Le’Veon Bell hopes to play Week Two, Isaac Redman hopes to remain starter

[polamalubeast]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/02/leveon-bell-hopes-to-play-week-two-isaac-redman-hopes-to-remain-starter/

[Steeldude]

It will be musical RBs again.

[polamalubeast]

It will be musical RBs again.

only if Bell is not healthy this year.....

[ALLD]

Redman better play the best game of his career.

[one side only]

Felix Jones should start, Redman should handle short yardage duties, and perhaps play one series to give Jones a breather. LSH should be mixed in some and come in on third down. Will Johnson didn't practice today and if he doesn't play, I think we will see a lot of 1 back, 2 TE sets. Jones is much better suited to that than Redman.

[steeldawg]

Felix Jones should start, Redman should handle short yardage duties, and perhaps play one series to give Jones a breather. LSH should be mixed in some and come in on third down. Will Johnson didn't practice today and if he doesn't play, I think we will see a lot of 1 back, 2 TE sets. Jones is much better suited to that than Redman.

my guess is redman may start but we will see more of jones.

[tube517]

Really doesn't matter who starts. Stay healthy, kick ass in the red zone and get some TDs or put Ben in a position to throw for some TDs. We just haven't had that for a long time. And don't turn the damn ball over. I don't want to see another Cleveland debacle

[Steeldude]

only if Bell is not healthy this year.....

And if he is a healthy flop he remains the starter?

[86WARD]

And if he is a healthy flop he remains the starter?

No. Then they are just in the exact same mess they were last year. With garbage at RB...younger garbage.

[st33lersguy]

Hopefully he doesn't get injured in 4 plays if he starts

[Seven]

I like Bell as a prospect but I'm a little concerned that we've put all our eggs in his basket. We've surrounded him with role players for running mates so he better pan out as a legitimate featured runner. I hope we see a hefty dose of Jones and Stephens-Howling if Redman can't get going. I'll be fuming if we see the usual three yards per tout from him and the staff doesn't give someone else the ball. Hopefully Redman sees the kind of holes he enjoyed against New York last season and it won't matter who is taking handoffs.

[steeldawg]

Im not sure why everyone is so upset with our running game, the talent of our running backs is so much better than it was last year.

[Seven]

Im not sure why everyone is so upset with our running game, the talent of our running backs is so much better than it was last year.

How do you figure that? As far as talent goes, give me Mendenhall over anyone on our roster right now. I like Bell, but he is an unknown. And I don't think he is close to the prospect Mendenhall was coming out of the NCAA.

[Dwinsgames]

Im not sure why everyone is so upset with our running game, the talent of our running backs is so much better than it was last year.


maybe because the most productive back last season and this preseason is looking for work in New Jersey and we have a bunch of new pieces that have seen very little work in Jones and Hyphen and a highly touted draft pick that has not been able to stay healthy enough to take any reps ..... then there is Redman who most of us realize is not the guy you want to rely on due to lack of consistent ability and lack of the ability to stay healthy ....

on the bright side mendenhall is gone

[steeldawg]

maybe because the most productive back last season and this preseason is looking for work in New Jersey and we have a bunch of new pieces that have seen very little work in Jones and Hyphen and a highly touted draft pick that has not been able to stay healthy enough to take any reps ..... then there is Redman who most of us realize is not the guy you want to rely on due to lack of consistent ability and lack of the ability to stay healthy ....

on the bright side mendenhall is gone

Lol you guys crack me up with that most productive back last year stuff, you act like we cut Adrian Peterson. I do know that mendenhall went straight to another team and was immediately the starter, It cracks me up also how you tout dwyer as being productive but turn your nose up at mendenhall.

[Steeldude]

How do you figure that? As far as talent goes, give me Mendenhall over anyone on our roster right now. I like Bell, but he is an unknown. And I don't think he is close to the prospect Mendenhall was coming out of the NCAA.

Because he has a personal grudge against Dwyer because he unseated Mendenhall.

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Lol you guys crack me up with that most productive back last year stuff, you act like we cut Adrian Peterson. I do know that mendenhall went straight to another team and was immediately the starter, It cracks me up also how you tout dwyer as being productive but turn your nose up at mendenhall.

2012-

Mendenhall: 51 carries, 182 yards, 3.6YPC
Dwyer: 156 carries, 623 yards, 4.0YPC

You were saying?

[steeldawg]

Because he has a personal grudge against Dwyer because he unseated Mendenhall.

no he didn't he played because mendy wasn't healthy, dwyer couldn't hold mendenhalls jock.

[Seven]

no he didn't he played because mendy wasn't healthy, dwyer couldn't hold mendenhalls jock.

Except you're forgetting the fact that Dwyer remained the starter after Mendenhall returned from injury.

[steeldawg]

Except you're forgetting the fact that Dwyer remained the starter after Mendenhall returned from injury.

No mendy came back, started and was reinjured and then we came back again they didn't play him so they could get exposure for dwyer. They knew they where not resigning mendy and they wanted dwyers name out there hence trying to trade him in the offseason but no one was dumb enough to offer anything for him. He did not unseat mendy it's not like he was so incredible in practice that they started playing him over mendy.

[Steeldude]

No mendy came back, started and was reinjured and then we came back again they didn't play him so they could get exposure for dwyer. They knew they where not resigning mendy and they wanted dwyers name out there hence trying to trade him in the offseason but no one was dumb enough to offer anything for him. He did not unseat mendy it's not like he was so incredible in practice that they started playing him over mendy.

Dwyer starting and a healthy Mendehall riding the bench means he was unseated.

If I remember correctly, Tomlin didn't activate a healthy Mendenhall for one or two games.



Mendenhall: 51 carries, 182 yards, 3.6YPC
Dwyer: 156 carries, 623 yards, 4.0YPC

Explain to me and everyone else how Mendenhall was the best RB on the team in 2012..

[steeldawg]

Dwyer starting and a healthy Mendehall riding the bench means he was unseated.

If I remember correctly, Tomlin didn't activate a healthy Mendenhall for one or two games.



Mendenhall: 51 carries, 182 yards, 3.6YPC
Dwyer: 156 carries, 623 yards, 4.0YPC

Explain to me and everyone else how Mendenhall was the best RB on the team in 2012..

No unseated means he would of taken his job, not put into a running back by committee situation due to mendy getting injured. Dwyer only played 13 games last season and I think he only started like 6 and didn't have one 20 carry game, starter my ass! Again you over look the obvious if dwyer was so good why did we try to trade him? And then the even more obvious, if dwyer so good why did we cut him? Mendenhall is a week 1 starter, mendenhall was a legitimate starter for the steelers for consecutive years. Dwyer was part of a running back by committee that finished 26th in the league for one season, that fact that I have too even explain the differences between the two is a joke Rashard mendenhall is unquestionably a better back than jonathan dwyer.

[Master Blaster]

It will be musical RBs again.
That is precisely what Tomlin has stated that does not want to happen this season. Bell's being injured changed their plans until he returns to the lineup.

[LLT]

my guess is redman may start but we will see more of jones.

This is probably accurate...Felix is not going to be thrown into the fire without the chance to become more aquainted with the playbook.

[Master Blaster]

no he didn't he played because mendy wasn't healthy, dwyer couldn't hold mendenhalls jock.
:pointlaugh: LMAO! Mendenhall couldn't hold onto his job! He couldn't hold onto the football either. Apparently you failed to mention Mendenhall's fumbling the ball at least two times after he he returned to play. The fact remains that the Steelers were tired of Mendenhall's negative attitude, (getting benched, twice, for failing to put in the required work and effort to get better). Mendenhall is now Arizona's and Bruce Ariens' problem and as far as I'm concerned they can have his pussified ass.

[KeiselPower99]

I guarantee the RB with the most production at the end of the day will be LSH.

[Craic]

Sigh.

Look, let's make it easy:



Mendenhall proved to be a headcase and was benched. That means he wasn't productive, which means EVERY back last year was better than him.
Dwyer wasn't played last year for "Exposure." That's the kind of thinking that goes right along with "Let's lose these games and get a higher draft choice." Just, no. He was played because he was the best choice at the moment. (See number 1).
Dwyer was traded/released because he had a $1.3 million cap hit, which meant that he and Redman were taking up the exact same real estate.
Redman is the better short distance runner, which means Dwyer was the odd man out, with Felix Jones and Bell on the Roster.
We are no more talented this year than we were last year at this point. Bell hasn't proven that he can even play a down in the NFL. Felix Jones is the same talent level as Mendenhall. Redman is still Redman. The only difference is LSH, but he's taking the place of Dwyer, who COULD pound the ball at times, AND Chris Rainey, who showed quite a bit of promise as the third down back. So that is a wash. All in all, same talent level.
Anyone (and yes, SteelDawg, I'm looking at you) that ranks Bell as a great talent, or even good talent, at the NFL level at this point in his career is out of touch with reality. There have literally been HUNDREDS of players drafted higher than him with more "talent" and they failed out of the NFL. There's no reason to believe that Bell won't do the same. There's no reason to believe he will do the same either. In short, he is an unknown commodity who's barely seen the field because of injury. Ranking him or depending on him at this point is utter foolishness. In November, we can revisit this issue.

[steeldawg]

Why cant a guy be talented just because he hasn't played at the nfl level? That's saying your not a good or great talent until you play a game. That is absurd because the entire draft is based on talent, that's why some guys are selected higher than others and paid more than others without taking an nfl snap. Your confusing talent and production, if teams where only started guys based on production no rookies would play.

[Count Steeler]

Draft is a crap shoot. No magic formula because EVERYONE has drafted players and BUSTS. Any round.

[steeldawg]

Draft is a crap shoot. No magic formula because EVERYONE has drafted players and BUSTS. Any round.

Of course but don't you draft based on talent, wether that guy pans out remains to be seen but you take the most talented guy?

[Count Steeler]

Of course but don't you draft based on talent, wether that guy pans out remains to be seen but you take the most talented guy?

Steelers usually are BPA. Let's not forget many criticized them for "reaching" with Bell. Only time will tell on the field. A lot of talented players are selling life insurance.

[steeldawg]

Steelers usually are BPA. Let's not forget many criticized them for "reaching" with Bell. Only time will tell on the field. A lot of talented players are selling life insurance.

The point is you don't take guys who you don't think are good or great talents especially as high round picks. You cant draft a guy based on nfl production because none of them have played in the nfl. So if your the steelers and your unhappy with your running game led by jonathan dwyer and your looking to improve your running game, do you not draft a guy you think is more talented than him?

[Count Steeler]

You take the best player that will hopefully improve your roster. Unfortunately this years RBs were not the greatest batch. The Steelers want a resolution to their RB issue. Dwyer had the opportunity but his attitude failed him. Hopefully Bell is the answer. I'll let you know after he plays a couple of downs.

[steeldawg]

You take the best player that will hopefully improve your roster. Unfortunately this years RBs were not the greatest batch. The Steelers want a resolution to their RB issue. Dwyer had the opportunity but his attitude failed him. Hopefully Bell is the answer. I'll let you know after he plays a couple of downs.

Right but how do you know that player will improve your roster or he is the best player? You are basing your decision on talent, you don't say well nobody in this draft or more talented than what we have so will just take a rb second round and hope he works out.

[Count Steeler]

Right but how do you know that player will improve your roster or he is the best player? You are basing your decision on talent, you don't say well nobody in this draft or more talented than what we have so will just take a rb second round and hope he works out.
If the situation fits, sure you do. If there was a "can't miss" RB he would have been taken first round and then you have a case. This draft was weak at rb and QB. No sure hits in the bunch. Doesn't mean some won't contribute.

[steeldawg]

If the situation fits, sure you do. If there was a "can't miss" RB he would have been taken first round and then you have a case. This draft was weak at rb and QB. No sure hits in the bunch. Doesn't mean some won't contribute.

Not saying he's a cant miss only that he's more talented than dwyer. If we really thought dwyer could start then there was no reason to take a rb in the second. Im just saying the guy is a good talent we wouldn't of drafted him if he wasn't.

[Dwinsgames]

Right but how do you know that player will improve your roster or he is the best player? You are basing your decision on talent, you don't say well nobody in this draft or more talented than what we have so will just take a rb second round and hope he works out.

Bell was NOT the most talented player on the board when we drafted in the second round steeldawg , if that is what you are trying to say above ( the bold ...not sure what you are saying really it looks like a foreigner typed it )

I think time proves there where several players selected after Bell that will have better careers ( I hope I am wrong but I doubt it ) ...

they took him as a NEED pick not BPA pick ...

in fact there are guys taken in the 3rd round ( and lots in the second ) that I contend where / are better prospects , perhaps not RBs but prospects ( further proving he was not BPA )

3rd rounders I think will have equal or better careers than Bell

Damontre Moore

John Jenkins

Tyrann Mathiau

David Amerson


but don't get me wrong I like Bell talked about him in the draft forum but NEVER gave him a second round grade he was a classic reach selection by a team who was compelled to pull out all stops to TRY and improve its running game and here we are less than 24 hours away from the season opener and we still do not know what we got because he has 4 preseason carries under his belt and 2 injuries later we are still waiting ...

Yes there is cause for concern !

[steeldawg]

Bell was NOT the most talented player on the board when we drafted in the second round steeldawg , if that is what you are trying to say above ( the bold ...not sure what you are saying really it looks like a foreigner typed it )

I think time proves there where several players selected after Bell that will have better careers ( I hope I am wrong but I doubt it ) ...

they took him as a NEED pick not BPA pick ...

in fact there are guys taken in the 3rd round ( and lots in the second ) that I contend where / are better prospects , perhaps not RBs but prospects ( further proving he was not BPA )

3rd rounders I think will have equal or better careers than Bell

Damontre Moore

John Jenkins

Tyrann Mathiau

David Amerson


but don't get me wrong I like Bell talked about him in the draft forum but NEVER gave him a second round grade he was a classic reach selection by a team who was compelled to pull out all stops to TRY and improve its running game and here we are less than 24 hours away from the season opener and we still do not know what we got because he has 4 preseason carries under his belt and 2 injuries later we are still waiting ...

Yes there is cause for concern !


No im trying to say exactly what I said he was more talented than dwyer.

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Bell was NOT the most talented player on the board when we drafted in the second round steeldawg , if that is what you are trying to say above ( the bold ...not sure what you are saying really it looks like a foreigner typed it )

I think time proves there where several players selected after Bell that will have better careers ( I hope I am wrong but I doubt it ) ...

they took him as a NEED pick not BPA pick ...

in fact there are guys taken in the 3rd round ( and lots in the second ) that I contend where / are better prospects , perhaps not RBs but prospects ( further proving he was not BPA )

3rd rounders I think will have equal or better careers than Bell

Damontre Moore

John Jenkins

Tyrann Mathiau

David Amerson


but don't get me wrong I like Bell talked about him in the draft forum but NEVER gave him a second round grade he was a classic reach selection by a team who was compelled to pull out all stops to TRY and improve its running game and here we are less than 24 hours away from the season opener and we still do not know what we got because he has 4 preseason carries under his belt and 2 injuries later we are still waiting ...

Yes there is cause for concern !


Count was talking about BPA, I was saying you don't take a guy who you think is less talented than what you have on the roster in the second round.

[Count Steeler]

Not saying he's a cant miss only that he's more talented than dwyer. If we really thought dwyer could start then there was no reason to take a rb in the second. Im just saying the guy is a good talent we wouldn't of drafted him if he wasn't.

Can't say if he is more or less talented than Dwyer. I hope he is a better student of the game and has a better work ethic.

Talent was not Dwyer's undoing. Prep and commitment were.

[Dwinsgames]

Can't say if he is more or less talented than Dwyer. I hope he is a better student of the game and has a better work ethic.

Talent was not Dwyer's undoing. Prep and commitment were.


and THE BOLD is not necessarily his fault , ADD comes into play in terms to preparation and to some degree commitment ( it will look as though you are not committed if you are not totally prepared or do not seem prepared )

[steeldawg]

Can't say if he is more or less talented than Dwyer. I hope he is a better student of the game and has a better work ethic.

Talent was not Dwyer's undoing. Prep and commitment were.

Sure it was, you think if dwyer was top back the steelers wouldnt put up with him showing up to OTA's overweight? of course they would they may fine him but they certainly would not cut a guy that they thought was a starter.

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They where tryng to trade him before OTA's so obviously talent was an issue.

[Count Steeler]

Sure it was, you think if dwyer was top back the steelers wouldnt put up with him showing up to OTA's overweight? of course they would they may fine him but they certainly would not cut a guy that they thought was a starter.


Mendenhall.

[Count Steeler]

And if they were dead set on cutting Dwyer, why give him a chance to stay with the team in pre season? Cut him and give the reps to the backs you are going to commit to for the season.

[Craic]

Why cant a guy be talented just because he hasn't played at the nfl level? That's saying your not a good or great talent until you play a game. That is absurd because the entire draft is based on talent, that's why some guys are selected higher than others and paid more than others without taking an nfl snap. Your confusing talent and production, if teams where only started guys based on production no rookies would play.


The point is you don't take guys who you don't think are good or great talents especially as high round picks. You cant draft a guy based on nfl production because none of them have played in the nfl. So if your the steelers and your unhappy with your running game led by jonathan dwyer and your looking to improve your running game, do you not draft a guy you think is more talented than him?

You're confusing talent at the college level with talent at the NFL level. He has yet to play a game. He has yet to show he can even run a decent swing route or break a tackle or two in the NFL. What may have been high talent at the college level very well might be below average in the NFL. Again, the first round draft dustbin is littered with highly talented guys in college that were busts in the NFL. You, nor I, have ANY idea whether he has ANY talent at all that can match the NFL level of play. That is why I said . . .


Sigh.

Look, let's make it easy:



We are no more talented this year than we were last year at this point. Bell hasn't proven that he can even play a down in the NFL. Felix Jones is the same talent level as Mendenhall. Redman is still Redman. The only difference is LSH, but he's taking the place of Dwyer, who COULD pound the ball at times, AND Chris Rainey, who showed quite a bit of promise as the third down back. So that is a wash. All in all, same talent level.
Anyone (and yes, SteelDawg, I'm looking at you) that ranks Bell as a great talent, or even good talent, at the NFL level at this point in his career is out of touch with reality. There have literally been HUNDREDS of players drafted higher than him with more "talent" and they failed out of the NFL. There's no reason to believe that Bell won't do the same. There's no reason to believe he will do the same either. In short, he is an unknown commodity who's barely seen the field because of injury. Ranking him or depending on him at this point is utter foolishness. In November, we can revisit this issue.




In short, you want to rank him as a good or great talent based on his body of work in much, MUCH inferior league to the NFL. What I, and most others on this board have been saying since we drafted the guy is that there is no way to judge talent until the man puts on pads and plays a game. He hasn't done that yet. Hence, it is worthless to judge his "talent."

[Dwinsgames]

You're confusing talent at the college level with talent at the NFL level. He has yet to play a game. He has yet to show he can even run a decent swing route or break a tackle or two in the NFL. What may have been high talent at the college level very well might be below average in the NFL. Again, the first round draft dustbin is littered with highly talented guys in college that were busts in the NFL. You, nor I, have ANY idea whether he has ANY talent at all that can match the NFL level of play. That is why I said . . .




In short, you want to rank him as a good or great talent based on his body of work in much, MUCH inferior league to the NFL. What I, and most others on this board have been saying since we drafted the guy is that there is no way to judge talent until the man puts on pads and plays a game. He hasn't done that yet. Hence, it is worthless to judge his "talent."

in the case of any draft pick I have always looked at it like this ...

they where talented collegiate's with nfl potential .... Keep in mind Potential is not talent and potential is not always maximized and or realized when entering the next level .... all the kids drafted and undrafted that hit training camps each and every year are the best of the best most of them never obtain the level of notoriety they have dreamed of getting before they find themselves out of work , so having " potential " does not mean your going to be any good when push comes to shove at the highest level of play and you never know for sure what you got from a draft pick until he actually laces them up in live action ... it is then and only then you can call them a player and what they do during that time will define what kind of player they are ... draft status no longer matters after April its what you do in December that makes you or breaks you

[steeldawg]

You're confusing talent at the college level with talent at the NFL level. He has yet to play a game. He has yet to show he can even run a decent swing route or break a tackle or two in the NFL. What may have been high talent at the college level very well might be below average in the NFL. Again, the first round draft dustbin is littered with highly talented guys in college that were busts in the NFL. You, nor I, have ANY idea whether he has ANY talent at all that can match the NFL level of play. That is why I said . . .




In short, you want to rank him as a good or great talent based on his body of work in much, MUCH inferior league to the NFL. What I, and most others on this board have been saying since we drafted the guy is that there is no way to judge talent until the man puts on pads and plays a game. He hasn't done that yet. Hence, it is worthless to judge his "talent."

Again you are confusing talent with production, guys are drafted in NFL draft because they have nfl level talent and how good that nfl level talent is measured by their draft status. You cant judge how that talent will translate into production which is what you are saying and I agree with you. If your being drafted by the nfl then you have nfl level talent.

[Dwinsgames]

Again you are confusing talent with production, guys are drafted in NFL draft because they have nfl level talent and how good that nfl level talent is measured by their draft status. You cant judge how that talent will translate into production which is what you are saying and I agree with you. If your being drafted by the nfl then you have nfl level talent.


don't confuse talent with potential ....

Potential is when people believe you can do something ......

Talent is when you prove you actually can do it .....

[Craic]

Again you are confusing talent with production, guys are drafted in NFL draft because they have nfl level talent and how good that nfl level talent is measured by their draft status. You cant judge how that talent will translate into production which is what you are saying and I agree with you. If your being drafted by the nfl then you have nfl level talent.

Sadly, you don't seem to understand that when a player has NEVER PRODUCED BECAUSE HE HASN'T SEEN THE FIELD . . . there is no way to JUDGE HIS TALENT.

Seriously, this is 1 + 2 = 3 stuff. Until you see the guy play in the NFL, you cannot say he has NFL talent.

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don't confuse talent with potential ....

Potential is when people believe you can do something ......

Talent is when you prove you actually can do it .....

Exactly.

[steeldawg]

Sadly, you don't seem to understand that when a player has NEVER PRODUCED BECAUSE HE HASN'T SEEN THE FIELD . . . there is no way to JUDGE HIS TALENT.

Seriously, this is 1 + 2 = 3 stuff. Until you see the guy play in the NFL, you cannot say he has NFL talent.

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Exactly.



That is crazy, your trying to tell me nfl teams draft these players and pay them millions of dollars not knowing if they have nfl level talent? So a first selection in the NFL draft does not have nfl level talent.

[Craic]

That is crazy, your trying to tell me nfl teams draft these players and pay them millions of dollars not knowing if they have nfl level talent? So a first selection in the NFL draft does not have nfl level talent.

Now you're finally getting it. They have NFL POTENTIAL. Or, POTENTIAL TALENT to play in the NFL, you cannot say with any degree of authority that they actually have the talent until they show it on the field against other NFL Players.

It's the difference between believing, and having verified proof. You can believe they have all the talent in the world, but until there's proof, you CANNOT say that the player is talented. ONly that he played well in college and showed such a high talent level that it looks like he may be able to play well in the NFL.

What you're missing is that this isn't about football. It's about logic and the English language. You're trying to make an absolute statement without any proof of the absolute to back up your statement. The only proof that can be provided for a declarative sentence such as, "So and so has NFL talent," is tape that shows off that talent. And again, there is no way to know if that is enough talent until the person actually plays in the NFL.

It's called having "empirical proof." And until he puts a few games on tape at this level, there is no empirical proof that he has NFL talent. He may have all the signs, he may have a whole lot of potential, but you simply cannot say it is, only that it is potential.

Oh, and not knowing about NFL talent level when drafting? Yep, that's exactly accurate. A first selection in the NFL draft has not SHOWN ANY NFL level talent. Don't put words in my mouth, Steeldawg, I am saying that you cannot say he has the talent because he hasn't shown it. Nobody knows, AND THAT'S THE POINT that we've been hammering on with you all spring. BTW, yeah, first round selection not known if they have NFL talent while paying millions? Let's see:

Cedric Jones, Giants, First round bust.
Todd Blackledge, Chiefs, first round bust.
Tim Couch, Browns first round bust.
Joey Harrington, Detroit Lions first round bust
Akili Smith, Cincinnati Bengals first round bust
Cade McNown, Chicago Bears first round bust
Jim Druckenmiller, San Francisco 49ers first round bust
Heath Shuler, Washington Redskins first round bust
Rick Mirer, Seattle Seahawks first round bust
David Klingler, Cincinnati Bengals first round bust
Dan McGwire, Seattle Seahawks first round bust
Todd Marinovich, Los Angeles Raiders first round bust
Andre Ware, Detroit Lions first round bust
Kelly Stouffer, St. Louis Cardinals first round bust
Chuck Long, Detroit Lions first round bust
Desmond Howard, Redskins first round bust
Mike Williams, Buffalo Bills, first round bust
Andre Wadsworth, Arizona Cardinals, first round bust
Mike Mamula, Philly Eagles, first round bust—he rated so high in his NFL combine that everyone thought he was IT! Not so much. They now call players that have a great combine but not a good career "Mike Mamula Syndrome." So much for "knowing they have the talent."
D. J. Dozier, Minnestora Vikings, First round bust.
BLair Thomas, New York Jets, First round bust.
Ki-Jana Carter, Cinci Bungles, first round bust.
Curtis Enis, Chicago Bears, first round bust.
The "BEST OFFENSIVE LINE PROSPECT EVER" according to SI, Tony Mandarich, Green Bay Packers, first round bust.
Charles Rodgers, Detroit Lions, first round bust.
Ryan Leaf, SD Chargers, first round bust.
Blaine Gabbert, Jacksonville Jas, first round bust
Oh Lord, do we even want to talk about Huey Richardson?
Ron Dayne, NY Giants, first round bust.
Peter Warrick, Bungles, first round bust. Career season high for yards was 819. This was after 32 touchdowns in college. Looked to have all the talent in the world, but it didn't translate to the NFL.
Courtney Brown, Browns, first round bust.
Kelly Stouffer, Cardinals, first round bust.
Then there's Gholston. Enough said.


Try again about teams "knowing" that a first round pick has "NFL talent."

[steeldawg]

Now you're finally getting it. They have NFL POTENTIAL. Or, POTENTIAL TALENT to play in the NFL, you cannot say with any degree of authority that they actually have the talent until they show it on the field against other NFL Players.

It's the difference between believing, and having verified proof. You can believe they have all the talent in the world, but until there's proof, you CANNOT say that the player is talented. ONly that he played well in college and showed such a high talent level that it looks like he may be able to play well in the NFL.

What you're missing is that this isn't about football. It's about logic and the English language. You're trying to make an absolute statement without any proof of the absolute to back up your statement. The only proof that can be provided for a declarative sentence such as, "So and so has NFL talent," is tape that shows off that talent. And again, there is no way to know if that is enough talent until the person actually plays in the NFL.

It's called having "empirical proof." And until he puts a few games on tape at this level, there is no empirical proof that he has NFL talent. He may have all the signs, he may have a whole lot of potential, but you simply cannot say it is, only that it is potential.

Oh, and not knowing about NFL talent level when drafting? Yep, that's exactly accurate. A first selection in the NFL draft has not SHOWN ANY NFL level talent. Don't put words in my mouth, Steeldawg, I am saying that you cannot say he has the talent because he hasn't shown it. Nobody knows, AND THAT'S THE POINT that we've been hammering on with you all spring. BTW, yeah, first round selection not known if they have NFL talent while paying millions? Let's see:

Cedric Jones, Giants, First round bust.
Todd Blackledge, Chiefs, first round bust.
Tim Couch, Browns first round bust.
Joey Harrington, Detroit Lions first round bust
Akili Smith, Cincinnati Bengals first round bust
Cade McNown, Chicago Bears first round bust
Jim Druckenmiller, San Francisco 49ers first round bust
Heath Shuler, Washington Redskins first round bust
Rick Mirer, Seattle Seahawks first round bust
David Klingler, Cincinnati Bengals first round bust
Dan McGwire, Seattle Seahawks first round bust
Todd Marinovich, Los Angeles Raiders first round bust
Andre Ware, Detroit Lions first round bust
Kelly Stouffer, St. Louis Cardinals first round bust
Chuck Long, Detroit Lions first round bust
Desmond Howard, Redskins first round bust
Mike Williams, Buffalo Bills, first round bust
Andre Wadsworth, Arizona Cardinals, first round bust
Mike Mamula, Philly Eagles, first round bust—he rated so high in his NFL combine that everyone thought he was IT! Not so much. They now call players that have a great combine but not a good career "Mike Mamula Syndrome." So much for "knowing they have the talent."
D. J. Dozier, Minnestora Vikings, First round bust.
BLair Thomas, New York Jets, First round bust.
Ki-Jana Carter, Cinci Bungles, first round bust.
Curtis Enis, Chicago Bears, first round bust.
The "BEST OFFENSIVE LINE PROSPECT EVER" according to SI, Tony Mandarich, Green Bay Packers, first round bust.
Charles Rodgers, Detroit Lions, first round bust.
Ryan Leaf, SD Chargers, first round bust.
Blaine Gabbert, Jacksonville Jas, first round bust
Oh Lord, do we even want to talk about Huey Richardson?
Ron Dayne, NY Giants, first round bust.
Peter Warrick, Bungles, first round bust. Career season high for yards was 819. This was after 32 touchdowns in college. Looked to have all the talent in the world, but it didn't translate to the NFL.
Courtney Brown, Browns, first round bust.
Kelly Stouffer, Cardinals, first round bust.
Then there's Gholston. Enough said.


Try again about teams "knowing" that a first round pick has "NFL talent."

They where busts because they didn't PRODUCE in the nfl not because their football talent wasn't at an nfl level. There is a reason we have the combine and pro days and scouting, they are not pulling guys out of hat. Saying a guy is not talented enough to play in the nfl until he takes a snap is ridiculous. If an nfl team scouts a guy hes got nfl type talent, if a guy is drafted by an nfl team he has nfl type talent, if a guy gets to the point of taking an nfl snap he obviously has nfl type talent because he's playing in a game. At any level you have successful players you have unsuccessful players, you have winners you have losers but just because someone is not successful at that level doesn't mean they weren't talented it just means they weren't successful.

[Steeldude]

They where busts because they didn't PRODUCE in the nfl not because their football talent wasn't at an nfl level. There is a reason we have the combine and pro days and scouting, they are not pulling guys out of hat. Saying a guy is not talented enough to play in the nfl until he takes a snap is ridiculous. If an nfl team scouts a guy hes got nfl type talent, if a guy is drafted by an nfl team he has nfl type talent, if a guy gets to the point of taking an nfl snap he obviously has nfl type talent because he's playing in a game. At any level you have successful players you have unsuccessful players, you have winners you have losers but just because someone is not successful at that level doesn't mean they weren't talented it just means they weren't successful.

Then you are saying Kordell was a talented QB, but not successful. You are saying Dwyer is a talented RB, but not successful.

[steeldawg]

Then you are saying Kordell was a talented QB, but not successful. You are saying Dwyer is a talented RB, but not successful.

Im saying they have or had nfl level talent. You have to be talented to a certain level to get to the nfl, its not like they have open tryouts where anyone can come out.

[Steeldude]

Im saying they have or had nfl level talent. You have to be talented to a certain level to get to the nfl, its not like they have open tryouts where anyone can come out.

Ah, but Kordell is not a talented QB. That's proven by his play on the field. He was untalented and unsuccessful as a QB in the NFL. As a WR he was talented.

A player can be quite the talent in college, but that does not mean his talents will translate well in the NFL.

[Dwinsgames]

That is crazy, your trying to tell me nfl teams draft these players and pay them millions of dollars not knowing if they have nfl level talent? So a first selection in the NFL draft does not have nfl level talent.


I will agree it is crazy and that is why we now have a rookie cap .... but that is where the my agreeing ends

how many first round busts need there be in history to answer that for you ?



this ring any bells

2007
1
1
1
JaMarcus Russell
Raiders
QB
Louisiana State



also 2007 4th over all pick


1
4
4
Gaines Adams
Buccaneers
DE
Clemson




how about this 3rd over all selection in 2006 not a bust but one could find this kind of longevity and talent in round 6 for close to league min pay yet he got millions



1
3
3
Vince Young
Titans
QB
Texas



10th over all same year also got millions




1
10
10
Matt Leinart
Cardinals
QB
USC




not enough for you ???

lets look at 2005 where ANY of these guys worthy of millions in their rookie deal ( or any deal for that matter ?? ) the top 7 over all picks looks like a rag tag group for the middle rounds to me



2005
1
1
1
Alex Smith
49ers
QB
Utah



1
2
2
Ronnie Brown
Dolphins
RB
Auburn



1
3
3
Braylon Edwards
Browns
WR
Michigan



1
4
4
Cedric Benson
Bears
RB
Texas



1
5
5
Cadillac Williams
Buccaneers
RB
Auburn



1
6
6
Pacman Jones
Titans
DB
West Virginia



1
7
7
Troy Williamson
Vikings
WR
South Carolina




I just picked out a few there are TONS more , especially in the second round ( each round you get more and more guys who prove they can NOT play at the NFL level that had POTENTIAL to be NFL players but lacked the ability to actually do it ( in other words they did not have NFL Talent )

http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php (http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/rounds/round_1)

go to teams and look at the Steelers recent history in the second round it is far from a lock they make a good pick just because it is a high pick ... second round for us has been historically as bad as our first round picks have been good

[steeldawg]

Ah, but Kordell is not a talented QB. That's proven by his play on the field. He was untalented and unsuccessful as a QB in the NFL. As a WR he was talented.

A player can be quite the talent in college, but that does not mean his talents will translate well in the NFL.

No he was talented, he played 7+ years as a qb in the nfl so to say he was untalented is not accurate. He was talented enough to get drafted as a receiver and transition to qb at the highest level of football so the talent was obviously there. Basically what your saying is the only way to judge talent is in hindsight and that's not true you can have nfl talent coming out of college and get injured before you take a snap in the nfl that doesn't make you untalented. kordell stewart was obviously talented enough to get on an nfl roster so the nfl thought his talent was of nfl caliber. Talent does not equal production, that I agree with but saying nobody can have nfl talent without taking a snap in the nfl is absurd. Heck there are guys in different sports that are talented enough to play in the nfl, does that mean they will be successful certainly not but the talent is still there.

[steeldawg]

I will agree it is crazy and that is why we now have a rookie cap .... but that is where the my agreeing ends

how many first round busts need there be in history to answer that for you ?



this ring any bells

2007
1
1
1
JaMarcus Russell
Raiders
QB
Louisiana State



also 2007 4th over all pick


1
4
4
Gaines Adams
Buccaneers
DE
Clemson




how about this 3rd over all selection in 2006 not a bust but one could find this kind of longevity and talent in round 6 for close to league min pay yet he got millions



1
3
3
Vince Young
Titans
QB
Texas



10th over all same year also got millions




1
10
10
Matt Leinart
Cardinals
QB
USC




not enough for you ???

lets look at 2005 where ANY of these guys worthy of millions in their rookie deal ( or any deal for that matter ?? ) the top 7 over all picks looks like a rag tag group for the middle rounds to me



2005
1
1
1
Alex Smith
49ers
QB
Utah



1
2
2
Ronnie Brown
Dolphins
RB
Auburn



1
3
3
Braylon Edwards
Browns
WR
Michigan



1
4
4
Cedric Benson
Bears
RB
Texas



1
5
5
Cadillac Williams
Buccaneers
RB
Auburn



1
6
6
Pacman Jones
Titans
DB
West Virginia



1
7
7
Troy Williamson
Vikings
WR
South Carolina



draft busts have nothing to do with what I am saying, the point is the guys in the nfl draft are talented guys that's why they are in the nfl draft. Teams feel that these guys have nfl talent. Im not talking about what they will produce in the nfl at all not saying bell will be the greatest runningback only that he is a talented back. Teams are not giving contracts to guys who don't have nfl talent. Teams don't say we don't know if this guy has talent or not lets draft him and find out. No they say this guy has nfl speed nfl size hes agile he makes nfl runs then they determine what round they take him. The entire nfl draft is based on talent! Its imposible to draft a guy based on his end of career stats!

[Dwinsgames]

draft busts have nothing to do with what I am saying, the point is the guys in the nfl draft are talented guys that's why they are in the nfl draft. Teams feel that these guys have nfl talent. Im not talking about what they will produce in the nfl at all not saying bell will be the greatest runningback only that he is a talented back. Teams are not giving contracts to guys who don't have nfl talent. Teams don't say we don't know if this guy has talent or not lets draft him and find out. No they say this guy has nfl speed nfl size hes agile he makes nfl runs then they determine what round they take him. The entire nfl draft is based on talent! Its imposible to draft a guy based on his end of career stats!


see the red ??? that means POTENTIAL ( they feel like they have the talent ) ....
see the blue ??? NFL teams do it all the time ( every rookie contract made is done on believing they can be a good player """"potential""""" when their second contract is worth 8 digits or more its because they now KNOW they have talent

- - - Updated - - -


Now you're finally getting it. They have NFL POTENTIAL. Or, POTENTIAL TALENT to play in the NFL, you cannot say with any degree of authority that they actually have the talent until they show it on the field against other NFL Players.

It's the difference between believing, and having verified proof. You can believe they have all the talent in the world, but until there's proof, you CANNOT say that the player is talented. ONly that he played well in college and showed such a high talent level that it looks like he may be able to play well in the NFL.

What you're missing is that this isn't about football. It's about logic and the English language. You're trying to make an absolute statement without any proof of the absolute to back up your statement. The only proof that can be provided for a declarative sentence such as, "So and so has NFL talent," is tape that shows off that talent. And again, there is no way to know if that is enough talent until the person actually plays in the NFL.

It's called having "empirical proof." And until he puts a few games on tape at this level, there is no empirical proof that he has NFL talent. He may have all the signs, he may have a whole lot of potential, but you simply cannot say it is, only that it is potential.

Oh, and not knowing about NFL talent level when drafting? Yep, that's exactly accurate. A first selection in the NFL draft has not SHOWN ANY NFL level talent. Don't put words in my mouth, Steeldawg, I am saying that you cannot say he has the talent because he hasn't shown it. Nobody knows, AND THAT'S THE POINT that we've been hammering on with you all spring. BTW, yeah, first round selection not known if they have NFL talent while paying millions? Let's see:

Cedric Jones, Giants, First round bust.
Todd Blackledge, Chiefs, first round bust.
Tim Couch, Browns first round bust.
Joey Harrington, Detroit Lions first round bust
Akili Smith, Cincinnati Bengals first round bust
Cade McNown, Chicago Bears first round bust
Jim Druckenmiller, San Francisco 49ers first round bust
Heath Shuler, Washington Redskins first round bust
Rick Mirer, Seattle Seahawks first round bust
David Klingler, Cincinnati Bengals first round bust
Dan McGwire, Seattle Seahawks first round bust
Todd Marinovich, Los Angeles Raiders first round bust
Andre Ware, Detroit Lions first round bust
Kelly Stouffer, St. Louis Cardinals first round bust
Chuck Long, Detroit Lions first round bust
Desmond Howard, Redskins first round bust
Mike Williams, Buffalo Bills, first round bust
Andre Wadsworth, Arizona Cardinals, first round bust
Mike Mamula, Philly Eagles, first round bust—he rated so high in his NFL combine that everyone thought he was IT! Not so much. They now call players that have a great combine but not a good career "Mike Mamula Syndrome." So much for "knowing they have the talent."
D. J. Dozier, Minnestora Vikings, First round bust.
BLair Thomas, New York Jets, First round bust.
Ki-Jana Carter, Cinci Bungles, first round bust.
Curtis Enis, Chicago Bears, first round bust.
The "BEST OFFENSIVE LINE PROSPECT EVER" according to SI, Tony Mandarich, Green Bay Packers, first round bust.
Charles Rodgers, Detroit Lions, first round bust.
Ryan Leaf, SD Chargers, first round bust.
Blaine Gabbert, Jacksonville Jas, first round bust
Oh Lord, do we even want to talk about Huey Richardson?
Ron Dayne, NY Giants, first round bust.
Peter Warrick, Bungles, first round bust. Career season high for yards was 819. This was after 32 touchdowns in college. Looked to have all the talent in the world, but it didn't translate to the NFL.
Courtney Brown, Browns, first round bust.
Kelly Stouffer, Cardinals, first round bust.
Aaron Curry 2009 Seattle Mel Kiper claimed he was a can't miss prospect that was NFL ready ( now out of the league after bouncing around 3 or 4 teams in quick fashion )
Then there's Gholston. Enough said.


Try again about teams "knowing" that a first round pick has "NFL talent."


fixed it for ya :eyebrows:

[Texasteel]

Not going to get into the word game of talent or potential, but I will say that I think there is a difference between collage talent and nfl talent. I will say that talent can be effected by several things, including not being able to adjust to the speed, and increased talent in the nfl, injuries, and just plain being a head case. I believe this is why a player does have to prove themselves in TC, and most of all, on the field.

[steeldawg]

Not going to get into the word game of talent or potential, but I will say that I think there is a difference between collage talent and nfl talent. I will say that talent can be effected by several things, including not being able to adjust to the speed, and increased talent in the nfl, injuries, and just plain being a head case. I believe this is why a player does have to prove themselves in TC, and most of all, on the field.

Of course there is a difference that's why only 1.7% of college players go pro, those 1.7% have nfl level talent. Denard robinson is a perfect example he played his entire career as a qb for Michigan but wasn't drafted as a qb. his talent for football was good enough to be drafted by an nfl team even outside of his position.

[Count Steeler]

:ball::ball::ball::ball:

[steeldawg]

see the red ??? that means POTENTIAL ( they feel like they have the talent ) ....
see the blue ??? NFL teams do it all the time ( every rookie contract made is done on believing they can be a good player """"potential""""" when their second contract is worth 8 digits or more its because they now KNOW they have talent

- - - Updated - - -




fixed it for ya :eyebrows:

But their potential is based off of their talent otherwise why not just put anyone out there. they draft nfl talent because nfl talent has the potential to succeed in the nfl. Think about it when you say this guy has the potential to be an nfl player why are you saying that are you not looking at his talent or do you just see anyone holding a football as having potential to play in the league.

[Texasteel]

Of course there is a difference that's why only 1.7% of college players go pro, those 1.7% have nfl level talent. Denard robinson is a perfect example he played his entire career as a qb for Michigan but wasn't drafted as a qb. his talent for football was good enough to be drafted by an nfl team even outside of his position.

Damn dawg........ you just agreed with me.

[Dwinsgames]

But their potential is based off of their talent otherwise why not just put anyone out there. they draft nfl talent because nfl talent has the potential to succeed in the nfl.


Talent is something that is recognized by success at the level in which you are playing ....

so until you actually obtain success at doing it at that level , you only have perceived talent and that amounts to nothing more than potential ....

Potential is perceived talent , actual Talent is successful results of playing at the level you are playing at ......

if you can not differentiate between the two after all this I can't help you

[steeldawg]

Damn dawg........ you just agreed with me.

lol, I just thin when an nfl team goes after a guy in the draft especially at a high draft position they look at his talent as being of nfl caliber. I don't agree with the idea that nfl talent level can only be judged after a players career has panned out.

[steeldawg]

Talent is something that is recognized by success at the level in which you are playing ....

so until you actually obtain success at doing it at that level , you only have perceived talent and that amounts to nothing more than potential ....

Potential is perceived talent , actual Talent is successful results of playing at the level you are playing at ......

if you can not differentiate between the two after all this I can't help you


archaic : a characteristic feature, aptitude, or disposition of a person or animal


3

: the natural endowments of a person


4

a : a special often athletic, creative, or artistic aptitude

You can have nfl talent without playing in the nfl! Nfl scout talented players who have the skill sets to play at an nfl level. You are not going to be looked at as having potential to play in the nfl unless you display nfl qualities.

[Dwinsgames]

archaic : a characteristic feature, aptitude, or disposition of a person or animal


3

: the natural endowments of a person


4

a : a special often athletic, creative, or artistic aptitude

You can have nfl talent without playing in the nfl! Nfl scout talented players who have the skill sets to play at an nfl level. You are not going to be looked at as having potential to play in the nfl unless you display nfl qualities.


you do not have NFL talent until it is proven that you do anything less is PERCEIVED = : to become aware of through the senses; especially:see (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/see),observe (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/observe) so until you SEE it or observe it at the NFL level it is not NFL talent it is perceived talent and that is nothing more than potential 1po·ten·tial

adjective\pə-ˈten(t)-shəl\1
: existing in possibility : capable of development into actuality <potential benefits>


game /set /match


or this

http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/chess_surender.gif

[steeldawg]

you do not have NFL talent until it is proven that you do anything less is PERCEIVED = : to become aware of through the senses; especially:see (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/see),observe (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/observe) so until you SEE it or observe it at the NFL level it is not NFL talent it is perceived talent and that is nothing more than potential 1po·ten·tial

adjective\pə-ˈten(t)-shəl\1
: existing in possibility : capable of development into actuality <potential benefits>


game /set /match





their talent is the actuality!!! The production and success is the potential! Their talent is the reason they have potential

[Nadroj 20]

their talent is the actuality!!! The production and success is the potential! Their talent is the reason they have potential

Proof is the actuality. If they prove it then their potential is fulfilled. No doubt they have talent or else they wouldn't have the opportunity. Still have to produce results though and only then can you say their true talent has been displayed and their potential achieved.

[steeldawg]

Proof is the actuality. If they prove it then their potential is fulfilled. No doubt they have talent or else they wouldn't have the opportunity. Still have to produce results though and only then can you say their true talent has been displayed and their potential achieved.

Thank you! all I was trying to say!

[86WARD]

He may want to think again...

[fansince'76]

He may want to think again...

:chuckle:

[Count Steeler]

For the record, Mendy 16 carries, 60 yards.

[86WARD]

For the record, Mendy 16 carries, 60 yards.

Lol...

[Craic]

This is PRICELESS!


Proof is the actuality. If they prove it then their potential is fulfilled. No doubt they have talent or else they wouldn't have the opportunity. Still have to produce results though and only then can you say their true talent has been displayed and their potential achieved.


Thank you! all I was trying to say!

Hmm, Really? Then why are you disagreeing with me?



It's called having "empirical proof." And until he puts a few games on tape at this level, there is no empirical proof that he has NFL talent. He may have all the signs, he may have a whole lot of potential, but you simply cannot say it is, only that it is potential.

Oh, and not knowing about NFL talent level when drafting? Yep, that's exactly accurate. A first selection in the NFL draft has not SHOWN ANY NFL level talent. Don't put words in my mouth, Steeldawg, I am saying that you cannot say he has the talent because he hasn't shown it. that we've been hammering on with you all spring. BTW, yeah, first round selection not known if they have NFL talent while paying millions?


Absolutely Priceless!

[Nadroj 20]

I thought the same thing preacher lol

I wasn't sure why he agreed with me when I was siding with everyone else in the thread.

[steeldawg]

This is PRICELESS!





Hmm, Really? Then why are you disagreeing with me?



Absolutely Priceless!

Because you are saying there is no way to know if a guy has talent before he plays, he said "of course they have talent or else they wouldn't have the opportunity" and what you put in bold only says that when they produce you can say their talent has translated into production. But of course they already have talent before it can be translated to production.

- - - Updated - - -


I thought the same thing preacher lol

I wasn't sure why he agreed with me when I was siding with everyone else in the thread.

Really because you made the same point ive been making all day. Do you agree that nfl teams draft guys based on talent?

[LLT]

Because you are saying there is no way to know if a guy has talent before he plays, he said "of course they have talent or else they wouldn't have the opportunity" and what you put in bold only says that when they produce you can say their talent has translated into production. But of course they already have talent before it can be translated to production.

- - - Updated - - -



Really because you made the same point ive been making all day. Do you agree that nfl teams draft guys based on talent?

No...they draft based on PERCIEVED talent. True "Empirical" talent cant be assessed until they actually play.

[steeldawg]

No...they draft based on PERCIEVED talent. True "Empirical" talent cant be assessed until they actually play.

Well by perceiving talent that means you become aware of it by seeing it. They don't draft guys who don't have talent for the game. Production cannot be assest until they play, the talent that is recognized is what gets them the opportunity to play.

[Dwinsgames]

Well by perceiving talent that means you become aware of it by seeing it. They don't draft guys who don't have talent for the game. Production cannot be assest until they play, the talent that is recognized is what gets them the opportunity to play.

perceived VS lesser talented amateur players in the Collegiate ranks , not perceived vs the guys they will face on Sundays there in lies the difference ....

a man among boys does not mean a man among-st men

[steeldawg]

perceived VS lesser talented amateur players in the Collegiate ranks , not perceived vs the guys they will face on Sundays there in lies the difference ....

Nfl scouts look for specific traits in a player to know if he's talented enough to play in the nfl. The talent is scouted, they don't just pick guys out of hat.

[Dwinsgames]

Nfl scouts look for specific traits in a player to know if he's talented enough to play in the nfl. The talent is scouted, they don't just pick guys out of hat.


Really ?

and that is why 100% of the guys drafted end up in Canton right ? oh wait they don't do they ...

that is why 100% of the guys drafted start as rookies .... oh wait ....

that is why 100% of the guys drafted make the team ..... oh wait ....

how many draft busts need there be , need you be shown for you to understand just because someone plays well in College is NO indication how he will pan out in the NFL it is 100% projection based on indicators that can very often be misleading ending up in a failed prospect and wasted draft pick or draft pick that does not pan out how you anticipate them too .....

look at the last 20 years of steelers second round picks as an example of such they miss on picks just as often as they get them right in the second round http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/teams/steelers the second round is NOT pretty

[steeldawg]

Really ?

and that is why 100% of the guys drafted end up in Canton right ? oh wait they don't do they ...

that is why 100% of the guys drafted start as rookies .... oh wait ....

that is why 100% of the guys drafted make the team ..... oh wait ....

how many draft busts need there be , need you be shown for you to understand just because someone plays well in College is NO indication how he will pan out in the NFL it is 100% projection based on indicators that can very often be misleading ending up in a failed prospect and wasted draft pick or draft pick that does not pan out how you anticipate them too .....

look at the last 20 years of steelers second round picks as an example of such they miss on picks just as often as they get them right in the second round http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/teams/steelers the second round is NOT pretty

Again it has nothing to do with production are we to believe everyone who doesn't get to canton does not have nfl talent? So the guys ho don't start don't have nfl talent? Anyone who gets cut doesn't have nfl talent? Bs if your good enough to be scouted and drafted by nfl scouts that means your talent for football is at an nfl level, if you bust or make it to canton doesn't diminish the fact that your talent level was of nfl caliber. There is a reason less than 2% of college players make it to the pros because they have rare talent, theyre not picked by nfl teams by luck a lot of advanced scouting goes into picking a player years of tape study and on field scouting, nfl combine where every single measurable is there for a team to scrutinize. Teams don't go into the draft and say we are going to draft a 2,000 yard rusher, no they say we are going to draft this guy who runs a 4.4 220lbs 6' we like his ability to read blocks, his quick feet, soft hands ,great agility, whatever talent is catching the interest of that team. You hear it all the time in MLB when they say this guy has big league stuff or in the nfl when a guy being drafted is called prototypical.

[Dwinsgames]

Again it has nothing to do with production are we to believe everyone who doesn't get to canton does not have nfl talent? So the guys ho don't start don't have nfl talent? Anyone who gets cut doesn't have nfl talent? Bs if your good enough to be scouted and drafted by nfl scouts that means your talent for football is at an nfl level, if you bust or make it to canton doesn't diminish the fact that your talent level was of nfl caliber. There is a reason less than 2% of college players make it to the pros because they have rare talent, theyre not picked by nfl teams by luck a lot of advanced scouting goes into picking a player years of tape study and on field scouting, nfl combine where every single measurable is there for a team to scrutinize. Teams don't go into the draft and say we are going to draft a 2,000 yard rusher, no they say we are going to draft this guy who runs a 4.4 220lbs 6' we like his ability to read blocks, his quick feet, soft hands ,great agility, whatever talent is catching the interest of that team. You hear it all the time in MLB when they say this guy has big league stuff or in the nfl when a guy being drafted is called prototypical.


Thank God you do not work for the Steelers . I would recommend you to Ozzie Newsome though , I may have a bit of trouble getting his phone number though ....

Getting drafted DOES NOT mean you have NFL Talent or everyone drafted would be in the league for at least 1 season , hell making the team does not mean you have NFL talent all it means is you are the best of what they have to pick from at that point in time ....

I am 100% certain guys all over the league have been cut by teams that could have made other teams but are instead flipping burgers now impart because of salary cap issues in some teams ( such as the steelers ) and the limited amount of time from final cuts to regular season games start there is just not enough acclimation time to have them ready to play ....... some of those guys would make some of ours out of football hence lacking NFL talent ...

hey everybody Alonzo Jackson had NFL talent according to steeldawg

[Count Steeler]

:baby::baby::bored:

[steeldawg]

Thank God you do not work for the Steelers . I would recommend you to Ozzie Newsome though , I may have a bit of trouble getting his phone number though ....

Getting drafted DOES NOT mean you have NFL Talent or everyone drafted would be in the league for at least 1 season , hell making the team does not mean you have NFL talent all it means is you are the best of what they have to pick from at that point in time ....

I am 100% certain guys all over the league have been cut by teams that could have made other teams but are instead flipping burgers now impart because of salary cap issues in some teams ( such as the steelers ) and the limited amount of time from final cuts to regular season games start there is just not enough acclimation time to have them ready to play ....... some of those guys would make some of ours out of football hence lacking NFL talent ...

hey everybody Alonzo Jackson had NFL talent according to steeldawg

Ok then if you get drafted into the nfl what kind of talent do you have?

[LLT]

Well by perceiving talent that means you become aware of it by seeing it. They don't draft guys who don't have talent for the game. Production cannot be assest until they play, the talent that is recognized is what gets them the opportunity to play.

The scouts become aware of COLLEGE talent...not NFL talent. Thats what you are missing. The NFL is a whole new world of commitement...speed...intelligence...and durability. It weeds out the slackers...the learning impaired...and those who were the recipients fo a college system that was built to pad their numbers.

College stats and production are only an INDICATION of possible NFL talent.

NFL production is the ONLY indication of true NFL talent.

[Dwinsgames]

Ok then if you get drafted into the nfl what kind of talent do you have?


draft picks are prospects ........

[LLT]

Ok then if you get drafted into the nfl what kind of talent do you have?

COLLEGE talent.

[Nadroj 20]

Because you are saying there is no way to know if a guy has talent before he plays, he said "of course they have talent or else they wouldn't have the opportunity" and what you put in bold only says that when they produce you can say their talent has translated into production. But of course they already have talent before it can be translated to production.

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Really because you made the same point ive been making all day. Do you agree that nfl teams draft guys based on talent?

No I didn't. That talent I speak of is at the collegiate level. The highest level they've played at therefore the only evaluation of their talent. They are drafted based off how talented they are in college and based off their POTENTIAL for the professional level.

The only way to know for sure that someone has the ability to play in the NFL is for them to prove it. Consistently may I add.

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Ok then if you get drafted into the nfl what kind of talent do you have?

Enough to be drafted in the NFL. At that point that's it.

Until they show otherwise.

[tube517]

:baby::baby::bored:

:lol:

[Craic]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9uqt4OI7b1r13ipfo1_400.gif

[Master Blaster]

lol, I just thin when an nfl team goes after a guy in the draft especially at a high draft position they look at his talent as being of nfl caliber. I don't agree with the idea that nfl talent level can only be judged after a players career has panned out.
To those NFL teams I say, tell that to all of the undrafted free agents that proved to be far better than the league's GM's and scouts pegged them as being. It also proves that a player's measurables do not define his ability, or lack thereof.

[steeldawg]

To those NFL teams I say, tell that to all of the undrafted free agents that proved to be far better than the league's GM's and scouts pegged them as being. It also proves that a player's measurables do not define his ability, or lack thereof.

No a players measurables " measure" his ability what they don't measure is a players success or production. Also it doesn't matter if an undrafted free agent outperforms a draft pick the point is the guy had to have nfl talent to get to the nfl. Even guys who have bad careers have nfl talent, the nfl is a collection of the best football talent on the planet, to even make an nfl team is a testament to a guys football talent.

[dislocatedday]

I know none of us have seen Bell in actual NFL action yet (...beyond those measly 4 carries in preseason..), but the one telling thing to me in the case of Bell is that his teammates, coaching staff, and the local Steelers beat writers all raved about him during training camp. From what I read, it seemed to be clearly obvious to all of them that Bell was a much higher caliber RB than anyone else on the roster. Even some of the national media who visited Steelers camp saw something special in this kid. Does that make him a guaranteed success and future pro bowler?....no....but it does make me think that the likelihood of him being a bust is highly unlikely. Now, if the blocking in front of Bell does not improve when he comes back we may not really see what he can do for quite awhile.

[katmandu]

Bell expected to be out another MONTH !!

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000242646/article/steelers-leveon-bell-expected-to-miss-another-month

[Dwinsgames]

No a players measurables " measure" his POTENTIAL ability.

fixed it for you

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Bell expected to be out another MONTH !!

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000242646/article/steelers-leveon-bell-expected-to-miss-another-month


no shocker there

[Psycho Ward 86]

Bell expected to be out another MONTH !!

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000242646/article/steelers-leveon-bell-expected-to-miss-another-month

with our O-line, its not like his return would make much of any difference. But i am tired of Tomlin giving ambiguous or incorrect press where it is not necessary. its hard to believe in some of the stuff he says anymore (and no, this is not a knee jerk reaction and has nothing to do with losing to the titans)

[Master Blaster]

with our O-line, its not like his return would make much of any difference. But i am tired of Tomlin giving ambiguous or incorrect press where it is not necessary. its hard to believe in some of the stuff he says anymore (and no, this is not a knee jerk reaction and has nothing to do with losing to the titans)
Seeing what transpired on the field this past weekend I can agree with your comment. We all heard Tomlin say that he wants his team to play physical hard nosed football. I hope that he got a good look at how the Titans played against his team because they were more physical than his team was. Word to Tomlin, don't sing it, bring it.

[steeldawg]

fixed it for you

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no shocker there

Oh so now players do not have talent or ability to play in the nfl until they play. I wonder if a team will give me a shot, after all they don't know if I can play at an nfl level until I take an nfl snap. I can just hear our GM now, We don't now if you have the abilty to play this game son, but we think you have the potential to have ability, just sign on the dotted line we will get you a uniform put you on the field and lets see if some ability and talent happens for you.

[Dwinsgames]

Oh so now players do not have talent or ability to play in the nfl until they play. I wonder if a team will give me a shot, after all they don't know if I can play at an nfl level until I take an nfl snap. I can just hear our GM now, We don't now if you have the abilty to play this game son, but we think you have the potential to have ability, just sign on the dotted line we will get you a uniform put you on the field and lets see if some ability and talent happens for you.


its not just now ...its always been ...

you have college ability when drafted with Potential NFL ability , you only have the ability when you prove you have it ... nobody hands the keys to the car to a kid who just took his written drivers permit test and says here ya go kid take my Mercedes for a spin with your buddies ...

you first get instruction with an adult that has a license and then take a behind the wheel test before you are ever handed to keys to go out on your own .... only when you prove to the testing officer you can drive are you said to have the ability to do so ....

same thing with football you have to prove worthy before you are said to be worthy ....

but I could give you 10,000 different scenarios and you still won't get it ..... concrete has a way of having things bounce off of it and absorbs very little

[steeldawg]

its not just now ...its always been ...

you have college ability when drafted with Potential NFL ability , you only have the ability when you prove you have it ... nobody hands the keys to the car to a kid who just took his written drivers permit test and says here ya go kid take my Mercedes for a spin with your buddies ...

you first get instruction with an adult that has a license and then take a behind the wheel test before you are ever handed to keys to go out on your own .... only when you prove to the testing officer you can drive are you said to have the ability to do so ....

same thing with football you have to prove worthy before you are said to be worthy ....

but I could give you 10,000 different scenarios and you still won't get it ..... concrete has a way of having things bounce off of it and absorbs very little

No you don't! your ability is of an nfl caliber that's what seperates from the other college players your playing with.

[Steeldude]

No you don't! your ability is of an nfl caliber that's what seperates from the other college players your playing with.

It's "potential". Unless you are claiming to see the future again.

[steeldawg]

It's "potential". Unless you are claiming to see the future again.

See what future you don't think an nfl draft pick has nfl ability and talent, again we are not talking about production. You don't draft a guy with the potential to have ability or talent you draft a guy with talent and ability because he has the potential to be successful.

[Count Steeler]

http://images.tvrage.com/news/all-in-the-family-episode-reflects-today-s-pro-gun-argument-40-years-ago.jpg

[Count Steeler]

http://youtu.be/LzJH9qi9jCY

[LLT]

See what future you don't think an nfl draft pick has nfl ability and talent, again we are not talking about production. You don't draft a guy with the potential to have ability or talent you draft a guy with talent and ability because he has the potential to be successful.

Ugh...you draft a guy with COLLEGE talent, ability, and production...and the POTENTIAL to translate that talent, ability, and production to the NFL level.

Why is this so hard for you to admit? Its pretty basic.

[steeldawg]

Ugh...you draft a guy with COLLEGE talent, ability, and production...and the POTENTIAL to translate that talent, ability, and production to the NFL level.

Why is this so hard for you to admit? Its pretty basic.

So why not draft any college player? then why such a small percentage of college players going pro? Nfl scouts are not scouting college players looking for college talent and ability, they are looking for nfl talent nfl ability nfl skill set.

[Dwinsgames]

No you don't! your ability is of an nfl caliber that's what seperates from the other college players your playing with.


holly shit and all these years we have been calling it college ball what the hell was we thinking they need to rename that shit so we all do not get confused because clearly you are not on every website in the world to explain it to everyone ....

I will send my letter to the NCAA tonight telling them to rename College football to NFL Proving Grounds so nobody is confused in the future ...

what would we ever do without you and your wealth of insightfullness .....

http://www.treybailey.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/crystal-ball.jpg

[Count Steeler]

So why not draft any college player? then why such a small percentage of college players going pro? Nfl scouts are not scouting college players looking for college talent and ability, they are looking for nfl talent nfl ability nfl skill set.

And they fail as often as they succeed.

If your premise is correct, ALL 1st and 2nd round picks would surely be successful in the NFL. After all they are the elite of the talent pool and surely clearly head and shoulders above any of the other talent in the draft. So if one were to look at an NFL team's roster, all of their 1st and 2nd round draft picks for the past 5-7 years would surely be on the roster of the teams that drafted them.

I mean surely, the NFL teams are smart enough to pick the 64 sure bets out of a college pool that is in the thousands.

[LLT]

So why not draft any college player? then why such a small percentage of college players going pro? Nfl scouts are not scouting college players looking for college talent and ability, they are looking for nfl talent nfl ability nfl skill set.

Try and follow.

NFL scouts make draft recomendations based on a players POTENTIAL. They use 1) production 2) talent/ability 3) work ethic 4) character 5) intelligence ...and even such things as what type of "scheme" their college program ran. Any of those things or the lack of these things, can make a draft prospects position rise or fall in the draft. But NONE of those things are a lock as to a college players NFL success. Its an inexact science which I have heard described as more of a lottery than a science.

The simple proof that what you are saying is ....WRONG...lies in players like JaMarcus Russel, Jarvis Moss, and Tedd Ginn who all had "talent and ability" but where not NFL caliber players due to lacking something from the above equation.

[steeldawg]

Ugh...you draft a guy with COLLEGE talent, ability, and production...and the POTENTIAL to translate that talent, ability, and production to the NFL level.

Why is this so hard for you to admit? Its pretty basic.

Nfl scouts do not look for guys with college talent they are looking for elite talent nfl level talent. They scout college players based on their skill set speed size hands route running and the ones who have do these things at an nfl level go pro. The scouts don't look how many catches or yards a guy got against nowhere state, they looking at his route running play recognition, speed, hands, agility. The talent level is nfl caliber that's why nfl scouts are scouting that player. Do you think a person can be drafted in the nfl draft without ever playing football?

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And they fail as often as they succeed.

If your premise is correct, ALL 1st and 2nd round picks would surely be successful in the NFL. After all they are the elite of the talent pool and surely clearly head and shoulders above any of the other talent in the draft. So if one were to look at an NFL team's roster, all of their 1st and 2nd round draft picks for the past 5-7 years would surely be on the roster of the teams that drafted them.

I mean surely, the NFL teams are smart enough to pick the 64 sure bets out of a college pool that is in the thousands.

No it has nothing to do with production you can still have nfl level talent and ability and not be successful in the nfl!

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Try and follow.

NFL scouts make draft recomendations based on a players POTENTIAL. They use 1) production 2) talent/ability 3) work ethic 4) character 5) intelligence ...and even such things as what type of "scheme" their college program ran. Any of those things or the lack of these things, can make a draft prospects position rise or fall in the draft. But NONE of those things are a lock as to a college players NFL success. Its an inexact science which I have heard described as more of a lottery than a science.

The simple proof that what you are saying is ....WRONG...lies in players like JaMarcus Russel, Jarvis Moss, and Tedd Ginn who all had "talent and ability" but where not NFL caliber players due to lacking something from the above equation.

NOT TALKING ABOUT A PLAYERS SUCCESS IN THE NFL!!! You just said it nfl are prospects are scouted by ability/talent which means the talent and ability to play nfl level football is there. What they where arguing they said potential ability and potential talent. The whole reason they are being scouted is because the talent is there the potential is for production.

[Master Blaster]

See what future you don't think an nfl draft pick has nfl ability and talent, again we are not talking about production. You don't draft a guy with the potential to have ability or talent you draft a guy with talent and ability because he has the potential to be successful.
True. Yet, there are countless examples of teams becoming enamored with a player's physical potential to be successful only to discover that after they draft him the player lacks the mental ability to cut it in the NFL. Teams are leery of workout warriors and gym rats because more often than not, they flame out once they get to an NFL training camp because they don't have the cerebral capacity to cut it.

[Dwinsgames]

Nfl scouts do not look for guys with college talent they are looking for elite talent nfl level talent. They scout college players based on their skill set speed size hands route running and the ones who have do these things at an nfl level go pro. The scouts don't look how many catches or yards a guy got against nowhere state, they looking at his route running play recognition, speed, hands, agility. The talent level is nfl caliber that's why nfl scouts are scouting that player. Do you think a person can be drafted in the nfl draft without ever playing football?

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No it has nothing to do with production you can still have nfl level talent and ability and not be successful in the nfl!

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NOT TALKING ABOUT A PLAYERS SUCCESS IN THE NFL!!! You just said it nfl are prospects are scouted by ability/talent which means the talent and ability to play nfl level football is there. What they where arguing they said potential ability and potential talent. The whole reason they are being scouted is because the talent is there the potential is for production.

OH REALLY ??????

then what is this steeldawg please explain this we are ALL waiting .....



Antonio Gates. While Gates did go to college, the tight end actually went and played basketball for four years. When his talent as a basketball player didn't take him the route that he wanted to go, he turned to football and ended up getting picked up by the San Diego Chargers without playing a single down since his senior year of high school.




Eric Swann. Swann was set to go to North Carolina State but was ruled as academically ineligible, setting his career off on a different path. Swann played for a semi-professional football team in Massachusetts before entering the draft in 1991 and going as the sixth draft pick in the first round by the Phoenix Cardinals. He never played a down in football and realized his dream through what was considered an unorthodox route, which rarely ever happens.




Vince Papale. Most notable for being the subject of the movie "Invicible," which is based on his life, Papale was a track star in college who didn't touch a football field until he tried out for a semi-professional football team once out of college. His performance on that team earned him a meeting with Dick Vermeil of the Philadelphia Eagles. At age 30, he became the oldest rookie in professional football and played two years before a shoulder injury halted his career.






Ray Seals. Seals didn't attend college but became quite possibly the most successful person to never set foot in an institution after starting in Super Bowl XXX with the Pittsburgh Steelers. The defensive end played on three different teams throughout his illustrious career and is seen as an inspiration to young players who cannot get into college to play football.





Darren Bennett. The Australian-born Bennett contacted the San Diego Chargers while on his honeymoon (http://www.mademan.com/lifes-a-beach-so-go-somewhere-else-cool-honeymoon-destinations/?lc=int_mb_1001) in California and received a private meeting where he impressed the team enough to be offered a formal contract. He played Australian rules football for twelve seasons beforehand, but did not go to college before entering the NFL to play a prosperous number of seasons which resulted in a number of Pro Bowl starts.

These men are all inspirations to people and are proof that college isn't always the way to realize a dream. Three of these five men did not attend college at all and still went on to NFL careers, while two of them opted out of football but still found the NFL looking in their direction. While college is always a good answer to any question, these men will tell the world that sometimes heart is all that is needed.


Read more: http://www.mademan.com/mm/5-nfl-players-did-not-go-college.html#ixzz2edSdmxrO

[steeldawg]

True. Yet, there are countless examples of teams becoming enamored with a player's physical potential to be successful only to discover that after they draft him the player lacks the mental ability to cut it in the NFL. Teams are leery of workout warriors and gym rats because more often than not, they flame out once they get to an NFL training camp because they don't have the cerebral capacity to cut it.

And that's true not saying talent makes them a lock to do anything in the nfl, simply saying that their talent is elite and that's why they are getting an opportunity at an nfl job. But talent is what seperates your decent college player from your nfl prospect.

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OH REALLY ??????

then what is this steeldawg please explain this we are ALL waiting .....



Antonio Gates. While Gates did go to college, the tight end actually went and played basketball for four years. When his talent as a basketball player didn't take him the route that he wanted to go, he turned to football and ended up getting picked up by the San Diego Chargers without playing a single down since his senior year of high school.

Eric Swann. Swann was set to go to North Carolina State but was ruled as academically ineligible, setting his career off on a different path. Swann played for a semi-professional football team in Massachusetts before entering the draft in 1991 and going as the sixth draft pick in the first round by the Phoenix Cardinals. He never played a down in football and realized his dream through what was considered an unorthodox route, which rarely ever happens.







Vince Papale. Most notable for being the subject of the movie "Invicible," which is based on his life, Papale was a track star in college who didn't touch a football field until he tried out for a semi-professional football team once out of college. His performance on that team earned him a meeting with Dick Vermeil of the Philadelphia Eagles. At age 30, he became the oldest rookie in professional football and played two years before a shoulder injury halted his career.






Ray Seals. Seals didn't attend college but became quite possibly the most successful person to never set foot in an institution after starting in Super Bowl XXX with the Pittsburgh Steelers. The defensive end played on three different teams throughout his illustrious career and is seen as an inspiration to young players who cannot get into college to play football.





Darren Bennett. The Australian-born Bennett contacted the San Diego Chargers while on his honeymoon (http://www.mademan.com/lifes-a-beach-so-go-somewhere-else-cool-honeymoon-destinations/?lc=int_mb_1001) in California and received a private meeting where he impressed the team enough to be offered a formal contract. He played Australian rules football for twelve seasons beforehand, but did not go to college before entering the NFL to play a prosperous number of seasons which resulted in a number of Pro Bowl starts.

These men are all inspirations to people and are proof that college isn't always the way to realize a dream. Three of these five men did not attend college at all and still went on to NFL careers, while two of them opted out of football but still found the NFL looking in their direction. While college is always a good answer to any question, these men will tell the world that sometimes heart is all that is needed.


Read more: http://www.mademan.com/mm/5-nfl-players-did-not-go-college.html#ixzz2edSdmxrO

OMG you just made my point I was going to actually use carl lewis and and bob hayes as my example! But you you provided plenty thank you. These guys where sought out by nfl teams because they have nfl level ability, Drafted from a pure talent standpoint.

[LLT]

And that's true not saying talent makes them a lock to do anything in the nfl, simply saying that their talent is elite and that's why they are getting an opportunity at an nfl job. But talent is what seperates your decent college player from your nfl prospect.

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OMG you just made my point I was going to actually use carl lewis and and bob hayes as my example! But you you provided plenty thank you. These guys where sought out by nfl teams because they have nfl level ability, Drafted from a pure talent standpoint.

And this folks ...is a person backed into a corner...playing with and twisting words ...and backpedaling like college cornerback with NFL "potential".

[Dwinsgames]

And that's true not saying talent makes them a lock to do anything in the nfl, simply saying that their talent is elite and that's why they are getting an opportunity at an nfl job. But talent is what seperates your decent college player from your nfl prospect.

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OMG you just made my point I was going to actually use carl lewis and and bob hayes as my example! But you you provided plenty thank you. These guys where sought out by nfl teams because they have nfl level ability, Drafted from a pure talent standpoint.


I didn't make your point at all you said """"" Do you think a person can be drafted in the nfl draft without ever playing football? """"

but you have also said .......""" people don't get picked off the streets and not anybody can try out """"

yet the guys I just posted did not play College football and still carved out nice (very nice ) NFL careers ...

I disproved what you have said not proved it ....

[steeldawg]

And this folks ...is a person backed into a corner...playing with and twisting words ...and backpedaling like college cornerback with NFL "potential".

Really show me where I twisted my words! Show me, come on slick post it post where I said talent translates to success in the nfl. Lets go im ready for it! You sir cannot argue my point that nfl level talent and ability exsists before someone reaches the nfl and that's what affords a person the opportunity at an nfl position. You cant have nfl potential without talent otherwise what would the nfl potential be based on? Go ahead post some more failed draft picks that have nothing to do with what im talking about.

[steeldawg]

I didn't make your point at all you said """"" Do you think a person can be drafted in the nfl draft without ever playing football? """"

but you have also said .......""" people don't get picked off the streets and not anybody can try out """"

yet the guys I just posted did not play College football and still carved out nice (very nice ) NFL careers ...

I disproved what you have said not proved it ....

Yes I did say that meaning they don't just pick anyone because they base it on talent they didn't grab Antonio gates walking down the sidewalk! And "Do you think a person can be drafted without playing in the nfl?" was a question not a statement genius. The fact people with talent can be drafted without playing football makes my point that they draft based on talent. It completely makes my point, Antonio gates did not have potential talent, he had talent which gave him the potential to succeed in the nfl, argument over thanks for playing.

[Master Blaster]

And that's true not saying talent makes them a lock to do anything in the nfl, simply saying that their talent is elite and that's why they are getting an opportunity at an nfl job. But talent is what seperates your decent college player from your nfl prospect.

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OMG you just made my point I was going to actually use carl lewis and and bob hayes as my example! But you you provided plenty thank you. These guys where sought out by nfl teams because they have nfl level ability, Drafted from a pure talent standpoint.
That's an erroneous statement based on the examples in the information D. provided. Not all of the players were sought out by NFL teams. There are examples that show the player sought out the team. The same can be said for many free agent walk-ons. Many received try outs based on a recommendation from a friend, a colleague, a high school coach, or an ex college teammate already in the league.

[steeldawg]

That's an erroneous statement based on the examples in the information D. provided. Not all of the players were sought out by NFL teams. There are examples that show the player sought out the team. The same can be said for many free agent walk-ons. Many received try outs based on a recommendation from a friend, a colleague, a high school coach, or an ex college teammate already in the league.

Yes so when they tried out for these teams and made an nfl team did they not display nfl level talent? cant make an nfl team without the team wanting you regardless of contacted who.

[Dwinsgames]

my point that nfl level talent and ability exsists before someone reaches the nfl and that's what affords a person the opportunity at an nfl position. You cant have nfl potential without talent otherwise what would the nfl potential be based on? Go ahead post some more failed draft picks that have nothing to do with what im talking about.


High level College Talent and ability = NFL Prospect ...

Prospect = Potential

Potential = MAYBE but not certainty

if you can not understand that you are dumber than a football bat ....

but the real issue here is not whether or not you truly understand it or not ...

the real issue is you like to argue , and or you have a character flaw that does not allow you to admit being wrong ....

because of the lack of ability to reason with you , going on with this or any discussion with you is pointless ...

Have a nice life .. I'm out

[LLT]

Really show me where I twisted my words! Show me, come on slick post it post where I said talent translates to success in the nfl. Lets go im ready for it! You sir cannot argue my point that nfl level talent and ability exsists before someone reaches the nfl and that's what affords a person the opportunity at an nfl position. You cant have nfl potential without talent otherwise what would the nfl potential be based on? Go ahead post some more failed draft picks that have nothing to do with what im talking about.

Thats the entire point..SLICK...you spend half your arguemnet trying to say anyone who is drafted into the NFL has NFL talent...yet when faced with the reality that some players cant make it in the NFL you REFUSE to admit they DONT have NFL talent.

Any type of broad brush statement that claims that no NFL team...at any time...has ever....drafted a player that didnt have NFL talent....is INCREDIBLY naive and uniformed

[steeldawg]

Thats the entire point..SLICK...you spend half your arguemnet trying to say anyone who is drafted into the NFL has NFL talent...yet when faced with the reality that some players cant make it in the NFL you REFUSE to admit they DONT have NFL talent.

No again they didn't have nfl success that doesn't mean that their football talent and ability isn't on par with nfl standards. You have to have elite football talent to even ride the bench in the nfl.

[Master Blaster]

Yes so when they tried out for these teams and made an nfl team did they not display nfl level talent?
You conveniently strayed away from the subject of my post.

[LLT]

the real issue here is not whether or not you truly understand it or not ...

the real issue is you like to argue , and or you have a character flaw that does not allow you to admit being wrong ....



This

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No again they didn't have nfl success that doesn't mean that their football talent and ability isn't on par with nfl standards. You have to have elite football talent to even ride the bench in the nfl.

and I repeat...Any type of broad brush statement that claims that no NFL team...at any time...has ever....drafted a player that didnt have NFL talent....is INCREDIBLY naive and uniformed.

[steeldawg]

This


Funny I will just say the same thing to you.

[Master Blaster]

This
That character flaw being, attention deficit disorder.

[LLT]

Funny I will just say the same thing to you.

Really?...did you REALLY just use the "i Know you are but what am I", line?

[Master Blaster]

Really?...did you REALLY just use the "i Know you are but what am I", line?
Yup.

[Count Steeler]

No again they didn't have nfl success that doesn't mean that their football talent and ability isn't on par with nfl standards. You have to have elite football talent to even ride the bench in the nfl.

That has to be one of the funniest things I have ever read. So, Mr. steeldawg, Guy Whimper has elite NFL talent?

Ladies and gentlemen, our worries are over. We have elite football talent riding our bench.

[tube517]

http://cdn.head-fi.org/7/76/76d31508_c851d40e_Derail_1.jpeg :chuckle:

[Psycho Ward 86]

That has to be one of the funniest things I have ever read. So, Mr. steeldawg, Guy Whimper has elite NFL talent?

Ladies and gentlemen, our worries are over. We have elite football talent riding our bench.

to be fair he did say elite football talent, not elite NFL talent. but this thread is still comical

[steeldawg]

That's good news for the 2014 class, which features an eye-popping 25 quarterbacks with NFL-level talent. Not all 25 QBs are seniors, as we could see an influx of underclassmen ready to take the league by storm.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1705663-previewing-the-top-25-quarterbacks-for-the-2014-nfl-draft

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That has to be one of the funniest things I have ever read. So, Mr. steeldawg, Guy Whimper has elite NFL talent?

Ladies and gentlemen, our worries are over. We have elite football talent riding our bench.

I didn't say elite nfl talent, I said elite football talent. All the guys in the league have elite football talent that's why they are selected to an elite football league.

[zulater]

Did this thread once have a point? :doh:

[Mistah Q]

Drfinking draghnts is onlihny e one of mnhy manhyh talengts

[Psycho Ward 86]

Drfinking draghnts is onlihny e one of mnhy manhyh talengts

MVP


most valuable post. at least in this thread.