To the idiots who don't think Ben is elite.

[zulater]

How 'bout that Peyton Manning?

Look I love Peyton Manning, but let me tell you about the difference in our Ben and Peyton. Flash back to the 2010 AFC title game. The Steelers take possession of the ball nursing a 24-19 lead. 3.06 left on the clock.

Here's what they do.

1st and 10 at PIT 41 R.Mendenhall right tackle to PIT 42 for 1 yard (B.Pool, D.Revis).
Timeout #1 by NYJ at 02:50.
2nd and 9 at PIT 42 B.Roethlisberger pass short right to H.Miller to NYJ 44 for 14 yards (A.Cromartie).
Timeout #2 by NYJ at 02:43.
1st and 10 at NYJ 44 R.Mendenhall right tackle to NYJ 42 for 2 yards (J.Taylor).
Timeout #3 by NYJ at 02:38.
2nd and 8 at NYJ 42 R.Mendenhall right end to NYJ 40 for 2 yards (D.Harris, B.Thomas).
3rd and 6 at NYJ 40 (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass short right to A.Brown pushed ob at NYJ 26 for 14 yards (E.Smith).
1st and 10 at NYJ 26 B.Roethlisberger kneels to NYJ 27 for -1 yards.
2nd and 11 at NYJ 27 B.Roethlisberger kneels to NYJ 31 for -4 yards.
3rd and 15 at NYJ 31 B.Roethlisberger kneels to NYJ 32 for -1 yards.
End of Game

Of course there's morons who will point to Ben's overall stats for that game. To them I say fuck you. Go find another team, because clearly you don't understand the game and situational football.

In the clutch Ben came through and didn't allow the other team to get the mf'ing ball back!

So figure it out you douche bag assholes! We got an elite quarterback and if you're too fucking stupid to appreciate it, go to fucking hell!

Yeah I've been drinking tonight! :lol:

But still I'm sick of all the grief Ben gets. Learn to appreciate what you've got Steelers nation! And that I mean 110%.

[tube517]

B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but Peyton is so great.

[polamalubeast]

Manning is a better QB that Ben,but Ben is elite

Bad interception at the worst time possible can happen and it happened to Ben this year and Manning today.

This is always a horrible feeling to make a interception at the worst possible time, but unfortunately it can happen

- - - Updated - - -


B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but Peyton is so great.

He is great

if the broncos defense does not make a stupid mistakes at the end of the 4th quarter, the broncos win

[zulater]

Manning is a better QB that Ben,but Ben is elite

Bad interception at the worst time possible can happen and it happened to Ben this year and Manning today.

This is always a horrible feeling to make a interception at the worst possible time, but unfortunately it can happen

Where the Broncos lost the game was 3rd and 7 in regulation. Instead of giving their franchise qb the ball and giving him a chance to seal the deal with a completion, they play pussy and give the ball back to the Ravens with a chance to score. Which of course they did. Yeah that 40 seconds you took off the clock as opposed to the possibility of a clock stopping incompletion really worked out well! :sarcasm:

Play not to lose instead of playing to win and that's what you'll do every time.

At least when the Steelers were in that position they went for the jugglar and got the win.

Thanks Ben.And thanks Bruce Arians and Mike Tomlin for believing in Ben.

Show that film to Haley, and let him know what he's got.

[polamalubeast]

Where the Broncos lost the game was 3rd and 7 in regulation. Instead of giving their franchise qb the ball and giving him a chance to seal the deal with a completion, they play pussy and give the ball back to the Ravens with a chance to score. Which of course they did. Yeah that 40 seconds you took off the clock as opposed to the possibility of a clock stopping incompletion really worked out well! :sarcasm:

Play not to lose instead of playing to win and that's what you'll do every time.

At least when the Steelers were in that position they went for the jugglar and got the win.

Thanks Ben.And thanks Bruce Arians and Mike Tomlin for believing in Ben.

Show that film to Haley, and let him know what he's got.

Blame John Fox on this play.....Not Manning

[zulater]

Blame John Fox on this play.....Not Manning

Gotcha, and I agree. Like I said I like Peyton. But still give me a healthy Ben and with an equal team I'll take him in a game that matters more time's than not.

The trouble is the Steelers overall talent really hasn't been elite in some time now.

- - - Updated - - -

More than anything i just wanted to say fuck you to all the Ben haters out there because I'm pissed off about the Ravens winning. :chuckle:

- - - Updated - - -

By the way Aaron Rodgers is also proving that it's about more than just the quarterback right now.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I agree with Zulater. The play calling sucked. Denver didn't play to win.

[vader29]

I agree with Zulater. The play calling sucked. Denver didn't play to win.

Totally agree.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf04zlExM8c

[SteelerEmpire]

Wow. The Ravens played like the Steelers of 4+ yrs ago. They "found" a way to win.

[SteelMayhem72]

I totally agree!!

How 'bout that Peyton Manning?

Look I love Peyton Manning, but let me tell you about the difference in our Ben and Peyton. Flash back to the 2010 AFC title game. The Steelers take possession of the ball nursing a 24-19 lead. 3.06 left on the clock.

Here's what they do.

1st and 10 at PIT 41 R.Mendenhall right tackle to PIT 42 for 1 yard (B.Pool, D.Revis).
Timeout #1 by NYJ at 02:50.
2nd and 9 at PIT 42 B.Roethlisberger pass short right to H.Miller to NYJ 44 for 14 yards (A.Cromartie).
Timeout #2 by NYJ at 02:43.
1st and 10 at NYJ 44 R.Mendenhall right tackle to NYJ 42 for 2 yards (J.Taylor).
Timeout #3 by NYJ at 02:38.
2nd and 8 at NYJ 42 R.Mendenhall right end to NYJ 40 for 2 yards (D.Harris, B.Thomas).
3rd and 6 at NYJ 40 (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass short right to A.Brown pushed ob at NYJ 26 for 14 yards (E.Smith).
1st and 10 at NYJ 26 B.Roethlisberger kneels to NYJ 27 for -1 yards.
2nd and 11 at NYJ 27 B.Roethlisberger kneels to NYJ 31 for -4 yards.
3rd and 15 at NYJ 31 B.Roethlisberger kneels to NYJ 32 for -1 yards.
End of Game

Of course there's morons who will point to Ben's overall stats for that game. To them I say fuck you. Go find another team, because clearly you don't understand the game and situational football.

In the clutch Ben came through and didn't allow the other team to get the mf'ing ball back!

So figure it out you douche bag assholes! We got an elite quarterback and if you're too fucking stupid to appreciate it, go to fucking hell!

Yeah I've been drinking tonight! :lol:

But still I'm sick of all the grief Ben gets. Learn to appreciate what you've got Steelers nation! And that I mean 110%.

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Peyton is a choke artist in the playoffs...check the stats...Ben is better in the playoffs...hell look at brady in the playoffs! Manning is a stat king in the regular season!!

[stillers4me]

Peyton's little brother still has more rings than him.

[Shoes]

Blame John Fox on this play.....Not Manning

Not so, Manning call an audible on the 3 and 7 play.

At about the .42 second mark
http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/0ap2000000125537/Peyton-Manning-reflects-on-loss-vs-Ravens

[steelerdiva]

Peyton's little brother still has more rings than him.

Yup

[Psycho Ward 86]

uh, they're both still elite quarterbacks. this game had some whispers of upset written on it before it started: never underestimate the impact of ray lewis, especially when everyone knows its his last season, and never underestimate what a pussy peyton is in cold weather games :lol:

[GBMelBlount]

Define Elite.

Top 20%?.....probably.

[Steeldude]

B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but Peyton is so great.

You are correct. That goes without saying. Your sarcasm suggests you do not think he is a great

[SteelerEmpire]

B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but Peyton is so great.

Wow. Just realized. I guess we have to start saying that Flacco is an elite QB ???

[X-Terminator]

The only people questioning whether or not Ben is an elite QB are Steeler haters and spoiled rotten Steelers fans. Congratulations to the latter for being associated with the former. Most fans with brains know he is one of the best in the business.

[fansince'76]

Ben was the difference between an 8-8 season and a 2-14 season in 2012, period, end of story. For all the praise the defense gets, the last time it was anywhere near as good as advertised was in 2008. And I don't really think I need to mention the running game, do I?

I dread the day he retires.

[43Hitman]

The only people questioning whether or not Ben is an elite QB are Steeler haters and spoiled rotten Steelers fans. Congratulations to the latter for being associated with the former. Most fans with brains know he is one of the best in the business.


Ben was the difference between an 8-8 season and a 2-14 season in 2012, period, end of story. For all the praise the defense gets, the last time it was anywhere near as good as advertised was in 2008. And I don't really think I need to mention the running game, do I?

I dread the day he retires.


:amen:

[Crow-Magnon]

Wow. Just realized. I guess we have to start saying that Flacco is an elite QB ???

Although I do not think you are going to hear that except from the most rabid Ravens fan, the truth is, he's been an NFL QB for five years, started his first game as a rookie, and has wins in the post-season in all five years and is now going to his third AFC Championship. Maybe he will never be considered "elite", and he isn't a pretty QB like Manning, Brady or Rodgers, or a guy who can elude rushers while getting hit like Roethlisberger, but he is a tough quarterback who has taken a lot of shots, never missed a snap in five years and is a proven winner.

But yesterday's game should have been won by Denver had they made that last first down they needed. And after that, it was inexcusable to get beat deep when you know you have been getting beat deep all day long. Bad coaching decisions by Fox there.

[GBMelBlount]

For all the praise the defense gets, the last time it was anywhere near as good as advertised was in 2008. And I don't really think I need to mention the running game, do I?



So a defense that was 1st in the entire nfl in yards given up, 3rd in the nfl in 3rd down conversion % and 6th in points this year is not elite?

Perhaps Ben isn't the only thing being taken for granted. :chuckle:

[Shoes]

Although I do not think you are going to hear that except from the most rabid Ravens fan, the truth is, he's been an NFL QB for five years, started his first game as a rookie, and has wins in the post-season in all five years and is now going to his third AFC Championship. Maybe he will never be considered "elite", and he isn't a pretty QB like Manning, Brady or Rodgers, or a guy who can elude rushers while getting hit like Roethlisberger, but he is a tough quarterback who has taken a lot of shots, never missed a snap in five years and is a proven winner.

But yesterday's game should have been won by Denver had they made that last first down they needed. And after that, it was inexcusable to get beat deep when you know you have been getting beat deep all day long. Bad coaching decisions by Fox there.

Why are folks blaming Fox when wonder boy Manning called an audible on the 3 and 7 play?

[steel striker]

Like Fs76 said it will be a sad day when Ben calls it quits beacuse, is a tremendous talent at qb and, hell yeah he is elite. As far as Peyton goes his playoff record speaks for it self. I did not understand some of the Denver play calling because they were trying to play safe in that fourth quater and, it cost them. Credit the ravens and, Flacco for making some huge plays in the passing game. Back to Manning i said last week that I have always though of him as a dome qb and, yesterday proved that to me. They never even looked deep almost all short passes. That also was the first time I have seen Manning throw across his body looked more like Farve.

[Psycho Ward 86]

most playoff losses in nfl history?






























peyton manning and brett favre tied at 11 :lol:

[zulater]

[/B]

Why are folks blaming Fox when wonder boy Manning called an audible on the 3 and 7 play?

When Peyton Manning is your qb you can't blame the OC for the play calling. Peyton has full control when he's on that field, and whether it was called on the sidelines or not, Peyton has the ability to audible out of a play if he sees an opportunity to exploit the defense in another way.

[NCSteeler]

So a defense that was 1st in the entire nfl in yards given up, 3rd in the nfl in 3rd down conversion % and 6th in points this year is not elite?

Perhaps Ben isn't the only thing being taken for granted. :chuckle:

Could you possibly imagine how good they would have been if they got to play with a lead. Look there is no comparing Ben to the Defense, they have both been great and at times throwing last minute INTs or giving up long game ending drives. And they have both been talked bad about and taken for granted.

[ALLD]

Broncos got robbed in the first half which kept the Ravens in the game. Broncos then made a few mistakes and the Ravens capitalized on them. If the Ravens had to play from two or three TDs back in the second half, Denver could have easily blown them out and put it away five minutes into the third quarter.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Ben was the difference between an 8-8 season and a 2-14 season in 2012, period, end of story. For all the praise the defense gets, the last time it was anywhere near as good as advertised was in 2008. And I don't really think I need to mention the running game, do I?

I dread the day he retires.

Yes, 100% agree. I don't want to re-live those Cliff Stoudt, Mark Malone, etc. years.

[GBMelBlount]

Could you possibly imagine how good they would have been if they got to play with a lead.

Look there is no comparing Ben to the Defense, they have both been great and at times throwing last minute INTs or giving up long game ending drives. And they have both been talked bad about and taken for granted.

THIS is what has been so frustrating to me I guess NC.

Year after year our offense is very mediocre.

In fact, it would not surprise me if our team scoring vs. the league average has not improved more than 1 or 2 points per game since Ben has been our QB.

Not a hater and not saying this is all on Ben. Just an observation.

[fansince'76]

THIS is what has been so frustrating to me I guess NC.

Year after year our offense is very mediocre.

In fact, it would not surprise me if our team scoring vs. the league average has not improved more than 1 or 2 points per game since Ben has been our QB.

Not a hater and not saying this is all on Ben. Just an observation.

Cowher's tenure here was marked by a number of dominant defenses, a FAR better running game and a FAR better OL than Ben has generally had the luxury of playing with since he's been here, yet those teams never won squat. In fact, it was usually poor QB play that did those teams in over and over and over again. So please forgive my frustration with those who continue to marginalize Ben's importance to this team because he doesn't score them enough fantasy points.

[Mojouw]

So the Steelers ranks in points each year of Ben's tenure (per pro football reference):

2004: 11th
2005: 9th
2006: 12th
2007: 9th
2008: 20th
2009: 12th
2010: 12th
2011: 21st
2012: 22nd

So that is 9 seasons and 6 out of the 9 have been at least 4 spots over league average (16/32). Not sure what that may or may not mean...

[steeldawg]

whether he is considered elite or not is irrelevant since there is no set criteria for being elite, it simply a matter of opinion. What i can say is elite or not there is no qb i would rather have under center for the Steelers.

[Mojouw]

So more random stats that may help in providing some facts and numbers in arguing about "elite" or not. Side note, when the heck dd it get difficult to determine who is a better than average QB? It used to be an effortless discussion...I blame fantasy stats skewing general perceptions...

Game Winning Drives (all-time) -- http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm (keeping some good company here)

Yards per attempt (all-time) -- http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_yds_per_att_career.htm (clearly not dinking and dunking)

Pass Completion % (active) -- http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_cmp_perc_active.htm (looks elite to me)
Pass Completion % (all-time) -- http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_cmp_perc_career.htm (again...not too shabby)

Sacked (active) -- http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_sacked_active.htm (gets hit more than almost any of his peers...we can argue about whose fault that is, but the bottom line is that he clearly has played behind leakier offensive lines than much of the company he keeps on other more positive lists)

Touchdowns (active) -- http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_td_active.htm (Only ten less than Eli and in the ballpark with some good players)

Yards (active) -- http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_yds_active.htm (see below to see how impressive this actually is. Ben throws less than most others on this list.)

Attempts (active) -- http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_att_active.htm (Included this because it demonstrates that Ben ranks high on the other lists above with 700 or so less attempts than Eli (his closest peer in performance that has played an identical # of years in the league. Basically Eli has accumulated his stats with approximately another season and half of attempts than Ben has.)


Bottom line is that the #'s don't lie. By almost any measure, Ben is amongst the top 10 Qb's in the league today and is building a career that may prove to rank favorably with some of the all-time greats at the position. Basically Ben throws less than the other "elite" guys in the league, gets sacked waaaaay more but approximates their raw production. In a sense he is doing the same or perhaps more with less than others whose value is never questioned.

Does he throw too many picks for my liking (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_int_active.htm)? Yup. Does he take too many hits and sacks by holding the ball too long? No doubt. However, does he throw deeper in general and more often than almost any other QB in the league? Yes. So what are we left with? A Qb who ranks favorably with the best at the position on less attempts because he throws deeper than most. The negative side of that is that it leads to picks and sacks. So live by the sword die by the sword....

[st33lersguy]

Ben steps up at critical times and makes plays no one else does. Also he is one of only a few that have multiple Super Bowl rings as a starting QB which only a slim few elite have. Would you rather have Tony Homo or Phyllis Rivers, who choke away big game after big game?

[GBMelBlount]

Cowher's tenure here was marked by a number of dominant defenses, a FAR better running game and a FAR better OL than Ben has generally had the luxury of playing with since he's been here

Steelers Running game

Average yards per carry

1990 - 1999 4.1
2000 - 2003 4.1
2004 - 2012 4.1

[Psycho Ward 86]

Steelers Running game

Average yards per carry

1990 - 1999 4.1
2000 - 2003 4.1
2004 - 2012 4.1

that says so little

[GBMelBlount]

that says so little

Just stating facts.

Feel free to splain it away all you want. :chuckle:

[X-Terminator]

THIS is what has been so frustrating to me I guess NC.

Year after year our offense is very mediocre.

In fact, it would not surprise me if our team scoring vs. the league average has not improved more than 1 or 2 points per game since Ben has been our QB.

Not a hater and not saying this is all on Ben. Just an observation.

There are a large number of factors as to why the offense hasn't been effective, the main one being ineffectiveness in the red zone and not scoring enough TDs. Part of that is playcalling, part of it is their inability to run the ball effectively once they get to the 20, which forces Ben to have to make plays in tight areas. He did a better job at that this season due to Haley's passing scheme, but still, not being able to run the ball in the red zone hurt them this season, as it has in previous seasons.

[GBMelBlount]

There are a large number of factors as to why the offense hasn't been effective, the main one being ineffectiveness in the red zone and not scoring enough TDs. Part of that is playcalling, part of it is their inability to run the ball effectively once they get to the 20, which forces Ben to have to make plays in tight areas. He did a better job at that this season due to Haley's passing scheme, but still, not being able to run the ball in the red zone hurt them this season, as it has in previous seasons.

I agree with all of your points XT, but it seems like a lot of people blame EVERYTHING BUT Ben.

In fact, another interesting stat I ran is that 2000-2003 our scoring was about 20.5 ppg...which is about .3 points under the 2003 nfl average of 20.8 ppg

Ben's 9 year scoring average of 22.6 is STILL less than this years nfl average of 22.8.

I guess my point is EVERY year we seem to have something to blame for our teams extremely mediocre scoring and red zone performance even though the ONE thing that has been a constant the last 9 years is that Ben has been our quarterback.

Not an indictment, just sayin...

It frustrates the heck out of me.

[X-Terminator]

I agree with all of your points XT, but it seems like a lot of people blame EVERYTHING BUT Ben.

In fact, another interesting stat I ran is that 2000-2003 our scoring was about 20.5 ppg...which is about .3 points under the 2003 nfl average of 20.8 ppg

Ben's 9 year scoring average of 22.6 is STILL less than this years nfl average of 22.8.

I guess my point is EVERY year we seem to have something to blame for our teams extremely mediocre scoring and red zone performance even though the ONE thing that has been a constant the last 9 years is that Ben has been our quarterback.

Not an indictment, just sayin...

It frustrates the heck out of me.

No, many of those fans simply refuse to put it ALL on him, like those dopes who actually want the Steelers to get rid of him. I hope they all get their wish, and the Steelers go back to throwing garbage behind center year after year and go another 26 years between Super Bowl wins. They don't appreciate him AT ALL. It seems to me that's what you want to do, and I'm sorry, but that is short-sighted and extremely unfair.

The offense as a whole shares in the mediocrity, and that includes Ben. His decision-making at times is lacking, and that obviously leads to problems. But I still believe that not being able to run effectively in the red zone is the biggest reason why they do not score at a higher rate. Being a threat to run gives the offense so many more options that simply aren't there when everyone and their brother knows you're going to throw more often than not.

[GBMelBlount]

No, many of those fans simply refuse to put it ALL on him, like those dopes who actually want the Steelers to get rid of him. I hope they all get their wish, and the Steelers go back to throwing garbage behind center year after year and go another 26 years between Super Bowl wins. They don't appreciate him AT ALL. It seems to me that's what you want to do, and I'm sorry, but that is short-sighted and extremely unfair.


I really don't think many people put it all on Ben..but when he seems to get a lot of the credit when we win it is fair to be critical when we lose.

I guess what I don't understand is why our defense has always been better than our offense.

WHY?

Either we haven't been drafting well on offense (for decades), we haven't been coaching well or we don't have elite QB's.

[fansince'76]

I guess what I don't understand is why our defense has always been better than our offense.

WHY?

This is why (http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/3233531-74/million-cap-steelers#axzz2HuAplGYB).

[Edman]

Ben is a good QB, the best the Steelers have had since ever.

But he's not elite. He is who he is, and that's fine. He seems fine with it, and so am I. I'm just not going to pretend he's something he isn't.

Ben fans will gladly throw mischaracterizations at those who don't think likewise. If I had a dime for every time I've been called a "Yinzer" and "Spoiled Brat Steeler Fan" or a variation of any of those phrases for merely stating the truth and refusing to make excuses for Ben's mediocrity.

[fansince'76]

Ben is a good QB, the best the Steelers have had since ever.

But he's just not elite. I'm sorry that offends you. He is who he is, and that's fine. I'm just not going to pretend he's something he isn't.

But I suppose "Mr. October" Manning is...

[zulater]

Ben is a good QB, the best the Steelers have had since ever.

But he's just not elite. I'm sorry that offends you. He is who he is, and that's fine. I'm just not going to pretend he's something he isn't.

Pretend all you like that he's not. But he is. Give the guy an o-line and real running back and anyone not convinced will soon be swayed. Look what he did in his first two years.

Since then we've been below average at running back and on the o-line.

One of these years we'll put it together on the offensive line and look out.

- - - Updated - - -


But I suppose "Mr. October" Manning is...

Well he doesn't think Terry Bradshaw was elite either so... :lol:

[X-Terminator]

This is why (http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/3233531-74/million-cap-steelers#axzz2HuAplGYB).

Yeah, that too. Elite offenses cost money. Elite defenses also cost money. The salary cap prevents teams from having both, and given how the organization and the fans feel about defense, it only makes sense that they would put more money into the defense. You want a better offense? Then you'd better be willing to sacrifice a bit on the other side of the ball.


Ben is a good QB, the best the Steelers have had since ever.

But he's just not elite. I'm sorry that offends you. He is who he is, and that's fine. I'm just not going to pretend he's something he isn't.

He's put up a lot of elite numbers in his career. In fact, I put up an entire post pointing out those elite numbers when compared to the other "elite" QBs in the league. Not only that, he has won in the postseason, more than some supposed "elite" QBs. He belongs in the conversation based off that alone. But if you want to downplay that, that's fine. He's just a bit better than an Alex Smith.

[st33lersguy]

No, many of those fans simply refuse to put it ALL on him, like those dopes who actually want the Steelers to get rid of him. I hope they all get their wish, and the Steelers go back to throwing garbage behind center year after year and go another 26 years between Super Bowl wins. They don't appreciate him AT ALL. It seems to me that's what you want to do, and I'm sorry, but that is short-sighted and extremely unfair.


^This. It's not everyday you get a playmaking QB, a leader on offense, and a true playmaking QB, in fact it is pretty rare. The Steelers spent 2 decades searching for a franchise QB who could win Super Bowls and win in the clutch. Plus more than half the NFL teams are searching for a franchise QB right now, many of which have not had one in decades. Steelers fans need to appreciate him because they will if the next few starting QBs following Ben's retirement are garbage and have short stints as starters.

[Edman]

Pretend all you like that he's not. But he is. Give the guy an o-line and real running back and anyone not convinced will soon be swayed. Look what he did in his first two years.

His first two years the Steelers were a respected running team, but Ben hated that. He hated Whisenhunt. So Whis took off and along came Arians. The Steelers shifted from run-first to pass-first. Fooling around with this 'Ben is Elite' joke.

Since then we've been below average at running back and on the o-line.

Because the Steelers were too busy trying to make Ben happy instead of doing what was best for the team and the offense. Arians came in and he and Ben hit it off, but the Offense proceeded to drop off a cliff when it came to situational football. The Run game has been all but phased out under Arians, and Haley was left desperately trying to resurrect it again.

One of these years we'll put it together on the offensive line and look out.

You could put Ben behind a line consisting of Jon Ogden, John Hannah, Mike Webster, Gene Upshaw, and Anthony Munoz in their primes and they would still suck.

Ben's O-Line is terrible because he makes it terrible with his over reliance on his improvising. The O-Line will continue to play like crap until Ben plays smarter.

2012 proved it. When Ben played smarter as a QB, the O-Line play improved as a result. Philadelphia Game. The Eagles Pride & Joy Pass Rush couldn't lay a single finger on Ben. Why? Because he was patient, methodical and played smart. It wasn't until he defaulted back to his hold-the-ball-forever mode where the O-Line started to look like shit again.

[zulater]

Pretend all you like that he's not. But he is. Give the guy an o-line and real running back and anyone not convinced will soon be swayed. Look what he did in his first two years.

His first two years the Steelers were a respected running team, but Ben hated that. He hated Whisenhunt. So Whis took off and along came Arians. The Steelers shifted from run-first to pass-first. Fooling around with this 'Ben is Elite' joke.

Since then we've been below average at running back and on the o-line.

Because the Steelers were too busy trying to make Ben happy instead of doing what was best for the team and the offense. Arians came in and he and Ben hit it off, but the Offense proceeded to drop off a cliff when it came to situational football. The Run game has been phased out.

One of these years we'll put it together on the offensive line and look out.

You could put Ben behind a line consisting of Jon Ogden, John Hannah, Mike Webster, Gene Upshaw in their primes and they would still suck.

Ben's O-Line is terrible because he makes it terrible with his over reliance on his improvising. The O-Line will continue to play like crap until Ben plays smarter.

2012 proved it. When Ben played smarter as a QB, the O-Line play improved as a result. It wasn't until he defaulted back to his hold-the-ball-forever mode where the O-Line started to look like shit again.

The line Ben was "playing smarter" behind wasn't nearly the same one he came back to after his injury. I guess you missed that though! :doh:

[st33lersguy]

Pretend all you like that he's not. But he is. Give the guy an o-line and real running back and anyone not convinced will soon be swayed. Look what he did in his first two years.

His first two years the Steelers were a respected running team, but Ben hated that. He hated Whisenhunt. So Whis took off and along came Arians. The Steelers shifted from run-first to pass-first. Fooling around with this 'Ben is Elite' joke.

Since then we've been below average at running back and on the o-line.

Because the Steelers were too busy trying to make Ben happy instead of doing what was best for the team and the offense. Arians came in and he and Ben hit it off, but the Offense proceeded to drop off a cliff when it came to situational football. The Run game has been all but phased out under Arians, and Haley was left desperately trying to resurrect it again.

One of these years we'll put it together on the offensive line and look out.

You could put Ben behind a line consisting of Jon Ogden, John Hannah, Mike Webster, Gene Upshaw, and Anthony Munoz in their primes and they would still suck.

Ben's O-Line is terrible because he makes it terrible with his over reliance on his improvising. The O-Line will continue to play like crap until Ben plays smarter.

2012 proved it. When Ben played smarter as a QB, the O-Line play improved as a result. Philadelphia Game. The Eagles Pride & Joy Pass Rush couldn't lay a single finger on Ben. Why? Because he was patient, methodical and played smart. It wasn't until he defaulted back to his hold-the-ball-forever mode where the O-Line started to look like shit again.

I guess everything is Ben's fault. It's Ben's fault that guys like Darnell Stapleton, Sean Mahan, Justin Hartwig, Jonathan Scott, among others couldn't block anything that was in front of them. Yes Ben holds onto the ball longer than most but a lot of times, he doesn't have time and he has to BUY TIME, which he does often and makes plays. Ryan Fitzpatrick doesn't rely on improvisation, neither does Carson Palmer, or how about Brandon Weeden? Would you rather have those guys and other QBs of that caliber who don't rely on improvisation instead?

[Dwinsgames]

Yes, 100% agree. I don't want to re-live those Cliff Stoudt, Mark Malone, etc. years.


and I still can not get Kent Graham and his concrete feet out of my nightmares

[X-Terminator]

2012 proved it. When Ben played smarter as a QB, the O-Line play improved as a result. Philadelphia Game. The Eagles Pride & Joy Pass Rush couldn't lay a single finger on Ben. Why? Because he was patient, methodical and played smart. It wasn't until he defaulted back to his hold-the-ball-forever mode where the O-Line started to look like shit again.

Yeah, let's see...

Ben's line pre-injury: Starks LT, Foster LG, Pouncey C, Colon RG, Adams RT (who took over for Gilbert after his injury). Not only more talented, but played better as a unit, and the running game was at its best when they were together.

Ben's line post-injury: Starks LT, Foster LG, Pouncey C, Colon/DeCastro RG, Beachum RT. Not as talented, running game really struggled with Beachum playing RT, Ben faced a lot more pressure from the right side of the line (again, because of Beachum and a green DeCastro after Colon's injury).

But sure, let's just blame it all on Ben, because after all, he sucks, has never done anything and doesn't deserve to be in the same conversation as the best in the game (despite having the stats that shows he does deserve it). Let's trade him for Jake Locker instead.

[Count Steeler]

"Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you got till it's gone" "They paved Paradise and put up a parking lot"

[GBMelBlount]

This is why (http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/3233531-74/million-cap-steelers#axzz2HuAplGYB).

Great point.

I have never seen a breakdown by team of spending on offense vs. defense.

Do you think we invest less in Ben's weapons and protection than other top shelf QB's teams.

[zulater]

. We all know our receiver core had a subpar season. But watching the playoffs it even comes more into focus. I think the Falcon receivers made about 6 catches yesterday that Ben could never have counted on from his group over a month's worth of games, let alone a single game.

[Mojouw]

So basically the argument against why Ben is "elite" or "not elite" is that the running game is no good? How the heck does that even begin to take away from the play of the QB? If anything it should be an additional point in his favor. This idea that Ben and Arians were so buddy/buddy and that is why Whisenhunt was run out of town and why Arians called the plays he called is just myopic crap. Arians called his offense that way because it took advantage of his two biggest assets, an elite talent at QB and a fleet of WR's that is fast and dangerous in the open field. Arians ran almost the EXACT SAME offense in Indianapolis this year. I guess he is already way too friendly with Luck. Luck will likely fail to develop until Indy fires Arians and brings a coach in to challenge Luck. If a dominant running game is all that a team needed to get good QB play then why does Christian Ponder suck so bad? Why is Gabbert awful? Why can Matt Cassel not move the ball? The NFL is now a pass-first league and any team that doesn't identify, develop, and build an offense around a highly skilled QB has zero chance of winning a championship. Why the heck does anyone think Harbaugh benched Alex Smith for Kaepernick?

Apologies for the rant, but I have yet to see anyone post any facts or data directly related to QB play that indicate how or why Ben is less than one of the 10 best QB's in the league right now. It seems any point against him is related to a gut instinct that he holds the ball too long, resorts to sandlot football, and some sort of pining away for a return to the old days of AFC Central football and a 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense. I admit that this offense has struggled to score the ball in the redzone and that is why Arians got fired. But that is not necessarily the QB's fault all the time. This is likely an issue that no amount of debate will change anyone's mind. I know that I am in no hurry to go back to the rotating crap that was the QB position for so many years prior to Ben. Malone, Brister, Odonnell, Stewart, Miller, Grahamn, Maddox, Tee Martin, and I know I am forgetting a few...

[X-Terminator]

I'm right there with you, Mojouw. Ben is so underappreciated by Steelers fans it's not even funny. Here's a post of mine from 2 weeks ago that pretty much establishes Ben as nothing less than one of the best in the business:


In fact, here's how Ben's career numbers stack up against the best QBs in the league:

Yards per attempt (Y/A)

1. Aaron Rodgers 8.1
2. Ben Roethlisberger 7.9
3. Peyton Manning 7.6
4. Tom Brady 7.5
4. Drew Brees 7.5
6. Eli Manning 7.1

Adjusted yards per attempt (Total yards +20 * TD - 45 * INT) / (Pass Attempts)

1. Aaron Rodgers 8.6
2. Ben Roethlisberger 7.7​
2. Tom Brady 7.7
4. Peyton Manning 7.5
5. Drew Brees 7.3
6. Eli Manning 6.6

Yards per completion (Y/C)

1. Ben Roethlisberger 12.6
2. Aaron Rodgers 12.4
3. Eli Manning 12.1
4. Tom Brady 11.8
5. Peyton Manning 11.7
6. Drew Brees 11.4

Obviously, he gets blown away by P. Manning, Brady and Brees in terms of TD passes (he would be 5th on this list - even Eli has thrown more TD passes than Ben and is only ahead of Rodgers because he's been a starter longer). But these stats show that he is clearly on par with the best in the game when it comes to getting the ball downfield. All of these stats, BTW, can be found at pro-football-reference.com.

I'd love to see anyone downplay or dispute those numbers.

[zulater]

I'm right there with you, Mojouw. Ben is so underappreciated by Steelers fans it's not even funny. Here's a post of mine from 2 weeks ago that pretty much establishes Ben as nothing less than one of the best in the business:



I'd love to see anyone downplay or dispute those numbers.

He's nothing but a mistake prone game manager. :chuckle:

:wink02:

[Mojouw]

I'm right there with you, Mojouw. Ben is so underappreciated by Steelers fans it's not even funny. Here's a post of mine from 2 weeks ago that pretty much establishes Ben as nothing less than one of the best in the business:



I'd love to see anyone downplay or dispute those numbers.

You just can't dispute any of the numbers. They paint a very clear picture of what kind of QB Ben is. He throws less often than his peers (I posted earlier that he has 700 less career attempts than Manning and only 200 more than Rivers), he throws far deeper than most other QB's (heck one can argue that Rodgers' YPA is inflated by the ridiculous YAC that his wideouts get -- but that is not fair to the obvious talent that Rodgers has.), and is more accurate than a lot of other QB's. On the flip side, he takes a ton of sacks and hits, and throws some picks (see his pass int % at Pro Football reference -- 18th out of the 30 or 40 so active guys ranked). So basically he is not a cerebral QB (Manning, Brady, etc) he is more of a "gunslinger" (Favre, Elway, etc).

Finally for those who argue that Ben is not the reason for the offensive success look at this stat: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_td_perc_active.htm -- that sure looks like an elite list to me!

[X-Terminator]

You just can't dispute any of the numbers. They paint a very clear picture of what kind of QB Ben is. He throws less often than his peers (I posted earlier that he has 700 less career attempts than Manning and only 200 more than Rivers), he throws far deeper than most other QB's (heck one can argue that Rodgers' YPA is inflated by the ridiculous YAC that his wideouts get -- but that is not fair to the obvious talent that Rodgers has.), and is more accurate than a lot of other QB's. On the flip side, he takes a ton of sacks and hits, and throws some picks (see his pass int % at Pro Football reference -- 18th out of the 30 or 40 so active guys ranked). So basically he is not a cerebral QB (Manning, Brady, etc) he is more of a "gunslinger" (Favre, Elway, etc).

Finally for those who argue that Ben is not the reason for the offensive success look at this stat: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_td_perc_active.htm -- that sure looks like an elite list to me!

I knew he had one of the higher pass TD% out there, but I didn't think to include that in my list above. Good catch, and yet another stat that clearly shows just how good Ben is. Your description is spot on - no, he is not a "cerebral" QB, and he never will be. He's a gunslinger, a QB who likes to get the ball downfield and make big plays. That is why he was resistant to change - he hates dinking and dunking his way down the field. Nothing wrong with that mentality - it's what made Elway and Favre current and future HOFers. This is also why the Steelers need a stronger running game, because it opens up opportunities to make big plays downfield with playaction.

[Craic]

Cowher's tenure here was marked by a number of dominant defenses, a FAR better running game and a FAR better OL than Ben has generally had the luxury of playing with since he's been here, yet those teams never won squat. In fact, it was usually poor QB play that did those teams in over and over and over again. So please forgive my frustration with those who continue to marginalize Ben's importance to this team because he doesn't score them enough fantasy points.

This. This this this.

Is Ben "elite?" I've gotten to the point where I say "who cares." If other people's opinions matter that much, then let's set it up like the BCS. Otherwise, we have a QB that works with this team. 2 SB wins and 3 appearances matter so much more than being "elite."

[silver & black]

Is Ben elite? As long as you win more games than you lose, does it matter? I think it's safe to say that Ben is among the best QB's in the league. Isn't that good enough?

[Craic]

Is Ben elite? As long as you win more games than you lose, does it matter? I think it's safe to say that Ben is among the best QB's in the league. Isn't that good enough?

No, even though we have six Lombardies, 8 AFC championships, and numerous AFCC/AFCN championships, we still seem to have quite the inferiority complex.

[Dwinsgames]

Is Ben elite? As long as you win more games than you lose, does it matter? I think it's safe to say that Ben is among the best QB's in the league. Isn't that good enough?


is for me ... the word ELITE is so freaking subjective anyways ....

I hate discussion on stuff like this because there is never a clear cut answer and nobody can agree on the parameters used to designate one as such ....

some say the amount of titles is the crowning Jewel and biggest contributor to the argument to them I say well then I guess Dan Marino was average and Trent Dilfer was Elite ( excuse me ??? )

some say it is baseline stats such as TD/INT ratio ... other claim completion percentage others say win / loss record some say a combination of the prior 3 things or all of it ...

problem is 1 stat or another does not define the QB neither does Lombardi's ... winning football games is a team sport 1 guy can only take you so far ....

Give me a guy who is accurate , throws a good deep ball , has a brain , has some mobility can put some touch on the ball when need be is that Elite ??? who cares !!

Then surround that guy with quality football players on both sides of the ball ( none of them have to be the best at what they do but all above average NFL guys ) and sprinkle that group with a few stars ...

and I like my chances for the QB to be called Elite whether he is or is not if you take the other things away ....

[DarthSpartans20]

My definition of an elite QB is simply one who gets it done year after year.

Ben is 4th ALL-TIME in career winning percentage .690 behind Staubach, Brady, and Montana
Ben is 7th in active passer rating with a robust 92.7
Ben is 4th in active career game-winning drives with 29. Brees, Brady, and Manning lead that list. And mind you Ben has 6 fewer years than Manning, 4 fewer than Brady, and three fewer years than Brees.
Ben has 3 Super Bowl appearances. By comparison, the elite list of NFL QB's Manning has 2, Brady has 5, Brees has 1, Rodgers has 1, little Manning has 2.
Ben is 3rd among active career playoff win % and 2nd in playoff wins.


What more can the guy do to get his name mention among the top tier of QB's??

[Craic]

My definition of an elite QB is simply one who gets it done year after year.

Ben is 4th ALL-TIME in career winning percentage .690 behind Staubach, Brady, and Montana
Ben is 7th in active passer rating with a robust 92.7
Ben is 4th in active career game-winning drives with 29. Brees, Brady, and Manning lead that list. And mind you Ben has 6 fewer years than Manning, 4 fewer than Brady, and three fewer years than Brees.
Ben has 3 Super Bowl appearances. By comparison, the elite list of NFL QB's Manning has 2, Brady has 5, Brees has 1, Rodgers has 1, little Manning has 2.
Ben is 3rd among active career playoff win % and 2nd in playoff wins.


What more can the guy do to get his name mention among the top tier of QB's??

That's actually an argument against him being "elite." By definition, "elite" is a very small subset of any group. How many active "elite" QB's can you have before they stop being a group of elite, and just become a large group of very good QBs? Elite, IMO, is the top two or three percent of QB's, or QB's that year after year, score an A or A+ in season performances. Would you give Ben an A or A+ over the last two or three years, going year by year?

[Mojouw]

That's actually an argument against him being "elite." By definition, "elite" is a very small subset of any group. How many active "elite" QB's can you have before they stop being a group of elite, and just become a large group of very good QBs? Elite, IMO, is the top two or three percent of QB's, or QB's that year after year, score an A or A+ in season performances. Would you give Ben an A or A+ over the last two or three years, going year by year?

I would. Other than not winning the Super Bowl and getting hurt, what are the specific points against the guy?

Also 7 guys out of a set of 32 is 22% and 3% is less than one...but no matter...other than Brady, Manning, and Rodgers, who is better? Younger Manning -- not by much if at all. Rivers -- please. Romo -- next. Brees -- sure. Any of the young guys -- do it a couple years in a row first. Ryan -- no way. So that puts Ben at 6 out of 32 at worst in an unprecedented passing age for the NFL...I will take that any day of the week.

The argument against Ben needs to be backed by more than some sort of arbitrary sense that he should be scoring more points or win more games. The only realistic comparison(s) we have are those set by his peers, the other starting NFL quarterbacks currently playing. By any standard he compares favorably. That is my only point. As was well said by another poster, who can even agree what elite means? All I know is that by any reasonable metric I can find, Ben is among the 5-10 best QB's playing today.

[DarthSpartans20]

That's actually an argument against him being "elite." By definition, "elite" is a very small subset of any group. How many active "elite" QB's can you have before they stop being a group of elite, and just become a large group of very good QBs? Elite, IMO, is the top two or three percent of QB's, or QB's that year after year, score an A or A+ in season performances. Would you give Ben an A or A+ over the last two or three years, going year by year?

That shows that his numbers rank among those whom many critics and fans call elite. He is 10th ALL-TIME in a stat which until a few years was the end all be all for quarterback rankings(Now its QBR). And you combine that with his winning %, the three Super Bowl appearances in 8 years, and amount of wins he has compliled, why isnt he considered among the elite??

[Craic]

Why isn't Ben amongst the elite?

Because I DO think Elite should be defined as a very small top of the class by which there's no real difference between players. In that class, I'd put P. Manning and Rodgers. I've said it before, I can't put Brady in there because of the cheating. It flattened his learning curve to such a degree that he did not have to deal with the normal issues of being a QB.

The class under them? Ben is smack in the middle of it, if not leading it. As it stands there's two things that I think is holding him back from moving up into the truly "elite" category with Manning and Rodgers. The first is the deep ball. I thought he fixed it a couple years ago, but it looks like he's reverted back a bit. The second is that lately, he's lost his fourth quarter magic a bit. I hope he gets it back soon, and don't doubt that he can, but he's just not playing at that top level game in and game out for seasons on end. Not like Manning, or Marino, or Montana did.

Hey, maybe that's the problem? Ben's last name doesn't start with "M" :chuckle:

[X-Terminator]

No, even though we have six Lombardies, 8 AFC championships, and numerous AFCC/AFCN championships, we still seem to have quite the inferiority complex.

Pointing out that Ben does not get the credit he deserves - not even from his own team's fans - for how good he is and has been in his career is not having an "inferiority complex."

[Count Steeler]

It's going to be a long off season.

[Craic]

Pointing out that Ben does not get the credit he deserves - not even from his own team's fans - for how good he is and has been in his career is not having an "inferiority complex."

In response to this post -

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by silver & black http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php?p=354219#post354219)

Is Ben elite? As long as you win more games than you lose, does it matter? I think it's safe to say that Ben is among the best QB's in the league. Isn't that good enough?
That's not what I was saying X-term. I was saying that no, it doesn't matter to us that he wins more games than he loses, and that it's not good enough for us to say that he's among the best QBs in the league. We have some type of inferiority complex that we have to argue every element into the ground, including whether he's "elite" or just "very good."

(EDIT: took a long time to load the page on hitting send, and then gave me the text without the images - just an FYI).

[GBMelBlount]

Why isn't Ben amongst the elite?

Because I DO think Elite should be defined as a very small top of the class.

All things considered I think most would agree Ben is arguably 5 or 6.

So it really just comes down to each persons definition of elite.

If it is top 2 or 3, then Ben probably is not in that category.

Top 5 or 6, then he probably is.

[fansince'76]

All things considered I think most would agree Ben is arguably 5 or 6.

So it really just comes down to each persons definition of elite.

If it is top 2 or 3, then Ben probably is not in that category.

Top 5 or 6, then he probably is.

Personally, I think the "elite" tag is an overused and tired definition that's been beaten to death by fantasy football nerds. I don't recall it ever being used to describe a player/team before 2007/08.

[Craic]

All things considered I think most would agree Ben is arguably 5 or 6.

So it really just comes down to each persons definition of elite.

If it is top 2 or 3, then Ben probably is not in that category.

Top 5 or 6, then he probably is.

Exactly.


Personally, I think the "elite" tag is an overused and tired definition that's been beaten to death by fantasy football nerds. I don't recall it ever being used to describe a player/team before 2007/08.

True - though I think it was used somewhat before that (though I may be projecting). IMO, it comes along with the ESPN "Who's the Best" type crap.

[zulater]

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/22/sig-stats-snapshot-passing-under-pressure/

For any of you that are currently proclaiming Flacco as Big Ben's superior look at this chart and compare how they pass under durress. Also keep in mind this isn't reflective of Ben prior to his injury.

Put this guy on the Steelers with no Ray Rice and you wouldn't win 5 games.

[st33lersguy]

Put Flacco on a team like the Bills and he'd be considered a bust.

- - - Updated - - -


https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/22/sig-stats-snapshot-passing-under-pressure/

For any of you that are currently proclaiming Flacco as Big Ben's superior look at this chart and compare how they pass under durress. Also keep in mind this isn't reflective of Ben prior to his injury.

Put this guy on the Steelers with no Ray Rice and you wouldn't win 5 games.

We all saw the 2010 divisional game when Flacco was constantly harassed, he looked worse than a stack of dung and threw away the game. Heck, 2011 divisional game against the Texans, faced constant pressure, would have single-handedly lost the game were it not for the Texans QB. Of course next week he got NO pressure looked great and apparently "had arrived"

[Psycho Ward 86]

In response to this post -
That's not what I was saying X-term. I was saying that no, it doesn't matter to us that he wins more games than he loses, and that it's not good enough for us to say that he's among the best QBs in the league. We have some type of inferiority complex that we have to argue every element into the ground, including whether he's "elite" or just "very good."

(EDIT: took a long time to load the page on hitting send, and then gave me the text without the images - just an FYI).

And the funniest part is, steeler fans treated ben in the complete opposite manner for the longest time. We always use to argue with other fans that he's a great QB because of things like being clutch, throwing well under pressure, etc. while fans of other teams would discount his successes to his defense, run game, etc. Now all of the above is somehow a reason why he's inferior? smh

[Craic]

And the funniest part is, steeler fans treated ben in the complete opposite manner for the longest time. We always use to argue with other fans that he's a great QB because of things like being clutch, throwing well under pressure, etc. while fans of other teams would discount his successes to his defense, run game, etc. Now all of the above is somehow a reason why he's inferior? smh

Not sure what your statement and mine have to do with each other. Did you mean to quote me?

[Psycho Ward 86]

Not sure what your statement and mine have to do with each other. Did you mean to quote me?

i was referring to the whole inferiority complex, running every element into the ground stuff