Steelers Film Room - Underrated Steelers: Cortez Allen

[stillers4me]

When defensive players are drafted by the Steelers, they have to be pretty good to see the field, much less start. For corners in the Dick Lebeau system, they often do not start until their third season, if at all. Keenan Lewis didn’t start until his 4th season, barely contributing as the 3rd corner until 2011. It takes a special player to contribute as a cornerback for the Pittsburgh Steelers for at least 3 years, even Ike Taylor, a staple in the Steelers secondary, didn’t make major contributions until his 3rd season.

A little more than 2 years ago, the Steelers drafted Cortez Allen, a 6’1 296 lb corner out of The Citadel. Allen was seen as a project, but the Steelers knew that this “project” could turn into a product with a little coaching. Last summer, Ike Taylor was quoted saying that Cortez Allen could be “way better than me.” Between being in the same defensive backs room, to Allen working out with Ike during the offseason, Ike Taylor would know better than anyone what Allen is capable of.

Does Cortez Allen’s play on the field support Ike Taylor’s claim? I decided to break down Cortez Allen’s film after his first two seasons in the NFL, because as they say “the eye in the sky will never lie.”............

Read more @ http://nicepickcowher.com/2013/05/19/steelers-film-room-underrated-steelers-cortez-allen/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[GBMelBlount]

In 2 games last year, Cortez Allen forced three fumbles, had two interceptions, and one fumble recovery.

Allen had twice as many interceptions Taylor had all of last season with these two interceptions!

In the past, Dick Lebeau’s corners haven’t been interception machines, but I believe Cortez Allen can change that, after I saw him make this play below:

While Ike IS a shutdown corner I am not sure how many years he has left.

Allen is athletic, physical AND creates turnovers which is arguably our biggest problem along with defensive pressure & O line.

As an aside, I do not think Lewis will be missed much.

[tube517]

the Steelers drafted Cortez Allen, a 6’1 296 lb corner

What, is he on Casey Hampton's meal plan??? :chuckle:

[zulater]

While Ike IS a shutdown corner I am not sure how many years he has left.

Allen is athletic, physical AND creates turnovers which is arguably our biggest problem along with defensive pressure & O line.

As an aside, I do not think Lewis will be missed much.

I wish they would have kept Lewis and cut Ike. Nothing against Ike, but in 2014 who's going to be the better player between the two?

I love Cortez though. Wolf raved about him all last summer. Said even back then that he plays the ball better than any corner in Pittsburgh since Wodson.

I also like the way he turns at the hips and runs with receivers without having to grab hold, which is something that Ike is doing more and more with each passing year. Cortez will be the number one corner by midseason. Teams will be scared to throw at him because of the way he plays the ball.

[GBMelBlount]

I wish they would have kept Lewis and cut Ike. Nothing against Ike, but in 2014 who's going to be the better player between the two?

I love Cortez though. Wolf raved about him all last summer. Said even back then that he plays the ball better than any corner in Pittsburgh since Wodson.

I also like the way he turns at the hips and runs with receivers without having to grab hold, which is something that Ike is doing more and more with each passing year. Cortez will be the number one corner by midseason. Teams will be scared to throw at him because of the way he plays the ball.

I completely agree...

Plus with Allen weighing 296 lbs. Lewis may be a little lighter on his feet.:lol:

[Mojouw]

Zu, I see your point. Or at least the logic. But I have a funny feeling that Lewis will not really be heard from again. When is the last time the Steelers straight up let someone leave town with out making any attempt to retain them? Prior to Lewis it hasn't happened in some time. The Steelers do have a fairly good track record of knowing when to let a player go. I realize that the cap situation is/was worse than ever, but the fact that they didn't even make Lewis an offer (despite freeing up some $$) should be an insight into what the internal valuation on Taylor, Lewis, Allen is. Although if Lewis continues to be the player he was in that late season Cowboys game, then the Saints get a heckuva a corner.

To return to the topic at hand, I am excited to see what Allen can do. Also really hoping that Curtis Brown can actually step up and do something.

[zulater]

Zu, I see your point. Or at least the logic. But I have a funny feeling that Lewis will not really be heard from again. When is the last time the Steelers straight up let someone leave town with out making any attempt to retain them? Prior to Lewis it hasn't happened in some time. The Steelers do have a fairly good track record of knowing when to let a player go. I realize that the cap situation is/was worse than ever, but the fact that they didn't even make Lewis an offer (despite freeing up some $$) should be an insight into what the internal valuation on Taylor, Lewis, Allen is. Although if Lewis continues to be the player he was in that late season Cowboys game, then the Saints get a heckuva a corner.

To return to the topic at hand, I am excited to see what Allen can do. Also really hoping that Curtis Brown can actually step up and do something.

I am too, but I'm not expecting much. When Curtis was given a chance last season he really didn't show much. Or rather he showed something, but not anything you want to see. I actually think the guy who can make the unit complete and compete will be Terry Hawthorne. Guys got all the tools to be a good one, and from what I've read his biggest problem is bad technique, and Carnell Lake seems anxious to help him "clean it up".

I can't link it here, but reading comments Lake made in Steelers Digest about Hawthorne you can sense he really sees a diamond in the rough. Maybe this year's Cortez?

[Psycho Ward 86]

Zu, I see your point. Or at least the logic. But I have a funny feeling that Lewis will not really be heard from again. When is the last time the Steelers straight up let someone leave town with out making any attempt to retain them? Prior to Lewis it hasn't happened in some time.The Steelers do have a fairly good track record of knowing when to let a player go. I realize that the cap situation is/was worse than ever, but the fact that they didn't even make Lewis an offer (despite freeing up some $$) should be an insight into what the internal valuation on Taylor, Lewis, Allen is. Although if Lewis continues to be the player he was in that late season Cowboys game, then the Saints get a heckuva a corner.

To return to the topic at hand, I am excited to see what Allen can do. Also really hoping that Curtis Brown can actually step up and do something.

yeah and that time is usually after the player is finishing off their 2nd contract and well over the age of 30. Its time to face the music and realize that the combination of our subpar drafting the past couple of years, the bevy of restructured contracts, suffocating lack of cap space, and retaining veterans far longer than we normally do is knocking the wind out of us a bit.

and no, the lack of attempt into retaining lewis was obvious insight into the fact that it wouldve been impossible to sign him while trying to retain so many other players. The saddest thing to top it off is the fact that lewis came quite cheap. if we managed to get keenan under contract, we wouldnt have sanders here, for example. Brown, Cotchery, Wheaton, and Plexiglas to throw to to open the season? LOL

[Seven]

Zu, I see your point. Or at least the logic. But I have a funny feeling that Lewis will not really be heard from again.

I strongly agree. This situation smells of Jason David to me. No way would the Steelers have ever dropped $26 million on a player who going into his fifth season only had one good year under his belt. A cornerback no less. The team made the right move. Lewis was overpaid. Don't forget, Bryant McFadden and William Gay left via free agency amongst fan outcries that we should have paid them, too. And those guys had put together more than one decent season when they left. And look what happened in those situations. Paying Lewis would have been a poor investment and I'll be very surprised if it doesn't show come fall. I think the Saints could have spend that money much more wisely.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I strongly agree. This situation smells of Jason David to me. No way would the Steelers have ever dropped $26 million on a player who going into his fifth season only had one good year under his belt. A cornerback no less. The team made the right move. Lewis was overpaid. Don't forget, Bryant McFadden and William Gay left via free agency amongst fan outcries that we should have paid them, too. And those guys had put together more than one decent season when they left. And look what happened in those situations. Paying Lewis would have been a poor investment and I'll be very surprised if it doesn't show come fall. I think the Saints could have spend that money much more wisely.

overpaid? you think $5 million a year for a corner who starts for a #1 passing defense is too much? check out the pricetag on the top free agent cornerback the past 5 years. Thats a bargain. If you were skeptical about signing keenan due to so called inexperience even after playing such great ball as a nickel corner and then a starter the past 2 seasons, you must be frighteningly skeptical about mclendon, heyward, cortez allen, david decastro, leveon bell, and jason worilds/jarvis jones stepping in as likely starters this upcoming season.

i dont see how the lewis situation can be talked about without talking about ike taylor. Do you realize he is 33 years old and coming off a leg fracture that caused him to miss 4 games? How much longer do you expect him to play at a high level? He only played 12 games this season, and the first of those 4 games he actually played, he played so horribly this whole board was trying to run him out of town.

I would much rather take a healthy, consistent, 26 year old player who has been on the rapid rise the past 2 seasons and costs $5million a year (much cheaper than the top cornerbacks in free agency have been the past couple of years) over a 33 year old player who is starting to show signs of injury/inconsistency and costs $6-7 million a year.

[zulater]

overpaid? you think $5 million a year for a corner who starts for a #1 passing defense is too much? check out the pricetag on the top free agent cornerback the past 5 years. Thats a bargain. If you were skeptical about signing keenan due to so called inexperience even after playing such great ball as a nickel corner and then a starter the past 2 seasons, you must be frighteningly skeptical about mclendon, heyward, cortez allen, david decastro, leveon bell, and jason worilds/jarvis jones stepping in as likely starters this upcoming season.

i dont see how the lewis situation can be talked about without talking about ike taylor. Do you realize he is 33 years old and coming off a leg fracture that caused him to miss 4 games? How much longer do you expect him to play at a high level? He only played 12 games this season, and the first of those 4 games he actually played, he played so horribly this whole board was trying to run him out of town.

I would much rather take a healthy, consistent, 26 year old player who has been on the rapid rise the past 2 seasons and costs $5million a year (much cheaper than the top cornerbacks in free agency have been the past couple of years) over a 33 year old player who is starting to show signs of injury/inconsistency and costs $6-7 million a year.



Two players of near equal ability and you keep the older and more expensive one? :frusty:

Someone brought up the possibility that maybe Keenan just didn't want to stay a Steeler. That's the only way this makes sense to me. :noidea:



Just hope the kid they drafted works out.

[cold-hard-steel]

If i was on the inside on the decision , i would have to weigh in on Dicks point of view . He does after all know what is going on with his defense . Or should i say defence ?

[Psycho Ward 86]

If i was on the inside on the decision , i would have to weigh in on Dicks point of view . He does after all know what is going on with his defense . Or should i say defence ?

Dick is not the ultimate conjuror of football business decisions

[Seven]

I would much rather take a healthy, consistent, 26 year old player who has been on the rapid rise the past 2 seasons and costs $5million a year (much cheaper than the top cornerbacks in free agency have been the past couple of years) over a 33 year old player who is starting to show signs of injury/inconsistency and costs $6-7 million a year.

Take Ike out of the equation. Keenan Lewis is 26 years old and has had one worthwhile season in this league. Is that worth $26 million over five years? For a guy who wanted to leave, can't play any position but outside corner, and has been anything but consistent with the exception of a handful of games? No. He was overpaid.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Take Ike out of the equation. Keenan Lewis is 26 years old and has had one worthwhile season in this league. Is that worth $26 million over five years? For a guy who wanted to leave, can't play any position but outside corner, and has been anything but consistent with the exception of a handful of games? No. He was overpaid.

He's had 2 worthwhile seasons. One full season as our nickel and one full season as a starter. Thats definitely worth $5million a year (i would have cut ike if it meant keeping keenan, i probably didnt clarify that). I dont think you realize how expensive of commodities starting cornerbacks have been in free agency the past 5 years. As said before, clearly he proved he can play in the slot as our nickel corner 2 seasons ago. What games did you watch where he was allegedly inconsistent? This is a dull discussion when you arent even trying to refute most of my points and questions of speculation.

[Seven]

He's had 2 worthwhile seasons. One full season as our nickel and one full season as a starter. Thats definitely worth $5million a year (i would have cut ike if it meant keeping keenan, i probably didnt clarify that). I dont think you realize how expensive of commodities starting cornerbacks have been in free agency the past 5 years. As said before, clearly he proved he can play in the slot as our nickel corner 2 seasons ago. What games did you watch where he was allegedly inconsistent? This is a dull discussion when you arent even trying to refute most of my points and questions of speculation.

One year as an atrocious nickel and one year as a starter who took half a dozen games to get his sea legs. Great. Give him $26 mill.

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Not to mention the coaching staff had to hand the job to him on a silver platter in his fourth year before he made a positive impact. He wanted to leave, sucked at nickel and took four years to get on the field. And refute what points? You haven't made a point worth a damn.

[Seven]

clearly he proved he can play in the slot as our nickel corner 2 seasons ago.

Try watching a game or two this season. Maybe then you'll be able to make "points" that aren't totally nonsense such as this one. Go to NFL.com and watch a couple of Lewis's games at nickel. It's comical and was an issue that entire season. I have no patience for reading unsubstantiated opinions from someone who thinks giving a cornerback who couldn't get on the field until a job was handed to him $26 million is a good idea. Then turns around and claims a 1,000 yard wide receiver who had a large impact in his second season is overpaid. You're just as inconsistent as Lewis. No time or patience for it.

[Mojouw]

The contract numbers from the last 5 years are totally not appropriate comparisons for Lewis's contract. Most of those large deals were for corners during the last CBA when stupid money was getting thrown around everywhere - guards were getting $6 million per! Now that there is a new CBA which depresses rookie contracts, flattens the cap, etc, etc ,etc; the money was/is simply not there. The Saints over paid. Look at this list of names and contract values (from Rotoworld.com):

Aqib Talib (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/4640/Aqib-Talib) (Signed one-year, $5M deal with NE)
Brent Grimes (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/4562/Brent-Grimes) (Signed one-year, $5.5M deal with MIA)
Sean Smith (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/5184/Sean-Smith) (Signed three-year, $16.5M deal with KC)
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/4715/Dominique-Rodgers-Cromartie) (Signed one-year, $5M deal with DEN)
Chris Houston (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/4200/Chris-Houston) (Signed five-year, $25M deal with DET)
Derek Cox (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/5321/Derek-Cox) (Signed four-year, $20M deal with SD)
Keenan Lewis (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/5336/Keenan-Lewis) (Signed five-year, $26M deal with NO)
Nnamdi Asomugha (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/779/nnamdi-asomugha) (Signed one-year, $1.35M deal with SF)
Antoine Winfield (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1165/antoine-winfield) (Signed one-year, $3M deal with SEA)
Cary Williams (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4967/cary-williams) (Signed three-year, $17M deal with PHI)
E.J. Biggers (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/5427/E.J.-Biggers) (Signed one-year, $1.5M deal with WSH)
Mike Jenkins (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/4673/Mike-Jenkins) (Signed one-year, $1.5M deal with OAK)
Bradley Fletcher (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/5316/Bradley-Fletcher) (Signed two-year, $5.25M deal with PHI)
Dunta Robinson (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/2774/dunta-robinson) (Signed three-year, $15M deal with KC)

Some of the names on the list Lewis is better than, some he is most definitely not. When you could have had Sean Smith, Talib, DRC, Grimes, or even Biggers over Lewis for the same dollars; then Lewis is overpaid.

Plus, it works out that Smith's deal is worth more than anyone else's and it doesn't even put him in the top 12 of CB salaries. So the argument that $5 million per year is a bargain because look at the huge contracts corners have gotten in the past is ridiculous. Corners are not getting that money now. The market has reset and around $5 million is the top end for the position. Is Lewis really worth paying like a true #1 corner? I guess we will see. Myself, the Steelers and others feel that he was not. Particularly with a guy in house pushing to start who may be even better in Cortez Allen. Allen is impacting in his second year and may break out in his third -- way better than waiting to your fifth to have a measurable impact.

Finally, I am really tired of this old song and dance that the Steelers give out too many contracts to old vets and if they were replaced with younger players, then they would never be in trouble with the cap and we wouldn't lose any players to free agency. Several points are necessary to refute that and I don't want to write a book so here goes a quick list:

1. 3 Super Bowl appearances in 4 years and I don't know how many deep play-offs runs indicates a talented roster.
2. Having that much success increases the price of the talent on your roster - because the players are performing well and the league wants to copy
3. Keeping the "window" open means riding some vets for as long as you can
4. The Steelers have a value for each position. Once a player wants above that #, they let them walk. Wallace is the most recent example. There are many others.
5. The Steelers draft track record is on par or well above any other team in the league. Arguments in the other direction have been difficult to make. I struggle to understand why this argument constantly is brought up when all the data and information presented right here on this board refutes it totally. By and large this team drafts very well.
6. The Steelers (and to be fair other teams as well) got caught by the new CBA. Many of the contracts, extensions, and restructures, that are hurting them right now, were signed when the cap was supposed to be increasing each year. Not staying flat. If the cap was around the $135 or $140 million dollars that it was originally projected to be for this year, then the Steelers would have cap room and no one would be worrying.

I could go on. We haven't even touched on the field issues and player performance(s). But I think that some continue to post here the same tired old arguments and attack others directly and personally. If you are going to do that, then make sure you have some facts straight. If not you simply sound like some tired old caller on sports radio who likes to hear themselves talk (over and over again).

And, yes. I know that is quite the statement coming from a guy who likes to write long-winded and ranty message board posts. What can I say, I have a thing for self-delusion and hypocrisy.

[Dwinsgames]

I was on record last year coming out of Latrobe that Cortez Allen should have been the starter opposite Ike , nothing he has done since has changed my mind

[Psycho Ward 86]

Try watching a game or two this season. Maybe then you'll be able to make "points" that aren't totally nonsense such as this one. Go to NFL.com and watch a couple of Lewis's games at nickel. It's comical and was an issue that entire season. I have no patience for reading unsubstantiated opinions from someone who thinks giving a cornerback who couldn't get on the field until a job was handed to him $26 million is a good idea. Then turns around and claims a 1,000 yard wide receiver who had a large impact in his second season is overpaid. You're just as inconsistent as Lewis. No time or patience for it.

lol nonsense, you mean like how you think you can evaluate a player based on clips on NFL.com? You just dont have the patience to debate any legitimate points in current or previous posts, circumventing them instead. Never said antonio brown is overpaid once. Perhaps you should bother recording games, saving them, and watching them instead of watching 2 minute highlight reels on nfl.com and espn to form opinions :)

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The contract numbers from the last 5 years are totally not appropriate comparisons for Lewis's contract. Most of those large deals were for corners during the last CBA when stupid money was getting thrown around everywhere - guards were getting $6 million per! Now that there is a new CBA which depresses rookie contracts, flattens the cap, etc, etc ,etc; the money was/is simply not there. The Saints over paid. Look at this list of names and contract values (from Rotoworld.com):

Aqib Talib (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/4640/Aqib-Talib) (Signed one-year, $5M deal with NE)
Brent Grimes (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/4562/Brent-Grimes) (Signed one-year, $5.5M deal with MIA)
Sean Smith (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/5184/Sean-Smith) (Signed three-year, $16.5M deal with KC)
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/4715/Dominique-Rodgers-Cromartie) (Signed one-year, $5M deal with DEN)
Chris Houston (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/4200/Chris-Houston) (Signed five-year, $25M deal with DET)
Derek Cox (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/5321/Derek-Cox) (Signed four-year, $20M deal with SD)
Keenan Lewis (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/5336/Keenan-Lewis) (Signed five-year, $26M deal with NO)
Nnamdi Asomugha (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/779/nnamdi-asomugha) (Signed one-year, $1.35M deal with SF)
Antoine Winfield (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1165/antoine-winfield) (Signed one-year, $3M deal with SEA)
Cary Williams (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4967/cary-williams) (Signed three-year, $17M deal with PHI)
E.J. Biggers (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/5427/E.J.-Biggers) (Signed one-year, $1.5M deal with WSH)
Mike Jenkins (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/4673/Mike-Jenkins) (Signed one-year, $1.5M deal with OAK)
Bradley Fletcher (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/5316/Bradley-Fletcher) (Signed two-year, $5.25M deal with PHI)
Dunta Robinson (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/2774/dunta-robinson) (Signed three-year, $15M deal with KC)

Some of the names on the list Lewis is better than, some he is most definitely not. When you could have had Sean Smith, Talib, DRC, Grimes, or even Biggers over Lewis for the same dollars; then Lewis is overpaid.

Plus, it works out that Smith's deal is worth more than anyone else's and it doesn't even put him in the top 12 of CB salaries. So the argument that $5 million per year is a bargain because look at the huge contracts corners have gotten in the past is ridiculous. Corners are not getting that money now. The market has reset and around $5 million is the top end for the position. Is Lewis really worth paying like a true #1 corner? I guess we will see. Myself, the Steelers and others feel that he was not. Particularly with a guy in house pushing to start who may be even better in Cortez Allen. Allen is impacting in his second year and may break out in his third -- way better than waiting to your fifth to have a measurable impact.

Finally, I am really tired of this old song and dance that the Steelers give out too many contracts to old vets and if they were replaced with younger players, then they would never be in trouble with the cap and we wouldn't lose any players to free agency. Several points are necessary to refute that and I don't want to write a book so here goes a quick list:

1. 3 Super Bowl appearances in 4 years and I don't know how many deep play-offs runs indicates a talented roster.
2. Having that much success increases the price of the talent on your roster - because the players are performing well and the league wants to copy
3. Keeping the "window" open means riding some vets for as long as you can
4. The Steelers have a value for each position. Once a player wants above that #, they let them walk. Wallace is the most recent example. There are many others.
5. The Steelers draft track record is on par or well above any other team in the league. Arguments in the other direction have been difficult to make. I struggle to understand why this argument constantly is brought up when all the data and information presented right here on this board refutes it totally. By and large this team drafts very well.
6. The Steelers (and to be fair other teams as well) got caught by the new CBA. Many of the contracts, extensions, and restructures, that are hurting them right now, were signed when the cap was supposed to be increasing each year. Not staying flat. If the cap was around the $135 or $140 million dollars that it was originally projected to be for this year, then the Steelers would have cap room and no one would be worrying.

I could go on. We haven't even touched on the field issues and player performance(s). But I think that some continue to post here the same tired old arguments and attack others directly and personally. If you are going to do that, then make sure you have some facts straight. If not you simply sound like some tired old caller on sports radio who likes to hear themselves talk (over and over again).

And, yes. I know that is quite the statement coming from a guy who likes to write long-winded and ranty message board posts. What can I say, I have a thing for self-delusion and hypocrisy.

good points. but it goes so much farther than just money with why some of us wanted to keep lewis (or at least keep lewis in favor of ike). age, inconsistency, health, and upside all play large factors as well

[cold-hard-steel]

Dick is not the ultimate conjuror of football business decisions

......but i am almost certain he had at least one " what do you think about this " while the decision was being tossed around . Never said he was involved in the business aspect , but in a way , i would lay some dough on it that he influenced somewhat what went down .

[Mojouw]

good points. but it goes so much farther than just money with why some of us wanted to keep lewis (or at least keep lewis in favor of ike). age, inconsistency, health, and upside all play large factors as well

Okay so take the money issue off the table. I was under the assumption that was one of your main points. Age, well there is no debating that Taylor is 33 and Lewis is 27 (they both have May birthdays so this info should be up to date). So Lewis has 6 years in his favor.

In terms of injury, Taylor missed four games this year, but has typically been fairly healthy over the course of his career. Lewis likely would have missed more games this season to injury if the team wasn't down to pulling guys off the street to start at CB. Likely that a 33 year old player has a higher chance of injury than a 27 year old. Except in this case, Taylor is a workout fiend. Lewis could blow his knee out tomorrow. I call it a push.

That leaves the question of upside. Well with Taylor, he has proven that when he is healthy he can still be a legitimate #1 corner on the outside. He is excellent in run support. He drops tons of interceptions. Lewis has proven that he can cover 1 on 1 on the outside. It is not clear if he can consistently cover the other team's #1 guy. For a handful of games last season it looked like he could. Lewis also drops tons of interceptions.

So that leaves us with basically the following conclusions:
1. Taylor is an older player with a proven track record of success against #1 WR's. I swear if someone brings up Demaryius Thomas. I'm gonna punch my monitor. That was bad scheme (overplaying the Tebow run threat) and the lack of safety depth (Ryan Clark doesn't play in Denver and Polamalu was hurting and Mundy is terrible). Watch almost every other game over the past handful of seasons.
2. Lewis played well in about 6-7 games. In 4 years.
3. There is a cheaper, even younger, and potentially BETTER player on the roster than Lewis. In 45 games (17 starts) Lewis has ZERO interceptions. None. In 30 games (3 starts) Allen has 2 INTs. Taylor has only 14 in an 119 career starts. So with one corner that can't catch on the roster, it may not be a great idea to pony up a bucket full of money for another.

So where is the argument for cutting Taylor? The logic there is to cut a player with a proven track record who, prior to injury in 2012, was posting identical stats to his previously well regarded seasons (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaylIk20.htm). So despite no evidence (none) of a decline in performance, cut Taylor and hand the starting job to Lewis. This allows a younger player to become the #1 CB. That is potentially a positive. However, your "best" starting CB then is given a large salary and a high profile defensive position because of 1/2 season of good, but not great games? I mean if this was Madden franchise mode - sure that is the right move. But in the actual NFL...

Look. I feel like I'm painting myself into an "apologize for the Steelers FO" corner here. I don't really want to. If they had won a third SB with this group (and they were only a few plays away from doing that) then I think no one would mind the fact that the team was paying the piper a bit. As I previously stated, they gambled on the cap, the CBA, and some salary structures. It bit them squarely on the ass. That being said, giving Lewis the top end of the CB market is not a good idea from an objective view point. New Orleans had to do it. Their pass defense was historically bad. The Steelers, for many reasons, were not in a position where retaining Lewis (at least in theory) was a high priority. So why add to the financial mess by giving him a big $ deal?

This team will miss Wallace and Harrison way more than they miss Lewis.

[Dwinsgames]

Okay so take the money issue off the table. I was under the assumption that was one of your main points. Age, well there is no debating that Taylor is 33 and Lewis is 27 (they both have May birthdays so this info should be up to date). So Lewis has 4 years in his favor.

In terms of injury, Taylor missed four games this year, but has typically been fairly healthy over the course of his career. Lewis likely would have missed more games this season to injury if the team wasn't down to pulling guys off the street to start at CB. Likely that a 33 year old player has a higher chance of injury than a 27 year old. Except in this case, Taylor is a workout fiend. Lewis could blow his knee out tomorrow. I call it a push.

That leaves the question of upside. Well with Taylor, he has proven that when he is healthy he can still be a legitimate #1 corner on the outside. He is excellent in run support. He drops tons of interceptions. Lewis has proven that he can cover 1 on 1 on the outside. It is not clear if he can consistently cover the other team's #1 guy. For a handful of games last season it looked like he could. Lewis also drops tons of interceptions.

So that leaves us with basically the following conclusions:
1. Taylor is an older player with a proven track record of success against #1 WR's. I swear if someone brings up Demaryius Thomas. I'm gonna punch my monitor. That was bad scheme (overplaying the Tebow run threat) and the lack of safety depth (Ryan Clark doesn't play in Denver and Polamalu was hurting and Mundy is terrible). Watch almost every other game over the past handful of seasons.
2. Lewis played well in about 6-7 games. In 4 years.
3. There is a cheaper, even younger, and potentially BETTER player on the roster than Lewis. In 45 games (17 starts) Lewis has ZERO interceptions. None. In 30 games (3 starts) Allen has 2 INTs. Taylor has only 14 in an 119 career starts. So with one corner that can't catch on the roster, it may not be a great idea to pony up a bucket full of money for another.

So where is the argument for cutting Taylor? The logic there is to cut a player with a proven track record who, prior to injury in 2012, was posting identical stats to his previously well regarded seasons (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaylIk20.htm). So despite no evidence (none) of a decline in performance, cut Taylor and hand the starting job to Lewis. This allows a younger player to become the #1 CB. That is potentially a positive. However, your "best" starting CB then is given a large salary and a high profile defensive position because of 1/2 season of good, but not great games? I mean if this was Madden franchise mode - sure that is the right move. But in the actual NFL...

Look. I feel like I'm painting myself into an "apologize for the Steelers FO" corner here. I don't really want to. If they had won a third SB with this group (and they were only a few plays away from doing that) then I think no one would mind the fact that the team was paying the piper a bit. As I previously stated, they gambled on the cap, the CBA, and some salary structures. It bit them squarely on the ass. That being said, giving Lewis the top end of the CB market is not a good idea from an objective view point. New Orleans had to do it. Their pass defense was historically bad. The Steelers, for many reasons, were not in a position where retaining Lewis (at least in theory) was a high priority. So why add to the financial mess by giving him a big $ deal?

This team will miss Wallace and Harrison way more than they miss Lewis.

this ( good post ) ...with the exception the the Mike Wallace part , because I do not think we miss him one bit if 2012 was the measuring stick moving forward ....

[Psycho Ward 86]

Okay so take the money issue off the table. I was under the assumption that was one of your main points. Age, well there is no debating that Taylor is 33 and Lewis is 27 (they both have May birthdays so this info should be up to date). So Lewis has 6 years in his favor.

In terms of injury, Taylor missed four games this year, but has typically been fairly healthy over the course of his career. Lewis likely would have missed more games this season to injury if the team wasn't down to pulling guys off the street to start at CB. Likely that a 33 year old player has a higher chance of injury than a 27 year old. Except in this case, Taylor is a workout fiend. Lewis could blow his knee out tomorrow. I call it a push.

That leaves the question of upside. Well with Taylor, he has proven that when he is healthy he can still be a legitimate #1 corner on the outside. He is excellent in run support. He drops tons of interceptions. Lewis has proven that he can cover 1 on 1 on the outside. It is not clear if he can consistently cover the other team's #1 guy. For a handful of games last season it looked like he could. Lewis also drops tons of interceptions.

So that leaves us with basically the following conclusions:
1. Taylor is an older player with a proven track record of success against #1 WR's. I swear if someone brings up Demaryius Thomas. I'm gonna punch my monitor. That was bad scheme (overplaying the Tebow run threat) and the lack of safety depth (Ryan Clark doesn't play in Denver and Polamalu was hurting and Mundy is terrible). Watch almost every other game over the past handful of seasons.
2. Lewis played well in about 6-7 games. In 4 years.
3. There is a cheaper, even younger, and potentially BETTER player on the roster than Lewis. In 45 games (17 starts) Lewis has ZERO interceptions. None. In 30 games (3 starts) Allen has 2 INTs. Taylor has only 14 in an 119 career starts. So with one corner that can't catch on the roster, it may not be a great idea to pony up a bucket full of money for another.

So where is the argument for cutting Taylor? The logic there is to cut a player with a proven track record who, prior to injury in 2012, was posting identical stats to his previously well regarded seasons (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaylIk20.htm). So despite no evidence (none) of a decline in performance, cut Taylor and hand the starting job to Lewis. This allows a younger player to become the #1 CB. That is potentially a positive. However, your "best" starting CB then is given a large salary and a high profile defensive position because of 1/2 season of good, but not great games? I mean if this was Madden franchise mode - sure that is the right move. But in the actual NFL...

Look. I feel like I'm painting myself into an "apologize for the Steelers FO" corner here. I don't really want to. If they had won a third SB with this group (and they were only a few plays away from doing that) then I think no one would mind the fact that the team was paying the piper a bit. As I previously stated, they gambled on the cap, the CBA, and some salary structures. It bit them squarely on the ass. That being said, giving Lewis the top end of the CB market is not a good idea from an objective view point. New Orleans had to do it. Their pass defense was historically bad. The Steelers, for many reasons, were not in a position where retaining Lewis (at least in theory) was a high priority. So why add to the financial mess by giving him a big $ deal?

This team will miss Wallace and Harrison way more than they miss Lewis.

money is one of my main points, but there are so many other reasons. I dont understand your point about Lewis likely missing games if we were pulling cornerbacks off the street. We know neither ike nor lewis' work habits like the back of our hand. One of the reasons we hear about ike's work habits so much is because he trains with a marquee-name trainer who has also trained CJ2K and Deion Sanders. Pouncey is perhaps our best young player and we get constant rave articles about his training regimen. Not his fault.

only played well for a handful of games as well. Its damn near impossible to refute that he was god awful for the 1st 4 games of the season that a lot of people on this board wanted his head. He only played 8 games this season aside from that. Not good. Ike posting almost identical stats to his prior seasons doesnt mean anything when the stats you're bringing up are just tackles, interceptions, and passes defensed. Accurate statistics for judging cornerback would be more along the lines of number of targets, completions allowed per target, etc. Theres plenty of evidence of ike declining. Look at the 1st couple of games. Is that supposed to be a blip on the radar? Just Ike not being in "midseason mode?" Thats a couple of games, not a couple plays off. Thats a big deal. You think keenan lewis played half a season well, but ike practically did just the same, playing in 12 games and playing horribly in the 1st couple of games against the broncos, raiders, titans, etc. And he did so at a far older age, a bigger contract, and a season marred by injury. I think our cornerbacks are fine for the next season if healthy, i just dont feel confident about them in the long term, or if even a single corner goes down. Im far more concerned about the safeties, i just think theres more to talk about with the cornerbacks.

(INB4 lewis has a bad season and people disregard that he plays for a shitty front 7 and has no safeties to help him)

i guess its going to take many missed playoffs/early play exits before we take losing big players seriously. Perhaps a guy like Maurkice Pouncey. Hopefully it doesnt come to that.

[Mojouw]

money is one of my main points, but there are so many other reasons. I dont understand your point about Lewis likely missing games if we were pulling cornerbacks off the street. We know neither ike nor lewis' work habits like the back of our hand. One of the reasons we hear about ike's work habits so much is because he trains with a marquee-name trainer who has also trained CJ2K and Deion Sanders. Pouncey is perhaps our best young player and we get constant rave articles about his training regimen. Not his fault.

only played well for a handful of games as well. Its damn near impossible to refute that he was god awful for the 1st 4 games of the season that a lot of people on this board wanted his head. He only played 8 games this season aside from that. Not good. Ike posting almost identical stats to his prior seasons doesnt mean anything when the stats you're bringing up are just tackles, interceptions, and passes defensed. Accurate statistics for judging cornerback would be more along the lines of number of targets, completions allowed per target, etc. Theres plenty of evidence of ike declining. Look at the 1st couple of games. Is that supposed to be a blip on the radar? Just Ike not being in "midseason mode?" Thats a couple of games, not a couple plays off. Thats a big deal. You think keenan lewis played half a season well, but ike practically did just the same, playing in 12 games and playing horribly in the 1st couple of games against the broncos, raiders, titans, etc. And he did so at a far older age, a bigger contract, and a season marred by injury. I think our cornerbacks are fine for the next season if healthy, i just dont feel confident about them in the long term, or if even a single corner goes down. Im far more concerned about the safeties, i just think theres more to talk about with the cornerbacks.

(INB4 lewis has a bad season and people disregard that he plays for a shitty front 7 and has no safeties to help him)

i guess its going to take many missed playoffs/early play exits before we take losing big players seriously. Perhaps a guy like Maurkice Pouncey. Hopefully it doesnt come to that.


I think late in the year Lewis played hurt. Definitely would have come out of the Cowboy's game. My point was he couldn't because there was literally no one else to put in the game. So I don't think that health is really a concern for Taylor, in that there is no record of Lewis being far healthier than Taylor.

As for the stats, here are the "advanced" stats for 2009-2011 -- http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/17029/ike-taylor. If the "raw" stats are similar for 2012; then one could reasonably project that the advanced stop rate and success % are similar for 2012. Taylor did have a bad opening 1/4 of the season. Lewis had a bad opening 1/2 of the season. The front 7 and lack of safety help was in place for both Lewis and Taylor. And it partially explains the poor performance both had. I also seem to remember that after the early portion of the season, Taylor, Lewis, and possibly Allen approached Lake, Lebeau, etc and asked to play less zone and more press-man concepts in coverage. This could also be the reason for an uptick in performance. Perhaps the early portion of 2012 saw the Steelers in more soft zone schemes to compensate for the lack of Harrison, Woodley, Polamalu, etc. What do I know.

My only point is that there is very scanty objective evidence to justify paying Keenan Lewis $5 million or more per year. Taking what evidence there is and looking at it subjectively (in the specific context of the Steelers roster structure and player development projections) there is even less. Cutting a veteran player without a drastic drop-off in performance or health would be difficult to team morale/leadership (I think the team knew they were losing Hampton, Starks, and likely Harrison). Lewis has demonstrated little on the field (except for one half of a contract year) to justify giving him the top end of the reset CB market ($5 million per is no longer a bargain).

The issue of Lewis, seems to be wrapped up/related to your larger point of losing "big" players. So in recent memory we have Wallace, Harrison, and Lewis. Wallace is one of, if not the best, deep threat in the game. He has the ability to post ridiculous receiving #'s. His loss could be felt for some time. Or not at all. It all depends on Brown, Sanders, and Wheaton. If Ben throws for 4,000 yards and 20+ TD's; then the dumptruck of money the Dolphins gave Wallace is something the Steelers shouldn't have matched. I don't really want to get too far into that. My position is that Wallace's departure will be felt, but he is (likely) not worth a dumptruck full of money and cap space (remember it is easy to pay $$$ to FA's when your starting QB is on a cheap rookie deal...those darn franchise QB's are pricey!). Harrison likely would have stayed with a better agent, but at worst he is like losing Porter. I figure (I hate to say this) Harrison has 1.5-2 good seasons left in him and that'll about do it. My position on Lewis is clear. So I ask, what would you realistically like to see being done differently? If you wanted to keep Wallace, who do you let go? Same question for Lewis. Also, who are all these other "big" players that the team is hemorrhaging?

In terms of playoff losses/missed appearances. I have this in response:

2010 - had a chance to win a SB late in the fourth quarter. undone by injuries to the offensive line and WR corps. Also Green Bay was pretty good that year.
2011- early playoff exit due to the QB (the engine of the entire offense) being almost totally hobbled
2012 - missed playoffs due to a ridiculous amount of injuries across the offensive line, the defensive front 7, and again -- the QB.

I don't see the massive lack of talent that your postings seem to imply are the reasons behind the team's "lack" of success.

Again what do I really know? I'm just one guy bashing away at my keyboard.