so Tomlin won't be the first to lose his job

This is what I'm inclined to believe as well, but (like you) I hope I am wrong. I often hear that he is a great motivator and leader, and I got that impression of him as well because that's kind of the vibe that he exudes. But you can only hear stuff like "we're gonna unleash hell..." so many times before you realize that if the team doesn't respond by actually unleashing hell then how can you call the guy a great motivator?

I will be the first to admit that I'm not the most knowledgeable Xs and Os guy (but I'm probably not the least knowledgeable either) so if someone wants to show me where I'm going wrong I am more than eager to learn and adapt my opinion accordingly.

I'm happy to look at and study any route trees that anyone wants to put forth if that's what it will take to prove what an awesome job Tomlin is doing. (That's a joke, LLT) ;)

Craic
10-03-2013, 06:18 PM
To answer the last few questions in this thread, I point to the everlasting arguments with a certain member about "NFL talent." NFL talent is never proven until a person actually plays in the NFL. In the same way, a coach can lead when there is some adversity, but it is now, over the next year or so, that we will see his true talents for being a coach and a leader.

And yes, I said a year or two. Those hoping for quick fixes are forgetting once more that this was pratically a planned episode in our team's history due to extending the window of the SB teams we were fielding. Also, what it seems we're clamoring for is free agents or those like free agents that can turn the team around. That is not the Rooney way. We will build through the draft. Some may say, "But look at the drafts we've had." Yep. It's something to keep an eye on, but I'll take the overall track record of this team based on that principle.

steeldawg
10-03-2013, 06:39 PM
To answer the last few questions in this thread, I point to the everlasting arguments with a certain member about "NFL talent." NFL talent is never proven until a person actually plays in the NFL. In the same way, a coach can lead when there is some adversity, but it is now, over the next year or so, that we will see his true talents for being a coach and a leader.

And yes, I said a year or two. Those hoping for quick fixes are forgetting once more that this was pratically a planned episode in our team's history due to extending the window of the SB teams we were fielding. Also, what it seems we're clamoring for is free agents or those like free agents that can turn the team around. That is not the Rooney way. We will build through the draft. Some may say, "But look at the drafts we've had." Yep. It's something to keep an eye on, but I'll take the overall track record of this team based on that principle.

I really want argue this but since we have been warned I will not, I will say this last season nobody was making the argument that mike adams was not talented enough to play in this league. I think his struggles are due to poor coaching the loss of pouncey probably hurts in regards to the line calls and when your qb drops back 50 times to pass with jared allen coming off the edge hes going to beat your tackle more than once. He is struggling but so is the rest of our line, but im not ready to run him out of the league.

Shoes
10-03-2013, 06:46 PM
I don't think we can rely on past track records longer. Tomlin is a very different coach from the previous ones and Art II doesn't have much of his father and grandfather's good side imo. I personally don't think it's going to fair well....but I hope I'm wrong.

SteelMayhem72
10-03-2013, 06:53 PM
Beachum will be moving to left tackle!!

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And I bet either adams or wimper will move to the right side...I have to say Im very impressed with Beachum..dude can play anywhere which says a lot for this team

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Only reason we picked up Brown was for depth and thats it!

steeldawg
10-03-2013, 06:57 PM
Beachum will be moving to left tackle!!

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And I bet either adams or wimper will move to the right side...I have to say Im very impressed with Beachum..dude can play anywhere which says a lot for this team

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Only reason we picked up Brown was for depth and thats it!

Is this your opinion or is this confirmed?

zulater
10-03-2013, 07:11 PM
I've heard Craig Wolfley say that 65% of Adams problem stems from poor foot work. That his feet put his body out of balance and that he ends up lunging or ducking instead of punching out or shadowing.

SteelMayhem72
10-03-2013, 07:43 PM
Actually I did hear on nfl radio that beachum will start at LT

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Adams is a lazy ass to be honest...i still think he would be a liability even on the right side! The guy thats gonna end up being a stud on the O line is DeCastro!

ALLD
10-03-2013, 09:23 PM
Tomlin's Hail Mary. Ladies and gentlemen, the season is over.

Craic
10-03-2013, 10:19 PM
I really want argue this but since we have been warned I will not, I will say this last season nobody was making the argument that mike adams was not talented enough to play in this league. I think his struggles are due to poor coaching the loss of pouncey probably hurts in regards to the line calls and when your qb drops back 50 times to pass with jared allen coming off the edge hes going to beat your tackle more than once. He is struggling but so is the rest of our line, but im not ready to run him out of the league.

Actually, I think Mike Adams is suffering from being put on the wrong side. The only time he was really exposed last year at all was against NY, and that was against a top notch DE.

zulater
10-03-2013, 11:20 PM
Actually, I think Mike Adams is suffering from being put on the wrong side. The only time he was really exposed last year at all was against NY, and that was against a top notch DE.

Actually I think he's regressed as a player and until they correct where he's fundamentally wrong in his technique, and he gets his head into his assignment he's not fit to play anywhere.

Craic
10-04-2013, 12:02 AM
I've heard Craig Wolfley say that 65% of Adams problem stems from poor foot work. That his feet put his body out of balance and that he ends up lunging or ducking instead of punching out or shadowing.
Wasn't that exactly Max Starks's problem?

And yes, while I agree probably has problems and needs to work on them. He won't get that work on the bench. The way this season is going, let him get the work. One of our biggest problems is that we have a front line that represent vagabonds more than boulders.

Count Steeler
10-04-2013, 04:47 AM
I really want argue this but since we have been warned I will not, I will say this last season nobody was making the argument that mike adams was not talented enough to play in this league. I think his struggles are due to poor coaching the loss of pouncey probably hurts in regards to the line calls and when your qb drops back 50 times to pass with jared allen coming off the edge hes going to beat your tackle more than once. He is struggling but so is the rest of our line, but im not ready to run him out of the league.

Mike was drafted as a second round "steal" and was projected to be our LT of the future. He has only impressed at RT. He should remain on the right and the Steelers should address the gaping whole at LT. If we are in the top 10 in the draft, I certainly hope they address LT. Unless Beachum shows he can fill the hole. He is smart enough and he has a strong work ethic.

steeldawg
10-04-2013, 05:41 AM
Actually I think he's regressed as a player and until they correct where he's fundamentally wrong in his technique, and he gets his head into his assignment he's not fit to play anywhere.

This is where our coaching comes in to play, technique and scheme, what in the world does the o-line coach work on in practice? Game in and game out I watch not just guys getting beat but guys consistently out of position and a lot of free runners at the qb. This is something I don't know maybe someone has some insight, is ben changing protections at the line and if so maybe he's not making the right reads?

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Mike was drafted as a second round "steal" and was projected to be our LT of the future. He has only impressed at RT. He should remain on the right and the Steelers should address the gaping whole at LT. If we are in the top 10 in the draft, I certainly hope they address LT. Unless Beachum shows he can fill the hole. He is smart enough and he has a strong work ethic.

You wont get any argument from me on that.

zulater
10-04-2013, 05:45 AM
Gilbert and Adams can fight it out for the next 12 games to see which of them, (if either) is good enough to be the long term answer at right tackle. Outside of emergency in game injury situation, neither should ever take another snap at left tackle.

NJarhead
10-04-2013, 06:24 AM
If he has no say in personnel decisions why should he be getting any credit for doing something now?

I never said "no say." He's not the money guy and at the end of the day, it comes down to the numbers.

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Please understand, NJ, that I really don't want to be a Tomlin "hater" and I'm not trying to look smart and win any arguments. I really, really want to be wrong about Tomlin. A lot of really smart and knowledgeable football people insist he is like a top 5 head coach in the league. If they truly know something that I don't I would like it explained to me. I just have a hard time believing that a top tier head coach would be 0-4 with this team, or that a truly great head coach would not have made some moves, done some shuffling, or even done some actual coaching to affect the situation much sooner.

I do want Tomlin to be the great head coach that matches his cool presence and personality. But so far, no matter how many times I ask, no one tells me what aspect of coaching he is really good at.

I think he's a great leader. I can't speak of his coaching, though he's produced in the past.

If anything, he's made some poor decisions regarding his staff.

Mojouw
10-04-2013, 08:23 AM
Adams was pretty well regarded coming out of college. Slipped in the round due to marijuana related character concerns. Just another example of the overrated nature of some college prospects/programs (ahem...cough...Big 10...cough). I think several folks pointed out that his footwork in pass pro sucked, he looked like he wasn't NFL strong...etc. So basically another over-hyped Big 10 lineman (As a Wisconsin fan this is all too familiar).

The sad part about this is that Adams supposed problems coming out of college, still exist a few years later. So either there has bee no coaching, improper coaching, or this young man is too stupid and stubborn to get better. Since, to me, most of his mistakes that I have seen look to be largely mental, I suspect Adams is largely too stupid to "get it".

NJarhead
10-04-2013, 08:27 AM
Adams was pretty well regarded coming out of college. Slipped in the round due to marijuana related character concerns. Just another example of the overrated nature of some college prospects/programs (ahem...cough...Big 10...cough). I think several folks pointed out that his footwork in pass pro sucked, he looked like he wasn't NFL strong...etc. So basically another over-hyped Big 10 lineman (As a Wisconsin fan this is all too familiar).

The sad part about this is that Adams supposed problems coming out of college, still exist a few years later. So either there has bee no coaching, improper coaching, or this young man is too stupid and stubborn to get better. Since, to me, most of his mistakes that I have seen look to be largely mental, I suspect Adams is largely too stupid to "get it".

Here is a great article about exactly what you're talking about, but with a bit different perspective.


This is really about subtraction as opposed to addition.
Mike Adams has played very poorly, no doubt, and I agreed with the idea of sitting him down. But he's 24 years old. I wasn't good at ANYthing when I was 24. I get that he's a professional athlete, but they don't all come ready-made from a box. Regardless of how high they're drafted, the learning curve is unique to the individual. He looks lost and is playing without any confidence.

You do the same thing with him the Steelers did with Bradshaw (relative to today's standards, not the 70s). Have the coach work him into the ground and be hard on him, then have ownership/general management give him the bigger picture support. Sit him, and have Colbert tell him, as the Chief often told Brad, "You're the best!"

Regardless of what people think about Adams as a football player, Adams is a very high-level athlete. You can't just disregard that after four games with his second offensive line coach in two years as a pro. He needs to mature and get to work, no doubt, but it's not even close to the time to cast him off.


http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/10/3/4798890/steelers-levi-brown-trade-mike-adams-offensive-tackle-depth-chart

Mojouw
10-04-2013, 08:46 AM
Here is a great article about exactly what you're talking about, but with a bit different perspective.



http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/10/3/4798890/steelers-levi-brown-trade-mike-adams-offensive-tackle-depth-chart

Certainly is a bit more hopeful. I get that he is "too good" to totally part with. Hell, that is why Guy Whimper (note, I think Adams is better than Whimper) is still in the league. Dudes who are that large and can be athletic in any fashion are worthy of multiple chances at success. Hopefully, Adams can figure it out and get back to being a "potential" long-term solution at LT.

I doubt it though.

NJarhead
10-04-2013, 08:49 AM
Certainly is a bit more hopeful. I get that he is "too good" to totally part with. Hell, that is why Guy Whimper (note, I think Adams is better than Whimper) is still in the league. Dudes who are that large and can be athletic in any fashion are worthy of multiple chances at success. Hopefully, Adams can figure it out and get back to being a "potential" long-term solution at LT.

I doubt it though.

Whimper's existence in the NFL is a mystery to me.

Mojouw
10-04-2013, 08:54 AM
Whimper's existence in the NFL is a mystery to me.

Just think, for several years, he was the NY Giants developmental LT of the future. Might be the one team in the league who has a worse track record of linemen recently.

NJarhead
10-04-2013, 09:01 AM
Just think, for several years, he was the NY Giants developmental LT of the future. Might be the one team in the league who has a worse track record of linemen recently.

Being in NYG territory, I see all of their games. Whimper's name came up about as much as Ta'amatu's with us.

Steelman
10-04-2013, 10:57 AM
Just think, for several years, he was the NY Giants developmental LT of the future. Might be the one team in the league who has a worse track record of linemen recently.

And both of our teams are 0-4. Strange coincidence?

BnG_Hevn
10-04-2013, 11:53 AM
Just think, for several years, he was the NY Giants developmental LT of the future. Might be the one team in the league who has a worse track record of linemen recently.

What is the Giants' record?

NJarhead
10-04-2013, 12:05 PM
What is the Giants' record?

Same as ours, but Guy Whimper isn't to blame for either of them.

Psycho Ward 86
10-04-2013, 01:21 PM
Just think, for several years, he was the NY Giants developmental LT of the future. Might be the one team in the league who has a worse track record of linemen recently.

hell no. Chris Snee (3x all-pro, 4x pro bowler), Shaun O'Hara (1x all-pro, 3x pro bowler), Rich Seubert (GM jerry reese called him the MVP of the team 2 years ago), William Beatty (Ranked by PFF as the #5 left tackle in the league).

id give an arm for that kind of luck. all we got is pouncey. and probably decastro if he keeps getting better



http://bigblueblitz.com/william-beatty/pff-giants-will-beatty-jason-pierre-paul-a-value-at-their-positions/
http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/6803483/sources-new-york-giants-tell-shaun-ohara-rich-seubert-released

Mojouw
10-04-2013, 01:40 PM
Let me clarify, in the first four games of this season, the Giants are blocking less pass rushers than the Steelers are. I think their problem is injuries rather than lack of talent.

Count Steeler
10-06-2013, 05:54 AM
386204523150061568

HollywoodSteel
10-07-2013, 03:34 PM
I never said "no say." He's not the money guy and at the end of the day, it comes down to the numbers.

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I'm just trying to stay internally consistent for the purposes of the discussion. Your guess is as good as mine on this. I was addressing your comment about Tomlin being "all talk" which I think was a little off the mark. If we want to give him credit (for as much or as little as you see fit) for this decision, then he should be given the same credit/blame for the putting us in this position with as much time as he he's had to evaluate Adams and the rest of the line. But the truth is, I don't think anyone believes that Tomlin is literally "all talk." If people have used those words it is most likely to imply that he talks a great game but when it comes to actual coaching, his actions don't match the level of his talk.



I think he's a great leader. I can't speak of his coaching, though he's produced in the past.

If anything, he's made some poor decisions regarding his staff.

I would appreciate it if you would tell me what you think a great leader is and why you think Tomlin deserves that label. Again, I'm not trying to win an argument with you. I respect your opinion and just want to understand it better. You're a military guy so maybe that can help illustrate your position. When I think of a great general I think of a guy who can not only inspire people with his words but is also a great strategist, personnel evaluator, teacher of men, etc. Politicians give great speeches; generals figure out how to win wars. Are we just missing each other with the semantics or do you believe that Tomlin fits the criteria I've laid out here?

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I'm not sure why it put my first response in the middle there. I guess I screwed it up, but I'm sure you'll be able to decipher it.

ALLD
10-07-2013, 07:54 PM
Giants used to have a great OL. Our best OL in recent history was Fanacea's last season. He probably would have gotten paid if he kept his yap shut. He went to AZ and did nothing, but collect a check for showing up.

Hawkman
10-07-2013, 08:07 PM
Giants used to have a great OL. Our best OL in recent history was Fanacea's last season. He probably would have gotten paid if he kept his yap shut. He went to AZ and did nothing, but collect a check for showing up.

Didn't he have a decent stint with the Jets before he went to AZ?

Dwinsgames
10-07-2013, 08:21 PM
Didn't he have a decent stint with the Jets before he went to AZ?

yea he was there

Seven
10-08-2013, 01:20 AM
I don't have an issue with this move at all. We weren't going to be able to go out and get a Jake Long at this point, might as well mix it up somehow. And you could get worse value for a late round pick than Levi Brown. Not sure by how much, but I think this makes the team better not worse.

NJarhead
10-08-2013, 06:54 AM
I would appreciate it if you would tell me what you think a great leader is and why you think Tomlin deserves that label. Again, I'm not trying to win an argument with you. I respect your opinion and just want to understand it better. You're a military guy so maybe that can help illustrate your position. When I think of a great general I think of a guy who can not only inspire people with his words but is also a great strategist, personnel evaluator, teacher of men, etc. Politicians give great speeches; generals figure out how to win wars. Are we just missing each other with the semantics or do you believe that Tomlin fits the criteria I've laid out here?

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I'm not sure why it put my first response in the middle there. I guess I screwed it up, but I'm sure you'll be able to decipher it.

No worries.

I did address all of your questions throughout the thread. I can only judge him on what I've seen, and I haven't seen much. However, I've had the fortune of having been led by some very good, effective and natural leaders in my life and they all share one trait; they each emanated a ....(can't think of the right word, so I'll use) "swagger." What ever you want to call it. There was never a doubt about who was in charge. Some leaders micro manage and are in your face all the time. Others, are so weak that they will rarely require any thing of you. Tomlin, to me, is reminiscent of the best type of leader: He, in no uncertain terms, defines what he expects and leaves his players and coaches to get it done. I believe he's involved, but despite being 0-4, he's remaining patient, not panicking, but applying pressure while still letting his coaches coach and his player learn and adjust.

We're not losing because of lack of effort. I think our biggest problem is bad o-line coaching and that our OC isn't putting our players in the best position to succeed. THAT is something Tomlin can have direct control over (as opposed to making Mike Adams block better or making Ben not fumble). If there's a knock on him, I would say that it's because he's been too patient, but that's not something I'd beat him up for. Too many coaches (and shit leaders), go right into micro-manage mode in situations like this. Those are, by far, the worst leaders there are.

I'm sure I left out some details, but that's pretty much my opinion. Had it not been so long ago, I may have been able to throw some fancy terms at you from my NCO leadership school experience. haha.

Texasteel
10-08-2013, 06:10 PM
The addition of Brown will make us better as far as the line is concerned, IMO. None the less, at best Brown will come in and play at least half way to his ability, Adams will move to the right side were I think he looked much more comfortable. We still need a LG, but if Beachum is as good across the line as I have been hearing I think I might move him into that position, Let him own the position and not be a, fill in were we need you player. This on paper would improve our line. At worse, Brown will be a little better that Adams at LT, Adams will fail at RT, which would mean we are no worse off there. This would still improve our line slightly.

Going to be interesting to see how this shakes out.

salamander
10-08-2013, 06:45 PM
386204523150061568

Can't beat the price.

HollywoodSteel
10-09-2013, 07:59 PM
No worries.

I did address all of your questions throughout the thread. I can only judge him on what I've seen, and I haven't seen much. However, I've had the fortune of having been led by some very good, effective and natural leaders in my life and they all share one trait; they each emanated a ....(can't think of the right word, so I'll use) "swagger." What ever you want to call it. There was never a doubt about who was in charge. Some leaders micro manage and are in your face all the time. Others, are so weak that they will rarely require any thing of you. Tomlin, to me, is reminiscent of the best type of leader: He, in no uncertain terms, defines what he expects and leaves his players and coaches to get it done. I believe he's involved, but despite being 0-4, he's remaining patient, not panicking, but applying pressure while still letting his coaches coach and his player learn and adjust.

We're not losing because of lack of effort. I think our biggest problem is bad o-line coaching and that our OC isn't putting our players in the best position to succeed. THAT is something Tomlin can have direct control over (as opposed to making Mike Adams block better or making Ben not fumble). If there's a knock on him, I would say that it's because he's been too patient, but that's not something I'd beat him up for. Too many coaches (and shit leaders), go right into micro-manage mode in situations like this. Those are, by far, the worst leaders there are.

I'm sure I left out some details, but that's pretty much my opinion. Had it not been so long ago, I may have been able to throw some fancy terms at you from my NCO leadership school experience. haha.

Okay. I get what you mean. He does have swagger. But I guess I'll take a socially inept genius like Bill Belichick who leads by, you know, actually coaching really well rather than a "leader" with swagger who is leading you right off a cliff. :)

NJarhead
10-10-2013, 06:29 AM
Okay. I get what you mean. He does have swagger. But I guess I'll take a socially inept genius like Bill Belichick who leads by, you know, actually coaching really well rather than a "leader" with swagger who is leading you right off a cliff. :)

Bill has the "swagger" I'm referring to as well. He just chooses to limit his personality in public or in front of the media. Speaking of Cowher, no question he was a fiery leader, but in front for the media he was stone faced and offered as concise an answer to the question as possible. However, I do suspect that he may have suffered from the micro-management bug when we had big games (mainly the playoffs).

zulater
10-10-2013, 07:05 AM
Bill has the "swagger" I'm referring to as well. He just chooses to limit his personality in public or in front of the media. Speaking of Cowher, no question he was a fiery leader, but in front for the media he was stone faced and offered as concise an answer to the question as possible. However, I do suspect that he may have suffered from the micro-management bug when we had big games (mainly the playoffs).

I think it was more of a micro-quarterback issue.

NJarhead
10-10-2013, 07:39 AM
I think it was more of a micro-quarterback issue.

With the exception of SB XXX, Bill would play "not-to-lose" in the play-offs and consequently, we would do just that. I'm sure you saw the XL clips of Ben asking him to let the offense keep playing and Bill promised they would. Ben's question confirmed what was already known.

That said, it was what it was. I loved Cowher and he'll always be one of the best in my opinion. But I think highly of Tomlin too. Maybe we should sign a seriously shitty HC for a year or two so Steelers Nation actually remembers what one REALLY looks like.

zulater
10-10-2013, 08:03 AM
With the exception of SB XXX, Bill would play "not-to-lose" in the play-offs and consequently, we would do just that. I'm sure you saw the XL clips of Ben asking him to let the offense keep playing and Bill promised they would. Ben's question confirmed what was already known.

That said, it was what it was. I loved Cowher and he'll always be one of the best in my opinion. But I think highly of Tomlin too. Maybe we should sign a seriously shitty HC for a year or two so Steelers Nation actually remembers what one REALLY looks like.

We can see around the league, we know what bad coaches are about. We don't need to be punished for our insolence.

And I'm not so certain that Tomlin is as good as we thought he was. Next 12 weeks could go a long way in defining him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that he needs to go 8-4 or better from here on out. ( though it would be nice) But the team has to show signs of improvement. It has to stop making so many mistakes. Part of the problem is that many of the Steelers problems are self inflicted. If I thought they were getting the most out of their talent I would just grin and bear it and accept this season for what it is.

Speaking of which, I don't think the team even knows what they hell direction they're going in? Are we retooling, rebuilding, or can we win with what we've got? When the coaching staff can come to a consensus on that maybe we'll start seeing some steps in the right direction? But right now we just look like a rudderless ship being tossed about by a storm. Are we headed for the rocks or calm waters where repairs can be made? :noidea:

I guess what I'm saying is I just wish we had a better sense of the direction the team is going in. Right now it seems as if there is no direction even being aimed at.

NJarhead
10-10-2013, 08:17 AM
We can see around the league, we know what bad coaches are about. We don't need to be punished for our insolence.
:lol:



And I'm not so certain that Tomlin is as good as we thought he was. Next 12 weeks could go a long way in defining him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that he needs to go 8-4 or better from here on out. ( though it would be nice) But the team has to show signs of improvement. It has to stop making so many mistakes. Part of the problem is that many of the Steelers problems are self inflicted. If I thought they were getting the most out of their talent I would just grin and bear it and accept this season for what it is.

They have (save for the defense in London). We just haven't been doing enough to win, but we've only been a play or two away in nearly every game.


Speaking of which, I don't think the team even knows what they hell direction they're going in? Are we retooling, rebuilding, or can we win with what we've got? When the coaching staff can come to a consensus on that maybe we'll start seeing some steps in the right direction? But right now we just look like a rudderless ship being tossed about by a storm. Are we headed for the rocks or calm waters where repairs can be made? :noidea:

I guess what I'm saying is I just wish we had a better sense of the direction the team is going in. Right now it seems as if there is no direction even being aimed at.

Jacksonville is a rudderless ship and I wouldn't compare the Steelers to them. I'd go with a sail boat that can't find the wind. :chuckle:

HollywoodSteel
10-10-2013, 12:22 PM
Maybe we should sign a seriously shitty HC for a year or two so Steelers Nation actually remembers what one REALLY looks like.

What would that look like exactly and how would we tell the difference? I know that can be read in a snotty tone, but I don't mean it that way. Sometimes I can be overly literal, but this stuff interests me. We were 8-8 last year (and I know injuries were a big part of that, but the better coaches with elite QBs overcome injuries. Look at the Pats right now or the Broncos. If we had their injuries/suspensions we would expect nothing from Tomlin's team) and we started 0-4 this year with a moderately talented team and an elite QB. What does really bad coaching look like?

NJarhead
10-10-2013, 01:02 PM
What would that look like exactly and how would we tell the difference? I know that can be read in a snotty tone, but I don't mean it that way. Sometimes I can be overly literal, but this stuff interests me. We were 8-8 last year (and I know injuries were a big part of that, but the better coaches with elite QBs overcome injuries. Look at the Pats right now or the Broncos. If we had their injuries/suspensions we would expect nothing from Tomlin's team) and we started 0-4 this year with a moderately talented team and an elite QB. What does really bad coaching look like?

We one the SB with arguably the worst o-line to ever appear in the big show. We've overcome adversity in the past under Tomlin and I think you're forgetting that. We are not the Jaguars.

"If" my aunt had balls, she'd be my Uncle. I'm going to agree to disagree with you and be done with this debate. Have a good one.

vader29
10-13-2013, 11:51 AM
Out for game, triceps injury in pregame warmups. :frusty:

HollywoodSteel
10-13-2013, 11:54 AM
Out for game, triceps injury in pregame warmups. :frusty:

You've got to be kidding me...

tube517
10-13-2013, 11:55 AM
Out for game, triceps injury in pregame warmups. :frusty:

Not that I had hopes of him being any kind of improvement but there goes the depth. That leaves whoever is not at RT as the backup and then Whimpy behind them?

HollywoodSteel
10-13-2013, 11:56 AM
Is Beachum starting?

vader29
10-13-2013, 12:01 PM
Is Beachum starting?

Yes.

Dwinsgames
10-13-2013, 12:02 PM
heard whispers they where thinking about suiting up Marcelle ( or whatever his name is ) the PT guy that Spence couldn't cover

Mistah Q
10-13-2013, 01:31 PM
This is ludicrous - on its own a triceps in practice is something that could happen to anyone, but we have a pretty systemic problem here. Let's just fire the entire conditioning staff.

zulater
10-13-2013, 03:42 PM
Is Beachum starting?

How did he play?

steeldawg
10-13-2013, 03:53 PM
How did he play?

Beachum did not have a strong game at all

ALLD
10-13-2013, 04:04 PM
Got to give it to Brown, no penalties all day.

Mistah Q
10-13-2013, 04:07 PM
I think Haley ran a good game today considering what he has to work with. It's clear that the talent evaluation that went into assembling our O-line has been... a bit of a problem. The rest of this season will be quite telling.

stillers4me
10-13-2013, 04:07 PM
Thanks for all you've done, Levi Brown. We barely knew ye....

Mistah Q
10-13-2013, 04:11 PM
One of the Jets' drives was killed by a penalty on Willie Colon, however... :pointlaugh:

stillers4me
10-13-2013, 04:12 PM
One of the Jets' drives was killed by a penalty on Willie Colon, however... :pointlaugh:

Did anyone else go "Dammit, Willie!" Then..."oh".

HollywoodSteel
10-13-2013, 05:41 PM
I think there are lemon laws in place so that we can return Levi Brown and get our money back.

No? Well, it was worth a try.

zulater
10-13-2013, 05:59 PM
God is telling them to bring back Max Starks! :heh:

Texasteel
10-13-2013, 07:06 PM
All I heard was that he hurt his arm. I take it he is going to be gone for a very long time.

steeldawg
10-13-2013, 07:07 PM
At least he didn't miss any blocks

Psycho Ward 86
10-13-2013, 07:18 PM
well, he didnt give up sacks today or get called for holding. you guys call him inactive, i call him an upgrade :chuckle:

HollywoodSteel
10-13-2013, 07:43 PM
well, he didnt give up sacks today or get called for holding. you guys call him inactive, i call him an upgrade :chuckle:

Okay, that got an actual snort of out loud laughter from me. :lol: