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View Full Version : Isaac Redman was the chief reason why the Steelers sucked Sunday.



Edman
09-10-2013, 08:44 AM
Our Offense, as putrid as it was started to build some drives and momentum in the first half, but Redman's Gaffes completely took the wind out of the sails. The Titans smelled blood and went for the kill.

The Second Time Redman fumbled was when things went from bad to worse. The air went out of the balloon straight afterwards. The Titans knew right then and there that Redman was no threat and started to tee off on the O-Line and by proximity, Ben.

The Titans D isn't that good, but we made them look amazing by sheer offensive ineptitude alone. Just like Preseason, where the Giants, Redskins, and Chiefs looked like the 2000 Ravens against the Steelers Offense. This Steelers Offense is so bad it'll mostly likely make any Defense they face this year look good. Woe be to the Steelers in Cincy next week, against a much better Defense than the Titans.

The Defense can do all it wants, but it doesn't mean shit when the Offense cannot score or even move the ball. This Offense is dead in the water backed up at their own side of the field.

Psycho Ward 86
09-10-2013, 11:33 AM
thats a bit ignorant imo. The 1st fumble was the O-line and Ben's fault. Horrible horrible handoff and instantaneous penetration. Really, the majority of all of our problems were the O-line's fault. I think Hyphen would concur. When your leading rusher has 19 yards and your future hall of fame quarterback gets sacked 5 times and pressured all day against a questionable defense, there is a bigger problem lying in the wings

Master Blaster
09-10-2013, 12:06 PM
Our Offense, as putrid as it was started to build some drives and momentum in the first half, but Redman's Gaffes completely took the wind out of the sails. The Titans smelled blood and went for the kill.

The Second Time Redman fumbled was when things went from bad to worse. The air went out of the balloon straight afterwards. The Titans knew right then and there that Redman was no threat and started to tee off on the O-Line and by proximity, Ben.

The Titans D isn't that good, but we made them look amazing by sheer offensive ineptitude alone. Just like Preseason, where the Giants, Redskins, and Chiefs looked like the 2000 Ravens against the Steelers Offense. This Steelers Offense is so bad it'll mostly likely make any Defense they face this year look good. Woe be to the Steelers in Cincy next week, against a much better Defense than the Titans.

The Defense can do all it wants, but it doesn't mean shit when the Offense cannot score or even move the ball. This Offense is dead in the water backed up at their own side of the field.
You're dead wrong. Everything on offense starts with the OL and the Steelers OL was the reason why this offense was so inept. That ineptness was compounded when DeCastro ended Pouncey's season along with the fact that the only viable option they had to replace him was to have last year's seventh round pick play a position that he has no prior experience in doing. That, in itself, is the fault of Kevin Colbert. It is absolutely ludicrous to go into a season expecting an inexperienced, seventh round pick to be the key backup to every position along the line and whom was also thrust into playing the TE position because the starting TE and his backup are injured.

steeldawg
09-10-2013, 12:13 PM
Maybe if we had actually done anything when he was out of the game.

Master Blaster
09-10-2013, 12:24 PM
Maybe if we had actually done anything when he was out of the game.
Done what? I articulated why the offense was so inept. Therefore, there was not much they could do. Even if Haley made adjustments the OL was so bad that it would have made his efforts moot. They just had to grind it out and get it over with.

steeldawg
09-10-2013, 12:27 PM
Uh ya I'm saying if he was the chief reason for offense being inept then our offense would of got going when we took him out of the game. But that didn't happen therefore he could not of been the chief reason for the offense being inept.

Seven
09-10-2013, 12:49 PM
He's not the sole reason for the offense playing awful. He's certainly was a big part of it, but the chief reason? I don't know about that. Redman played about as well as I expect Redman to play. So no surprises here :chuckle:

ALLD
09-10-2013, 02:55 PM
Lack of emotion and preparation. They were too tightly scripted which when it blew up, was catastrophic.

86WARD
09-10-2013, 04:44 PM
Garbageman sucks and Tomlin is insane giving him the start again. As for center, Beachum played fairly well given the circumstances. The guy isn't a bad ball player...I mean they could use the emergency long snapper there if it made anyone feel better...Gradkowski.

steeldawg
09-10-2013, 04:50 PM
Im not surprised redman is starting again it was the first game, ya it was bad but you have to be careful not to overreact. You have had a plan all offseason I don't think u blow it up after one game. You don't want to send the message to your team that if you have a bad game you are benched because then you get scared tentative players.

Steeldude
09-10-2013, 05:02 PM
I thought so many were saying we have a good O-line? The scouts for the Steelers are poor when it comes to evaluating O-line talent after the first round, in my opinion.

Psycho Ward 86
09-10-2013, 05:24 PM
I thought so many were saying we have a good O-line? The scouts for the Steelers are poor when it comes to evaluating O-line talent after the first round, in my opinion.

ill say. it seems like we us fans are so biased that any linemen that even make marginally average plays are praised as "the-next-coming." im no longer giving any of these linemen any credit unless they really blow me away time and time again

one side only
09-10-2013, 05:37 PM
The turning point came when Pouncey was injured. The atmosphere in the stadium changed completely, both on the field and in the seats. If you believe some of the quotes from Titans players, they said the Steelers quit. I believe them. The Steelers obviously had no contingency plan if Beachum couldn't play tight end. Imagine, the entire offensive game plan predicated on a back up offensive lineman . . . incredible, but obviously true. The only chance the Steelers had was to go no huddle all the time, and to insert Felix Jones. According to Tomlin, F. Jones was not up to speed on the no huddle package. Huh? Redman played horribly, but his play reflected the lack of preparation, compounded by coaching gaffes. Let's se if the Steelers define insanity against the Bengals. I have a feeling they will.

Psycho Ward 86
09-10-2013, 05:39 PM
our no-huddle was comical on Sunday. The 1st time we tried it, we fizzled out. At the end of the game on our ONLY scoring drive, we still had to go for it on 4th down to score, so i would deem that a failure. The offensive success of a team shouldnt have to be predicated on 4th down

Dwinsgames
09-10-2013, 05:42 PM
Let's see if the Steelers define insanity against the Bengals. I have a feeling they will.


Einsteins definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results ... Starting Redman again IS what Einstein is describing

Steeldude
09-10-2013, 05:42 PM
ill say. it seems like we us fans are so biased that any linemen that even make marginally average plays are praised as "the-next-coming." im no longer giving any of these linemen any credit unless they really blow me away time and time again

That being said, there isn't an offensive lineman on the team that has show me much of anything. I have to go back to Hartings and Faneca to recall a good lineman.

Master Blaster
09-10-2013, 07:45 PM
That being said, there isn't an offensive lineman on the team that has show me much of anything. I have to go back to Hartings and Faneca to recall a good lineman.
Cowher new a stud offensive lineman when he saw one. Tomlin's answer to replacing all pro, Jeff Hartings was to bring in Sean Mahan from his former team to man the one position along the OL that had been the envy of the league for decades. This off season Colbert and Tomlin went trolling for bottom feeders again and the result was Guy Whimper whom graded out as the worst guard in the league last season. This kind of decision making does not produce championship teams. It produces the browns.

GoSlash27
09-10-2013, 08:56 PM
I'm probably one of the biggest Redman fans on this forum, and I gotta agree with the OP, mostly. Yeah, there were other things wrong too, but if Redman hadn't gotten a case of the fumble-itis, the entire game would've been changed. When he keeps the ball in his hands and runs downhill, he's a beast. Very difficult to stop without dialing your defense to honor the threat, and sometimes not even then.
When you have a credible ground threat, the D can't tee off against the passing game like they did. We ended up becoming one dimensional and paid the price.

I'm not as down on the O line as most here. We have a young crew, a new coach, and a QB who's notoriously hard to block for without drawing penalties. I *expect* them to be sad early on. I also expect that they'll start to look very good in the second half of the season.

Long/ short: Hang this loss on Redman; it's not unfair. And the AFCN is still tied, so it's like it never happened.

Master Blaster
09-11-2013, 08:20 AM
I'm not as down on the O line as most here. We have a young crew, a new coach, and a QB who's notoriously hard to block for without drawing penalties. I *expect* them to be sad early on. I also expect that they'll start to look very good in the second half of the season.
I digress. Have you ever heard the term, "you can't polish a turd."? With the way tackles, Adams and Gilbert played they looked like a shit sandwich, especially Gilbert.

GoSlash27
09-11-2013, 10:50 AM
I digress. Have you ever heard the term, "you can't polish a turd."? With the way tackles, Adams and Gilbert played they looked like a shit sandwich, especially Gilbert.
"Digress"? You sure you don't mean "disagree"? :behindsofa:

Craic
09-11-2013, 03:12 PM
Cowher new a stud offensive lineman when he saw one. Tomlin's answer to replacing all pro, Jeff Hartings was to bring in Sean Mahan from his former team to man the one position along the OL that had been the envy of the league for decades. This off season Colbert and Tomlin went trolling for bottom feeders again and the result was Guy Whimper whom graded out as the worst guard in the league last season. This kind of decision making does not produce championship teams. It produces the browns.

More revisionist history, I see.

Let's go back a few years. 2007, Steelers O line is horrible. The backups are even worse. Who put that line together? Cowher and his coaches. 2008, even worse. Most of that line was also Cowher's guys. 2009, the same.

Cowher and his guys drafted low and stuck big, meaty guys on the line that could do one thing well, run block. They were a one dimensional line and as the game has progressed, they and that style of lineman got left in the dust.

Master Blaster
09-11-2013, 03:45 PM
More revisionist history, I see.

Let's go back a few years. 2007, Steelers O line is horrible. The backups are even worse. Who put that line together? Cowher and his coaches. 2008, even worse. Most of that line was also Cowher's guys. 2009, the same.

Cowher and his guys drafted low and stuck big, meaty guys on the line that could do one thing well, run block. They were a one dimensional line and as the game has progressed, they and that style of lineman got left in the dust.
Of course you failed to point out that Marvel Smith was dealing with chronic back problems, Faneca was past his prime, Sean Mahan, (Tomlin's guy) was replacing Hartings, Kendall Simmons was never the same since being diagnoses with type two diabetes and Willie Colon was just inserted as the RT. Smith, Faneca, Hartings and Simmons all made the pro bowl. In the seven years that Tomlin has been the HC Pouncey is the only offensive lineman, drafted by Tomlin, to make the pro bowl. Cowher had Jerome Bettis. Therefore, he built his OL around his running style.

zulater
09-12-2013, 07:21 AM
Cowher new a stud offensive lineman when he saw one. Tomlin's answer to replacing all pro, Jeff Hartings was to bring in Sean Mahan from his former team to man the one position along the OL that had been the envy of the league for decades. This off season Colbert and Tomlin went trolling for bottom feeders again and the result was Guy Whimper whom graded out as the worst guard in the league last season. This kind of decision making does not produce championship teams. It produces the browns. QFT.

Seven years in Tomlin's calling card is shitty offensive lines.

Edman
09-12-2013, 08:11 AM
The Offensive Line Problems persisted before Tomlin got here.

Tomlin's issue is that he was unable to fix it, he didn't cause the problem. Cowher and his boys did. Does anyone NOT remember 2006?

Ben deserves a big share of the blame too. I'm going to put this out there because no other Steeler fan (or coach) wants to hold him accountable. Is it any coincidence that one he took bigger responsibility of the offense that the O-Line Woes started? We know the story by now. Ben is a sandlot QB who exerts no discipline in his craft. He's satisfied just being good when he has the tools to be great. Three mediocre Super Bowl performances and being unable to win if the Steelers D is anything less than Superhuman speak for themselves. Sunday and last year's debacle against Cincinnati at home was a microcosm of his entire career in Pittsburgh. The Defense plays hard, shows effort and he can't go beyond mediocre and being shut out for three quarters by a subpar Titans team.

Like clockwork, we have idiots blaming the Defense for the loss Sunday.

zulater
09-12-2013, 08:21 AM
The Offensive Line Problems persisted before Tomlin got here.

Tomlin's issue is that he was unable to fix it, he didn't cause the problem. Cowher and his boys did. Does anyone NOT remember 2006?

Ben deserves a big share of the blame too. I'm going to put this out there because no other Steeler fan (or coach) wants to hold him accountable. Is it any coincidence that one he took bigger responsibility of the offense that the O-Line Woes started? We know the story by now. Ben is a sandlot QB who exerts no discipline in his craft. He's satisfied just being good when he has the tools to be great. Three mediocre Super Bowl performances and being unable to win if the Steelers D is anything less than Superhuman speak for themselves. Sunday and last year's debacle against Cincinnati at home was a microcosm of his entire career in Pittsburgh. The Defense plays hard, shows effort and he can't go beyond mediocre and being shut out for three quarters by a subpar Titans team.

Like clockwork, we have idiots blaming the Defense for the loss Sunday.

Cowher coached 14 years, how many of those teams had bad offensive lines? Three, maybe 4? So 10 out of 14 years Cowher's teams had adequate to exceptional offensive lines. 7 years in Tomlin's teams haven't even had so much as one average offensive line. I'm sensing a trend here.

And by the way that 2006 team was 12 in points scored and 7th in yards gained. Know how many times Tomlin's Steelers exceeded that? Answer, one team for each, in 07 the Steelers were 9th in points scored, and in 09 they were 7th in yards. Tomlin's Steelers have never been better than mediocre offensively.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/

Here's the link see for yourself.

As far as Ben goes. There's not a qb in the league that would look good with no offensive line or running game. He wasn't perfect, but when you can't protect your quarterback he's not going to be.

Mojouw
09-12-2013, 08:39 AM
Isn't the offensive line issues more of Colbert problem than a Tomlin issue? In theory, Colbert buys the groceries and Tomlin and his staff make the meal - to borrow badly from Bill Parcells. Additionally complaining about the line has to be done in context. Consistently drafting outside of the first dozen picks or so for the better part of a decade means you are never going to have a shot at an elite tackle prospect period. In fact the one time they got in that range, ownership had to insist on the QB rather than a tackle.

For better or worse (apparently for cover your eyes worse) Pittsburgh has invested more resources in the offensive line under Tomlin than they typically did under Cowher. From left to right, a 2nd rounder (who supposedly was graded out higher than that but smoked too much), UDFA, 1st rounder, 1st rounder, 2nd rounder. In terms of devoting resources to fixing the line, not much more that could be done.

That being said there are some problems somewhere because these guys stink. The best of them, Pouncey, is injured every year and is more than a bit overrated. The back-ups are awful because of the cap issues. That is why Whimper is on the team. When you have little money to devote to depth, then you get wash-outs like Whimper on your bench. Other issues include the coaching staff consistently attempting to fit square pegs into round wholes with scheme versus the personnel -- which one of this slow-footed dim-witted dudes look like they should be zone blocking? Maybe Pouncey (of course his mobility will likely be hampered for the rest of his career now) or maybe Decastro. Oh yeah, that's right on his first mobile cut block he DOVE AT HIS OWN MAN'S LEG.

I think next year, they should draft an o-lineman who isn't stupid. I am sick and tired of watching a Steelers olineman (particularly the tackles) either block air or pass off a rusher to an already engaged teammate -- so that rusher can simply mosey into the backfield and blow-up the play. Hell at this point -- FREE GUY WHIMPER! How much worse can it get?

zulater
09-12-2013, 08:44 AM
Isn't the offensive line issues more of Colbert problem than a Tomlin issue? In theory, Colbert buys the groceries and Tomlin and his staff make the meal - to borrow badly from Bill Parcells. Additionally complaining about the line has to be done in context. Consistently drafting outside of the first dozen picks or so for the better part of a decade means you are never going to have a shot at an elite tackle prospect period. In fact the one time they got in that range, ownership had to insist on the QB rather than a tackle.

For better or worse (apparently for cover your eyes worse) Pittsburgh has invested more resources in the offensive line under Tomlin than they typically did under Cowher. From left to right, a 2nd rounder (who supposedly was graded out higher than that but smoked too much), UDFA, 1st rounder, 1st rounder, 2nd rounder. In terms of devoting resources to fixing the line, not much more that could be done.

That being said there are some problems somewhere because these guys stink. The best of them, Pouncey, is injured every year and is more than a bit overrated. The back-ups are awful because of the cap issues. That is why Whimper is on the team. When you have little money to devote to depth, then you get wash-outs like Whimper on your bench. Other issues include the coaching staff consistently attempting to fit square pegs into round wholes with scheme versus the personnel -- which one of this slow-footed dim-witted dudes look like they should be zone blocking? Maybe Pouncey (of course his mobility will likely be hampered for the rest of his career now) or maybe Decastro. Oh yeah, that's right on his first mobile cut block he DOVE AT HIS OWN MAN'S LEG.

I think next year, they should draft an o-lineman who isn't stupid. I am sick and tired of watching a Steelers olineman (particularly the tackles) either block air or pass off a rusher to an already engaged teammate -- so that rusher can simply mosey into the backfield and blow-up the play. Hell at this point -- FREE GUY WHIMPER! How much worse can it get?

In that case, a lot! Whimper makes Jon Peterson look like Jonathan Ogden! Beachum might be their best tackle though. If things don't improve I expect to see him tried as a starter.

Master Blaster
09-12-2013, 09:02 AM
Isn't the offensive line issues more of Colbert problem than a Tomlin issue? In theory, Colbert buys the groceries and Tomlin and his staff make the meal - to borrow badly from Bill Parcells. Additionally complaining about the line has to be done in context. Consistently drafting outside of the first dozen picks or so for the better part of a decade means you are never going to have a shot at an elite tackle prospect period. In fact the one time they got in that range, ownership had to insist on the QB rather than a tackle.

For better or worse (apparently for cover your eyes worse) Pittsburgh has invested more resources in the offensive line under Tomlin than they typically did under Cowher. From left to right, a 2nd rounder (who supposedly was graded out higher than that but smoked too much), UDFA, 1st rounder, 1st rounder, 2nd rounder. In terms of devoting resources to fixing the line, not much more that could be done.

That being said there are some problems somewhere because these guys stink. The best of them, Pouncey, is injured every year and is more than a bit overrated. The back-ups are awful because of the cap issues. That is why Whimper is on the team. When you have little money to devote to depth, then you get wash-outs like Whimper on your bench. Other issues include the coaching staff consistently attempting to fit square pegs into round wholes with scheme versus the personnel -- which one of this slow-footed dim-witted dudes look like they should be zone blocking? Maybe Pouncey (of course his mobility will likely be hampered for the rest of his career now) or maybe Decastro. Oh yeah, that's right on his first mobile cut block he DOVE AT HIS OWN MAN'S LEG.

I think next year, they should draft an o-lineman who isn't stupid. I am sick and tired of watching a Steelers olineman (particularly the tackles) either block air or pass off a rusher to an already engaged teammate -- so that rusher can simply mosey into the backfield and blow-up the play. Hell at this point -- FREE GUY WHIMPER! How much worse can it get?
Actually, we've heard Colbert and Tomlin say that when the issue of personnel decisions is being discussed it is a collaborative effort. Everyone including ownership, the GM, the scouts and the coaching staff have input. Therefore, everyone, but the players are to blame for bringing the Jonathan Scotts and Guy Whimpers.

Edman
09-12-2013, 10:45 AM
Cowher coached 14 years, how many of those teams had bad offensive lines? Three, maybe 4? So 10 out of 14 years Cowher's teams had adequate to exceptional offensive lines. 7 years in Tomlin's teams haven't even had so much as one average offensive line. I'm sensing a trend here.

And by the way that 2006 team was 12 in points scored and 7th in yards gained. Know how many times Tomlin's Steelers exceeded that? Answer, one team for each, in 07 the Steelers were 9th in points scored, and in 09 they were 7th in yards. Tomlin's Steelers have never been better than mediocre offensively.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/

Here's the link see for yourself.

As far as Ben goes. There's not a qb in the league that would look good with no offensive line or running game. He wasn't perfect, but when you can't protect your quarterback he's not going to be.

Three Different Coordinators, mix and match O-Lines, same offensive issues for the last 7 years. Inconsistency. Ineptitude. Sloppiness. The proof is in the pudding.

"Draft good Linemen they said" Fix the O-Line! Fire this guy! They did fix it. They cut everyone. Fired coaches, brought new guys in. Yet, the problem persists. Something clearly isn't working. Why?

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. "Fix the O-Line" isn't working. "Fire the coaches" isn't working. Pointing fingers at the Offensive Line isn't working. There's still a bug in the machine. Where is this bug?

The bug has been there all along. He's wearing #7. It's been staring everyone in the face the whole time, but we're so afraid to look at it. We're afraid of alienating this bug. We're afraid of looking at the past. We're afraid of how Pittsburgh treated Terry Bradshaw in the 70's. We're afraid of "looking bad" for demanding more from our Quarterbacks. Unfortunately, this attitude also extends to the coaches, and the organization.

It's so easy to point fingers at other players, not once ever has the finger ever been pointed at #7, when he is the chief cause of everything. The ONLY constant source of our offensive mediocrity.

Time to look at the only ONE Constant between these all of these teams. The ONE constant behind all of this offensive ineptitude. Instead of saying "Fix the O-Line" how about "Fix the Quarterback?", instead?

Master Blaster
09-12-2013, 11:07 AM
Three Different Coordinators, mix and match O-Lines, same offensive issues for the last 7 years. Inconsistency. Ineptitude. Sloppiness. The proof is in the pudding.

"Draft good Linemen they said" Fix the O-Line! Fire this guy! They did fix it. They cut everyone. Fired coaches, brought new guys in. Yet, the problem persists. Something clearly isn't working. Why?

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. "Fix the O-Line" isn't working. "Fire the coaches" isn't working. Pointing fingers at the Offensive Line isn't working. There's still a bug in the machine. Where is this bug?

The bug has been there all along. He's wearing #7. It's been staring everyone in the face the whole time, but we're so afraid to look at it. We're afraid of alienating this bug. We're afraid of looking at the past. We're afraid of how Pittsburgh treated Terry Bradshaw in the 70's. We're afraid of "looking bad" for demanding more from our Quarterbacks. Unfortunately, this attitude also extends to the coaches, and the organization.

It's so easy to point fingers at other players, not once ever has the finger ever been pointed at #7, when he is the chief cause of everything. The ONLY constant source of our offensive mediocrity.

Time to look at the only ONE Constant between these all of these teams. The ONE constant behind all of this offensive ineptitude. Instead of saying "Fix the O-Line" how about "Fix the Quarterback?", instead?
This post was a complete waste of time because it is based on flawed logic. That "bug" took this team to three S.B.'s and won two of them. The underlying problem with this team starts at the top.

It seems that there was a seismic shift in Colbert's idea of building the team.

First: That shift started after they hired Tomlin. It also begs the question, how much influence, if any, does Tomlin have in personnel decisions? If we look at his first foray into free agency, (bringing in a former player from his former team, Sean Mahan, to replace pro bowl center, Jeff Hartings thus ending decades of sustained excellence at the position) as a gauge then he should have very little input.


Second: Huston, we have a problem!

* Has Colbert moved away from doing things the "Steer Way"?
* I know that the draft is not an exact science, but other than his first round successes Colbert has a terrible track record. A perfect example being that there are no players from the 2008 draft still on the team and there are only two left from the 2009 draft. Those are players that should be solid contributors by this time, yet they no longer exist on this team.
* Has Colbert and his scouting staff changed their priorities and or philosophy? Seeing the number of high value draft picks wash out due to character issues is alarming for a team that has always placed a premium on high character players.
* When did we ever see this team struggle with cap issues like we have since Tomlin was hired?
* When did we ever see this team go into a season so egregiously and inexcusably depleted in depth, especially along the OL? Starting a season with the intent to rid itself of the stench of the previous 8-8 season, with a seventh round pick as their only viable option to back up every other OL position along the OL, with a free agent acquisition, Whimper, that has no business being on this roster, is ludicrous. In addition, they are asking that same seventh round pick to also play the tight end position because their starter and his primary back up are injured and the other TE's can't block to save their lives.
* The decision to cut Dwyer in favor of oft injured Redman, whom only had two carries in the preseason, was based on feelings instead of sound reasoning. That bad decision was magnified by another bad decision when they designated Redman as the starting RB, especially knowing that his body of work showed no signs to justify that decision.
* Does Tomlin place the same value in his O.L. that Cowher did? From the outside looking in one could assume that he doesn't.
* Tomlin's failures as a head coach were obvious this past Sunday. Poor clock management, poor game management, poor personnel management and a failure to adjust we're on full display.

Craic
09-12-2013, 11:09 AM
Of course you failed to point out that Marvel Smith was dealing with chronic back problems, Faneca was past his prime, Sean Mahan, (Tomlin's guy) was replacing Hartings, Kendall Simmons was never the same since being diagnoses with type two diabetes and Willie Colon was just inserted as the RT. Smith, Faneca, Hartings and Simmons all made the pro bowl. In the seven years that Tomlin has been the HC Pouncey is the only offensive lineman, drafted by Tomlin, to make the pro bowl. Cowher had Jerome Bettis. Therefore, he built his OL around his running style.

No, I didn't fail to point them out, because they left us shells of former players with NO BACKUPS to take their spots. In short, we were headed in this direction no matter who was coaching.

And as far as building his OL around a style, yeah, we had a single dimension O line that was built around a one dimension offense—run the ball. An offense that failed to get us to the SB how many times again? That's what I thought. Why was the passing game working Ben's first year or two? Because we were known for being such a run dominant team that it took two plus years for teams to catch on that we had someone who could actually throw a ball.

Master Blaster
09-12-2013, 11:34 AM
No, I didn't fail to point them out, because they left us shells of former players with NO BACKUPS to take their spots. In short, we were headed in this direction no matter who was coaching.

And as far as building his OL around a style, yeah, we had a single dimension O line that was built around a one dimension offense—run the ball. An offense that failed to get us to the SB how many times again? That's what I thought. Why was the passing game working Ben's first year or two? Because we were known for being such a run dominant team that it took two plus years for teams to catch on that we had someone who could actually throw a ball.
On the contrary. That offense got this team to S.B. XXX. That offense was one dimentional because it lacked the one ingredient that would have provided more SB victories and that was, a franchise QB. That's an irrefutable fact. It was a run dominant offense because they had a dominant running back in Gerome Bettis. The team was built around him because he was their best offensive weapon. Therefore, when they finally drafted a franchise QB in 2004 the team was already heavily invested in the running game and their most productive and identifiable offensive weapon, Bettis was at the end of his career.

Craic
09-12-2013, 12:07 PM
On the contrary. That offense got this team to S.B. XXX. That offense was one dimentional because it lacked the one ingredient that would have provided more SB victories and that was, a franchise QB. That's an irrefutable fact. It was a run dominant offense because they had a dominant running back in Gerome Bettis. The team was built around him because he was their best offensive weapon. Therefore, when they finally drafted a franchise QB in 2004 the team was already heavily invested in the running game and their most productive and identifiable offensive weapon, Bettis was at the end of his career.

In 2004 Bettis was not their most dominant and best weapon. He had lost his starting job already. The next year he was pretty much relegated to being a goal line back. As far as SB XXX goes, we lost. But remember, we were known as a running team, but had Kordell Stewart back in his "slash" role, so once again, we were able to run off of our reputation as a run team and then confuse them with a few passes.

And the issue you're missing, is that to have a franchise QB that throws the ball, you have to have a PASS BLOCKING offensive line. That means the one-dimension run-dominant offense would have to shift to being a balanced offense and offensive line, and we saw how horrible they were at that once teams realized that the line wouldn't shoot out at them every down because we were no longer running the ball every down.

In short, we have big, heavy fat guys on the line. They were not fleet of foot (with the exception of the LG pull) That set up does NOT make for the best pass blockers. So at any point when they got a franchise QB and wanted to start passing the ball consistently, they would have had the EXACT same problems this team ran into in 2006 and beyond. Because, once again, pretty much the entire line in those first three years after the SB was still all Cowher's guys on the line.

Master Blaster
09-12-2013, 12:42 PM
In 2004 Bettis was not their most dominant and best weapon. He had lost his starting job already. The next year he was pretty much relegated to being a goal line back. As far as SB XXX goes, we lost. But remember, we were known as a running team, but had Kordell Stewart back in his "slash" role, so once again, we were able to run off of our reputation as a run team and then confuse them with a few passes.

And the issue you're missing, is that to have a franchise QB that throws the ball, you have to have a PASS BLOCKING offensive line. That means the one-dimension run-dominant offense would have to shift to being a balanced offense and offensive line, and we saw how horrible they were at that once teams realized that the line wouldn't shoot out at them every down because we were no longer running the ball every down.

In short, we have big, heavy fat guys on the line. They were not fleet of foot (with the exception of the LG pull) That set up does NOT make for the best pass blockers. So at any point when they got a franchise QB and wanted to start passing the ball consistently, they would have had the EXACT same problems this team ran into in 2006 and beyond. Because, once again, pretty much the entire line in those first three years after the SB was still all Cowher's guys on the line.
I did say that by the time they drafted Ben, Bettis was at the end of his career, didn't I? I did not miss the issue of the line as it related to pass blocking for Ben because as I, clearly, pointed out the line he inherited was built around Bettis whom was the face of the franchise and the main focus of the offense until they drafted Ben. Given that fact, it goes without saying that, because of Ben being the missing piece they needed, the front office needed to change their approach to the type of linemen they needed to a better job of pass blocking for him. To be fair, that offensive line he inherited did allow him to become the most successful rookie QB in the history of the league in 2004.

steeldawg
09-12-2013, 03:36 PM
Three Different Coordinators, mix and match O-Lines, same offensive issues for the last 7 years. Inconsistency. Ineptitude. Sloppiness. The proof is in the pudding.

"Draft good Linemen they said" Fix the O-Line! Fire this guy! They did fix it. They cut everyone. Fired coaches, brought new guys in. Yet, the problem persists. Something clearly isn't working. Why?

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. "Fix the O-Line" isn't working. "Fire the coaches" isn't working. Pointing fingers at the Offensive Line isn't working. There's still a bug in the machine. Where is this bug?

The bug has been there all along. He's wearing #7. It's been staring everyone in the face the whole time, but we're so afraid to look at it. We're afraid of alienating this bug. We're afraid of looking at the past. We're afraid of how Pittsburgh treated Terry Bradshaw in the 70's. We're afraid of "looking bad" for demanding more from our Quarterbacks. Unfortunately, this attitude also extends to the coaches, and the organization.

It's so easy to point fingers at other players, not once ever has the finger ever been pointed at #7, when he is the chief cause of everything. The ONLY constant source of our offensive mediocrity.

Time to look at the only ONE Constant between these all of these teams. The ONE constant behind all of this offensive ineptitude. Instead of saying "Fix the O-Line" how about "Fix the Quarterback?", instead?

Fix the quarter back how? Quarterback is our strongest position and really one of the few I feel good about. I think the biggest problem was getting rid of arians what other franchise qb gets their offensive coordinator changed and offensive philosophy changed in their prime? Ben's game is down the field, its not quick reads complete 10 passes on a drive for a td. He likes big plays that's why he extends plays so him and arians where a perfect match. If your going to run this short passing game then the oline needs to be able to block because if the defense is sitting on the short routes as the titans did ben needs time to go through his progressions. I know haley wants quick hitters but if you cant run the ball and your not threatening deep its hard to get those underneath routes open.

vader29
09-12-2013, 05:42 PM
For all the Redman haters, he has now only fumbled once this year without losing any. :p

378278913492779009

steeldawg
09-12-2013, 05:54 PM
For all the Redman haters, he has now only fumbled once this year without losing any. :p

378278913492779009

Cut Ben!

Psycho Ward 86
09-12-2013, 08:26 PM
For all the Redman haters, he has now only fumbled once this year without losing any. :p

378278913492779009

it was kind of a combined blame on ben and the offensive line imo. ben had a horrible handoff (seriously, what is this pop warner), and the O-line allowed instant penetration.

Seven
09-12-2013, 09:08 PM
For all the Redman haters, he has now only fumbled once this year without losing any. :p

378278913492779009

The fumble was annoying but it was his general lack of rushing ability that concerns me. Stephens-Howling came into the game and picked up yards when Redman couldn't, even behind the awful blocking. I like Redman, really. He seems like a decent guy and at least up until he lost the weight was a strong goal line player. But how many backs have to outperform him before we pull the plug? Every game he plays the guy who spells him performs better than he does on a similar amount of carries. Mendenhall, Dwyer and now Stephens-Howling.

zulater
09-12-2013, 10:07 PM
This post was a complete waste of time because it is based on flawed logic. That "bug" took this team to three S.B.'s and won two of them. The underlying problem with this team starts at the top.

It seems that there was a seismic shift in Colbert's idea of building the team.

First: That shift started after they hired Tomlin. It also begs the question, how much influence, if any, does Tomlin have in personnel decisions? If we look at his first foray into free agency, (bringing in a former player from his former team, Sean Mahan, to replace pro bowl center, Jeff Hartings thus ending decades of sustained excellence at the position) as a gauge then he should have very little input.


Second: Huston, we have a problem!

* Has Colbert moved away from doing things the "Steer Way"?
* I know that the draft is not an exact science, but other than his first round successes Colbert has a terrible track record. A perfect example being that there are no players from the 2008 draft still on the team and there are only two left from the 2009 draft. Those are players that should be solid contributors by this time, yet they no longer exist on this team.
* Has Colbert and his scouting staff changed their priorities and or philosophy? Seeing the number of high value draft picks wash out due to character issues is alarming for a team that has always placed a premium on high character players.
* When did we ever see this team struggle with cap issues like we have since Tomlin was hired?
* When did we ever see this team go into a season so egregiously and inexcusably depleted in depth, especially along the OL? Starting a season with the intent to rid itself of the stench of the previous 8-8 season, with a seventh round pick as their only viable option to back up every other OL position along the OL, with a free agent acquisition, Whimper, that has no business being on this roster, is ludicrous. In addition, they are asking that same seventh round pick to also play the tight end position because their starter and his primary back up are injured and the other TE's can't block to save their lives.
* The decision to cut Dwyer in favor of oft injured Redman, whom only had two carries in the preseason, was based on feelings instead of sound reasoning. That bad decision was magnified by another bad decision when they designated Redman as the starting RB, especially knowing that his body of work showed no signs to justify that decision.
* Does Tomlin place the same value in his O.L. that Cowher did? From the outside looking in one could assume that he doesn't.
* Tomlin's failures as a head coach were obvious this past Sunday. Poor clock management, poor game management, poor personnel management and a failure to adjust we're on full display.

Great post! Give it a couple years after Ben's gone and see what that guy has to say. :doh: :crazy:

Steeldude
09-13-2013, 04:02 AM
Fix the quarter back how? Quarterback is our strongest position and really one of the few I feel good about. I think the biggest problem was getting rid of arians what other franchise qb gets their offensive coordinator changed and offensive philosophy changed in their prime? Ben's game is down the field, its not quick reads complete 10 passes on a drive for a td. He likes big plays that's why he extends plays so him and arians where a perfect match. If your going to run this short passing game then the oline needs to be able to block because if the defense is sitting on the short routes as the titans did ben needs time to go through his progressions. I know haley wants quick hitters but if you cant run the ball and your not threatening deep its hard to get those underneath routes open.

BR's game is school yard football.


He likes big plays

Which is a problem. I will take consistent, solid football over poor, inconsistent football with a big play once in a long while. The offense was poor under Arians also.


If your going to run this short passing game then the oline needs to be able to block because if the defense is sitting on the short routes

Doesn't that mean they need to block on long routes too? Short routes are designed to relieve a poor O-line or strong pass rush. Hence the reason people would dink and dunk the Steelers. IMO, BR is not the type of QB to make quick reads ala Manning or Brady.

Seven
09-13-2013, 04:09 AM
Doesn't that mean they need to block on long routes too? Short routes are designed to relieve a poor O-line or strong pass rush. Hence the reason people would dink and dunk the Steelers. IMO, BR is not the type of QB to make quick reads ala Manning or Brady.

Ben has the ability to make quick reads. We've seen him do it in the past against strong defenses. It's the discipline that he lacks, in my opinion. You are right that his game is school yard ball. I think the staff should just let him play it. But that isn't Todd Haley's game. Haley likes every aspect of his offense from personnel and audibles right down to the snap to be under his control and not the quarterbacks. The only time I've ever seen a Todd Haley offense give the quarterback any kind of leeway was when Kurt Warner was at the helm, and even then it was very little. Haley wants his players to run what they are told, when they are told almost indifferently to what the defense across from them is doing. That can work, but everyone has to buy in and there isn't much room for error as there was under Bruce Arians' SLING IT! style system. If Ben puts his mind to it, this offense should be very easy to execute. I think where we'll see conflict is when Ben instinctively wants to pull a Favre but the scheme won't allow for it.

steeldawg
09-13-2013, 05:50 AM
BR's game is school yard football.



Which is a problem. I will take consistent, solid football over poor, inconsistent football with a big play once in a long while. The offense was poor under Arians also.



Doesn't that mean they need to block on long routes too? Short routes are designed to relieve a poor O-line or strong pass rush. Hence the reason people would dink and dunk the Steelers. IMO, BR is not the type of QB to make quick reads ala Manning or Brady.

Of course you need to block on long routes, the point is if your going to run the short passing game all game, the defense is going to sit on those routes just like the titans did. So if your not throwing the ball down the field to open the quick or underneath routes your qb is going to need time to go through the progressions and look for someone to get open. Ben can make quick reads but haley needs to do some things down the field to open the short game up and the running game. As far as big plays go, you need them as an offense, defenses are to good in the nfl to consistently put together long methodical drives. Ben is playmaker he is always going to look to make a play, you can give me that quality any day of the week in a football player. The offense was not poor under arians, we may have had some redzone problems but certainly not poor.

zulater
09-13-2013, 05:59 PM
As to the OP. I agree, the two most promising drives of the first half were destroyed by Redman fumbles. And after watching it several times over I'm not sure why Ben was assigned blame for the fumble? It might not have been the best of handoffs, but it was one that Redman should have fielded.

Of course the entire stable of running backs were useless for this game. Not only did their running suck ( and yes I know the blocking was poor) but they also did a bad job in pass protection, giving up 3 sacks among'st them, and Howling also had an inexcusable drop on a perfectly thrown pass in the flat.

Master Blaster
09-14-2013, 07:07 AM
As to the OP. I agree, the two most promising drives of the first half were destroyed by Redman fumbles. And after watching it several times over I'm not sure why Ben was assigned blame for the fumble? It might not have been the best of handoffs, but it was one that Redman should have fielded.

Of course the entire stable of running backs were useless for this game. Not only did their running suck ( and yes I know the blocking was poor) but they also did a bad job in pass protection, giving up 3 sacks among'st them, and Howling also had an inexcusable drop on a perfectly thrown pass in the flat.
Gilbert, alone, was responsible for three of those sacks along with allowing his man to pressure Ben. Gilbert is the worst player on the line.

Dwinsgames
09-14-2013, 07:49 AM
Redman sucks , that being said if the 0- Line does not play leaps and bounds better whomever plays will not be good its just a matter of the degree of ugliness not whether it will be ugly or not ...its HOW Ugly will it be


Tall order for this line IMO because The Benglas have one of the NFL's Better front 7s .......

this next game could potentially be uglier than the last , the recipe is there for the dish of disaster the only question is can they cook it up ...

to win this game we need turnovers by the bunches IMO

silver & black
09-14-2013, 08:04 AM
I didn't bother reading through all these posts. I'll just say this... Redman isn't why your offense sucked. Your O line is why your offense sucked.

I usually don't comment on your team's performance because I don't feel it's my place as a guest but, I know a little bit about how it goes when your O line sucks.... just sayin'. :wink02:

zulater
09-14-2013, 07:13 PM
I didn't bother reading through all these posts. I'll just say this... Redman isn't why your offense sucked. Your O line is why your offense sucked.

I usually don't comment on your team's performance because I don't feel it's my place as a guest but, I know a little bit about how it goes when your O line sucks.... just sayin'. :wink02:

Redman's inability to control a handoff took points of the board on one drive, and his fumble later took the wind out of the sails on the only other promising drive.

steeldawg
09-14-2013, 07:15 PM
And the offensive line killed many drives during that game.

Psycho Ward 86
09-14-2013, 11:01 PM
Redman's inability to control a handoff took points of the board on one drive, and his fumble later took the wind out of the sails on the only other promising drive.

that was clearly ben's fault for the horrible handoff and the o-line for allowing instant penetration behind the LOS. but yes redman shit the bed.

at least the offense looked good when redman was out of the game woohoo :lol

Nadroj 20
09-15-2013, 10:23 AM
I would definitely argue that it was "clearly" Bens fault on the handoff. It was higher then you usually would hand it but good backs can take that handoff no problem way more times then not.

Just my opinion but Redman should have been able to take that handoff

Count Steeler
09-15-2013, 10:36 AM
I would definitely argue that it was "clearly" Bens fault on the handoff. It was higher then you usually would hand it but good backs can take that handoff no problem way more times then not.

Just my opinion but Redman should have been able to take that handoff

I didn't like the way the whole play looked disorganized. Ben should have taken a time out and reset the offense. I believe there were less than 5 seconds left to snap the ball when Ben was behind center and guys were not set.

steeldawg
09-15-2013, 10:51 AM
The problem was because redman was so close to the line the handoff had to be perfect because there was no time adjust. I think the play design was more the cause of the fumble, all they had to do was a normal handoff straight ahead, why get fancy it's not like the titans were thinking we were going to hand the ball to david Johnson for a goaline carry.

Nadroj 20
09-15-2013, 11:23 AM
I didn't like the way the whole play looked disorganized. Ben should have taken a time out and reset the offense. I believe there were less than 5 seconds left to snap the ball when Ben was behind center and guys were not set.


The problem was because redman was so close to the line the handoff had to be perfect because there was no time adjust. I think the play design was more the cause of the fumble, all they had to do was a normal handoff straight ahead, why get fancy it's not like the titans were thinking we were going to hand the ball to david Johnson for a goaline carry.

Yeah true the whole play was bad. Blame should go all around honestly.

Master Blaster
09-16-2013, 06:40 AM
After reviewing the play, it was doomed from the start. Redman had no chance to secure the ball after Ben put it under his chin. Redman was one step from contact when Ben put the ball where he did. The question that needs to be answered is, why was Redman the only one to realize they had the wrong personal group in for that play? Did running back's coach, Kirby Wilson not see it? Why didn't OC, Haley see it, recognize it and call for a time out? There is no excuse for the offensive coaching staff to not be aware of who is on the field for that play.