Week 3: Who was the goat of the game?

[steelreserve]

Much as he had his moments, I have to go with Ben. Lots of yardage, a couple TDs, but four turnovers, one of them a pick-six, another setting up an easy score. Our offense is just killing us. I would be pissed if I was on the defense on this team. Even if they pitched a shutout, it might not matter.

[Lambert_Loonie]

I'm on board with Zu now.

Trade Ben.

[zulater]

Much as he had his moments, I have to go with Ben. Lots of yardage, a couple TDs, but four turnovers, one of them a pick-six, another setting up an easy score. Our offense is just killing us. I would be pissed if I was on the defense on this team. Even if they pitched a shutout, it might not matter.


Yeah Ben was a goat today for the turnovers. But those were as much on the offensive line than Ben. Actually all but one were on the o-line. But regardless our defense sucked ass tonight. The last fumble meant nothing. The game was lost when the defense let Cutler drive the length of the field and score a touchdown when all the momentum was on our side. Fuck this defense! Get off the field when it matters! Better yet force a turnover!

The defense was every bit as responsible as the offense for this loss. As were the coaches.

And why the fuck is Isaac Redman still on this team?

[Shoes]

Tomlin will be reading from last weeks post game notes.

[zulater]

27-23 game 9 minutes left, and our defense allows the Bears to drive 74 yards in nine plays using nearly 5 minutes of clock, converting 3rd and 10, 3rd and 12, and 3rd and 5 on the way to a touchdown and 11 point lead. We had the momentum! All we needed was a stop! Even a field goal and it's still a one score game! So fuck the defense tonight! They can hang their head in shame along with the offense.

Not one forced turnover in 3 games! No other team can claim that distinction! The defense sucks as bad as everyone else.

[zulater]

And no Ben wasn't close to being the dickhead of the game. He was the reason the game actually became a game again for a little while. Isaac Redman was the dickhead of the game. If he's a Steeler after tomorrow a coach should be fired in his place.

[Psycho Ward 86]

the better question is who wasnt the dickhead of the game?

O-line first and foremost. Gilbert got benched with good fucking reason. Adams...i feel for you bro, Peppers is no easy match but you were a massive liability once again. we are looking luckier and luckier to have picked up Velasco though.

Felix fucking Jones. Seriously? Running way better than anyone has for us this season and you bring your fumblitis over here from Dallas too?

I dont know how much we can get at Ben. He did a lot of things to keep us in the game, but 4 turnovers just off of a veteran QB? That should never be happening, no matter how bad the surrounding cast is playing.

We can talk all day about how we cant expect the defense to be keeping points off the board if we turn the ball over like this but we can. Because they havent gotten ANY turnovers, like Zu was saying. This disturbing trend over the past 3 years of getting hardly any turnovers and pass rush has to stop.

At least Brown finally made that $43 million dollar deal look good. Great combatative ball skills for his 1st TD against a pro-bowler in Tim Jennings, and then one of the catches of the year on the other one. Sensational game for him tonight, with hardly any of the yardage coming in garbage time. I just wish so many of these plays didnt have to happen with Ben playing school-yard ball because that hasnt been working like it use to these past 3 games.

And one more goat. Emmanuel Sanders. You do know you're a starter right? And not a #3 receiver anymore? Fuck you. Step your game up.

/Rantoff

[blackngldblood]

This team stinks. Some sort of shake up has to happen somewhere, or nothing will change. I'm not calling for anyone's head just yet. The reason being is I don't feel like I'm in any position to do such a thing, but something somewhere HAS GOT TO CHANGE in the game planning and preparations, or this team will seriously be picking in the top five next spring. Oh yeah, who's the asshole of the game? Whatever dipshit keeps telling everyone on this team that everythings gonna be alright, just stick to the script. I guess that's gotta be Tomlin, no?

[zulater]

the better question is who wasnt the dickhead of the game?

O-line first and foremost. Gilbert got benched with good fucking reason. Adams...i feel for you bro, Peppers is no easy match but you were a massive liability once again. we are looking luckier and luckier to have picked up Velasco though.

Felix fucking Jones. Seriously? Running way better than anyone has for us this season and you bring your fumblitis over here from Dallas too?

I dont know how much we can get at Ben. He did a lot of things to keep us in the game, but 4 turnovers just off of a veteran QB? That should never be happening, no matter how bad the surrounding cast is playing.

We can talk all day about how we cant expect the defense to be keeping points off the board if we turn the ball over like this but we can. Because they havent gotten ANY turnovers, like Zu was saying. This disturbing trend over the past 3 years of getting hardly any turnovers and pass rush has to stop.

At least Brown finally made that $43 million dollar deal look good. Great combatative ball skills for his 1st TD against a pro-bowler in Tim Jennings, and then one of the catches of the year on the other one. Sensational game for him tonight, with hardly any of the yardage coming in garbage time. I just wish so many of these plays didnt have to happen with Ben playing school-yard ball because that hasnt been working like it use to these past 3 games.

And one more goat. Emmanuel Sanders. You do know you're a starter right? And not a #3 receiver anymore? Fuck you. Step your game up.

/Rantoff

That needed to be said. Thank you!

[steelreserve]

I have the feeling I missed something with Redman tonight while I had my back turned or while I was speeding through the first half trying to catch up on DVR. People are extra pissed. Is it just that he didn't do squat this game (again)? Or did he have another really bad fuck-up contributing to one of the turnovers or something? Because seriously, I only think I even noticed him in the game at all on a couple of plays.


And one more goat. Emmanuel Sanders. You do know you're a starter right? And not a #3 receiver anymore? Fuck you. Step your game up.

Sanders is an excellent point. He's been so invisible I almost forgot we came into the season counting on him to be a main contributor. Proving once again that potential is only that. I'm glad we didn't panic and give him a big long-term deal at like $5-6M a year, because boy has he done nothing to step up so far.

[Steeldude]

Is it just me or is Gilbert on the ground way too often? Who is responsible for evaluating talent across the O-line? He was bad last year too. Adams is weak and soft. Did anyone notice the weak stiff-arm Peppers gave him on the fumble return? He limply put his arm out and Adams instantly gave up. There are no tackles on this team. Our two best tackles of late were Flozell Adams and Starks. Before then it was probably Marvel Smith.

[Craic]

And no Ben wasn't close to being the dickhead of the game. He was the reason the game actually became a game again for a little while. Isaac Redman was the dickhead of the game. If he's a Steeler after tomorrow a coach should be fired in his place.

Sorry Zu, but Ben three of Ben's turnovers were his fault, and hurt, bad. He couldn't hit the broadside of a barn in the first half either. He was most definitely part of the problem. That said, there was some flashes of the old Ben that showed up in the second half. With Heath back, our run game actually getting more than a yard and a half a carry, I really feel like this might be the game we look back on at the end of the season and say, "that's where the turnaround started."

But I'm sorry, Ben is definitely a goat in this game. Protect the football. Protect, protect, protect.

[GoSlash27]

I have the feeling I missed something with Redman tonight while I had my back turned or while I was speeding through the first half trying to catch up on DVR. People are extra pissed. Is it just that he didn't do squat this game (again)? Or did he have another really bad fuck-up contributing to one of the turnovers or something? Because seriously, I only think I even noticed him in the game at all on a couple of plays.

You're not the only one. I have no idea why they're blaming Redman for this. :confused:

I thought our defense looked fine and even the o- line looked much better. I gotta hang this one on Ben and nobody else. We woulda stomped them if it wasn't for all of his turnovers, and they weren't exactly forced by the defense. Poor ball control on the fumbles and sloppy ill- advised throws on the interceptions.

[zulater]

You're not the only one. I have no idea why they're blaming Redman for this. :confused:

I thought our defense looked fine and even the o- line looked much better. I gotta hang this one on Ben and nobody else. We woulda stomped them if it wasn't for all of his turnovers, and they weren't exactly forced by the defense. Poor ball control on the fumbles and sloppy ill- advised throws on the interceptions.

27-23 game, 9 minutes to go, Steelers have the momentum. The Bears drive 74 yards in 9 plays using up 5 minutes of clock, converting 3rd and 12, 3rd an d 10, and 3rd and 5 on the way to a touchdown. Game was over right then. Ben wasn't on the field for any of those 9 plays.


This is not to say Ben wasn't culpable for much of the blame. But the chance was there, and the defense took it away for all intent purposes. The Steeler turnover at the end really didn't make any difference. The death blow came on that Bears TD drive. And the defense is entirely to blame for that.

[zulater]

Still, what had to hurt most of all, what just might have delivered the kill shot to any hopes of some imminent awakening, was the sickeningly soft showing of the reigning No. 1-in-name-only defense.
While the Bears were prying balls loose left and right, the Steelers' takeaway total stayed stuck on nil. The sack total grew by only two, meaning it tripled. Ryan Clark whiffed early on a 55-yard run by Matt Forte, and Willie Gay topped that by hilariously trying to poke the ball from behind rather than, you know, tackling. Michael Bush bulldozed through the box for a fourth-and-1 touchdown. Ike Taylor was beaten on a 41-yard pass — a beauty by Jay Cutler, to be fair — to dispel a very real chance the Steelers had to actually steal this.
The defense had been OK through two games, but this was abysmal.
“We've got to do more,” Clark said. “It's definitely on the defense.”
Yep. Obviously.


Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/dejankovacevic/dejancolumns/4748954-74/steelers-roethlisberger-sunday#ixzz2fiVrgMvI
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[The Bark]

Whoever is the main culprit for letting a huck in overalls scramble for a first down on third and long with under 10 minutes left in the game. I can deal with the turnovers because we fought back and had momentum... until that play. That Cutler decided not to slide added insult to injury.

[katmandu]

Tomlin will be reading from last weeks post game notes.You didn't notice during his news conference that he read from the SAME script from the 1st game ?

He does need to do anymore LIVE news conferences after losses. Just repeat Game 1's video.

[katmandu]

This team stinks. Some sort of shake up has to happen somewhere, or nothing will change.Just wait until the 2014 season. We are in for a world of hurt being up against the CAP.

[HollywoodSteel]

Yeah Ben was a goat today for the turnovers. But those were as much on the offensive line than Ben. Actually all but one were on the o-line. But regardless our defense sucked ass tonight. The last fumble meant nothing. The game was lost when the defense let Cutler drive the length of the field and score a touchdown when all the momentum was on our side. Fuck this defense! Get off the field when it matters! Better yet force a turnover!

The defense was every bit as responsible as the offense for this loss. As were the coaches.

And why the fuck is Isaac Redman still on this team?

It wasn't just the turnovers. He missed open guys. He was inaccurate when he needed to be accurate. He had Sanders open with a step and overthrew him. He had AB in stride on the easiest pass in the world (the one AB yelled at him for) that probably would have gotten a TD or led to one. He dug us into a hole that we we had no business being in and then showed some of what he can do, but not enough to get us out. He is the goat because he is not supposed to be part of the problem, he is supposed to be the solution. If Brady has a bad day from his defense and drops from his receivers, guess what? He'll win anyway because you can bet your ass he won't contribute to the problem. AB was a rock star who made him look good on both TD passes.

That said, you are spot on about the defense. That one play where they had Cutler but let him scramble for the first down might have been the most important play of the game. They make that sack and we probably win. What the hell am I saying? They just would have built my hopes up even more to be let down when Ben would inevitably throw a pick 6 to lose it anyway. Since his injury last year against the Chiefs he has not only been inaccurate, he's been the opposite of clutch.

- - - Updated - - -


Still, what had to hurt most of all, what just might have delivered the kill shot to any hopes of some imminent awakening, was the sickeningly soft showing of the reigning No. 1-in-name-only defense.
While the Bears were prying balls loose left and right, the Steelers' takeaway total stayed stuck on nil. The sack total grew by only two, meaning it tripled. Ryan Clark whiffed early on a 55-yard run by Matt Forte, and Willie Gay topped that by hilariously trying to poke the ball from behind rather than, you know, tackling. Michael Bush bulldozed through the box for a fourth-and-1 touchdown. Ike Taylor was beaten on a 41-yard pass — a beauty by Jay Cutler, to be fair — to dispel a very real chance the Steelers had to actually steal this.
The defense had been OK through two games, but this was abysmal.
“We've got to do more,” Clark said. “It's definitely on the defense.”
Yep. Obviously.


Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/dejankovacevic/dejancolumns/4748954-74/steelers-roethlisberger-sunday#ixzz2fiVrgMvI
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I didn't listen to any post game comments but I'll bet Ben said it was on him. Well, obviously.

[st33lersguy]

The usual suspects: The bumbling coaching staff who does not know what it's doing, the O-line which once again stunk up the joint, and a no-clutch that once again forced no turnovers and once again folded in the clutch (allowing Jay Cutler who is slower than molasses to run for a first down on 3rd and 10, REALLY). Ben also stunk it up.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Whoever is the main culprit for letting a huck in overalls scramble for a first down on third and long with under 10 minutes left in the game. I can deal with the turnovers because we fought back and had momentum... until that play. That Cutler decided not to slide added insult to injury.

Robert Golden. And i agree lol. I cant believe that pussy laid the wood

[Count Steeler]

Robert Golden. And i agree lol. I cant believe that pussy laid the wood

Golden got smacked on the tackle, but I wouldn't say that he had first responsibility for the QB. Looks like Keisel or Heyward (who was triple teamed on the play) had to contain the QB. Timmons was the outside rusher on the play and he overran Cutler.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--jay-cutler-wins-respect-of-bears-teammates-with-reckless-run-against-steelers-065030682.html

[LLT]

Chris Collinsworth.

[walshjoey]

Yeah Ben was a goat today for the turnovers. But those were as much on the offensive line than Ben. Actually all but one were on the o-line. But regardless our defense sucked ass tonight. The last fumble meant nothing. The game was lost when the defense let Cutler drive the length of the field and score a touchdown when all the momentum was on our side. Fuck this defense! Get off the field when it matters! Better yet force a turnover!

The defense was every bit as responsible as the offense for this loss. As were the coaches.

And why the fuck is Isaac Redman still on this team?

Agree about the defense. Our defense comes up small when the game is on the line. Ike always gives up the big catch, always. No turnovers for 2 years now. Either people have us figured out, or our defensive talent is lacking. maybe a bit of both.

[86WARD]

Redman is always a dickhead. Those in the media that say Ben is too "reckless" with the ball aren't watching the games.

[Count Steeler]

Redman is always a dickhead. Those in the media that say Ben is too "reckless" with the ball aren't watching the games.

Redman still listed as the starter on steelers.com. He had promise 2 years ago, but he has been unable to deliver. Time to set sail.

[steeldawg]

Personnel management still baffles me, did anyone notice that after dwyers big gain we didn't sub him out. He was clearly breathing hard in the backfield so not only did we not sub him but we handed him the ball up the middle and he got smashed.

[Count Steeler]

27-23 game 9 minutes left, and our defense allows the Bears to drive 74 yards in nine plays using nearly 5 minutes of clock, converting 3rd and 10, 3rd and 12, and 3rd and 5 on the way to a touchdown and 11 point lead. We had the momentum! All we needed was a stop! Even a field goal and it's still a one score game! So fuck the defense tonight! They can hang their head in shame along with the offense.

Not one forced turnover in 3 games! No other team can claim that distinction! The defense sucks as bad as everyone else.

And they were not on the field too long last night either. That was a disappointing series. The difference between a winner and a loser.

[Psycho Ward 86]

yeah ill admit, i jumped off the redman bandwagon a week ago...


does that even count? i mean he was still doing horrible back then :lol:

[GoSlash27]

I never did get an answer to why Redman is getting blame. What, exactly, did he do?

[Count Steeler]

I never did get an answer to why Redman is getting blame. What, exactly, did he do?

Dwyer put on a display of how an RB should block. Redman whiffed given the same opportunities.

[LLT]

Dwyer put on a display of how an RB should block. Redman whiffed given the same opportunities.

Not to rub it in....But I made the point last year that even though Batch wasnt going to light up the stat sheet...his blocking ability was incredibly overlooked and under appreciated. Glad to see Dwyer has turned into a pretty good blocker.

[Iron Steeler]

We're going 13-3

[Count Steeler]

Not to rub it in....But I made the point last year that even though Batch wasnt going to light up the stat sheet...his blocking ability was incredibly overlooked and under appreciated. Glad to see Dwyer has turned into a pretty good blocker.

For that reason alone I would bring back Batch and release Redman.

[Craic]

I never did get an answer to why Redman is getting blame. What, exactly, did he do?

Did he even dress for the game? He didn't have a run or a pass target to him all night. Heck, I don't think he even got on the field.

- - - Updated - - -


Dwyer put on a display of how an RB should block. Redman whiffed given the same opportunities.

And how to hit a DB. Wow, I haven't seen someone in the Black and Gold with the football lay the wood like since . . . Dwyer did it last year. Before that, I don't know. Bettis?

[GoSlash27]

Dwyer put on a display of how an RB should block. Redman whiffed given the same opportunities.

Last night? Which blocks did he whiff? :confused:


Did he even dress for the game? He didn't have a run or a pass target to him all night. Heck, I don't think he even got on the field.
I only saw him on the field once. That was Ben's QB sneak. Which was successful. Because Redman shoved him across the line. So I'm just as lost as you here. :noidea:


And how to hit a DB. Wow, I haven't seen someone in the Black and Gold with the football lay the wood like since . . . Dwyer did it last year. Before that, I don't know. Bettis?
Chris Fuamatu Ma'afala. Remember *that* hit? :D

[HollywoodSteel]

The weird thing is that Redman and Dwyer were both excellent blockers last year... rated as the top two blocking backs in the league I think. My problem isn't really with Redman himself (except for his turnovers) it's how he's used. When he was originally kept over Dwyer I never for the life of me thought it was to be an every down back. I figured most of the workload would go to Jones (until Bell came back or Jones got hurt) and that Redman was kept as the short yardage back that he is. I figured we cut Dwyer because we wasn't as good as Jones or hyphen as an every down back and not quite as good as Redman as a short yardage back. The fact that Redman was given the bulk of the workload opening week was baffling.

[Count Steeler]

Redman was on for 3 or 4 plays. One of the whiffs resulted in a turnover or a sack. Even the announcers were saying what difference Dwyer made when he came into the game. And the falloff when Redman was in.

[steeldawg]

he didn't whiff he blocked the guy and ben tried to pull the ball down and squeeze by him like had done on the last ten drives and his ar was bumped and he fumbled.

[GoSlash27]

Redman was on for 3 or 4 plays. One of the whiffs resulted in a turnover or a sack. Even the announcers were saying what difference Dwyer made when he came into the game. And the falloff when Redman was in.
I'd need to see footage. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Count Steeler]

Hopefully one of the guys that have the coaches package can put up some shots. Or maybe Chidi29 can help.

[HollywoodSteel]

Last night? Which blocks did he whiff? :confused:


I only saw him on the field once. That was Ben's QB sneak. Which was successful. Because Redman shoved him across the line. So I'm just as lost as you here. :noidea:

I'll give Haley credit for putting Redman in as a decoy on that play which might be why the QB sneak worked.

[GoSlash27]

he didn't whiff he blocked the guy and ben tried to pull the ball down and squeeze by him like had done on the last ten drives and his ar was bumped and he fumbled.

That was the play? I hadn't even noticed that Redman was *in* that play. And yeah, definitely I didn't see anybody blowing coverage on it.

[steeldawg]

That was the play? I hadn't even noticed that Redman was *in* that play. And yeah, definitely I didn't see anybody blowing coverage on it.

Ya and ben was running for his life all game but people are acting like dwyer was swatting away defenders at will.

[GoSlash27]

^ But even if it is true and Redman screwed up badly and caused that turnover... that was *the* play that marked him as the goat and cost us the game? Ben had 3 fumbles (one of which he recovered) and 2 picks (one of which isn't worth counting) and you single *that* one out? Weird...

- - - Updated - - -


Ya and ben was running for his life all game but people are acting like dwyer was swatting away defenders at will.

Hey, if Dwyer is the go- to guy then so be it. I'll get behind whoever helps us win. I'm just not getting how Redman was a factor at all, let alone responsible for costing us the game. :crazy:

[steeldawg]

^ But even if it is true and Redman screwed up badly and caused that turnover... that was *the* play that marked him as the goat and cost us the game? Ben had 3 fumbles (one of which he recovered) and 2 picks (one of which isn't worth counting) and you single *that* one out? Weird...

Well he's a marked man now after the titans game. He didnt screw up on the play he got the block it was a blitz up the middle I don't even think ben was sacked on the play, his arm got hit the ball flew behind his back and right into the hands of peppers for a td, lol sums up our night. Yes like I said ben was running for his life all game dwyer was in the right spots so was redman ben just couldn't quite step up like he did when dwyer was in the game.

[GoSlash27]

Well he's a marked man now after the titans game. He didnt screw up on the play he got the block it was a blitz up the middle I don't even think ben was sacked on the play, his arm got hit the ball flew behind his back and right into the hands of peppers for a td, lol sums up our night. Yes like I said ben was running for his life all game dwyer was in the right spots so was redman ben just couldn't quite step up like he did when dwyer was in the game.

No argument there, but that was a whole other game.
/ I blame Neil O'Donnell :D

[Edman]

Ben deserves a big share of the blame.

He singlehandedly buried the Steelers early.

[zulater]

Ben deserves a big share of the blame.

He singlehandedly buried the Steelers early.

Your first sentence is accurate, the second, not so much.

"Singlehandedly"? So every other Steeler did their job as required on those turnovers?

You've always hated Ben, even when he's played great. I imagine your enjoying his struggles tremendously.

[Count Steeler]

Well he's a marked man now after the titans game. He didnt screw up on the play he got the block it was a blitz up the middle I don't even think ben was sacked on the play, his arm got hit the ball flew behind his back and right into the hands of peppers for a td, lol sums up our night. Yes like I said ben was running for his life all game dwyer was in the right spots so was redman ben just couldn't quite step up like he did when dwyer was in the game.

Yeah, they were both in the right spots, one did his job the other didn't.

You're distaste for Dwyer is now clouding your vision. I was all for giving Redman the chance last year and this year. There is no argument that you can make to keep Redman at this point. I hope the FO doesn't get stubborn and keep Redman. Keep the guys that are making the plays.

[Texasteel]

Last night I would have to say Ben, but I have to give honorable mention to the entire coaching staff. This team is playing like they are still in pre season, and I lay that at the feet of the coaches.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Not to rub it in....But I made the point last year that even though Batch wasnt going to light up the stat sheet...his blocking ability was incredibly overlooked and under appreciated. Glad to see Dwyer has turned into a pretty good blocker.

not trying to be snarky but how are you rubbing it in if the #1 and #2 rated pass blocking RB's from last season are currently on the roster?

[LLT]

not trying to be snarky but how are you rubbing it in if the #1 and #2 rated pass blocking RB's from last season are currently on the roster?

If you remember the argument, There were some who didnt understand the value of a blocking back last year. Dwyer and Redman developed into good blockers by mid season but that wasnt the case at the begining of last season. In fact, I agreed that they had developed to the point that Batch was expendable. As of this last game, Dwyer has bolstered that point since Redman has seriously underperformed in that area and the difference has been very noticeable.

[Chin05]

Redman still listed as the starter on steelers.com. He had promise 2 years ago, but he has been unable to deliver. Time to set sail.

Until then he's our decoy but won't take teams long to read that message and agree Red not an NFL back!

[steeldawg]

Yeah, they were both in the right spots, one did his job the other didn't.

You're distaste for Dwyer is now clouding your vision. I was all for giving Redman the chance last year and this year. There is no argument that you can make to keep Redman at this point. I hope the FO doesn't get stubborn and keep Redman. Keep the guys that are making the plays.

No redman was hardly on the field and he did his job on the play, his job on that play is only to pick up the blitz which he did. Its ben job since he is the one with the ball to protect it and step up, redmans job is to pick up the blitzing linebacker not watch where ben is going. You saw many of the same plays with dwyer in the game and ben made some great escapes, heck there where even 1 or 2 plays where ben hit dwyer as he was throwing the ball causing an errant pass. I watched the play over and over the defender never even touched ben it wasn't even a sack ben was too loose with the ball and he hit it on redmans back as he tried to step up and fumbled it. mY judgment isn't clouded go back and watch the play. It actually was a good block because briggs was right over the center and came free on the snap and redman who was flanked left had to come across bens face to get him which is a tough play for any back.

[LLT]

No redman was hardly on the field and he did his job on the play, his job on that play is only to pick up the blitz which he did. Its ben job since he is the one with the ball to protect it and step up, redmans job is to pick up the blitzing linebacker not watch where ben is going. You saw many of the same plays with dwyer in the game and ben made some great escapes, heck there where even 1 or 2 plays where ben hit dwyer as he was throwing the ball causing an errant pass. I watched the play over and over the defender never even touched ben it wasn't even a sack ben was too loose with the ball and he hit it on redmans back as he tried to step up and fumbled it. mY judgment isn't clouded go back and watch the play. It actually was a good block because briggs was right over the center and came free on the snap and redman who was flanked left had to come across bens face to get him which is a tough play for any back.

If we use YOUR logic in saying that Bell is spectacular solely based on draft position and college resume....how can you deny that Dwyer is better than Redman based on HIS resume thus far this year and his starting position?

[zulater]

At the risk of coming off as a prude, phoney or dilettante, could we stick with terms such as goats, choke artist, or zero's to describe sub par performances in the weeks ahead? Yeah I know my language gets salty in these forums, but something about putting it in the thread title strikes me as wrong.

[Craic]

At the risk of coming off as a prude, phoney or dilettante, could we stick with terms such as goats, choke artist, or zero's to describe sub par performances in the weeks ahead? Yeah I know my language gets salty in these forums, but something about putting it in the thread title strikes me as wrong.

Actually I agree . . . partly because thread titles show up more prominently on tablets and other such things, and while this really is minor in comparison, it still might be considered NSFW depending on where you work. (I'm thinking grade school, preschool, Anthony Weiner's headquarters, etc.)

[Count Steeler]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/09/felix-jones-has-replaced-isaac-redman-as-the-co-starter-on-the-depth-chart/

Dwyer has passed Redman on the depth chart. Jones and Bell are listed as co-starters.

[steeldawg]

If we use YOUR logic in saying that Bell is spectacular solely based on draft position and college resume....how can you deny that Dwyer is better than Redman based on HIS resume thus far this year and his starting position?

Never said that bell was spectacular solely based on his draft position only that he's a more talented back than dwyer. Also I never said redman was better than dwyer I said he could make all the same runs and he was a better receiver and short yardage runner. Based on redmans resume all that is true, he has been a bit bumpy to start this season but to take such a small sample a say based his "resume" this year is ridiculous. Besides none of this has anything to do with the play in question.

[Count Steeler]

Redman = small sample
Bell = no sample

Conclusion Bell >>>>> Redman

[LLT]

Redman = small sample
Bell = no sample

Conclusion Bell >>>>> Redman

LOL...exactly. I love it when peiople form a conclusion...then twist and bend "facts" to support that conclusion.

[steeldawg]

What is being bent? You again confuse production with talent. Your conlusion is dwyer has had a below average career and was a 6th round draft pick but because bell hasn't taken a snap yet dwyer is more talented, that is ridiculous.

[LLT]

What is being bent? You again confuse production with talent. Your conlusion is dwyer has had a below average career and was a 6th round draft pick but because bell hasn't taken a snap yet dwyer is more talented, that is ridiculous.

No...that is you twisting facts AGAIN!!! The argument that you presented to EVERYONE...and have failed to listen to reason....is that you keep praising Bell even though he is an UNKNOWN quantity. The only thing that you can judge in determining if someone has NFL talent is.... how they do in the NFL.
What is ridiculous is the fact that regardless of what argument...debate...reasoning...that is presented to you....you deflect/dodge/twist/ but STILL refuse to understand/comprehend that simple fact.

For the record...I do understand the difference between production and talent. Im fact I understand it enough to realize how simplistic and uninformed your arguments tend to be.

1) I liked Wallace...therefore Brown sucks...damn the facts
2) I like Bell....therefore Bell doesnt need to prove anything in the NFL because he is "talented"...damn the facts.

[steelreserve]

At the risk of coming off as a prude, phoney or dilettante, could we stick with terms such as goats, choke artist, or zero's to describe sub par performances in the weeks ahead? Yeah I know my language gets salty in these forums, but something about putting it in the thread title strikes me as wrong.

Well, I guess it's been changed anyway, but for the record, I had no intention of making that a regular thing (or of usually being the one to make the goat thread in the first place, for that matter). The start of this season has just been ... exceptional circumstances. There were at least 20 guys who played like one:


http://i.imgur.com/xMZ7d6q.jpg

[steeldawg]

No...that is you twisting facts AGAIN!!! The argument that you presented to EVERYONE...and have failed to listen to reason....is that you keep praising Bell even though he is an UNKNOWN quantity. The only thing that you can judge in determining if someone has NFL talent is.... how they do in the NFL.
What is ridiculous is the fact that regardless of what argument...debate...reasoning...that is presented to you....you deflect/dodge/twist/ but STILL refuse to understand/comprehend that simple fact.

For the record...I do understand the difference between production and talent. Im fact I understand it enough to realize how simplistic and uninformed your arguments tend to be.

1) I liked Wallace...therefore Brown sucks...damn the facts
2) I like Bell....therefore Bell doesnt need to prove anything in the NFL because he is "talented"...damn the facts.

Bell is talented that is a fact he has nfl talent that is a fact
I have never said brown sucks And the facts are Wallace has been a more productive receiver than brown and is regarded as a bigger weapon than brown.....Those are facts!

If you think jonathan dwyer is a more talented running than leveon bell you clearly don't understand the difference. Your argument is ridiculous, leveon bells talent is not a secret or unknown again determining if a player is talented enough at football to play in the nfl is made before the player reaches the nfl thats how we determine who gets invited to camp. You don't draft a guy in the second round who does not posses the physical tools and ability to play in the nfl, it makes no sense.

[Count Steeler]

Bell is talented that is a fact he has nfl talent that is a fact
I have never said brown sucks And the facts are Wallace has been a more productive receiver than brown and is regarded as a bigger weapon than brown.....Those are facts!

If you think jonathan dwyer is a more talented running than leveon bell you clearly don't understand the difference. Your argument is ridiculous, leveon bells talent is not a secret or unknown again determining if a player is talented enough at football to play in the nfl is made before the player reaches the nfl thats how we determine who gets invited to camp. You don't draft a guy in the second round who does not posses the physical tools and ability to play in the nfl, it makes no sense.


http://youtu.be/LjlwUnVXQ4U

[Mojouw]

You don't draft a guy in the second round who does not posses the physical tools and ability to play in the nfl, it makes no sense.

Unfortunately the Steelers make a habit of this practice.

[LLT]

Bell is talented that is a fact he has nfl talent that is a fact
I have never said brown sucks And the facts are Wallace has been a more productive receiver than brown and is regarded as a bigger weapon than brown.....Those are facts!

If you think jonathan dwyer is a more talented running than leveon bell you clearly don't understand the difference. Your argument is ridiculous, leveon bells talent is not a secret or unknown again determining if a player is talented enough at football to play in the nfl is made before the player reaches the nfl thats how we determine who gets invited to camp. You don't draft a guy in the second round who does not posses the physical tools and ability to play in the nfl, it makes no sense.

The debate was NEVER about who is better. That is just you trying confuse the debate with non facts. It was about you saying that ...


Bell is talented that is a fact he has nfl talent that is a fact

You will not find ONE person of knowledge who agrees with the silly statement that a person who has never played one down in the NFL DEFINITELY possesses NFL talent. Again...you dont seem to comprehend the difference in translating talent from "potential" to reality.

Or you do....and are being too stubborn to admit it.

Those who know little about football often make those type of broad brush statements. Try sitting back and learning, instead of so desperately trying to prove yourself that you are forced into a corner with your fingers in your ears screaming "I cant hear you"!

[Count Steeler]

The draft is 50-50 at best. First round, second round, any round.

There are plenty of busts in the Steelers (in fact all NFL teams) near past FROM THE SECOND ROUND to make your argument laughable.

If NFL TALENT was so easily gauged because of time spent at a lower level of playing the game, busts in the 1st and 2nd round would be rarities. This is not the case.

I hope Bell pans out, but I can't draw a conclusion without seeing ANY NFL GAME FOOTAGE.

[LLT]

Bell is talented that is a fact he has nfl talent that is a fact
I have never said brown sucks And the facts are Wallace has been a more productive receiver than brown and is regarded as a bigger weapon than brown.....Those are facts!

If you think jonathan dwyer is a more talented running than leveon bell you clearly don't understand the difference. Your argument is ridiculous, leveon bells talent is not a secret or unknown again determining if a player is talented enough at football to play in the nfl is made before the player reaches the nfl thats how we determine who gets invited to camp. You don't draft a guy in the second round who does not posses the physical tools and ability to play in the nfl, it makes no sense.

The debate was NEVER about who is better. That is just you trying confuse the debate with non facts. It was about you saying that ...


Bell is talented that is a fact he has nfl talent that is a fact

You will not find ONE person of knowledge who agrees with the silly statement that a person who has never played one down in the NFL DEFINITELY possesses NFL talent. Again...you dont seem to comprehend the difference in translating talent from "potential" to reality.

Or you do....and are being too stubborn to admit it

- - - Updated - - -


Unfortunately the Steelers make a habit of this practice.

Already tried to explain that to him. The "Sweed" argument goes in one ear and out the other.

[Moose]

Are you kidding me ?! You actually trying to narrow a 'goat' on this team ? My naming of 'goat' would be the whole damn team and coaching staff. The Steeler HERD.

[steelreserve]

Are you kidding me ?! You actually trying to narrow a 'goat' on this team ? My naming of 'goat' would be the whole damn team and coaching staff. The Steeler HERD.

Well, it originally said "dickhead," and yes, there were several. At least. I am really starting to question the coaching, and by that I don't just mean Tomlin. Even if we ran the table from here on out, how we could come into the season looking this bad is just beyond me. This team is not one of the best anymore talent-wise, but it's solidly average at minimum, probably above average. Yet they're playing like the worst team in the league. It doesn't add up unless something else is dragging them down, and where does that leave us?

[Craic]

Bell is talented that is a fact he has nfl talent that is a fact
I have never said brown sucks And the facts are Wallace has been a more productive receiver than brown and is regarded as a bigger weapon than brown.....Those are facts!



http://addins.whig.com/blogs/steviedirt/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/JACKoutspective-uncle-si-thats-a-fact-jack-300x300.png


It all makes sense now.

[GoSlash27]

The debate was NEVER about who is better. That is just you trying confuse the debate with non facts. It was about you saying that ...
Umm... actually the debate was about if and why Redman deserves a game goat for week 3 vs. Chicago.

/ this thread is making me miss the respectful and well- reasoned discourse in the soapbox forum

[steelreserve]

Umm... actually the debate was about if and why Redman deserves a game goat for week 3 vs. Chicago.

/ this thread is making me miss the respectful and well- reasoned discourse in the soapbox forum

For what it's worth - based on what I saw and have heard people talking about, there's no way he should get a game goat/dickhead award. He was hardly in the game and may or may not have made one bad play. Whether he sucks in general is another matter, but to me the goat is a guy who cost you the game or had a really negative impact on the game. Redman hardly had any impact on the game, which I guess is upsetting, but in a different way than earning the dickhead of the game title.

[steeldawg]

The debate was NEVER about who is better. That is just you trying confuse the debate with non facts. It was about you saying that ...



You will not find ONE person of knowledge who agrees with the silly statement that a person who has never played one down in the NFL DEFINITELY possesses NFL talent. Again...you dont seem to comprehend the difference in translating talent from "potential" to reality.

Or you do....and are being too stubborn to admit it

- - - Updated - - -



Already tried to explain that to him. The "Sweed" argument goes in one ear and out the other.

This is paul richardsons scouting report from cbssports:

One of the Pac-12's most talented receivers, Richardson missed the 2012 season due to a torn knee ligament that required surgery. Although after a 1-11 season, maybe it wasn't the worst thing that he didn't have to be a part of Colorado's abysmal season. But Richardson is fully healthy and poised for a breakout season, if he can stay healthy - something he hasn't been able to do yet over his three seasons in Boulder. He performed well during spring practices and has the new coaching staff excited about his potential. Richardson has said his reconstructed knee is better than ever, calling it "almost scary." Time will tell if he can stay healthy, but there is no question Richardson has intriguing NFL talent.

[Craic]

This is paul richardsons scouting report from cbssports:

One of the Pac-12's most talented receivers, Richardson missed the 2012 season due to a torn knee ligament that required surgery. Although after a 1-11 season, maybe it wasn't the worst thing that he didn't have to be a part of Colorado's abysmal season. But Richardson is fully healthy and poised for a breakout season, if he can stay healthy - something he hasn't been able to do yet over his three seasons in Boulder. He performed well during spring practices and has the new coaching staff excited about his potential. Richardson has said his reconstructed knee is better than ever, calling it "almost scary." Time will tell if he can stay healthy, but there is no question Richardson has intriguing NFL talent.

Intriguing: something that makes one curious, interested.

That is a far, FAR cry from "Definite" as LLT said. What you have above, speaks to his possibility of interesting NFL talent, and that's what makes it intriguing.

tl;dr intriguing ≠ definite NFL talent.

[Seven]

determining if a player is talented enough at football to play in the nfl is made before the player reaches the nfl This provided me a good laugh.

[Texasteel]

Please keep to the topic, don't just pick a tread and move an old dead tread into it.

[GoSlash27]

For what it's worth - based on what I saw and have heard people talking about, there's no way he should get a game goat/dickhead award. He was hardly in the game and may or may not have made one bad play. Whether he sucks in general is another matter, but to me the goat is a guy who cost you the game or had a really negative impact on the game. Redman hardly had any impact on the game, which I guess is upsetting, but in a different way than earning the dickhead of the game title.

'Zackly.

[steeldawg]

Intriguing: something that makes one curious, interested.

That is a far, FAR cry from "Definite" as LLT said. What you have above, speaks to his possibility of interesting NFL talent, and that's what makes it intriguing.

tl;dr intriguing ≠ definite NFL talent.

talk about twisting words, no intriguing does not mean "the possibility" of anything it means something is fascinating or arouses curiosity, catches attention.

[steeldawg]

Notre Dame, which played for the National Championship last year, opened the season with a 28-6 win over Temple on Saturday. Based on the NFL talent the Irish have for next year’s NFL Draft I would say they looked average. Both their offensive and defensive lines are as good as there is in college football and because of that I was expecting a more dominant performance.

This was description of notre dame after beating temple, by national football post.

[Dwinsgames]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

I am not getting involved in this roller coaster with no end AGAIN ...


I can't fix that stupid

[Texasteel]

Well, go to hell Tex..... One more off topic post and I will lock this thread.

[Craic]

Well, go to hell Tex..... One more off topic post and I will lock this thread.

Guys . . . guys...! Did you see the size of that chicken?

Couldn't resist. :chuckle:

[Hawkman]

Is it locked?

- - - Updated - - -

Guess not!!:chuckle:

[Texasteel]

Sorry steelreserve, this thread has been totally hy-jacked, and the last two, I dare you post did not help.