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View Full Version : Isaac Redman remains ahead of Dwyer in PIT



polamalubeast
08-27-2013, 11:30 AM
Isaac Redman will be the Steelers' starter while Le'Veon Bell (foot) is sidelined.
Bell isn't expected back until Week 3 or 4 at the earliest. That leaves the Steelers with the unholy quarter of Redman, Jonathan Dwyer, LaRod Stephens-Howling and Felix Jones. Although Redman has been nursing a stinger, he's a coaching staff favorite and the most reliable option. Dwyer and whoever wins the change-of-pace job will also see work as part of a committee. It's a low-upside situation for fantasy owners.

Source: Dale Lolley on Twitter


http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/267538/Isaac-Redman-remains-ahead-of-Dwyer-in-PIT?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Steeldude
08-27-2013, 11:52 AM
I wonder if this slimmed down version of Redman is going to be effective.

Dwinsgames
08-27-2013, 11:56 AM
I wonder if this slimmed down version of Redman is going to be effective.


I am concerned that he has not got the live reps under his belt to consider him the starter , IMO that is a mistake ... Dwyer should be starting period ...

reasons ...

1) slightly better blocker

2) more dynamic runner

3) has the reps under his belt thus more ready

steeldawg
08-27-2013, 12:23 PM
Steelers do not like Dwyer if bell didn't get hurt I don't think Dwyer even makes the team

steel9guy
08-27-2013, 12:54 PM
I"m taking Dwyer over Redman at this point. I'd take Felix over both until Bell gets healthy.

Dwinsgames
08-27-2013, 01:07 PM
Steelers do not like Dwyer if bell didn't get hurt I don't think Dwyer even makes the team


kinda like if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle ...gotcha

it does not take much of a football IQ to SEE Dwyer is the most capable every down back on the team that is able to play RIGHT NOW

steelreserve
08-27-2013, 04:04 PM
I bet we get a long look at Jones for the last preseason game. Minus Bell and Howling, we've got some pretty crappy options in front of us.

Anyone know how Howling is doing, anyway? I heard he had a mild knee sprain after the second game, but honestly have not seen much about it after that. Will he be ready for the season?

TomlinSteelTribe
08-27-2013, 11:42 PM
I don't think Redman has the edge at all. With his lack of preseason reps, Dwyer will get first crack at the starting job. LSH as the 3rd down back. Whether Tomlin wants to admit it or not, we're going into the season with a similar committee/ride-the-hot-hand approach as last year.

blitz
08-28-2013, 12:30 AM
Dwyer will be cut or traded.

Seven
08-28-2013, 12:34 AM
I think Dwyer is the superior player but it seems like the Steelers are more loyal to Redman, maybe for good reason. I think Stephens-Howling and Jones both make the team. Stephens-Howling because he's one hell of a player and Felix Jones because there is still upside there - I don't think they traded for him to cut him, I think that was a deliberate move. So it seems to me Dwyer and Redman are really competing not just for the starting job, but possibly even a roster spot. Hopefully this is all irrelevant and Bell comes back strong sooner than later.

steelerdude15
08-28-2013, 12:48 AM
If it were my decision, I would start Johnny in week one. I say this because he has more reps then his peers, has had a good preseason running the ball other than a couple of mistakes here and there, and knows the play book. Issac has barely had any reps this preseason, Felix doesn't know the play book since he just got here, and Stephen and Le'Veon are hurt and haven't played much.

steeldawg
08-28-2013, 05:46 AM
kinda like if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle ...gotcha

it does not take much of a football IQ to SEE Dwyer is the most capable every down back on the team that is able to play RIGHT NOW

I don't think its really a gap at all between the 2 backs, They can make all the same runs, blocking is almost equal, redman much better short yardage runner, redman better receiver. Im not saying redman is a clear cut choice but neither is dwyer.

86WARD
08-28-2013, 06:06 AM
Dwyer >>>>>>> Redman. He's been proving it for 2 seasons...lol

Nadroj 20
08-28-2013, 10:04 AM
So far this preseason there has only been one back that has made some good double digit yardage runs and that is Dwyer. He is the only back that has had any success so far running the ball.

Dwyer is above Redman at this point.

Chidi29
08-28-2013, 10:17 AM
What do reps matter at this point? We're not talking about a rookie vs a veteran. We're talking about two guys that have been starters before and gotten a lot of regular season reps. Redman doesn't need reps. Sure, they're nice to have, but he's not too bad off not getting them in the preseason. He knows what the regular season is all about.

Dwyer still has terrible vision. I'll take Redman. At least he's a downhill guy.

Dwinsgames
08-28-2013, 10:21 AM
What do reps matter at this point? We're not talking about a rookie vs a veteran. We're talking about two guys that have been starters before and gotten a lot of regular season reps. Redman doesn't need reps. Sure, they're nice to have, but he's not too bad off not getting them in the preseason. He knows what the regular season is all about.

Dwyer still has terrible vision. I'll take Redman. At least he's a downhill guy.


I am surprised at you on this Chidi , certainly you ( of all people here ) should realize that running behind a power blocking scheme and running behind a ZBS are two different animals and reps are important to make the adjustment , Redman has not had those reps ...

Psycho Ward 86
08-28-2013, 11:20 AM
I am surprised at you on this Chidi , certainly you ( of all people here ) should realize that running behind a power blocking scheme and running behind a ZBS are two different animals and reps are important to make the adjustment , Redman has not had those reps ...

Redman has dropped weight as well, better suiting him for the ZBS most likely. i agree with Chidi. hard to tell, but ill take Red. He has always been good when healthy. Remember, he did start last season with a high ankle sprain

Dwinsgames
08-28-2013, 02:24 PM
Redman has dropped weight as well, better suiting him for the ZBS most likely. i agree with Chidi. hard to tell, but ill take Red. He has always been good when healthy. Remember, he did start last season with a high ankle sprain


there in lies the key words ....

starting this season with a shoulder stinger ....

his biggest asset was power running and short yardage , dropping the weight probably hurt that ability , question is did anything get better by being lighter ??? we have no clue because he has not been playing because once again he is hurt

Craic
08-28-2013, 03:17 PM
there in lies the key words ....

starting this season with a shoulder stinger ....

his biggest asset was power running and short yardage , dropping the weight probably hurt that ability , question is did anything get better by being lighter ??? we have no clue because he has not been playing because once again he is hurt

Yep, and as Willie P. found out, if you can't stay healthy, you can't stay in the Black and Gold.

Chidi29
08-28-2013, 07:18 PM
I am surprised at you on this Chidi , certainly you ( of all people here ) should realize that running behind a power blocking scheme and running behind a ZBS are two different animals and reps are important to make the adjustment , Redman has not had those reps ...

The ZBS is not that difficult of a concept. It's an easy concept and easy for a RB to pick up (find the bubble, read the helmets of the DL, go where they aren't). And while the physical reps present some value, he's still getting plenty of mental reps. With everything he had in the spring and before he got nicked.

And we're not running outside zone every single play. There's still a ton of power, man schemes. Still seeing a lot of Power O.

Psycho Ward 86
08-28-2013, 08:31 PM
there in lies the key words ....

starting this season with a shoulder stinger ....

his biggest asset was power running and short yardage , dropping the weight probably hurt that ability , question is did anything get better by being lighter ??? we have no clue because he has not been playing because once again he is hurt

you mean kind of like leveon bell? i think we'll be fine

Shoes
08-28-2013, 09:11 PM
What do reps matter at this point? We're not talking about a rookie vs a veteran. We're talking about two guys that have been starters before and gotten a lot of regular season reps. Redman doesn't need reps. Sure, they're nice to have, but he's not too bad off not getting them in the preseason. He knows what the regular season is all about.

Dwyer still has terrible vision. I'll take Redman. At least he's a downhill guy.

........and hands worse than Ike's. :chuckle:

Seven
08-28-2013, 09:21 PM
What do reps matter at this point? We're not talking about a rookie vs a veteran. We're talking about two guys that have been starters before and gotten a lot of regular season reps. Redman doesn't need reps. Sure, they're nice to have, but he's not too bad off not getting them in the preseason. He knows what the regular season is all about.

Dwyer still has terrible vision. I'll take Redman. At least he's a downhill guy.

I still don't get your disdain for Dwyer. He consistently racks up yards after contact. So saying he isn't a downhill runner just isn't correct; whether you like the way he looks doing it or not. I can buy the stamina knock on him, maybe even a questioning of his work ethic. But vision and grit? I'm still surprised when I see you say things disparaging regarding those qualities as they relate to Dwyer. It seems irrationally inaccurate. As I said all last season, style points don't matter. Yards per tout is king. And Dwyer brings it in that department.

Dwinsgames
08-28-2013, 09:33 PM
I still don't get your disdain for Dwyer. He consistently racks up yards after contact. So saying he isn't a downhill runner just isn't correct; whether you like the way he looks doing it or not. I can buy the stamina knock on him, maybe even a questioning of his work ethic. But vision and grit? I'm still surprised when I see you say things disparaging regarding those qualities as they relate to Dwyer. It seems irrationally inaccurate. As I said all last season, style points don't matter. Yards per tout is king. And Dwyer brings it in that department.


its another Willie Parker take away the long runs scenario .....

steelerdude15
08-28-2013, 09:49 PM
What do reps matter at this point? We're not talking about a rookie vs a veteran. We're talking about two guys that have been starters before and gotten a lot of regular season reps. Redman doesn't need reps. Sure, they're nice to have, but he's not too bad off not getting them in the preseason. He knows what the regular season is all about.

Dwyer still has terrible vision. I'll take Redman. At least he's a downhill guy.

I feel reps matter because one running back will be rusty against other teams while one running back will be have some reps and will be a little bit more warmed up compared to his counterpart. That's why I think reps do matter. Its why I wonder how RGIII will do against Philly in week one since he didn't play in the preseason.

Shoes
08-28-2013, 10:05 PM
I feel reps matter because one running back will be rusty against other teams while one running back will be have some reps and will be a little bit more warmed up compared to his counterpart. That's why I think reps do matter. Its why I wonder how RGIII will do against Philly in week one since he didn't play in the preseason.

.......and if he is outstanding? :chuckle:

steelerdude15
08-28-2013, 10:07 PM
[/B]

.......and if he is outstanding? :chuckle:


Then I'll never come back to this forum... but when I do come back, I will admit I was wrong! :chuckle:

Shoes
08-28-2013, 10:12 PM
Then I'll never come back to this forum... but when I do come back, I will admit I was wrong! :chuckle:

:chuckle:

Chidi29
08-28-2013, 11:00 PM
I still don't get your disdain for Dwyer. He consistently racks up yards after contact. So saying he isn't a downhill runner just isn't correct; whether you like the way he looks doing it or not. I can buy the stamina knock on him, maybe even a questioning of his work ethic. But vision and grit? I'm still surprised when I see you say things disparaging regarding those qualities as they relate to Dwyer. It seems irrationally inaccurate. As I said all last season, style points don't matter. Yards per tout is king. And Dwyer brings it in that department.

If your YPC is coming because the OL is blocking really well or the defense just sucks, then who you have at RB doesn't matter.

I've pointed out Dwyer's terrible vision and need to bounce plays he shouldn't throughout the preseason. He's supposed to be a downhill runner and he wants to take everything to the outside. If we're talking about being successful in a ZBS, you need to have good vision. That's the point of the scheme. That's why it was created.

I rarely question things like work ethic because you don't see it. I question his vision because it's painfully obvious in the preseason. And against Washington? Lot of yards came off of the Redskins' safety taking horrible angles. Dwyer isn't doing anything special.

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its another Willie Parker take away the long runs scenario .....

Ha...no. I'm talking about his god awful vision.

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I feel reps matter because one running back will be rusty against other teams while one running back will be have some reps and will be a little bit more warmed up compared to his counterpart. That's why I think reps do matter. Its why I wonder how RGIII will do against Philly in week one since he didn't play in the preseason.

There are tons of cases of guys not playing/being limited in the preseason because of injury and then coming in Week One and doing fine. The fact the team is holding him out as a precaution tells you they don't care about the reps in this game. And obviously, even if he did play, he'd only play one or two series.

fansince'76
08-28-2013, 11:06 PM
If your YPC is coming because the OL is blocking really well or the defense just sucks, then who you have at RB doesn't matter.

I've pointed out Dwyer's terrible vision and need to bounce plays he shouldn't throughout the preseason. He's supposed to be a downhill runner and he wants to take everything to the outside. If we're talking about being successful in a ZBS, you need to have good vision. That's the point of the scheme. That's why it was created.

I rarely question things like work ethic because you don't see it. I question his vision because it's painfully obvious in the preseason. And against Washington? Lot of yards came off of the Redskins' safety taking horrible angles. Dwyer isn't doing anything special.

Or he cuts inside when he should cut outside. There was one run in particular against KC that he could have possibly broken open if his field vision was better. And for as big as he is, he should be breaking tackles - instead, he's taken down WAY too easy, IMO. I'm not a real big fan of Dwyer either.

Seven
08-28-2013, 11:18 PM
If your YPC is coming because the OL is blocking really well or the defense just sucks, then who you have at RB doesn't matter. That would be fair if the other backs were putting up the same numbers as he. But behind the same line last season, they weren't.

Chidi29
08-28-2013, 11:24 PM
That would be fair if the other backs were putting up the same numbers as he. But behind the same line last season, they weren't.

That's the issue. You're equating pure numbers with talent. Not always the case. The tape tells me a different story. I pointed it out last year and I've pointed it out multiple times this preseason already.

Seven
08-28-2013, 11:36 PM
That's the issue. You're equating pure numbers with talent. Not always the case. The tape tells me a different story. I pointed it out last year and I've pointed it out multiple times this preseason already.

I'm not equating numbers with talent. I'm equating numbers with production. Dwyer out produced the competition last season and he's continuing to do so. Talent is a matter of opinion. I think he's a more talented player than you do, but I can't prove that. What I can prove is Jonathan Dwyer gains more yards per time he touches the ball than any other back we have. What good did Rashard Mendenhall's talent do us if it didn't facilitate yards gained? We've had this same debate halfway through last season or so, I don't think we need to rehash it again. It just surprises me that you think guys like a Redman, Mendenhall, Batch, etc... would give us a better weapon in the backfield when a year's worth of production doesn't bear that out. Pretty big sample size to ignore because you don't think a player has good vision.

steeldawg
08-29-2013, 05:41 AM
That's the issue. You're equating pure numbers with talent. Not always the case. The tape tells me a different story. I pointed it out last year and I've pointed it out multiple times this preseason already.

I agree the guy consistently makes the wrong cuts and unless he has a huge hole at the line of scrimmage he's gaining nothing or losing yards. I also think they want redman because he's a better pass catcher and route runner.

Dwinsgames
08-29-2013, 07:00 AM
all the talent in the world does the team ZERO good if that talent does not translate to production ....

I will take production 10 times out of 10 comparing Redman to Dwyer it is very easy to see who produces at the higher level ...

Production puts you in position to win games

Talent doesn't win games , production does ...

Nadroj 20
08-29-2013, 07:39 AM
Wrong cuts blah blah. He's the only back so far that has done anything this preseason. At least he's gotten to the second level.

He would be fine.

Shoes
08-29-2013, 07:43 AM
Wrong cuts blah blah. He's the only back so far that has done anything this preseason. At least he's gotten to the second level.

He would be fine.

He's the only back who played this preseason. :chuckle:

Chidi29
08-29-2013, 08:41 AM
I'm not equating numbers with talent. I'm equating numbers with production. Dwyer out produced the competition last season and he's continuing to do so. Talent is a matter of opinion. I think he's a more talented player than you do, but I can't prove that. What I can prove is Jonathan Dwyer gains more yards per time he touches the ball than any other back we have. What good did Rashard Mendenhall's talent do us if it didn't facilitate yards gained? We've had this same debate halfway through last season or so, I don't think we need to rehash it again. It just surprises me that you think guys like a Redman, Mendenhall, Batch, etc... would give us a better weapon in the backfield when a year's worth of production doesn't bear that out. Pretty big sample size to ignore because you don't think a player has good vision.

Let's not act like Dwyer averaged 5 YPC last season. He didn't. It was 4.0 which is average. Yes, Redman was worse but maybe all the 3rd and short work skewed the numbers, I dunno.And the big games Dwyer had like against Cincy or Washington? Huge holes created by Willie Colon on Power O. It would be impossible not to be productive in that game. Redman, Dwyer, heck, even Baron Batch would have had a great game. And it was in one of those games I noted that Dwyer wasn't breaking tackles and couldn't do anything in the open field (he still pretty much can't).

The fact Redman started the year as the #1 and Dwyer the #4 tells you all you need to know even after Dwyer outproduced Redman in 2012.

Seven
08-29-2013, 09:33 AM
Let's not act like Dwyer averaged 5 YPC last season. He didn't. It was 4.0 which is average. Yes, Redman was worse but maybe all the 3rd and short work skewed the numbers, I dunno.And the big games Dwyer had like against Cincy or Washington? Huge holes created by Willie Colon on Power O. It would be impossible not to be productive in that game. Redman, Dwyer, heck, even Baron Batch would have had a great game. And it was in one of those games I noted that Dwyer wasn't breaking tackles and couldn't do anything in the open field (he still pretty much can't).

The fact Redman started the year as the #1 and Dwyer the #4 tells you all you need to know even after Dwyer outproduced Redman in 2012.

Anything below 3.9 - 4 YPC is unacceptable from a running back who wants to start in my opinion. You're absolutely right it's average, but that's the point. He's average where Redman is poor. I'm not dismissing your points, I'm sure they are founded on what you've seen. I just see too many 'if this's' and 'because of that's' in your reasoning. There comes a time when you have to play the guy who is the most productive. And again, we've had an entire season of this so it's not like you can say there isn't a big enough sample size or it's a fluke.

Psycho Ward 86
08-29-2013, 11:37 AM
Anything below 3.9 - 4 YPC is unacceptable from a running back who wants to start in my opinion. You're absolutely right it's average, but that's the point. He's average where Redman is poor. I'm not dismissing your points, I'm sure they are founded on what you've seen. I just see too many 'if this's' and 'because of that's' in your reasoning. There comes a time when you have to play the guy who is the most productive. And again, we've had an entire season of this so it's not like you can say there isn't a big enough sample size or it's a fluke.

isaac redman started the year with a high ankle sprain. So there was never a big enough sample size, and it's not a fluke. When he has been been healthy, he has been the best short yardage back in the league and churned out games along the lines of 19 carries/4.8 YPC/92 yards/1 TD (in 3 quarters), 17 carries/7.1 YPC/121 yards, and 26 carries/5.7 YPC/147 yards/1 TD. just my opinion i suppose.

Chidi29
08-29-2013, 03:25 PM
Anything below 3.9 - 4 YPC is unacceptable from a running back who wants to start in my opinion. You're absolutely right it's average, but that's the point. He's average where Redman is poor. I'm not dismissing your points, I'm sure they are founded on what you've seen. I just see too many 'if this's' and 'because of that's' in your reasoning. There comes a time when you have to play the guy who is the most productive. And again, we've had an entire season of this so it's not like you can say there isn't a big enough sample size or it's a fluke.

Love how you set the benchmark right below where Dwyer was at.

Just answer why Redman was still the starter and Dwyer buried on the depth chart and fighting to keep his roster spot when Dwyer outproduced Redman last season.

Count Steeler
08-29-2013, 03:35 PM
Love how you set the benchmark right below where Dwyer was at.

Just answer why Redman was still the starter and Dwyer buried on the depth chart and fighting to keep his roster spot when Dwyer outproduced Redman last season.

If he could stay on the field for more than 2 carries in a row, he would be taken more seriously. Overweight, out of shape are not the terms you want to be known by.

Chidi29
08-29-2013, 03:40 PM
If he could stay on the field for more than 2 carries in a row, he would be taken more seriously. Overweight, out of shape are not the terms you want to be known by.

Well being able to stay on the field is kind of an issue when talking about you're starting RB. Not productive if you're wheezing on the sideline.

Count Steeler
08-29-2013, 03:50 PM
Well being able to stay on the field is kind of an issue when talking about you're starting RB. Not productive if you're wheezing on the sideline.

Exactly. He had tweeted that he was coming in the best shape of his life. Maybe he has small lungs?

Chidi29
08-29-2013, 03:52 PM
Exactly. He had tweeted that he was coming in the best shape of his life. Maybe he has small lungs?

Yeah after he ballooned in the spring and Tomlin chewed him out for it.

LLT
08-29-2013, 04:19 PM
So far this preseason there has only been one back that has made some good double digit yardage runs and that is Dwyer. He is the only back that has had any success so far running the ball.

Dwyer is above Redman at this point.


Agreed...but I think there is a paradox in that Dwyer may indeed be the better player AND someone that the Steelers may eventually trade or cut. The Steelers have been successful because the rarely look at the "now" and always look ahead.

There seems to be something about Dwyer that the FO believes makes him a long term risk. So we may indeed see the Steelers hand him the starting position early on...and still be interested in eventually letting him go. Personally I hope that, if that is the case, he cleans up his act and becomes reliable and an even better player for us.

Steeldude
08-29-2013, 05:33 PM
I agree the guy consistently makes the wrong cuts and unless he has a huge hole at the line of scrimmage he's gaining nothing or losing yards. I also think they want redman because he's a better pass catcher and route runner.

As did Mendenhall. You dislike Dwyer because he unseated Mendenhall as the starter. It's also why you employ double-standards concerning RBs.

Seven
08-29-2013, 06:05 PM
Love how you set the benchmark right below where Dwyer was at.

Just answer why Redman was still the starter and Dwyer buried on the depth chart and fighting to keep his roster spot when Dwyer outproduced Redman last season.

You think I just decided 4 yards per carry is the standard because it's convenient for my argument? Come on, 4 YPC has been the mark of a decent back for as long as I can remember. Do you seriously dispute that?

As I've said NUMEROUS times Dwyer's conditioning was his issue last season and probably indicates poor work ethic, which is why I would guess he is below Redman on the depth chart but of course I can't tell you for certain why he is, that's just a guess.

You're acting as if I haven't stated all of this before. I believe I've even suggested in this thread that Redman might be the smarter choice. But at the end of the day no matter how many words we spin here Dwyer outproduces Redman: fact.

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There seems to be something about Dwyer that the FO believes makes him a long term risk. So we may indeed see the Steelers hand him the starting position early on...and still be interested in eventually letting him go. Personally I hope that, if that is the case, he cleans up his act and becomes reliable and an even better player for us.

I agree. I would really like it if the team gave him the job right now and then they can decide what to do with him based on whether he sinks or swims.

Chidi29
08-29-2013, 06:23 PM
You think I just decided 4 yards per carry is the standard because it's convenient for my argument? Come on, 4 YPC has been the mark of a decent back for as long as I can remember. Do you seriously dispute that?

As I've said NUMEROUS times Dwyer's conditioning was his issue last season and probably indicates poor work ethic, which is why I would guess he is below Redman on the depth chart but of course I can't tell you for certain why he is, that's just a guess.

You're acting as if I haven't stated all of this before. I believe I've even suggested in this thread that Redman might be the smarter choice. But at the end of the day no matter how many words we spin here Dwyer outproduces Redman: fact.

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I agree. I would really like it if the team gave him the job right now and then they can decide what to do with him based on whether he sinks or swims.

Yes I seriously dispute that because this isn't 1985.

Dwyer's 4.0 YPC was 25th in the league last year, 23rd of actual RBs. And behind pretty much every decent back you can think of. He was ahead of guys like Vic Ballard and Shonn Greene. Big whoop.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2012/rushing.htm

Like it's been said, Redman was dealing with an ankle sprain and his short yardage work skews his YPC. And it's not as if Dwyer is averaging 4.5 YPC and Redman 2.8. There is a difference but 4.0 and 3.7 isn't that big.

Dwinsgames
08-29-2013, 08:26 PM
Yes I seriously dispute that because this isn't 1985.

Dwyer's 4.0 YPC was 25th in the league last year, 23rd of actual RBs. And behind pretty much every decent back you can think of. He was ahead of guys like Vic Ballard and Shonn Greene. Big whoop.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2012/rushing.htm

Like it's been said, Redman was dealing with an ankle sprain and his short yardage work skews his YPC. And it's not as if Dwyer is averaging 4.5 YPC and Redman 2.8. There is a difference but 4.0 and 3.7 isn't that big.


he was also ahead of Redman .... Ryan Mathews , Fred Jackson , Felix Jones all behind Dwyer ...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/rushing/sort/yardsPerRushAttempt


as a side note Arain Foster is considered one of the best RBs in the game today and he averaged 4.1 YPC as did Steven Jackson and Demarco Murrey .....

so many talk big about Trent Richardson of the Browns ..... well he was at 3.6 YPC to put things into perspective ....

the difference is Dwyer toted the rock 200 times less than Arain Foster or he too would have tallied 1400+ yards

Seven
08-29-2013, 09:41 PM
Like it's been said, Redman was dealing with an ankle sprain and his short yardage work skews his YPC. And it's not as if Dwyer is averaging 4.5 YPC and Redman 2.8. There is a difference but 4.0 and 3.7 isn't that big.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda, didn't. .3 yards per carry isn't a significant margin? I have a hard time buying that you really believe that.

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he was also ahead of Redman .... Ryan Mathews , Fred Jackson , Felix Jones all behind Dwyer ...

as a side note Arain Foster is considered one of the best RBs in the game today and he averaged 4.1 YPC as did Steven Jackson and Demarco Murrey .....

The stats don't matter, Dwins - he's obviously talentless :rolleyes:

Chidi29
08-29-2013, 10:00 PM
he was also ahead of Redman .... Ryan Mathews , Fred Jackson , Felix Jones all behind Dwyer ...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/rushing/sort/yardsPerRushAttempt


as a side note Arain Foster is considered one of the best RBs in the game today and he averaged 4.1 YPC as did Steven Jackson and Demarco Murrey .....

so many talk big about Trent Richardson of the Browns ..... well he was at 3.6 YPC to put things into perspective ....

the difference is Dwyer toted the rock 200 times less than Arain Foster or he too would have tallied 1400+ yards

If the over the hill Fred Jackson and the guy traded for Adrian Robinson are the benchmarks for a successful season, then we're in a world of trouble.

So 25th in the league is average for you? I call that below average.

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Woulda, coulda, shoulda, didn't. .3 yards per carry isn't a significant margin? I have a hard time buying that you really believe that.

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The stats don't matter, Dwins - he's obviously talentless :rolleyes:

There is some significance, yes, I understand that. But how can we be sure of how important it is when Redman's short yardage work could easily skew his numbers? With only 110 carries, a relatively small sample size (not even eight carries per game) one or two 3rd and 1 dives can screw up your numbers. For example, 6 carries for 25 yards rounds to a 4.2 YPC, better than Dwyers. Throw in one more one yard run on 3rd and short and you have 7/26, all the way down to 3.7. Difference of half a yard.

Dwinsgames
08-29-2013, 10:07 PM
If the over the hill Fred Jackson and the guy traded for Adrian Robinson are the benchmarks for a successful season, then we're in a world of trouble.

So 25th in the league is average for you? I call that below average.


are you not the same Chidi that said the difference between Redmans 3.7 and Dwyers 4.0 is negligible ?

then why is it such a huge hairy deal between Dwyers 4.0 YPC and Leshon McCoy , Demarco Murrey , Arain Foster , Matt Forte , Ray Rice , and a whole host of others that tally less than 4.5 YPC ?

why only list 2 of the guys I listed prior and Omit Foster and Richardson ? ( oh because it goes against your point forget I asked ) .....

you keep ringing in on 25th not being good enough but in the next breath you back the guy who was 35th ... and you say we are not making sense .... review that last sentence and then tell us who is not making sense ....

Funny that 2012 Fred Jackson was over the hill ( your words ) but the fact is he was injured .... a healthy 2011 season he rocked out 5.5 YPC with 8 in the box game in game out because nobody respected the Bills passing game

Chidi29
08-29-2013, 10:11 PM
are you not the same Chidi that said the difference between Redmans 3.7 and Dwyers 4.0 is negligible ?

then why is it such a huge hairy deal between Dwyers 4.0 YPC and Leshon McCoy , Demarco Murrey , Arain Foster , Matt Forte , Ray Rice , and a whole host of others that tally less than 4.5 YPC ?

why only list 2 of the guys I listed prior and Omit Foster and Richardson ? ( oh because it goes against your point forget I asked ) .....

you keep ringing in on 25th not being good enough but in the next breath you back the guy who was 35th ... and you say we are not making sense .... review that last sentence and then tell us who is not making sense

First of all, I don't stare at YPC and not the game tape to make my decisions. Tape > everything. Which is why I argued Dwyer isn't very good in the first place.

4.0, 3.7, they're both unacceptable. That's why I think it's less significant than the difference between 4.5 (good) and 4.0 (bad). 4.0 and 3.7 are both "below the line" to pull a quote from Tomlin. And I'm not calling Redman a world-beater either. He isn't. We've seen his ceiling. He isn't going to get any better. Hence the reason for drafting Bell.

And I said that I believe part of Redman's YPC is due to the short yardage work coupled with the ankle sprain and low carry total. That helps explain the number.

Foster and Richardson's YPC were below average too. I brought up the point when he called the 4.0 YPC "average" which I proved is no longer the case. YPC does not mean 100% you're a good or bad back. Again, I don't rely on stats to tell me that story.

Seven
08-29-2013, 10:16 PM
I don't rely on stats to tell me that story.

Usually I agree with you, I'm not a big stat guy. But in this case, I just see way too many excuses. I don't understand how anyone could believe Redman is superior to Dwyer when everything over the last calendar year suggests otherwise. I guess we'll just have to see how it plays out over the next few weeks.

Chidi29
08-29-2013, 10:21 PM
Usually I agree with you, I'm not a big stat guy. But in this case, I just see way too many excuses. I don't understand how anyone could believe Redman is superior to Dwyer when everything over the last calendar year suggests otherwise. I guess we'll just have to see how it plays out over the next few weeks.

Well apparently the team does. Considering he started over Dwyer.

Dwinsgames
08-29-2013, 10:23 PM
First of all, I don't stare at YPC and not the game tape to make my decisions. Tape > everything. Which is why I argued Dwyer isn't very good in the first place.

4.0, 3.7, they're both unacceptable. That's why I think it's less significant than the difference between 4.5 (good) and 4.0 (bad). 4.0 and 3.7 are both "below the line" to pull a quote from Tomlin. And I'm not calling Redman a world-beater either. He isn't. We've seen his ceiling. He isn't going to get any better. Hence the reason for drafting Bell.

And I said that I believe part of Redman's YPC is due to the short yardage work coupled with the ankle sprain and low carry total. That helps explain the number.

Foster and Richardson's YPC were below average too. I brought up the point when he called the 4.0 YPC "average" which I proved is no longer the case. YPC does not mean 100% you're a good or bad back. Again, I don't rely on stats to tell me that story.


the eyeball test is a great test no doubt about it , however no matter how good someone looks if they fail to produce it does not help you any ....

Stats matter , they are the living record of what you have ( or have failed to ) accomplish they tell the story the eyeball test often fails to tell ....

results > greater than the best eye ball test of ability for a Running back ...

results > ability
results > prospect
results > upside
results > potential

results is the record of your accomplishments , results can also be called stats in many cases and with running backs I believe that is in fact the case because everything they do is tracked statistically rushing , catching and blocking

Chidi29
08-29-2013, 10:26 PM
the eyeball test is a great test no doubt about it , however no matter how good someone looks if they fail to produce it does not help you any ....

Stats matter , they are the living record of what you have ( or have failed to ) accomplish they tell the story the eyeball test often fails to tell ....

results > greater than the best eye ball test of ability for a Running back ...

results > ability
results > prospect
results > upside
results > potential

results is the record of your accomplishments , results can also be called stats in many cases and with running backs I believe that is in fact the case because everything they do is tracked statistically rushing , catching and blocking

And I'm looking at results! Only I'm not looking at a static box score. I'm watching a guy who has a hard time making people miss in the open field unless it's nearly impossible not to blow past him. Like Gomes taking an awful angle on 3rd and 18 in Week 2 of the preseason. Or tonight on his one cutback where the safety came on a 90 degree angle and Dwyer side stepped him. Looked good at first but any back in the NFL of any talent should be able to do that.

I watch a guy that doesn't run downhill as hard as he should. He loves to bounce runs when he should keep his speed and run hard. He has poor vision, like I said, he's routinely bounced plays to the edge when he should have gone inside. And now he's fumbled twice this preseason, losing one.

You can have your stats. I'll have my tape. They tell me what is really going on.

Seven
08-29-2013, 10:29 PM
Well apparently the team does. Considering he started over Dwyer.

I don't pretend to know what goes into those decisions behind the scenes.

HollywoodSteel
08-29-2013, 10:29 PM
I understand what Chidi is saying. I wouldn't go so far as to say Redman is straight up all around better than Dwyer, but he might have more value to us. And I can see how the stats might lie. I didn't get to see every play of tonight's preseason game but on the plays I saw where Dwyer had some gaping holes to run through I was astonished that he didn't get more yards. This is Dwyer in his best shape and he was getting 7 yards when Jones, LSH (and I'm assuming a healthy Bell) would have had 20 if not touch downs. I saw a real lack of quickness and decision making. Now I'm not going to say Redman is quicker, but he is better at toughing out the extra yards, and we have guys who are quicker so what does Dwyer bring to the table on any given down that someone else on the roster isn't better at?

Chidi29
08-29-2013, 10:33 PM
I don't pretend to know what goes into those decisions behind the scenes.

Me neither. We'll never know the whole answer. But you get a much better idea than a box score. And Dwyer's vision is so pitiful it's clear on some runs he's screwing up.

Seven
08-29-2013, 10:34 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say Redman is straight up all around better than Dwyer, but he might have more value to us. And I can see how the stats might lie. I didn't get to see every play of tonight's preseason game but on the plays I saw where Dwyer had some gaping holes to run through I was astonished that he didn't get more yards. This is Dwyer in his best shape and he was getting 7 yards when Jones, LSH (and I'm assuming a healthy Bell) would have had 20 if not touch downs. I saw a real lack of quickness and decision making. Now I'm not going to say Redman is quicker, but he is better at toughing out the extra yards, and we have guys who are quicker so what does Dwyer bring to the table on any given down that someone else on the roster isn't better at?

I can buy the bolded selection. The rest I don't necessarily support. There were a few runs tonight where Dwyer had absolutely nothing and turned them into decent gains. Redman looks like he breaks more tackles to the naked eye but that isn't the whole story. Dwyer was better after contact last season. But other than that, he doesn't bring much to the table :chuckle:

Dwinsgames
08-29-2013, 10:35 PM
And I'm looking at results! Only I'm not looking at a static box score. I'm watching a guy who has a hard time making people miss in the open field unless it's nearly impossible not to blow past him. Like Gomes taking an awful angle on 3rd and 18 in Week 2 of the preseason. Or tonight on his one cutback where the safety came on a 90 degree angle and Dwyer side stepped him. Looked good at first but any back in the NFL of any talent should be able to do that.

I watch a guy that doesn't run downhill as hard as he should. He loves to bounce runs when he should keep his speed and run hard. He has poor vision, like I said, he's routinely bounced plays to the edge when he should have gone inside. And now he's fumbled twice this preseason, losing one.

You can have your stats. I'll have my tape. They tell me what is really going on.


apparently your tape is really grainy or something because you are not seeing the results ....

I see the games as well , I replay them when time permits ( or is not to painful ) in slow mo .... I could care less if Dwyer has poor vision or not ( that is debatable by the way ) at the end of the day he accomplishes more with the time he has on the field ,,, if he has such suck ass vision , goes down with ease from arm tackles by defenders , does not run hard enough for you or with his head low enough for your taste but still manages to get more yards per carry then thats my guy !!! because at the end of the day we need every yard we can get so I take the one who give me the most per effort even if he has shortcomings to his game ...

if he has all the above issues as claimed here its interesting how he manages to out perform his counter parts playing in the same offence behind the same blockers ...

Holy shit I get it he is a magician !!!!!

Seven
08-29-2013, 10:37 PM
Me neither. We'll never know the whole answer. But you get a much better idea than a box score. And Dwyer's vision is so pitiful it's clear on some runs he's screwing up.

As I said, I guess we'll find out. I don't know how to respond to your opinion other than to say I think a lot of people have a differing opinion on his vision.

HollywoodSteel
08-29-2013, 10:48 PM
I can buy the bolded selection. The rest I don't necessarily support. There were a few runs tonight where Dwyer had absolutely nothing and turned them into decent gains. Redman looks like he breaks more tackles to the naked eye but that isn't the whole story. Dwyer was better after contact last season. But other than that, he doesn't bring much to the table :chuckle:

You could be right. Like I said, I had a select sampling of plays that I saw so that might be playing into my mindset about him right now. We're talking about plays that on paper looked like successes but were failures compared to what they could have been. But I know I'm not adding much to the Dwyer vs. Redman debate. If I had to go with either/or as an almost every down back I might go with Dwer as well. I'm not sure. But in the situation that we're in I'm not sure there are any downs where I wouldn't rather see someone else on our roster in there... if that makes sense.

Seven
08-29-2013, 10:51 PM
You could be right. Like I said, I had a select sampling of plays that I saw so that might be playing into my mindset about him right now. We're talking about plays that on paper looked like successes but were failures compared to what they could have been. But I know I'm not adding much to the Dwyer vs. Redman debate. If I had to go with either/or as an almost every down back I might go with Dwer as well. I'm not sure. But in the situation that we're in I'm not sure there are any downs where I wouldn't rather see someone else on our roster in there... if that makes sense.

I agree. I didn't catch the whole game either, so I may be missing some of what you're talking about. I'd like to see Jones make the team and get a crack at some touches. Basically, I'd rather see anyone but Redman get a shot before we turn to him. That's not necessarily a slight against him, I just think we know what we have with him. Give Dwyer/Jones/Stephens-Howling a chance to explode if they have it in them and if they don't produce then give it back to Redman who I guess is at least fairly reliable.

Dwinsgames
08-29-2013, 10:55 PM
I did not think Jones would make this team when we traded for him , I have since changed my mind ... he will make the team IMO and to be honest he may be the most talented back on the roster right now , BUT ....

you just can not reply on him to stay healthy , he is a durability concern ....

that being said give him the ball till he breaks then go to the next man up logic and send him packing

HollywoodSteel
08-29-2013, 10:57 PM
I agree. I didn't catch the whole game either, so I may be missing some of what you're talking about. I'd like to see Jones make the team and get a crack at some touches. Basically, I'd rather see anyone but Redman get a shot before we turn to him. That's not necessarily a slight against him, I just think we know what we have with him. Give Dwyer/Jones/Stephens-Howling a chance to explode if they have it in them and if they don't produce then give it back to Redman who I guess is at least fairly reliable.

Okay, but say you have to cut one of them, which one would it be? Redman? Right now I don't see anything that Dwyer does that Jones and LSH don't do better. I'd like to see Redman around for short yardage situations and possibly grinding out a 4 minute drive at the end of a game.

Even if you don't have to cut one, which one doesn't get a hat on Sunday? To me it seems like Dwyer is the odd man out, but I'm certainly open to being persuaded otherwise.

Chidi29
08-29-2013, 10:57 PM
apparently your tape is really grainy or something because you are not seeing the results ....

I see the games as well , I replay them when time permits ( or is not to painful ) in slow mo .... I could care less if Dwyer has poor vision or not ( that is debatable by the way ) at the end of the day he accomplishes more with the time he has on the field ,,, if he has such suck ass vision , goes down with ease from arm tackles by defenders , does not run hard enough for you or with his head low enough for your taste but still manages to get more yards per carry then thats my guy !!! because at the end of the day we need every yard we can get so I take the one who give me the most per effort even if he has shortcomings to his game ...

if he has all the above issues as claimed here its interesting how he manages to out perform his counter parts playing in the same offence behind the same blockers ...

Holy shit I get it he is a magician !!!!!

I've already explained the circumstances that point to Redman's lower YPC. I don't know how to be any clearer about it.

HollywoodSteel
08-29-2013, 10:58 PM
I did not think Jones would make this team when we traded for him , I have since changed my mind ... he will make the team IMO and to be honest he may be the most talented back on the roster right now , BUT ....

you just can not reply on him to stay healthy , he is a durability concern ....

that being said give him the ball till he breaks then go to the next man up logic and send him packing

I was kind of thinking the same thing, but if that's the case don't we need to cut someone? Would you cut Redman before cutting Dwyer?

Seven
08-29-2013, 11:07 PM
Okay, but say you have to cut one of them, which one would it be? Redman? Right now I don't see anything that Dwyer does that Jones and LSH don't do better. I'd like to see Redman around for short yardage situations and possibly grinding out a 4 minute drive at the end of a game.

Even if you don't have to cut one, which one doesn't get a hat on Sunday? To me it seems like Dwyer is the odd man out, but I'm certainly open to being persuaded otherwise.

It depends. If we absolutely had to cut one I'd probably cut Jones. If your in love with Jones though then yes the next guy I'd cut would be Dwyer just based on reliability. As far as which player wouldn't dress though, that's tough. I'm not sure. I can see arguments for all of them.

HollywoodSteel
08-29-2013, 11:18 PM
It depends. If we absolutely had to cut one I'd probably cut Jones. If your in love with Jones though then yes the next guy I'd cut would be Dwyer just based on reliability. As far as which player wouldn't dress though, that's tough. I'm not sure. I can see arguments for all of them.


I agree that's it's really not easy. I think I'm with Dwins on the Jones thing. Work him until he breaks, and if we're lucky that will coincide with when Bell is ready to come back. (I know. I'm going to hell for thinking like that)

Maybe we keep them all and go with less receivers. But I'd really like Moye to make the team after what he did tonight and I'm not sure we can hide him on the practice squad.

blitz
08-30-2013, 01:38 AM
Redman has more Heart than Dwyer...and his heart is what has him above Dwyer on the depth chart! He was never 100% healthy last year but played through it because we were so banged up at the RB position all year. This effected his performance and the staff knew it...but we didnt have many other options!

Redman will be a good fill in until BELL is ready...mixed in with Howlings and maybe some Jones...but he will be more valuable as a short yardage back and to give Bell a series or 2 off when healthy.

Steelers running game was horrible last year and they have already eliminated 2 of the 4 backs that produced so poorly as a whole! My thought is they bring that number to 3 and let Dwyer go!

Master Blaster
08-30-2013, 07:40 AM
http://nflfromthesidelines.blogspot.com/

Read what Dale Lolley had to say about the RB situation.

86WARD
08-30-2013, 09:02 AM
What's better? Rotten Apples or Rotten Bananas? Pretty much the same argument...minus the YPC.

TomlinSteelTribe
08-30-2013, 09:07 AM
Let's not act like Dwyer averaged 5 YPC last season. He didn't. It was 4.0 which is average. Yes, Redman was worse but maybe all the 3rd and short work skewed the numbers, I dunno.And the big games Dwyer had like against Cincy or Washington? Huge holes created by Willie Colon on Power O. It would be impossible not to be productive in that game. Redman, Dwyer, heck, even Baron Batch would have had a great game. And it was in one of those games I noted that Dwyer wasn't breaking tackles and couldn't do anything in the open field (he still pretty much can't).

The fact Redman started the year as the #1 and Dwyer the #4 tells you all you need to know even after Dwyer outproduced Redman in 2012.

I have a hard time seeing how the Redman-lovers come to their conclusions. Generally, I agree with the assessments: Redman runs slightly grittier than Dwyer and maybe has better vision (but I don't think this is necessarily a strong suit for Redman), but, for the most part, they are the same RB--mediocre plodders. Redman has been on the roster longer so the coaching staff has more familiarity with him. Likely has a better work ethic than Dwyer too. But Redman's no better than Dwyer when everything's all boiled down. At least not significantly enough to trump health and an active preseason.

You have to enter the season with the guy who's in better game shape. I'd have to believe that's Dwyer at this point. Am I thrilled about the RB situation? Not at all. It is what it is (there's a Tomlinism for ya--must be a William & Mary thing). Regardless of whether Dwyer or Redman starts, the OL will prove more influential than who's carrying the ball. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see LSH get 10 carries wk 1 in more of a split with Dwyer, as LSH is likely the best back on the roster (taking into account experience when comparing with Bell at this point). Just gotta make sure he doesn't carry too heavy a load.

Dwinsgames
08-30-2013, 09:19 AM
I was kind of thinking the same thing, but if that's the case don't we need to cut someone? Would you cut Redman before cutting Dwyer?


someone gets the ax or is traded ( Giants need a RB but the waiver wire may be the tool used to fill it )

I would cut Redman before Dwyer , for me Dwyer is the more complete Back ..... but I think the team views Redman ( for reasons unbeknownst to me ) as a higher priority ....

Nadroj 20
08-30-2013, 10:25 AM
He's the only back who played this preseason. :chuckle:

Which says something. He hasn't gotten hurt yet which is a one up on everyone else as well. I really think Dwyer deserves to at least make this team.

Master Blaster
08-30-2013, 02:17 PM
The key issue between Redman and Dwyer is maturity and commitment. Everyone knows that Dwyer has had issues with his weight and his practice habits since he signed with the team. He showed up at the OTA's thirty pounds overweight and Colbert and Tomlin were not pleased with what they saw. Dwyer knew it and he realized that his career was doomed if he didn't get off of his lazy butt and get his fat carcass in shape before camp rolled around. It's Dwyer's immaturity and his laziness that keeps him from reaching his full potential.

HollywoodSteel
08-30-2013, 02:27 PM
someone gets the ax or is traded ( Giants need a RB but the waiver wire may be the tool used to fill it )

I would cut Redman before Dwyer , for me Dwyer is the more complete Back ..... but I think the team views Redman ( for reasons unbeknownst to me ) as a higher priority ....

You have Dwyer gone in the 53 man roster thread. Is that just what you think will happen as opposed to what you would like? You also have them holding onto Moye as opposed to the extra RB. I would like to see that happen but I have a feeling that they won't cut Dwyer or Redman and will try to put Moye on the PS. I think that's a risk I'd rather not take. Moye showed something special last night, especially with his catching the dude from behind on the pick. Plus he is 6'5 and Ben will cry if another team snags him. ;)

Seven
08-30-2013, 02:35 PM
You have Dwyer gone in the 53 man roster thread. Is that just what you think will happen as opposed to what you would like? You also have them holding onto Moye as opposed to the extra RB. I would like to see that happen but I have a feeling that they won't cut Dwyer or Redman and will try to put Moye on the PS. I think that's a risk I'd rather not take. Moye showed something special last night, especially with his catching the dude from behind on the pick. Plus he is 6'5 and Ben will cry if another team snags him. ;)

Moye is a must keep. If he is cut it will be the first time I seriously doubt the competency of this staff.

Steeldude
08-30-2013, 03:35 PM
Dwyer has shown to be the most durable RB. If he is cut you could see a new RB each week due to injuries.

Dwinsgames
08-30-2013, 04:32 PM
You have Dwyer gone in the 53 man roster thread. Is that just what you think will happen as opposed to what you would like? You also have them holding onto Moye as opposed to the extra RB. I would like to see that happen but I have a feeling that they won't cut Dwyer or Redman and will try to put Moye on the PS. I think that's a risk I'd rather not take. Moye showed something special last night, especially with his catching the dude from behind on the pick. Plus he is 6'5 and Ben will cry if another team snags him. ;)


the 53 is what I think they will do , not what I would do ( with the exception of Wimpy , I could not bare to type his name on the 53 )

Chidi29
08-30-2013, 05:03 PM
I have a hard time seeing how the Redman-lovers come to their conclusions. Generally, I agree with the assessments: Redman runs slightly grittier than Dwyer and maybe has better vision (but I don't think this is necessarily a strong suit for Redman), but, for the most part, they are the same RB--mediocre plodders. Redman has been on the roster longer so the coaching staff has more familiarity with him. Likely has a better work ethic than Dwyer too. But Redman's no better than Dwyer when everything's all boiled down. At least not significantly enough to trump health and an active preseason.

You have to enter the season with the guy who's in better game shape. I'd have to believe that's Dwyer at this point. Am I thrilled about the RB situation? Not at all. It is what it is (there's a Tomlinism for ya--must be a William & Mary thing). Regardless of whether Dwyer or Redman starts, the OL will prove more influential than who's carrying the ball. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see LSH get 10 carries wk 1 in more of a split with Dwyer, as LSH is likely the best back on the roster (taking into account experience when comparing with Bell at this point). Just gotta make sure he doesn't carry too heavy a load.

Ok, well let me be clear. I am not a Redman "lover". I like him as a friend.

I don't think he's a starting caliber back. I really don't. I even came up with "Isaac Redman Disease" where you do well in short spurts but struggle after getting the full load. Neither are very good. Redman is the lesser of two evils more than it is Redman being a great back.

And since both aren't very good, I want the guy that is going to hurt us the least with bad decisions. And that's Redman. He runs hard and downhill. And if the blocking is good, then he'll be fine just like any other back would be behind a line that can open up running lanes.

Count Steeler
08-30-2013, 05:29 PM
Ok, well let me be clear. I am not a Redman "lover". I like him as a friend.

I don't think he's a starting caliber back. I really don't. I even came up with "Isaac Redman Disease" where you do well in short spurts but struggle after getting the full load. Neither are very good. Redman is the lesser of two evils more than it is Redman being a great back.

And since both aren't very good, I want the guy that is going to hurt us the least with bad decisions. And that's Redman. He runs hard and downhill. And if the blocking is good, then he'll be fine just like any other back would be behind a line that can open up running lanes.

And he can catch and defenders tend to forget about him in the passing game.

Psycho Ward 86
08-30-2013, 05:39 PM
Ok, well let me be clear. I am not a Redman "lover". I like him as a friend.



:lol:

Chidi29
08-30-2013, 07:29 PM
Let me ask you guys this.

If Dwyer was really a guy the team liked a lot and felt comfortable with as their starting RB, would he have been playing on the punt coverage unit in the 4th quarter of a preseason game??

http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h471/Chidi2955/DwyerPuntCoverage.png

- - - Updated - - -

Keep in mind the only players on that coverage that have a chance to start are Paulson (unlikely based on depth chart) and Worilds. And he was probably out there because the team is so short at OLB.

Others out there: Nathan Overbay, Curtis Brown, Paulson, Kion Wilson, Brian Rolle, Shamarko Thomas, Robert Golden.

TomlinSteelTribe
08-30-2013, 09:18 PM
They're giving Dwyer a chance to show he has worth outside of RB. Duh, bro. Weren't you the guy touting Baron Batch (and his what? Seven ST tackles?) over Dwyer? It's obvious neither Dwyer nor Redman is a valuable starter. Both expendable. Why wouldn't you give a bubble guy like that a shot (*when he's healthy), when your ST has experienced a game-changing type lapse each of its 4 preseason games? Maybe LSH and Felix Jones can handle the load until Bell's back. I dunno. What do you think, tape guy?

Shoes
08-30-2013, 09:19 PM
Let me ask you guys this.

If Dwyer was really a guy the team liked a lot and felt comfortable with as their starting RB, would he have been playing on the punt coverage unit in the 4th quarter of a preseason game??

http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h471/Chidi2955/DwyerPuntCoverage.png

- - - Updated - - -

Keep in mind the only players on that coverage that have a chance to start are Paulson (unlikely based on depth chart) and Worilds. And he was probably out there because the team is so short at OLB.

Others out there: Nathan Overbay, Curtis Brown, Paulson, Kion Wilson, Brian Rolle, Shamarko Thomas, Robert Golden.

It looks like he's talking on a cell phone on that pic. :chuckle:

Seven
08-30-2013, 10:15 PM
If Dwyer was really a guy the team liked a lot and felt comfortable with as their starting RB, would he have been playing on the punt coverage unit in the 4th quarter of a preseason game??

I haven't seen anyone here say the team likes him a lot.

86WARD
08-30-2013, 10:24 PM
Not to mention the team was short handed at that point in the game...and if Dwyer makes the team, he'll probably be contributing on special teams at some point if not all the time...

James Harrison played special teams...must not of thought much of him...actually, they didn't. Point taken.

Psycho Ward 86
08-30-2013, 11:04 PM
They're giving Dwyer a chance to show he has worth outside of RB. Duh, bro. Weren't you the guy touting Baron Batch (and his what? Seven ST tackles?) over Dwyer? It's obvious neither Dwyer nor Redman is a valuable starter. Both expendable. Why wouldn't you give a bubble guy like that a shot (*when he's healthy), when your ST has experienced a game-changing type lapse each of its 4 preseason games? Maybe LSH and Felix Jones can handle the load until Bell's back. I dunno. What do you think, tape guy?

except no one in the history of life had ever been touting baron batch as a viable starter. Duh, bro.

Chidi29
08-31-2013, 12:13 AM
They're giving Dwyer a chance to show he has worth outside of RB. Duh, bro. Weren't you the guy touting Baron Batch (and his what? Seven ST tackles?) over Dwyer? It's obvious neither Dwyer nor Redman is a valuable starter. Both expendable. Why wouldn't you give a bubble guy like that a shot (*when he's healthy), when your ST has experienced a game-changing type lapse each of its 4 preseason games? Maybe LSH and Felix Jones can handle the load until Bell's back. I dunno. What do you think, tape guy?

When they were competing for the #4 RB spot, yeah, ST was important. And that's why it was even encouraging to see him on the punt unit Week 1 of the preseason. But it's a totally different story now. If he's the starting caliber RB some make him out to be, the team wouldn't be risking him running down a punt in the 4th preseason game. So that tells me the team really doesn't think that highly of him. Because if they didn't want to risk losing him, he wouldn't have been playing there just like the rest of the guys that were held out/limited in snaps.

You hit the nail on the head. He's a "bubble guy". Nothing more.

And I don't want to sound uppity and pretentious about using the "tape". I know it's probably coming off that way. And I know I'm watching the same games as you all are. Preseason doesn't even offer the All-22 tape so I don't have an extra vantage point or anything like that. But when it comes down to looking at a box score or watching a guy play, I think most people would take the latter. That's the point I am making about relying on the tape.

Dwinsgames
08-31-2013, 12:30 AM
When they were competing for the #4 RB spot, yeah, ST was important. And that's why it was even encouraging to see him on the punt unit Week 1 of the preseason. But it's a totally different story now. If he's the starting caliber RB some make him out to be, the team wouldn't be risking him running down a punt in the 4th preseason game. So that tells me the team really doesn't think that highly of him. Because if they didn't want to risk losing him, he wouldn't have been playing there just like the rest of the guys that were held out/limited in snaps.

You hit the nail on the head. He's a "bubble guy". Nothing more.

And I don't want to sound uppity and pretentious about using the "tape". I know it's probably coming off that way. And I know I'm watching the same games as you all are. Preseason doesn't even offer the All-22 tape so I don't have an extra vantage point or anything like that. But when it comes down to looking at a box score or watching a guy play, I think most people would take the latter. That's the point I am making about relying on the tape.


the tape is only as good as the guy interpreting what he sees ....

if the guy sees 4.0 YPC from one player and sees another guy deliver less results and makes them out to be one in the same he did not utilize that tape very well .....

results at the end of the day is what makes the difference in winners and losers ... I take the guy who gets the best results

Seven
08-31-2013, 12:46 AM
But it's a totally different story now. If he's the starting caliber RB some make him out to be, the team wouldn't be risking him running down a punt in the 4th preseason game. So that tells me the team really doesn't think that highly of him.

I really don't see how what the team thinks of him plays into this debate at all. I don't think anyone here is arguing that the team is particularly fond of him. And while that's probably a mark in favor of your argument, as I said earlier, I'm not going to pretend I know what every ingredient that goes into the staff liking a player is. We've certainly seen examples of this team playing someone with less talent ahead of a better player because of attitude/work ethic before. All I'm saying here is that when given the chance over the last year - maybe longer - Dwyer has outperformed every back we've had on our roster. And I don't think that's a fluke. I'm not by any means saying he's special, but whatever Dwyer is, I think Redman is slightly worse - from a pure ball carrying standpoint. Redman is certainly more reliable and probably does the little things better than Dwyer. But I want my starting running back to gain more yards than his competition - period.

Psycho Ward 86
08-31-2013, 01:14 AM
the tape is only as good as the guy interpreting what he sees ....

if the guy sees 4.0 YPC from one player and sees another guy deliver less results and makes them out to be one in the same he did not utilize that tape very well .....

results at the end of the day is what makes the difference in winners and losers ... I take the guy who gets the best results

again, isaac redman had a high ankle sprain. not like that severely hampers ones' ability to play or anything...

TomlinSteelTribe
08-31-2013, 07:13 AM
Haha, okay, so we definitely all agree the RB situation is garbage until we know what we have with Bell, and whether he's gonna be a uniform or sweatpants type guy on Sundays. From the bit I saw of practice and preseason, he isn't a bust and will be better than the other options. Unless it's due to injury. I'm looking forward to seeing what a combo of Felix/LSH can do until he's ready. Smaller guys, but we haven't had a good powerback since Bus and Bam. Maybe time to get over the preference for that style anyway, with the New NFL.

I like your reviews/articles, Chidi. The fact you're willing to put in time to review tape is awesome. Hard to find interesting articles but yours provide worthwhile insight. Hopefully it goes somewhere for ya and you make some coin with it. (Hobbies are nice, too.) The way I am is, if you jab (no matter how lightly), I'll likely jab back. I mean, okay, "Redman-lover" probably sounds oddly old-fashioned, but you came at me with a hs yuck-yuck. It could get real bro-y, less football, in here real quick, what, with all the homoerotic/sexually charged language that is frequently used in football-speak (and just a lot of convo in general, to be honest).

The fact Redman and Dwyer can't make a defender with decent position miss, nor really run anyone over, makes me think just go with the guys who can hit the hole (uh oh) quicker, ie Jones and LSH. If Dwyer hadn't been putting the ball on the ground this preseason, maybe he could have won the job with Redman out, or at least earned first crack... Platoon Central, here we come.

steeldawg
08-31-2013, 07:27 AM
I haven't seen anyone here say the team likes him a lot.

I think a better question is if the steelers thought he was our most productive and viable starting option would he be on punts during a 4th preseason game. My guess is absolutely not, I think it is safe to say the steelers do not view him as the most productive running back.

Master Blaster
08-31-2013, 07:35 AM
again, isaac redman had a high ankle sprain. not like that severely hampers ones' ability to play or anything...
Redman started last season on the sideline because of a high ankle sprain. Once he was cleared to play he suffered another high ankle sprain, but it was his other ankle. If anyone here has ever suffered a high ankle sprain you would know that they linger for a long time and in the case of NFL running backs they usually never fully heal until after the season is over. It's the same with ham string injuries.

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In my opinion, Dwyer is auditioning for other teams, especially if Felix Jones makes the final cuts and there is no reason why he won't.

Seven
08-31-2013, 09:48 AM
Redman started last season on the sideline because of a high ankle sprain. Once he was cleared to play he suffered another high ankle sprain, but it was his other ankle. If anyone here has ever suffered a high ankle sprain you would know that they linger for a long time and in the case of NFL running backs they usually never fully heal until after the season is over. It's the same with ham string injuries.

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In my opinion, Dwyer is auditioning for other teams, especially if Felix Jones makes the final cuts and there is no reason why he won't.

I had a high ankle sprain in high school. It's the only reason I'm not in the league now.













:chuckle: jk, but I've heard enough excuses for Redman to last a life time. Too many excuses. Look at his production before the high ankle sprain, when he's not hurt he gives you the same thing. He is what he is. 3 yards per carry and inconsistently better/worse depending on what day it is. You can only hand a guy the starting job on a platter so many times before you have to stop making excuses for him.

Psycho Ward 86
08-31-2013, 12:45 PM
I had a high ankle sprain in high school. It's the only reason I'm not in the league now.













:chuckle: jk, but I've heard enough excuses for Redman to last a life time. Too many excuses. Look at his production before the high ankle sprain, when he's not hurt he gives you the same thing. He is what he is. 3 yards per carry and inconsistently better/worse depending on what day it is. You can only hand a guy the starting job on a platter so many times before you have to stop making excuses for him.

you must be kidding about ever having a high ankle sprain if you dont think that's a viable excuse. Or 2 high ankle sprains for that matter. what excuse[s]? the only excuse im hearing in redman's defense is that he started the season the season with a high ankle sprain, and then another on his other ankle. Sprained ankles are one thing, high ankle sprains are impossible to run on. His latest games before his high ankle sprain looked good. 19 carries, 92 yards, 4.8 YPC, 1 TD (in 3 quarters) against a respectable browns defense (yes, they were respectable, check if you dont believe me). And then 17 carries, 121 yards, 7.1 YPC against a respectable broncos defense. When has he ever averaged 3 yards per carry? The previous 2 seasons he was a healthy 4.4 YPC and 4.8 YPC. If we start dwyer, we have to assume that he has improved dramatically based on his preseason play. He had some carries against back up players as well, so that is always difficult to evaluate.

Nadroj 20
08-31-2013, 01:27 PM
Let me ask you guys this.

If Dwyer was really a guy the team liked a lot and felt comfortable with as their starting RB, would he have been playing on the punt coverage unit in the 4th quarter of a preseason game??

http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h471/Chidi2955/DwyerPuntCoverage.png

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Keep in mind the only players on that coverage that have a chance to start are Paulson (unlikely based on depth chart) and Worilds. And he was probably out there because the team is so short at OLB.

Others out there: Nathan Overbay, Curtis Brown, Paulson, Kion Wilson, Brian Rolle, Shamarko Thomas, Robert Golden.

I didn't see the game but that picture doesn't say it was the 4th quarter so I'm not sure why you used it.

Chidi29
08-31-2013, 02:56 PM
I didn't see the game but that picture doesn't say it was the 4th quarter so I'm not sure why you used it.

Sorry, I mean 4th game. Either way, my point still stands. And Dwyer is now looking for work.

Nadroj 20
08-31-2013, 03:55 PM
Sorry, I mean 4th game. Either way, my point still stands. And Dwyer is now looking for work.

True. I guess a banged up Redman is better then a healthy Dwyer..

Dwinsgames
08-31-2013, 04:36 PM
True. I guess a banged up Redman is better then a healthy Dwyer..


using that same logic , a shitty Guy Whimper is Better than a Max Starks http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/blink.gif

sorry I do not buy it

Nadroj 20
08-31-2013, 04:43 PM
using that same logic , a shitty Guy Whimper is Better than a Max Starks http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/blink.gif

sorry I do not buy it

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. To be clear, I think we should have kept Dwyer

Dwinsgames
08-31-2013, 04:50 PM
Sorry, I was being sarcastic. To be clear, I think we should have kept Dwyer


I do too , however I understand it ...

I think Dwyer 1 vs 1 is better than every Back on the roster ( not including the unproven rookie Bell because we just do not know on him yet )

BUT I believe what killed Dwyer is this ...

Redman has more power .....

Jones has more quick ....

LSH is a better receiver and offer's ST value over all the other RBs

Bell .... you are not going to cut a second round pick in his rookie year when you have high hopes for him moving forward

Chidi29
08-31-2013, 05:12 PM
True. I guess a banged up Redman is better then a healthy Dwyer..

And the fact that it's true (no sarcasm from me here despite yours) and Redman still made the team? So telling about how bad Dwyer is.

Dwinsgames
08-31-2013, 05:15 PM
And the fact that it's true (no sarcasm from me here despite yours) and Redman still made the team? So telling about how bad Dwyer is.


guess wimpy is better than starks by that logic ..... they let Max go without even an offer and signed wimpy and kept him for the final 53 ...

Max on his worst day is 10 times better than Wimpy and that is FACT not opinion

Chidi29
08-31-2013, 05:17 PM
guess wimpy is better than starks by that logic ..... they let Max go without even an offer and signed wimpy and kept him for the final 53 ...

Max on his worst day is 10 times better than Wimpy and that is FACT not opinion

Max and Wimpy weren't on the roster at the same time. So two different situations.

Starks was cut because he didn't fit the system and got pushed out by the two young tackles. So also a different scenario.

Seven
08-31-2013, 05:20 PM
And the fact that it's true (no sarcasm from me here despite yours) and Redman still made the team? So telling about how bad Dwyer is.

Did Dwyer snub you at a mall autograph signing or something? :chuckle:

Dwinsgames
08-31-2013, 05:21 PM
Max and Wimpy weren't on the roster at the same time. So two different situations.

Starks was cut because he didn't fit the system and got pushed out by the two young tackles. So also a different scenario.

was not cut , contract expired

Shoes
08-31-2013, 05:23 PM
I do too , however I understand it ...

I think Dwyer 1 vs 1 is better than every Back on the roster ( not including the unproven rookie Bell because we just do not know on him yet )

BUT I believe what killed Dwyer is this ...

Redman has more power .....

Jones has more quick ....

LSH is a better receiver and offer's ST value over all the other RBs

Bell .... you are not going to cut a second round pick in his rookie year when you have high hopes for him moving forward


......and not being a dependable pass catcher, showing up over weight (@ 260 this year) again and running out of gas after a few plays.

Chidi29
08-31-2013, 05:29 PM
was not cut , contract expired

Tomato, tomotto

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Did Dwyer snub you at a mall autograph signing or something? :chuckle:

No.


.....


Yes!

:hurt:

Nadroj 20
08-31-2013, 05:40 PM
I do too , however I understand it ...

I think Dwyer 1 vs 1 is better than every Back on the roster ( not including the unproven rookie Bell because we just do not know on him yet )

BUT I believe what killed Dwyer is this ...

Redman has more power .....

Jones has more quick ....

LSH is a better receiver and offer's ST value over all the other RBs

Bell .... you are not going to cut a second round pick in his rookie year when you have high hopes for him moving forward

But Dwyer is healthier then all but Felix. I'm not saying Dwyer is an amazing back but he is good enough until Bell gets back and as you said, was overall better then every back on the roster. Aside Bell hopefully and perhaps Jones but we have to wait and see about both.

Dwinsgames
08-31-2013, 05:49 PM
But Dwyer is healthier then all but Felix. I'm not saying Dwyer is an amazing back but he is good enough until Bell gets back and as you said, was overall better then every back on the roster. Aside Bell hopefully and perhaps Jones but we have to wait and see about both.


you get no argument from me ....

Steeldude
08-31-2013, 06:00 PM
They're giving Dwyer a chance to show he has worth outside of RB. Duh, bro. Weren't you the guy touting Baron Batch (and his what? Seven ST tackles?) over Dwyer? It's obvious neither Dwyer nor Redman is a valuable starter. Both expendable. Why wouldn't you give a bubble guy like that a shot (*when he's healthy), when your ST has experienced a game-changing type lapse each of its 4 preseason games? Maybe LSH and Felix Jones can handle the load until Bell's back. I dunno. What do you think, tape guy?

So basically you are saying the Steelers do not have a single starting-caliber RB on the roster? Bell? I wasn't impressed with his east/west running style in college. The entire RB situation depends on the poor O-line.

Nadroj 20
08-31-2013, 06:44 PM
you get no argument from me ....

I know, I guess I was just ranting not because I was arguing but just because :chuckle:

bayz101
08-31-2013, 07:06 PM
Anyone who believes Dwyer is a terrible RB clearly hasn't watched enough tape. Last year, he was our best runner. This year, he showed that he COULD be our best runner, but mistakes overshadowing those flashes. That's why he's looking for work.

Psycho Ward 86
08-31-2013, 07:26 PM
Anyone who believes Dwyer is a terrible RB clearly hasn't watched enough tape. Last year, he was our best runner. This year, he showed that he COULD be our best runner, but mistakes overshadowing those flashes. That's why he's looking for work.

to say he was our best runner last year clearly acknowledges that people are unaware that isaac redman ran on 2 high ankle sprains during the 2012 season.

Dwinsgames
08-31-2013, 07:29 PM
to say he was our best runner last year clearly acknowledges that people are unaware that isaac redman ran on 2 high ankle sprains during the 2012 season.


maybe so but part of being the guy is being able to be the guy ... can't help the club in the tub

Nadroj 20
08-31-2013, 07:31 PM
to say he was our best runner last year clearly acknowledges that people are unaware that isaac redman ran on 2 high ankle sprains during the 2012 season.

But how much better is Redman even when he's healthy? Not significantly in my opinion..so keep the guy that's healthier and has stayed healthy.


That's the way I look at it anyway.

Count Steeler
08-31-2013, 07:35 PM
But how much better is Redman even when he's healthy? Not significantly in my opinion..so keep the guy that's healthier and has stayed healthy.


That's the way I look at it anyway.

Or get a guy that can run more than 2 plays without getting winded. Dwyer was OK, but failed in the commitment/training department. Perhaps another semi-cancer from last years locker room.

Nadroj 20
08-31-2013, 07:58 PM
Or get a guy that can run more than 2 plays without getting winded. Dwyer was OK, but failed in the commitment/training department. Perhaps another semi-cancer from last years locker room.

Last year maybe. I didn't think he was out of shape so far this year...

Psycho Ward 86
08-31-2013, 08:05 PM
Last year maybe. I didn't think he was out of shape so far this year...

hard to evaluate on 8.5 carries per game this preseason

Nadroj 20
08-31-2013, 08:07 PM
hard to evaluate on 8.5 carries per game this preseason

Really psycho that's the excuse? How many times in a row are we going to pound it with ANY of our backs?? It's just not going to happen.

Once again I just don't think Redman was that much above Dwyer. I know I know the Steelers didn't think that, what do I know?

Just my opinion.

Chidi29
08-31-2013, 08:42 PM
Last year maybe. I didn't think he was out of shape so far this year...

Because he was chewed out to get into shape in the spring after being overweight. Not going to endear himself to the team when you worry about a guy ballooning up every offseason.

Dwinsgames
08-31-2013, 08:45 PM
Because he was chewed out to get into shape in the spring after being overweight. Not going to endear himself to the team when you worry about a guy ballooning up every offseason.

doubt that was what made their minds up , lets be honest it was his last year under contract why would they give a shit about what happens NEXT off season this years is behind them and he is in shape NOW ...

Redman is also in his final year ( both had tender offers this year )

Chidi29
08-31-2013, 08:48 PM
doubt that was what made their minds up , lets be honest it was his last year under contract why would they give a shit about what happens NEXT off season this years is behind them and he is in shape NOW ...

Redman is also in his final year ( both had tender offers this year )

Because it's frustrating to keep having to tell a guy over and over again to get your weight down. You're expected to show up to OTAs/camp/whatever in relatively good shape. Dwyer did not...again. That wears on you.

Was that the final straw? No. Those decisions aren't made in May. But did it hurt him? You bet. First impressions matter.

bayz101
08-31-2013, 09:23 PM
to say he was our best runner last year clearly acknowledges that people are unaware that isaac redman ran on 2 high ankle sprains during the 2012 season.

To say that he was our best runner last year clearly acknowledges that he's was our statistically best runner, actually. You can't be the #1 runner sitting on the bench, can you?

Seven
09-01-2013, 01:08 AM
Well guys while I think it was a mistake to cut Dwyer right now, he is no longer a Steeler. So time to move on. Here's hoping Redman can stay reliable and Jones & Stephens-Howling can give us some pop.

Nadroj 20
09-01-2013, 07:37 AM
Because he was chewed out to get into shape in the spring after being overweight. Not going to endear himself to the team when you worry about a guy ballooning up every offseason.

Then cut him next year. For this season we could use him and yeah we may of had to chew him out to get him in shape, but oh well. He is now and he was our best option.

There has to be more to the story then this.

ALLD
09-01-2013, 08:34 AM
Redman is on the bubble and this is his last chance to show what he has. The RB situation on this team is like the OL, fortunately for the CBs & STs.

Master Blaster
09-01-2013, 08:35 AM
doubt that was what made their minds up , lets be honest it was his last year under contract why would they give a shit about what happens NEXT off season this years is behind them and he is in shape NOW ...

Redman is also in his final year ( both had tender offers this year )
http://nflfromthesidelines.blogspot.com/

Lolley nailed the reason why Dwyer was cut and I agree with him.

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 09:17 AM
Then cut him next year. For this season we could use him and yeah we may of had to chew him out to get him in shape, but oh well. He is now and he was our best option.

There has to be more to the story then this.

Use him for what? the coaching staff is already more impressed with jones and he's only been there a week. So you have jones redman and howlings, all would be carrying the ball before dwyer its not worth it to keep him at his salary. Dwyer is a veteran now which means his salary is guaranteed for the season if he is on the roster opening day.

Nadroj 20
09-01-2013, 09:50 AM
Use him for what? the coaching staff is already more impressed with jones and he's only been there a week. So you have jones redman and howlings, all would be carrying the ball before dwyer its not worth it to keep him at his salary. Dwyer is a veteran now which means his salary is guaranteed for the season if he is on the roster opening day.

So is Redman's and he's hurt.

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 09:55 AM
So is Redman's and he's hurt.

Redman Is going to play week 1 and he is going to be used in short yardage even when bell comes back, redman has a purpose on this offense dwyers does not. The point is your not going to pay a guy that salary your not going to use and your esp[ecially not going to pay a guy that salary for a full season your going to release after 3 weeks when bell comes back.

Nadroj 20
09-01-2013, 10:03 AM
Redman Is going to play week 1 and he is going to be used in short yardage even when bell comes back, redman has a purpose on this offense dwyers does not. The point is your not going to pay a guy that salary your not going to use and your esp[ecially not going to pay a guy that salary for a full season your going to release after 3 weeks when bell comes back.

Is he playing week 1? I don't know about that.

Plus I thought Bell was suppose to be our every down back? Why do we need a short yardage back that can't stay healthy?

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 10:09 AM
Is he playing week 1? I don't know about that.

Plus I thought Bell was suppose to be our every down back? Why do we need a short yardage back that can't stay healthy?

Bell is an every down back but if bell was to go down and jones was our starting back would you not want to have a short yardage back on the roster. Beides if you have an every down back he has to rest so if you have an 80 yard drive and hes running all over the field and you get to the one yard line, if hes completely gassed you can bring in redman for a goaline carry.

Nadroj 20
09-01-2013, 10:12 AM
Don't get me wrong I like Redman. The guy tossed me one of is RB gloves at training camp a couple years ago and I still have it up on my shelve!

Logically though, I think Dwyer could bring more to the team. But, oh well he's not here and we just have to hope the RB situation is good, that way we forget all about Dwyer. I'm not even the biggest Dwyer fan, but I did think he was alright and at least he was healthy and as stayed healthy in the past.

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Bell is an every down back but if bell was to go down and jones was our starting back would you not want to have a short yardage back on the roster. Beides if you have an every down back he has to rest so if you have an 80 yard drive and hes running all over the field and you get to the one yard line, if hes completely gassed you can bring in redman for a goaline carry.

And Dwyer couldn't get a yard? lol

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 10:12 AM
Is he playing week 1? I don't know about that.

Plus I thought Bell was suppose to be our every down back? Why do we need a short yardage back that can't stay healthy?

Why wouldn't he play week 1, he might not be the starter but he is going to get on field especially in short yardage.

Dwinsgames
09-01-2013, 10:12 AM
Redman Is going to play week 1 and he is going to be used in short yardage even when bell comes back, redman has a purpose on this offense dwyers does not. The point is your not going to pay a guy that salary your not going to use and your esp[ecially not going to pay a guy that salary for a full season your going to release after 3 weeks when bell comes back.


wasnt redman supposed to have dropped 20 plus pounds ?

would that not put him at around 210 ?

do we have any evidence that a 210 pound RB can be a short yardage back ?

do we have any evidence his stinger will be ok for week 1 ?

what makes anyone believe he will be able to get and remain healthy for a full season he has not been able to do that thus far

more questions than answers IMO

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 10:14 AM
Don't get me wrong I like Redman. The guy tossed me one of is RB gloves at training camp a couple years ago and I still have it up on my shelve!

Logically though, I think Dwyer could bring more to the team. But, oh well he's not here and we just have to hope the RB situation is good, that way we forget all about Dwyer. I'm not even the biggest Dwyer fan, but I did think he was alright and at least he was healthy and as stayed healthy in the past.

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And Dwyer couldn't get a yard? lol

No in a goaline or short yardage situation where the defense is stack against the run im not confident dwyer could get a yard or be a consistent short yardage back.

Nadroj 20
09-01-2013, 10:15 AM
No in a goaline or short yardage situation where the defense is stack against the run im not confident dwyer could get a yard or be a consistent short yardage back.

If Redman can Dwyer can.

Once again Redman is NOT that much better if any then Dwyer. At all

Steeldude
09-01-2013, 10:19 AM
wasnt redman supposed to have dropped 20 plus pounds ?

would that not put him at around 210 ?

do we have any evidence that a 210 pound RB can be a short yardage back ?

do we have any evidence his stinger will be ok for week 1 ?

what makes anyone believe he will be able to get and remain healthy for a full season he has not been able to do that thus far

more questions than answers IMO

His entire outlook is based on his hate for Dwyer. It explains why he says Bell is the man without needing to prove it on the field.

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 10:21 AM
If Redman can Dwyer can.

Once again Redman is NOT that much better if any then Dwyer. At all

Really dwyer is as good of a short yardage back as Isaac Redman? No way No how Dwyers vision sucks and he does not run with the same power and behind his pads like redman does.

Nadroj 20
09-01-2013, 10:22 AM
wasnt redman supposed to have dropped 20 plus pounds ?

would that not put him at around 210 ?

do we have any evidence that a 210 pound RB can be a short yardage back ?

do we have any evidence his stinger will be ok for week 1 ?

what makes anyone believe he will be able to get and remain healthy for a full season he has not been able to do that thus far

more questions than answers IMO

At least we know what we get with Dwyer. Not that best back by any means in the world but he is serviceable. Plus, he isn't currently hurt and hasn't been.

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 10:24 AM
His entire outlook is based on his hate for Dwyer. It explains why he says Bell is the man without needing to prove it on the field.

You keep going chump But hey looks like I was right!!! Bell injured and still dwyer gets cut and they bring in an outsider that looks like he could start opening day. Ya tell me another one. :rolleyes:

Nadroj 20
09-01-2013, 10:24 AM
Really dwyer is as good of a short yardage back as Isaac Redman? No way No how Dwyers vision sucks and he does not run with the same power and behind his pads like redman does.

Redman has Dwyer in the short yardage but once again overall they aren't that different. Put Jones in, in short yardage situations. Hell what about Johnson? We could find others if your only case for Redman is short yardage. That is very replaceable in my opinion.

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 10:35 AM
At least we know what we get with Dwyer. Not that best back by any means in the world but he is serviceable. Plus, he isn't currently hurt and hasn't been.

Redman will be ready to go week one, he said he could played this week if it was a regular season game. Also yes we know what we get with dwyer a bad running game he was injured last season and bencehed that's not serviceable that is every one else is hurt and we have no choice. You saw what just happened to dwyer when we have choices.

- - - Updated - - -


Redman has Dwyer in the short yardage but once again overall they aren't that different. Put Jones in, in short yardage situations. Hell what about Johnson? We could find others if your only case for Redman is short yardage. That is very replaceable in my opinion.

lots of teams have short yardage specialists its not as easy as just throwing a big guy back there and having him run straight ahead. In short yardage also I would much rather have Johnson lead blocking like a fb should.

Nadroj 20
09-01-2013, 10:39 AM
Redman will be ready to go week one, he said he could played this week if it was a regular season game. Also yes we know what we get with dwyer a bad running game he was injured last season and bencehed that's not serviceable that is every one else is hurt and we have no choice. You saw what just happened to dwyer when we have choices.

Choices? We aren't comparing Dwyer to Adrian Peterson or Ray Rice. These "choices" aren't special by any means and have question marks all around them. Dwyer had moments last year and yeah maybe because of injuries, but he had 623 yards on 156 att. behind a line that wasn't very good. That's average. I'd take average over injured any day.

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 10:56 AM
Choices? We aren't comparing Dwyer to Adrian Peterson or Ray Rice. These "choices" aren't special by any means and have question marks all around them. Dwyer had moments last year and yeah maybe because of injuries, but he had 623 yards on 156 att. behind a line that wasn't very good. That's average. I'd take average over injured any day.

That's the point! The choices we have are average and that was plenty good enough to cut dwyer. He is not a good runner he only had 2 games last season where he cracked 60 yards and he couldn't stay on the field. He's not good catching the ball out of the backfield which is a big part of haleys offense hes not a good short yardage runner, he brings nothing to the table.

Dwinsgames
09-01-2013, 11:24 AM
Redman will be ready to go week one, he said he could played this week if it was a regular season game. Also yes we know what we get with dwyer a bad running game he was injured last season and bencehed that's not serviceable that is every one else is hurt and we have no choice. You saw what just happened to dwyer when we have choices.

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lots of teams have short yardage specialists its not as easy as just throwing a big guy back there and having him run straight ahead. In short yardage also I would much rather have Johnson lead blocking like a fb should.


we also know that THIS Steelers coaching staff and GM are not always correct in player evaluations especially in terms to RBs ... last year we Cut Dujuan Harris and he ended up not only starting for the Packers but was successful at it when he got the call , all the while we went with a RB by committee approach and Harris was the starter until hurt this season over TWO highly touted draft picks ( Lacy and Franklin ) ... Yet he " wasn't good enough " to be a Steeler even in backup duty .....


so tow the party line all you like but the fact remains these guys are fallible and they have been fallible all along ...

just because they get paid to make these determinations does not automatically make them correct when doing so and sometimes the fans know best ....


as a side note .....

I for one am not convinced Redman can even be a short yardage guy at this stage ...

1) he reportedly dropped 20 pounds from last years playing weight , that would put him at 210ish

2) he is nursing a stinger not a injury to have for someone looking to lower their shoulder and pound for short yardage

Redman should have been cut instead of Dwyer

I say prove me wrong and I will admit being wrong but until then that is my thinking ... http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/ok.gif

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 11:54 AM
we also know that THIS Steelers coaching staff and GM are not always correct in player evaluations especially in terms to RBs ... last year we Cut Dujuan Harris and he ended up not only starting for the Packers but was successful at it when he got the call , all the while we went with a RB by committee approach and Harris was the starter until hurt this season over TWO highly touted draft picks ( Lacy and Franklin ) ... Yet he " wasn't good enough " to be a Steeler even in backup duty .....


so tow the party line all you like but the fact remains these guys are fallible and they have been fallible all along ...

just because they get paid to make these determinations does not automatically make them correct when doing so and sometimes the fans know best ....


as a side note .....

I for one am not convinced Redman can even be a short yardage guy at this stage ...

1) he reportedly dropped 20 pounds from last years playing weight , that would put him at 210ish

2) he is nursing a stinger not a injury to have for someone looking to lower their shoulder and pound for short yardage

Redman should have been cut instead of Dwyer

I say prove me wrong and I will admit being wrong but until then that is my thinking ... http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/ok.gif

Dwyer got cut redman didn't, proof is in the pudding.

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/05/steelers-isaac-redman-10-pounds-lighter/

Nadroj 20
09-01-2013, 12:13 PM
I'm saying the Steelers were wrong. They can be wrong and I think they were.

Still love them to death just my opinion. I hope I get proofed wrong.

tube517
09-01-2013, 12:55 PM
Labriola's take:


Why cut Jonathan Dwyer?
The answer to that question is based on whether Tomlin believed he had a better alternative, and it’s likely that was answered in the affirmative once he got an up-close look at Felix Jones. Tomlin said he was impressed with what Jones was able to do in the preseason game vs. Kansas City with just one walk-through in a hotel ballroom as preparation following the trade with the Eagles. Then Jones acquitted himself well in the preseason finale against the Panthers, and Tomlin had himself an alternative to Dwyer, who always seemed to be sabotaging himself by being out of shape, or taking himself out of games, or by fumbling, or with his ability to be a punctual professional.

http://www.steelers.com/news/article-1/Labriola-on-the-53-man-roster/ac46016f-98c0-4fe2-8947-1ca260dd0b61

Dulac tweeted:

Steelers got tired of Dwyer's lack of dedication to his job; and they like Felix Jones.
https://twitter.com/gerrydulac/status/373897148221620225

Dwinsgames
09-01-2013, 01:48 PM
Dwyer got cut redman didn't, proof is in the pudding.

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/05/steelers-isaac-redman-10-pounds-lighter/

we have made mistakes before . if you think we haven't we can revisit some of them for you ... just let me know

oh here take another BIG drink since you think the team is beyond question in personnel decisions ....

http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/kool-aid.GIF

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 02:37 PM
we have made mistakes before . if you think we haven't we can revisit some of them for you ... just let me know

oh here take another BIG drink since you think the team is beyond question in personnel decisions ....

http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/kool-aid.GIF

Did I say that? No the question is why cut dwyer and not redman and it's pretty simple, dwyer has no role on this team now and especially when bell comes back. Redman has a role he has value that's why they cut dwyer. They didn't sit down and say well dwyer had 600yds last year so he makes the team, they sat down and said these are the roles we have for our running backs who are the best guys to fill those roles.

Dwinsgames
09-01-2013, 02:40 PM
Did I say that? No the question is why cut dwyer and not redman and it's pretty simple, dwyer has no role on this team now and especially when bell comes back. Redman has a role he has value that's why they cut dwyer. They didn't sit down and say well dwyer had 600yds last year so he makes the team, they sat down and said these are the roles we have for our running backs who are the best guys to fill those roles.



to the bold , Yes you did say that in so many words by saying
Dwyer got cut redman didn't, proof is in the pudding.
then again I will say this ...........

I for one am not convinced Redman can even be a short yardage guy at this stage if that is his " said role " ...

1) he reportedly dropped 20 pounds from last years playing weight , that would put him at 210ish

2) he is nursing a stinger not a injury to have for someone looking to lower their shoulder and pound for short yardage

Redman should have been cut instead of Dwyer

I say prove me wrong and I will admit being wrong but until then that is my thinking ... http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/ok.gif

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 03:14 PM
to the bold , Yes you did say that in so many words by saying
then again I will say this ...........

I for one am not convinced Redman can even be a short yardage guy at this stage if that is his " said role " ...

1) he reportedly dropped 20 pounds from last years playing weight , that would put him at 210ish

2) he is nursing a stinger not a injury to have for someone looking to lower their shoulder and pound for short yardage

Redman should have been cut instead of Dwyer

I say prove me wrong and I will admit being wrong but until then that is my thinking ... http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/ok.gif

that does not say you cant question personel decisions now does it? you wanted proof that the redman has more value to the steelers than dwyer and I said the proof is in the pudding because they kept redman and cut dwyer. Dwyer got cut how much more proof do you need?

Dwinsgames
09-01-2013, 04:08 PM
that does not say you cant question personel decisions now does it? you wanted proof that the redman has more value to the steelers than dwyer and I said the proof is in the pudding because they kept redman and cut dwyer. Dwyer got cut how much more proof do you need?


its not proof ... its their belief ....

if Redman is asked to be a complete Back and start and fails to deliver production greater than what Dwyer had in doing so it proves they failed to come to the proper evaluation of the two ...

past results lean towards that being the case ...

was Dwyer all world ? nobody has made that claim that I am aware

but he is superior to Redman and that is all anyone is saying ..

I believe they screwed up , its not the first time , nor will it be the last ....

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 05:05 PM
its not proof ... its their belief ....

if Redman is asked to be a complete Back and start and fails to deliver production greater than what Dwyer had in doing so it proves they failed to come to the proper evaluation of the two ...

past results lean towards that being the case ...

was Dwyer all world ? nobody has made that claim that I am aware

but he is superior to Redman and that is all anyone is saying ..

I believe they screwed up , its not the first time , nor will it be the last ....

It is proof! The Pittsburgh steelers decide who has value to them by signing and cutting players. The steelers thought redman had value to them and dwyer did not, that's a fact. It doesn't matter if you think dwyer is a better overall back than redman because the steelers said we have jones who is better than dwyer all around, we have redman for short yardage, we have howlings to give a rest to jones, and we have bell coming back who is going to be the feature back. There was no where for dwyer to play if they thought dwyer could be the starter they would of cut jones, if they thought dwyer was a good short yardage back they would of cut redman. Its not good as a back when your going into your 4th season and the biggest thing you can point to is you rushed for 600yds one season.

LLT
09-01-2013, 05:12 PM
Did I say that? No the question is why cut dwyer and not redman and it's pretty simple, dwyer has no role on this team now and especially when bell comes back. Redman has a role he has value that's why they cut dwyer. They didn't sit down and say well dwyer had 600yds last year so he makes the team, they sat down and said these are the roles we have for our running backs who are the best guys to fill those roles.

NO...thats wrong.

You are again confusing talent with team need.

Dwyer may very well have been the most talented back on this team (pending Bell actually playing and proving something). But Dwyer's talent was not enough to overcome his poor work ethic and the obvious fact that football was not important enough to him to do the small things that would force this team into actually needing him.

When the FO finished the equation....Dwyer was a talented back, but also a long term liability. Based on that simple fact, Dwyer was the more talented back but Redman became the more valuable.

Spike
09-01-2013, 05:13 PM
meanwhile, the Browns pass on Dwyer and take a Raven


the Browns claimed RB's Bobby Rainey and Dennis Johnson off waivers from the Baltimore Ravens and Houston Texans, respectively, according to multiple reports.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000237200/article/brandon-jackson-reportedly-cut-by-cleveland-browns

steeldawg
09-01-2013, 05:16 PM
NO...thats wrong.

You are again confusing talent with team need.

Dwyer may very well have been the most talented back on this team (pending Bell actually playing and proving something). But Dwyer's talent was not enough to overcome his poor work ethic and the obvious fact that football was not important enough to him to do the small things that would force this team into actually needing him.

When the FO finished the equation....Dwyer was a talented back, but also a long term liability.

How so? I never said redman was more talented than dwyer is said redman had a greater value to the team. Dwyer not the most talented back on the roster howlings, jones and bell all more talented and redman is pretty close to him.

Mojouw
09-01-2013, 05:25 PM
Until Bell proves otherwise, Fragile Felix Jones is the most talented back on the roster. I figure we get backfield by committee and lots of Tomlinisms about riding the hot hand yada-yada-yada. If Bell is shelved for 4+ games, I figure Jones (IF healthy) emerges as the preferred option. Assuming his assortment of injuries has not robbed him of the burst and explosion he had in his short Dallas hey-day. Man...that is a ton of ifs....

LLT
09-01-2013, 05:30 PM
How so? I never said redman was more talented than dwyer is said redman had a greater value to the team. Dwyer not the most talented back on the roster howlings, jones and bell all more talented and redman is pretty close to him.

Ah...now that I re-read what you said, I stand corrected. I thought you were trying to say that Dwyer was cut because he wasnt talented. Now that I look at your post I see that you are pretty much saying the same thing that I have been saying for the last two weeks.

Nighthawk
09-01-2013, 05:30 PM
Good luck to Dwyer, but I won't miss him. All reports of him having a terrible work ethic and being lazy make him the easier choice to cut. Can't have laziness in the locker room after last season.

LLT
09-01-2013, 05:35 PM
Good luck to Dwyer, but I won't miss him. All reports of him having a terrible work ethic and being lazy make him the easier choice to cut. Can't have laziness in the locker room after last season.

Exactly...its not just about him, but also about how that type of attitude can spread like a cancer,

stillers4me
09-01-2013, 05:42 PM
Seems he's still waiting for the phone to ring........

374300697006989312

Psycho Ward 86
09-01-2013, 07:30 PM
we have made mistakes before . if you think we haven't we can revisit some of them for you ... just let me know

oh here take another BIG drink since you think the team is beyond question in personnel decisions ....

http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/kool-aid.GIF

yeesh. calm your tits. lol...

TomlinSteelTribe
09-02-2013, 02:28 AM
And the fact that it's true (no sarcasm from me here despite yours) and Redman still made the team? So telling about how bad Dwyer is.

Don't think it's telling on how bad Dwyer is. If I were gonna guess why the guy's now unemployed, it would have more to do with his work ethic than his ability. Usually the types who work hard only intermittently aren't the greatest guys to have around the locker room. And with what happened last season regarding team chemistry... Complete extrapolation on my part but that's my guess.

TomlinSteelTribe
09-02-2013, 02:35 AM
So basically you are saying the Steelers do not have a single starting-caliber RB on the roster? Bell? I wasn't impressed with his east/west running style in college. The entire RB situation depends on the poor O-line.

As an every-down type RB? Probably not. I like LSH but think the wheels would fall off too quickly if you give him 20+ carries/game. I don't watch college ball but from what I've read re: Bell and his Michigan St. days, he didn't have much of an OL, nor a passing attack to pull defenders out of the box. Whether that's true or not, I have no idea. From what I've seen Bell looks better than anything else on the roster, which isn't saying much... We'll see.

And while the OL has some serious issues with pass protection, I expect runblocking to be a positive starting wk 1. The pass protection schemes might take a while longer. Hope not, though.

Nadroj 20
09-02-2013, 07:13 AM
374380721105674240

Nadroj 20
09-02-2013, 07:23 AM
Seems he's still waiting for the phone to ring........

374300697006989312

No surprise, teams will want to renegotiate a deal and not take on his current one.

- - - Updated - - -


Don't think it's telling on how bad Dwyer is. If I were gonna guess why the guy's now unemployed, it would have more to do with his work ethic than his ability. Usually the types who work hard only intermittently aren't the greatest guys to have around the locker room. And with what happened last season regarding team chemistry... Complete extrapolation on my part but that's my guess.

Yeah this is the only way I'll except a reason for Dwyer being cut. Talent wise he was better then Redman, had more to offer then just a scat back in LSH and was more durable then Jones. Plus his talent isn't far behind or at all behind a Jones that has underachieved his whole career.

If you look at it on paper it was a horrible cut, but sometimes as you said, removing what may be a problem in the locker room is more important especially when he isn't a talent that is worth the headache. Which I have learned must be very very talented in order to put up with.

steeldawg
09-02-2013, 07:54 AM
374380721105674240

Ya exactly your not going to pay your 5th string running back 1.3 million dollars, financially it was a no brainer. Im not sure if they wanted him gone but they are the ones who made the decision to cut him. I said it already when the steelers placed the 1.3 million dollar tenders on redman and dwyer it meant one of them was going to be cut, I thought it would be dwyer because he was the only one without a role.

steeldawg
09-02-2013, 08:10 AM
As an every-down type RB? Probably not. I like LSH but think the wheels would fall off too quickly if you give him 20+ carries/game. I don't watch college ball but from what I've read re: Bell and his Michigan St. days, he didn't have much of an OL, nor a passing attack to pull defenders out of the box. Whether that's true or not, I have no idea. From what I've seen Bell looks better than anything else on the roster, which isn't saying much... We'll see.

And while the OL has some serious issues with pass protection, I expect runblocking to be a positive starting wk 1. The pass protection schemes might take a while longer. Hope not, though.

I like Bell a lot he was beast in college and a workhorse, he was never injured in college an was an every down back he is going to be a good one for us I think. Talent wise bell is the best on roster with felix jones second howlings third and redman 4th. I agree about our runblocking being a positive week one I liked what our o-line was doing in the running game preseason. Pass protection I just don't know whats going to happen but I am hoping its good.

Nadroj 20
09-02-2013, 08:28 AM
Ya exactly your not going to pay your 5th string running back 1.3 million dollars, financially it was a no brainer. Im not sure if they wanted him gone but they are the ones who made the decision to cut him. I said it already when the steelers placed the 1.3 million dollar tenders on redman and dwyer it meant one of them was going to be cut, I thought it would be dwyer because he was the only one without a role.

You do realize he wouldn't have been our 5th string back if we kept him. He may have started week 1 instead of Jones.

86WARD
09-02-2013, 08:45 AM
Teams most likely passed on Dwyer because of salary issues...now that he has cleared, they can sign him to the $715,000 (four-year) minimum salary apposed to claiming him for the $1.2-1.3+ Million. Smart move.

steeldawg
09-02-2013, 08:48 AM
You do realize he wouldn't have been our 5th string back if we kept him. He may have started week 1 instead of Jones.


Lol ya im sure it was a toss up between Starter and Cut. I can see it now do we make him the week one starter or do we cut him, ah lets cut him who needs a starting running back. Let's face it steelers where ready to start bell jones redman and howlings before dwyer that's why dwyer is cut, there is nothing left to realize or speculate.

bayz101
09-02-2013, 08:51 AM
Ya exactly your not going to pay your 5th string running back 1.3 million dollars, financially it was a no brainer. Im not sure if they wanted him gone but they are the ones who made the decision to cut him. I said it already when the steelers placed the 1.3 million dollar tenders on redman and dwyer it meant one of them was going to be cut, I thought it would be dwyer because he was the only one without a role.

5th string? Who do you think you're kidding? Based on preseason performances and his numbers last year he would have been either a starter or a second-stringer. He wasn't cut because of his performances. He was cut because of his attitude. His chemistry with the rest of the team. The front office released that someone who's not got his heart with the team isn't worth any kind of money, no matter HOW valuable he is to the team as an asset. Look at Santonio Holmes.

steeldawg
09-02-2013, 09:03 AM
5th string? Who do you think you're kidding? Based on preseason performances and his numbers last year he would have been either a starter or a second-stringer. He wasn't cut because of his performances. He was cut because of his attitude. His chemistry with the rest of the team. The front office released that someone who's not got his heart with the team isn't worth any kind of money, no matter HOW valuable he is to the team as an asset. Look at Santonio Holmes.

Omg you people are nuts there was no shot dwyer was starting this year HE GOT CUT! You don't cut your starter in the nfl and there is no way on earth he is better than bell, jones, or howings, and its a debate with redman. Get serious you don't cut your starting running back in nfl because he has an attitude problem this isn't high school football. Oh and you also don't put your starting running back in kick return wedge during preseason and the punt team during a 4th preseason game.

bayz101
09-02-2013, 09:12 AM
Omg you people are nuts there was no shot dwyer was starting this year HE GOT CUT! You don't cut your starter in the nfl and there is no way on earth he is better than bell, jones, or howings, and its a debate with redman. Get serious you don't cut your starting running back in nfl because he has an attitude problem this isn't high school football. Oh and you also don't put your starting running back in kick return wedge during preseason and the punt team during a 4th preseason game.

Nice personal attack. We all appreciate it!

Here, have this: http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/18161-Report-Steelers-coaching-staff-not-behind-release-of-Jonathan-Dwyer

You see, the coaching staff allegedly wasn't even behind his release. Starters DO get cut, especially if they have character issues that can be detrimental to the team! Dwyer has long had weight issues, and this year it's been questioned whether or not he's fully committed to the team, but you CANNOT deny that he was our #1 Statistical running back LAST YEAR and you CANNOT deny he wasn't one of the better runners this preseason because you'd be dead wrong on both counts!

Whether it be character issues, commitment issues, chemistry issues or even off-field issues, Starters CAN be cut, traded, waived and released in the NFL!

steeldawg
09-02-2013, 09:36 AM
Nice personal attack. We all appreciate it!

Here, have this: http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/18161-Report-Steelers-coaching-staff-not-behind-release-of-Jonathan-Dwyer

You see, the coaching staff allegedly wasn't even behind his release. Starters DO get cut, especially if they have character issues that can be detrimental to the team! Dwyer has long had weight issues, and this year it's been questioned whether or not he's fully committed to the team, but you CANNOT deny that he was our #1 Statistical running back LAST YEAR and you CANNOT deny he wasn't one of the better runners this preseason because you'd be dead wrong on both counts!

Whether it be character issues, commitment issues, chemistry issues or even off-field issues, Starters CAN be cut, traded, waived and released in the NFL!

Whos denying he was our statistical leader last year, you also cant deny we were the 26th ranked rushing offense in the league and dwyer was the lowest yds leader to lead a team in the past 20 years. You also also can not deny his eye popping 623yds in 13 games during that magical season, which I don't know averages out to less than 50 yds a game and lets not forget those 2 whopping touchdowns and all of this he accomplished after being on the team for just 3 years. Oh and lets not forget we tried to trade dwyer after last season. Yes starters can be traded or waived or released in the nfl but not when they are going to be the #1 back for the season that starts in less than a week. Also teams wouldn't release a starting running back whos 24 and making 1.3 million for the season. You guys all over this league who start who have killed people and teams wont get rid of them, why is that? Because this a business and peoples jobs are at stake that's why!

Dwinsgames
09-02-2013, 10:39 AM
you just can't fix stupid ....

this is not directed towards anyone specific ( thus not a personal attack ) , if it stings then perhaps you need to look in the mirror after all if the shoe fits ......

I am done in this topic

Psycho Ward 86
09-02-2013, 10:47 AM
"omg, you people are nuts?"

thats a personal attack? last i checked, people is plural and thats pretty vague at best. why do people feel the need to attack an out-of-the-limb opinion? you people do know this is a forum right?

stillers4me
09-02-2013, 10:55 AM
Nice personal attack. We all appreciate it!

Here, have this: http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/18161-Report-Steelers-coaching-staff-not-behind-release-of-Jonathan-Dwyer

You see, the coaching staff allegedly wasn't even behind his release. Starters DO get cut, especially if they have character issues that can be detrimental to the team! Dwyer has long had weight issues, and this year it's been questioned whether or not he's fully committed to the team, but you CANNOT deny that he was our #1 Statistical running back LAST YEAR and you CANNOT deny he wasn't one of the better runners this preseason because you'd be dead wrong on both counts!

Whether it be character issues, commitment issues, chemistry issues or even off-field issues, Starters CAN be cut, traded, waived and released in the NFL!

Did any of you bother to click on the link and read the atricle???


The article is about his contract and perceived value.........

Chidi29
09-02-2013, 11:39 AM
5th string? Who do you think you're kidding? Based on preseason performances and his numbers last year he would have been either a starter or a second-stringer. He wasn't cut because of his performances. He was cut because of his attitude. His chemistry with the rest of the team. The front office released that someone who's not got his heart with the team isn't worth any kind of money, no matter HOW valuable he is to the team as an asset. Look at Santonio Holmes.

Dwyer began the preseason as the #4 RB...so that assertion really isn't that far off.

Nadroj 20
09-02-2013, 11:46 AM
The question I have is why would the coaches not be behind is release if there were huge character issues?

Wouldn't they be sick of him too? But no they apparently would have liked to keep him.

stillers4me
09-02-2013, 11:55 AM
I really don't know why everybody is so upset about the release of an average (at best) running back. We have a whole stable of them. Nothing lost here.

Shoes
09-02-2013, 12:12 PM
:chuckle:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDABsomwj3c

steeldawg
09-02-2013, 12:28 PM
Did any of you bother to click on the link and read the atricle???


The article is about his contract and perceived value.........

I read it and I already said at the beginning of camp dwyer would be cut because of the tender when that tender was put on redman and dwyer it meant one was getting cut. Redman has value in our short yardage game dwyer really doesn't fit anywhere thus dwyer is cut. He's arguing that if dwyer wasn't cut he was going to start, that's completely ridiculous. If the steelers where going to start him they would not of cut him, any team would jump at the chance to have a 24 year old starting running back making 1.3 mil (if he's good). The whole point to why he was cut is because he wasn't going to be the starter and there was no plan for him to be the starter so where does that leave him? Either you cut him or you pay 1.3 million dollars to a guy fighting for a 4th or 5th position spot on the team.

steeldawg
09-02-2013, 12:34 PM
The question I have is why would the coaches not be behind is release if there were huge character issues?

Wouldn't they be sick of him too? But no they apparently would have liked to keep him.

Im sure they did want to keep him but because he's not going to start or be #2 or #3 short yardage back or #4 homerun threat its hard to justify to ownership keeping him at 1.3 million dollars.

fansince'76
09-02-2013, 12:46 PM
I really don't know why everybody is so upset about the release of an average (at best) running back. We have a whole stable of them. Nothing lost here.

Bingo. I fail to see how cutting Dwyer loose was a "big" mistake.

Considering that this team was 26th in rushing last year, I doubt we notice Dwyer's absence whatsoever...

Nadroj 20
09-02-2013, 12:46 PM
I really don't know why everybody is so upset about the release of an average (at best) running back. We have a whole stable of them. Nothing lost here.

I'm most upset because they aren't really healthy.

Chidi29
09-02-2013, 01:10 PM
I'm most upset because they aren't really healthy.

Sounds like Redman is ok. And Howling played in the 4th game. Add Jones and you have three backs.

374588426860765185

steeldawg
09-02-2013, 01:16 PM
Sounds like Redman is ok. And Howling played in the 4th game. Add Jones and you have three backs.

374588426860765185

Good news!

stillers4me
09-02-2013, 01:19 PM
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steeldawg
09-02-2013, 01:19 PM
374594552369131521

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374596805750562816

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374594724180402177

Oh ya now we are talking!

stillers4me
09-02-2013, 01:20 PM
374594508375064576

BND65
09-02-2013, 03:33 PM
Do you think that cutting Dwyer has been the plan all along, and were shopping him to see if they could get something for him? With no takers, he got cut.

Nadroj 20
09-02-2013, 04:01 PM
Sounds like Redman is ok. And Howling played in the 4th game. Add Jones and you have three backs.

374588426860765185

Alright I guess better word is injury prone. Every guy you mentioned has either been hurt already this short season or has a history of injuries. You can't dispute that.

I'm already over Dwyer getting cut. I knew I would be in a few days. I just hope we don't end up needing someone. Hopefully it's a non issue.

fansince'76
09-02-2013, 05:54 PM
374594508375064576

Suddenness and glide! :chuckle:

Master Blaster
09-03-2013, 06:43 AM
According to Dale Lolley the Steelers cut Dwyer because they were tired of his constant weight issues, immaturity, lackadaisical attitude, poor study habits, and showing up to meetings late. Dwyer showed up to the O.T.A.'s thirty lbs. overweight and that angered the coaching staff because there was no excuse for him to show up overweight and out of shape. The blame for his release falls squarely on Dwyer's shoulders.

Count Steeler
09-03-2013, 08:03 AM
According to Dale Lolley the Steelers cut Dwyer because they were tired of his constant weight issues, immaturity, lackadaisical attitude, poor study habits, and showing up to meetings late. Dwyer showed up to the O.T.A.'s thirty lbs. overweight and that angered the coaching staff because there was no excuse for him to show up overweight and out of shape. The blame for his release falls squarely on Dwyer's shoulders.

Shows no respect for himself, nor for the Steelers organization. He was given many chances and he blew it.

NCSteeler
09-03-2013, 09:55 AM
Shows no respect for himself, nor for the Steelers organization. He was given many chances and he blew it.

If Coach is would PUP a star 1st rounder like Hampton for weight issues, it should be no surprise he would dump low round pick who hasn't contributed much, for the same issues. It's not like he was going to be our workhorse back, 2nd and 3rd string RBs come and go all the time in the NFL.

Dwinsgames
09-03-2013, 09:56 AM
According to Dale Lolley the Steelers cut Dwyer because they were tired of his constant weight issues, immaturity, lackadaisical attitude, poor study habits, and showing up to meetings late. Dwyer showed up to the O.T.A.'s thirty lbs. overweight and that angered the coaching staff because there was no excuse for him to show up overweight and out of shape. The blame for his release falls squarely on Dwyer's shoulders.


kind of bullshit IMO here is why ...

1) OTA's are voluntary what shape you are in when you do not even have to be there is pretty shitty reasoning ... and when he had to be there he was in shape so kind of makes the former irrelevant considering it was NOT mandatory ( he could have stayed home and nobody would have known his weight or conditioning )

2) he was the most productive back on the roster with just 6 starts in a 16 week season ....

3) he was the only returning back ( and only back on the roster the entire training camp and preseason that was healthy )

4) he was the most productive back in the preseason as well

5) if he was always late and a poor student , immature lackadaisical etc etc one would think the Coaches would be first in line to want him gone and according to published articles that was not the case

I do not know why Dwyer was cut , there is a reason no doubt but what that reason is I doubt we will ever know , it certainly was not to keep the less productive Redman who many here call our short yardage power back because if the reports on him are true I doubt he is a power back at this juncture ( recovering from a stinger ) and supposedly down 20 pounds from last years playing weight of 230 .... not many 210 pound short yardage power backs in this league in this era ... just sayin

LLT
09-03-2013, 10:37 AM
kind of bullshit IMO here is why ...

.....if he was always late and a poor student , immature lackadaisical etc etc one would think the Coaches would be first in line to want him gone and according to published articles that was not the case



I have been wondering the same thing..and here is what worries me.

Is this the VERY thing that might be Tomlins fatal flaw? With the "locker room issues" from last year and with the Front Office having to step in and remove a player with poor work ethic and "cancer-like" characteristics....Is Tomlin and upper management not in sync as to what is the "Steelers way"?

fansince'76
09-03-2013, 10:48 AM
...and with the Front Office having to step in and remove a player with poor work ethic and "cancer-like" characteristics...

I take reports like that with a healthy grain of salt, personally.

Master Blaster
09-04-2013, 06:09 AM
Bingo. I fail to see how cutting Dwyer loose was a "big" mistake.

Considering that this team was 26th in rushing last year, I doubt we notice Dwyer's absence whatsoever...
Bingo! This whole discussion is a complete waste of time. Some of you people are devoid of the ability to keep things in proper perspective. You're arguing about two running backs that, in my opinion, have yet to prove they are anything more than solid backups.

Nadroj 20
09-04-2013, 07:04 AM
Lol ya im sure it was a toss up between Starter and Cut. I can see it now do we make him the week one starter or do we cut him, ah lets cut him who needs a starting running back. Let's face it steelers where ready to start bell jones redman and howlings before dwyer that's why dwyer is cut, there is nothing left to realize or speculate.

Well I saw you admit that Dwyer may be better then Redman and yet Redman is good enough to start. So if it wasn't for the other issues I guess the Steelers had with Dwyer it WAS a toss up between starter and cut.

NCSteeler
09-04-2013, 07:31 AM
If Dwyer is so damn good, then I'm sure he'll be snapped up for a high dollar contract any day now. I'm in completely agree with Master Blaster, the debate is moot, neither Dwyer or Redman are worth worrying about.

steeldawg
09-04-2013, 09:42 AM
Well I saw you admit that Dwyer may be better then Redman and yet Redman is good enough to start. So if it wasn't for the other issues I guess the Steelers had with Dwyer it WAS a toss up between starter and cut.
Better, no they are pretty equal as starters where redman seperates himself as far as value is in short yardage goaline and receiving. Again Dwyer had no value to our roster tomlin already came out and said he was the odd man out.

Master Blaster
09-04-2013, 11:07 AM
If Dwyer is so damn good, then I'm sure he'll be snapped up for a high dollar contract any day now. I'm in completely agree with Master Blaster, the debate is moot, neither Dwyer or Redman are worth worrying about.
The Giants are reportedly showing interest in signing him. You can bet that based on his body of work and his immaturity issues they don't see him as a feature back either. In addition the Giants' owners and the Steelers' owners have a close friendship and the Giants are well aware of the issues the Steelers had with him. If they, (the Giants) do sign him it will be because they need a healthy running back with some experience to fill a need for the foreseeable future.

Dwinsgames
09-08-2013, 03:23 PM
we also know that THIS Steelers coaching staff and GM are not always correct in player evaluations especially in terms to RBs ... last year we Cut Dujuan Harris and he ended up not only starting for the Packers but was successful at it when he got the call , all the while we went with a RB by committee approach and Harris was the starter until hurt this season over TWO highly touted draft picks ( Lacy and Franklin ) ... Yet he " wasn't good enough " to be a Steeler even in backup duty .....


so tow the party line all you like but the fact remains these guys are fallible and they have been fallible all along ...

just because they get paid to make these determinations does not automatically make them correct when doing so and sometimes the fans know best ....


as a side note .....

I for one am not convinced Redman can even be a short yardage guy at this stage ...

1) he reportedly dropped 20 pounds from last years playing weight , that would put him at 210ish

2) he is nursing a stinger not a injury to have for someone looking to lower their shoulder and pound for short yardage

Redman should have been cut instead of Dwyer

I say prove me wrong and I will admit being wrong but until then that is my thinking ... http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/ok.gif

this

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Steeldawg as you where saying about Fred Jackson being " washed up "

13 caries today , 67 yards 5.2 YPC .....

and you want us to yield to your " superior RB evaluations" ummm well hmmmm ..... I think not

steeldawg
09-08-2013, 03:26 PM
this

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Steeldawg as you where saying about Fred Jackson being " washed up "

13 caries today , 67 yards 5.2 YPC .....

and you want us to yield to your " superior RB evaluations" ummm well hmmmm ..... I think not

Fred Jackson?

Dwinsgames
09-08-2013, 03:28 PM
Fred Jackson?


look it up , you stated he was washed up somewhere in this thread

steeldawg
09-08-2013, 03:38 PM
look it up , you stated he was washed up somewhere in this thread

I just went through all my posts I didn't say anything about fred Jackson nor do I see anyone talking about fred Jackson.

Nadroj 20
09-08-2013, 03:41 PM
this

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Steeldawg as you where saying about Fred Jackson being " washed up "

13 caries today , 67 yards 5.2 YPC .....

and you want us to yield to your " superior RB evaluations" ummm well hmmmm ..... I think not

Just searched the thread. That discussion was with Chidi

Dwinsgames
09-08-2013, 03:42 PM
I just went through all my posts I didn't say anything about fred Jackson nor do I see anyone talking about fred Jackson.

you MIGHT not have named him by name , it was a reply to my post and you said ( I am paraphrasing here because I do not have it at my finger tips ) " a washed up RB " again may not be word for word but that is the meaning of what was said

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Just searched the thread. That discussion was with Chidi

oh my bad , my apologies steeldawg

ALLD
09-08-2013, 03:45 PM
It's safe to say Redman's attention will not be diverted from starring in a bunch of Coke and Campbell's soup commercials.

steeldawg
09-08-2013, 03:58 PM
I don't know if any running back would of helped us today, the oline not very good and after that first drive titans just adjusted to our short passing game and brought pressure we couldn't get the ball down the field to back them off. Play calling was crap you could see the frustration on bens face.

Dwinsgames
09-08-2013, 04:41 PM
If the over the hill Fred Jackson and the guy traded for Adrian Robinson are the benchmarks for a successful season, then we're in a world of trouble.




Jackson today 13 carries 67 yards for a 5.2 YPC is washed up I will take 2 heaping shovels full of that over Redman 10 times out of 10

Redman today 8 carries 9 yards 1.1 YPC and 2 fumbles

as you where saying about " washed up " :eyebrows:

Psycho Ward 86
09-08-2013, 04:44 PM
Jackson today 13 carries 67 yards for a 5.2 YPC is washed up I will take 2 heaping shovels full of that over Redman 10 times out of 10

Redman today 8 carries 9 yards 1.1 YPC and 2 fumbles

as you where saying about " washed up " :eyebrows:

congratulations captain hindsight! you have won a cookie

Dwinsgames
09-08-2013, 04:48 PM
congratulations captain hindsight! you have won a cookie


nothing hindsight about it captain dickhead and you win a Kordell jersey

Godfather
09-08-2013, 05:14 PM
I don't wanna hear about no ifs. All I wanna hear from is, the Steelers ain't got no problem. We're on it. Chill them fans out and wait for the cavalry which should be coming directly:

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/18113893/20130503_jla_al8_047.0_standard_352.0.jpg

Count Steeler
09-08-2013, 05:17 PM
I don't wanna hear about no ifs. All I wanna hear from is, the Steelers ain't got no problem. We're on it. Chill them fans out and wait for the cavalry which should be coming directly:

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/18113893/20130503_jla_al8_047.0_standard_352.0.jpg

Does he come with some O Linemen as well? He gonna need them.

Psycho Ward 86
09-08-2013, 05:27 PM
lol. leveon's return will do little. clearly the core of our problems was the O-line. As usual smh...

if its any consolation all of the other afc north teams lost. and our shitty attempt at any vertical attack wouldnt have been helped by mike wallace if he were still here. 1 catch for 15 yards for those who havent heard :lol:

Nadroj 20
09-08-2013, 06:20 PM
The online sucks but still no excuse to fumble twice and lose one.

I agree we still would have struggled running the ball, but Redman was still really really bad.

86WARD
09-08-2013, 07:56 PM
But Redman is sooo good to the passing game. Lol...