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katmandu
09-23-2013, 09:51 AM
Early last season Ben was on fire easily having some of the best performances of his career. Then he gets injured and it's been downhill from there. Yes of course the O-Line has been porous this year, but Ben's throwing accuracy has been complete shit this year and his ball security skills are abysmal! He's been more much more reckless and careless in the pocket than any other time in his career.

How could a QB considered so "elite" early last season self-destruct so rapidly ?

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We all know Haley and Co having been trying to get Ben to get rid of the ball and reduce his sack percentage but this game was freakin ridiculous !

Count Steeler
09-23-2013, 11:41 AM
I've said this before, I wonder if he is not fully recovered from his injuries last year. If he still has pain in his right rib and shoulder, that would explain his overthrows.

Plus, with all the hits he has taken over the years, he can't be 100%.

It also doesn't help now that he has a reputation of being loose with the football. Defenders must lick their chops when they know they are playing the Steelers. O Line that can't block and a QB that can't hold on to the ball anymore.

Devilsdancefloor
09-23-2013, 12:01 PM
he has turned into kent graham over the summer? i actually think Haley is trying to coral him and it has changed his play. There was a few times last night we got to see the Ben we are used to but then he seemed to get reeled in again

Count Steeler
09-23-2013, 12:12 PM
Let's face it. Ben was developing into a great QB last year. When we had a running game (Dwyer had back to back 100), our O Line didn't choose to block air, and we had deep threats and release valves. Ben went through his progressions and our offense looked formidable. Too bad it lasted all of about 4 games.

DeCastro has to get over himself and get friggin' nasty. Colon, last year, brought that intensity that is so sorely lacking on this O Line. Remember it was Colon who used Burfict as a gym mat. That incident set the tempo for a good 5-6 games.

When you put on the helmet you better be ready to rip off your own mother's head. When the game is over, you can be as gentlemenly as you want to be. When the helmet is on, hit whatever is moving in your vicinity (as long as it is not your own player) and inflict some pain. O linemen should be relishing the opportunity to hit on every play, not avoiding it.

steeldawg
09-23-2013, 12:52 PM
Ben is the same guy, he is the main reason we where even in that game. The difference from years past is in the past we where good enough where Ben only had to mak those crazy throws a few times a game, this year he is having to make those plays on every drive, so the chances of making a mistake is multiplied.

Spike
09-23-2013, 06:26 PM
Fire whoever thought two unproven rookie stiffs would be our starting OT's.

Start there.

Edman
09-23-2013, 07:05 PM
Simply Put, He's been exposed.

He's the same guy he's always been. It's just that his tendencies (Last One In, First One to Leave) is finally catching up with him. In the past, he could get away with mediocre inconsistency because the Defense would always save his skin with big plays.

The Big Plays from the Defense are gone. This is not a Steelers Defense Ben can ride to the Super Bowl anymore. The Steelers Defense is younger, and very inexperienced. Ben as one of the few veterans on the team, has to up his game, and that means scoring more points. The Offense has to take the lead. So far he's failed miserably having to shoulder a bigger load and be "the man".

GoSlash27
09-23-2013, 07:08 PM
I think he was just plain trying too hard to do it on his own and making mistakes as a result. Anyone know what's up with his hand?

steeldawg
09-23-2013, 07:11 PM
That's simply not true we had a great defense before ben even got to the team and we weren't winning superbowls. Your going to tell me if we would of kept tommy Maddox we could of rode our defense to two superbowls?

fansince'76
09-23-2013, 08:13 PM
In a nutshell? This...over and over and over again...for years on end...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtcQqwpCFJ4

fansince'76
09-23-2013, 08:16 PM
Simply Put, He's been exposed.

He's the same guy he's always been. It's just that his tendencies (Last One In, First One to Leave) is finally catching up with him. In the past, he could get away with mediocre inconsistency because the Defense would always save his skin with big plays.

The Big Plays from the Defense are gone. This is not a Steelers Defense Ben can ride to the Super Bowl anymore.

Yep...that certainly explains the quarter-century drought between Lombardi Trophies this team experienced despite the dominant Blitzburgh defenses, not to mention running games, of the '90s and early 2000s, all right.

A very sizable portion of this fanbase DESERVES another Mark Malone/Cliff Stoudt/Bubby Brister/Kent Graham/Kordell Stewart/Tommy Maddox, et al. at this point.

zulater
09-23-2013, 08:51 PM
Yep...that certainly explains the quarter-century drought between Lombardi Trophies this team experienced despite the dominant Blitzburgh defenses, not to mention running games, of the '90s and early 2000s, all right.

A very sizable portion of this fanbase DESERVES another Mark Malone/Cliff Stoudt/Bubby Brister/Kent Graham/Kordell Stewart/Tommy Maddox, et al. at this point.

I think it's a very small minority that think as Edman does.


Other than that your post is spot on. If Ben never wins another game for the Steelers or even completes another pass he's already an all time great for this team. He took us to 3 Super Bowls, winning 2. For that I'm eternally grateful.

SteelerFanInStl
09-23-2013, 08:51 PM
Yep...that certainly explains the quarter-century drought between Lombardi Trophies this team experienced despite the dominant Blitzburgh defenses, not to mention running games, of the '90s and early 2000s, all right.

A very sizable portion of this fanbase DESERVES another Mark Malone/Cliff Stoudt/Bubby Brister/Kent Graham/Kordell Stewart/Tommy Maddox, et al. at this point.

Exactly! It makes me wonder if they were even a fan during those years.

JayC
09-23-2013, 09:16 PM
Fire whoever thought two unproven rookie stiffs would be our starting OT's.

Start there.

speaking of stiff, ben's hips are looking stiff and old. looks like years of taking a beating has finally caught up. trade him at the end of the year to a team that has a good offensive line and we start over.

steel9guy
09-23-2013, 09:22 PM
Ben's fine, I still think he can do great things for this team. I certainly hope we don't give up on him because he's given Pittsburgh 2 rings. Sorry, without Ben those two Superbowls don't happen.

Shoes
09-23-2013, 09:35 PM
No doubt Ben is having some problems......his larger problem is Bicknell.....Tomlins guy.

Bicknell believes the offensive line, built with athletic, agile players who were high draft picks, is ready to emerge."These guys are at a point where we're going to really start to jell," Bicknell said. "It's not like they're young anymore. I think we're close. Sometimes it doesn't look like we're close, but we are."

This guy should be the first to go after saying this. He is a perfect example of what is written in my sig. At the rate things are going, Ben won't make it to mid season. Gilbert and Adams should be sent down the Ohio on a river barge.

Texasteel
09-23-2013, 09:52 PM
I looked to me that Ben might have seen a win within reach, and just tried to do to much. He did look a half a step off most of the night.

katmandu
09-23-2013, 10:15 PM
DeCastro has to get over himself and get friggin' nasty. Colon, last year, brought that intensity that is so sorely lacking on this O Line. Remember it was Colon who used Burfict as a gym mat. That incident set the tempo for a good 5-6 games.

When you put on the helmet you better be ready to rip off your own mother's head. When the game is over, you can be as gentlemenly as you want to be. When the helmet is on, hit whatever is moving in your vicinity (as long as it is not your own player) and inflict some pain. O linemen should be relishing the opportunity to hit on every play, not avoiding it.Exactly. I liked Willie. Think we shoulda kept him. He undoubtably brought that nasty, killer instinct to the O-Line. These kids we got just don't have that. Unfortunately, that attitude is exactly what's needed.

HollywoodSteel
09-24-2013, 09:29 AM
I think some people are missing the point with the whole "stupid fans who should be happy we don't have Kent Graham..." Yes, of course. Every morning and every night we should thank the football gods for delivering us from the bad QBs of the past and bringing forth the Chosen One who have bestowed upon us wretched, worthless, buyers of Steelers gear and generator of ratings dollars, two golden rings.

But once we acknowledge how lucky we are to have Ben, then can we put forth some modest criticism of him because, dare I say, he could actually be better than he is. Because, I don't know, some people care to debate such things, siting observations of the game and whatnot, here on a Steelers discussion board.

I apologize if I seem a but harsh but the only thing that brings that out in me here is fans telling other fans (who obviously bleed Black and Gold because they bother to come to Steelers board at all) that they are spoiled, ungrateful, or in any way not a proper fan because they dare to post an opinion. No player, coach, or member of the Steelers staff should be above criticism or praise for their performance in their duties. If the board had been around in the '70s and Bradshaw himself, who gave us four golden rings, was playing not up to his potential, which happened now and then, it
Would be a topic worthy of discussion no matter how much better he was than QBs past.

zulater
09-24-2013, 09:44 AM
Roethlisberger had a “clean” pocket in which he did not have to step up, scramble or throw quicker than he would've liked on 27 of the 46 times he dropped back to pass.

Roethlisberger got rid of the ball in an average of 2.3 seconds when he wasn't pressured, which resulted in a couple of big plays down the field.

When he was pressured, those numbers changed a lot.

Roethlisberger didn't have a “clean” pocket on 19 throwing plays, which included 14 pass attempts, three sacks and two running plays.

Roethlisberger completed 7 of 14 passes for 111 yards and a pair of interceptions when he was pressured.

When Roethlisberger was pressured, it came quickly. Chicago got got to him within two seconds seven times with the majority of those comes because of left tackle Mike Adams.

Adams allowed five hurries of Roethlisberger including one sack. All five of Adams' hurries gave Roethlisberger less than three seconds to get rid of the ball — 2.7, 2.3, 2.8, 2.9 and 2.9.



Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/4752304-74/roethlisberger-steelers-bears#ixzz2fozh2h61
Follow us: @triblive on Twitter | triblive on Facebook

zulater
09-24-2013, 10:05 AM
Conversely with a clean pocket Ben was 19-27 for 295 yards 2 TD's and 0 interceptions. I don't know how to do passer ratings, but that looks like it's a pretty good one. So it looks pretty simple, give Ben a clean pocket and you'll have good results. Now obviously Ben plays a part in that and has to read the blitz and find his hot. But part of it also is that reading the blitz doesn't protect you from your linemen getting beat outright by the guy in front of him. And with this offensive line that's way too often the case.

Craic
09-24-2013, 10:09 AM
Conversely with a clean pocket Ben was 19-27 for 295 yards 2 TD's and 0 interceptions. I don't know how to do passer ratings, but that looks like it's a pretty good one. So it looks pretty simple, give Ben a clean pocket and you'll have good results. Now obviously Ben plays a part in that and has to read the blitz and find his hot. But part of it also is that reading the blitz doesn't protect you from your linemen getting beat outright by the guy in front of him. And with this offensive line that's way too often the case.
http://www.primecomputing.com/ to computer passer ratings.

The problem, Zu, is that I could almost be an NFL QB if I was promised a clean pocket. The mark of a NFL QB isn't how he throws with a clean pocket, but how he throws under pressure. Those numbers are expected of a QB that isn't under pressure. Matter of fact, I'm disappointed in his completion percentage being so low when he's not under pressure.

zulater
09-24-2013, 10:17 AM
http://www.primecomputing.com/ to computer passer ratings.

The problem, Zu, is that I could almost be an NFL QB if I was promised a clean pocket. The mark of a NFL QB isn't how he throws with a clean pocket, but how he throws under pressure. Those numbers are expected of a QB that isn't under pressure. Matter of fact, I'm disappointed in his completion percentage being so low when he's not under pressure.

I know what you're saying, but at the same token as someone who lives halfway between Philadelphia and Baltimore I see of lot of Eagle and Ravens' games. And believe me Flacco and Vick are quite capable of missing throws with a clean pocket. :lol:

Obviously negotiating pressure is a big part of the job of an NFL qb. But still when your tackles are a constant concern it weighs on you. I don't think there's more than a handfull of quarterbacks who could do much better with our line and backs playing as they are. There were signs of improvement, and if Ben's focus can be more down the field than what's in his immediate area then his confidence and accuracy will improve.

Oh and thanks for the link, with a clean pocket Ben's passer rating was 130.9.

Craic
09-24-2013, 10:41 AM
I know what you're saying, but at the same token as someone who lives halfway between Philadelphia and Baltimore I see of lot of Eagle and Ravens' games. And believe me Flacco and Vick are quite capable of missing throws with a clean pocket. :lol:

Obviously negotiating pressure is a big part of the job of an NFL qb. But still when your tackles are a constant concern it weighs on you. I don't think there's more than a handfull of quarterbacks who could do much better with our line and backs playing as they are. There were signs of improvement, and if Ben's focus can be more down the field than what's in his immediate area then his confidence and accuracy will improve.

Oh and thanks for the link, with a clean pocket Ben's passer rating was 130.9.

Two names spring to mind in this discussion. 1. Rick Mirer. 2. Tom Brady.

Rick Mirer had all the tools to be a top notch NFL QB. However, when his offensive line let him get drilled game after game, he went into a massive slump his sophomore year. His mechanic broke down because he was anticipating getting hit. That in turn threw everything else off and the result was him, out of the league in just a few years.

Tom Brady is at the opposite end of the spectrum. No real tools to speak of, no real ability to speak of either. However, he steps in and because of the cheating done by the head coach, he knows what is coming from the defense. That gives him opportunities to make the quick throws and make decisions before the play even starts (not to mention his line knowing whom to block without worrying about stunts, since they know the stunt that's coming). Because of that, he is able to develop without any fear of getting hit too often. That means his mechanics are never put under stress, and gets to play pass and catch all game. Next thing we know, he's the greatest QB since Johnny Unitas supposedly.

So yeah, that's absolutely true about clean pockets and good quarterbacks. Of course, no one's perfect, and Vick, I think, is a halfback that can play QB very well (as opposed to an average to slightly above average QB).

Psycho Ward 86
09-24-2013, 10:42 AM
Conversely with a clean pocket Ben was 19-27 for 295 yards 2 TD's and 0 interceptions.

not impressed

zulater
09-24-2013, 10:57 AM
not impressed

Everyone needs to play better. I get that Ben has been part of the problem. But at the same token those numbers encourage me, because it suggests that things might not be broken beyond repair.

Psycho Ward 86
09-24-2013, 11:04 AM
Everyone needs to play better. I get that Ben has been part of the problem. But at the same token those numbers encourage me, because it suggests that things might not be broken beyond repair.

those numbers are pretty good for an overall game. not for a qb that isnt under any durress. not to be such a pessimist but i dont see how that is encouraging. what can possibly change with the O-line so drastically that it will fix things since they arent "broken beyond repair?" Not really anybody we can bring in to fix this hot mess. We are extremely fortunate just to have Velasco. Our top 3 tackles just need to instantly get better, and i have my doubts about that

HollywoodSteel
09-24-2013, 11:17 AM
Two names spring to mind in this discussion. 1. Rick Mirer. 2. Tom Brady.

Rick Mirer had all the tools to be a top notch NFL QB. However, when his offensive line let him get drilled game after game, he went into a massive slump his sophomore year. His mechanic broke down because he was anticipating getting hit. That in turn threw everything else off and the result was him, out of the league in just a few years.

Tom Brady is at the opposite end of the spectrum. No real tools to speak of, no real ability to speak of either. However, he steps in and because of the cheating done by the head coach, he knows what is coming from the defense. That gives him opportunities to make the quick throws and make decisions before the play even starts (not to mention his line knowing whom to block without worrying about stunts, since they know the stunt that's coming). Because of that, he is able to develop without any fear of getting hit too often. That means his mechanics are never put under stress, and gets to play pass and catch all game. Next thing we know, he's the greatest QB since Johnny Unitas supposedly.

So yeah, that's absolutely true about clean pockets and good quarterbacks. Of course, no one's perfect, and Vick, I think, is a halfback that can play QB very well (as opposed to an average to slightly above average QB).

I love the thinking, but by that logic shouldn't Ben the best ever? He had it pretty good his first couple of years. If only Cowher had been stealing signals for him he'd have Brady-like accuracy and blitz reading abilities today. ;)

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Or you know, you can look at film after the fact and learn a thing or two about defenses.

TheRuneMeister
09-24-2013, 02:05 PM
I think he is a momentum-back. When he is rolling, he is Superman. When things go south quick like they did in that game the swagger and mojo dissapears.

Craic
09-24-2013, 03:19 PM
I love the thinking, but by that logic shouldn't Ben the best ever? He had it pretty good his first couple of years. If only Cowher had been stealing signals for him he'd have Brady-like accuracy and blitz reading abilities today. ;)

- - - Updated - - -

Or you know, you can look at film after the fact and learn a thing or two about defenses.

No, and no. The issue actually, IMO, is the split second decision making and whether you have to worry about being hit or not. Brady did not have to do either because he knew what was coming and could adjust for it before the ball was even snapped. Ben never had that, so it's not the same at all.

And as for accuracy, yes, I actually think you're right. Brady's mechanics never had to suffer. Watch Ben's mechanics, sometimes they're great, sometimes they're horrible. But when you never have to worry about being hit, you never have to shortarm a throw, or get happy feet, or adjust by throwing off the back foot, or a hundred other little issues QBs pick up in their mechanics.

Mojouw
09-24-2013, 05:19 PM
The issue is Ben is not the brightest bulb to every play QB. I don't think he makes very many "adjustments". He is a sandlot gunslinger (oh how a nation turns its lonely eyes to you John Madden and Brett Favre) with all the good and bad that comes with that style of play. Manning (the elder...not Eli the younger) and Brady are much more cerebral sight adjustment QBs.

So the debate about Brady vs. Ben and development is kinda moot. Totally different styles of play.

For the record Brady has a ton of tools. To say otherwise is to just be stubborn.

zulater
09-24-2013, 05:55 PM
The issue is Ben is not the brightest bulb to every play QB. I don't think he makes very many "adjustments". He is a sandlot gunslinger (oh how a nation turns its lonely eyes to you John Madden and Brett Favre) with all the good and bad that comes with that style of play. Manning (the elder...not Eli the younger) and Brady are much more cerebral sight adjustment QBs.

So the debate about Brady vs. Ben and development is kinda moot. Totally different styles of play.

For the record Brady is a tool. To say otherwise is to just be stubborn.









Fixed if for you! :chuckle:

Craic
09-24-2013, 07:06 PM
The issue is Ben is not the brightest bulb to every play QB. I don't think he makes very many "adjustments". He is a sandlot gunslinger (oh how a nation turns its lonely eyes to you John Madden and Brett Favre) with all the good and bad that comes with that style of play. Manning (the elder...not Eli the younger) and Brady are much more cerebral sight adjustment QBs.

So the debate about Brady vs. Ben and development is kinda moot. Totally different styles of play.

For the record Brady has a ton of tools. To say otherwise is to just be stubborn.

Um, me thinks you mist the core of my post.

The issue is not Brady vs. Ben development. Instead, it's whether we can judge a QB by their numbers when not under pressure. I explained with two extreme examples how important it was to see a QB's body of work under pressure, and how that pressure changes the QB. Rick Mirer and Tom Brady were my two examples on opposite sides, the first had all the tools and was very cerebral as well when it came to the game, the second benefited from massive cheating and as a result, learned how to use his tools in a very safe environment.

I would contend that pretty much ANY QB at the NFL level that was a good passer in college could be developed to Brady's skill level in the environment Brady had. What he has going for him outside of that is temperament, but that's a different discussion.

Nevertheless, I don't want to derail this thread into a Brady vs. Ben because that was never the point of my posts.

fansince'76
09-24-2013, 08:33 PM
http://www.primecomputing.com/ to computer passer ratings.

The problem, Zu, is that I could almost be an NFL QB if I was promised a clean pocket. The mark of a NFL QB isn't how he throws with a clean pocket, but how he throws under pressure. Those numbers are expected of a QB that isn't under pressure. Matter of fact, I'm disappointed in his completion percentage being so low when he's not under pressure.

There's a difference between "pressure" and "having to duck and dodge anywhere from 1-3 defenders on any given pass play 0.2 seconds after the ball is snapped"...

Craic
09-24-2013, 09:54 PM
There's a difference between "pressure" and "having to duck and dodge anywhere from 1-3 defenders on any given pass play 0.2 seconds after the ball is snapped"...

True. I just don't know why he doesn't say, "Get away from me kid, you don't have boobs." :chuckle:

Buckinnuts
09-25-2013, 07:19 AM
Ben is not the issue...O LINE...you cant throw from your back...well Ben might..lol....400 yrd game...a deflected interception...isaac redman knocking the last fumble out of Bens hand....need more option plays and better blocking..he got us to 3 superbowls...need to look more in to tomlins judgement of players and coaching picks...

HollywoodSteel
09-25-2013, 01:12 PM
No, and no. The issue actually, IMO, is the split second decision making and whether you have to worry about being hit or not. Brady did not have to do either because he knew what was coming and could adjust for it before the ball was even snapped. Ben never had that, so it's not the same at all.

And as for accuracy, yes, I actually think you're right. Brady's mechanics never had to suffer. Watch Ben's mechanics, sometimes they're great, sometimes they're horrible. But when you never have to worry about being hit, you never have to shortarm a throw, or get happy feet, or adjust by throwing off the back foot, or a hundred other little issues QBs pick up in their mechanics.

I'm not sure if you're being totally serious here. Of course there is truth to the notion that the right situation for a player coming into the league can play a pretty big role in that player's success, but I don't think you believe that the only reason Tom Brady is so good today is because of signal stealing. Ben had a solid line his first couple of years and I'm sure that was nice, but if you're saying that had he been getting the defensive calls as well he would have Tom Brady-like accuracy and mechanics... there's just no way you really believe that. And before you start to dig yourself deeper into that theory, in his magical 2001 season Tom Brady was sacked 41 times. :)

Here's the thing, it's fun to hate on Brady. We all do it. He's a pretty boy on a team that we hate, with a coach that is super easy to hate and we love to say stuff like "he would suck behind a line like ours..." but it's simply not true. Tom Brady is as good as he is because he decided to be. I know that's an oversimplification, but it's really what separates him and Manning from the pack. Please don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of Ben and I marvel at what he can and has done. He does things at times that seem super human and I believe the reason for that, and what makes him elite, is the attribute he shares with both Brady and Manning: he has that competitive fire in his belly that just can't be learned. You either have it or you don't. And I'm not talking about the normal competitive nature that pretty much all pro athletes have. This is something different. This is a hatred of losing even more than a love of winning. It's a fire that's hard to quantify exactly, and it's that fire, coupled with Ben's physical gifts, that has produced the magical moments we've seen from him.

But here is where Brady and Manning leave Ben behind: they take that fire beyond the playing field and into really, really hard work. Constant, repetitive, grinding work. The part that isn't as fun as throwing the Super Bowl winning pass that every QB dreams about. As much as I love to hate on Brady, he is worthy of so much respect because he had to work even harder at it. He doesn't have Ben's natural gifts. And although Manning is big and pretty strong he doesn't have those natural gifts either. I was listening to the Sirius NFL channel this morning and they were talking about how it appears that somehow Manning's arm strength is better than ever, but they explained why that isn't quite true. You know how he spent the offseason? Working on his leg strength and footwork. Now, you're talking about a guy who already has great footwork, but that isn't good enough for Manning. It will never be good enough. He went to go work with his old QB coach from college and just went totally back to the tiniest of fundamentals... and practiced it over, and over, and over.... You see what I'm getting it? That's who he is and, like it or not, that's who Brady is. If Ben had that kind of work ethic he could possibly be talked about as one of the best ever just like those guys. That's why I'm critical of him. Yes, we know that his line sucks and we can talk about that forever, but right now I'm talking about how good Ben is compared to how good he could be. We all know he is capable of winning a Super Bowl with a shitty O-line... when he's on. If he worked as hard as those other guys I think he'd have at least one more ring and possibly several more in his future.

zulater
09-25-2013, 03:01 PM
Ben may not have the work ethic of Manning or even Brady, not many people do in any walk of life. But I don't think he's lazy or below average in work ethic or game preparation. Maybe he doesn't process information at quite elite level, but he's no one's dope either.

Right now Ben's problem's mostly stem from lack of surrounding talent in my opinion. The same thing that's got Eli in a funk at the moment.

We just need to stabilize the line and develop something resembling a running game and good Ben will re-emerge. And yes I know he's sailing some passes, but most came as a result of pressure or anticipation thereof. In case you haven't noticed the Steelers haven't been controlling the "A Gap", this combined with shitty OT play , and no qb in the league plays very good when this combination of events takes place. I've seen Peyton Manning look like crap in similar circumstances.

I've watched much of the past two games on NFL rewind again. And it's pretty simple, Ben has happy feet and is sailing passes because he's uncomfortable behind the line. Give him a running game and control the "A gap consistently and he'll deal with Adams and Gilbert's ( not so) occasional lapses, if he has a pocket to step up into.

And yes I know Ben's missed some passes when his protection has been adequate, but not as many as you think, and anticipation of contact, even when none is coming is a direct result of lack of confidence in the middle of the line.

By the way, as far as goats last week that no one's mentioned. Ramon Foster might have been the chief culprit last week. On the first fumble he has his head so far up his ass I'm surprised they didn't need to get the jaws of life to remove it. He got Ben sacked, let in a guy untouched to cause a fumble, and let Felix Jones be blowed up in the backfield, all before halftime. :frusty:

HollywoodSteel
09-25-2013, 04:02 PM
Ben may not have the work ethic of Manning or even Brady, not many people do in any walk of life. But I don't think he's lazy or below average in work ethic or game preparation. Maybe he doesn't process information at quite elite level, but he's no one's dope either.

Right now Ben's problem's mostly stem from lack of surrounding talent in my opinion. The same thing that's got Eli in a funk at the moment.

We just need to stabilize the line and develop something resembling a running game and good Ben will re-emerge. And yes I know he's sailing some passes, but most came as a result of pressure or anticipation thereof. In case you haven't noticed the Steelers haven't been controlling the "A Gap", this combined with shitty OT play , and no qb in the league plays very good when this combination of events takes place. I've seen Peyton Manning look like crap in similar circumstances.

I've watched much of the past two games on NFL rewind again. And it's pretty simple, Ben has happy feet and is sailing passes because he's uncomfortable behind the line. Give him a running game and control the "A gap consistently and he'll deal with Adams and Gilbert's ( not so) occasional lapses, if he has a pocket to step up into.

And yes I know Ben's missed some passes when his protection has been adequate, but not as many as you think, and anticipation of contact, even when none is coming is a direct result of lack of confidence in the middle of the line.

By the way, as far as goats last week that no one's mentioned. Ramon Foster might have been the chief culprit last week. On the first fumble he has his head so far up his ass I'm surprised they didn't need to get the jaws of life to remove it. He got Ben sacked, let in a guy untouched to cause a fumble, and let Felix Jones be blowed up in the backfield, all before halftime. :frusty:

I don't disagree with a word of what you wrote, Zu. All of those things are our biggest problems. When I focus on Ben I'm by no means letting anyone else off the hook (especially the coaches). But to me there's a difference when Manning or Brady says that someone isn't working hard enough. I'll use Ben's own example with Heath. He knows for sure that Heath is doing everything humanly possible to get back on the field but he can't give Bell the same benefit of the doubt. Now, maybe Ben is doing everything humanly possible to get better, (I know he'll never have the mind of Peyton Manning, but the work ethic is something you can choose to have) but at this point I can't give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe after the Vikings game I'll be singing a different tune.

HollywoodSteel
09-25-2013, 04:15 PM
I guess what I really want to hear from Ben as a follow to that kind of statement is something like this:

"Remember when I was making those Rosetta Stone comments about the new playbook? Well, I played a few games of shuffleboard and darts when I could have been mastering it, and I will never show a poor example like that again. I will demand nothing of others that I don't demand tenfold of myself, and anyone I see working harder than me this week, staying later to watch film, or outpracticing me can have my game check."

Craic
09-25-2013, 05:01 PM
I'm not sure if you're being totally serious here. Of course there is truth to the notion that the right situation for a player coming into the league can play a pretty big role in that player's success, but I don't think you believe that the only reason Tom Brady is so good today is because of signal stealing. Ben had a solid line his first couple of years and I'm sure that was nice, but if you're saying that had he been getting the defensive calls as well he would have Tom Brady-like accuracy and mechanics... there's just no way you really believe that. And before you start to dig yourself deeper into that theory, in his magical 2001 season Tom Brady was sacked 41 times. :)

Yes, I actually was being serious. The sacks on Brady are all well and good, but the key is to look at what happens in the sophomore season. In my original comparison, I was pointing at Mirer as the perfect example of a guy that had the goods but couldn't make it in the NFL because the learn curve was too much. That issue, and his bad mechanics started in his second season. Now, take a look at Brady's sacks. They drop by 25%. They were tied for first place that season and the next season went 14-2, and never looked back from there until they were busted for cheating. Yes, I am very serious about it.


Here's the thing, it's fun to hate on Brady. We all do it. He's a pretty boy on a team that we hate, with a coach that is super easy to hate and we love to say stuff like "he would suck behind a line like ours..." but it's simply not true. Tom Brady is as good as he is because he decided to be. I know that's an oversimplification, but it's really what separates him and Manning from the pack. Please don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of Ben and I marvel at what he can and has done. He does things at times that seem super human and I believe the reason for that, and what makes him elite, is the attribute he shares with both Brady and Manning: he has that competitive fire in his belly that just can't be learned. You either have it or you don't. And I'm not talking about the normal competitive nature that pretty much all pro athletes have. This is something different. This is a hatred of losing even more than a love of winning. It's a fire that's hard to quantify exactly, and it's that fire, coupled with Ben's physical gifts, that has produced the magical moments we've seen from him.

See, the difference with me however, is that I could care less about him being on the Pats, except for what happened. I have all types of respect for Manning, even though he's hated around here. I used to have a whole lot of respect for Brady and his skills as well. The problem with what you wrote above, is that Manning is cheated out of being a sole name in a category that he deserves because every year, year in and year out, he had to work and adjust and come in blind, then figure out teams' defensive packages. Moreover, he had to make sure whatever pressure he was getting didn't screw with his mechanics and not worry about what might or might not happen. He also had to endure the pressure of game-ending drives without the help of knowing who might be open, or if the hot-route would be covered, etc. On a young QB, that's a back-breaker. Manning was able to overcome all that and more. He deserves to be mentioned up there with the greats.

Brady? We'll never know, and that's the entire point. He did NOT have the same development through the first five years (the crucial period) of his career. He was aided by cheating and a severe flattening out of his learning curve in ways that no other QB had to deal with. It is my firm belief that if Rick Mirer or any other other washout QBs that had all the physical tools and good mental ability, had the chance Brady had, they would be spoken of in the same breath as Either Brady or Manning, or at least in the same breath as the next level down.

Does that negate Brady's ability? No. Absolutely not. IMO, it negates his viability for any kind of discussion concerning great QBs. For that, he should be very torqued off at Belichick.


But here is where Brady and Manning leave Ben behind: they take that fire beyond the playing field and into really, really hard work. Constant, repetitive, grinding work. The part that isn't as fun as throwing the Super Bowl winning pass that every QB dreams about. As much as I love to hate on Brady, he is worthy of so much respect because he had to work even harder at it. He doesn't have Ben's natural gifts. And although Manning is big and pretty strong he doesn't have those natural gifts either. I was listening to the Sirius NFL channel this morning and they were talking about how it appears that somehow Manning's arm strength is better than ever, but they explained why that isn't quite true. You know how he spent the offseason? Working on his leg strength and footwork. Now, you're talking about a guy who already has great footwork, but that isn't good enough for Manning. It will never be good enough. He went to go work with his old QB coach from college and just went totally back to the tiniest of fundamentals... and practiced it over, and over, and over.... You see what I'm getting it? That's who he is and, like it or not, that's who Brady is. If Ben had that kind of work ethic he could possibly be talked about as one of the best ever just like those guys. That's why I'm critical of him. Yes, we know that his line sucks and we can talk about that forever, but right now I'm talking about how good Ben is compared to how good he could be. We all know he is capable of winning a Super Bowl with a shitty O-line... when he's on. If he worked as hard as those other guys I think he'd have at least one more ring and possibly several more in his future.

I'm not even going to answer that, because I really don't care and wasn't making any kind of comparison. Once again, my entire point with bring up Brady and Mirer was that they were two QBs of equal talent and equal ability that went in vastly different directions because they had vastly different experiences in their developing years.

- - - Updated - - -




I've watched much of the past two games on NFL rewind again. And it's pretty simple, Ben has happy feet and is sailing passes because he's uncomfortable behind the line. Give him a running game and control the "A gap consistently and he'll deal with Adams and Gilbert's ( not so) occasional lapses, if he has a pocket to step up into.


And yet, he is the only one that can control that. It's his bad fundamentals. He needs to go back to quick reads and quick throws like he was doing last year in the beginning. If Ben knows his line is bad, then he is playing a foolish game holding on to the ball for 3 and 4 seconds, and I blame him for doing so and getting stripped and sack so often. Take the three step drop, plant, and throw. Period. Even if it is throwing the ball out of bounds.

In the same way I expect the RBs to chang their game if the Oline is having a bad season, so I expect Ben to change his.

zulater
09-25-2013, 05:52 PM
Yes, I actually was being serious. The sacks on Brady are all well and good, but the key is to look at what happens in the sophomore season. In my original comparison, I was pointing at Mirer as the perfect example of a guy that had the goods but couldn't make it in the NFL because the learn curve was too much. That issue, and his bad mechanics started in his second season. Now, take a look at Brady's sacks. They drop by 25%. They were tied for first place that season and the next season went 14-2, and never looked back from there until they were busted for cheating. Yes, I am very serious about it.



See, the difference with me however, is that I could care less about him being on the Pats, except for what happened. I have all types of respect for Manning, even though he's hated around here. I used to have a whole lot of respect for Brady and his skills as well. The problem with what you wrote above, is that Manning is cheated out of being a sole name in a category that he deserves because every year, year in and year out, he had to work and adjust and come in blind, then figure out teams' defensive packages. Moreover, he had to make sure whatever pressure he was getting didn't screw with his mechanics and not worry about what might or might not happen. He also had to endure the pressure of game-ending drives without the help of knowing who might be open, or if the hot-route would be covered, etc. On a young QB, that's a back-breaker. Manning was able to overcome all that and more. He deserves to be mentioned up there with the greats.

Brady? We'll never know, and that's the entire point. He did NOT have the same development through the first five years (the crucial period) of his career. He was aided by cheating and a severe flattening out of his learning curve in ways that no other QB had to deal with. It is my firm belief that if Rick Mirer or any other other washout QBs that had all the physical tools and good mental ability, had the chance Brady had, they would be spoken of in the same breath as Either Brady or Manning, or at least in the same breath as the next level down.

Does that negate Brady's ability? No. Absolutely not. IMO, it negates his viability for any kind of discussion concerning great QBs. For that, he should be very torqued off at Belichick.



I'm not even going to answer that, because I really don't care and wasn't making any kind of comparison. Once again, my entire point with bring up Brady and Mirer was that they were two QBs of equal talent and equal ability that went in vastly different directions because they had vastly different experiences in their developing years.

- - - Updated - - -



And yet, he is the only one that can control that. It's his bad fundamentals. He needs to go back to quick reads and quick throws like he was doing last year in the beginning. If Ben knows his line is bad, then he is playing a foolish game holding on to the ball for 3 and 4 seconds, and I blame him for doing so and getting stripped and sack so often. Take the three step drop, plant, and throw. Period. Even if it is throwing the ball out of bounds.

In the same way I expect the RBs to chang their game if the Oline is having a bad season, so I expect Ben to change his.

You do realize that Ben was being pressured in under 3 seconds on most of those pressures? And a few times when they went with quick patterns the net result was no gain, and even a loss of yards.

The more I watch the less I find Ben to blame. Right now they don't have enough offensive rhythm to offset the blitzes that are being thrown at them. And also the inability to run makes it so that the defense can defend the slants and passes out in the flat while throwing in extra blitzers on the pass rush.

I get that the qb has responsibility in recognizing where the blitz is coming from, but when the line is completely flummoxed on the most simple delayed blitz virtually every single time , that's on the guy's doing the blocking and those that are supposed to be teaching them.

In all honesty I was as down on Ben as anyone at the end of the game against the Bears. But the more I watch the game play by play, watching the same play over and over to see where things went wrong, the more convinced I am that Ben isn't the problem. We just need to get the line on the same page, and get the running game going. Then if Ben's still healthy he and the receivers should be fine.

HollywoodSteel
09-25-2013, 06:07 PM
You do realize that Ben was being pressured in under 3 seconds on most of those pressures? And a few times when they went with quick patterns the net result was no gain, and even a loss of yards.

The more I watch the less I find Ben to blame. Right now they don't have enough offensive rhythm to offset the blitzes that are being thrown at them. And also the inability to run makes it so that the defense can defend the slants and passes out in the flat while throwing in extra blitzers on the pass rush.

I get that the qb has responsibility in recognizing where the blitz is coming from, but when the line is completely flummoxed on the most simple delayed blitz virtually every single time , that's on the guy's doing the blocking and those that are supposed to be teaching them.

In all honesty I was as down on Ben as anyone at the end of the game against the Bears. But the more I watch the game play by play, watching the same play over and over to see where things went wrong, the more convinced I am that Ben isn't the problem. We just need to get the line on the same page, and get the running game going. Then if Ben's still healthy he and the receivers should be fine.

I always respect your take on things, Zu. Maybe I'm being too hard on Ben as well. I'll try to take another look at the game when I get a chance and see if I see what you're seeing. :drink:

HollywoodSteel
09-25-2013, 06:20 PM
craic, you are the poster formerly known as Preacher, right? The guy who tries to keep people from flying too far overboard about the pussification of the NFL and Adolph Goodell's witch hunts? I would think you'd be the guy saying lets not make too much out the whole Spy Gate thing. But you think that the difference between Rick Mirer and Tom Brady was some pre-game videotaping? That it was like Barry Bonds and steroids or something?

And on the Manning thing, I've never noticed any hate for him. In mind he's probably the greatest QB of all time and if the Steelers aren't going to the Super Bowl I'll be rooting for him to get another ring. No one deserves it more than him.

HollywoodSteel
09-25-2013, 07:56 PM
I always respect your take on things, Zu. Maybe I'm being too hard on Ben as well. I'll try to take another look at the game when I get a chance and see if I see what you're seeing. :drink:

Okay, Zu. I just watched the first three possessions by the Steelers and so far I couldn't have been more right about Ben. He dug us a stupid hole when we should have been well ahead.

First possession:

Ben's fumble is on a blitz by D.J. Williams. Let's give Ben the benefit of the doubt and assume that there's no way he should have recognized it pre-snap and changed the protection. Foster pulls on a play action play and he and Jones end up blocking the same guy leaving Williams unblocked. Ben turns around in time to see Williams, and instead of protecting the ball in any way, shape, or form Ben runs forward with the ball dangling by his hip. The ball squirts out of Ben's hand before he's even touched. I repeat, no one stripped the ball. We actually might have been able to run past Williams for a decent gain or even thrown the ball since Williams momentum was actually kind of taking him past Ben. So sure, either Foster or Jones maybe should have reacted to the blitz differently but at worst it should have been a sack. But Ben's carelessness gives the Bears the Ball in the red zone. That's 7 points given up that I'm putting on Ben's shoulders.

Second possession:

The first play Ben has a quick drop back, there is pressure but it's clearly designed to be a very quick plant and throw play, and Ben has the time to do it. But his footwork is awful and not only does he fail to see a wide open Will Johnson running down the sidelines, he (thankfully) overthrows Heath who has three Bears surrounding him. A better throw might have easily been picked off. If he throws to Johnson instead of locking in on Heath it's a big gain (if he had just planted and thrown rather than do a little stutter step thingy).

Third down: Ben has plenty of time to plant and throw (O-line does their job perfectly) to a wide open Sanders. I mean WIDE open with a good step on the defender and no one between him and the end zone. !00% sure TD with a good throw and Ben overthrows him. To his credit, Sanders lays out for it but it's no use. So instead of 7 for us it's a 3 and out giving the Bears good field position (and defense barely had a chance to rest) which leads to a Bears TD. You could call say that this could be 14 point swing possession.

Third Possession:

Ben barely completes an easy screen to Johnson who has to stop and come back to make a fingertip catch. 5 yard gain that probably would have been a first down with a better throw.

2nd and 5 - D.J. Williams blitzes again (who can say if Ben should have read anything pre-snap again) and comes through untouched on Ben's left side. Ben's eyes never leave the right side of the field. Had he glanced left a little quicker he would have seen wide open David Johnson guy for a quick screen. Actually Will Johnson was open too and looking back for the ball, so throwing to either Johnson would have resulted in a nice gain. It's the kind of play where Brady or Manning welcome a blitz. But in our case it's a sack where Ben is hit hard, setting up a third and long.

3rd and 14 - line does a nice job. Ben has forever and does a great pump fake and the Bears defenders bite big time leaving A.B. wide open running down the sideline. Ben does complete the pass for a big gain but it should have been an easy TD if he just hits Brown in stride, or at the very least doesn't make him stop completely to catch the ball allowing the defender plenty of time to make the tackle. On paper it just looks like a big gain but it's a bad pass that cost us a TD. (But again, Ben does get credit for a great pump fake, but the line should also get credit for giving him time to do whatever he wants)

9 yard first down run followed by awful 2nd down bubble screen that loses 2 yards.

3rd down - easiest pass play in the world to a streaking A.B. across the middle... and Ben somehow misses him. Brown manages to get one hand on it but can't hall it in. It would have been a sure first down inside the 5, if not a TD. Instead we settle for a FG and it's 17 - 3 Bears. We should have been killing them at this point, so anything good Ben does from here should be tempered by the fact that we should never have been in this position.

zulater
09-25-2013, 08:09 PM
Go watch Peyton Manning in the playoff game against the Steelers back in the day and see how accurate he was when he was getting pressured. Go watch Brady in a couple of those playoff games against the Ravens.

It's real simple, if a qb doesn't have confidence that the A gap isn't secure he'll rush a lot of his throws and miss reads he generally doesn't miss.

Fix the middle of the line so they know who's supposed to do what and when and Ben's passing mechanics wont be an issue anymore.

And besides pros don't throw every pass on the money. Sometimes you miss by a little and your receiver saves you. See it every week. Ask Anquan Boldin if you wont take my word for it. Hell watch a Falcon game and tell me how many times Gonzalez, White and Jones save Matt Ryan's ass.

You don't get perfect in this league often. Ben isn't that far off. Stabilize the line a little, run the ball a little better and Ben wont be a problem.

HollywoodSteel
09-25-2013, 11:44 PM
Go watch Peyton Manning in the playoff game against the Steelers back in the day and see how accurate he was when he was getting pressured. Go watch Brady in a couple of those playoff games against the Ravens.

It's real simple, if a qb doesn't have confidence that the A gap isn't secure he'll rush a lot of his throws and miss reads he generally doesn't miss.

Fix the middle of the line so they know who's supposed to do what and when and Ben's passing mechanics wont be an issue anymore.

And besides pros don't throw every pass on the money. Sometimes you miss by a little and your receiver saves you. See it every week. Ask Anquan Boldin if you wont take my word for it. Hell watch a Falcon game and tell me how many times Gonzalez, White and Jones save Matt Ryan's ass.

You don't get perfect in this league often. Ben isn't that far off. Stabilize the line a little, run the ball a little better and Ben wont be a problem.

Zu, go back and read what I wrote. He wasn't getting crazy pressure on every play. But even if he misses on the couple of plays where he didn't get to take more than three seconds, he still missed on golden opportunities when he had all the time in the world. Even on the one big completion to Brown on the third possession, that looks good on the stat sheet, it should have easily been a TD if not for an inaccurate pass. And I'm not asking him to thread the needle here. He had wide open receivers on the second and third drives with ZERO pressure and he just missed. That combined with dropping the ball on the opening drive without even being touched... I'm just saying, maybe we can agree that there's just a wee bit of room for improvement on Ben's part.

Seven
09-25-2013, 11:57 PM
Zu, go back and read what I wrote. He wasn't getting crazy pressure on every play. But even if he misses on the couple of plays where he didn't get to take more than three seconds, he still missed on golden opportunities when he had all the time in the world. Even on the one big completion to Brown on the third possession, that looks good on the stat sheet, it should have easily been a TD if not for an inaccurate pass. And I'm not asking him to thread the needle here. He had wide open receivers on the second and third drives with ZERO pressure and he just missed. That combined with dropping the ball on the opening drive without even being touched... I'm just saying, maybe we can agree that there's just a wee bit of room for improvement on Ben's part.

It seemed to me that Ben either had no time or plenty of time, there wasn't much in between. When he was hit it was often right off the snap. Under those circumstances, I think it's hard to expect much from your quarterback. I'd rather have a defense around Ben every play than on top of him sometimes and nowhere near him the next. I think he was shocked when he had time to throw and wasn't prepared for it. Half of his time in the pocket he was probably ready to elude a free running defender that never came. I have no issue with the way Ben is playing outside of the fumbles. The first interception was Cotchery's fault and the last was regrettable but made in desperation.

Craic
09-26-2013, 12:23 AM
You do realize that Ben was being pressured in under 3 seconds on most of those pressures? And a few times when they went with quick patterns the net result was no gain, and even a loss of yards.

The more I watch the less I find Ben to blame. Right now they don't have enough offensive rhythm to offset the blitzes that are being thrown at them. And also the inability to run makes it so that the defense can defend the slants and passes out in the flat while throwing in extra blitzers on the pass rush.

I get that the qb has responsibility in recognizing where the blitz is coming from, but when the line is completely flummoxed on the most simple delayed blitz virtually every single time , that's on the guy's doing the blocking and those that are supposed to be teaching them.

In all honesty I was as down on Ben as anyone at the end of the game against the Bears. But the more I watch the game play by play, watching the same play over and over to see where things went wrong, the more convinced I am that Ben isn't the problem. We just need to get the line on the same page, and get the running game going. Then if Ben's still healthy he and the receivers should be fine.

Tried responding to this post in other ways . . . but every time it ends up sounding arrogant, and that's not at all what I was going for. So I'll just say the above, while I may disagree, is a post I can definitely respect (and that does not mean there are posts I can disrespect, rather, I just found it very solid).

zulater
09-26-2013, 05:23 AM
Zu, go back and read what I wrote. He wasn't getting crazy pressure on every play. But even if he misses on the couple of plays where he didn't get to take more than three seconds, he still missed on golden opportunities when he had all the time in the world. Even on the one big completion to Brown on the third possession, that looks good on the stat sheet, it should have easily been a TD if not for an inaccurate pass. And I'm not asking him to thread the needle here. He had wide open receivers on the second and third drives with ZERO pressure and he just missed. That combined with dropping the ball on the opening drive without even being touched... I'm just saying, maybe we can agree that there's just a wee bit of room for improvement on Ben's part.

Ben wasn't touched on the first fumble? Maybe, but the guy was on him as soon as he turned around,( off play action, so his backed was turned to the line) and he was in the process of trying to get the ball to a throwing point, so maybe that explains it? Tell you what, put a ball in your hand, turn your back to a 265 pound guy who you expect to be 3 yards or more away from you, but instead when you turn he's right on top of you, good chance you might drop the ball just from surprise even if you weren't in the process of transitioning the ball to your shoulder at the time.

As far as the missed pass to AB on 3rd and 4, I'm sure Brown would tell you that's a catch he has made and can make. And Ben didn't have a clean pocket on that play either as I remember. He did have to rush his throw just enough to affect the play.

And I'm not saying Ben doesn't need to improve, but the thought that he's the weakest link of the offense, that most of the problems are symptomatic of him is absurd, and seems to be getting propagated quite frequently by Steeler fans lately.

zulater
09-26-2013, 05:30 AM
By the way, that was a great pass by Ben to AB on the 45 yard completion! Just watched it again and the insinuation that Ben missed the pass and the play should have gone for a TD with a well thrown ball is absurd!

Just watched the 3rd and 4 play again, and Foster's guy is coming in on Ben when he delivers the ball, so yes it was a pass that Ben could have made better, but an NFL receiver can catch that ball. So I put the blame 3 ways for that pass failing, 1/3 each to Foster, Ben, and Antonio.

steeldawg
09-26-2013, 05:46 AM
By the way, that was a great pass by Ben to AB on the 45 yard completion! Just watched it again and the insinuation that Ben missed the pass and the play should have gone for a TD with a well thrown ball is absurd!

Just watched the 3rd and 4 play again, and Foster's guy is coming in on Ben when he delivers the ball, so yes it was a pass that Ben could have made better, but an NFL receiver can catch that ball. So I put the blame 3 ways for that pass failing, 1/3 each to Foster, Ben, and Antonio.

Ya that pass was money! First it was a great job it was a great job by ben moving the deep safety inside then he threw the ball before brown even broke up field, right on the money just before the safety could recover. It was a great job knowing the defense and throwing his receiver open, something ben is very good at but we haven't seen a lot since we changed to the quick pass offense. Going back and saying well he should of thrown this ball better or that ball better can be done in any game with any qb. I said it before ben is the same guy he's always been, the problem is the rest of our offense is not good so those great plays and risky throws he used to make few times a game he is now having to do on every drive to make up for our deficiencies.

Steeldude
09-26-2013, 06:23 AM
By the way, that was a great pass by Ben to AB on the 45 yard completion! Just watched it again and the insinuation that Ben missed the pass and the play should have gone for a TD with a well thrown ball is absurd!

Just watched the 3rd and 4 play again, and Foster's guy is coming in on Ben when he delivers the ball, so yes it was a pass that Ben could have made better, but an NFL receiver can catch that ball. So I put the blame 3 ways for that pass failing, 1/3 each to Foster, Ben, and Antonio.


I am a firm believe in "If it hits your hands you should catch it" : )

Sanders needs to start making catches. The passes he was thrown were not difficult to make.

86WARD
09-26-2013, 01:03 PM
My favorite this week has been "He's too reckless with the football."

Craic
09-26-2013, 01:10 PM
I am a firm believe in "If it hits your hands you should catch it" : )

Sanders needs to start making catches. The passes he was thrown were not difficult to make.

I've heard that before... but I don't think blaming Sanders for not catching a ball that he was completely laid out in the air for, and it hits the fingertips of his outstretched hands is fair. On a side note, a receiver can only make so many adjustments on a poorly thrown ball. They may have made enough to get their hands on the ball, but because they had to do everything just to touch the ball, they're unable to bring it in. So I don't buy the "if you can touch it, you can catch it" mentality. (Not your words, a football coach back in sixth grade always used to say that).

GoSlash27
09-27-2013, 06:16 AM
Did anybody ever hear about what happened to Ben's throwing hand in the first half? When he got up, it was bleeding.
Nobody mentioned it after the game, and it seems kind of important. What happened and is he good to go?

silver & black
09-27-2013, 08:11 AM
What's up with Ben?

Everything! Send him to Oakland! :wink02:

tube517
09-27-2013, 09:34 AM
Did anybody ever hear about what happened to Ben's throwing hand in the first half? When he got up, it was bleeding.
Nobody mentioned it after the game, and it seems kind of important. What happened and is he good to go?

Ben's description: Shattered in 6 different places. Wrist also broken. Cut required 1000 stitches. Will play through it

Steelers team doctor: Angry Birds bandaid for the cut.

:chuckle:

HollywoodSteel
09-27-2013, 01:14 PM
Ben wasn't touched on the first fumble? Maybe, but the guy was on him as soon as he turned around,( off play action, so his backed was turned to the line) and he was in the process of trying to get the ball to a throwing point, so maybe that explains it? Tell you what, put a ball in your hand, turn your back to a 265 pound guy who you expect to be 3 yards or more away from you, but instead when you turn he's right on top of you, good chance you might drop the ball just from surprise even if you weren't in the process of transitioning the ball to your shoulder at the time.

As far as the missed pass to AB on 3rd and 4, I'm sure Brown would tell you that's a catch he has made and can make. And Ben didn't have a clean pocket on that play either as I remember. He did have to rush his throw just enough to affect the play.



And I'm not saying Ben doesn't need to improve, but the thought that he's the weakest link of the offense, that most of the problems are symptomatic of him is absurd, and seems to be getting propagated quite frequently by Steeler fans lately.

Look, saying anything like "put a ball in your hand and you try to..." doesn't really prove much of a point. If I were in Ben's position I'm sure I would fail to do anything good on that play. But that same logic can be applied to Ramon Foster. You get your blocking assignment and then see a blitzing D.J. Williams and see if you can stop him. The point is, Ben is Ben and he was not scared or startled into dropping the ball. He's been in that situation many times before. He did indeed have a moment to decide how to react. For example, Tom Brady in that moment would have had time to curl up around the ball and just take the sack, but I'm not saying that's what I expect or want from Ben. He just tried to run forward and make a play before securing the ball a little better and it slipped out of his hand. It happens. (And had he not dropped the ball it wouldn't have surprised me if he had actually managed to sneak by Wiliams on that play) I'm sure he'll look at the film and agree with me that he was at fault to a certain extent, and next time he might bring the ball in a little more or put his other hand on it before running forward. I have seen him do that even while trying to extend a play.

And like I said, I don't for a second think Ben is the weak link here. He's just the only one I have confidence in that can actually improve because I know how good he can be. That's why I don't even bother to scrutinize the line and their coaching too much (other than to state the obvious that they suck) because I'm not going to put much hope into them actually getting better. What is frustrating, yet gives me hope at the same time, is that this was probably a game we could have won despite all of our other problems if Ben hadn't made like 5 or 6 mistakes. I know he's not going to be perfect, but I do hold him to the standard that I believe he's capable of maintaining.

st33lersguy
09-29-2013, 04:31 PM
Ben's biggest problem is that he is getting absolutely no help. Hard to win when you have no pass protection and your defense can't stop anyone