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View Full Version : Be honest and settle the debate once and for all Tomlin people .



60_MINUTES
09-17-2013, 12:23 PM
Who are your top Two players on D. Who is it we can't afford to lose the best of the best ? Troy p. Ike Taylor. Keisel still best on line. How about on the other side of the ball. Of course BIg BEN and Heath miller. I use to give mike credit for pouncey but he hasn't played that well for two years. And last night a guy off the street looked better than pouncey. M


Whats my point ? Mike Tomlin has been here for 7 years. And the two stars on your D are cowher guys and the two stars on your O. Are cowher guys. 7 damn years guys and the best players on be team are cowher guys.

One of the worst O in football. And be honest if u take Troy. Ike Brent. And Ryan off D. Then we would be bottom of league there to . Our team is losing cause mike doesn't have an eye for talent. He thinks duds like Dwyer are the future.

all I'm saying is that after 7 years Tomlin should have at least one great player

NJarhead
09-17-2013, 12:26 PM
Who are your top Two players on D. Who is it we can't afford to lose the best of the best ? Troy p. Ike Taylor. Keisel still best on line. How about on the other side of the ball. Of course BIg BEN and Heath miller. I use to give mike credit for pouncey but he hasn't played that well for two years. And last night a guy off the street looked better than pouncey. M


Whats my point ? Mike Tomlin has been here for 7 years. And the two stars on your D are cowher guys and the two stars on your O. Are cowher guys. 7 damn years guys and the best players on be team are cowher guys.

One of the worst O in football. And be honest if u take Troy. Ike Brent. And Ryan off D. Then we would be bottom of league there to . Our team is losing cause mike doesn't have an eye for talent. He thinks duds like Dwyer are the future.

all I'm saying is that after 7 years Tomlin should have at least one great player

That's meaningless. Cowher lost with his own guys his last year. Tomlin has already matched Cowher's success in a shorter span. You also have to factor that we got those players after crap years UNDER COWHER (picking higher in the draft). Tomlin, thankfully hasn't had the opportunity to pick higher in the draft until this past year and we got what is seemingly a gem in Jarvis Jones. Hopefully another in Le'veon Bell and yet another in Shamarko Thomas.

Anyway, I think your point is meaningless.

zulater
09-17-2013, 12:29 PM
Timmons is in the argument for best defensive player.

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That's meaningless. Cowher lost with his own guys his last year. Tomlin has already matched Cowher's success in a shorter span. You also have to factor that we got those players after crap years UNDER COWHER (picking higher in the draft). Tomlin, thankfully hasn't had the opportunity to pick higher in the draft until this past year and we got what is seemingly a gem in Jarvis Jones. Hopefully another in Le'veon Bell and yet another in Shamarko Thomas.

Anyway, I think your point is meaningless.

Cowher just mailed it in his last year in the league. I've heard from a reliable source that his wife's melanoma was already an issue, and that moving to North Carolina and family needs pretty much consumed all his thoughts that last year.

NJarhead
09-17-2013, 12:34 PM
Timmons is in the argument for best defensive player. Yes, and we may have to add Jones to that list by the end of the year. It remains to be seen.

Also, we got Troy after trading up from 27th. I see no reason to doubt Tomlin wouldn't have done the same.

Coincidently, that was the draft immediately after we went 0-2 to start the season.

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Timmons is in the argument for best defensive player.

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Cowher just mailed it in his last year in the league. I've heard from a reliable source that his wife's melanoma was already an issue, and that moving to North Carolina and family needs pretty much consumed all his thoughts that last year.

That'd mean something if we didn't also suck in 1998 - 2000 and again in 2003.

zulater
09-17-2013, 12:38 PM
Yes, and we may have to add Jones to that list by the end of the year. It remains to be seen.

Also, we got Troy after trading up from 27th. I see no reason to doubt Tomlin wouldn't have done the same.

Coincidently, that was the draft immediately after we went 0-2 to start the season.

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That'd mean something if we didn't also suck in 1998 - 2000 and again in 2003.

We didn't suck in 2000, that season's 9-7 was the same as Tomlin's 2009 season. And it can be argued that we didn't suck in 98. First off I'd welcome that 7-9 of 98 this year. Second 98 closely resembled Tomlin's 2012. The Steelers were in the division race until late in the season. If I remember right it was the Thanksgiving coin toss game that derailed that season.

NJarhead
09-17-2013, 12:41 PM
We didn't suck in 2000, that season's 9-7 was the same as Tomlin's 2009 season. And it can be argued that we didn't suck in 98. First off I'd welcome that 7-9 of 98 this year. Second 98 closely resembled Tomlin's 2012. The Steelers were in the division race until late in the season. If I remember right it was the Thanksgiving coin toss game that derailed that season.

I don't give praise to 9 wins and 7 losses. Unless on those rare instances that that team goes to and wins the SB. I can only think of one team that's done that off the top of my head.

A team that gets derailed for the season in November has more leadership issues than our beloved 2013 team.

Mojouw
09-17-2013, 12:42 PM
Are we really seriously having this discussion? When Cowher was coaching all Steelers fan wanted to do was talk about how his teams constantly played down to the competition, started the season slow, and wasted draft picks outside of round one. Does any of that sound familiar?

NJarhead
09-17-2013, 12:43 PM
Are we really seriously having this discussion? When Cowher was coaching all Steelers fan wanted to do was talk about how his teams constantly played down to the competition, started the season slow, and wasted draft picks outside of round one. Does any of that sound familiar?

Don't forget that he can't win the big one.

zulater
09-17-2013, 12:46 PM
I don't give praise to 9 wins and 7 losses. Unless on those rare instances that that team goes to and wins the SB. I can only think of one team that's done that off the top of my head.

A team that gets derailed for the season in November has more leadership issues than our beloved 2013 team.

No the 98 team got derailed mostly by a quarterback who came unglued as the season progressed. This despite having a good running game and sound offensive line. Yes it's true Cowher invested too heavily in Kordell, but coming off the season he had in 97 it was understandable at the time.

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Don't forget that he can't win the big one.

He did once he had the right quarterback. I certainly wouldn't envision a Cowher led team losing to Tim Tebow.

NJarhead
09-17-2013, 12:48 PM
No the 98 team got derailed mostly by a quarterback who came unglued as the season progressed. This despite having a good running game and sound offensive line. Yes it's true Cowher invested too heavily in Kordell, but coming off the season he had in 97 it was understandable at the time.

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He did once he had the right quarterback. I certainly wouldn't envision a Cowher led team losing to Tim Tebow.

Cowher would have went in with the exact same game plan (at least on defense): 8 in the box all the time. No one expected Tebow to throw it and he beat our defense on 10 completions.

Cowher lost to some chump teams on occasion as well.

zulater
09-17-2013, 12:55 PM
Cowher would have went in with the exact same game plan (at least on defense): 8 in the box all the time. No one expected Tebow to throw it and he beat our defense on 10 completions.

Cowher lost to some chump teams on occasion as well.

Not to Teboy though. To me that was the all time low in franchise playoff losses. There's not even a close second.

LLT
09-17-2013, 12:57 PM
Who are your top Two players on D. Who is it we can't afford to lose the best of the best ? Troy p. Ike Taylor. Keisel still best on line. How about on the other side of the ball. Of course BIg BEN and Heath miller.

Ike Taylor? Really? How do you figure he has been more valuable than Ryan Clark?
...and I think the argument can be made that Antonio Brown is one of the top two players on offense.

NJarhead
09-17-2013, 12:58 PM
Not to Teboy though. To me that was the all time low in franchise playoff losses. There's not even a close second.

Really? I didn't think losing that game hurt any more or worse. Losing to the Patriots in 2004, at home, again, crushed me.

Ready for me to crush your Cowher memories? haha




....wait for it....







....here it comes...






http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/291/603/719797_display_image.jpg?1278665668


Tomlin wouldn't employ a .... "Kent....Graham." haha

zulater
09-17-2013, 01:01 PM
Really? I didn't think losing that game hurt any more or worse. Losing to the Patriots in 2004, at home, again, crushed me.

Ready for me to crush your Cowher memories? haha




....wait for it....







....here it comes...






http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/291/603/719797_display_image.jpg?1278665668


Tomlin wouldn't employ a .... "Kent....Graham." haha

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Give it a year or so and don't be shocked if we get that all over again.

zulater
09-17-2013, 01:12 PM
By the way, Cowher's gone and not coming back. We all got that. But I liked Cowher. Liked him better than Tomlin in fact, and think he was a better coach in his day. Matter of opinion obviously. Just don't say it's completely without merit and we can agree to disagree on this point. :drink:

I also don't think Tomlin deserves to be fired. Yet. His resume is too strong and the Rooney's don't fire coaches. He's got at least a 3 year grace.

What I'm worried about is that if in say two or three years things aren't getting better will the Rooney's be so married to the we never change coaches mantra that they'll continue to let this team devolve indefinitely and leave Tomlin in place for the sake of a legacy?

I hope it doesn't come to that and things start to turn around soon. But for now call me skeptic.

steelerdude15
09-17-2013, 01:15 PM
I would say that Ben and Heath are the two best players on the offense and Troy and Lawrence are the two best players on the defense.

So yes, there is at least one great player drafted by Tomlin and there are more. Hopefully Lawerence answers your inquiry.

NJarhead
09-17-2013, 01:18 PM
By the way, Cowher's gone and not coming back. We all got that. But I liked Cowher. Liked him better than Tomlin in fact, and think he was a better coach in his day. Matter of opinion obviously. Just don't say it's completely without merit and we can agree to disagree on this point. :drink:

I also don't think Tomlin deserves to be fired. Yet. His resume is too strong and the Rooney's don't fire coaches. He's got at least a 3 year grace.

What I'm worried about is that if in say two or three years things aren't getting better will the Rooney's be so married to the we never change coaches mantra that they'll continue to let this team devolve indefinitely and leave Tomlin in place for the sake of a legacy?

I hope it doesn't come to that and things start to turn around soon. But for now call me skeptic.

I think we're fine in disagreement. But you do surprise me in that I always thought you were a bit more patient and rational than I view you as today.

Anyway, I can't put myself in the frame of mind to speculate three years down the road. I'm only thinking about next week and slightly beyond. Based on what I've seen and what we have today, I think there is a good chance of losing to Chicago next Sunday night. But again, I'm still not putting the nail in our coffin.

I loved Bill Cowher and I love Coach Tomlin as well. They both impressed me in different ways. I've also been frustrated by teams they've both fielded.

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Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Give it a year or so and don't be shocked if we get that all over again.

Zu, now I just think you're high. haha

Bluecoat96
09-17-2013, 01:24 PM
What's there to settle? You don't like Tomlin. You never have. You start multiple threads about the same basic thing....BLAH BLAH BLAH....TOMLIN BAD.....COWHER GOOD!!! ME HATE TOMLIN!!!! There's no debate. You won't listen to one bit of reason either way.

fansince'76
09-17-2013, 01:27 PM
Are we really seriously having this discussion? When Cowher was coaching all Steelers fan wanted to do was talk about how his teams constantly played down to the competition, started the season slow, and wasted draft picks outside of round one. Does any of that sound familiar?

This! 1000 times, THIS. If I had a nickel for everytime someone bitched about "Cowherball," I'd have retired years ago.

Mojouw
09-17-2013, 01:29 PM
Cowher was a magic wizard from a mystical land of football gods. He could have circumvented the salary cap, somehow managed to keep power I football relevant in an unprecedented era of passing, and he would have motivated THE HELL out of this team. They would have 5 wins in two weeks if ole Bill was in charge.

See. Perfectly logical.

zulater
09-17-2013, 01:30 PM
I think we're fine in disagreement. But you do surprise me in that I always thought you were a bit more patient and rational than I view you as today.

Anyway, I can't put myself in the frame of mind to speculate three years down the road. I'm only thinking about next week and slightly beyond. Based on what I've seen and what we have today, I think there is a good chance of losing to Chicago next Sunday night. But again, I'm still not putting the nail in our coffin.

I loved Bill Cowher and I love Coach Tomlin as well. They both impressed me in different ways. I've also been frustrated by teams they've both fielded.

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Zu, now I just think you're high. haha

Call me irrational and impatient all you want. And I hope you prove right. But I honestly think it's more along the lines that I have come out from under a state of denial. With a vengeance! :lol: Honestly I've had deep seeded fears for a couple years now that this team was headed for a total derailment and mostly kept those fears at bay. Tday I guess it's all coming out? Maybe tomorrow I'll see things differently? :noidea: But for today at least I just think things are going to get worse before they get better and those in position to fix things aren't up to the job. That this bump in the road wont be temporary or brief. Hope I'm wrong.

zulater
09-17-2013, 01:32 PM
What's thee to settle? You don't like Tomlin. You never have. You start multiple threads about the same basic thing....BLAH BLAH BLAH....TOMLIN BAD.....COWHER GOOD!!! ME HATE TOMLIN!!!! There's no debate. You won't listen to one bit of reason either way.


You don't know what you're talking about when you claim to know my mind.

NJarhead
09-17-2013, 01:32 PM
Cowher was a magic wizard from a mystical land of football gods. He could have circumvented the salary cap, somehow managed to keep power I football relevant in an unprecedented era of passing, and he would have motivated THE HELL out of this team. They would have 5 wins in two weeks if ole Bill was in charge.

See. Perfectly logical.

I can't wait to read about what Tomlin could do once he's retired. lol

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Call me irrational and impatient all you want. And I hope you prove right. But I honestly think it's more along the lines that I have come out from under a state of denial. With a vengeance! :lol: Honestly I've had deep seeded fears for a couple years now that this team was headed for a total derailment and mostly kept those fears at bay. Tday I guess it's all coming out? Maybe tomorrow I'll see things differently? :noidea: But for today at least I just think things are going to get worse before they get better and those in position to fix things aren't up to the job. This this bump in the road wont be temporary or brief. Hope I'm wrong.

Hey now, I was extremely careful how I worded that. To me, compared to what I'm used to from you, you "seem" that way today, and I'm a bit surprised. Nothing more to read into it and my intention was in no way meant to insult you. If I did, then I apologize. :drink:

fansince'76
09-17-2013, 01:32 PM
Not to Teboy though. To me that was the all time low in franchise playoff losses. There's not even a close second.

I dunno, losing to Stan Humphries and Bobby Ross at home when we should have wiped the field with them was pretty bad. Ditto for the 2001 AFCCG, also at home against another team they should have wiped the field with. Cowher teams had a habit of coming up small in the bigger games.

LLT
09-17-2013, 01:36 PM
You don't know what you're talking about when you claim to know my mind.

I dont think that was directed at you Zu.

zulater
09-17-2013, 01:38 PM
I can't wait to read about what Tomlin could do once he's retired. lol

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Hey now, I was extremely careful how I worded that. To me, compared to what I'm used to from you, you "seem" that way today, and I'm a bit surprised. Nothing more to read into it and my intention was in no way meant to insult you. If I did, then I apologize. :drink:

No offense taken. Besides there are plenty of others who do mean to insult me, and I don't take offense there either. :lol:

Hey it's not like I wont stay loyal to this team through thick and thin. I just am worried that the process of fixing things wont be delayed by denial, pride, and tradition?

Or maybe things don't really need that much fixing? I really hope so. I'm not married to my opinion, if it's proven wrong no one will be happier than me.

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I dunno, losing to Stan Humphries and Bobby Ross at home when we should have wiped the field with them was pretty bad. Ditto for the 2001 AFCCG, also at home against another team they should have wiped the field with. Cowher teams had a habit of coming up small in the bigger games.

Yeah but the difference was I could stomach those in the end because I knew we weren't all that great behind center either.

Bluecoat96
09-17-2013, 01:41 PM
You don't know what you're talking about when you claim to know my mind.

Zu, I was referring to the originator of this thread, 60 Minutes, not you. Unless you're joking, of course.

I've never had a beef with you, even though you're Crabby McPoopy-pants today. (Sorry- I have 2 toddlers at home. The word "poopy" is prevalent in my house.)

NJarhead
09-17-2013, 01:45 PM
Zu, I was referring to the originator of this thread, 60 Minutes, not you. Unless you're joking, of course.

I've never had a beef with you, even though you're Crabby McPoopy-pants today. (Sorry- I have 2 toddlers at home. The word "poopy" is prevalent in my house.)

Haha! The funny thing is, I almost used my Wife's "Cranky Pants" on him but decided not to. Now I wish I had.


Zu, have a Snickers. ;-)

zulater
09-17-2013, 01:47 PM
Zu, I was referring to the originator of this thread, 60 Minutes, not you. Unless you're joking, of course.

I've never had a beef with you, even though you're Crabby McPoopy-pants today. (Sorry- I have 2 toddlers at home. The word "poopy" is prevalent in my house.)

Fair enough. I deserve it. :baby:It's what happens when I have a day off after a Steeler loss and have the time to vent.:frusty:

Bluecoat96
09-17-2013, 01:50 PM
Fair enough. I deserve it. :baby:It's what happens when I have a day off after a Steeler loss and have the time to vent.:frusty:

No problem at all. :drink: There will be better days ahead, my friend.

LLT
09-17-2013, 01:52 PM
Fair enough. I deserve it. :baby:It's what happens when I have a day off after a Steeler loss and have the time to vent.:frusty:

For the day...we are changing your forum name to "Crabby McPoopy-pants".

GoSlash27
09-17-2013, 06:13 PM
I think our 2 best guys on D are Ike Taylor and Lawrence Timmons. On offense, Heath Miller and Antonio Brown.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's a sound argument. Finding talent is a part of the job, but it's only a part.
While I'm personally at odds with how Tomlin runs the shop, there is one critical thing to keep in mind: Our success is built on continuity; we don't go chasing coaches out of town when they have a bad year. We don't build short- term "super teams" and then spend the next decade "rebuilding". In short, we are patient and plan to field a playoff- worthy team every year.
Ditching Tomlin would be a gross overreaction and would cause more harm than good IMO.

60_MINUTES
09-17-2013, 07:18 PM
What's there to settle? You don't like Tomlin. You never have. You start multiple threads about the same basic thing....BLAH BLAH BLAH....TOMLIN BAD.....COWHER GOOD!!! ME HATE TOMLIN!!!! There's no debate. You won't listen to one bit of reason either way.


I don't hate Tomlin. I hate losing. Cowher never lost 11 of 13 games. I'm not sure the steelers have lost 11 of 13 since around 1970 and it has pissed me off. It's absolutely pathetic.

Craic
09-17-2013, 07:21 PM
Fair enough. I deserve it. :baby:It's what happens when I have a day off after a Steeler loss and have the time to vent.:frusty:


For the day...we are changing your forum name to "Crabby McPoopy-pants".


I'm disappointed. I checked out his name to find out it is still officially "Zulater." I really wanted to see Crabby McPoopy-pants on the upper right hand corner!

LLT
09-17-2013, 07:23 PM
I'm disappointed. I checked out his name to find out it is still officially "Zulater." I really wanted to see Crabby McPoopy-pants on the upper right hand corner!

LOL!!!!!!!

60_MINUTES
09-17-2013, 07:27 PM
And bottom line is this. We now have two cowher guys on O and its the worst O in the league. If you were to remove Troy Ryan keisel and Ike. It would also be very bad.

There is no one on earth that hopes I'm wrong anymore than I do. But I don't see Tomlin turning this thing around. When u drop 11 of 13 that's alarming guys. Cowher. Noll never done that. So Tomlins achieved something no one has done in 40 years. 40 damn years !!!! That's alarming if u ask me.

NCSteeler
09-17-2013, 07:39 PM
This whole thread is predicated on a unknown, How much does Tomlinson have to do with draft day decisions. We know for several years Cowher had no final say, hat's the apparent reason for the change to Colbert. So how much does the young coach have say on draft day. This thread is pretty much useless unless your debating Colbert vs donahoe. Or Dan vs Art.

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And bottom line is this. We now have two cowher guys on O and its the worst O in the league. If you were to remove Troy Ryan keisel and Ike. It would also be very bad.

There is no one on earth that hopes I'm wrong anymore than I do. But I don't see Tomlin turning this thing around. When u drop 11 of 13 that's alarming guys. Cowher. Noll never done that. So Tomlins achieved something no one has done in 40 years. 40 damn years !!!! That's alarming if u ask me.

At times you can be so damn ignorant. I'm on our side some times, but name a damn defense that would be any good if you remove their top 4 players, that is a dumb argument , period.

Craic
09-17-2013, 07:47 PM
I don't hate Tomlin. I hate losing. Cowher never lost 11 of 13 games. I'm not sure the steelers have lost 11 of 13 since around 1970 and it has pissed me off. It's absolutely pathetic.

This is just funny. Talk about looking back with rose-colored glasses. He lost 11 of 13 games between the 1998/99 season, if you're including preseason (which I have no idea why anyone would, but that's a different topic).

While we're at it, let's not forget that just a couple months later, he starts another wonderful run:

1999 we finished the season with 7 losses in 8 games.
2000 we started the season with 3 losses in 3 games.
That's 10 losses in 11 games. Oh, and if you want to throw in preseason, then it's 13 losses in 17 games (five game preseason).


May I suggest you take your Cowher Spit Goggles off? He was a good coach. I loved him as a coach. But he wasn't a god. He wasn't even able to win a SB with dominant teams until late in his career. In short, what we're seeing right now, is pretty much EXACTLY a repeat of Cowher's tenure, except that, Tomlin has a Superbowl trophy already, and hasn't lost an AFCCG.

LLT
09-17-2013, 07:56 PM
And bottom line is this. We now have two cowher guys on O and its the worst O in the league. If you were to remove Troy Ryan keisel and Ike. It would also be very bad.

There is no one on earth that hopes I'm wrong anymore than I do. But I don't see Tomlin turning this thing around. When u drop 11 of 13 that's alarming guys. Cowher. Noll never done that. So Tomlins achieved something no one has done in 40 years. 40 damn years !!!! That's alarming if u ask me.

If you are going to make "the sky is falling" statements...at least get your facts straight.

Since Preacher made the point about Cowher...let's look at Noll's record.

Noll went 1 -14 his first year as a coach with a 13 game losing streak...then lost the first three games of the next season for 0-16 stretch. He also went had a stretch in from Sept 14, 1988 to Dec 11, 1988 when he went 11 out of 14.

60_MINUTES
09-17-2013, 08:04 PM
I was just watching NFL network had steelers packets superbowl and its become clear to me. Tomlins cancer to team started before I even knew it. Just now I saw the play. Shard mend. Fumble that pretty much cost us the superbowl. Shard. Tomlins guy. And who missed the block? None other than David Johnson. Lol damn his guys cost us that superbowl to. Wow. What a shame. Lol.

LLT
09-17-2013, 08:09 PM
I was just watching NFL network had steelers packets superbowl and its become clear to me. Tomlins cancer to team started before I even knew it. Just now I saw the play. Shard mend. Fumble that pretty much cost us the superbowl. Shard. Tomlins guy. And who missed the block? None other than David Johnson. Lol damn his guys cost us that superbowl to. Wow. What a shame. Lol.

Uh....yea. They were also responsible for 9-11.

60_MINUTES
09-17-2013, 08:11 PM
Look at the end of the day it comes down to this. What will he do moving forward with the majority of his guys. He's got HOF QB. And best D in the NFL last 2 years. It damn sure shouldn't be hard to win. I will be coming up to the game Sunday night. So if I get a chance I will shoot him a few pointers. Maybe we can turn this around.

Like I've said many times is give anything to eat some crow. Or even crow shit. But it doesn't look good to me. I do think he has a chance to prove me wrong with picks such as Jarvis. And Thomas. Maybe bell. All I'm asking is for him to go to the playoffs with this team or next years or whatever. Do it I will be on y'all's side defending him the rest of his life. I guess we shall see.

LLT
09-17-2013, 08:17 PM
I was just watching NFL network had steelers packets superbowl and its become clear to me. Tomlins cancer to team started before I even knew it. Just now I saw the play. Shard mend. Fumble that pretty much cost us the superbowl. Shard. Tomlins guy. And who missed the block? None other than David Johnson. Lol damn his guys cost us that superbowl to. Wow. What a shame. Lol.

Of course it was THAT play.

Not the fact that Jordy Nelson beat William Gay for the first TD.....or that Roethlisberger threw an interception to Collins who ran it down the sideline for a score....or that Polamalu missed a tackle for a huge gain then let Jennings get behind him for a 21 yard TD.

steelreserve
09-17-2013, 08:17 PM
As I said in the other thread when it was becoming a Cowher/Tomlin debate - our player development since Cowher left has been essentially zero, especially along the lines. With basically every single player we've drafted since 2007, they're either good right away, or they never get good enough to make any impact. Keenan Lewis may be the one exception I can think of. It may not even be that we're drafting that badly; it may be that we have a bunch of #1 and #2 picks that are left to just sort of drift along and so they never develop into the kinds of players they ought to be. Guys like Adams, Hood ... maybe they really are better than that. That's one thing I think Cowher's regime did better. Would I want his coaching style and his offense on this team? Probably not. But for franchise stability long-term, maybe he knew a thing or two.

jb500ex
09-17-2013, 08:20 PM
Timmons and jones great? You guys are to much that's the problem with our team a guy can make one good play a game you guys love it but ignore the fact he gets owned the rest if the game. Timmons is a a average ilb. And no Ed was bad last night, that's right bad watch the tape he can't rush the passer that's wht he was drafted for. He gets owned in the run game yeah he made one nice tackle on defense and a couple on special teams. Good thing our 1 st rounder is good on special teams. Timmons just like the first 4 games last year has been invisible other than when he's getting run over or ocked into the other teams Bench. Those two guys are very weak soft players

60_MINUTES
09-17-2013, 08:26 PM
As I said in the other thread when it was becoming a Cowher/Tomlin debate - our player development since Cowher left has been essentially zero, especially along the lines. With basically every single player we've drafted since 2007, they're either good right away, or they never get good enough to make any impact. Keenan Lewis may be the one exception I can think of. It may not even be that we're drafting that badly; it may be that we have a bunch of #1 and #2 picks that are left to just sort of drift along and so they never develop into the kinds of players they ought to be. Guys like Adams, Hood ... maybe they really are better than that. That's one thing I think Cowher's regime did better. Would I want his coaching style and his offense on this team? Probably not. But for franchise stability long-term, maybe he knew a thing or two.



Agree 100 percent. It maybe the drafts are fair but the development sucks. All I know is we are doing something wrong to lose this bad , and most disturbing is how many years we have sucked up front. When a guy can walk off street and play as well as what is suppose to be your best O linemen. That indicates a problem.

Shoes
09-17-2013, 08:53 PM
The sad part of this matter is the look on the players faces and eyes. It's the same confused look as last year........and the same comments. Repeated over and over again. No one seem to have answer and no one seems to have any real direction or vision. Ben said post game, *we didn't have much of a run game going, for what ever reason* This is mainly a leadership problem, Tomlin and the FO.

Seven
09-17-2013, 09:14 PM
This thread is garbage. I love Coach Cowher, but Mike Tomlin is a premiere head coach in this league and the personnel decisions he has contributed to while here have been excellent. If you can't look at the roster and see his influence you're dull. Now shut the fuck up.

LLT
09-17-2013, 10:16 PM
This thread is garbage. I love Coach Cowher, but Mike Tomlin is a premiere head coach in this league and the personnel decisions he has contributed to while here have been excellent. If you can't look at the roster and see his influence you're dull. Now shut the fuck up.

Understand your frustration...but the last part is unnecessary. Lets tone down the rhetoric.

Craic
09-17-2013, 11:01 PM
Understand your frustration...but the last part is unnecessary. Lets tone down the rhetoric.

Shut the fornication up? :huh:

:chuckle:

60_MINUTES
09-17-2013, 11:09 PM
This thread is garbage. I love Coach Cowher, but Mike Tomlin is a premiere head coach in this league and the personnel decisions he has contributed to while here have been excellent. If you can't look at the roster and see his influence you're dull. Now shut the fuck up.


Lol I just went to your page and saw your age. It's no wonder you have the feelings you do. You were a baby when cowher was doing his thing. What 16 when he left ? Lol. Tough guy. Don't hurt no body boy wonder .

On a real note if u don't like the post don't comment on it.

LLT
09-17-2013, 11:51 PM
Lol I just went to your page and saw your age. It's no wonder you have the feelings you do. You were a baby when cowher was doing his thing. What 16 when he left ? Lol. Tough guy. Don't hurt no body boy wonder .

On a real note if u don't like the post don't comment on it.

On a REAL note...cut back on the personal attacks. Consider this a REAL warning. Someone who posts facts that are completely inaccurate has no place in callng anyone else out.

60_MINUTES
09-18-2013, 12:00 AM
On a REAL note...cut back on the personal attacks. Consider this a REAL warning. Someone who posts facts that are completely inaccurate has no place in callng anyone else out.


Im quite sure calling someone boy wonder is not near as personal as telling someone to shut the fuck up. Pretty sure I haven't personally attacked anyone. I along with many others doesn't think we have a very good coach. That's what the thread is about. Best players on the team were already here Etc. I can't help it the young man didn't like the comment . Lets hope we start winning and Tomlin shuts me up. Then I'm sure we will all get along.

LLT
09-18-2013, 12:14 AM
Im quite sure calling someone boy wonder is not near as personal as telling someone to shut the fuck up. Pretty sure I haven't personally attacked anyone. I along with many others doesn't think we have a very good coach. That's what the thread is about. Best players on the team were already here Etc. I can't help it the young man didn't like the comment . Lets hope we start winning and Tomlin shuts me up. Then I'm sure we will all get along.

I warned him about what he said...and understand...its not your decision as to what is allowed and what is not. Calling someone a baby and wonderboy are most definitely personal attacks.

And as I said...get YOUR facts straight before you start condemning anyone else.

60_MINUTES
09-18-2013, 12:22 AM
I warned him about what he said...and understand...its not your decision as to what is allowed and what is not. Calling someone a baby and wonderboy are most definitely personal attacks.

And as I said...get YOUR facts straight before you start condemning anyone else.


I thought I was posting facts. I'm a fact finder. That's what I do for a living. I will research better. I have to get paid. Can't afford to miss the facts. In a fact finding career.

Thanks for helping me out. In the mean time I'm hoping my boy mr sword creek bails Tomlin out this year and makes a fool of me. If anyone can make a fool of me it's Heath miller. So hearing to him coming back and helping to keep threads like this off the board.

The more cowher guys we can get back the better shot we have at Tomlin making playoffs. Lol. Glad to have sword head back. 24649 is about to take over guys. See u there

LLT
09-18-2013, 12:25 AM
I thought I was posting facts. I'm a fact finder. That's what I do for a living. I will research better. I have to get paid. Can't afford to miss the facts. In a fact finding career.

Thanks for helping me out. In the mean time I'm hoping my boy mr sword creek bails Tomlin out this year and makes a fool of me. If anyone can make a fool of me it's Heath miller. So hearing to him coming back and helping to keep threads like this off the board.

The more cowher guys we can get back the better shot we have at Tomlin making playoffs. Lol. Glad to have sword head back. 24649 is about to take over guys. See u there

Give it time. Miller...Cortez...Bell....They cant do anything but help this team out.

Craic
09-18-2013, 12:26 AM
Give it time. Miller...Cortez...Bell....They cant do anything but help this team out.

We can only hope.

LLT
09-18-2013, 12:37 AM
We can only hope.

Right now we are at zero wins...the only thing we CAN do is get better.

60_MINUTES
09-18-2013, 12:38 AM
I agree. I'm not so sure these guys are all buying into the scheme and direction team turned. But the guys believe in each other. The vets are gonna lean on each other and they may just turn this thing around a bit come Sunday night. Heath may be a bit rusty and could look a bit tentative. But his presence alone will lift the guys. I think good things can happen. But I'm not convinced that will be led by Tomlin. I won't have any problem giving him credit though if it does happen. Just win some damn games. Man.

LLT
09-18-2013, 12:43 AM
I agree. I'm not so sure these guys are all buying into the scheme and direction team turned. But the guys believe in each other. The vets are gonna lean on each other and they may just turn this thing around a bit come Sunday night. Heath may be a bit rusty and could look a bit tentative. But his presence alone will lift the guys. I think good things can happen. But I'm not convinced that will be led by Tomlin. I won't have any problem giving him credit though if it does happen. Just win some damn games. Man.

Ive stated before that I sometimes worry that Tomlin isnt on the same page as the FO. That being said...I still have hope that we can turn it around sooner than later.

Craic
09-18-2013, 02:43 AM
Right now we are at zero wins...the only thing we CAN do is get better.

LLT, I'm a Seattle Mariners fan. Trust me, there's a whole lot more we can do to get worse, too! I've watched it for the last decade in my baseball team. :nervous:

Master Blaster
09-18-2013, 07:01 AM
That's meaningless. Cowher lost with his own guys his last year. Tomlin has already matched Cowher's success in a shorter span. You also have to factor that we got those players after crap years UNDER COWHER (picking higher in the draft). Tomlin, thankfully hasn't had the opportunity to pick higher in the draft until this past year and we got what is seemingly a gem in Jarvis Jones. Hopefully another in Le'veon Bell and yet another in Shamarko Thomas.

Anyway, I think your point is meaningless.
Nonsense. Cowher's record makes your point null and void. He has one of the best records of any coach in the free agent era. From 1992 until 2004 he had one of the most dominant and consistent running games in the league, thanks to Bettis. The only thing Cowher lacked early on in his Steelers career, in order to win multiple Super Bowls, was Ben.

tube517
09-18-2013, 08:53 AM
Ive stated before that I sometimes worry that Tomlin isnt on the same page as the FO. That being said...I still have hope that we can turn it around sooner than later.

Agree with this.

Arians/Haley.....Dwyer were they Tomlins decision?

Sent from my SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 4

Dwinsgames
09-18-2013, 12:40 PM
LLT, I'm a Seattle Mariners fan. Trust me, there's a whole lot more we can do to get worse, too! I've watched it for the last decade in my baseball team. :nervous:


You are Preaching to the Choir Preach ... many of us are Pirate fans and have not seen wining baseball ( till now ) since the George H.W. Bush administration left office and Andy Van Slyke roamed the outfield with Barry Bonds , Jay Bell manned SS

Bob Walk, Tim Wakefield and Doug Drabek where our best Pitchers the closer was Stan Belinda .....

these guys are all collecting social security now

NJarhead
09-18-2013, 01:10 PM
Nonsense. Cowher's record makes your point null and void. He has one of the best records of any coach in the free agent era. From 1992 until 2004 he had one of the most dominant and consistent running games in the league, thanks to Bettis. The only thing Cowher lacked early on in his Steelers career, in order to win multiple Super Bowls, was Ben.

His success was winning one SB and one AFCCG at home. Tomlin's done that already. That was my point. And Cowher DID lose with his own guys. My point is valid if you're smart enough to know what the point is.

Dwinsgames
09-18-2013, 02:16 PM
His success was winning one SB and one AFCCG at home. Tomlin's done that already. That was my point. And Cowher DID lose with his own guys. My point is valid if you're smart enough to know what the point is.


Tomlins players for the most part are softer , less hard nosed football players ... is that a defining difference ?

I think it can be esp in our division , Cowher was a different kind of motivator , he did so with yelling and screaming and spitting a tough persona ...

Tomlin does so with more articulate speaking and nifty catch phrases , not sure it has the same effect as someone spitting in your face ...

is this the difference ? who the hell knows ...

but impart when I say I miss the chin I miss the persona of the football team ... Hard Nosed in your face tough guys who would out physical you at every turn , who would outwork you to make up for their lessor athletic ability , who had a mindset to not give up or give in .... I think Cowher fit those guys and those guys fit Cowher and the city of Pittsburgh , lunch pal toting tough guys ..this team is more pussified IMO than any Cowher team and has to be handled with kid gloves it is to " feelings oriented " than testosterone oriented ....

Hey I could be wrong but that is what I get from watching and listening to these guys

Master Blaster
09-18-2013, 02:22 PM
His success was winning one SB and one AFCCG at home. Tomlin's done that already. That was my point. And Cowher DID lose with his own guys. My point is valid if you're smart enough to know what the point is.
His record of winning speaks for itself. I'm plenty smart enough to understand a point as long as the author is smart enough to know how to convey their point without the need to use a decoder.

ALLD
09-18-2013, 02:29 PM
I remember being on the other forum in 1981 when everybody was complaining about Noll losing all the players.

Dwinsgames
09-18-2013, 02:43 PM
I remember being on the other forum in 1981 when everybody was complaining about Noll losing all the players.



a forum in 1981 ?

I never heard of the internet prior to the early 1990's

Master Blaster
09-18-2013, 02:52 PM
a forum in 1981 ?

I never heard of the internet prior to the early 1990's
:old: You're right. There was no Internet for the masses prior to the early nineties.

Craic
09-18-2013, 02:53 PM
His record of winning speaks for itself. I'm plenty smart enough to understand a point as long as the author is smart enough to know how to convey their point without the need to use a decoder.

Well, if winning records speak for themselves....

Bill Cowher, overall winning percentage in the regular season: .623 Playoffs: .571
Mike Tomlin, overall winning percentage in the regular season: .649 Playoffs, .625

Oh, and Cowher's winning percentage for his first six years and three games of his seventh year: .626 STILL under Tomlin's record. And he inherited a team with Rod Woodson, Greg Lloyd, Carnell Lake, Darren Perry, Joel Steed, Barry Foster, Levon Kirkland, Merril Hoge, Ernie Mills, etc. Yeah, no slouch team there by any means.

I guess what you're saying is that Cowher's first SB appearance was because of Chuck Noll, and once he started losing Noll's guys, he became a losing coach for three years. Right? Since the records are almost the exact same, and the years in the league before the downturn of the team seems to be coming up the exact same as well.

On top of all that, I'm constantly amazed at how many people forget that this was PLANNED by the front office. Yes, PLANNED. They CHOSE to extend a SB winning team, knowing that there would be some ugly, down years thereafter when they had to deal with the consequences. Absolutely ignoring that and expecting this team to operate as if that was never the case is what so many mean when they say this fanbase is spoiled. It's always now, now, now. Never mind what happened in the past, or what decisions led here, unless it lets us point fingers at coaches we dislike because they don't spit enough or yell enough.

zulater
09-18-2013, 03:08 PM
Wonder how many games Tomlin would have won with Neil O'Donnell, and Kordell Stewart at qb?

Craic
09-18-2013, 03:13 PM
Wonder how many games Tomlin would have won with Neil O'Donnell, and Kordell Stewart at qb?

With Barry Foster and Jerome Bettis as the running backs? My guess is about the same.

- - - Updated - - -


I remember being on the other forum in 1981 when everybody was complaining about Noll losing all the players.

Now THAT was funny, a little mean, but still hilarious.

Master Blaster
09-18-2013, 03:26 PM
Well, if winning records speak for themselves....

Bill Cowher, overall winning percentage in the regular season: .623 Playoffs: .571
Mike Tomlin, overall winning percentage in the regular season: .649 Playoffs, .625

Oh, and Cowher's winning percentage for his first six years and three games of his seventh year: .626 STILL under Tomlin's record. And he inherited a team with Rod Woodson, Greg Lloyd, Carnell Lake, Darren Perry, Joel Steed, Barry Foster, Levon Kirkland, Merril Hoge, Ernie Mills, etc. Yeah, no slouch team there by any means.

I guess what you're saying is that Cowher's first SB appearance was because of Chuck Noll, and once he started losing Noll's guys, he became a losing coach for three years. Right? Since the records are almost the exact same, and the years in the league before the downturn of the team seems to be coming up the exact same as well.

On top of all that, I'm constantly amazed at how many people forget that this was PLANNED by the front office. Yes, PLANNED. They CHOSE to extend a SB winning team, knowing that there would be some ugly, down years thereafter when they had to deal with the consequences. Absolutely ignoring that and expecting this team to operate as if that was never the case is what so many mean when they say this fanbase is spoiled. It's always now, now, now. Never mind what happened in the past, or what decisions led here, unless it lets us point fingers at coaches we dislike because they don't spit enough or yell enough.
Bringing up Noll is moot since he never had to deal with free agency. Furthermore, Noll's down years extended from 1981 until 1992 so to dismiss that time frame is disingenuous. In that time span he lost far more than he won because he could never achieve the same success in the draft that he did in the early '70's. By the time 1992 rolled around Noll had nothing left. It was time to move on. When Cowher was hired he had to deal with the aftermath of Noll's eleven years of mostly bad drafts and bad teams. He also had to deal with the advent of the newly installed free agency. Therefore, unlike Cowher, Tomlin began his Steelers head coaching career with an already established, championship caliber team. Now that the vast majority of Cowher's championship level players are gone we are seeing the results of his successor's drafts.

zulater
09-18-2013, 06:52 PM
With Barry Foster and Jerome Bettis as the running backs? My guess is about the same.

.


Really, you aren't old enough to know how off base that point is?

Barry Foster was a nothing when Cowher took over the Steelers. A 5th round draft choice from the year before who's only notable moment as a rookie was downing a kickoff inside his own 5 against the Niners with no one within 20 yards of him. In his first start for Cowher in 92 he fumbled 3 times. If Tomlin had been in charge Foster gets chained to the bench for the rest of the season, gets cut the next summer and no one ever hears of him as a Steeler.

As for Bettis, the Steelers had to trade for him. He had a great rookie year, and slumped badly as a sophomore , and was thought by the Rams to be out of shape and poorly motivated. That Cowher identified Bettis as a player who would fit his system perfectly was a case of making your own fortune. Nothing was given to him with either of these backs. It could be fairly said that Cowher made them more thsn either of them made him.

Mojouw
09-18-2013, 07:11 PM
Really, you aren't old enough to know how off base that point is?

Barry Foster was a nothing when Cowher took over the Steelers. A 5th round draft choice from the year before who's only notable moment as a rookie was downing a kickoff inside his own 5 against the Niners with no one within 20 yards of him. In his first start for Cowher in 92 he fumbled 3 times. If Tomlin had been in charge Foster gets chained to the bench for the rest of the season, gets cut the next summer and no one ever hears of him as a Steeler.

As for Bettis, the Steelers had to trade for him. He had a great rookie year, and slumped badly as a sophomore , and was thought by the Rams to be out of shape and poorly motivated. That Cowher identified Bettis as a player who would fit his system perfectly was a case of making your own fortune. Nothing was given to him with either of these backs. It could be fairly said that Cowher made them more thsn either of them made him.

And Cowher kept the following players on the bench for several years despite them being more intriguing than his veteran guys:

Hines Ward
Courtney Hawkins
Jason Gildon
Deshae Townsend

That is just off the top of my head with no research. Plus Cowher kinda had to play Foster, I don't remember there being very many other backs on the roster. Just because the Rams were stupid and could not see how to use Jerome Bettis doesn't make Cowher a player guru either. I remember at the time most felt the trade was highway robbery on the Steelers part.

Look, I'm not saying that Cowher wasn't a good or even great coach, but to keep putting him out there as an infallible cure-all to this team's or any others woes is to only remember the good things about the past and not all of it...

Craic
09-18-2013, 07:14 PM
Bringing up Noll is moot since he never had to deal with free agency. Furthermore, Noll's down years extended from 1981 until 1992 so to dismiss that time frame is disingenuous. In that time span he lost far more than he won because he could never achieve the same success in the draft that he did in the early '70's. By the time 1992 rolled around Noll had nothing left. It was time to move on. When Cowher was hired he had to deal with the aftermath of Noll's eleven years of mostly bad drafts and bad teams. He also had to deal with the advent of the newly installed free agency. Therefore, unlike Cowher, Tomlin began his Steelers head coaching career with an already established, championship caliber team. Now that the vast majority of Cowher's championship level players are gone we are seeing the results of his successor's drafts.

all around the mulberry bush . . .

Um, no. Just no. I love how you completely ignore the fact that I pointed out numerous players that had stellar NFL careers that was that Steelers team when Cowher took over. And as for Cowher to Tomlin, Tomlin inherited a locker room that was in disarray. Peezy couldn't keep his mouth shut and was ousted. Big Red stayed on only to cause absolute disarray on the line... Yeah, he literally contradicted the coaches as soon as they got out on the field and demanded they do it his way. Tomlin was left with an old OL and no backups to speak of, and except for Hines Ward, no wide receivers that could actually catch the ball (Santonio Holmes was currently hovering around a 57% reception rate). Cowher also mismanaged the most important position on the field. QB. He pretty much held a disdain for it and preferred to run the ball right into an AFCCG loss every other year. In fact, the only reason we won the SB that last year was because the team got hot at the right time. They were NOT the best team of the year that year. They also got lucky that they didn't have to face the Patriots, since the Patriots owned Cowher.

I love the guy, but come on, let's get back to reality here.

Oh, and results of successive drafts? Please then, explain 1998, 99, and 2000 for me. If what we're seeing is the result of Tomlin's drafts, then those years were the results of Cowher's drafts, especially since they're coming at the EXACT same point in the coaches career with the team.

Dwinsgames
09-18-2013, 07:25 PM
all around the mulberry bush . . .

Um, no. Just no. I love how you completely ignore the fact that I pointed out numerous players that had stellar NFL careers that was that Steelers team when Cowher took over. And as for Cowher to Tomlin, Tomlin inherited a locker room that was in disarray. Peezy couldn't keep his mouth shut and was ousted. Big Red stayed on only to cause absolute disarray on the line... Yeah, he literally contradicted the coaches as soon as they got out on the field and demanded they do it his way. Tomlin was left with an old OL and no backups to speak of, and except for Hines Ward, no wide receivers that could actually catch the ball (Santonio Holmes was currently hovering around a 57% reception rate). Cowher also mismanaged the most important position on the field. QB. He pretty much held a disdain for it and preferred to run the ball right into an AFCCG loss every other year. In fact, the only reason we won the SB that last year was because the team got hot at the right time. They were NOT the best team of the year that year. They also got lucky that they didn't have to face the Patriots, since the Patriots owned Cowher.

I love the guy, but come on, let's get back to reality here.

Oh, and results of successive drafts? Please then, explain 1998, 99, and 2000 for me. If what we're seeing is the result of Tomlin's drafts, then those years were the results of Cowher's drafts, especially since they're coming at the EXACT same point in the coaches career with the team.


lots of teams win the SB by getting hot at the right time ....

The last Packers SB win against us , both the Giant SB wins over the Pats ... clearly none of those teams where the best teams of those years either ... winning the SB is almost always getting hot at the right time in this era ... Unlike 30 years ago where the home field advantage throughout the playoffs actually meant something

zulater
09-18-2013, 07:26 PM
And Cowher kept the following players on the bench for several years despite them being more intriguing than his veteran guys:

Hines Ward
Courtney Hawkins
Jason Gildon
Deshae Townsend

That is just off the top of my head with no research. Plus Cowher kinda had to play Foster, I don't remember there being very many other backs on the roster. Just because the Rams were stupid and could not see how to use Jerome Bettis doesn't make Cowher a player guru either. I remember at the time most felt the trade was highway robbery on the Steelers part.

Look, I'm not saying that Cowher wasn't a good or even great coach, but to keep putting him out there as an infallible cure-all to this team's or any others woes is to only remember the good things about the past and not all of it...

Hines Ward was the Steelers leading receiver from his 2nd season on. Gildon sat behind Kevin Greene, how was that a mistake? DeShea probably should have started a year before he did. And Courtney Hawkins was never much of anything.

As for Foster there was nothing he did in his rookie year that identified him as a back you could build your team around.

And I'm not trying to make Cowher out as infallible. But he played the cards he was dealt pretty damn good most of the time.

For the first time in Tomlin's career he's been dealt a poor hand. It's going to be interesting to see how he plays his way out of it. Sorry to say but he's not inspiring great confidence in me at the moment.

Craic
09-18-2013, 07:33 PM
lots of teams win the SB by getting hot at the right time ....

The last Packers SB win against us , both the Giant SB wins over the Pats ... clearly none of those teams where the best teams of those years either ... winning the SB is almost always getting hot at the right time in this era ... Unlike 30 years ago where the home field advantage throughout the playoffs actually meant something

You're right, but that makes my point in the discussion. Mainly, that the team that was handed off to Tomlin wasn't the world-crush dog-kicking monsters of death a few around here are making them out to be.

Dwinsgames
09-18-2013, 07:35 PM
And Cowher kept the following players on the bench for several years despite them being more intriguing than his veteran guys:

Hines Ward
Courtney Hawkins
Jason Gildon
Deshae Townsend

That is just off the top of my head with no research. Plus Cowher kinda had to play Foster, I don't remember there being very many other backs on the roster. Just because the Rams were stupid and could not see how to use Jerome Bettis doesn't make Cowher a player guru either. I remember at the time most felt the trade was highway robbery on the Steelers part.

Look, I'm not saying that Cowher wasn't a good or even great coach, but to keep putting him out there as an infallible cure-all to this team's or any others woes is to only remember the good things about the past and not all of it...


might wanna check those players again .... Ward was starter his second year in the league and had 61 catches and 7 TDs http://www.nfl.com/player/hinesward/2503532/careerstats

Hawkins was a starter in his rookie year ( 5 games ) 14 starts his 3rd season ( and most catches as a pro ) http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HawkCo00.htm

Gildon a starter in year 3 ( normal for a DE convert to OLB in the 3-4 ) http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GildJa00.htm


Townsend had 4 starts his second year in the league ....

do not see how any of these guys " wasted away on the bench " to start their careers

Craic
09-18-2013, 07:58 PM
Hines Ward was the Steelers leading receiver from his 2nd season on. Gildon sat behind Kevin Greene, how was that a mistake? DeShea probably should have started a year before he did. And Courtney Hawkins was never much of anything.

As for Foster there was nothing he did in his rookie year that identified him as a back you could build your team around.

And I'm not trying to make Cowher out as infallible. But he played the cards he was dealt pretty damn good most of the time.

For the first time in Tomlin's career he's been dealt a poor hand. It's going to be interesting to see how he plays his way out of it. Sorry to say but he's not inspiring great confidence in me at the moment.

The only reason we ended up with Jerome Bettis was because we had a RB that couldn't stay away from the marijuana. It's not like Cowher was out searching for a RB because he had some foreknowledge that we'd needed someone better. He had Bettis drop in his lap.

And as for players sitting on the bench: Ben was slated to sit on the bench that entire first year, and my guess is probably at least part of the second. Only an injury changed that. Peezy, who was not at the top of his game anymore was still starting over James Harrison who had shown that he could play the game, already. And as I keep saying, we were left no lineman of talent to step in and play for the old guys on the line. THAT is what's still hurting us, because right now, what we should have is mid-career guys that were trained under the coaches those last two years now playing. But none of them were good enough to make it. None! So the old guys left and we had to make due with sub-par lineman thanks to our O line coach and the rest of the staff in the mid-90s, and we're still suffering. We couldn't just trade picks and go get a bunch of guys either, because we also needed to restock the LBs and DL, not to mention WRs so we could get WRs that could actually catch the ball (again, outside of Ward).

The one thing that Cowher did absolutely fantastic was when he was willing to say "Screw this" and get back to basics in 2004. That, plus the hurricane in Miami which the team all said really made them bond together for some reason, plus the onset of Ben, set that core of a team on a great path for the next few years.

Master Blaster
09-18-2013, 08:05 PM
all around the mulberry bush . . .

Um, no. Just no. I love how you completely ignore the fact that I pointed out numerous players that had stellar NFL careers that was that Steelers team when Cowher took over. And as for Cowher to Tomlin, Tomlin inherited a locker room that was in disarray. Peezy couldn't keep his mouth shut and was ousted. Big Red stayed on only to cause absolute disarray on the line... Yeah, he literally contradicted the coaches as soon as they got out on the field and demanded they do it his way. Tomlin was left with an old OL and no backups to speak of, and except for Hines Ward, no wide receivers that could actually catch the ball (Santonio Holmes was currently hovering around a 57% reception rate). Cowher also mismanaged the most important position on the field. QB. He pretty much held a disdain for it and preferred to run the ball right into an AFCCG loss every other year. In fact, the only reason we won the SB that last year was because the team got hot at the right time. They were NOT the best team of the year that year. They also got lucky that they didn't have to face the Patriots, since the Patriots owned Cowher.

I love the guy, but come on, let's get back to reality here.
I didn't ignore anything. I love how you spew inane nonsense and expect others to not rub your face in your arrogant BS.
To say that Tomlin inherited a locker room that was in disarray is based on your opinion and not facts.

You have the gall to spew baseless and unsubstantiated nonsense and act as though you're such an authority when it's obvious your full of hot air. Nothing that you said is based in reality, but rather, on your fertile and overactive imagination.

You said Porter was released because he couldn't keep his mouth shut. Where was it ever announced that he was released for that reason? He was not retained because he was no longer the player he once was. His big mouth didn't help his cause, but it was not the sole reason why he wasn't retained.

You then go on and say that Faneca stayed on only to cause disarray on the line. Where do you come up with this ridiculous nonsense? That is not only patently ridiculous, but it's a bald faced lie. The fact is Faneca didn't like change. He didn't like having a rookie, Ben, as his starting QB, but that rookie won more games in his first season than any other rookie QB in league history. He was also more successful than any QB Faneca Played with. He also didn't like losing Cowher, Wiz and Grimm either, but for you to sit there and spew that inane BS about him intentionally staying on to cause disarray on the line proves that you have zero credibility.

The Patriots owned Cowher because they owned videos of his plays. Even Hines Ward said after losing to them in a AFCCG that they knew what plays the Steelers were calling before the Steelers called them.

Dwinsgames
09-18-2013, 08:08 PM
And as for players sitting on the bench: Ben was slated to sit on the bench that entire first year, and my guess is probably at least part of the second. Only an injury changed that..

until Ben was successful Rookies RARELY started at QB , that all changed once Ben was successful



Peezy, who was not at the top of his game anymore was still starting over James Harrison who had shown that he could play the game

Peezy went on to have the best season of his career AFTER we sent him packing so to say he was washed up ( in so many words ) simply is incorrect he put up 38 more sacks as a member of the Dolphins before hanging em up 17.5 in one season so washed up he was not ....

Master Blaster
09-18-2013, 08:19 PM
until Ben was successful Rookies RARELY started at QB , that all changed once Ben was successful




Peezy went on to have the best season of his career AFTER we sent him packing so to say he was washed up ( in so many words ) simply is incorrect he put up 38 more sacks as a member of the Dolphins before hanging em up 17.5 in one season so washed up he was not ....
Actually it all changed when Maddox got hurt in the Titan's game.

Joey's sack numbers were also aided by garbage sacks. He was still hampered by a bad knee and it was that knee that was why he was let go by the Steelers. It also sidelined him for quite a few games while with the Dolphins.

Mojouw
09-18-2013, 09:32 PM
might wanna check those players again .... Ward was starter his second year in the league and had 61 catches and 7 TDs http://www.nfl.com/player/hinesward/2503532/careerstats

Hawkins was a starter in his rookie year ( 5 games ) 14 starts his 3rd season ( and most catches as a pro ) http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HawkCo00.htm

Gildon a starter in year 3 ( normal for a DE convert to OLB in the 3-4 ) http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GildJa00.htm


Townsend had 4 starts his second year in the league ....

do not see how any of these guys " wasted away on the bench " to start their careers

Yeah. I should've looked more up before I posted. I just seem to remember that there were several players that were "stuck" behind guys for a bit. I feel like Townsend in particular played behind guys like Washington and Scott for a bit too long. Maybe it wasn't Ward, but there was a receiver during Cowher's tenure that was used in the slot etc before being elevated to a starter that in hindsight shouldn't have taken so long. I'm not trying to say that Cowher was terrible or anything, but he, like any coach (Tomlin) was loyal to "his guys" and slow to change them out for an unknown quantity.

Dwinsgames
09-18-2013, 10:25 PM
Yeah. I should've looked more up before I posted. I just seem to remember that there were several players that were "stuck" behind guys for a bit. I feel like Townsend in particular played behind guys like Washington and Scott for a bit too long. Maybe it wasn't Ward, but there was a receiver during Cowher's tenure that was used in the slot etc before being elevated to a starter that in hindsight shouldn't have taken so long. I'm not trying to say that Cowher was terrible or anything, but he, like any coach (Tomlin) was loyal to "his guys" and slow to change them out for an unknown quantity.


Chris Hope would have been a good example ....

another example was the cutting of Rob Bironas ( two or three times ) to keep skippy ( quadzilla ) who was not only mentally unstable but incapable of decent kickoffs ...a couple years later skippy out of the league and Bironas one of the better kickers in the game

tube517
09-18-2013, 10:32 PM
Yeah. I should've looked more up before I posted. I just seem to remember that there were several players that were "stuck" behind guys for a bit. I feel like Townsend in particular played behind guys like Washington and Scott for a bit too long. Maybe it wasn't Ward, but there was a receiver during Cowher's tenure that was used in the slot etc before being elevated to a starter that in hindsight shouldn't have taken so long. I'm not trying to say that Cowher was terrible or anything, but he, like any coach (Tomlin) was loyal to "his guys" and slow to change them out for an unknown quantity.

Andre Hastings or Ernie Mills, maybe?

Craic
09-18-2013, 11:08 PM
Peezy went on to have the best season of his career AFTER we sent him packing so to say he was washed up ( in so many words ) simply is incorrect he put up 38 more sacks as a member of the Dolphins before hanging em up 17.5 in one season so washed up he was not ....[/QUOTE]

Not so much, I think. He had one good year with Miami, putting up 17 and a half sacks and and four forced fumbles (which means half those sacks your talking about came in one year). Outside of that year, however, he wasn't that valuable to his team. For these kinds of discussions, I like the "Approximate Value" method of assessing seasons at this site (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PortJo00.htm)to help put things in perspective. While I'll be the first to admit that statistics never tell the whole story, the fact is that he basically, except for that one season, was half the player he was with the Steelers.

60_MINUTES
09-18-2013, 11:39 PM
Some great comments. Seems I'm not alone as many would have suggested a couple days ago. I've have noticed one thing. Seems some of these kids we are debating with we're barley teenagers or younger during cowhers years. It shows in some cases. How absolutely lost they are on comparisons.

Anyway someone posted we are softer now and that's spot on. The main difference in the steelers now and then is simple. Now. Tomlin wants guys on the team like mike Wallace. Then cowher wanted guys like Hines ward. Fullbacks Tomlin wanted Carrie Davis he was suppose to be some kind of fast hybrid Fullback aka. Soft. Cowher had John Whitman. And Jo neck KREIDER. Those guys would block their mommas illegal if need be.


Bottom line we have a bunch of kids on team and Tomlin is one of them. James Harrison said it best on mon night when asked to describe mike. James said he was one of us. That IMO is not how u coach a football team. It's the same as a mom dressing and acting like her teenage daughter. It might be cute looking but she is a piss poor parent.

U have to lead these guys and they have to play in fear of letting u down. Bill parcels style and many more. Doesn't mean they won't respect u or even love u when it's over.

NJarhead
09-19-2013, 06:13 AM
His record of winning speaks for itself. I'm plenty smart enough to understand a point as long as the author is smart enough to know how to convey their point without the need to use a decoder.

Are you sure?

NJarhead
09-19-2013, 06:22 AM
Actually it all changed when Maddox got hurt in the Titan's game.
Joey's sack numbers were also aided by garbage sacks. He was still hampered by a bad knee and it was that knee that was why he was let go by the Steelers. It also sidelined him for quite a few games while with the Dolphins.

Maddox got hurt in week 2 in Baltimore.

zulater
09-19-2013, 06:53 AM
Maddox got hurt in week 2 in Baltimore.

In a sense it did all change when Maddox got the spinal concussion in Tennessee. Because he was never the same player again after that. Not that that's necessarily pertinent to the topic at hand?

NJarhead
09-19-2013, 07:03 AM
In a sense it did all change when Maddox got the spinal concussion in Tennessee. Because he was never the same player again after that. Not that that's necessarily pertinent to the topic at hand?

You're right. The topic's kind of dumb though too. I do find it comical how the thread's author split us up into "Cowher People" and "Tomlin People" though. Slight flaw in the logic there.

zulater
09-19-2013, 08:11 AM
You're right. The topic's kind of dumb though too. I do find it comical how the thread's author split us up into "Cowher People" and "Tomlin People" though. Slight flaw in the logic there.

Threads often go off in a variety of directions. It doesn't bother me when it does.

Sort of going on to original topic. I think Tomlin is a good coach, but he might be too nice a guy at times and he also sends out mixed messages. All I know is that he needs to take charge now with this team. If he has to step on Haley's toes to do so, and Todd gets hurt feeling then the hell with Todd.

The one thing with Cowher is he was an asshole to all of his coaches. None were ever comfortable, I don't think he played favorites with his coaching staff. They were all beneath him and would have to pay hell when things went poorly for their unit.

NJarhead
09-19-2013, 08:17 AM
Threads often go off in a variety of directions. It doesn't bother me when it does.

Sort of going on to original topic. I think Tomlin is a good coach, but he might be too nice a guy at times and he also sends out mixed messages. All I know is that he needs to take charge now with this team. If he has to step on Haley's toes to do so, and Todd gets hurt feeling then the hell with Todd.

The one thing with Cowher is he was an asshole to all of his coaches. None were ever comfortable, I don't think he played favorites with his coaching staff. They were all beneath him and would have to pay hell when things went poorly for their unit.

James Harrison painted a different picture of Cowher (game day Cowher was when the chin and spittle came out). I think Tomlin gets his message across pretty clearly without yelling and spitting. I respect that he can remain calm in doing so.

I loved Bill Cowher too. In fact, our coaching legacy, to me, is a matter of great pride and that includes Coach Tomlin.

Steeldude
09-19-2013, 08:21 AM
How is the team doing with less of Cowher's players on it?

60_MINUTES
09-19-2013, 11:40 AM
Threads often go off in a variety of directions. It doesn't bother me when it does.

Sort of going on to original topic. I think Tomlin is a good coach, but he might be too nice a guy at times and he also sends out mixed messages. All I know is that he needs to take charge now with this team. If he has to step on Haley's toes to do so, and Todd gets hurt feeling then the hell with Todd.

The one thing with Cowher is he was an asshole to all of his coaches. None were ever comfortable, I don't think he played favorites with his coaching staff. They were all beneath him and would have to pay hell when things went poorly for their unit.

yep I think it's hard to coach a team when u trying to be their buddy. As Harrison said. " he just like one of us ". U are also spot in with the staff. Cowhers way or the highway. Is there really any other way to do it well ? Maybe but I will take parcels. Cowher. Approach myself.

NJarhead
09-19-2013, 11:48 AM
[QUOTE=zulater;396041]Threads often go off in a variety of directions. It doesn't bother me when it does.

Sort of going on to original topic. I think Tomlin is a good coach, but he might be too nice a guy at times and he also sends out mixed messages. All I know is that he needs to take charge now with this team. If he has to step on Haley's toes to do so, and Todd gets hurt feeling then the hell with Todd.

The one thing with Cowher is he was an asshole to all of his coaches. None were ever comfortable, I don't think he played favorites with his coaching staff. They were all beneath him and would have to pay hell when things went poorly for their unit.[/QUOTE

yep I think it's hard to coach a team when u trying to be their buddy. As Harrison said. " he just like one of us ". U are also spot in with the staff. Cowhers way or the highway. Is there really any other way to do it well ? Maybe but I will take parcels. Cowher. Approach myself.

Harrison related that statement to Tomlin's age. If you'll recall, Tomlin overworked them his first year.

Devilsdancefloor
09-19-2013, 11:54 AM
tomlin has picked some good talent and some really bad ones as well, but so did cowher. i think the problem is there isnt a joey porter(i cant believe i just said that) on D and a Bettis/Ward on O.

NJarhead
09-19-2013, 11:59 AM
tomlin has picked some good talent and some really bad ones as well, but so did cowher. i think the problem is there isnt a joey porter(i cant believe i just said that) on D and a Bettis/Ward on O.

Hahaha! I think I know what you mean by that. I know he talked a lot, but man I LOVED having him out there. I always felt confident with him around. Much like with Greg Lloyd.

Craic
09-19-2013, 04:50 PM
How is the team doing with less of Cowher's players on it?

The exact same as Cowher's team did in his seventh year with less of Noll's players on it. I don't get your point, since the careers of Cowher and Tomlin are running pretty much parallel right now. If you want to argue about "Cowher's guys," then let's talk about Cowher's guys in his seventh year in Pittsburgh. Not in his fifteenth year in Pittsburgh after he had three bad seasons and purged a lot of players... hmm, just like what is happening now.

And yeah, free-agency and salary cap, they still exist, so the issues are the exact same as well.

Dwinsgames
09-19-2013, 05:32 PM
here is an excerpt from a conversation we are having on another board ....






vrabinec wrote:Wonder how Cowher would've done after losing his starting TE, RB, CB, ILB, 3RD DOWN BACK, and C.


Dwinsgames wrote:
just fine because he would have had monsters for O-Linemen making holes almost anybody could run through and I believe he would have brought in a TE who could have mimicked his starter ( that was going to be out 3-6 weeks to start the season ) instead of a guy he already knew was an unpolished turd ...

we can't run the dam ball because we can not run block .. Cowher would not be in that pos IMO

Jaucer (http://draftsteel.com/ff/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=2887) wrote
Agreed, there is a reason why Cowher's teams were winners 99% of the time when tied or winning at half time. He knew how to pound it out and run out the clock. This team has no chance of running out the clock. It's best bet is to keep Ben slinging it and hope to God the defense doesn't wear down to the point they can't stop anyone which usually isn't the case as defenses are best when not on the field much.
Live by smashmouth football, die by smashmouth football.

Iron Steeler
09-19-2013, 10:05 PM
Let me say it this way.. I've never said to myself "gee mike Tomlin really out smarted our opponents there" not once...

the guy's in game decision making is horrible . Substituting with the Paulson fumble . Peyton manning would of said get the fuck off my drinks were burning a play real quick to nullify the challenge. Couchery on a end around? Red man still getting playing time ? Not having a back up center ready ?

Look at all the great qbs they have a great relationship with there head coach / offensive coordinator.

brady/bellicheck
brees/ payton
peyton/ fox (dungy)
kaepernick/ harbaugh
Rodgers/McCarthy ...


those guys never have to think about adversity in play calling . They trust and like/ work well together.

The disconnect between qb-head coach / o- coordinator is obvious and it's showing up on the field .