Bill to allow gay marriage in Pennsylvania

[GoSlash27]

Just so you all know, gays can't sue churches for refusing to marry them. 1st Amendment. They *can* get their tax exempt status revoked for political advocacy, but that's very difficult to pull off and usually doesn't work.
You should also know that there are already churches out there that are more than happy to perform the service for them. They'd do it tomorrow if the government would let them.

[GoSlash27]

I'm all for discussion...especially in the offseason when Steelers' talk is a bit tough to come by. And I don't want it to be a place where we all just pat each other on the back and never disagree. That's boring.

But I feel part of what was being discussed wasn't very constructive or relevant. It doesn't lead us any further to an answer. So we just go around in circles for two days until eventually one of the Admins gets fed up and locks the thread.

As I stated up- stream, we've already agreed on an answer; get the government out of the "marriage" business and there's nothing to fight over.
Now we're just talkin'.

Speaking of... we haven't heard from SteelGal on this subject yet. I'm looking forward to that...

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Marriage is a personal contract to be intimately and emotionally committed to only one lover.

That's it? A monogamy pact?

[Seven]

By that definition gays shouldn't be excluded from it.

No, not strictly by definition. But that's ignoring everything else that has already been discussed in this thread. It's easy to make a decision when you pare down the debate and focus on one sole aspect, but unfortunately things aren't that simple. There are far more aspects to this issue than we've even come close to discussing. I don't think we have been able to effectively separate the intellectual discussion from the emotional one, and they're two different things.

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I'm all for discussion...especially in the offseason when Steelers' talk is a bit tough to come by. And I don't want it to be a place where we all just pat each other on the back and never disagree. That's boring.

But I feel part of what was being discussed wasn't very constructive or relevant. It doesn't lead us any further to an answer. So we just go around in circles for two days until eventually one of the Admins gets fed up and locks the thread.

Fair enough.

[Seven]

That's it? A monogamy pact?

Emotionally, that's what I feel it should mean and that's what I want it to mean. I realize my perspective isn't the end all be all, though. I'm sure there are many who value marriage for just about everything but an agreement of monogamy, but in spirit, I feel that's what marriage is.

[steeldawg]

Did it ever occur to you that it's nature's plan that men's sexual appetite is to be somewhat contained by the female? That to keep men from being total whorebag sluts, nature made it so we would have to work to obtain it. That sex isn't to be taken for granted, that in order to succeed we'd either have to stand out in some way or give something of ourselves to show ourselves worthy. Look at animals in nature. The female in heat usually doesn't hook up with the first suitor that comes along. Nature makes her more choosy than that. She looks for favorable traits that will be passed on to her brood.

Well in effect that's the way it works with hetrosexuals. And maybe as an animal species that sort of give and take is good for the mind and soul as well as your physical well being.

One last poor analogy and I'm done. :chuckle: Two men are like a highway without a speed limit or warning signs on the curves. In other words it's a wreck waiting to happen.

Even if that where true, nature created gay people, so if women were created with a purpose then so were gay people. And lets not make women out to be saints here they are not as promiscuous as men but they are still up there. When I was in college Girls were crazy there was ass on tap, they certainly weren't looking for suitable males to breed children. Also I think with women wanting to use more contraception to prevent pregnacy shows their desire to have more recreational sex. Now there is nothing wrong with any of this a persons body is their business, if someone wants to have 1 partner or 20 partners they can and that should also haveno bearing on wether that person should be allowed to marry.

[GoSlash27]

Emotionally, that's what I feel it should mean and that's what I want it to mean. I realize my perspective isn't the end all be all, though. I'm sure there are many who value marriage for just about everything but an agreement of monogamy, but in spirit, I feel that's what marriage is.

What is the purpose of a monogamy pact? If 2 people decide that they want to be together and understand that infidelity will not be tolerated, then shouldn't that fact alone make them want to be faithful to their partner?

[steeldawg]

What is the purpose of a monogamy pact? If 2 people decide that they want to be together and understand that infidelity will not be tolerated, then shouldn't that fact alone make them want to be faithful to their partner?

I agree its not like couples who want to be monogamous only start after they are married.

[zulater]

Even if that where true, nature created gay people, so if women were created with a purpose then so were gay people. And lets not make women out to be saints here they are not as promiscuous as men but they are still up there. When I was in college Girls were crazy there was ass on tap, they certainly weren't looking for suitable males to breed children. Also I think with women wanting to use more contraception to prevent pregnacy shows their desire to have more recreational sex. Now there is nothing wrong with any of this a persons body is their business, if someone wants to have 1 partner or 20 partners they can and that should also haveno bearing on wether that person should be allowed to marry.

I get all of what you're saying. My only point is about the way we're hard wired by nature. Yeah obviously as thinking beings we can override our natural inclinations, but it doesn't just go away. That's why even those of us that aren't religious feel guilt, remorse and oft times shame when we step outside the parameters of our assigned stereotypical sexual roles.

[steeldawg]

I get all of what you're saying. My only point is about the way we're hard wired by nature. Yeah obviously as thinking beings we can override our natural inclinations, but it doesn't just go away. That's why even those of us that aren't religious feel guilt, remorse and oft times shame when we step outside the parameters of our assigned stereotypical sexual roles.

but for gays that is their natural sexual role since they are born with the natural attraction to the same sex. So they hardwired to be naturally attracted to the same sex and asking them to go against that would be asking to act unnatural. That is the very reason that no matter how hard we have tried to rid people of homosexuality we just cant do it, it is in their very nature to be gay.

[GoSlash27]

I get all of what you're saying. My only point is about the way we're hard wired by nature. Yeah obviously as thinking beings we can override our natural inclinations, but it doesn't just go away. That's why even those of us that aren't religious feel guilt, remorse and oft times shame when we step outside the parameters of our assigned stereotypical sexual roles.

Pretty much what steeldawg said. As a thinking being, there are some inclinations that just plain can't be overridden. Your attraction to women, for example. You weren't taught to like women. You didn't learn it through example by your parents or peer pressure. You didn't sit down, weigh the options, and make the conscious decision to be straight based on social pressure or morality.
All you know is pretty girls made you feel funny from a very young age and you wanted one even if you didn't know what you were supposed to do with her.
You might be able to convince yourself to have sex with men and avoid sex with women if you really tried, but you'd never be able to convince yourself to actually become attracted to men or to stop being attracted to women.
It's that hard- wiring you're talking about, and gay folks are wired that way. They're no more capable of resisting it than you are. You may prefer the term "faulty" and steeldawg may prefer the term "natural", but whatever you choose to call it, it's different.

[zulater]

but for gays that is their natural sexual role since they are born with the natural attraction to the same sex. So they hardwired to be naturally attracted to the same sex and asking them to go against that would be asking to act unnatural. That is the very reason that no matter how hard we have tried to rid people of homosexuality we just cant do it, it is in their very nature to be gay.

Don't disagree with that at all.But it's also in their nature to feel guilt and shame over their chosen lifestyle. And while you would blame most of that guilt on family and religion I contend that much of that guilt derives from within as it's hard wired into your DNA that you're not as you're supposed to be if you're different.


And again I'm in no way opposed to Gay marriage. I just understand why some are.

[GoSlash27]

Don't disagree with that at all.But it's also in their nature to feel guilt and shame over their chosen lifestyle. And while you would blame most of that guilt on family and religion I contend that much of that guilt derives from within as it's hard wired into your DNA that you're not as you're supposed to be if you're different.


And again I'm in no way opposed to Gay marriage. I just understand why some are.

No doubt, which is why gays have such a high suicide rate. They're not really happy being that way, but they weren't given a choice in the matter. Like I said, I don't envy them.

But the opposition to gay marriage really serves no constructive purpose if you reason it out. Making something legal doesn't condone it, but even if it did... the point of making something illegal is to deter it. Even making homosexuality *itself* illegal wouldn't deter it, because these people aren't making a conscious choice to be gay. All you can do is set up a system that punishes these people for being who they are with no benefit for them or the rest of society.

[steeldawg]

Don't disagree with that at all.But it's also in their nature to feel guilt and shame over their chosen lifestyle. And while you would blame most of that guilt on family and religion I contend that much of that guilt derives from within as it's hard wired into your DNA that you're not as you're supposed to be if you're different.


And again I'm in no way opposed to Gay marriage. I just understand why some are.

Well society has to be the one to blame because society has placed the stigma on being gay, society and religion has taught that gay is wrong unnatural and evil. That's why we are seeing so many people coming out of the closet nowadays because of the acceptance. Nature certainly didn't put labels on gay people, but now we are seeing gays coming out with pride and in force. I don't think its accurate to say they are not happy with who they are because there are plenty who look positively thrilled, Im not surprised the suicide rate is higher among gays but I don't think its because of natural guilt I think its because of guilt brought on by ignorant people and religions telling them there is something wrong with them.

[zulater]

Well society has to be the one to blame because society has placed the stigma on being gay, society and religion has taught that gay is wrong unnatural and evil. That's why we are seeing so many people coming out of the closet nowadays because of the acceptance. Nature certainly didn't put labels on gay people, but now we are seeing gays coming out with pride and in force. I don't think its accurate to say they are not happy with who they are because there are plenty who look positively thrilled, Im not surprised the suicide rate is higher among gays but I don't think its because of natural guilt I think its because of guilt brought on by ignorant people and religions telling them there is something wrong with them.

Yeah well that's no shock that you'd blame it all on religion and society as a whole.

[steeldawg]

Yeah well that's no shock that you'd blame it all on religion and society as a whole.

Who labeled the gays as wrong, unnatural, evil, who classified it as a mental disorder, who was putting gay people to death, who was trying to cure people of being gay, gays certainly weren't doing it to each other. I don't know who else you would blame.

[Seven]

Who labeled the gays as wrong, unnatural, evil, who classified it as a mental disorder, who was putting gay people to death, who was trying to cure people of being gay, gays certainly weren't doing it to each other. I don't know who else you would blame.

Don't blame this solely on religion. I'm not religious, but there were other forces at work here, too. I know atheists who strongly believe being gay is wrong. Just because the religious are the last to adopt the new politically correct view on gay marriage doesn't mean it's entirely their fault that they are only now starting to see equal rights.

[Seven]

What is the purpose of a monogamy pact? If 2 people decide that they want to be together and understand that infidelity will not be tolerated, then shouldn't that fact alone make them want to be faithful to their partner?

You could ask what the purpose is of just about anything we do. What's the purpose of winning an award or celebrating a birthday? Nothing about a lot of what we do physically exists or has a purpose, but it's still meaningful. It evokes emotional pleasure or gives us an excuse to have a party or ceremony, a bookmark or anchor in our life that we can reflect on. It's all about tradition. But we're going in circles. I think you have a pretty clear idea of what I think marriage should be by now.

[GoSlash27]

You could ask what the purpose is of just about anything we do. What's the purpose of winning an award or celebrating a birthday? Nothing about a lot of what we do physically exists or has a purpose, but it's still meaningful. It evokes emotional pleasure or gives us an excuse to have a party or ceremony, a bookmark or anchor in our life that we can reflect on. It's all about tradition. But we're going in circles. I think you have a pretty clear idea of what I think marriage should be by now.

Actually, I don't. And not to put too fine a point on it, but I'm not sure you do either. Or at the very least you're having trouble expressing it.
Marriage as a tradition exists everywhere humans exist, and it exists because it serves a useful role in society. Before you can make a judgement call on whether changing marriage is a good thing or a bad thing, you have to have a clear understanding of why we get married in the first place and what purpose it serves.

[Craic]

I think its because of guilt brought on by ignorant people and religions telling them there is something wrong with them.

And I think that a good amount of it is because there's something deeper down going on within many who are gay, and both their sexual orientation and suicidal aspirations are a result of it. I am not saying everyone, or even a vast majority, but a good number of them.

The ugly little secret that many don't want to talk about is that past traumatic experience, especially sexual experience, has a lot of lasting consequences. Let me illustrate for you. I was counselling someone a long, LONG time ago (story changed enough that no one would ever be able to guess who it is, though this was years before I was ever on this board anyway). That person was gay. S/he told me that the older brother/sister tied them down to a bed and let the friends take their turns at the person. Mom and dad never believed that it was happening, and it happened a few times.

Now, this person is gay/lesbian. Honestly, my first comment back to them was, "of course you are, and if I went through all that, I probably would be too. What else do you do when the two closest people to you of the opposite sex, your own family, destroy your trust in that sex so thoroughly?" By the end, that person could absolutely see the choices that were made, were made based off the incidents that happend as a child/teenager, and NOT out of "nature."

In short, it falls into the same overall bin as sex-workers. You'd be amazed at the vast majority of sex workers that report sexual abuse of one type or another when they were young. It messes up sexual develop something fierce, involves levels of the psyche so deeply that no one can really understand it, and ends up sending people down all types of paths (hence, why rape victims will sometimes look to almost be nymphomaniacs within a few months).

All of that to say, it is simplistic in the extreme to lay the blame on "society" and "religion," when there are so many other factors involved. The biggest problem, IMO, is that there's such a rush to say "it's okay and there's nothing wrong with you," that for those who there actually IS something wrong with, they're being driven further into their problems.

And no, I don't believe the above equals all homosexuality. There are some people for whom the above is true, and others for whom it is not.

[Seven]

Actually, I don't. And not to put too fine a point on it, but I'm not sure you do either. Or at the very least you're having trouble expressing it.
Marriage as a tradition exists everywhere humans exist, and it exists because it serves a useful role in society. Before you can make a judgement call on whether changing marriage is a good thing or a bad thing, you have to have a clear understanding of why we get married in the first place and what purpose it serves.

I have a very clear idea of exactly what I think marriage should be. If you can't understand, or rather don't see meaning in my version of it, that's fine. But Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean someone else's "judgement call" is invalidated. By that token I shouldn't believe in gay rights, since I don't have a "clear understanding" of why people are gay or what "purpose" being gay serves. But I suppose a difference between the two circumstances will be fabricated.

[steeldawg]

And I think that a good amount of it is because there's something deeper down going on within many who are gay, and both their sexual orientation and suicidal aspirations are a result of it. I am not saying everyone, or even a vast majority, but a good number of them.

The ugly little secret that many don't want to talk about is that past traumatic experience, especially sexual experience, has a lot of lasting consequences. Let me illustrate for you. I was counselling someone a long, LONG time ago (story changed enough that no one would ever be able to guess who it is, though this was years before I was ever on this board anyway). That person was gay. S/he told me that the older brother/sister tied them down to a bed and let the friends take their turns at the person. Mom and dad never believed that it was happening, and it happened a few times.

Now, this person is gay/lesbian. Honestly, my first comment back to them was, "of course you are, and if I went through all that, I probably would be too. What else do you do when the two closest people to you of the opposite sex, your own family, destroy your trust in that sex so thoroughly?" By the end, that person could absolutely see the choices that were made, were made based off the incidents that happend as a child/teenager, and NOT out of "nature."

In short, it falls into the same overall bin as sex-workers. You'd be amazed at the vast majority of sex workers that report sexual abuse of one type or another when they were young. It messes up sexual develop something fierce, involves levels of the psyche so deeply that no one can really understand it, and ends up sending people down all types of paths (hence, why rape victims will sometimes look to almost be nymphomaniacs within a few months).

All of that to say, it is simplistic in the extreme to lay the blame on "society" and "religion," when there are so many other factors involved. The biggest problem, IMO, is that there's such a rush to say "it's okay and there's nothing wrong with you," that for those who there actually IS something wrong with, they're being driven further into their problems.

And no, I don't believe the above equals all homosexuality. There are some people for whom the above is true, and others for whom it is not.

Nothing is equal to everyone, the point is gays are not born feeling guilty about being gay that is taught from people in society and religions telling them that there Is something wrong with them. Also there are plenty of straight people who have been molested or raped, there is no proof at all that a rape changes a persons sexual orientation, It might cause a mistrust in others from the opposite sex but it certainly does not create an attraction to your same sex. Even if you wanted to go that route, rape and sex workers are products of society people are not born raped or born a sex worker, people however are born gay.

[Count Steeler]

Nothing is equal to everyone, the point is gays are not born feeling guilty about being gay that is taught from people in society and religions telling them that there Is something wrong with them. Also there are plenty of straight people who have been molested or raped, there is no proof at all that a rape changes a persons sexual orientation, It might cause a mistrust in others from the opposite sex but it certainly does not create an attraction to your same sex. Even if you wanted to go that route, rape and sex workers are products of society people are not born raped or born a sex worker, people however are born gay.

Gulp. The kool-aid has been drunk. You who poo-poo the spiritual world try to explain away our world, solely with the physical. I have remained out of this whole thread for a reason. Many issues today are spiritual ones, not solely physical.

I have said my 2 cents and I will refrain from posting further in this thread.

[GoSlash27]

I have a very clear idea of exactly what I think marriage should be. If you can't understand, or rather don't see meaning in my version of it, that's fine. But Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean someone else's "judgement call" is invalidated. By that token I shouldn't believe in gay rights, since I don't have a "clear understanding" of why people are gay or what "purpose" being gay serves. But I suppose a difference between the two circumstances will be fabricated.

Hit a nerve? :heh:
The only reason I don't have a clear idea of what you think marriage should be is because you haven't expressed it. It was a valid question when you asked me and it's a valid question now, but nobody's gonna put a gun to your head and *force* you to answer it.
But you know... maybe it *is* me, so I'd invite anyone else to review what Seven has posted thus far and tell me what he believes the purpose of marriage is.

[GoSlash27]

Nothing is equal to everyone, the point is gays are not born feeling guilty about being gay that is taught from people in society and religions telling them that there Is something wrong with them. Also there are plenty of straight people who have been molested or raped, there is no proof at all that a rape changes a persons sexual orientation, It might cause a mistrust in others from the opposite sex but it certainly does not create an attraction to your same sex. Even if you wanted to go that route, rape and sex workers are products of society people are not born raped or born a sex worker, people however are born gay.

This isn't actually true. There are plenty of studies that show causation from childhood sexual trauma, although that's certainly not the only way people end up gay. And keep in mind that most women don't have a strong sexual preference either way.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300
http://www.goofyfootpress.com/links/pdfs/Bailey.pdf

[steeldawg]

This isn't actually true. There are plenty of studies that show causation from childhood sexual trauma, although that's certainly not the only way people end up gay. And keep in mind that most women don't have a strong sexual preference either way.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300
http://www.goofyfootpress.com/links/pdfs/Bailey.pdf
Those studies in no way show that sexual orientation was changed to molestation it only shows that more gays report being molested in order to prove something like that we would have to know for sure that they where straight before the occurrence.

[Dwinsgames]

from the Steeldawg school of thinking ...


I will post links , thoughts or whatever I like and pass it on as FACT.

I will glance at and pick apart any link posted or comment made by anyone else that does not go along with my line of thinking and never give it a second thought ....

I will degrade others opinions and beliefs to the point of calling them fairy tales and mock them with Santa Claus references even though I have no proof of what I am saying nor a better explanation that comes along with tangible evidence

I will then be diligent to make sure I am the last one to post in the thread come hell or high water after all whomever gets the last word is clearly the winner of the argument / debate

If I do all these things in every thread I post to I will clearly be the superior poster and resident all knowing one on every subject

if we all would learn from the above we too could be just like steeldawg ....

[GoSlash27]

from the Steeldawg school of thinking ...



if we all would learn from the above we too could be just like steeldawg ....

... And we were doing so well, too...

Could we all *please* try not to make this personal? There's really no call for it and it doesn't help the discussion at all.

[Dwinsgames]

... And we were doing so well, too...

Could we all *please* try not to make this personal? There's really no call for it and it doesn't help the discussion at all.

maybe it is me ?

but it seems like everyone else's opinion that does not match up regardless of the links provided that support the logic or the thousands of years of religious practice and teaching is all adamantly discounted and belittled because it does not coincide with his logic or line of thinking ...

If I am wrong I sincerely apologize but upon review of this thread I do not believe I am wrong... however I may be somewhat biased

[GoSlash27]

Those studies in no way show that sexual orientation was changed to molestation it only shows that more gays report being molested in order to prove something like that we would have to know for sure that they where straight before the occurrence.

If you read the study, you'll see that they did, in fact, self- identify as "straight" prior to the occurrence.

Keeping in mind the attitudes I've show here about the gay community, even *I've* got to tell you that you're under a lot of misperceptions about the reality on the ground. It's not even a case of you being misled, but rather your refusal to accept anything as fact that conflicts with your ideology.
I highly recommend getting acquainted with gay folks and asking *them* about these subjects.

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maybe it is me ?

but it seems like everyone else's opinion that does not match up regardless of the links provided that support the logic or the thousands of years of religious practice and teaching is all adamantly discounted and belittled because it does not coincide with his logic or line of thinking ...

If I am wrong I sincerely apologize but upon review of this thread I do not believe I am wrong... however I may be somewhat biased

I certainly believe that you're not the only one ;)
All I'm asking (and all I can do is ask) is that we all attack the argument rather than the poster. Otherwise we end up with a lot of flaming, noise, bent feelings, and (eventually) a locked thread.

[Seven]

but it seems like everyone else's opinion that does not match up regardless of the links provided that support the logic or the thousands of years of religious practice and teaching is all adamantly discounted and belittled because it does not coincide with his logic or line of thinking ...

Critical thinking is a lost art, Dwins. People believe what they're told and treat their own opinion as infallible fact.

[steeldawg]

If you read the study, you'll see that they did, in fact, self- identify as "straight" prior to the occurrence.

Keeping in mind the attitudes I've show here about the gay community, even *I've* got to tell you that you're under a lot of misperceptions about the reality on the ground. It's not even a case of you being misled, but rather your refusal to accept anything as fact that conflicts with your ideology.
I highly recommend getting acquainted with gay folks and asking *them* about these subjects.

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I certainly believe that you're not the only one ;)
All I'm asking (and all I can do is ask) is that we all attack the argument rather than the poster. Otherwise we end up with a lot of flaming, noise, bent feelings, and (eventually) a locked thread.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201210/when-men-are-raped
http://www.aftersilence.org/male-survivors.php
http://resurrectionafterrape.org/media/MaleSurvivor.pdf

[steeldawg]

This isn't actually true. There are plenty of studies that show causation from childhood sexual trauma, although that's certainly not the only way people end up gay. And keep in mind that most women don't have a strong sexual preference either way.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300
http://www.goofyfootpress.com/links/pdfs/Bailey.pdf

Also slash I read both of your links and maybe im missing where the victims identitfied as straight before an assault and are now gay?

[steeldawg]

Gulp. The kool-aid has been drunk. You who poo-poo the spiritual world try to explain away our world, solely with the physical. I have remained out of this whole thread for a reason. Many issues today are spiritual ones, not solely physical.

I have said my 2 cents and I will refrain from posting further in this thread.

Your world? yes I choose to explain real world issues with real world information, Im not channeling spirit guides or gods , or reading religious text to shape my opinion of the world we live in. If you want to use the spirit world to explain things go right ahead why the hell is it so important to you people that I lend all that hocus pocus any credibility. That's the very reason measures where taken to make sure one persons beleifs and superstitions didn't trump the legal rights of everyone.

[X-Terminator]

Your world? yes I choose to explain real world issues with real world information, Im not channeling spirit guides or gods , or reading religious text to shape my opinion of the world we live in. If you want to use the spirit world to explain things go right ahead why the hell is it so important to you people that I lend all that hocus pocus any credibility. That's the very reason measures where taken to make sure one persons beleifs and superstitions didn't trump the legal rights of everyone.

No, the problem is that you constantly belittle people of faith, and it pisses them off.

That clear enough for you?

[smokin3000gt]

No, the problem is that you constantly belittle people of faith, and it pisses them off.

That clear enough for you?

Good luck getting through that skull of his. He's just going to come back and argue that he doesn't piss people off or only certain people for certain reasons. Then spend the next 10 post after that still arguing about the people he pisses off. Personally I wish he would just piss off and find another message board. It's one thing to have a healthy discussion about different topics but to argue every fucking point about everything is another.

[steeldawg]

No, the problem is that you constantly belittle people of faith, and it pisses them off.

That clear enough for you?

I belittle people!!????? Have you read some of the posts that get aimed at me???? I don't single people out on here for personal attack, I pick apart religions and then I get hit with personal attacks.

[GoSlash27]

steeldawg,

Also slash I read both of your links and maybe im missing where the victims identitfied as straight before an assault and are now gay?
It's right there in the Tomeo study.
Abstract:

In research with 942 nonclinical adult participants, gay men and lesbian women reported a significantly higher rate of childhood molestation than did heterosexual men and women. Forty-six percent of the homosexual men in contrast to 7% of the heterosexual men reported homosexual molestation. Twenty-two percent of lesbian women in contrast to 1% of heterosexual women reported homosexual molestation. This research is apparently the first survey that has reported substantial homosexual molestation of girls. Suggestions for future research were offered.
The questions:

1. Do you regard yourself as predominantly a heterosexual person or predominantly a gay/lesbian person?
2. If predominantly of heterosexual orientation, at what age did you begin to regard yourself as heterosexual?
3. If predominantly of homosexual orientation, at what age did you begin to regard yourself as homosexual?
4. Before you were 16 years old, did you ever have sexual contact with a woman or girl 5 or more years older than yourself and at least 16 years of age? (YES NO)
5. IF YES, at what age did this first occur?
6. What was your relationship to the person with whom this sexual contact occurred?
7. Before you were 16 years old, did you ever have sexual contact with a man or boy 5 or more years older than yourself and at least 16 years of age? (YES NO)
8. IF YES, at what age did this first occur?
9. What was your relationship to the person with whom this sexual contact occurred?
The conclusion:

Sixty-eight percent of the present homosexual male participants and 38% of the present homosexual female participants (68 and 36%, respectively, if including just the homosexual fair participants) did not identify as homosexual until after the molestation. This suggests that if molestation resulted in homosexuality, this phenomenon occurs in a greater proportion of male homosexuals.

But again... it doesn't take scientific studies to understand this stuff. All you have to do is actually *know* gay people. They'll tell you all about what it's really like.
HTHs
-Slashy

[steeldawg]

steeldawg,

It's right there in the Tomeo study.
Abstract:

The questions:

The conclusion:


But again... it doesn't take scientific studies to understand this stuff. All you have to do is actually *know* gay people. They'll tell you all about what it's really like.
HTHs
-Slashy





http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/06/a-major-study-of-child-abuse-and-homosexuality-revisited/

And slash I know many gay people I don't know why you think their lives are full of hardship and abuse.

[GoSlash27]

And slash I know many gay people I don't know why you think their lives are full of hardship and abuse.

1) Yeah, sure ya do. :ranger:
2) I never said their lives are "full of" anything. It's just not the fairytale of sparkles 'n' unicorn rainbows *you* make it out to be.

[steeldawg]

1) Yeah, sure ya do. :ranger:
2) I never said their lives are "full of" anything. It's just not the fairytale of sparkles 'n' unicorn rainbows *you* make it out to be.

I didn't make it out to be anything, If anything I was saying how society and religions makes it hard on gay people, but that doesn't mean that they hate who they are. I will in fact be attending a gay wedding in October and I will be sure that everyone on this board gets pictures.

[GoSlash27]

I didn't make it out to be anything, If anything I was saying how society and religions makes it hard on gay people, but that doesn't mean that they hate who they are. I will in fact be attending a gay wedding in October and I will be sure that everyone on this board gets pictures.

If that was all that you said, nobody would've disagreed. Reviewing your posts from page 3 on.... not at all what you said.

[steeldawg]

If that was all that you said, nobody would've disagreed. Reviewing your posts from page 3 on.... not at all what you said.

Wha?t nothing I said on page 3 even inferred that gay life is perfect.

[GoSlash27]

Yeah... I'm not going to get into an argument with you about the reality that anybody can see just by paging back and looking for themselves.
If we're in agreement that their lives aren't perfect and they have troubles just like all the rest of us, I'll settle for that.

[steeldawg]

Yeah... I'm not going to get into an argument with you about the reality that anybody can see just by paging back and looking for themselves.
If we're in agreement that their lives aren't perfect and they have troubles lust like all the rest of us, I'll settle for that.

I already paged back there is nothing there If anyone else sees a quote from me on that page that says anything to the effect that that gays don't have problems or that their lives are perfect or glitter and rainbows from page 3 please post it because I don't see it. Of course they have troubles just like the rest of us they are human beings.

[Dwinsgames]

No, the problem is that you constantly belittle people of faith, and it pisses them off.

That clear enough for you?


this

[Count Steeler]

If that was all that you said, nobody would've disagreed. Reviewing your posts from page 3 on.... not at all what you said.


I already paged back there is nothing there If anyone else sees a quote from me on that page that says anything to the effect that that gays don't have problems or that their lives are perfect or glitter and rainbows from page 3 please post it because I don't see it. Of course they have troubles just like the rest of us they are human beings.

Slash is saying from page 3 on, which means page 3, 4, 5, 6 etc..

Hope that helps.

[steeldawg]

Slash is saying from page 3 on, which means page 3, 4, 5, 6 etc..

Hope that helps.

Ok post where I said that in the entire thread

[Count Steeler]

If that was all that you said, nobody would've disagreed. Reviewing your posts from page 3 on.... not at all what you said.


Yeah... I'm not going to get into an argument with you about the reality that anybody can see just by paging back and looking for themselves.
If we're in agreement that their lives aren't perfect and they have troubles just like all the rest of us, I'll settle for that.


Ok post where I said that in the entire thread

Up to Slash. Personally, not that interested. Just didn't want to see another page of your denials when you had not understood what Slash had said.

[Dwinsgames]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dKpHtc9F9M

[fansince'76]

"Their whole society is based on a kind of a fagdom."

Gotta love Archie. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Used to love it when he'd bring up his service in "WWII...the big one" during arguments with Meathead as well. :lol:

[GoSlash27]

Up to Slash. Personally, not that interested. Just didn't want to see another page of your denials when you had not understood what Slash had said.

Nope. As I said, I'm not interested in arguing about his previous posts. If anyone has any doubts about what he did or did not say, it's a simple matter to go back and look.

I am still interested in discussing polygamy, tho'....

[steeldawg]

Nope. As I said, I'm not interested in arguing about his previous posts. If anyone has any doubts about what he did or did not say, it's a simple matter to go back and look.

I am still interested in discussing polygamy, tho'....

im not trying to argue it but your saying I said something I didn't say or even infer. I went back and looked I just asked for one example of me talking about how perfect gay life is.

[GoSlash27]

im not trying to argue it but your saying I said something I didn't say or even infer. I went back and looked I just asked for one example of me talking about how perfect gay life is.
Yeah you are trying to argue it, and for the last time I'm not interested. I say you did and you say you didn't, and anyone who cares to know can go back, look, and decide for themselves.

Polygamy, anyone?

[silver & black]

Polygamy, anyone?

Not sure how I feel about relationships in general, be they polygamous, polyamorous or monogamous.

I'm in the process of getting divorced after 27 years of marriage. I'm probably not the guy to give an opinion on any type of relationship.

[steeldawg]

Not sure how I feel about relationships in general, be they polygamous, polyamorous or monogamous.

I'm in the process of getting divorced after 27 years of marriage. I'm probably not the guy to give an opinion on any type of relationship.

why would anyone want to be a polygamist, one wife is bad enough. Could you imagine the alimony after a divorce.

[silver & black]

why would anyone want to be a polygamist, one wife is bad enough. Could you imagine the alimony after a divorce.

I'm in the process of imagining it right now. In a few months, I'll be experiencing it... probably to the point of living in a box under a bridge.

Sorry for the thread derail. :focus:

[steeldawg]

I'm in the process of imagining it right now. In a few months, I'll be experiencing it... probably to the point of living in a box under a bridge.

Sorry for the thread derail. :focus:

Im sorry buddy ive never gone through it but I know many who have, its not really a derail because divorce would be a real interesting dynamic of a polygamist marriage.

[GoSlash27]

I'm in the process of imagining it right now. In a few months, I'll be experiencing it... probably to the point of living in a box under a bridge.

Sorry for the thread derail. :focus:

:hug: I feel ya, Bro'. Divorce is no fun, and usually the folks who make out like fat bandits are the lawyers.

I almost fell into the polyamory trap once myself, so I can relate to folks who might want to do it. But in my case, it would've been the biggest mistake of my life. <-- not that *that* is an argument against legalizing it.

I personally have no issue with other people who want to live that way, but how such arrangements would get regulated legally could turn into a real hairball. Even the paperwork would be a nightmare.

^ Like Steeldawg said; how would divorce work? I have no idea...

[smokin3000gt]

Child support is one thing but alimony is f'n rediculius and a good reason by itself to never get married in modern times. Until divorce court gets with the times there will be a ton of of people like myself who will never get married. My GF of 8 years isnt real excited about it but I dont feel I have a choice.

Sent from my Samsung Doo Hicky using Tapatalk 2.

[7SteelGal43]

Here is the perspective of one conservative Christian lesbian. (that'd be me). Since the original topic is same sex marriage, I'll address that first. Simply put, no. I do not support same sex marriage. Maybe because I am a Christian first and would never want to see the govt forcing the Church to go against it's beliefs. After all, libs love to remind anyone who will listen that there is a separation of Church and state, right ? Don't infringe. Personally, I've never felt denied anything. I mean, I can shack up with whomever I want. I can even have a ceremony to commemorate the union. So what if it isn't in a Church with the Church's blessing ? Let me point out here that I have attended Church all my life and never felt uncomfortable nor been shunned nor been asked to leave. And no, I've never attended a 'gay is ok' church. As for certain civil rights the gay and lesbian community are stating aren't afforded them, same sex civil unions is a viable and perfectly acceptable answer. The same percentage opposed to same sex marriage do support same sex civil unions (give or take few percentage points). Heck, some companies already offer benefits to workers and their partners. 'Partners' pffft...what am I in business with them ? I plan on calling my future soulmate my 'wife'. In the end, I think it's an effort on the part of the gay and lesbian community to feel validated way more than it is about 'civil rights' or the same rights as hetero married couples. I mean, if it WERE about rights, why would they (we) not jump on same sex civil unions and leave the Church out of it ? Again, why infringe if the same outcome can be acheived without doing so ? I'm sure 'in your face' is nowhere in the book 'how to win friends and influence people'.

Born that way or a choice ? I try not to argue this point with such dogma because honestly, I know me. I was 'born this way'. I've known since my earliest memories, my very first crushes. But at the same time, I know a girl who suddenly, in her mid 20s, decided to go (with her husband) to a lesbian bar. She picked up some random chick. Next thing you know, she's divorced and has only been with women since. Yeah. Kinda whack. Knowing this girl like I do, I believe she thrives on 'being shocking'. And though that might, on the surface, prove that homosexuality is a mental disorder, I have never thought of myself as having a mental disorder. In my case, it's a matter of the heart, not the mind. In the example I used of the 20 something, well, she is 'mental', but not just because she now loves women.

And since it's been brought up in many posts - procreation, infidelity, promiscuity, breakups, stds, divorce...I'm not sure those are valid arguments (pro or con) when it comes to same sex unions. Granted, hiv/aids (the 'gay' disease) is the worst of the worst std's without a doubt. But std's have been around for ions in the hetero and homo community. Nearly half of all marriages end in divorce. Hell, my grandmother, a hetero woman, was married 5 times. Some hetero married couples can't have children. Should they not be allowed to 'couple up' because they can't procreate ? I'll be honest, I haven't done a lot of research as far as whether cheating and promiscuity are more prevalent in the hetero or homo community or if stds are more rampant in the hetero or homo community, but let's be honest. If you use any of those as a reason to oppose same sex marriage or unions, then I suppose you'd have to oppose hetero marriage or unions too, since they are by no means exclusive to the homo community.

Now, allow me to end with a little levity. Ever seen a lesbian with a hardon ? :flap:

[zulater]

Here is the perspective of one conservative Christian lesbian. (that'd be me). Since the original topic is same sex marriage, I'll address that first. Simply put, no. I do not support same sex marriage. Maybe because I am a Christian first and would never want to see the govt forcing the Church to go against it's beliefs. After all, libs love to remind anyone who will listen that there is a separation of Church and state, right ? Don't infringe. Personally, I've never felt denied anything. I mean, I can shack up with whomever I want. I can even have a ceremony to commemorate the union. So what if it isn't in a Church with the Church's blessing ? Let me point out here that I have attended Church all my life and never felt uncomfortable nor been shunned nor been asked to leave. And no, I've never attended a 'gay is ok' church. As for certain civil rights the gay and lesbian community are stating aren't afforded them, same sex civil unions is a viable and perfectly acceptable answer. The same percentage opposed to same sex marriage do support same sex civil unions (give or take few percentage points). Heck, some companies already offer benefits to workers and their partners. 'Partners' pffft...what am I in business with them ? I plan on calling my future soulmate my 'wife'. In the end, I think it's an effort on the part of the gay and lesbian community to feel validated way more than it is about 'civil rights' or the same rights as hetero married couples. I mean, if it WERE about rights, why would they (we) not jump on same sex civil unions and leave the Church out of it ? Again, why infringe if the same outcome can be acheived without doing so ? I'm sure 'in your face' is nowhere in the book 'how to win friends and influence people'.

Born that way or a choice ? I try not to argue this point with such dogma because honestly, I know me. I was 'born this way'. I've known since my earliest memories, my very first crushes. But at the same time, I know a girl who suddenly, in her mid 20s, decided to go (with her husband) to a lesbian bar. She picked up some random chick. Next thing you know, she's divorced and has only been with women since. Yeah. Kinda whack. Knowing this girl like I do, I believe she thrives on 'being shocking'. And though that might, on the surface, prove that homosexuality is a mental disorder, I have never thought of myself as having a mental disorder. In my case, it's a matter of the heart, not the mind. In the example I used of the 20 something, well, she is 'mental', but not just because she now loves women.

And since it's been brought up in many posts - procreation, infidelity, promiscuity, breakups, stds, divorce...I'm not sure those are valid arguments (pro or con) when it comes to same sex unions. Granted, hiv/aids (the 'gay' disease) is the worst of the worst std's without a doubt. But std's have been around for ions in the hetero and homo community. Nearly half of all marriages end in divorce. Hell, my grandmother, a hetero woman, was married 5 times. Some hetero married couples can't have children. Should they not be allowed to 'couple up' because they can't procreate ? I'll be honest, I haven't done a lot of research as far as whether cheating and promiscuity are more prevalent in the hetero or homo community or if stds are more rampant in the hetero or homo community, but let's be honest. If you use any of those as a reason to oppose same sex marriage or unions, then I suppose you'd have to oppose hetero marriage or unions too, since they are by no means exclusive to the homo community.

Now, allow me to end with a little levity. Ever seen a lesbian with a hardon ? :flap:

Good posting! :applaudit: Thanks for opening up to us.

[zulater]

Of course now we all await the inevitable post by Steeldawg telling Steelgal how she's all wrong on the lesbian thing. :chuckle:

[smokin3000gt]

Of course now we all await the inevitable post by Steeldawg telling Steelgal how she's all wrong on the lesbian thing. :chuckle:

Yup.

Steeltrollin to argue all of SG's real world experiences in 3... 2... 1...

[GoSlash27]

Good posting! Thanks for opening up to us.
^ What he said.
:countdown <-- Lesbian with a hard- on :D

[Dwinsgames]

Of course now we all await the inevitable post by Steeldawg telling Steelgal how she's all wrong on the lesbian thing. :chuckle:

he won't now just to prove you wrong ....

then again maybe he will to prove me wrong ??? /thinking

[steeldawg]

Of course now we all await the inevitable post by Steeldawg telling Steelgal how she's all wrong on the lesbian thing. :chuckle:

Why most of what she said I agree with the promiscuity disease is just as prevelant in straight relationships. The only thing I disagree with is the idea that churches will be forced to perform marriage ceremonies I don't think legally they can. Also in the example she used of her friend that's not uncommon many homosexuals don't come to terms with their sexuality until later in life but her attraction to women I don't think was a spontaneous occurrence.

[7SteelGal43]

Why most of what she said I agree with the promiscuity disease is just as prevelant in straight relationships. The only thing I disagree with is the idea that churches will be forced to perform marriage ceremonies I don't think legally they can. Also in the example she used of her friend that's not uncommon many homosexuals don't come to terms with their sexuality until later in life but her attraction to women I don't think was a spontaneous occurrence.


Well, I know the difference between somone who's been on a journey of self discovery and a whackadoodle :lol:

"i don't think legally they can".....so why not just grant civil unions and not take the chance ? I mean the govt doesn't have the best track record of not infringing when they said they wouldn't.

[steeldawg]

Well, I know the difference between somone who's been on a journey of self discovery and a whackadoodle :lol:

"i don't think legally they can".....so why not just grant civil unions and not take the chance ? I mean the govt doesn't have the best track record of not infringing when they said they wouldn't.

I don't think they are taking a chance, churches can refuse to marry who ever they want hell in Mississippi a church just refused to marry a black couple, there are many that refuse interracial, gay, and intereligous marriages and they are not subject to lawsuits.

"The bottom line on all of this: Multiple fact-checking news outlets have found absolutely no merit to Schubert's claims. A Seattle Times national investigation "checked with human rights commissions in four of the six states where marriage is legal; the commissions said there was not an increase in discrimination findings or suits involving same sex marriage." A Maine Today Media "Truth Test" also called around and found that "[t]here were no gay-marriage related claims against religious organizations in any of the states."

As far as civil unions go that's fine as long as its civil unions for everyone, I don't think gays fought for the right to marry to settle for civil unions, they want to be recognized as being married just as heterosexuals, I don't see anything wrong with that or why their relationship should be discounted in any way under the law.

[zulater]

he won't now just to prove you wrong ....

then again maybe he will to prove me wrong ??? /thinking

He's an officious prigg, so of course he'll answer and correct her. That's his nature, he can't or wont ever stop himself. I don't even think it's within his control anymore. I'm not sure if we should loathe him, laugh at him or just feel sorry for him.

If Charles Winchester from M*A*S*H* and Cliff Clavin from Cheers were to form a gay union and by some miracle conceive I would imagine the reuslting offspring would very much resemble this. :heh:

[GoSlash27]

Le sigh...

- - - Updated - - -

Getting back on track...

It's really no surprise that many lesbians make a conscious choice to go that way. Most women aren't that far away to begin with.

[steeldawg]

Le sigh...

- - - Updated - - -

Getting back on track...

It's really no surprise that many lesbians make a conscious choice to go that way. Most women aren't that far away to begin with.

I actually had this conversation with my girlfriend, I was saying a lot of women have a natural attraction to each other but she resented the fact that I thought that about women but I think it was just because she thought I was trying to talk her into a threesome.

[Seven]

It's really no surprise that many lesbians make a conscious choice to go that way. Most women aren't that far away to begin with.

I'd be careful about making this generalization.

[GoSlash27]

I'd be careful about making this generalization.

As you're no doubt aware, being careful with generalizations isn't one of my strong suits :wink02:
Besides, it's true...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23563096

[Spike]

I'm confused....does this mean liberals now hate Africans?


Nigerian Parliament Bans “Gay Marriage”

Nigerian lawmakers have approved a bill banning same-sex marriage, setting jail terms of up to 14 years for offenders.

The measure backed by the House of Representatives also makes it illegal to form gay groups or organisations

“Same-sex marriage cannot be allowed on moral and religious grounds. The Muslim religion forbids it. Christianity forbids it and the African traditional religion forbids it,” the bill’s sponsor, Senator Domingo Obende, previously said..

Any public showing of same-sex romantic relationships will also be against the law, and gay couples who marry could face up to 14 years behind bars. Those who help them or serve as witnesses to such a marriage could get up to 10 years’ imprisonment.

http://www.africanglobe.net/africa/nigerian-parliament-bans-gay-marriage/

[fansince'76]

It's really no surprise that many lesbians make a conscious choice to go that way. Most women aren't that far away to begin with.

From a guy's point of view, I can't really say I blame them - to take a quote from Seinfeld, "I find them (men) repugnant and unappealing."

[Count Steeler]

I'm confused....does this mean liberals now hate Africans?


Nigerian Parliament Bans “Gay Marriage”

Nigerian lawmakers have approved a bill banning same-sex marriage, setting jail terms of up to 14 years for offenders.

The measure backed by the House of Representatives also makes it illegal to form gay groups or organisations

“Same-sex marriage cannot be allowed on moral and religious grounds. The Muslim religion forbids it. Christianity forbids it and the African traditional religion forbids it,” the bill’s sponsor, Senator Domingo Obende, previously said..

Any public showing of same-sex romantic relationships will also be against the law, and gay couples who marry could face up to 14 years behind bars. Those who help them or serve as witnesses to such a marriage could get up to 10 years’ imprisonment.

http://www.africanglobe.net/africa/nigerian-parliament-bans-gay-marriage/

I guess the African will cry "Racist" and the liberal will cry "homophobe". And they will live happily ever after.

[steeldawg]

I'm confused....does this mean liberals now hate Africans?


Nigerian Parliament Bans “Gay Marriage”

Nigerian lawmakers have approved a bill banning same-sex marriage, setting jail terms of up to 14 years for offenders.

The measure backed by the House of Representatives also makes it illegal to form gay groups or organisations

“Same-sex marriage cannot be allowed on moral and religious grounds. The Muslim religion forbids it. Christianity forbids it and the African traditional religion forbids it,” the bill’s sponsor, Senator Domingo Obende, previously said..

Any public showing of same-sex romantic relationships will also be against the law, and gay couples who marry could face up to 14 years behind bars. Those who help them or serve as witnesses to such a marriage could get up to 10 years’ imprisonment.

http://www.africanglobe.net/africa/nigerian-parliament-bans-gay-marriage/

Do conservatives support this and do they hold up Africa as a model for human rights? I don't think you have to be a liberal to realize that jail time for being gay is completely ridiculous. If our laws where based off of Christianity, islam, or any other religion I would be on the first plane out of here.

[Count Steeler]

Do conservatives support this and do they hold up Africa as a model for human rights? I don't think you have to be a liberal to realize that jail time for being gay is completely ridiculous. If our laws where based off of Christianity, islam, or any other religion I would be on the first plane out of here.

Well, maybe you should destine yourself for Nigeria so you can show them the right way to live.

[Seven]

Russia, anyone?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/russia-law-banning-gay-propaganda Most of this stuff came to a head last month, but I thought with the direction this conversation was going, it'd be interesting to alert some of you to Russia's stance on gays. Basically, if you are a tourist found to be gay in Russia, you will be detained for 14 days then deported. 75% of Russian's are against gay rights and most of that number think it's a sin or evil, similar to pedophilia.

- - - Updated - - -

Olympics in Sochi next year. This should get good.

[Vis]

Congrats PA! Finally on the right side of history.

[GBMelBlount]

Congrats PA! Finally on the right side of history.

Congrats Vis!

I couldn't be happier for you! :party: