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Pristas
03-22-2013, 08:36 AM
This is a great read and really well articulated. For years we have sung praises to the great Kevin Colbert, but this article puts him in a new light, perhaps rightfully so. And the conclusion of which could be a bit scary when you consider the typical fan base will ask for Tomlin's head if things don't go as planned. Cliff notes: Thanks to Kevin Colbert, your Steelers are now entering into another decade of mediocrity... hello 1980's again. Be sure to visit the link and read the whole article (LONG)

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Is Kevin Colbert Lost Without Bill Cowher Holding His Hand?

I ask this question now, because I couldn't ask it years ago since time was needed and results needed to be seen. Six seasons have passed since Bill Cowher (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum) retired, there's now been enough time and evidence to take a look at the job that Kevin Colbert (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/7-Steelers-Talk) has done and really evaluate him and draw some conclusions.

The biggest conclusion I've come to is that Kevin Colbert (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/7-Steelers-Talk) isn't just overrated but his job security has been the byproduct of being hired as Bill Cowher (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum)'s "yes-man" and some interference by Dan Rooney.

Old vs. Youth Preference

This Offseason has literally drove me mad as a Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum) fan. This was the Offseason that the Steelers (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum) had a chance to really get younger. They needed to. Kevin Colbert (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/7-Steelers-Talk)even said "Again, if we don’t change 8-8, and we don’t change the roster that produced 8-8, we’d be silly to expect a better result if we have the same group of guys.” They were over the cap by double digits heading into the Offseason and had a large number of Vet players making more money than their production is going to be worth now and tomorrow. It was a chance for Kevin Colbert (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/7-Steelers-Talk) to step in, make difficult and unpopular decisions for the future of this Franchise, without losing much in the present.

220px-Keenan_Lewis.JPG (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4875&d=1363838842)The vibe I've gotten around Twitter, Facebook, here in The Steelers (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum) Forum is that the Steelers (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum) aren't good enough to compete in 2013. Perhaps theSteelers (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum) are good enough to make the playoffs and win the Division because the AFC North is weak (especially after the Raven's fire sale), however the belief is that they aren't good enough to make noise in the Playoffs. That's fine, arguments that are debatable but not at all unrealistic. If this is the general belief and a strong consideration, then start stripping the team of veteran players who have viable replacement options now. I've already written a Blog Post about the Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum) needing to cut Ike Taylor (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaylIk20.htm) and resign, Keenan Lewis which obviously didn't happen. Cortez Allen (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleCo00.htm) and Keenan Lewis (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LewiKe96.htm) were a more than adequate CB tandem heading into the future, but the Steelers (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum) chose Age and expense in Ike Taylor (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaylIk20.htm) over youth and lower cost in Keenan Lewis. I'm an advocate for cutting Brett Kiesel and going with the younger and cheaper Cam Heyward (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HeywCa01.htm). I'm ecstatic that James Harrison (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrJa23.htm)stuck his nose up at the Steelers (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum) request to restructure his contract because I wanted him cut to begin with. Not that I believe Jason Worilds (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WoriJa99.htm) is any good but the drop off from 2012James Harrison (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrJa23.htm) to Jason Worilds (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WoriJa99.htm) probably won't be all that noticeable. The Steelers (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum) would be saving a lot of money in the process. Happily, Casey Hampton is finally done as a Steeler.

The Steelers (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum) need to get younger. They need to get cheaper. When you construct a team, you do it for today and tomorrow. The Steelers (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum) aren't in a desperate "Win-Now" scenario where they need to retain their Veterans for that last gasp before they dismantle the team. Sort of like the Denver Broncos are with Peyton Manning. You can get younger, and a lose a little bit of Vet talent and still be Super Bowl contenders as long as you have a franchise QB like Ben Roethlisberger (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm). Ask the New England Patriots who've seen old guys go left and right over the past 6 years, their Defense take a hit, their Wide Receiving corps weakened, their Running Back situation an annual revolving door, yet they are Super Bowl contenders every season. They just offered 31 year old Wes Welker (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WelkWe00.htm)who has been one of the top Wide Receivers in the NFL for the last 5 years an insulting low balled $5 million per year contract. That was a contract offer to tell their fans "they tried" while their intent the entire time was to sign the younger 26 year old Danny Amendola (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AmenDa00.htm) for a tad over $6 million per year on a contract that runs out at the age of 31. It keeps the Patriots, younger, competitive and cost effective. Things you're not seeing the Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/6-The-Steelers-Forum) do.

http://www.pghsportsforum.com/forum/showthread.php/15531-Is-Kevin-Colbert-Lost-Without-Bill-Cowher-Holding-His-Hand?p=285452#post285452

crcsnail
03-22-2013, 09:06 AM
that was a very good read . hit the nail on the head. thx for posting link .

Dwinsgames
03-22-2013, 09:24 AM
I have been saying for years Colbert is over rated ... he still is not a bum , but he is not top shelf either ...

Posted this last week as well somewhere here , I am not entirely certain if it is Colbert himself or his scouting department or a little bit of both but at the end of the day Colbert holds the responsibility for those scouts and himself alike thus its on him for either being ineffective or the department that he himself runs is ineffective and or understaffed ....

I am not calling for his head , but have called for changes and if those changes are not effective his head should be next ....

on the bright side , he is better than Matt Millen

NCSteeler
03-22-2013, 09:32 AM
For all the issues we have this ONE kills me. Like I've said before unless it comes out that Lewis did not want to be here, the front office piss poorly managed this deal.


This issue continues onto Ike Taylor vs. Keenan Lewis. I understand at the time that Ike Taylor needed to be signed by the Pittsburgh Steelers. The Steelers had at the time nobody proven or even drafted to replace Ike Taylor. However, just because you give someone a sports contract doesn't mean that you have to honor it until it's done. This is Football, contracts are always broken, that's why players request guaranteed money up front. They know that they could get cut. Ike Taylor is going to be 33 years old heading into 2013 coming off of an ankle injury that will no doubt cause him to lose a step and lose effectiveness. There's a history of players that age getting leg/feet injuries and never producing at the same level. Instead of cutting Ike Taylor and taking the cap money and giving it to Keenan Lewis who proved himself to be an up and coming capable CB at the age of 27 heading into 2013 (for almost half of what it costs to keep Ike Taylor), the Steelers allowed Lewis to walk. When Ike Taylor potentially performs like a washed up 33 year old next season that we are chomping at the bit to collectively replace in 2014, just remember that the Steelers had a younger option to replace him right now. Instead Kevin Colbert decided it was better for the Steelers in the present and future to continue holding on to Ike Taylor through his mid 30's until the Steelers draft a replacement and give them that 1-2 year "learn LeBeau's defense" period, that it was to replace Ike Taylor now when they had a player worthy of replacement in Keenan Lewis.

BlastFurnace
03-22-2013, 09:40 AM
Great Article! Thanks for posting. IMO, it's spot on.

Something to consider is what will this team do after this season when it comes to McClendon, Wordlis, Hood, Dwyer, Sanders, and other younger players.

As we all hope, these younger players should also see an increase in playing time and could drastically increase their value if they break out like Keenan Lewis did this year. I know it's a tall order, but what if McClendon nails down the NT spot. What if Wordlis gets 10+ sacks. If Woodley is healthy (I know that is a huge IF), and has a big year, it will be helped by Ziggy figuring it out at DE. I could see Dwyer getting 1200 yards.

If these things happen, and they very well might (I thought Keenan Lewis was a bum before last season, as I did Ike before the 2005 season), they might price their way off the Steelers roster if necessary steps to purge the roster of older players isn't done as this article states.

Mojouw
03-22-2013, 09:43 AM
Alternative to the original article posted, one could look at the fact that the Steelers kept a core together to make a run at multiple championships, that core aged and now they are rebuilding on the fly. They have potentially already totally rebuilt the offensive line on the fly. They may have rebuilt the defensive line as well. If they rebuild the linebackers and add a safety...not sure what the problem is.

Pristas
03-22-2013, 10:34 AM
Alternative to the original article posted, one could look at the fact that the Steelers kept a core together to make a run at multiple championships, that core aged and now they are rebuilding on the fly. They have potentially already totally rebuilt the offensive line on the fly. They may have rebuilt the defensive line as well. If they rebuild the linebackers and add a safety...not sure what the problem is.

Yes, I agree, and if you look at the individual player targeted by this article to make the argument, there is another side of the coin:

Mike Wallace: Wanted big money and was going to leave no matter what
James Harrison: Has always been a bit of a pain in the ass and now has seen too many day of being broken. His agent screwed him and now, being the prideful James, will probably play for some other team for Vet min.
Keenan Lewis: All I know is that he really wanted to play for his hometown team, the Saints, and that is where he is. He was good buddies with Wallace and was probably part of that "chasing the $$$ cancer in the locker room".
Larry Foote: Until someone outplays him, he's on this team for Vet min.
Brett Keisel: Still better than Ziggy Hood. Who targeted Hood in the draft anyway?
Ike Taylor: Comes into camp every season after getting absolutely ripped with Tom Shaw. Plays up to and above his contract.
Troy Polamalu: Is now a legit part of the above article. He is a legend to the game, but his time has now come I'm afraid.
Hampton: Still played because of cap reasons. They will take the chains off McClendon this season. (actually my uncle talked to Dick about this personally on a flight they had together)
Mendenhall: Pfffttt. Who cares? Good riddance.

Font line is in good shape. Ben should stay upright. New offense will be in gear this season. Defense was damn good last year and should be equally good this year. A solid draft and we are in business.

fansince'76
03-22-2013, 10:52 AM
Alternative to the original article posted, one could look at the fact that the Steelers kept a core together to make a run at multiple championships, that core aged and now they are rebuilding on the fly. They have potentially already totally rebuilt the offensive line on the fly. They may have rebuilt the defensive line as well. If they rebuild the linebackers and add a safety...not sure what the problem is.

This.

Dwinsgames
03-22-2013, 11:01 AM
Alternative to the original article posted, one could look at the fact that the Steelers kept a core together to make a run at multiple championships, that core aged and now they are rebuilding on the fly. They have potentially already totally rebuilt the offensive line on the fly. They may have rebuilt the defensive line as well. If they rebuild the linebackers and add a safety...not sure what the problem is.


keeping the core group together has never been my issue , the ability to target their eventual replacements in the draft and the replacement of the " replaceable parts " outside of that core with talent as good or better than what you are replacing ..... Has been

we have slowly but surely gotten older and older ( until the past 2 off seasons ) without having clearcut replacements for the guys who have departed that are at or close to the same talent level ( regardless of their draft position ) we have spent 2 first round picks on the D-line per example and those first rounders where not able to supplant or replace at the same level of play as 4th round pick Aaron Smith or 7th round Pick Keisel ..... that is a real problem from where I sit

fansince'76
03-22-2013, 11:07 AM
Ask the New England Patriots who've seen old guys go left and right over the past 6 years, their Defense take a hit, their Wide Receiving corps weakened, their Running Back situation an annual revolving door, yet they are Super Bowl contenders every season. They just offered 31 year old Wes Welker who has been one of the top Wide Receivers in the NFL for the last 5 years an insulting low balled $5 million per year contract. That was a contract offer to tell their fans "they tried" while their intent the entire time was to sign the younger 26 year old Danny Amendola for a tad over $6 million per year on a contract that runs out at the age of 31. It keeps the Patriots, younger, competitive and cost effective. Things you're not seeing the Pittsburgh Steelers do.


Enter the inevitable Patriots penis envy. Sure, and not winning a Super Bowl for almost a decade (which I'm sure would go over really well with this fanbase) including an almost guaranteed six autowins a year because of the rest of the sad sacks that populate the AFC East. We've had a four-year Super Bowl "drought" during that same time. We "competed" throughout the '90s too. I like winning SBs, of which we've won two since the "model franchise" won their last. I prefer winning SBs over "competing." I'm getting a little tired of the 20/20 hindsight from armchair blogger GMs because of a disappointing season.

Dwinsgames
03-22-2013, 11:14 AM
I'm getting a little tired of the 20/20 hindsight from armchair blogger GMs because of a disappointing season.


welcome to the internet and discussion boards , that is what Message boards do , they talk about events of the team and what they feel would have been better options ...

Pristas
03-22-2013, 11:47 AM
They have potentially already totally rebuilt the offensive line on the fly.

They won those championships despite those offense lines, not because of them.

fansince'76
03-22-2013, 11:53 AM
welcome to the internet and discussion boards , that is what Message boards do , they talk about events of the team and what they feel would have been better options ...

So you buy the premise that without Cowher, Colbert is completely clueless? That Cowher essentially scouted every single pick himself and called all the shots between 2000-06? Sorry, I don't, especially since there was never any love lost between Art II and Cowher, and Art II was essentially handed the reins by Dan all the way back in 2003. It was also Dan that stepped in in 2004 and insisted on the drafting of Roethlisberger. Thank God, otherwise we'd have wound up with another OT (Shawn Andrews), would've been stuck with the likes of Turnover Tommy and Brian St. Pierre for God knows how much longer and we'd STILL be working on ring #5.

My point was that this hatchet piece on Colbert doesn't even get written if Jacoby Jones doesn't return that punt for a TD. That was ultimately the difference between the now-SB champs not even making the postseason and us going in their stead. IMO, this blog piece is just another classic example of a Steelers fan over-romanticizing the Cowher era while conveniently forgetting about the 3 sub-.500 seasons and 4 non-playoff seasons between 1998-2003. Saw plenty of the same crap after the 2009 season too. Fancy that.

Mojouw
03-22-2013, 12:15 PM
They won those championships despite those offense lines, not because of them.

No argument on that point. But, assuming Starks is gone, Pouncey will be the only offensive linemen from any of the Super Bowl teams. Four totally new and arguably upgraded starters have been put in place while remaining a contending team...not too bad.

Pristas
03-22-2013, 12:36 PM
No argument on that point. But, assuming Starks is gone, Pouncey will be the only offensive linemen from any of the Super Bowl teams. Four totally new and arguably upgraded starters have been put in place while remaining a contending team...not too bad.


Agreed, not bad at all. We really could surprise the NFL this season. Young line, Big Ben, Brown, Sanders and Plaxico (not done yet by any means). Add a stout running back in the draft and the offense looks to be rocking. I don't know if anyone else here has read about the new o-line coach from the Chiefs, but he did a killer job in KC. Read and learn:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/3/20/4121236/steelers-running-game-offensive-line-breakdown-gifs-kansas-city-chiefs

I would not be surprised if we don't take one of the top two running backs in this draft. Unless the FO knows something we don't about Dwyer or Redman. Those guys are third down backs. We need an every down back like Mendenhall, except with better vision and no twitter account.

Defensively, we were at the top last season and that was while playing Hampton over McClendon, and leaving Cortez Allen off the field a lot. Worilds is our biggest question mark. Troy, if healthy probably has another great season left in the tank. Ryan Clark is the one that troubles me the most. He is our old school crushing hitter. He's the one offenses look out for. He will punish you. I don't see his replacement. Of course, he's not gone yet either.

Here's my draft picture by round:

1. Safety
2. Running Back
3. Linebacker
4. Linebacker/QB (depends who is there)/Defensive Lineman
5. Wide Receiver
6. Wide Receiver
6. Offensive Lineman (jack of all trades kind of guy)
7. Best available

The have to hit on rounds one and two. Anything else is gravy. If we come away from this draft with an acceptable replacement for Troy, and a Ray Rice type back, then we win the draft. If we take the best Guard in round one because he was the best player available who falls to us, then reach for a linebacker in round two, hello eighties.

Mojouw
03-22-2013, 12:37 PM
Here is another way at looking at the Keenan Lewis situation. I will try and hold it under 46 thousand words.

Keenan Lewis was drafted in the 3rd round of the 2009 draft. At the time it was thought his combination of size and speed would allow Lewis to develop into an ideal partner for Ike Taylor and provide the Steelers with a tall athletic cornerback tandem to deal with the mutant physical freaks that now dominate the WR position across the NFL. Despite his draft status and physical skills, Lewis was consistently unable to unseat veteran players such as Bryant McFadden or William Gay. In 2012 Lewis was finally named the starter opposite Taylor after barely holding off a serious training camp challenge from an emerging Cortez Allen. After some initial struggles, Lewis picked up his game and turned in a strong season in his contract year. He posted 23 passes defensed. However, while Lewis finally broke through in 2012 and demonstrated the ability to be a strong #2 corner and potentially a #1 corner, the major hole in his game was his lack of ball skills and/or interceptions. A deficit he is certainly not alone at in the Steelers defensive backfield.

In contrast, when pressed into major playing time due to late season injuries, Cortez Allen demonstrated that the raw skills the Steelers saw in the relatively inexperienced player from the Citadel, have begun to be polished. Allen demonstrated an ability to stay with his man in coverage and to make breaks on the ball, pulling in 2 INTS in only 3 starts.

In the offseason, the Steelers made the decision that Lewis' contract demands and the market rate of 5+ million dollars per year for a player entering his age 27 season with only one good set of games on tape in 4 years was a poor investment. Instead they decided to save the cap dollars and put their faith in the younger, cheaper, and potentially better player in Cortez Allen.


See when you put it that way...it doesn't really sound so bad does it?

Spike
03-22-2013, 01:22 PM
I'd rather keep Colbert and punt Mr I still have the stink of losing on me from KC Dink&Dunk Haley



I called Ben and he agrees

Dwinsgames
03-22-2013, 01:39 PM
So you buy the premise that without Cowher, Colbert is completely clueless? That Cowher essentially scouted every single pick himself and called all the shots between 2000-06? Sorry, I don't, especially since there was never any love lost between Art II and Cowher, and Art II was essentially handed the reins by Dan all the way back in 2003. It was also Dan that stepped in in 2004 and insisted on the drafting of Roethlisberger. Thank God, otherwise we'd have wound up with another OT (Shawn Andrews), would've been stuck with the likes of Turnover Tommy and Brian St. Pierre for God knows how much longer and we'd STILL be working on ring #5.

My point was that this hatchet piece on Colbert doesn't even get written if Jacoby Jones doesn't return that punt for a TD. That was ultimately the difference between the now-SB champs not even making the postseason and us going in their stead. IMO, this blog piece is just another classic example of a Steelers fan over-romanticizing the Cowher era while conveniently forgetting about the 3 sub-.500 seasons and 4 non-playoff seasons between 1998-2003. Saw plenty of the same crap after the 2009 season too. Fancy that.


is that what I said ?

Mojouw
03-22-2013, 01:51 PM
keeping the core group together has never been my issue , the ability to target their eventual replacements in the draft and the replacement of the " replaceable parts " outside of that core with talent as good or better than what you are replacing ..... Has been

we have slowly but surely gotten older and older ( until the past 2 off seasons ) without having clearcut replacements for the guys who have departed that are at or close to the same talent level ( regardless of their draft position ) we have spent 2 first round picks on the D-line per example and those first rounders where not able to supplant or replace at the same level of play as 4th round pick Aaron Smith or 7th round Pick Keisel ..... that is a real problem from where I sit

To be fair, Aaron Smith belongs in the Hall of Fame and was drafted in an era where 3-4 ends were not as valued. Same for Kiesel and he may still be one of the best 3-4 ends not named Justin Smith or JJ Watt in the league.

steelreserve
03-22-2013, 04:23 PM
I think they made a lot of smart moves keeping the key players on the team together; it got us to three Super Bowls. Where we messed up is finding replacements this time around.

We've actually done quite a bit of "rebuilding" during the current stretch; I mean, look at all the guys we replaced between our Super Bowl trips in 2005 and 2011. Porter, Haggans, Von Oelhoffen, Hope, Townsend, Foote/Farrior (whoever you say Timmons "replaced by then) ... Bettis and the entire receiving corps. We also turned over the entire offensive line with the exception of Starks, although we didn't replace most of those guys so much as struggle along.

Anyway. That's what I see going on. We did a good job repairing/replacing, and then lately missed on a few guys we were counting on, which got us over a barrel. I also think the fact that the 3-4 became the new leaguewide fad had a lot to do with that, leaving fewer of "our" types of players and making us force it in the draft.

ALLD
03-22-2013, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by Pristas
They won those championships despite those offense lines, not because of them.
No argument on that point. But, assuming Starks is gone, Pouncey will be the only offensive linemen from any of the Super Bowl teams. Four totally new and arguably upgraded starters have been put in place while remaining a contending team...not too bad.



What if we can get Gerry Mullins and Jon Kolb to suit up?

Shoes
03-22-2013, 07:33 PM
I say they are all overrated....Cowher, Tomlin and Colbert. The sports media keeps their *holiness* going. Just like politics.... I'm really starting to dislike football.

Spike
03-22-2013, 08:23 PM
I'm really starting to dislike football.

We'll make you a hockey fan yet, you'll see

GO Pens!

Shoes
03-22-2013, 09:01 PM
We'll make you a hockey fan yet, you'll see

GO Pens!

:chuckle:

zulater
03-23-2013, 11:15 AM
So you buy the premise that without Cowher, Colbert is completely clueless? That Cowher essentially scouted every single pick himself and called all the shots between 2000-06? Sorry, I don't, especially since there was never any love lost between Art II and Cowher, and Art II was essentially handed the reins by Dan all the way back in 2003. It was also Dan that stepped in in 2004 and insisted on the drafting of Roethlisberger. Thank God, otherwise we'd have wound up with another OT (Shawn Andrews), would've been stuck with the likes of Turnover Tommy and Brian St. Pierre for God knows how much longer and we'd STILL be working on ring #5.

My point was that this hatchet piece on Colbert doesn't even get written if Jacoby Jones doesn't return that punt for a TD. That was ultimately the difference between the now-SB champs not even making the postseason and us going in their stead. IMO, this blog piece is just another classic example of a Steelers fan over-romanticizing the Cowher era while conveniently forgetting about the 3 sub-.500 seasons and 4 non-playoff seasons between 1998-2003. Saw plenty of the same crap after the 2009 season too. Fancy that.

Great post!

The two biggest mistakes in Steelers history were cutting Unitas and not drafting Marino. Dan Rooney overriding Cowher on that draft day prevented the 3rd greatest mistake in Steeler history from occuring.

I'm still a strong believer in Kevin Colbert. I'm confident he'll get things where they need to be before too long.

fansince'76
03-23-2013, 02:08 PM
The two biggest mistakes in Steelers history were cutting Unitas and not drafting Marino. Dan Rooney overriding Cowher on that draft day prevented the 3rd greatest mistake in Steeler history from occuring.

I'd say passing on Jim Brown in the '57 draft (the Browns took him one pick later :doh:) to take Len Dawson and then ditching Dawson 2 years later was right up there too.

Texasteel
03-23-2013, 02:35 PM
I'd say passing on Jim Brown in the '57 draft (the Browns took him one pick later :doh:) to take Len Dawson and then ditching Dawson 2 years later was right up there too.

I read once that they were about to ditch Bradshaw, and the Chief pointed out the QB mistakes they had made it the past, and suggested that it not happen again.

X-Terminator
03-23-2013, 03:41 PM
I say they are all overrated....Cowher, Tomlin and Colbert. The sports media keeps their *holiness* going. Just like politics.... I'm really starting to dislike football.

You can certainly have that opinion, but those "overrated" guys are responsible for a lot of success over the past 20 years. Name me one franchise that wouldn't give their left nuts to have that kind of sustained success for that long.

Shoes
03-23-2013, 04:30 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe NE has had a better past 20 than us. Sure there has been success, but I get a feeling that they are beyond reproach....by the media and some fans. They get the praise when all goes well and when it doesn't the players become the fair game. Colbert and Tomlin share the same backscratcher. It will be interesting to see how the draft and training camp goes this year.

X-Terminator
03-23-2013, 05:37 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe NE has had a better past 20 than us. Sure there has been success, but I get a feeling that they are beyond reproach....by the media and some fans. They get the praise when all goes well and when it doesn't the players become the fair game. Colbert and Tomlin share the same backscratcher. It will be interesting to see how the draft and training camp goes this year.

Yes, they are the only ones in that conversation, with 5 Super Bowl appearances and 3 wins in that time frame, compared to the Steelers 4 and 2. But considering I hate all of Boston/New England and wish it would sink below the Atlantic Ocean, they don't count. At any rate, nobody says one word about Tomlin or Colbert if they made the playoffs last season, and let's face it - the success they've had has earned them plenty of rope. No different than any other successful coach/GM in any other sport. You may not like it, but that's the way it goes.

fansince'76
03-23-2013, 05:59 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe NE has had a better past 20 than us.

HIGHLY debatable, IMO. Since 1992:

Steelers: 214 wins, 121 losses, 1 tie, 14 postseason appearances.

Patriots: 210 wins, 126 losses, 15 postseason appearances.

Yeah, the Patriots have won one more SB in that time, but they also lost one more SB in that time too. The Steelers last won a Super Bowl 4 years ago. The Patriots haven't won one in 8. And they won their 3 under HIGHLY dubious circumstances that Goodell conveniently swept under the rug. Not to mention the Steelers have shared the AFC North with a fierce rival in the Ravens, while the Jets, Bills and Dolphins have spent the last decade+ being the Patriots' punching bag for the most part.

But since ESPN sucks them off 24/7 and makes them out to be the greatest fucking thing since sliced bread, people seem to think the Patriots tower over everyone else in the league. 'Tain't so.

Dwinsgames
03-23-2013, 06:08 PM
'Taint.

that single word sums it all up IMO

Shoes
03-23-2013, 06:40 PM
Yes, they are the only ones in that conversation, with 5 Super Bowl appearances and 3 wins in that time frame, compared to the Steelers 4 and 2. But considering I hate all of Boston/New England and wish it would sink below the Atlantic Ocean, they don't count. At any rate, nobody says one word about Tomlin or Colbert if they made the playoffs last season, and let's face it - the success they've had has earned them plenty of rope. No different than any other successful coach/GM in any other sport. You may not like it, but that's the way it goes.


Well, you only ask for one :chuckle: I think the cheats were in 6 SB the last 20 and are 3-3, but I may be wrong. Hopefully Tomlin & Colbert can keep from shortening the rope this season. By the way XT....I gave up chewing my finger nails long ago. :chuckle:

Shoes
03-23-2013, 06:45 PM
HIGHLY debatable, IMO. Since 1992:

Steelers: 214 wins, 121 losses, 1 tie, 14 postseason appearances.

Patriots: 210 wins, 126 losses, 15 postseason appearances.

Yeah, the Patriots have won one more SB in that time, but they also lost one more SB in that time too. The Steelers last won a Super Bowl 4 years ago. The Patriots haven't won one in 8. And they won their 3 under HIGHLY dubious circumstances that Goodell conveniently swept under the rug. Not to mention the Steelers have shared the AFC North with a fierce rival in the Ravens, while the Jets, Bills and Dolphins have spent the last decade+ being the Patriots' punching bag for the most part.

But since ESPN sucks them off 24/7 and makes them out to be the greatest fucking thing since sliced bread, people seem to think the Patriots tower over everyone else in the league. 'Tain't so.

Surely you don't think I'm going defend the cheats? :chuckle:

Spike
03-24-2013, 10:26 AM
Free Agency losers

“Winning” and “losing” free agency is a nebulous concept.

Most of the best-run organizations in football are famous for turning off their TVs and heading to the beach once March rolls around. Green Bay, Pittsburgh and Baltimore are more celebrated for the moves they don’t make than any other team is for the moves they do make.

4. Steelers/Ravens

Ravens’ Notable Additions: DT Chris Canty and DE Marcus Spears.

Ravens’ Notable Subtractions: WR Anquan Boldin, FS Ed Reed, SS Bernard Pollard, LB Paul Kruger, LB Dannell Ellerbe and CB Cary Williams.

Steelers’ Notable Additions: QB Bruce Gradkowski and TE Matt Spaeth.

Steelers’ Notable Subtractions: WR Mike Wallace, LB James Harrison, RB Rashard Mendenhall, CB Keenan Lewis, S Ryan Mundy and OG Willie Colon.


It’s already been mentioned once in this article: These two AFC North blood rivals are more famous for standing pat than standing tall in free agency.

But their sheer loss of talent this offseason is too hard to ignore. The Ravens have lost five defensive starters in 10 days. That’s hard to do, especially when they’re the same five who just won a Super Bowl ring.

Pittsburgh, meanwhile, has lost its top pass rusher and its top playmaker on offense. It’s true that Harrison is aging and Wallace is perhaps not all he’s cracked up to be, but that’s not how you rise up from only your first .500 season since 2006.

Both teams have odious cap situations to blame, and Pittsburgh has only compounded the problem by restructuring even more salary into their future caps. These are two teams who know what they’re doing, but never will their hard-earned reputations be more tested than they will be this offseason.

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/42847/309/free-agency-losers

BigNastyDefense
03-24-2013, 08:23 PM
Here is the way I look at it:

Cowher had a lot of say in players that were drafted and signed in free agency. He earned that right with the success he had in his coaching career. Colbert however has had major say in all of those transactions also. I would assume that he had "final say" (outside of Dan and Art II) on transactions, which is normally in the contract of all General Managers. However, he had a great working relationship with Cowher and always took his opinion of a player into consideration when making his choices, because in the end Cowher was the man coaching those players. I feel he has developed the same relationship with Mike Tomlin. The draft is a crapshoot. There are first round busts (Ryan Leaf) and sixth round Hall of Fame players (Tom Brady). Free agency is also a bit of a crap shoot, some players get their big pay day and stop working hard, or they're a product of a system and when they leave it they fail to produce at the expected level.

First rounders are expected to succeed. And I am sure that Cowher and Tomlin both have a lot of say in first round picks. However, remember that it was Dan Rooney that drafted Ben Roethlisberger...Cowher wanted an offensive lineman. In the end, they have had final say in EVERY decision and nobody knows how much they have directed some of the decisions that have been made by the Steelers front office.

However, lets look at some of the picks that have been made after the first round in the Colbert era. And if you think that Cowher/Tomlin made all these calls, watched all the tape, and interviewed all the scouts about these players...you're drinking some of the Colbert hate kool aid.

Antwaan Randle El (remember he was a college QB converted to a WR/KR/PR who was rather good at all three and a trick play threat who threw the pass in the big play in Super Bowl XL), Kendrell Bell (won DROY), Chris Hope (former starter), Larry Foote (former/current starter), Brett Keisel (current starter, one of the best 3-4 DE's ever IMHO, found in the seventh round), James Harrison (UDFA who ended up winning DPOY and made one of the biggest plays in Super Bowl history), Ike Taylor, Max Starks, Willie Parker (UDFA), LaMarr Woodley, Keenan Lewis, Mike Wallace, Emmanuel Sanders, Antonio Brown, Marcus Gilbert, Mike Adams

That's a lot of players that have been or are supposed to become big parts of the Steelers. That's how this team reloads, by finding the diamonds in the rough instead of signing free agents from other teams.

Did we lose Mike Wallace? Yes, and it was expected. Only the most optimistic of Steelers fans felt that he was coming back to Pittsburgh. He didn't want to be here any longer, and I feel the Steelers locked up the better receiver last offseason when they re-signed Antonio Brown.

Anything anyone says about Keenan Lewis is simply speculation. Nobody knows if the Steelers actually offered him a contract. Nobody knows if he even wanted to return to Pittsburgh. He grew up a Saints fan and obviously had a desire to play for his hometown team. Maybe he gave the Steelers a price and they chose to let him see if he can get that price elsewhere. Maybe he told the Steelers not to bother if they wouldn't give him at least a certain amount of money. But the Steelers have Cortez Allen and Curtis Brown waiting in the wings, and they've been getting coached by Carnell Lake the past few years...and I think the "Lake Effect" is going to be a big factor in one (or both) of them having big seasons. The Steelers didn't sign Willie Gay to be the starter across from Ike Taylor.

James Harrison is getting little if any interest in free agency. The Steelers know when to let a player go, and I think they chose right with the former DPOY. He's been hampered with knee and back injuries plus he's 35. And no, the Steelers aren't going to let him come crawling back for the league minimum.

The one player I don't see the Steelers cutting when they normally would is Troy Polamalu. Why? Because he's a legend. Because when he's healthy, he's a game changer. I don't think he's planning on playing past this current contract, and I think the Steelers will allow him to play it out. And if he can stay healthy, he's the best player on the defense.

Ike Taylor won't be cut this year. Why? Because even though he's coming off of an ankle injury, he's a leader. Maybe not with his words, but with his work ethic. He trains if Florida all offseason and comes to camp in excellent shape and totally ripped. More often than not he shuts down the opposing team's best receiver. If he comes back this season and age/injury catches up with him, then next offseason he could become a cap casualty. But I don't think the Steelers are ready to take that chance yet.

Colbert isn't perfect, but no GM is. But he's damn sure better than what Cleveland, Buffalo, Oakland, Jaguars, and lately Cardinals have had. So quit bitching, because hey....we could be the Cleveland Browns.

salamander
03-24-2013, 09:43 PM
Here is the way I look at it:

Cowher had a lot of say in players that were drafted and signed in free agency. He earned that right with the success he had in his coaching career. Colbert however has had major say in all of those transactions also. I would assume that he had "final say" (outside of Dan and Art II) on transactions, which is normally in the contract of all General Managers. However, he had a great working relationship with Cowher and always took his opinion of a player into consideration when making his choices, because in the end Cowher was the man coaching those players. I feel he has developed the same relationship with Mike Tomlin. The draft is a crapshoot. There are first round busts (Ryan Leaf) and sixth round Hall of Fame players (Tom Brady). Free agency is also a bit of a crap shoot, some players get their big pay day and stop working hard, or they're a product of a system and when they leave it they fail to produce at the expected level.

First rounders are expected to succeed. And I am sure that Cowher and Tomlin both have a lot of say in first round picks. However, remember that it was Dan Rooney that drafted Ben Roethlisberger...Cowher wanted an offensive lineman. In the end, they have had final say in EVERY decision and nobody knows how much they have directed some of the decisions that have been made by the Steelers front office.

However, lets look at some of the picks that have been made after the first round in the Colbert era. And if you think that Cowher/Tomlin made all these calls, watched all the tape, and interviewed all the scouts about these players...you're drinking some of the Colbert hate kool aid.

Antwaan Randle El (remember he was a college QB converted to a WR/KR/PR who was rather good at all three and a trick play threat who threw the pass in the big play in Super Bowl XL), Kendrell Bell (won DROY), Chris Hope (former starter), Larry Foote (former/current starter), Brett Keisel (current starter, one of the best 3-4 DE's ever IMHO, found in the seventh round), James Harrison (UDFA who ended up winning DPOY and made one of the biggest plays in Super Bowl history), Ike Taylor, Max Starks, Willie Parker (UDFA), LaMarr Woodley, Keenan Lewis, Mike Wallace, Emmanuel Sanders, Antonio Brown, Marcus Gilbert, Mike Adams

That's a lot of players that have been or are supposed to become big parts of the Steelers. That's how this team reloads, by finding the diamonds in the rough instead of signing free agents from other teams.

Did we lose Mike Wallace? Yes, and it was expected. Only the most optimistic of Steelers fans felt that he was coming back to Pittsburgh. He didn't want to be here any longer, and I feel the Steelers locked up the better receiver last offseason when they re-signed Antonio Brown.

Anything anyone says about Keenan Lewis is simply speculation. Nobody knows if the Steelers actually offered him a contract. Nobody knows if he even wanted to return to Pittsburgh. He grew up a Saints fan and obviously had a desire to play for his hometown team. Maybe he gave the Steelers a price and they chose to let him see if he can get that price elsewhere. Maybe he told the Steelers not to bother if they wouldn't give him at least a certain amount of money. But the Steelers have Cortez Allen and Curtis Brown waiting in the wings, and they've been getting coached by Carnell Lake the past few years...and I think the "Lake Effect" is going to be a big factor in one (or both) of them having big seasons. The Steelers didn't sign Willie Gay to be the starter across from Ike Taylor.

James Harrison is getting little if any interest in free agency. The Steelers know when to let a player go, and I think they chose right with the former DPOY. He's been hampered with knee and back injuries plus he's 35. And no, the Steelers aren't going to let him come crawling back for the league minimum.

The one player I don't see the Steelers cutting when they normally would is Troy Polamalu. Why? Because he's a legend. Because when he's healthy, he's a game changer. I don't think he's planning on playing past this current contract, and I think the Steelers will allow him to play it out. And if he can stay healthy, he's the best player on the defense.

Ike Taylor won't be cut this year. Why? Because even though he's coming off of an ankle injury, he's a leader. Maybe not with his words, but with his work ethic. He trains if Florida all offseason and comes to camp in excellent shape and totally ripped. More often than not he shuts down the opposing team's best receiver. If he comes back this season and age/injury catches up with him, then next offseason he could become a cap casualty. But I don't think the Steelers are ready to take that chance yet.

Colbert isn't perfect, but no GM is. But he's damn sure better than what Cleveland, Buffalo, Oakland, Jaguars, and lately Cardinals have had. So quit bitching, because hey....we could be the Cleveland Browns.

Very well said.

GBMelBlount
03-24-2013, 10:46 PM
Great thread.

It seems like prognosticating 2013 comes down to whether you think the glass is half empty or half full.

It could go either way but fact the that there are more question marks than usual is NOT a positive.

Just like the last 5 years if the O line gels and the injury gods smile we could have a great year imo.

...assuming the team has a heart this year.

blackngldblood
03-24-2013, 11:31 PM
I think their hearts will be forged in all the criticism. Baltimore is now very prideful and quite sure that they have overtaken us as the supreme beings in this division. Hell, all their fans think that their losses are nothing because of average Joe and whiny boy Harbaugh. This rivalry will heat up to what it was a few years ago, and the humbled Steelers have a lot to gain back. IMHO.

LLT
03-25-2013, 02:56 AM
Using Wes Welker as an example doesnt prove their arguement.....Sometimes talent doesnt outweigh the negative aspects of certain players, and it is well known that Wes Welker is one of the least fan friendly players in the NFL and an entightlement junkie. We seem to already have some problems with the team "jelling"....and it would take a HUGE personality (like Brady or Manning) to keep Welkers ego in check. We dont have that guy on our offence.

shutdown
03-25-2013, 04:15 PM
Cowher wouldn't have won a superbowl if the Steelers didn't draft a QB he didn't want.

BigNastyDefense
03-25-2013, 08:14 PM
Cowher wouldn't have won a superbowl if the Steelers didn't draft a QB he didn't want.

QFT. Cowher wasn't the best personnel man ever. He made some big mistakes. Does anyone remember Alonzo Jackson? That was a Cowher pick through and through. He was a total and complete bust of a pick.

Not trying to disparage Bill Cowher. I loved him as the head coach of the Steelers, but he wasn't perfect like some Steelers fans think he was.

Psycho Ward 86
03-29-2013, 04:12 PM
Colbert isn't perfect, but no GM is. But he's damn sure better than what Cleveland, Buffalo, Oakland, Jaguars, and lately Cardinals have had.

gosh, what a flattering compliment for colbert :)

TMC
03-30-2013, 12:05 AM
QFT. Cowher wasn't the best personnel man ever. He made some big mistakes. Does anyone remember Alonzo Jackson? That was a Cowher pick through and through. He was a total and complete bust of a pick.

Not trying to disparage Bill Cowher. I loved him as the head coach of the Steelers, but he wasn't perfect like some Steelers fans think he was.

Cowher actually did not want Jackson in the 2nd round.


He wanted him in the first. Colbert backed him off and said he would be there in the 2nd. They traded up and took Polamalu. What if they had went with Jackson in the first and Andrews over Roethlisberger. That is your best player on offense and your best player on defense NOT on the team.

Colbert has to listen to his coaches. He has to draft guys that fit the style they desire to play. Cowher's style was not a secret and had years of polish before Colbert got here. No so with Tomlin. Not only does Colbert have to evaluate the players, he also had to learn where Tomlin could spot talent and where he missed. Where he could take his word that a guy can play and where to think "he just does not know ILBs) and go with his gut. That takes a little time. You are also getting input from "The Bruce" and getting weapons instead of OL. Various issues at play.

The idea Colbert is in trouble is almost laughable. The Steelers have enjoyed a tremendous run while he has drafted.

Mojouw
03-30-2013, 11:31 AM
Cowher actually did not want Jackson in the 2nd round.


He wanted him in the first. Colbert backed him off and said he would be there in the 2nd. They traded up and took Polamalu. What if they had went with Jackson in the first and Andrews over Roethlisberger. That is your best player on offense and your best player on defense NOT on the team.

Colbert has to listen to his coaches. He has to draft guys that fit the style they desire to play. Cowher's style was not a secret and had years of polish before Colbert got here. No so with Tomlin. Not only does Colbert have to evaluate the players, he also had to learn where Tomlin could spot talent and where he missed. Where he could take his word that a guy can play and where to think "he just does not know ILBs) and go with his gut. That takes a little time. You are also getting input from "The Bruce" and getting weapons instead of OL. Various issues at play.

The idea Colbert is in trouble is almost laughable. The Steelers have enjoyed a tremendous run while he has drafted.

I believe Cowher drafted Alonzo Jackson because he "liked the look in his eye" or some such rah-rah nonsense.

Aussie_steeler
03-30-2013, 07:34 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/19068484/the-top-10-nfl-front-offices

I call BS on this story that Colbert is in trouble. Although the story above is over 12 months old it gives a more accurate picture of Colberts true value.

Two more wins last season (10-6) and suddenly the gallows become a pedestal for everyone in the organisation

If Colbert were to improve in one area, I would say it is in the area of loyalty to long tenured players. IMO name players have been kept 1 or 2 years too long into their last contracts. This has placed pressure on the salary cap.

Then again is loyalty such a bad thing.

BigNastyDefense
04-01-2013, 09:01 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/19068484/the-top-10-nfl-front-offices

I call BS on this story that Colbert is in trouble. Although the story above is over 12 months old it gives a more accurate picture of Colberts true value.

Two more wins last season (10-6) and suddenly the gallows become a pedestal for everyone in the organisation

If Colbert were to improve in one area, I would say it is in the area of loyalty to long tenured players. IMO name players have been kept 1 or 2 years too long into their last contracts. This has placed pressure on the salary cap.

Then again is loyalty such a bad thing.

The issue with that I don't think is so much loyalty as much as it is dead money. Teams would rather avoid a large amount of dead money on the cap, and if a player still has guaranteed money coming to them, it's sometimes thought of as better to have them on the team rather than somewhere else and taking up significant cap space.

I remember when the Steelers cut Joey Porter, he went to Miami and had a bad season with only 5.5 sacks. Steelers fans were lauding Colbert and Tomlin for letting a fan favorite go because they knew he couldn't get it done. Not to mention they knew what they had in James Harrison, and even drafted Timmons in case Harrison was just a flash-in-the-pan.

With our most recent OLB cut, James Harrison, I think they felt he could play at a high level last year even at his age because he didn't have the miles on him that other players that age normally do. They guessed wrong, but I don't think many can blame them for sticking with him, especially with there being no even semi-proven player behind him to take over.

I know we still don't have that player, but they might draft an outside linebacker in the first or second round to compete for that job.

Animal Mother
04-02-2013, 10:01 AM
This may be generalizing a bit, but the reason we were 8-8 last year was because Wallace couldn't catch the damn ball.

Jeez, in less than 10 years we've been to 3 SB's and won 2 of them and we are calling for Colbert's head? Please take a look around the league and realize how good we have it.

cold-hard-steel
04-04-2013, 01:11 PM
Noone builds up a gallows and take all the time in doing so , and then not use it . Waste of time and money imo. Off with his head !{ lol}